Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1600



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Elvis in Traveller
And now, a Traveller trivia question:
Poor Mr. Berry, revisited (was Grandfather Elvis)
Bouny Hunters
RE: schools and mustering out in T4.1
RE: Bounty Hunting
RE: Major/Minor Races and Airbus
Fusion Efficiency
RE: Calendars and simultaneity
Re: Another reason not to do business with the Martian Consulate
Re: Refueling and fusion power
Re: IG's (Non)Attendance at Conventions
Funny RPG anecdote...
Re: Jump Fuel
Re: Planning for Traveller Design
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: A little ride
Trav Lang ML
Re: Noble Lands
Re: A Question of Culture
THUDDD distribution channels
THUDDD 5 Ballot

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:01:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Elvis in Traveller

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>
>You all know there's a real, yes, "real", church of Elvis in the US,
>don't you?  Its in Nashville I think and started up about 4-5 years
>ago.  Its actual name is something like "First Presbyterian Presly
>Memorial Church" or something like that.  I kid you not.  Before it

Let's not forget the Twenty-Four Hour Coin-Operated Church of Elvis in
Portland, Oregon.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:16:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: And now, a Traveller trivia question:

>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:12:50 -0700
>From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>Subject: Psioncs Trivia (Was Re: Psionic Institutes)

>And now, a Traveller trivia question:
>Which race dabbled with psionics _without_ Zhodani assistance?
>A hint - this race has made at least one major contribution to the
>background setting of Traveller.
>
>Let's see if anyone can ID this race, state the source and proof of
>the dabbling, and ID one of the major contributions.
>It's a toughie, I'll admit.

The Droyne more than dabbled in psionics long before the Zhodani. 
Sources are rampant in the canon -- start with the Droyne Alien Module. 
Probably the most important contribution of the Droyne to the Traveller
background is the dissemination of humans around known space.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:28:19 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Poor Mr. Berry, revisited (was Grandfather Elvis)

>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
>Subject: Grandfather Elvis

>Suddenly, it all becomes clear.  The history of known space, past and
>future, is encoded in the lyrics of Elvis (abbreviated Hebrew-Latin for
>"Hound Dog" - Clear documentation of the creation of the Vargr ("nothin'
>"Heartbreak Hotel" - Consider that merely by changing "baby" to "babies"
>perfectly and evocatively describes the aftermath of the Final War, with
>"Viva Las Vegas" - Yaskodray's well-known penchant for planetary
>There is more, much more...just what ancient artifact is "Blue Suede

I recall, when we were discussing the relationship between the Cthulhu
Mythos and the Traveller Canon, that I posted something about how some
investigators dig too deep and become unbalanced by their researches,
and how our Mr. Berry looked to be travelling on that path.  To my
everlasting regret, it appears that I was right all along.  

- --Glenn

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:55:41 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Bouny Hunters

> From: John_Wood@cbtsys.com
>
> I have been thinking about starting a campaign in which the players are
> bounty hunters (agents). Given the maxim that the imperium rules the space
> between the stars and not the member worlds, do people think there will be
> a niche for bounty hunters fulfilling imperial arrest warrants by hunting
> down fugitives taking refuge on member worlds? 

No -- but there will be niche for bounty hunters to execute warrants
issued by other member worlds, to collect classic bounties ("Wanted Dead
or Alive:  Cr25,000 Reward") issued by member worlds, and to hunt down
people sought by persons or entities who lack authority to issue
warrants, but can afford to pay for a kidnapping.  

The Imperium doesn't have very many laws and won't have very many arrest
warrants.  Those few will be executed by Imperial officers, who are
authorized to seize fugitives on member states, pursuant to the member
state's treaty with the Imperium.  Fugitives who travel outside the
Imperium can be pursued by Imperial forces, but the Imperium might find
it cost effective sometimes to hire local bounty hunters.

> What sort of treaties and
> legal constraints do you think will exist to address this area of law
> enforcement/arrest evasion. 

The member states of the Imperium have treaties with each other
regarding extradition.  The member states have treaties with the
Imperium that allow the Imperium to pursue fugitives from Imperial law
on the member state, and the Imperium probably pledges not to interfere
with the legitimate extradition of fugitives back to the member state,
as long as the peace of the realm is not seriously threatened.  

The Imperium doesn't allow member states to have their own "foreign
relations", i.e., relations with non-Imperial powers, so the Imperium
itself has treaties with non-Imperial worlds and empires regarding
extradition.  

> And what do you see as the role of the Imperial
> ministry of justice in all of this - do they license bounty hunters, or
> issue arrest warrants for certain crimes that empower its agents to venture
> outside the extrality fence into member worlds jurisdiction? 

The MoJ bureaucracy is not so bloated as to be licensing bounty
hunters.  The MoJ might do the actual drafting of Imperial warrants, but
they would be issued by an Imperial Court (part of the judicial branch,
not the executive).  MoJ agents would already be empowered to pursue
fugitives into member states.  The member state would have to grant that
authority to the Imperium as a cost of membership.  

> Will there be
> an analogue of the FBI or Interpol in the imperium? I'd appreciate any
> thoughts you all may have and any references you can provide for material
> on this subject.

The MoJ will certainly have a counter-intelligence/security/anti-crime
department that will be in charge of collecting and disseminating
information.   

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:27:06 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: schools and mustering out in T4.1

On Thursday, 24 July 1997 09:14, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
[SMTP:aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk] wrote:
> Do schools count as terms served for the purposes of m/o?

I agree with you and say no to schools but yes to Academies counting
towards Mustering out Benefits.  You tend to get benefits enough from
Schools and colleges etc...

Brody Dunn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:36:36 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Bounty Hunting

I would expect Bounty Hunters to require some degree of official
recognition.  I do not thiunk that the Imperium would use bounty hunters
on an official level (some nobles might hire one, however) but the the
Imperium would tend to use the Imperial Forces to capture miscreants
that are fleeing from them.

Member worlds would use bounty hunters to project influence but these
guys (and gals) would have very little legal protection on a different
world that the one that issued the bounty.  Perhaps if he hasn't
actually broken the law of that world (excluding any that would affect
the hunted, such as battery and assult - most of the hunted wouldn't
want to be caught and some resistance is expected after all) i.e.
Beating the hunted is OK (sort of) but bombing a cafe to stun him is
not.  Any action that causes colateral effect is illegal.

The above only applies to Member world sponsored Bounties.  Anyone else
can put out a bounty but this bounty has no more legal standing than
individual worlds allow.
Some member worlds may not allow any captured individual to leave while
others give approved bounty hunter similar powers to the police.

Variety is the spice of life.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:45:23 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Major/Minor Races and Airbus

> > (I just saw the (Wings?) show on 'glass cockpits'. One segment has
footage of the Airbus that crashed at the Paris Airshow some years back
because the plane wouldn't let the pilot pull the nose up out of the
trees)

I thought that one was so low it sucked in a tree or some such and the
computer compensated by reduceing power in the other engine and
basically just sunk into the ground because there was insufficent power
to fly and the pilot trying to pull up would have stalled.

In fact I though that crash was a prime example of how fly by wire is
safer (the plane didn't blow up of anything) and the crash was
remarkable gentle.

Of course, this is extremely old memories and I could be imagining it
completely.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:50:00 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Fusion Efficiency

  As this is my first post here, I don't know if this has been asked
before...

What is the % of efficiency of  a fusion power plants, and do they use a
deuterium + deuterium reaction?

I come up with 95.57%  efficiency, converting the energy from a
deuterium + deuterium reaction

        []  at 100%, 7kg deuterium -20% for maintaining the reaction
~4.1245E+14 Joules

        []  at 95.57%, 7kg deuterium (-20%)  ~3.1536E+14 Joules which
divided by 1 year
            and 1million watts per MW gives 10 MW. (Watts = Joules per
Second.  31,536,000
            seconds in a 365 day year)

I read in The Standard Ship Design System (beta) that 1.0m^3 of fuel has
a mass of 0.007 metric tonnes (or 7 kg).  That is where I got the 7kg of
deuterium.  Does this seem about right?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:01:35 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Calendars and simultaneity

On Friday, 18 July 1997 15:26, CardSharks@aol.com
[SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com] wrote:
> So, if Baron Dinsha dies on 098-198 on Sylea and his wife dies on
098-198 on
> Darkhamaar many many parsecs away, isn't it important for the probate
court
> to know who died first (even by a second) in order to determine
inheritance?

And So the wheels of Noble affair turn slowly.  And the phrase "I ages
five years while waiting fot the wills to come out of probate" comes
into being :)

> If the Imperial proclamation giving Baron Dinsha authority to do
something is
> promulgated on 098-198 (I'm in a rut here) and he does something
within that
> authority after that date, is it legal even if he hasn't received the
> evidence of his authority (and he doesn't know he has that authority
yet)?

It should be!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:33:17 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Another reason not to do business with the Martian Consulate

Moin Mark Urbin,

> To make matters worse, they are using Spamford Wallace's Cyberpromo.

	the solution is simple "Compressed SMTP mail bombing" ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:32:17 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Refueling and fusion power

Moin RFXn,

> 	I've interpreted the massive fuel requirements so that most of the 
> "fuel" required by fusion reactors are not hydrogen, but liquid 
> nitrogen, argon, etc. used as coolant, which needs to be replenished 
> annually. Very little of actual fuel (deuterium) is needed.

	I dont think that Traveller PP need deuterium, but I think
	that they burn LHy using the C-N-O katalysator chain.

	Evidence : 

	- Your fuel is LHy (as canon ;-)
	- If its impure your PP can explode (to much C or N)

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:46:59 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: IG's (Non)Attendance at Conventions

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

> But Essen would be a good optin to consider in Germany (Biggest Games 
> Show in the World..)

	have you ever been there, it's nearly as horrorfull as
	Frankfurt Bookfair or CBit.

	BTW Bookfair : IG should realy contact WDS and FanPro so
	that they have T4 material and promo stuff. Frankfurt
	Bookfair is the MOST important place for international
	booksellers.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:33:11 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Funny RPG anecdote...

	Was talking to one of the guys I work with today, who's been GM'ing
AD&D since the dark ages.  Had the following utterly demented story to tell
me from a game he played in:

	One of the players missed three sessions, so the GM killed his
character.  However, one of the other PCs, who had a Reincarnation spell,
used it.  The die was rolled, and the character was reincarnated as... a
parrot.  Everyone thought that the player would simply give up and do up
another character, but he said "No, I'll play the parrot!".

	There was also a paladin in the party.  One night, the parrot, who
had ventriloquism skill or some such (don't ask me I'm only relaying the
story) wakes up the paladin saying:

	"Pssst!  Paladin!  This is God!"

	The guy playing the paladin rolls his eyes; the GM makes him make
an intelligence roll... which he blows completely, totally, and utterly.
The GM tells him that he believes everything he hears.  The parrot
continues:

	"Paladin!  The parrot is my Emissary!  Protect the parrot AT ALL
COSTS!"

	For the rest of the campaign, the paladins fiercely defended the
parrot, carried the parrot around, waited on the parrot hand and foot...

	Makes me glad that I'm not playing D&D, but boy was that funny.  I
was chuckling all day over that one.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:11:54 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Jump Fuel

Moin William F. Hostman,

> Under TNE, however, with it's 1stere per year fuel requirements for
> scoutship PP's, such fuel useage indicates far TOO much energy if all JFuel
> is burned in a PP like system, so it has to be used for something else.

	My interpretation of Jump-Space and Jump-Fuel ist :

	- If a ship is far away enough from gravity, the jump drive
	  creates an event horizon around the ship.
	- This event horizon is then visible like a black hole tunneling
	  in Jump-Space for about a week, until it hits the next gravity.
	- From the outside this jump bubble is now only single point size,
	  from the inside its filled with the ship and surrounded by a bubble
	  of photons creating a "temporary pocket univers".
	  You need these photon to extend space inside the jump bubble,
	  that the ship will not collapse under its own gravity. The deeper
	  I wanna push the bubble into jump space, the more energy I need
	  to hinder the bubble to become a real black hole.
	- When this jump bubble hits gravity the photons tunnel though
	  the event horizon and the jump bubble collapses. This is visible
	  with human eyes even on bright day's, and looks like a far star
	  is burning nova for some minutes.
	  This dos no harm to the ship, as from the inside the first
	  photons are one light week away when tunneling out. And any
	  energy is directed away from the center.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:48:33 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Planning for Traveller Design

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes: 

>I am writing all of this because it took me awhile to reach an
>understanding about why a few were so adamant about the notion of past
>published evidence for a high tech level RoM.  It was (at first) a little
>shocking to see the lengths which some would go to try and hush me up on
>this subject.  I seldom encountered this on the HIWG list, but they are a
>group of budding writers after all, and are always trying to figure new
>angles on things.

   People strongly disagreed with your position, but no one here was
trying to "hush you up".  They *did* become very impatient, and I can't
say that I blame them.  You made certain assertions and then didn't back
them up, at least not until significantly later.

>When you are thinking about writing for the Traveller universe, there
>is a rather cumbersome burden you might feel, about doing it right.

   As I have pointed out in the past.

>That is why I have been so vocal about how I see just _how_ compatible the 
>guys doing T4 stuff are.  They have done a good job of backward 
>compatibility and should be commended for it.

   Should we lavish gifts on them for spelling 'Imperium' correctly? 
Really, the evidence does not back up this statement.

   It has come to the point, with me at least, where I am beginning
think in terms of *two* seperate games when I talk about the primary
subject of this mailing list.  One game is 'Traveller', a game produced
by GDW which has a common storyline and three different sets of game
mechanics (CT/MT/TNE) that take its common universe up to the Imperial
year 1202.  The other is 'Marc Miller's Traveller', a game produced by
IG that uses many common story and mechanical elements from 'Traveller',
but is sufficently different so as to constitute a *seperate* game. 
Just as 'Traveller: 2300' was not 'Traveller', neither is 'Marc Miller's
Traveller'.  While we have become accustom to calling 'Marc Miller's
Traveller' "T4", that designation is a rather unfortunate one, because
it increases the expectations older players have to levels that IG seems
unable to comply with.

   The alternative to thinking of 'Marc Miller's Traveller' as a
seperate game is continued frustration as it becomes increasingly
difficult (nay impossible) to reconcile everything under the 'Traveller'
name.

>In the earliest days, many people contributed to the development of the
>Traveller Universe.  Ideas on background and technology surfaced and were
>rewritten in different forms one or two supplements later.  Referee's had
>to be quick on their feet, but it was good for the collective thinking
>behind a consistent universe.  The creative ferment was thick with rich
>ideas and worlds to conquer.  This time, now, is the same for T4.

   Reinventing the wheel may work if you are Dilbert's boss, but it only
causes anxiety, frustration and even anger for the rest of us.  Over 90
percent of the storyline bugs had been worked out in Traveller when GDW
closed its doors for the last time (the Regency Sourcebook and other
later publications were of valuable assistance in that regard).  Now,
new ones have developed as a result of T4.

>For that slipup Harold, I do apologize.  It was only intended as a joke 
>and somehow that colon didn't make it into the final version.

   Apology accepted.

>Recently, a friend wrote me concerning what had transpired on TML about the
>RoM TL discussion.  He was concerned that I was "canonizing" a high tech
>for the RoM.  The Tech Level of the RoM has already been decided.  I am just
>helping people to see a possible interpretation of the track record for the
>facts that support this current, and in my opinion correct, background
>revelation.  Many of you may have already established a precedence in your
>campaigns for a lower tech level RoM.  The stuff referee's are made of is
>explaining to players how the universe has changed, but not in so many words,
>and not letting them know there was a change--just a change in _their_
>perceptions.  If we do not allow a new writer (not necessarily me) to come
>along, and fill in some holes, we are condemning our game to stagnation.

   You make an excellent case here for treating 'Marc Miller's
Traveller' as a unique game with its own seperate storyline, apart from
the rest of Traveller.  Doing so makes the whole canon debate about the
RoM's tech level moot.  Writers will no longer be tied down by what
Supplement 9 says, or what "Solomani and Aslan" says.  They would be
free to do whatever they want in explaining how their Third Imperium
came into being.  

   Certainly you and others who believe in Relativism with regard to the
canon storyline would be able to comment here in peace.  That's a major
bonus right there.  :-)

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:04:33 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

Hi Bruce,

> Most apparent FTL paradoxes are like this - like phase speeds, or
> Anders' lighthouse, or the EPR paradox; there are relatively straightforward 
proofs that you can never use the EPR "action at a distance" to transmit 
information - you can only notice the correlations when you compare the 
results from both ends after the fact.
> 
> Bruce

I am unaware of this aspect of the research.  In fact, I do not remember
the article that I read mentioning this particular reliance on 
interference effects (I read it over a year ago and wasn't able to keep
a copy).  I do remember that the most important aspect of the research
was that photons tunneling through mass barriers negotiated the entire
length of the barriers instantaneously. 

The FTL aspect is relative to the length of the material tunneled
through,
much like jump dirve "speed" depends on the length of jump.  Do you have
a more recent description of the experiment?  If it did depend on
phase interference effects then you and Anders are quite correct,
and I must apologize, as it may indeed have no more value than a 
curiosity of mathematics.

The article I read, however, seemed to indicate that the effects were
more than merely a "phase velocity"-like curiosity.  In fact, the
ability to transmit a signal at seemingly faster than the speed of light
even if through a solid only) has profound implications for FTL
comms and casuality. It may imply a major new area of understanding in 
physics as a whole.

Also, considerable controversy still surrounds the EPR argument, and
while under the Copenhagen interpretation it seems to be a paradox,
all such theoretical systems are founded on mutable underlying 
assumptions.  If the assumptions are proven to be wrong, things
thought previously to be possible may become quite possible.
In fact, it has recently been advanced as the theoretical basis of 
"transporter" arrangement of sorts.  Modern quantum mechanics
is revealing greater inconsistency in our traditional mode
of viewing the nature and limitations of reality.  The very
concept of quantum computing is one of the areas which may lead
us into an unchartable future.  It is certainly strange, but 
is nonetheless seriously debated.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:53:22 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>It seems that there was an experiment in Switzerland dealing with
>"twinned" photons, separated by several miles (yes, folks, you
>read that correctly - miles).  These "twinned" photons maintained
>a "connection" of some sort; they did a "T"-maze kind of
>experiment, where the direction that a photon would appear to
>have gone when the wave function collapses was randomly
>determined.
...
>But just imagine if it turns out that we _can_ manipulate one of
>the "twins", and read the other... The entire basic idea of
>Traveller (Commo no faster than go) goes down the tubes...

As best as I recall, there is a fair amount of work out there that seems to
indicate that this will not break SR, as no outside information can be
encoded.  This is still an amazing large scale demonstration of an effect
thought to be going on at small scales.  Further, it is an effect that
theoretically has been predicted for a while (1939, I believe), but that,
in the paraphrased words of Alain Aspect, one of the first to investigate
it, would likely not be done on a macroscopic scale in his lifetime.

It will be interesting to see the long term implications of a superluminal
effect, even if it is an effect that cannot transfer information.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: A little ride

In a message dated 97-07-22 11:32:19 EDT, you write:

<< 
 In the great, steamy storm-ridden state of Mississippi, which currently
 just got deluged by a wayward tropical storm remnant.
  >>
Thats where I did my training too, many moons ago.  Hope you guys made it
through the storms ok.

Regards
Todd Moody

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:01:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Trav Lang ML

>With reference to your message with the subject:
>   "subscribe TravLang volantzep@aol.com"
>
>One or more addresses in your message have failed with the following
>responses from the mail transport system:
>
>  <TravLang@earth.execnet.com>
>   List is restricted and you are not a member.
>
>Should you need assistance, please email support@earth.execnet.com.

So how exactly do I get on this list, can someone clue me?  ;^)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:01:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

My question is should every noble have property? 

If the Nobility is hereditary and the father squanders the fortune, leaving
his decents nothing but a title, seems likely that the table should include
the chance of having nothing or very little, like some stock of an old mine
on a backwater world or some such thing. 

 I have met one person who was from the middle east and had inherited a great
deal of money(he took his inheritance at a young age) and blew it all in less
than 10 years on bad investments and high living, I can see where perhaps
some of the newly titled nobles would blow any wealth that they might have
recently gained.

Just a thought.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Question of Culture

You must be a Economic Geography major.  ;^)

I took a class by that title in college and it was one of the most
interesting I have ever had.  I try to use the "pocket empires" of our little
planet to build a cultural ideal for a planet.  I generally think of my
traveller planets as being fairly homogenous (except for origin planets)
being made up of decendants of colonists.  The larger the population the
harder it becomes to maintain that homogenaity(sp?) and they begin to
balkanize generally.  Lots can happen in the thousands of years of colonizing
and just about anything you can think of is probably possible for a cultural
basis.  Just my 2 credits worth.

Todd Moody

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD distribution channels

> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:14:11 -0500
> From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
> 
> Craig Berry wrote:
>  
> > Would it perhaps be better to go to web presentation of the data,
> > supplemented by direct email to anyone needing it, on request?  Would
> > anyone object to that?  I fear this might reduce the already smallish
> > response to the competitions -- is this fear justified?  Comments and
> > suggestions are more than welcome.
> 
> Could you put it on an FTP server?  

Not easily.  How would this be superior to having it on the web?  What
environments offer FTP but not HTTP access tools?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 5 Ballot

                   THUDDD 5 Ballot
                   ---------------

For each appraisal category, assign each craft a score between 
1 (excellent) and 10 (horrible).  You may not vote on your own
entry.  Note that the categories have been changed somewhat for
this special description-oriented THUDDD.

Mail all ballots to Craig Berry at <cberry@cinenet.net>.  Due to
the delay in getting this ballot out, the voting deadline has been
extended to midnight PDT on Monday, July 28.

***

1. Overall Design

  Sluce - Class Yacht                     : 
  Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht           : 
  Rising Star                             : 
  Imelda - Class Yacht                    : 
  Xanadu 3 - Class Yacht                  : 
  Roswell - Class Yacht (type P-300YL)    : 

2. Most Likely to Use in a Game

  Sluce - Class Yacht                     : 
  Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht           : 
  Rising Star                             : 
  Imelda - Class Yacht                    : 
  Xanadu 3 - Class Yacht                  : 
  Roswell - Class Yacht (type P-300YL)    : 

3. Most Unusual Design

  Sluce - Class Yacht                     : 
  Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht           : 
  Rising Star                             : 
  Imelda - Class Yacht                    : 
  Xanadu 3 - Class Yacht                  : 
  Roswell - Class Yacht (type P-300YL)    : 

4. Best-Written Description

  Sluce - Class Yacht                     : 
  Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht           : 
  Rising Star                             : 
  Imelda - Class Yacht                    : 
  Xanadu 3 - Class Yacht                  : 
  Roswell - Class Yacht (type P-300YL)    : 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1600
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1601



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Weapon Registration
re Looking for
more on nobles, Traveller and TML
re: unsub
Re: Major/Minor Races
Re : LHyd fuel
Conventions (EURO GEN CON) and Milieu-Independent Products
WTB: Solomani & Aslan
PE Questions
Re: Noble Lands
Re: Fuel Scooping Query
Re: Time units
Re: Spreading Technology
Re: Noble Lands
Re: Re : Refueling Question
Re: FTL Commo?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:38:20 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Weapon Registration

I strongly agree that an interstellar mercantile bureaucracy like the 3I
would regulate weapons in private hands fairly heavily. The proposed ISBA
regulations work for me but ...

Nuke Dampers and Meson Screens should be Category 4, becasue they are the
main edge of the Imperial Navy when fighting Pocket Empires. A TL12 Imperial
ship will be able to take on *much* larger TL11 ships, because of the
Imperium's exclusive possession of these devices.

If a trader with one of these did a bunk and gave a working copy to a
potentially-hostile power, then a major edge of the 3I will be gone in
it's expansion plans.

Therefore the IN will do *everything* in it's power to prevent these weapons
falling into unreliable private hands. Thus they should be category four
or five.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:04:57 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: re Looking for

>I'm looking for MT literature on (i) robots, (ii) aliens and (iii)
>starships.  Anyone know of robot construction rules?  Info on Darrian?
>Rules about creating Vagr or Alsan characters?  A library or other listing
>of MT starships (those design rules take a *long* time ... )?  Anyone
>willing to sell or photocopy(!) any of this stuff?
>
>Mark

1) CT Book 8, Robots, is compatable with MT.

2) there were 2 alien modules for MT specifically, and the CT ones need
little change. The 2 for MT are _Vilani & Vargr_, and _Solomani & Aslan_.

3) Alien Module 8 for CT is subtitled _Darrians_

4 Library of MT vehicle designs: two of them. One is _101 vehicles_ by DGP,
the other is the Dean Files, found on the WWW. Statships of the military
bent are in Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. Since MT's strarship
combat is the same as High Guard, you can also use CT Supplement 9:
Fighting Ships. You might wanna grab Supplement 7: Traders and Gunboats;
most of the MT stats are in Imp Encyclopaedia.

5 Sell, etc... if only you'd talked to me a year ago.... I just sold my
spares of 101 vehicles, and last year sold my copies of V&V and S&A...
Somebody is trading me a Darrians... he said he had access to more... Send
me your address and I'll see about sending you some of my MT designs.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:22:17 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: more on nobles, Traveller and TML

Mike Peters wrote:

>I guess my problem with rolling-up a Noble PC stems from the fact that I
>see that more as a JOB than an adventure.

Urh, isn't that just the same for a Navy, Marine, Merchant.... character?
:-)

>As I said there are several
>types of nobles that I can see in a traveller game, mostly "powerless"
>ones, but a set of rules to roll them up should be available, but
>limited. One a PC becomes a Landed noble the action moves to level that
>takes it from a normal game group into something else.

I quite agree.  I just felt (and I don't think you were disagreeing with
this) that the 'something else' could be Traveller too.  (And wouldn't we
like rules for it!)


>I reffed games where a player managed to do some serious work (CT) with
>the Merchant Prince rules and establish his characters in what amounted
>to a Minor-Mega-Corp (!?).


Now this does sound fun.  (See my suggestion for a supplement along the
lines of _MegaCorporations_.)  Did the 'serious work' include anything
postable to TML?  I'm sure we'd love to see it.


> The character was used often after that as a
>hook into other a adventures, and as an off stage patron, meanwhile the
>player continued to uses the Merchant Prince info and a LOT of hand
>waving by me, to play the character as the CEO of his corporation. We

I wonder if there's a game of Traveller going/gone on that doesn't involve
a lot hand waving at times to cover points not covered by rules etc.  Seems
a valid response to the fact that the rule books *can't* cover
*everything*.  (And would we want them to try?)  It can be as much fun for
players and refs 'winging it' as having systems to cover the eventualities
the adventure involves.  Perhaps more stressful for the referee though!


>had fun but I am sure that stock transactions would have bored the other
>players to death.

Hmmm, wish I could have joined in!  Not all of us want to be weapon toting
warriors *all* the time!


>I totally agree with you that some type of PE supplement can be a LOT of
>fun, maybe when Nobles generation rules are created it could be a
>supplement including high level rules for noble gaming (similar to
>Trillion Credit Squadron or Merchant Prince's trade rules), (HINT! HINT!
>HINT! subtle ain't I?).


I'll vote for it.

> Of course, I'm also sure that the talent
>involved in this game probably has any number of ways of fitting a Noble
>in an on-going campaign,


Perhaps there should be a THUDDD for noble design.  ;-)


> and it's just my personal prejudice showing. I
>just felt the need to voice my opinion,


Just what TML's for...  (amongst other things)

> (something I do more often than
>I should, but not enough to satisfy me ;^) !)


...don't let anyone put you off voicing your opinion.  I certainly didn't
mean to suggest that you shouldn't have posted what you posted.  You just
caught me at a quiet moment when a) I had time to respond; b) I felt I had
something to say.  (Both are most unusual :-) but there you go.)


tc
"My turn to voice an opinion - forgive the rambling."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:46:07 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: re: unsub

I wrongly wrote:

>unsubscribe TML

Ooooups, sorry. Too many nicknames...
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:55:28 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

- -> > ->     The's why all Aslan military starships still have their jump drives 
- -> > -> made by "Boeing-Rockwell" in "Tycho City, Luna", in the year 2267.
- -> > I think you read that wrong: It should be "Airbus-Daimler" ;-) 
- -> 
- -> That's right, it came from a _crashed_ starship didn't it ;-)
Damn, should have been Boing after all....
The Starship crashed on Kusju after it dropped it's manuever drives 
without reason....  

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:10:15 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re : LHyd fuel

Hi All,

Nick Munn wrote -

> Actually, a MW-hour won't electrolyse that much hydrogen -- about .35 =

> m^3 is what I remember was calculated.

Yep. 1 MW converts 1 m3 of water into H2 and O2 in 2.95 hours.

> ... the temperature at which water spontaneously =

> dissociates to H2 and O2 is a little under 4000K.  If anyone has an =

> experimental number for this, I'd be really interested...

Hmm, and how energy does this require ? I suspect somewhat more
than electrolysis. Incidentally, does anyone know anything about
photolysis ? Apparently you can split water with sunlight somehow ...

> > Actually, electrolyzing water that has a significant amount of salt i=
n
> > it gets you hydrogen and *chlorine* with NaOH being left behind! That=

> > can be a *real* pain to deal with, as you wind up with a *solid* (or =
at
> > least *highly* concentrated solution).
> I suspect that scooped water would be distilled before purification =

> proper would begin to eliminate this problem.

Chlorine, while unpleasant is not a problem. Swimming pools have low amou=
nts
of chlorine in them and they are relatively safe. Ok, we're dealing with
higher amounts here, but then our average starship crew ain't going swimm=
ing
in the purification tanks ( which I assume are sealed off ) !

Anyhow, we only want the hydrogen unless we are powering fuel cells, so w=
ho
cares about the chlorine / oxygen evolved ? Vent them, dump them, whateve=
r.

> > So getting the hydrogen seperated is easy. Seperating the isotopes
> > could be handled by repeated diffusion (protium will diffuse fastest,=

> > tritium slowest)
> I suspect that it's possible to use the different probabilities of =

> adsorption of H2 and D2 on metal surfaces to do the same job.  (See =

> N.S. Munn & D.C. Clary, J. Chem. Phys. 105 (1996) 5258.)
> H2 diffusion in Pd is mentioned in Munn & Clary, Chem. Phys. Lett.
> 266 (1997) 437.  There are some references to experimental work in =

> there somewhere...

D2O can also be obtained from water by fractional distillation ( it boils=

at 101 degrees Celsius, as opposed to H2O's 100 degrees. ) I expect that
T2O has a higher boiling point, but I am not sure.

> I would envisage the =

> compression of fuel to be accomplished by the ship's velocity =

> relative to the atmosphere -- got to be pretty fast to collect all =

> that fuel -- and combined with venturi-like nozzles to provide Joule =

> cooling.  You may not quite be able to get LHyd straight off, but I'm =

> sure you can do a fair fraction of the work required.

Does anyone have any figures / maths to work out how much energy is requi=
red
to cool Hydrogen from a given temperature to LHyd using the Joule-Thomson=

effect ? I know the rapid expansion of the Hydrogen gas lowers the
temperature, but this has to be done several times, to do the job
properly, which means some energy must go into recompressing the
cycled gas. How much ?

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/=

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:14:01 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Conventions (EURO GEN CON) and Milieu-Independent Products

Well, it's my bi-annual spare moment to catch up on the TML...

CONVENTIONS
- -----------

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk kindly noted:

>Andy Lilly seems to be doing a great job of promoting Traveller at the Euro
>Gen Con last year and this year (yet to happen).
>He also encourages BITS members to attend (and run Traveller games if
>possible) many of the smaller events around the country.

Yes, and I'd like to thank the BITS members who are making this possible;
without their help there's no way I'd ever get to more than a couple of
conventions throughout the year. I think we will have managed about 8
conventions (some very small) over the past year and a bit.

>Surely this could become a formalized arrangement if IG were serious about
>representation but didn't want the expense?

This would be a very good idea. Then again, I tried to get IG to bring me
and Jo Grant over for GEN CON, but they couldn't reconcile the costs with
the benefits. Words such as "bother" and "oh dear" were exchanged at this
end. Maybe they'll fund us to go to Essen, which, as pointed out by Volker, is:

>Essen would be a good optin to consider in Germany (Biggest Games 
>Show in the World..)

If there are any UK people out there who are interested (or anyone else who
can attend EURO GEN CON, then here's some waffle:

**** BEGIN BLATANT PUBLICITY ****

BITS WILL BE THERE! Yes, we'll be running the same sort of stand as last
year, with loads of tables for us to run demos on, there'll be THREE
tournaments, and there should be space for you guys (BITS members) to run
your own Traveller games.

So, I'll be needing an extra load of help this year, because my trusty
helpers from last year (Jo and Lesley Grant) can't make it. I need help
running demos, promoting Traveller, selling stuff, running tournaments,
standing at our stand and simply talking about Traveller, etc., etc. THAT
MEANS YOU! I'd really appreciate any time that any of you could take to
help. (i.e. if you don't help, there won't be any tournaments, demos, etc.).
I'll also be offering some small incentives (freebies, reduced prices, etc.)
to those who help for a substantial period of time.

If you'd like to brighten up your role-playing life, then come to EGC! Meet
interesting people like  myself (?!), play Traveller (and lots of other
RPGs) with a new bunch, or even with your usual gaming buddies. The trade
stands and second-hand stalls are probably *THE* place to acquire those
Traveller books that you've always wanted, plus there will be several NEW
101 books published by BITS! As I said, you can bring your entire RPG group
if you like and use one of our tables to play Traveller throughout the event
- - anything at all that promotes Traveller. We should also have a demo of our
proposed Traveller Collectable Card Game for those of you who would like to
try it out.

        WHEN AND WHERE

28-31 August 1997
Loughborough University,
Loughborough,
Leicestershire, England

        APPLYING TO GO IS EASY!

Contact TSR on 01223-212517, or e-mail european_gencon@uk.wizards.be

You can pay by VISA, etc. or post in a booking form to:

EGC Booking, TSR Ltd., 120 Church End, Cherry Hinton, Cambridge CB1 3LB.

Fax is 01223-248066 if you need it.

        WHY SHOULD I GO?

You mean apart from it being *the* (UK) RPG event of the year? Apart from
sharing a campus with 3,000+ other gamers? (Ok, so that's not such a
persuasive argument) ;-)

        TOURNAMENTS

Traveller has three tournament slots. Thursday afternoon and Saturday
afternoon will be RPGA-approved tournaments (if you're not an RPGA member
don't worry, you still get the same prizes if you win!). Prizes? Yes, of
course there are prizes! Sunday morning we're hoping to run a fun
tournament, based loosely on a certain Red Dwarf TV series...

        NEW BITS PRODUCTS

Three more BITS 101 books should be available (101 Travellers, 101 Species
and 101 Rendezvous), along with the Traveller Bibliography, the Senate
Election Game and (if I have time) an alpha version of our Traveller
Collectable Card Game.

MILIEU INDEPENDENCE
- -------------------

>- -> PI, IMHO, is one of the best works yet by IG. It's given me insight not
>- -> only in M0 development of psionics but also helped in the development
>I like it as well, but would have wished for it to be more Milieu-
>indepentant.

I think all of us at CORE who have had a hand in many of the IG products to
date would admit that it's been difficult knowing quite how to place all the
'generic' products with regard to their Milieu. This has been particularly
troublesome for the Aliens book which we've just completed. The manner in
which I handled this for the Vargr was to write from two view points in the
historical sections - one from the 100s or 200s, and another from about
1100. Without compromising the possibilities for later adventures (the
Milieu 200 supplement, etc.) the 1100 viewpoint did include information that
was available at that time, which was not apparent in the earlier years (for
example, knowledge of the links between the Vargr and the Ancients).

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the readership (including the
TML) think of our efforts...

Andy :-)

P.S. The Vargr choice of colour schemes et al. may be tasteless or not,
depending upon your interpretation of what I've written... (Gods forbid we
should contradict canon) :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:21:23 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: WTB: Solomani & Aslan

Hello!

	This is one of the few MT items I don't have. If somebody has an 
extra copy, I'd gladly liberate you from the burden. :) Email me if 
interested.

PS.	I may be swapping away all of my CT alien modules soon (all 
except Zhodani and K'kree), depending whether or not I can get the 
money together for the hardcover reprint.

/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:31:02 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: PE Questions

Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> had some questions about PE, which I've not seen
anyone else answering, so I'll take a stab...

>The target world is balkanized world, you wish to take over control.
>1.If you attack it using Military Meta task do you attack each government
>separately?

Only if you divide the appropriate factors for the task between the
governments, i.e. subdividing the planet's military forces to each. I would
imagine that you'd need some form of successful propaganda exercise
beforehand to ensure that the other governments didn't interfere as you took
out their compatriots in turn. For simplicity, I'd attack the entire planet
as a whole. When under military attack, planetary unity can suddenly arise,
thus you'll be fighting them all anyway. You might give yourself a slight
bonus to the task roll given that the various military forces might not be
so well coordinated.

>2.To subdue the planet do you have to have troops subduing each government?

As above, probably most simple to count the whole world as one unit. If you
don't, then having defeated one of several governments, you also have to
decide which resources, population, etc. are available for that particular
government to decide what GWP benefit you gain from having annexed it, etc.
Plus any governments you failed to take over would no doubt be mounting
covert or open resistance to get you off the world again (knowing that if
they don't, you'll turn on them sooner or later).

>3.It states that if you take over a world you get half of its resources
>immediately, but later in the book it states that you have to wait two years?
>page 88 and page 66

From memory I thought the intention was you got half the resources
immediately, and the full resources became available after 2 years.

>4.If world is taken by the Tech Offensive do you have to take each
>government as in the balkanized example.

See thoughts for military take over above.

>5.If a world is taken using the Tech offensive Meta Task what is the Target
>world's government code the same as before or what like a six?

It should stay as before. Initially, one might think that - for example - a
religious dictatorship which oppresses its people and keeps technology for
themselves would be unstable after such a Tech offensive. However, it might
be that your offensive actually involved propping up such a government with
high tech goods, rather than being a humanitarian distribution of the high
tech to the greater populace.

>6.Under the Technology Offensive page 73 under Special Conditions:
>This meta task can only be attempted if the TPE is atleast 2 levels lower
>than that of the PE, or if the TW Tech Level is at least 4 levels lower
>than that of the PE.

>This refers to TPE(Target Pocket Empire) and TW (Target World) but the
>results are all referring to TW. From the above quote it would seem that
>you could use a PE of say one world and attempt a take over of a TPE of say
>3 worlds.

I believe (perhaps David Burden can correct me) that the effect is only ever
a single target world. The reason the TPE is referred to is that if a TPE
has practically as good a tech as you, then even if the TW TL is lower, the
TPE could support the TW against your tech imports (they'd be forced to
supply the goods from within the TPE rather than letting your goods in).

All above answers subject to being passed through a double Jump field (i.e.
it's anybody's guess whether they make sense or not).

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:04:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 97-07-22 12:08:46 EDT, you write:
>
> << 
>  If you use 3.14159 for pi, then you should use 1.60934 for the miles to
>  km conversion.
>   >>
> Good point. However, I haven't memorized 1.60934.

I haven't either. But I *do* have 2.54 cm = 1 inch memorized.

5280 * 12 * 2.54 = 160934.4 cm = 1.609344 km

I also have pi memorized as 3.1415926. But my calculator has a pi key...



- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:27:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Scooping Query

In mail you write:

> Andy/Nick/anyone else!
>
> Does the scooping of fuel at the rates suggested in Traveller present a
> problem requiring enormous buffer storage between the gaseous form and
> lhyd? Would you process the mix into pure fuel before or after you
> liquified it?

I've already shown how you might be able to get a decent rate of
seperation of hydrogen from gas gaint atmosphere (via diffusion thru
specialized materials). 

The *real* problem is getting the stuff liquefied quickly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:45:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time units

In mail you write:

>>Imperial        local
>>- --------      ------
>>year            ano
>>month           month
>>day             sol
>>hour            lun
>>min             centilun or minute which works better
>>sec             sec
>
> How about
>>sec            beats
>
> Since not all local time units will be in convinient numbers of seconds.

On the other hand, I don't really see that there'd be much *reason* to
to deal with "local" units to that degree of accuracy. Timeclocks don't
resolve down to the second either. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:23:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spreading Technology

In mail you write:

>
>>What did Einstein say? "God does not play dice with the Universe"?
>
> This comment was made in reference to the Uncertainty Principle and
> Einstein's perception of the indeterminancy of quantum mechanics. He
> supposedly said it so many times that Neils Bohr, who was more
> philosophically inclined to accept the contradictions in modern physics
> than Einstein, once became so exasperated that he admonished Einstein to
> "stop telling God what to do!"

And after the experiments that pretty much killed the "hidden
variables" interpretation, one physicist reportedly commented "Not only
does God play dice, he sometimes throws the dice where they can't be
seen."

Sounds like a GM to me...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:59:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

In mail you write:

> In mail you write:
>
>> In a message dated 97-07-19 14:27:18 EDT, you write:
>>
>> << 
>>  PS: Marc, your km2 per world hex is slightly different from the figures 
>>  in World Tamers handbook, p20.  But I believe that "Marc on the TML" 
>>  has higher ranking canon than TNE data :-)
>>  
>>   >>
>> I'll look it up. My formula was:
>>
>> World Size in Miles times 1.6 for Diameter in Kilometers.
>> Diameter in Kilometers times 3.14159 for Circumference.
>
> If you use 3.14159 for pi, then you should use 1.60934 for the miles to
> km conversion.

An addition to my own post. The 1.60934 figure is using the same number
of significant figures as your value for pi. The *exact* number is
1.609344. When dealing with metric <-> English length conversions, just
remember that the inch is *defined* as being 2.54 cm.

Also, the gallon is 231 cubic inches and the ounce (weight) is 28.35 grams.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:18:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Refueling Question

In mail you write:

> ************************************
> If you use the fact that hydrogen will diffuse thru *solid* materials
> (especially under pressure), you can likely have a scoop that narrows
> to a throat where a high pressure is reached (encouraging diffusion)
> and then widens out again letting the gasses escape. 
>
> You'll have a constant flow of hydrogen and *no* buildup of other
> gasses.
> The flow rate of hydrogen will depend on the pressure, and the
> diffusion rate (which can be pretty high for some materials. The fact
> that the gasses in the channel get heated by the compression (and thus
> heat the walls of the channel) will *help* the diffusion!
>
> Y'know, I think I've just come up with a *workable* scoop design!
> ************************************
>
> The device you described: wide mouth, narrow throat, widening exhaust is
> known as a venturi.  Unfortunately (at least as far as what you
> said--the real life venturi has a myriad of uses) a venturi LOWERS the
> pressure in the throat--however the velocity of the gas passing through
> increases.

Damn! I'd forgotten that. Is it possible to design a channel such that
you *do* get a higher pressure region with a constant flow? If not,
then I guess we change it to a straight pipe.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:35:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

In mail you write:

> ... well, the people who did the experiment that the New York
> Times wrote about today (7/22/97) claim not, because of special
> relativity - but the fact remains, there is at least one
> phenomenon that is documented as propagating faster than light...
>
> It seems that there was an experiment in Switzerland dealing with
> "twinned" photons, separated by several miles (yes, folks, you
> read that correctly - miles).  These "twinned" photons maintained
> a "connection" of some sort; they did a "T"-maze kind of
> experiment, where the direction that a photon would appear to
> have gone when the wave function collapses was randomly
> determined.  In every case, both "twins" chose the same direction
> - a 100% correlation - and to the limits of accuracy, the choices
> happened simultaneously, to within time limits that could not
> allow for slower-than-C transmission.  Regrettably, I left
> today's paper on my desk at the precinct; I'll bring it home
> tomorrow and post more detail - unless someone beats me to it.
> But just imagine if it turns out that we _can_ manipulate one of
> the "twins", and read the other... The entire basic idea of
> Traveller (Commo no faster than go) goes down the tubes...

This kind of experiment is old hat. They've been doing them over
shorter distances for years. The trick is that the phenomenon is
*totally* useless for transmitting information. You can't "modulate"
them usefully due to the very nature of the effect.

There are several other FTL effects, all equally useless for
transmitting information (for example "phase velocity" can be very FTL,
but can't be used to send info). 

Relativity doesn't forbid FTL, it forbids sending material or
information FTL. The FTL phenomena known all involve no transfer of
info.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1601
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1602



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Refueling and fusion power
Re: Calendars and simultaneity
Re: Low tech firearms
BLAM Update
Pi
Re: Low tech firearms
Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems
Re: LHyd fuel
Re: Fusion Power
Re: Re : Refueling Question
Re: Calendars and simultaneity
Re: Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: Funny RPG anecdote...
Re: FBI in 3I
Re: psi institutes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:35:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Refueling and fusion power

In mail you write:

>
> A question related to the refueling thread:
>
> Can anyone tell me why there is such great disparity between sci-fi games
> on the amount of fuel required to power a fusion reaction? Gurps for
> instance includes the fuel for a fusion reactor in the volume of the
> reactor and rules that this is sufficient to power full output for a period
> of 200 years. Traveller, as we all know, rules that starships require huge
> tanks of LHyd to power a reactor for a relatively short period of time.
>      Which version is more scientifically accurate? And are there any
> real-world formulae or scientific laws that enable us to work out the fuel
> required to power a deuterium -helium fusion reaction for a given output?
> Be gentle with me, now, I'm a technical writer not a scientist.

It's actually quite *easy* to figure the amount of fuel needed... 

First you decide how efficient the reactor is. Then you decide which
fusion reaction you are using. Add up the atomic weights of the input
and subtract the atomic weights of the output (for example 4H->He means
that you'd add up the atomic weight of 4 hydrogen atoms, and subtract
the atomic weight of one helium atom). (you need to use the atomic
weights that are carried out to 4 or more places)

Next you divide the difference by the starting weight (ie the 4H in my
example). This tells you what percentage of the mass you feed into the
reactor is turned into energy. 

Let's say the figure is .1% (roughly correct). At 85% efficiency that'd
mean that you get .085% of the mass converted to energy.

Now you need to ask how much power the reactor is supposed to put out.
Let's say 1 megawatt. That's one million joules per second. E=mc^2
tells us:

1e6=m*(3e8)^2
1e6=m*(9e16)
1e6/9e16=m
11.11e-12=m

divide by .085% (.00085) gives 13e-9. That's in kilograms. 13e-6 grams.

So you need about 13 micrograms of fuel per second for a one MW reactor
at 85% efficiency using a reaction that converts .1% of the mass to
energy. 

So in 200 years it'd use 82 kilograms of fuel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:08:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Calendars and simultaneity

In mail you write:

>> > Speaking form the end of the 20th century, this sounds resonable and
>> > accomplishable.  Commentary and crossfire?
>> 
>> Well, signal strength gets to be a big issue. I figure that you'd need
>> "repeaters" at least every sector or so.
>> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
> This is a great adventure hook.  Anybody know what the secret of GPS,
> the Global Positioning System, is?  Its accurate timekeeping.  The
> system would be usless without some of the best clocks ever built.  It
> may be relative but it is relative to US.  And therefore not
> meaningless.
>
> Controlling an accurate, non-drifting time source information is
> critical to commerce and war.  Technologically everything runs off it,
> so your "prime source" had better be a good one.  

Civilized systems will have GPS on the mainworld and on other "well
developed" worlds. Heck, GPS should be easy enough to install in orbit
(given the tech level required for jump drive) that it may even be
installed as a matter of course shortly after contact is set up with
new worlds, even low tech ones.

In civilized systems you'll also have some sort of grid of beacons
distributed around the system to act as a nav grid for it. So after
jumping in, your nav system checks for the signals from the nearest SPS
(System Positioning System) beacons and tells you where you are.

> My Traveller campaign, we originally used Reference as the focus. 
> However, Reference was not the DGP version, rather a very young pulsar
> (less than 2000 years old.)  It had a definate spindown rate, albeit
> small, and was used as a central 3D astrographic pint as well as a
> timeclock.  No better signal than that.
>
> Otherwise the Imperial Standard time broadcast with heavily defended/not
> so well defended repeaters could be used.  

They don't need defending as they are too useful to the *enemy*.
Besides, for the interstellar references, it does no good as the
signals won't stop showing up in other systems until *years* after you
destroy them.

> Now, what about spectral shift of the signal due to relative stellar
> velocities?  That would affect its time component, skewing the
> "universal" time.  Any suggestions?

Easy. The velocity causes the apparent pulse rate to shift. But it also
causes the *frequency* to shift by the same amount. So you just compare
the frequency to a local frequency standard and that gives you the
pulse rate difference. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:57:09 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Low tech firearms

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Actually, since BP is such lower pressure than modern smokeless powder,
> it's easy to construct this so a primer blowout wouldn't occur.

I think this would depend a lot on whether the weapon was designed at 
TL3, as well as manufactured, or whether it was designed at TL7+, for 
low TL manufacture, because early primer, aside from being rather 
corrosive tended to blow a fair bit. 

> Jamming, on the other hand...
> 
> Also, black powder isn't as fouling as this post would indicate. one of
> the tests that the Army conducted on BP Cartridge rifles in the 1870's
> was a continuous fire test: firing the thing until you couldn't shoot it,
> or 1000 rounds, whichever came first. The Sharps .45-70 lost out to the
> Remington because the cartridge eventually jammed in the breech, and the
> person conducting the test broke off the ejection lever. By grabbing the
> stock of the gun, and sticking his boot under the ejection lever and
> pushing.

IIRC the firearm's calibre is quite important, and fouling becomes a 
much greater problem at .30 and smaller.
 
> However, this brings up the point that guns like this could get around
> such problems by using 'caseless' ammo: paper cartriges were in very
> common use from the early 1800's on through to the invention of brass
> cased ammunition. No worries about jammed cartriges, and more importantly
> for an underground insurrection, reloads can be made where ever you can
> get some powder, paper and time.

True, but it'd be tricky making an automatic weapon for paper 
cartridges, especially at TL3-4.

Some other problems I see with a black-powder assualt rilfe (mind you 
I think it's a cool idea): fouling would be serious if a gas system 
was used, and a bullpup blowback would be very dangerous, especially 
with black powder. This pretty much leaves us with a recoil system, 
and they're heavy (makes for low recoil, though). BTW guncotton is 
really easy to make, and can be turned into a smokeless propellant, 
so if anyone has had access to any TL4+ chemistry texts there's no 
need to use black powder.

R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 05:27:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: BLAM Update

  Remember that BLAM projectile I mentioned a few digests back?  Well,
I was reading the latest issue of Soldier of Fortune (did you know there's
a going to be a Soldier of Fortune TV series?) and found a blurb.  Seems
BLAM stands for "Barrel-Launched Adaptive Munition," and the description
is much like that I gave before (a two-part projectile with piezoelectic
"tendons" that flex to control aerodynamic attitude).  Velocity is given
as up to 6,000 feet per second (about 2,000 m/s).  It's intended for use
against satellites, ground targets, and theater balistic missiles, as well
as air to air combat.  Versions on fighters would use a lower velocity for
air-to-air (3-4,000 fps), while the higher velocity would be mounted on a
large fighter (F-15) or bomber (B-1) for shooting down satellites.

  Cost per round would be firly low, estimated as as little as $400 per
round.  Air to ground versions would incorporate GPS for guidence
 - idea is to fire them from AC-130 gunships, with a range of up to 50
miles.  This version would cost more - $8-10,000 each.  That's still
fairly cheap compared to missiles.
 
  The U.S. Air Force has already done preliminary tests, which demonstrate
the guidance system can survive the stress of launch - no estimate on how
long a time needed before it will be tested full-up.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:31:58 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Pi

Someone pointed out to Marc:
>>>  If you use 3.14159 for pi, then you should use 1.60934 for the miles
to
>>>  km conversion.

Marc responded:
>> Good point. However, I haven't memorized 1.60934.

Leonard replied:
>I haven't either. But I *do* have 2.54 cm = 1 inch memorized.
>5280 * 12 * 2.54 = 160934.4 cm = 1.609344 km
>I also have pi memorized as 3.1415926. But my calculator has a pi key...

Oh alright then, I'll confess.  At school I knew pi to 50 places (can only
manage 25 of them now for whatever that's worth) - but I'm *sure* there
will be a TMLer who can knock spots off that!

tc
The Sad One.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:26:58 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Low tech firearms

>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:08:45 -0700 (MST)
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Low tech firearms

>Actually, since BP is such lower pressure than modern smokeless powder,
>it's easy to construct this so a primer blowout wouldn't occur.

>Jamming, on the other hand...

>Also, black powder isn't as fouling as this post would indicate. one of
>the tests that the Army conducted on BP Cartridge rifles in the 1870's
>was a continuous fire test: firing the thing until you couldn't shoot it,
>or 1000 rounds, whichever came first. The Sharps .45-70 lost out to the
>Remington because the cartridge eventually jammed in the breech, and the
>person conducting the test broke off the ejection lever. By grabbing the
>stock of the gun, and sticking his boot under the ejection lever and
>pushing.

Also the first Maxim guns and Lee-Metfords used 0.303 black powder rounds.
As did the early Mannlicher and Mausers. Most nations did not go over to
smokeless powders until the 1890's.

>However, this brings up the point that guns like this could get around
>such problems by using 'caseless' ammo: paper cartriges were in very
>common use from the early 1800's on through to the invention of brass
>cased ammunition. No worries about jammed cartriges, and more importantly
>for an underground insurrection, reloads can be made where ever you can
>get some powder, paper and time.

Paper cases have some very real problems. Most obvious is what happens when
they get wet. Less obvious is that to withstand the stress of an automatic
action you would have to use a fairly heavy cardboard tube. This involves
the use of a binding agent (glue). Such a case would not completely combust.
At the very least it will leave considerable residue, less obviously it
will also leave smoldering embers in the breach which could ignite the next
round before the action is closed (during the Napoleonic period the RN used
flannel charge bags in preferance to paper for exactly this reason). A
primer blowout is nothing compared with ignition with the action open. Also
there is a very real jamming problem with paper cartridges. The historical
paper rounds were designed to be used with manual action single shot weapons.
The fastest manual action (the SMLE rifle IIRC) can achieve perhaps 2 rounds
a second and is not very abrupt. An automatic action is going to be firing
around 5 to 7 rounds a second and is very abrupt (especially blowback). If
your cartridge warps on feeding, you have a jam (or a discharge from an
incompletely closed bolt).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:44:02 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems

	I may have a problem that I could not figure out with the ship design
systems in Mega-Traveller and T4, so I have little recourse but to ask
assistance from this group.

	My problems are as follows:

	1. In T4 I cannot find the Jump Drive Potential table, am I supposed to
use an other table like it was the J potential table, or do I need to look
somewhere else. If I have to look somewhere else, is it on the internet or
in the rules book or both?

	2. In Megatraveller, when designing a starship using the referee's manual,
the CP section has me a little confused.  When you calculate the CP for a
given section (Hull, Loco, electronics, etc.) The formula given is:
CP=(Pr/100000)xTL  Now the way I see it the price/100K is to convert your
total price for the section into Kcr is that right?  Or does it conver the
price into Mcr?  I had assumed that the prices throughout the design
process as being in Cr, and so I had converted the prices to Mcr
automaticly.  Now that I am at this point I don't know if I had done the
pricing correctly or not.

	3. In Megatraveller, when you purchase a computer, what is the CP
Multiplier for, and how do I determine the number of inputs that I need? 
Ex. A scout/curiour panel=holodynamic linked x 181.  Where does the  x 181
come from?

	Please respond to scspieker@ncweb.com to conserve bandwidth from the TML,
unless this is a common problem....

Thanks in advance,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:45:44 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: LHyd fuel

Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>

> > ... the temperature at which water spontaneously =
> > dissociates to H2 and O2 is a little under 4000K.  If anyone has an =
> > experimental number for this, I'd be really interested...
> 
> Hmm, and how energy does this require ? I suspect somewhat more
> than electrolysis.

I make it Delta H = +325 kJ/mol, compared to +286 kJ/mol at sensible 
temperatures for electrolysis.

However, it requires much less *work* than electrolysis, because it's 
spontaneous i.e. no external work is required.  You can recover a 
proportion of the difference in energies by exchanging heat between 
the high-temperature H2/O2/H2O) mixture and the water about to be 
cracked.  Plus you don't have the inefficiencies of generating the 
electricity.

> Incidentally, does anyone know anything about
> photolysis ? Apparently you can split water with sunlight somehow ...

Sure, but it's not very efficient because a lot of energy is lost as 
heat.  Also the trick is getting enough to split that you get 
measurable amounts of H2 and O2 gas... which is hard in bulk water.



> Chlorine, while unpleasant is not a problem. Swimming pools have low amou=
> nts
> of chlorine in them and they are relatively safe. Ok, we're dealing with
> higher amounts here, but then our average starship crew ain't going swimm=
> ing in the purification tanks ( which I assume are sealed off ) !
> 
> Anyhow, we only want the hydrogen unless we are powering fuel cells, so w=
> ho
> cares about the chlorine / oxygen evolved ? Vent them, dump them, whateve=
> r.

Well, it might depend on the electrode system, but chlorine may not 
do an electrode for oxygen much good...


> D2O can also be obtained from water by fractional distillation ( it boils=
> at 101 degrees Celsius, as opposed to H2O's 100 degrees. ) I expect that
> T2O has a higher boiling point, but I am not sure.

Ugh.  That's a very small difference, and the vapour pressure of D2O 
at 100 C must be very high -- this would be really inefficient.  
Diffusion methods or centrifuge techniques would be favourite, 
surely?

> Does anyone have any figures / maths to work out how much energy is requi=
> red
> to cool Hydrogen from a given temperature to LHyd using the Joule-Thomson=
> effect ? I know the rapid expansion of the Hydrogen gas lowers the
> temperature, but this has to be done several times, to do the job
> properly, which means some energy must go into recompressing the
> cycled gas. How much ?

Inversion temp. for H2 is 202K, so we get Joule heating above this 
temperature at all pressures.  Practical use would be below 50 atm 
pressure, down to about 50K.

Easiest thing to do would be to calculate total work done in 
compressing/cooling H2 and then multiply by some factor to represent 
the inefficiency.  A mixture of reversible and irreversible processes 
gives something like 12.7 kJ/mol for this -- maybe as little as
6 kJ/mol.  This latter figure is roughly 0.0075 MW-hour per m^3 of H2.
It all depends on the intake pressure/temperature of H2, which I 
guessed at 10 atm and 200K.

Nick



Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:24:15 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Power

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> Let's say the figure is .1% (roughly correct). At 85% efficiency that'd
> mean that you get .085% of the mass converted to energy.
>
> Now you need to ask how much power the reactor is supposed to put out.
> Let's say 1 megawatt. That's one million joules per second. E=mc^2
> tells us:
>
> 1e6=m*(3e8)^2
> 1e6=m*(9e16)
> 1e6/9e16=m
> 11.11e-12=m
>
> divide by .085% (.00085) gives 13e-9. That's in kilograms. 13e-6 grams.
>
> So you need about 13 micrograms of fuel per second for a one MW reactor
> at 85% efficiency using a reaction that converts .1% of the mass to
> energy.
>
> So in 200 years it'd use 82 kilograms of fuel.
>


Hmm...Thats a little different than how I figure it out...

The mass change for a 2H1 + 3He2 --> 4He2 + 1H1 reaction is 1.960E-5 kg
per mole

7kg = 1392.1 moles

1.960E-5 kg --> 1.762E+12 Joules
  minus 20% for maintaining the reaction(I'm guessing 20%, I know 20% is
correct for
  a deuterium + deuterium fusion reaction)

  ~~1.409E+12 J

so, whatever efficiency you want, say 85%, would give you

  ~~1.198E+12 J

7kg would give you  ~~1.668E+15 J       ( 1.198E+12 * 1392.1 moles )

divide that by the number of seconds you want the reactor to last then
by 1 million watts
per MW will give you the PP rating in MW

1.668E+15 J  /  31,536,000 s / 1,000,000 watts / 1 MW ~~ 52.88 MW Power
Plant with
a 1 year life-span

I'm not a physics buff...this is just chemistry...  If I'm waaayyyy off
base lemme know what's wrong...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:44:57 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Re : Refueling Question

> Damn! I'd forgotten that. Is it possible to design a channel such that
> you *do* get a higher pressure region with a constant flow? If not,
> then I guess we change it to a straight pipe.
> 
> --

Yeah-its called a compressor and is the first stage of a jet engine. 
Involves as many as 1 to 16 stages of compressor blades designed to
drive pressure up.  After that you burn it, blow it across a turbine
with sucks off energy to drive a shaft which drives the compressor.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:48:32 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Calendars and simultaneity

> > Now, what about spectral shift of the signal due to relative stellar
> > velocities?  That would affect its time component, skewing the
> > "universal" time.  Any suggestions?
> 
> Easy. The velocity causes the apparent pulse rate to shift. But it also
> causes the *frequency* to shift by the same amount. So you just compare
> the frequency to a local frequency standard and that gives you the
> pulse rate difference.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

Yeah-differential GPS.  Only good locally though.  I'm thinking of the
300year broadcast to cover the whole TI with a time signal.  How would
gravitation affect this?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:47:35 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems

At 09:44 AM 7/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>	2. In Megatraveller, when designing a starship using the referee's manual,
>the CP section has me a little confused.  When you calculate the CP for a
>given section (Hull, Loco, electronics, etc.) The formula given is:
>CP=(Pr/100000)xTL  Now the way I see it the price/100K is to convert your
>total price for the section into Kcr is that right?  Or does it conver the
>price into Mcr?  I had assumed that the prices throughout the design
>process as being in Cr, and so I had converted the prices to Mcr
>automaticly.  Now that I am at this point I don't know if I had done the
>pricing correctly or not.

The price sould be in Mcr then divided by 100k times TL to get CP's

>	3. In Megatraveller, when you purchase a computer, what is the CP
>Multiplier for, and how do I determine the number of inputs that I need? 
>Ex. A scout/curiour panel=holodynamic linked x 181.  Where does the  x 181
>come from?

You use  the CP Multipler to reduce the number of control panels will need.
IE if your ship needs 1000 CP's and your are using a X type control with a
value of 10 and the CP mulitplier of 2 then the two together give you a
value of 20 so 1000/20 gives you 50 type X control panels needed. 

>	Please respond to scspieker@ncweb.com to conserve bandwidth from the TML,
>unless this is a common problem....

Scott,

I can send you a excel spreadsheet that does all the MT ship design system.
It is in excel for PC. Interested?
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:04:06 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

>Condescending, yes.  Correct, no.  Besides, the speed of light is
>variable in vacuum depending upon the Casimir exclusion in effect in
>that region (another surprise straight out of Quantum Mechanics.)
>
>-Dan Lane.

I'm sorry for being condescending and bullheaded but could you please
direct me to where info regarding this phenomena can be gotten. My source
for the phase speed bullshit is FAR older than 1995 (early eigthies I
think) so if some new discoveries were made that REALLY transmitted
INFORMATION at 5.7 c I will publicly state that I'm a bullheaded moron, I
will even change my tagline to include "The bullheaded moron" if I find the
actual experiments credible.

Could someone please direct me to sources  for this truly unbelievable
scientific achievement?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:13:23 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

>I agree with Anders - it's a neat result, but it doesn't demonstrate
>FTL *communication*. It's not like they sent (for example) on-off binary
>pulses at the speed of light; instead, they sent a part of a complex
>signal (the symphony) that when recombined with the other part transmitted
>normally, interefered to reproduce the symphony when the relative delays
>were adjusted as is the FTL leg actually had travelled faster than light.
>This is ambiguous for a whole bunch of reasons - not least because the
>symphony is lacking in information at frequencies comparable to the
>travel times. It's certainly not clear that you could use this to send
>information, but only to send a signal that only makes sense when you
>recombine it with a signal that travels slower than light.
>
>Most apparent FTL paradoxes are like this - like phase speeds, or
>Anders' lighthouse, or the EPR paradox; there are relatively straightforward
>proofs that you can never use the EPR "action at a distance" to transmit
>information - you can only notice the correlations when you compare the
>results from both ends after the fact.
>
>Bruce

Thanks Bruce, could you give me sources to this (despite the obvious flwas
such experiments are generally good read, especially the experts reactions
be it pro or con - Remember the astrophysical relativistic cannonball thing
in the eighties when matter thrown out from some stellar object seemed to
exceed c until relativistic corrections were made on angular calcs).

Also, on another note, do you still(?) have your comm range/power figures
that you calculated for the FF&S2 ? I'd like to fiddle around a bit with
this and the new 100 000 km plus space combat ranges to see if anything
useful might come up.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:23:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

>There are several other FTL effects, all equally useless for
>transmitting information (for example "phase velocity" can be very FTL,
>but can't be used to send info).
>
>Relativity doesn't forbid FTL, it forbids sending material or
>information FTL. The FTL phenomena known all involve no transfer of
>info.

Thanks to you too. It's good to have some backing in this area as it is soo
much easier to get c-breaking experiments in print than proof to the
contrary. The funniest part of these breaking-fundamental-laws-of-nature
stories is that the journalists/readers doesn't get suspicious over the
lack of interest by the scientific community. This is probably due to the
fact that most weird-science diggers are also conspiracy theorists at heart
- - if the science community is silent they take is as PROOF that the
experiments are sound.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:48:29 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Funny RPG anecdote...

On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:33:11 -0400, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Was talking to one of the guys I work with today, who's been GM'ing
> AD&D since the dark ages.  Had the following utterly demented story to tell
> me from a game he played in:
> 
> 	One of the players missed three sessions, so the GM killed his
> character.  However, one of the other PCs, who had a Reincarnation spell,
> used it.  The die was rolled, and the character was reincarnated as... a
> parrot.  Everyone thought that the player would simply give up and do up
> another character, but he said "No, I'll play the parrot!".
> 
> 	There was also a paladin in the party.  One night, the parrot, who
> had ventriloquism skill or some such (don't ask me I'm only relaying the
> story) wakes up the paladin saying:
> 
> 	"Pssst!  Paladin!  This is God!"
> 
> 	The guy playing the paladin rolls his eyes; the GM makes him make
> an intelligence roll... which he blows completely, totally, and utterly.
> The GM tells him that he believes everything he hears.  The parrot
> continues:
> 
> 	"Paladin!  The parrot is my Emissary!  Protect the parrot AT ALL
> COSTS!"
> 
> 	For the rest of the campaign, the paladins fiercely defended the
> parrot, carried the parrot around, waited on the parrot hand and foot...
> 
> 	Makes me glad that I'm not playing D&D, but boy was that funny.  I
> was chuckling all day over that one.

LOL!  Now *this* is the difference between ROLL-playing and
ROLE-playing!

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 18:04 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

In-Reply-To: <19970723161928171.AAA402@[192.168.2.7]>

> There will be an Imperial "FBI", "CIA" etc. The Imperium probably is still
> using local forces and integrating them at the time of proclamation. 

Imperial Ministry of Justice.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 18:04 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: psi institutes

In-Reply-To: <404F3D35731@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

Volker,

> -> 
> -> Still, B5 returns tonight so that's something to look forward to!
> Growl, Germany's station hasn't even started to plan for the return 
> of Bab5, growl...

Does everybody here know about Claudia Christian leaving?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1602
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 24 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1603



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Major/Minor Races
RE: Bounty Hunting
Re: Planning Traveller Design
Roswell BS???
The 'Company' in Traveller (was FBI in 3
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems
Re : LHyd fuel
Re: psi institutes
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1590
LOL
B5 was Psi institues
Re: psi institutes
FBI in 3I
Re: FBI in 3I
Re: LOL
Re: Nobles Land
IG Web Page & mailing list

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 18:04 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.88.9707231744.A2209-0100000@fujin.qub.ac.uk>

> "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> sent:
>  
> -> The's why all Aslan military starships still have their jump drives
> -> made by "Boeing-Rockwell" in "Tycho City, Luna", in the year 2267.
>  
> >I think you read that wrong: It should be "Airbus-Daimler" ;-)
>  
> Nope, "British Exospace" {8->
>  
> Eamon.

Actually, Rolls-Royce make the engines.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:29:10 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Bounty Hunting

MegaTraveller 2 (computer game) had rewards for killing wanted 
criminals.  The story line is credited to Marc Miller, so Bounty 
Hunting must be canon :-).

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:08:21 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:48:33 -0400
hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale) writes:
Subject: Re: Planning for Traveller Design
>
>   People strongly disagreed with your position, but no one here was
>trying to "hush you up".  They *did* become very impatient, and I can't
>say that I blame them.  You made certain assertions and then didn't back
>them up, at least not until significantly later.

As I said, perceptions can take on a realistic tone, until experience
sets the reference frame.  I was new to TML, and it _is not_ like any
other list I have been on.  You should know better than anyone, that I
don't let others set my schedule.  Just a stubborn side of me. :)

Hey, perhaps the list encourages more careful posting, but someone with
my experience at analyzing the game has a long, rich tradition of
"knowing" the Traveller Universe.  I do understand that something as
provocative as what I was saying does need an explanation of the reasoning
behind it.  Even having said all that, the emotional aspects of the list
were something I absolutely could not have forseen.

I see that whole thing as just an unpleasant non-communication experience.
I didn't know (or even imagine that) at the outset that whole discussion
that it would boil down to people here not seeing that I had a different
approach to looking at published events.  And, only since Mark Clark's
comments on this thread, did I see that anyone was taking serious any
notion that _I_ was deciding these kinds of things.  I said from the
outset that "I was interested" in the subject.  I've learned a lot more
from all of it, and I think a few people have clearer notions about the
"pre-history" of Traveller M:0 onward.  So I guess it was not all a waste
of time.

>   It has come to the point, with me at least, where I am beginning
>think in terms of *two* seperate games when I talk about the primary
>subject of this mailing list.  One game is 'Traveller', a game produced
>by GDW which has a common storyline and three different sets of game
>mechanics (CT/MT/TNE) that take its common universe up to the Imperial
>year 1202. The other is 'Marc Miller's Traveller', a game produced by
>IG that uses many common story and mechanical elements from 'Traveller',
>but is sufficently different so as to constitute a *seperate* game. 
>Just as 'Traveller: 2300' was not 'Traveller', neither is 'Marc Miller's
>Traveller'.  While we have become accustom to calling 'Marc Miller's
>Traveller' "T4", that designation is a rather unfortunate one, because
>it increases the expectations older players have to levels that IG seems
>unable to comply with.

This is like I pointed out in my Edsel Gouch's Traveller campaign example.
He stopped reading and playing the "published universe" after _Rescue on
Ruie_ in JTAS #1.  And nobody is twisting his arm to do otherwise, however,
he should realize that he made some choices with his campaign setting that
just don't apply to those who chose to go forward.

That attitude can be applied in a chronological sense as well.  Someone
who does not like the Rebellion can refuse any "canon" after 1117.  Same
with Virus--no "canon" after 1129 (late).  It is just a matter of each
and every referee's/player's choice.  Some even use the published timeline
as something going on somewhere else, and their hard work is the total
focus of their universe.  All perfectly fine and even excellent.

You could take your argument to extend to every single book/product for
the game, but that doesn't make any of the totally consistent universe any
less valuable to others.  There are some who are getting their first intro
to Traveller through T4 and they don't necessarily benefit from our biased
views, and ancient history. :)

If they find some classic products from dealers like myself, and pick it up
and see how it all fits together, they benefit from knowing that they have
jumped into a pool whose temperatures vary with depth, the color differs
from one part of the pool to another, and the reflections and colors of the
clouds and sky change from different angles, depending upon where one
sits/swims; and that is no different than all of the rest of us and our
collective experience since 1977--Traveller is the Mother, Traveller is the
Father. :)

>   The alternative to thinking of 'Marc Miller's Traveller' as a
>seperate game is continued frustration as it becomes increasingly
>difficult (nay impossible) to reconcile everything under the 'Traveller'
>name.

I think it is an attitude choice that each and every one of us have, and
have full control over.  Take my Aslan Major/Minor race aspect.  At the
time the TD ish came out, I didn't like the twist on a Major race, something
that was clearly "canon" before.

Over time, I thought about it.  My characters, though in close proximity
to Kusyu, had never travelled there.  The Aslan presence in my campaign
was not in the least impacted by it.  As Aslan perspective in S&A points
out, something like, "look only to our Hierate to decide if we are major
or not."

I finally concluded that it just didn't matter, and I didn't necessarily
want this long list of explanation about what I agreed with and didn't
agree with on the published timeline, when it came to meeting a Traveller
player "new" to me.  And the simple truth is, it just didn't matter to my
campaign what the perception was.  The Aslan Hierate does speak for itself,
irrespective of the conclusions of some Imperial sophontologist's fixation
with Jump drive as the only way to judge things.

The Major/Minor race attitude of the Imperium was a fun plot device, and
certainly added color to help us fill in the dominant Imperial dogma.

There is also something to seeing an idea which has been realized in the
sum total setting of its own published context, versus that single idea
in the vaccuum of everything but the past to judge it.  This is the
domain of writing!

>   Reinventing the wheel may work if you are Dilbert's boss, but it only
>causes anxiety, frustration and even anger for the rest of us.  Over 90
>percent of the storyline bugs had been worked out in Traveller when GDW
>closed its doors for the last time (the Regency Sourcebook and other
>later publications were of valuable assistance in that regard).  Now,
>new ones have developed as a result of T4.

Maybe Marc should have let TNE wither on the vine for a few years without
GDW, to give everyone that same perspective a lot of us felt when TNE
finally appeared.  But I am happy he did not.

As for the "anxiety, frustration, and even anger for" some of you, I have
shown _a_ way that you can have your cake and eat it too.  I am not offended
if some did not like it, but hey, that's just me.

>   You make an excellent case here for treating 'Marc Miller's
>Traveller' as a unique game with its own seperate storyline, apart from
>the rest of Traveller.

No, that's your case given the view of reality I've presented.  I don't
think it is a necessarily bad view, but I concede it is mine.  I have not
had as much fun with thinking, planning, researching, studying, and figuring
out the past history of relevance to a Traveller subject since the earliest
days.  I definitely owe Marc a debt of gratitude for bringing all of this
back again.

Yeah, maybe there are problems, but someone (especially me) who wants to
have fun, will not let the "little" things get in the way.  We are born
improvisers--that is perhaps the vernacular definition of role-playing.

Come on, the game is afoot!

>Harold
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:23:25 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Roswell BS???

>I'm sorry if I sound a bit condescending but the above references are as
>valid as the Roswell bullshit, cropcircles etc but tend to have followers

Something happened at Roswell, NM... The current USAF story is the BS...

1) The dummy program cited started in the mid 50's, not in 47.

2) The dummies illustrated weren't in service til 57, acording to several
USAF rocketry texts I've read.

3) There are large ammounts of stuff held in classified storage in the US
National archives (50+ cubic feet) under the series title "Roswell
1946-1950"
Saw this in a locator file. Where a patron pointed it out to me. And the
citizens are NOT allowed to look at it.

Beware, Anders, the TRUTH is out there... if only the governments believed
we're adult enough to handle it. (God, I sound like a commercial for
X-Files.)

If there was nothing happening at roswell, then Why is there so much
stored? (I admit, 50 feet isn't too much, but for an incident that is
supposedly nothing, it is QUITE a lot... about half as much as Bluebook
has.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:23:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: The 'Company' in Traveller (was FBI in 3

>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 18:04 BST-1
>From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
>Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

>In-Reply-To: <19970723161928171.AAA402@[192.168.2.7]>

>> There will be an Imperial "FBI", "CIA" etc. The Imperium probably is 
still
>> using local forces and integrating them at the time of proclamation.

>Imperial Ministry of Justice.
>______________________________________________________________________
>Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

>------------------------------

Yes the MoJ seems to be the FBI for the 3I.

As for CIA, I would have to go with the Bureau of Interstellar Affairs (BIA)
These are your Men and Women In Black. Your 'double 0's' etc...

Just look at what these guys get into(From M:0 Book)
They Spy on Pocket Empires.
They 'persuade' worlds to join 3I
Assasination Attemps of PE leaders who have become a 'threat to security'
Non stellar worlds are monitored with sursats, to 'observe for possible 
inception'
Encourage uprisings and coup-detat's on non-member worlds.

Sound familiar? (FNORD!)

These guys are worse(better?) than Naval Inteligence, who are just simply 
military in nature.

Oh, and even though they say they don't engage in secret psioinic reserch, 
you gonna believe that? (FNORD!)

Of course you are not cleared for any of this information. ;-)

 ------------------------
Commander X
(Not to be confused with the conspiracy theorist of the same name. FNORD!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:48:56 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

I tend to agree this will turn out to be nothing of use.  BUT it needs
to be examined, and is interesting to talk about.  Just because the
scientific community doesn't recognize something is important doesn't
mean it isn't. (Nevertheless it's a pretty good pointer.) Until just a
few years ago "they" thought stomach ulcers were caused by too much
acid, and dismissed a guy who said they were primarily caused by
bacteria.  They blew him off for years.  And he was right.  So much for
scientific community.  Only science, experiment and proof proof proof
mean anything, not the ingrained opinions of tenured members of the
"scientific community."  

Whether the result is a purely mathematical phenomenon or of real
utility is what I want to find out.  Only way to examine this further is
see the documentation and an abstract of the experiment.

As far as I know, this was a tunneling effect only.  I'll search for the
abstract.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:45:43 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems

Sam Thomas wrote:
> 
> I can send you a excel spreadsheet that does all the MT ship design system.
> It is in excel for PC. Interested?

I'm definitely interested in this, although I'm not the poster of
the original questions. Please send it to me as well.

Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:42:44 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re : LHyd fuel

It has been said:

*********************************
Chlorine, while unpleasant is not a problem. Swimming pools have low
amou=
nts
of chlorine in them and they are relatively safe. Ok, we're dealing with
higher amounts here, but then our average starship crew ain't going
swimm=
ing
in the purification tanks ( which I assume are sealed off ) !

Anyhow, we only want the hydrogen unless we are powering fuel cells, so
w=
ho
cares about the chlorine / oxygen evolved ? Vent them, dump them,
whateve=
r.
********************************

You must be careful though--I've done this electrolysis with salt water
before (I'm sure we all have in high school physical science) and what
you don't see in the 1 hr lab is that this chlorine REALLY does a
corrosion number on the electrode (copper in this case).  I think you
could get around this by using some more inert electrode (platinum
perhaps?) but then the chlorine is going to try and react with
something.  Again this doesn't make things totally unworkable...line the
inside of the tanks with the same non-corrosive plating.  This could
lead to some interesting shipboard problems it the tech at the last
starport didn't repair that hole from the fuel hit properly (I suppose
we could say that hulls are non-corrosive--but IMHO withstanding by
withstanding vacuum, high (ocean bottom) pressures, extremely low temps
(distant space), extremely high temps (gas giant & near star ops), the
hull is already doing quite a job and should not me made invincible to
corrosion--I'm all for resistant but not non-corrosive.)  In addition,
remember that even if your tank lining is flawless, you are going to
have lines that carry this stuff away to be dumped and Cl is VERY bad
for you health in relatively small quantities (although higher I guess
than your average swimming pool) and a pretty unhappy way to
go--drowning in your own mucus.

Of course if you purify the water first and then add just a little bit
of sulfuric acid you get the H2(g) and O2(g) as everyone has said
earlier.  You then must protect against that but I believe it would be
much easier because 1) I think more materials are resistant to it and
2)the concentration required is very small.  (also I am unsure as to
whether electrolysis can be done without H2SO4 if enough power is
supplied--but I do know at least that H2SO4 catalyses the reaction so it
can be done at lower voltages--i.e. a 1.5 volt battery and pure H20 get
you nowhere as pure waters resisance is to high, but a 1.5 volt battery,
water, and H2SO4 or NaCl produce results.  Again--I'm not sure , but it
would seem that at high enough voltage it can be done without a
catalyst.  I imagine that this is the method that has been being refered
to in previous electrolysis posts as no catalyst was ever mentioned.

I apologize for this if the reason people didn't post about the catalyst
was because it is painfully obvious to everybody....

TT

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:48:44 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: psi institutes

On 24 Jul 97 at 18:04, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <404F3D35731@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>
> 
> Volker,
> 
> > -> 
> > -> Still, B5 returns tonight so that's something to look forward to!
> > Growl, Germany's station hasn't even started to plan for the return 
> > of Bab5, growl...
> 
> Does everybody here know about Claudia Christian leaving?

Gee man, thanmks for the spoiler. I needed to know that.

/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:23:04 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1590

Marc sent:
> 
> In a message dated 97-07-21 23:24:34 EDT, you write:
> 
> << 
>  This is more of a slogan that discribes the Imperium approach
>  rather than a constitutional rule to be applied to every situation.
> >>
> 
> So, a new world cedes to the Imperium perhaps 1% (5 hexes) of the mainworld
> surface, 20% of each of the secondary worlds (either specifically, or as
> options if the worlds are unsurveyed or unsettled). It gets half of each
> planetoid belt.

Hmm. Ceding parts of the system sounds a bit too much, considering how 
useful it is in a space-faring civilization. I'm not even sure that 
'ceding' is the right word anyway, I always assumed that whatever fief a 
noble held, they got some income from it, but did not control the lives of 
the inhabitants in any way - they were still citizens of world X and the 
imperium, not Baron Flibble's serfs.

Planets themselves would want to have nobles associated with them anyway, 
to represent them in the moot. What possibly happens is that a world is 
allowed a noble of rank n, where 'n' depends on the importance of said 
world. The planet's government is asked if it wishes to have one of it's 
citizens elevated to represent them, or maybe even elected. If the planet 
assents the Imperium drops their Imperial Taxes by X percent for a 
period of time to cover the cost of acquiring territory on the planet for
the noble, then title of the purchased land is given to the noble on the 
understanding that he represents the planet(or town, continent, whatever).

On planets with a long noble presence the local royalty will probably be 
co-opted as Imperial Nobility. 

In 1100 with the nobility well established most nobles will be that - 
nobles, but in Milleau 0 there will be a larger percentage of 'appointed' 
nobles - those who are selected to represent a government.

There's an article in Traveller's Digest 9 or 10 on Nobles in the third 
Imperium, I haven't had time to browse through it, but it may be worth 
referring to - as it is pretty much canon.

I'm actually running a noble character in my current MT game, a son of 
the Count of Shibashiim, in Core sector. As a Baron he represents one of 
the systems industrialized moons, but only recieves income through his 
father. He has the honour of representing the people on the moon, but 
gains no income directly from it. This would handle the problem of 'what 
land do we give our son/daughter?' It doesn't matter - for they won't 
really own it - neither will the Noble parent.

Good incentive to go out into the galaxy and tame it for the empire - 
Mother's threatening to cut off the stipend and the Imperium's supporting 
colonization missions into the wilds.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:59:08 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: LOL

sorry, I know this isn't specifically Traveller but...it does seem to be
TML so....

what does LOL stand for?  I have been able to work out most of these
that I have seen on the list but LOL still eludes me.  Sorry for being
ignorant....but its my defining characteristic ;-}

Thanks

TT

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:15:02 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: B5 was Psi institues

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) writes:
>In-Reply-To: <404F3D35731@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>
>Volker,
>> -> Still, B5 returns tonight so that's something to look forward to!
>> Growl, Germany's station hasn't even started to plan for the return 
>> of Bab5, growl...
>Does everybody here know about Claudia Christian leaving?

  NO!  I just checked the Lurker site about two weeks ago.  What's the deal?


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Meatspace" - The physical world (as opposed to the virtual world), also 
"carbon community."
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:26:39 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: psi institutes

Andrew Boulton writes: 

>Does everybody here know about Claudia Christian leaving?

   If you mean the contract dispute that she had with the producers,
yes.  Apparently she wanted to take some episodes off this coming season
and they said forget it.

   No telling who is at fault or exactly what the real story is.  I'd be
curious as to whether this is a case of SAS (Spoiled, Short-Sighted
Actor Syndrome) or if management blew it.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:22:16 -0500
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>
Subject: FBI in 3I

Being a Traveller GM since 1977, I had to develop my own organizational
infrastructure for the Imperium, which I use today. Anything involving
justice or law enforcement comes under the Ministry of Justice (MOJ).
The MOJ includes the Imperial Police Force, the MOJ Special Branch, The
Imperial Marshal Service, the Imperial Courts, as well as an
Inspectorate.

The Imperial Police (ImPol) operates much like a national police force
and has a good reputation. It has an enforcement division for general
crime-fighting; a security division, charged with the protection of
witnesses and the Imperial Courts; and a Criminal Intelligence Division
(CID) which collects intelligence and conducts surveillance against
criminal and terrorist organizations.

The MOJ Special Branch operates much like the FBI or Scotland Yards
Special Branch. It does the hardcore investigative work involving crimes
conducted on Imperial property or against Imperial officials.

The Inspectorate has a mandate from the Emperor and is staffed with
investigators who have noble rank themselves. They investigate criminal
activities involving other nobility or even members of the royal family
(in theory anyway). It also serves an Internal Affairs function when
other Imperial law enforcement personnel are involved in crimes.

In my universe the Imperial Courts fall under this Ministry also. The
Imperial Judges and Attorneys are appointed by the Emperor as
recommended by the Minister of Justice. They have a fair reputation and
are mostly honest. 

I also created the Imperial Marshal Service which functions more like
the Texas Rangers of the old west or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Found on frontier or back worlds (generally Imperial protectates or
"reserved" worlds) and mostly operating alone, or with a partner and
occassionally with a trusty genetically-enhanced smart-horse and
smart-dog. They're not as fond of the technology and many resort to
carrying lever-action rifles and quickdraw revolvers. Many are also
stationed on Imperial outposts or mining colonies, much like in the
movie "Outland". These are a rugged breed of men not much on the social
graces and with a strong sense of honor and duty to the law.

I've also developed the Ministry of Security which oversees the Imperial
Secret Service (ISS), the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Psi Corps
(Yes, I developed this organization many years before B5).

The Imperial Secret Service performs much of the same duties of any
intelligence organization (like the CIA, KGB or Gestapo) and has
developed a negative reputation. Their activities are classified as is 
their organizational structure.  

The Imperial Guard has several branches and roles. Its personnel are
born into the Guard and their loyality to the Emperor is unquestionable.
The Palace Guard protects the Palace and the Emperor and his family. The
Emperor's Black Guard is an large elite military fighting force used by
the Emperor for special operations. They have their own starships and
the latest in weapontry and technology. They could be likened to the
German SS divisions of WWII.

The Imperial Psi Corps are another secret organization with a questional
rep. The Emperor has given them license to use Psionics for the
protection of the Imperium.

If anyone else has any ideals please e-mail me at ingram@airmail.net.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:54:20 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

Alex Ingram wrote:
> 
> Being a Traveller GM since 1977, I had to develop my own organizational
> infrastructure for the Imperium, which I use today. Anything involving
> justice or law enforcement comes under the Ministry of Justice (MOJ).
> The MOJ includes the Imperial Police Force, the MOJ Special Branch, The
> Imperial Marshal Service, the Imperial Courts, as well as an
> Inspectorate.

Just thought I'd drop my Cr2 into this conversation. In a recent
adventure I did I in the M0 era (year 15) I had the Imperial Security
Agency (ISA) involved.  What I figured them to be is anagalous to the
United States' CIA, that is, there job is in assessing external threats
and spying outside the Imperium's territory (is that analogy correct?).

I had them as a direct descendent of the Sylean Security Bureau (SSB),
and had them have strong ties to the IISS as well.  They often use
outsiders (ie. PCs) as scouts in their security missions without letting
the PCs in on the whole truth.  For example, in my adventure an Imperial
Recontact Team had gone missing, and the ISA wanted it kept quiet.  They
hired PCs to go to a planet and survey the area for radio signals,
knowing that hey would detect the Recontact Team.  Thus, withotu
informing the characters, the ISA got the team back as it wanted.

Haven't really done much more on them, as I used that quickly as an
adventure hook, and since my campaign has moved out of Imperial space
(way out) it's of no use now.

Thanks.

- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:28:21 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: LOL

- --------------B5B00B5A34FDC3E3E7F16905
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> what does LOL stand for?
>
Laughing Out Loud

- --------------B5B00B5A34FDC3E3E7F16905
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>what does LOL stand for?</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Laughing Out Loud</HTML>

- --------------B5B00B5A34FDC3E3E7F16905--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:18:49 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Nobles Land

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> I envision many land grants being given to nobles on worlds well
beyond the
> Imperial borders, and the noble needing to go to that grant and survey
it (or
> have someone survey it). Until surveyed, the land produces no income;
once
> surveyed (and developed) etc.

This would be how the pool of "true" Land Holding Nobles is increased.
If a world is populated then the grant can only happen as the world is
integrated into the Imperium as the Nobles are the force that bind the
Imperial Worlds together and all worlds must have noble representation
(In some worlds case they have many nobles while others just as sizable
have only one).
If a world is unpopulated then the act of granting a noble exploitation
rights to an area creates a new member world and the colony is started.

For example:
A company wishes to exploit a world - they petition the emperor (they
are an Imperial Company with several Nobles on the board) and win
permission.  They could (with the emperors permission) establish fiefs
for the Nobles on the board, or they could enoble another member of the
board, or they could increase the size of the board with a new noble, or
they could come to some sort of deal and pay a noble a fee for the
exploitation of his fief.
In any case the government type is 1 and the colony is up and running.
Later in the colonies life it is taken over by a religious dictatorship
:( but the noble continues to get his income based on levies etc... and
passes on the Imperial Percentage or the Imperial Navy is ordered to
"Sort It Out".

To summarise:
A nobles income is seldom from a fief in the term used in the past, but
rather is a cut of the Imperial Levies and Taxes for the region the
noble is responsible for.  A nobles standing is improved if the Taxes
and Levies are Improved (i.e POP, and TL increase, or trade is
improved[and taxed]).
While Nobles may have estates in the 100's of kilometers they create
personal income as related to the investment that the noble has
personally made, rather than the cut the noble gets for administering
that part of the Imperium.

Brody Dunn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:35:12 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: IG Web Page & mailing list

Hi,

Just curious bit whatever happened to Dave Bullock's mailing list of
news and the promised bi-weekly update to the IG web page.  As far as I
can see it's quite out of date, the ast bit of news was June 17th (new
reader survey) and the Product schedule doesn't list "Anomalies" and
"Psionic Institutes" as available. 

I realize they're busy with proofreading, creating and editing new
products for T4 but still, an update every so often would be nice.

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1603
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, July 25 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1604



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Is t4 Traveller?
Re: LOL
Re: PCs and nobles
Roswell Conspiracy :-)
Re: Noble Lands
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Bounty hunting
Re: Planning Traveller Design
Re:Charleton Heston as Richeli
RTF Copy of Marc's CHARGEN.ZIP wanted
More fuel related discussion
MT Vehicle and Starship design
Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question:
Deep Space
Roswell
Re: PCs and nobles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:16:37 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Is t4 Traveller?

>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:48:33 -0400
>From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
>Subject: Re: Planning for Traveller Design
>
>Leroy William Lu Guatney writes:
>>That is why I have been so vocal about how I see just _how_ compatible the
>>guys doing T4 stuff are.  They have done a good job of backward
>>compatibility and should be commended for it.
>
>   Should we lavish gifts on them for spelling 'Imperium' correctly?
>Really, the evidence does not back up this statement.

No! (To Leroy: Are you reading the same T4 books I am??? They are all at
odds with previous cannon to a greater or lesser degree.)

>   It has come to the point, with me at least, where I am beginning
>think in terms of *two* seperate games when I talk about the primary
>subject of this mailing list.  One game is 'Traveller', a game produced
>by GDW which has a common storyline and three different sets of game
>mechanics (CT/MT/TNE) that take its common universe up to the Imperial
>year 1202.  The other is 'Marc Miller's Traveller', a game produced by
>IG that uses many common story and mechanical elements from 'Traveller',
>but is sufficently different so as to constitute a *seperate* game.
>Just as 'Traveller: 2300' was not 'Traveller', neither is 'Marc Miller's
>Traveller'.  While we have become accustom to calling 'Marc Miller's
>Traveller' "T4", that designation is a rather unfortunate one, because
>it increases the expectations older players have to levels that IG seems
>unable to comply with.
>
Just like TNE was sufficiently different from CT/MT that it was not truly
compatable, T4 is also likewise incompatable with BOTH ct/mt and TNE. Not
that I inherently dislike any of the 4 editions, but T4 is barely the same
feel as any previous editions.

>   The alternative to thinking of 'Marc Miller's Traveller' as a
>seperate game is continued frustration as it becomes increasingly
>difficult (nay impossible) to reconcile everything under the 'Traveller'
>name.

Agreed. Here's where I beg MM to do a reprint editions of MT (with the
erratta applied) in two volumes (PM/IE/COACC, RM/RC/RebSB/HT)...
<grovelling on floor> Please???</grovelling>

seriously, though, the cannon is too intricate for those barely familiar
with it (as several IG types admitted at various points early on) to be
able to add to it in any consistent manner. So Marc, scrub it all before
you break it all.  CT, MT, and TNE survive. If only through the love of
their players. T4 is developing a different audience, as did Traveller
2300...

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:08:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: LOL

In a message dated 97-07-24 19:35:04 EDT, you write:

<< what does LOL stand for?  I have been able to work out most of these
  >>

Laughing Out Loud

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:14:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

In a message dated 97-07-24 21:29:39 EDT, you write:

<< 
 > How about _Megacorporations_ - a kind of Pocket Empires for the traders
 > amongs us?
 > Or _Sword and Blaster_ for the detailing of duels (perhaps an update to En
 > Garde? [1])
 > Or some detailing of computers and how they work in Traveller?
 > Or...
  >>
I would like to see all of these.

But specifically, I could see...

MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.

Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.

What else?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:28:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Roswell Conspiracy :-)

The most common form of extraterrestrial alien described by so-called
"abductees" are called "grays."  These ETs are described as being short, 
grey-skinned, with large eyes that are completely black, having strange
mystical or psychic powers, and using items of incredible technology.  

All throughout history, mankind has had legends of winged messengers of the
gods (demon and angels) having strange supernatural powers.  

Now think about this . . . 

Droyne were the Ancients (specifically, Yaskoydray and his offspring).  
Droyne are, on the average, shorter than humans.  
Droyne have grey skin, large solid-black eyes, and wings.  
Droyne have psionic powers.  
As the Ancients, they had items of incredible technology.  

Here's more . . . 

The Ancients conducted genetic experiments on humanity (and on Vargr, but
they aren't here on Earth, so we don't know about that! :-).  

"Greys" are reported to conduct strange medical experiments on the people
they capture.  And don't forget about those strange cattle mutilations in
the Midwest!  

Yaskoydray is known to have "agents" spying on various "projects still in
the works" (as revealed in various sources, such as _Vilani & Vargr_ and
some back issues of _Challenge_).  

Every week, tabloids report on space aliens masquerading as people.  

It's ALL TRUE!!!  I've got *HUNDREDS* of examples!!!  
I could go on for hours!!!  There's so much to . . .  Hello, who are you?  

Mr. Cain, we're from the FDA.  We want to talk to you about those corn
chips you ate with your lunch today.  

Corn chips?  I don't know what you're talking about.  What corn chips?  

We didn't mention corn chips, Mr. Cain.  As we said, we're from the Red
Cross.  We'd like to talk to you about your organ donor card.  

I'm not an organ donor.  

We didn't mention organ donation.  As we said, we're from the Post Office.  

Huh?  What?  

Please pay attention.  Look over here.  

What's going--

<ZAP!>

You will forget *everything* about this.  It *doesn't* exist!  
We were *never* here. . .  Okay, let's go.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:18:16 -0500
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:15:51 -0400 (EDT) CardSharks@aol.com

>So, a new world cedes to the Imperium perhaps 1% (5 hexes) of the mainworld
>surface, 20% of each of the secondary worlds (either specifically, or as
>options if the worlds are unsurveyed or unsettled). It gets half of each
>planetoid belt.

Well, I would guess that the amounts would be a matter of negotiation.
Getting 20% of secondary worlds (which could be significant in pop
and economic value) and 50% of a planetoid belt (which can be very
significant in value)  would seem a bit steep for a system that is
joining voluntarily (or at least with out big opposition).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:54:25 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

Hi,

> But specifically, I could see...
> 
> MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
> 
> Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
> 
> What else?

Basically, I believe that a lot of the careers should have their own
book for grandeouse (eek! sp?), and larger than single character
adventures.  Pocket Empires is obviously aimed at the noble family, and
noble careers, as is the upcoming Nobles book.  The product listing also
has Imperial Squadrons which supposedly will detail fleets constructio,
fleet batles etc, obviously an expansion of the Navy class.  

What's being ignored here is the need for a mass scale ground combat
system, to complement the Army career, plus come kind of book, perhaps
named "Syndicates" to complement the running of an organized crime
bureau.

So:

PE & Nobles for the Noble career
Imperial Sqaudrons for the Navy
"Megacorporations" for the Merchant
"Syndicates" for the Rogue

Personally, I can't see any large scale things for the scholar career,
except perhaps detailing lab work, etc. on a much bigger scale than a
single person.  Even so, I can't see that being that exciting, IMHO. 
The same goes for Agents and Entertainers, I don't think the running of
an acting troupe of police agency is too Traveller-esque.

However, I do think both the "Syndicates" and "Megacorporations" ideas
could work, perhaps within the same volume, which would detail both
legal and illegal means of business. 

Is IG planning a mass combat system ala Seeker, etc. to complement the
Army though?  This work work best is it, along with the upcoming
Imperial Squadrons to supplement PE's combat system?

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:41:50 -0700
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bounty hunting

> Date:          Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:59:19 +0100
> From:          SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>
> There is a good article in an early White dwarf (in the range 70 to 80) on
> Bounty Hunting. (Not too hand unfortunately). 

Issue 70, Oct '85 (ah, the good ol' days of White Dwarf)


- --
Edward Swatschek  *  edjs@bitslayer.net
                     edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:17:53 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes: 

>Hey, perhaps the list encourages more careful posting, but someone with
>my experience at analyzing the game has a long, rich tradition of
>"knowing" the Traveller Universe.  I do understand that something as
>provocative as what I was saying does need an explanation of the reasoning
>behind it.  Even having said all that, the emotional aspects of the list
>were something I absolutely could not have forseen.

   You have landed in the middle of the Traveller and Marc Miller's
Traveller (T&MMT) equivalent of New York City.  In your first few days
here, you managed to piss off several taxi drivers, get mugged, and
nearly run over by a truck because you weren't paying attention (maybe
you were too busy staring at all the tall buildings).  Welcome to New
York, have a nice f---ing day.

>This is like I pointed out in my Edsel Gouch's Traveller campaign example.
>He stopped reading and playing the "published universe" after _Rescue on
>Ruie_ in JTAS #1.  And nobody is twisting his arm to do otherwise, however,
>he should realize that he made some choices with his campaign setting that
>just don't apply to those who chose to go forward.

   I think you are missing my point.  The published universe of Marc
Miller's Traveller is not the same universe as the Traveller we all know
and love up until Feb. 1996.  While there are similarities, there are
also many differences in terms of game mechanics and storyline. 
Disconnecting the two eliminates many conflicts.

   I understand why you feel it necessary to try to patch them together
Leroy, but it isn't going work.

>If they find some classic products from dealers like myself, and pick it up
>and see how it all fits together, they benefit from knowing that they have
>jumped into a pool whose temperatures vary with depth, the color differs
>from one part of the pool to another, and the reflections and colors of the
>clouds and sky change from different angles, depending upon where one
>sits/swims; and that is no different than all of the rest of us and our
>collective experience since 1977--Traveller is the Mother, Traveller is the
>Father. :)

   Someone new to Marc Miller's Traveller will likely become confused by
the contradictory information in the old books.  These contradictions
will grow over time as the writers of MMT diverge further and further
from Traveller canon.

   Traveller is indeed the "father" of Marc Miller's Traveller, but just
as a son is not his father, so MMT is not Traveller.  Call it the next
generation if you must, but it is *different*.

>I think it is an attitude choice that each and every one of us have, and
>have full control over.  Take my Aslan Major/Minor race aspect.  At the
>time the TD ish came out, I didn't like the twist on a Major race, something
>that was clearly "canon" before.

   You are talking about a very minor issue (no pun intended).  The
revelation that the Aslan copied a jump drive instead of inventing it
did nothing to the Aslan Hierate, nor did it change the unfolding of
future events.  "Secret of the Ancients" was the same way.  The PCs get
to meet Grandfather and get to experience a taste of *really* high
technology.  This means exactly diddley-squat to the big picture.  Game
balance was maintain.  Fusion Plus (a MMT invention) on the other hand
totally changes game balance and re-writes history.  A TL 15 Rule of Man
totally changes game balance and re-writes history.  There are other
things, but you get the idea.

>Maybe Marc should have let TNE wither on the vine for a few years without
>GDW, to give everyone that same perspective a lot of us felt when TNE
>finally appeared.  But I am happy he did not.

   Funny you should mention TNE, because despite of how it made the
future turn out for the Third Imperium, despite the introduction of
Heplars and everything else, it did not invalidate a single event prior
to 1130.  The same thing can't be said of Marc Miller's Traveller.

   Marc chose to take the basic concepts of his old game and develop a
new one from it.  I do not begrudge him that--it is his right as the
copyright holder.  In his shoes, I may have even made some of the same
choices (though I would also have done many things differently).  But it
is important to remember that it is a *new* game, and not the same one
we "old farts" remember.

>As for the "anxiety, frustration, and even anger for" some of you, I have
>shown _a_ way that you can have your cake and eat it too.  I am not offended
>if some did not like it, but hey, that's just me.

   I'm afraid not.  If you chose to spend your time trying to glue
together MMT and Traveller, I wish you well (though your time would be
better spent on developing projects for MMT).  The rest of us from the
Old Guard would do well to continue to develop Traveller amongst
ourselves, and borrow from Marc Miller's Traveller those things which we
like.  Borrowing is also a Traveller tradition after all.

>Yeah, maybe there are problems, but someone (especially me) who wants to
>have fun, will not let the "little" things get in the way.  We are born
>improvisers--that is perhaps the vernacular definition of role-playing.
>
>Come on, the game is afoot!

   The current cost of Marc Miller's Traveller is $302.40 and that
figure will go up considerably after GenCon in August.  I look at the
CT, MT, and TNE books on my shelf (God knows how much I spent on them
all) and realize that MMT invalidates many of them (eventually probably
all of them).  I read and participate in the clashes between those that
follow the "new" canon versus the "old" canon.  Rumors of rewriting
history after 1129 crop up.  I don't want to use D6 for task
resolution.  I ask why.

   Making the disconnect solves the problem.  My wallet is safe.  My
Traveller collection is still valid.  I don't worry about what the new
books rewrite.  I create my own ending to the TNE storyline and share it
with other TNE fans for debate and criticism.  I use my D20s.  I am at
peace.  I am having fun.

   That is what it's all about, right Leroy?  Having fun, not just doing
things because someone with ulterior motives tells you to?

Regards,

Harold
(Serene Traveller Fan, no longer a heretic)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 06:37:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re:Charleton Heston as Richeli

On Tue, 22 Jul 97 18:04 BST-1, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote...

> T4M was on one of the satellite stations over here last night...
    For those who are interested, the History Channel will be showing The Four
Musketeers on this Sunday Night at 9 PM Eastern Standard Time.  I recomend it
to you highly!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: RTF Copy of Marc's CHARGEN.ZIP wanted

Marc Miller recently emailed many folks here (including me) a copy of his
latest chargen rules as a large zip file.  Unfortunately for me it was in
MS Word format.  Could anyone email me a copy in RTF or MS Works format? 

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:22:02 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: More fuel related discussion

Hi All,

First of all, an apology. Compuserve
seems to mangle my postings at the
minute, so I am trying to prevent
this happening by using shorter
lines. Here goes -

Nick Munn wrote:-

> However, it requires much less *work* than =
> electrolysis, because it's spontaneous i.e. =
> no external work is required.  You can =
> recover a proportion of the difference in =
> energies by exchanging heat between =
> the high-temperature H2/O2/H2O) mixture =
> and the water about to be =
> cracked.  Plus you don't have the =
> inefficiencies of generating the =
> electricity.

But you do have Hydrogen at 4000K which must be =
cooled and compressed, as opposed to Hydrogen =
at a more reasonable temperature generated by
electrolysis. Even if you do exchange heat =
between the input water and the output products, =
I can't see that this is going to help much
 - say I cool my output Hydrogen to 400K =
- - that's still much higher than the Hydrogen from =

electrolysis :-)

Heat Dissociation requires me to heat the =
water to 4000K to start with, which as you
have demonstrated requires a lot more =
energy ( I suspect that you are neglecting
the energy required to get the water to =
4000K in the first place, and have only
calculated your figures using the extra =
energy required to thermally disassociate
the O-H bond. )

So with electrolysis I get cool products, =
and with thermal dissociation, I get =
high pressure high temperature products. =
I think the former would be easier
to handle, wouldn't they ?

> Easiest thing to do would be to calculate =
> total work done in compressing/cooling =
> H2 and then multiply by some factor to =
> represent the inefficiency.  A mixture =
> of reversible and irreversible processes =
> gives something like 12.7 kJ/mol for this
>  -- maybe as little as
> 6 kJ/mol.  This latter figure is roughly =
> 0.0075 MW-hour per m^3 of H2.
> It all depends on the intake =

> pressure/temperature of H2, which I =
> guessed at 10 atm and 200K.

Is this 0.0075 MW per hour per cubic =
metre of LHyd produced, or 0.0075 MW =
per hour per cubic metre of input =
gaseous hydrogen at 10
atm and 200K ?

What are the equations for calculating =
work done in compressing
and/or cooling a gas ?

And where did you get the figures =

of 12.7 kJ/mol etc from ?

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:50:09 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: MT Vehicle and Starship design

>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:44:02 -0400
>From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
>Subject: Mega Traveller & T4 Ship design problems
>
>        I may have a problem that I could not figure out with the ship design
>systems in Mega-Traveller and T4, so I have little recourse but to ask
>assistance from this group.
>
>        My problems are as follows:
>
>        1. In T4 I cannot find the Jump Drive Potential table, am I supposed to
>use an other table like it was the J potential table, or do I need to look
>somewhere else. If I have to look somewhere else, is it on the internet or
>in the rules book or both?

is missing from t4.0. JDrive %= Jn+1 where Jn is Jump Number, and % is
percentage of hull for drive. Fuel space is 10% of hull per Jn.

>        2. In Megatraveller, when designing a starship using the referee's
>manual,
>the CP section has me a little confused.  When you calculate the CP for a
>given section (Hull, Loco, electronics, etc.) The formula given is:
>CP=(Pr/100000)xTL  Now the way I see it the price/100K is to convert your
>total price for the section into Kcr is that right?  Or does it conver the
>price into Mcr?  I had assumed that the prices throughout the design
>process as being in Cr, and so I had converted the prices to Mcr
>automaticly.  Now that I am at this point I don't know if I had done the
>pricing correctly or not.

CP=(Pr/100,000)xTL=MCr * TL * 10

Pr is Price in Cr, TL is highest TL in that section or the ship or the
design's overall TL (You choose, but I figure many TL 14 & 15 ships will
have several areas using TL 13 or lower for ease of mainetnance). MCr is
Price in MCr. CP is FINAL CP REQUIRED for the section


>        3. In Megatraveller, when you purchase a computer, what is the CP
>Multiplier for, and how do I determine the number of inputs that I need?
>Ex. A scout/curiour panel=holodynamic linked x 181.  Where does the  x 181
>come from?

181 holodaynamic (Holographic) linked panels, inputing 271.5 CP to the
computer, which multiplies them by the CP Multiplier to find final CP out.
But, for building, I teach a reversed approach, as follows.

OK, a ship needs CP equalliung the required CP from all sections listed on
RM 81,. Lets say, for example, a ship had a total CP requirement (CPR) of
3000.

Next, pick a computer. Divide CPR by the CP Multiplier. The result is panel
cp needed (PCPN) If PCPN is greater than the listed maximum CP Input for
the computer, get a bigger computer. Also, remeber that you need 3
computers what match each other.

Examples:
<A>     CPR=3000
        Model   CPMult  Max CPIn        PCPN
        1       10      5000            300

<B>     CPR = 60000
        Mod     CPM     MxCPIn  PCPN
        1       10      5000    6000    Not meaty enough
        1/bis   15      7500    4000    Useable
        2       15      10,000  4000    Useable

Next, install panels (Step 8 Bridge, Substep 4, RM p 81) whose CP equals
PCPN or more. Generally, it is better to ballance out more panels and more
powerful computers, as Computer Model # has many combat effects. Linked
panels are the only ones that matter here, as well as add-ons.

If not installing a computer, all CPR must be met or exceeded with Basic
Mechanical, Enhanced Mechanical, or Electronic (NOT ELECTRONIC LINKED)
controls.


>        Please respond to scspieker@ncweb.com to conserve bandwidth from
>the TML,
>unless this is a common problem....
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Scott Spieker

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 04:09:46 -0700
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question:

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. postulated:
>>
>> And now, a Traveller trivia question:
>> Which race dabbled with psionics _without_ Zhodani assistance?
>> A hint - this race has made at least one major contribution to the
>> background setting of Traveller.
>>
>> Let's see if anyone can ID this race, state the source and proof of
>> the dabbling, and ID one of the major contributions.
>> It's a toughie, I'll admit.
>>
> The Droyne more than dabbled in psionics long before the Zhodani. 
> Sources are rampant in the canon -- start with the Droyne Alien Module. 
> Probably the most important contribution of the Droyne to the Traveller
> background is the dissemination of humans around known space.

Ah, but the key word is "dabbled". I considered stating the question as
"this humaniti race" but thought that might give it away. The race I was
thinking of is...the Darrians! For those of you who have the AM #8,
check out the advanced Navy character generation skill charts near the
back of the supplement. Skill #4 under "Special Arm" is Telepathy.

I never understood why the Zhodani didn't subvert the Darrians to gain
access to the remnant TL16 technology even though they must have
discovered the Star Trigger was initially a hoax through the use of
psionic covert agents. Not until I ran across this, that is. Kinda
difficult to infiltrate a branch of a foreign military which uses
Telepathy even if you're telepathic.

The Darrian major contributions are, of course, TL16 technology in
the Spinward Marches and the Star Trigger.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:48:13 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Deep Space

Hi,

	Crossing rifts in space has always been a problem. Ships that can't jump
across voids have to circumnavigate a route around any rift in order to
find their way across it.

	Then, on page 81 of Pocket Empires, in the 'War' section, it mentions deep
space depots that can be built in empty star hexes to support and refuel
ships to help them reach worlds that would otherwise be beyond their jump
range.

	So, unless I've got something wrong here, stellar empires can be noted as
being able to construct deep space resupply stations to enable ships to
reach out further than they ever could. Also, the PE rules state that a
pocket empire would at least have difficulty in attacking another pocket
empire that's far away enough. Yet, with a line of these resupply bases
PE's can attack slightly further out than I originally thought.

	I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the Traveller books
I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this something I've missed?
What references are there about them? Surely various empires would have
built these depots to cross rifts, saving time and money. The possibilities
here would be endless when you consider the DS9 and B5 type stations that
your players could come across.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at...http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 08:50:19 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Roswell

Does anybody still seriously believe in the UFO story?

Actually, does anybody seriously believe the US government could keep a
secret this long, especially one this big

For that matter, does anyone seriously think that ANY government can keep
something this big secret

Actually, the explanation is quite simple: it is a damaged Vilani jump
drive. By the time we will be able to understand it, we will be throughout
the solar system. At that point, the government will surreptitiously cart it
out to the asteroid belt, and "discover" the principles of jump drive. And
then, we're off

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:40:48 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

- -> I would like to see all of these.
- -> 
- -> But specifically, I could see...
- -> 
- -> MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.

I'd rather prefer something on a smaller (subsector-wide maybe) 
scale.
 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, July 25 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1605



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Noble Lands
Re: Adventure postings
Re: Deep Space
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: THUDDD distribution channels
Re: Roswell
Re: More fuel related discussion
T4.1 Characters
Re: THUDDD distribution channels
Re: Fusion Efficiency
Re: THUDDD distribution channels
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: LOL
Re: Deep Space
Re: B5 was Psi institues
Re: Fusion Reactors
Re: Noble Lands
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Deep Space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:11:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

In a message dated 97-07-25 06:24:38 EDT, you write:

<< Well, I would guess that the amounts would be a matter of negotiation.
  >>
Certainly subject to negotiation. There have to be reasons why everyone does
something. If 20% of each secondary world seems too much, let's talk.

(suitably phrased in diplomatic terms)
"So your world/system has been stagnating for 1700 years, as has this entire
region of space. We propose to make available from our factories a supply of
FusionPlus modules that effectively give everyone free portable power. This
will kickstart our economy and imporve the standard of living.

In return, you join the Imperium (you'll be surrounded by us within decades
anyway) and embrace free trade with other Imperium members. And you'll cede
us <description snipped> territory on your worlds. That territory is saller
if it already developed; larger if undeveloped. On your unsurveyed secondary
worlds, we'll take options."

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:19:05 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Adventure postings

>From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
>On 21 Jul 97 at 18:59, SD Mooney wrote:
>
>> In 14 years of playing Traveller, I've only had one or two psionic
>> players... (strange but true!).
>
>	*Nod* In 10 years of playing Traveller, I've had only one psionic PC 
>in my group - and even he was only a mere Telepathy-6 or something. 

        In all my campaigns, Psionics has been only a rumour, totally
unavailable to players. In my first campaigns, I even stated that psionics
did not exist, but, later, it was though to explain the Zhodani...
nevertheless, for me it's quite clear that, if the referee wants to,
Traveller campaigns can easily be psionics-free.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:15:36 +0100
From: John_Wood@cbtsys.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space

These types of deep space depots were first mentioned in CT (I think) in
connection with preparation for the fifth frontier war, as far as I can
recall (I'm at work and have no access to my traveller library). They were
set up at strategic locations in the spinward marches as caches of
mothballed ships that could be reactivated to strike at the Zhodani in the
event of renewed hostilities.
     They were also mentioned in the MT Rebellion Sourcebook, particularly
in connection with the scenario in that supplement (Nail Mission). They
were used to speed up communication across the great rift, between Corridor
and Gushemege, by Imperial intelligence agencies. They also featured
heavily in the TNE supplement describing the Domain of Deneb, where they
served as an advance line of the quarantine barrier against Virus.
     In any case, there is nothing to stop a starship in traveller jumping
into an empty deepspace hex except the requirement for fuel to jump back to
civilisation - this must either be taken with the ship on the first jump,
or cached at the exact coordinates the ship jumps to in deep space. The
size of each hex (3.26 LY across!) is such that you could have thousands of
bases and installations in each hex, each completely unaware of the others.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:47:19 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

Peter Miller wrote:

[snip]

>Personally, I can't see any large scale things for the scholar career,
>except perhaps detailing lab work, etc. on a much bigger scale than a
>single person.  Even so, I can't see that being that exciting, IMHO.

Strange... that precisely describes my feeling towards military and
mercantile careers <G>.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:29:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: THUDDD distribution channels

In mail you write:

>> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:14:11 -0500
>> From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
>> 
>> Craig Berry wrote:
>>  
>> > Would it perhaps be better to go to web presentation of the data,
>> > supplemented by direct email to anyone needing it, on request?  Would
>> > anyone object to that?  I fear this might reduce the already smallish
>> > response to the competitions -- is this fear justified?  Comments and
>> > suggestions are more than welcome.
>> 
>> Could you put it on an FTP server?  
>
> Not easily.  How would this be superior to having it on the web?  What
> environments offer FTP but not HTTP access tools?

Some shell accounts, also you can do ftp via email with a UUCP
connection, but you can't do web stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:26:48 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Roswell

>Does anybody still seriously believe in the UFO story?
>
>Actually, does anybody seriously believe the US government could keep a
>secret this long, especially one this big
>
>For that matter, does anyone seriously think that ANY government can keep
>something this big secret
>
>Actually, the explanation is quite simple: it is a damaged Vilani jump
>drive. By the time we will be able to understand it, we will be throughout
>the solar system. At that point, the government will surreptitiously cart it
>out to the asteroid belt, and "discover" the principles of jump drive. And
>then, we're off

You're right about almost everything except that it was planted by
Yaskoydroy (the Grey) to make us a major race and thus implicating us when
the baddies from the core coome to kill the bastard alien race that are
using their energy transfer system as jump drive. (all in non-canonical
speech ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:21:31 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More fuel related discussion

Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>

> First of all, an apology. Compuserve
> seems to mangle my postings at the
> minute, so I am trying to prevent
> this happening by using shorter
> lines.

Well, now you're getting more lines mangled 8-)
(I've edited quoted lines below for clarity.)

> Nick Munn wrote:-
> 
> > However, it requires much less *work* than =
> > electrolysis, because it's spontaneous i.e. =
> > no external work is required.  You can =
> > recover a proportion of the difference in =
> > energies by exchanging heat between =
> > the high-temperature H2/O2/H2O) mixture =
> > and the water about to be =
> > cracked.  Plus you don't have the =
> > inefficiencies of generating the =
> > electricity.
> 
> But you do have Hydrogen at 4000K which must be =
> cooled and compressed, as opposed to Hydrogen =
> at a more reasonable temperature generated by
> electrolysis. Even if you do exchange heat =
> between the input water and the output products, =
> I can't see that this is going to help much
>  - say I cool my output Hydrogen to 400K =
> - - that's still much higher than the Hydrogen from =
> electrolysis :-)

Well, about 100K higher, which is pretty trivial given that the heat 
capacity of H2 is 28.824 J/K/mol at constant pressure.  Hence to cool 
the equivalent of 1 m^3 of LH2 (1/14 tonne) by 100K requires the 
removal of 100 MJ of heat (not 200 -- heat capacity is for 1 mol H2).
Electrolysis costs 10 000 times the molar heat capacity i.e. 100 MJ 
is approximately 1% of the energy required for electrolysis.

O2 and H2O(g) have similar heat capacities, so if you cool the whole 
lot indiscriminately it may take more like 250 MJ / m^3 LH2.  If you 
have to cool it 400K that's still only 10% of the cost of 
electrolysis.

"Whole lot" here I use to mean the reaction mixture, which will be 
roughly 40/40/20 water / H2 / O2.

> Heat Dissociation requires me to heat the =
> water to 4000K to start with, which as you
> have demonstrated requires a lot more =
> energy ( I suspect that you are neglecting
> the energy required to get the water to =
> 4000K in the first place, and have only
> calculated your figures using the extra =
> energy required to thermally disassociate
> the O-H bond. )

Sigh.  OK, you want numbers with that?

Heat capacity of H2O(g) at constant pressure = 33.58 J/K/mol
ditto of liquid H2O = 75.29 J/K/mol
enthalpy of vaporisation of H2O = 40.656 kJ/mol at 373K, 1 atm

For water starting at 298K (25 C) and ending as 4000K steam, all at 1 
atm pressure,

(75 * 75.29 + 40656 + 3627 * 33.58) J/mol = 168.1 kJ/mol

which is something like 60% of the energy of electrolysis.  However, 
there are three points to make:

i) a proportion of this heat can be recovered from the products
ii) if done at constant volume, the work done in expanding the steam 
is zero and this saves up to R \Delta T = 8.314 J/K/mol * 3627 K
 = 30.1 kJ/mol
iii) if you have high-pressure, high-temperature steam and expand it 
through a throttle, it is possible to use the Joule-Thomson effect to 
heat the steam.  The effect of this is to simultaneously decrease the 
pressure and increase the temperature, which leads to an efficient 
conversion of steam into H2 and O2.  How much this will help I don't 
know, not having any data on the J-T coefficient for water, but it's 
a possible way to improve efficiency.

Total energy cost for the process is 

> So with electrolysis I get cool products, =
> and with thermal dissociation, I get =
> high pressure high temperature products. =

Low pressure, high temp. products, I'd say -- high p inhibits the 
reaction.

> I think the former would be easier
> to handle, wouldn't they ?

Lower T and p are both easier, yes...

> > Easiest thing to do would be to calculate =
> > total work done in compressing/cooling =
> > H2 and then multiply by some factor to =
> > represent the inefficiency.  A mixture =
> > of reversible and irreversible processes =
> > gives something like 12.7 kJ/mol for this
> >  -- maybe as little as
> > 6 kJ/mol.  This latter figure is roughly =
> > 0.0075 MW-hour per m^3 of H2.
> > It all depends on the intake =
> > pressure/temperature of H2, which I =
> > guessed at 10 atm and 200K.
> 
> Is this 0.0075 MW per hour per cubic =
> metre of LHyd produced, or 0.0075 MW =
> per hour per cubic metre of input =
> gaseous hydrogen at 10 atm and 200K ?

Oh, sorry, per m^3 of liquid H2.

> What are the equations for calculating =
> work done in compressing
> and/or cooling a gas ?

Well, if we assume ideal gases (no data for anything else),
work done *by* compression w is:

against const. external pressure p_ex,  w = p_ex \Delta V

reversible, const. T, w = nRT ln (V_final / V_initial)

adiabatic (e.g. mechanical compression of gas w/out other heating)
 w = - C_V \Delta T where C_V is the heat capacity at constant volume
(roughly equal to C_p - R)

minus sign means expansion decreases T

> And where did you get the figures =
> of 12.7 kJ/mol etc from ?

Creative use of the above 8-).  IIRC I assumed reversible, isothermal 
compression followed by adiabatic expansion cooling.  These are 
somewhat ideal numbers, therefore...  also used 20K as boiling point 
of H2.

Nick

Footnote:

I've been quoting where necessary from _Physical Chemistry_, P.W.
Atkins, OUP, 3rd edition (4th is similar).  All university level
general physical chemistry and molecular physics textbooks will have
a treatment of thermodynamics.

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 18:25 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: T4.1 Characters

I decided to try rolling up a few T4.1 characters recently, 2 Naval 
Officers and a Marine NCO. Some thoughts:

1. Do schools count as career terms for mustering out? IMHO they should 
if character graduates.

2. It's not as easy to get humongous levels as I thought, unless you 
want an extremely specialised character.

3. How does this grab people as a definition of what the level means:

0 - basic knowledge
2 - trained
4 - professional
6 - expert
8 - master

4. The Commission roll is too easy. It's almost impossible to generate 
an enlisted character!

5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.

6. Enlisted promotion is too rapid in first term.

7. Because of (5), officers get 1 extra skill per term.

______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:15:44 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: THUDDD distribution channels

At 22:29 24/07/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>> Could you put it on an FTP server?  
>>
>> Not easily.  How would this be superior to having it on the web?  What
>> environments offer FTP but not HTTP access tools?
>
>Some shell accounts, also you can do ftp via email with a UUCP
>connection, but you can't do web stuff.
>
	Um...I think you still can actually. You can access almost anything via
email on the InterNet. If you check out "Doctor Bob's Guide to Offline
Internet Access" it'll tell you how to retrieve any type of file that
normally resides on Web or FTP sites. I know it works because I've used it
in the past.

	Retrieving by email sometimes makes sense. If your ISP's connection to the
net is having a bad day and is pretty slow and you want to download a large
file, you can send email commands to 'get' a file via email. The fle will
then arrive at your ISP's server, and you can then retreive it via email
when it's ready. Because your connection to this file is just to your ISP,
it'll come down at pretty much full speed without having to go through all
them nasty slow servers that makes up the connection to the files original
physical location. Or that's the way I perceive it as working anyway.

	The Doctor Bob document will tell you how to do it. It's a few years old,
but it may still have enough in it to be of use. Anyone who wants it, I'll
send it to you, it's too long to post here.

	Sorry this isn't too Traveller related, but it does help some people get
Traveller files, if it still works that is.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:44:09 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Fusion Efficiency

Moin David A. Bussey,

> I read in The Standard Ship Design System (beta) that 1.0m^3 of fuel has
> a mass of 0.007 metric tonnes (or 7 kg).  That is where I got the 7kg of
> deuterium.  Does this seem about right?

	Nope Traveller PP traditionaly use standart H2 for their PP,
	perhaps with the C-N-O chain as katalysator.

	BTW : can you mail me the equations (I hope I understand them ;-)

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 20:06:39 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD distribution channels

Moin Craig Berry,

> Not easily.  How would this be superior to having it on the web?  What
> environments offer FTP but not HTTP access tools?

	its usual to provide http for users, and ftp for the staff
	(doing upload/deletes/etc). The only reson a user would prefer
	ftp, is that many ftp servers offer a tar.gz download of
	a full directory tree.

	So if posible set up your ftp server, so it can access the
	SAME files as the http server (and use one of these better
	ftp servers for compressed download)

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:36:32 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:16:37 -0800
aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman) writes:
Subject: Is t4 Traveller?
>
>No! (To Leroy: Are you reading the same T4 books I am??? They are all at
>odds with previous cannon to a greater or lesser degree.)
>
>William F. Hostman		

I disagree, though I am not too big on canon, it does make compatibility
with all the books I own kind of nice. :)

  (If you are LOL right now having heard that from me, consider that
   pre-conceived notions about my approach to canon may be wrong.  I
   had a pre-conceived notion about TML that canon is the Mother and
   canon is the Father.  I may have been wrong there, but that is how
   I chose to start the discussion of RoM TL.

   BTW, until Marc posted his use of LOL, I was using an older, less
   suitable interpretation of "Little Old Lady", so now I am "laughing
   out loud." :)

I think _any_ Traveller adventure/booklet/idea/era/amber zone/ship's locker
etc. is exactly _what we_ make of it.

IMO,


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:05:24 -0700
From: David Kenney <dkenney@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: LOL

At 04:59 PM 97/07/24 -0400, you wrote:
>sorry, I know this isn't specifically Traveller but...it does seem to be
>TML so....
>
>what does LOL stand for?  I have been able to work out most of these
>that I have seen on the list but LOL still eludes me.  Sorry for being
>ignorant....but its my defining characteristic ;-}
>
>Thanks
>
>TT
>
>

LOL = Laughing Out Loud

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:11:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk> wrote

>Hi,

>        Crossing rifts in space has always been a problem. Ships that 
>can't jump across voids have to circumnavigate a route around any rift 
>in order to find their way across it.
>        Then, on page 81 of Pocket Empires, in the 'War' section, it 
>mentions deep space depots that can be built in empty star hexes to 
>support and refuel ships to help them reach worlds that would otherwise 
>be beyond their jump range.

<snip>

>        I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the 
>Traveller books I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this 
>something I've missed?  What references are there about them? Surely 
>various empires would have built these depots to cross rifts, saving 
>time and money. The possibilities here would be endless when you consider 
>the DS9 and B5 type stations that your players could come across.

This is actually an occassion when IG didn't violate exisitng Canon.  In
DGP's Traveller's Digest # 19 mentions fuel depots being used by the Aslan
to cross the Riftspan Reaches rift.  It's a natural enough idea that I'd
expect that every major race has used it (especially early on when Jump 1
was the maximum). 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:31:46 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: B5 was Psi institues

This is an impassioned plea to everyone:

Please, *please*, *PLEASE* don't discuss B5 events on the list!

'Nuff said.
 
John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:18:48 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactors

>It occurs to me that one of the frequenters of this list
>ha an MIT Plasma Physics lab URL.  I really would welcome some
>comments on this information.

Unfortunately, that guy is just a Fiscal person.  Although he admires and
is attempting to follow the conversation, he is a bit lost in the theory
end.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
brenton@psfc.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 21:28 BST-1
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

In-Reply-To: <199707240712.DAA27821@phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM>
VolantZep wrote in Digest #1600:

> My question is should every noble have property? 
> If the Nobility is hereditary and the father squanders the
> fortune, leavinghis decents nothing but a title, seems likely
> that the table should includethe chance of having nothing

Is a noble without property really a noble? One of the obligations 
of medieval aristocracy was to 'live nobly' (a vague term, but 
everyone seemed to know what it meant). If a family was unable to 
maintain its social position and was reduced to living in a mud 
hut it would forfeit its noble status. So if the father squanders 
the fortune, the son can only petition the Emperor to succeed to 
the title if he can convince a council of his peers (other 
subsector nobles) that he will be able to live in a suitably grand 
manner.

On the subject of noble property, vast amount of MegaCorporation 
stock, according to old Supplement 8, was in the hands of noble 
families -- 8% of LSP, 35% of General Products. Now was this 
because the founders of the MegaCorps were able to buy themselves 
titles, or did the noble families accept stock in exchange for 
granting the MegaCorps exploitation rights/market concessions in 
their fiefs?

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:33:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In a message dated 97-07-25 14:46:24 EDT, you write:

<<
I decided to try rolling up a few T4.1 characters recently, 2 Naval 
 Officers and a Marine NCO. Some thoughts:
 
 1. Do schools count as career terms for mustering out? IMHO they should 
if character graduates.

My thought is that Academy schooling counts to muster out (Military Academy,
Naval Academy, Merchant Academy). Schooling while in service counts. Service
before enlisting doesn't.

 2. It's not as easy to get humongous levels as I thought, unless you 
 want an extremely specialised character.

!

 3. How does this grab people as a definition of what the level means:
 
 0 - basic knowledge
 2 - trained
 4 - professional
 6 - expert
 8 - master
 
 4. The Commission roll is too easy. It's almost impossible to generate 
 an enlisted character!

Comments from others?

 5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.

Ditto?

 6. Enlisted promotion is too rapid in first term.

This is caused by the compression of ranks at the lower enlisted level.. (E1
to E4). Typically, they are automatic in the military.

 7. Because of (5), officers get 1 extra skill per term.
 
  >>

Comments?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:47:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 12:48:13 +0100
> From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
> 
> 	Crossing rifts in space has always been a problem. Ships that
> can't jump across voids have to circumnavigate a route around any rift
> in order to find their way across it. 

True; similarly, "mains" direct the large fraction of J1 traffic.  Mains
and voids are the key "terrain" of Traveller astrography. 

> 	Then, on page 81 of Pocket Empires, in the 'War' section, it
> mentions deep space depots that can be built in empty star hexes to
> support and refuel ships to help them reach worlds that would otherwise
> be beyond their jump range. 

Yes, analogous to the way otherwise unihabited and resource-poor islands
in mid-Pacific were used to project US force against Japan during WWII.

> 	So, unless I've got something wrong here, stellar empires can be
> noted as being able to construct deep space resupply stations to enable
> ships to reach out further than they ever could. Also, the PE rules
> state that a pocket empire would at least have difficulty in attacking
> another pocket empire that's far away enough. Yet, with a line of these
> resupply bases PE's can attack slightly further out than I originally
> thought. 

Yes, though like any such long logistics arm, it makes an especially
tempting target for your enemies.  Break any one link and everyone
"downstream" is suddenly in deep trouble.

> 	I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the
> Traveller books I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this
> something I've missed?  What references are there about them? Surely
> various empires would have built these depots to cross rifts, saving
> time and money. The possibilities here would be endless when you
> consider the DS9 and B5 type stations that your players could come
> across. 

This is only mentioned canonically in TNE, which puts it outside the Holy
Church's jurisdiction according to some on this list. :)  The Regency
Sourcebook (RSB) called such stepping-stone bases "Calibration Points"
(CP), and marked the positions of (secret) military ones in the Regency.
It also mentioned that others might easily exist, both secret and public.
It certainly seems a natural thing to build, if a base on some
interstellar iceball will cut 2 months off the passage between hi-pop
worlds A and B -- and the company that builds it can get rich selling fuel
and supplies to the traffic.

Non-canonically, but right here on the TML, Command X's "Planet X" is
actually such a way-station, located in a deep-space hex just coreward (as
I recall) of Sylea.

I'll leave it to those with broader CT/MT collections to inform us if
deep-space refuelling stations were ever mentioned before TNE.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1605
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1606



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

CharGen and Injury
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1600
Tactics Skill for Naval Officers
Deep Space Depots
Re: Deep Space
Re: Deep Space
Re: Test
Re: Bounty hunting
Re: Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Roswell
Has anyone else gotten...?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
Re: next THUDDD
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Grandfather Elvis
Re: FBI in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:45:04 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: CharGen and Injury

New question for y'all folks: How do you handle skills gained in chargen
in a term in which the character is injured? Does the character earn any
a skill per year before the injury, or no skills? The T4 book is not clear
on this point. "Beginnings" assumes no skills, but I've had one person 
using it ask about it, so I thought I'd throw it out here and see what y'all
do as a rule of thumb.


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:11:53 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1600

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 03:12:24 -0400, you wrote:

>From: VolantZep@aol.com
>Subject: Trav Lang ML
>
>>With reference to your message with the subject:
>>   "subscribe TravLang volantzep@aol.com"
>>
>>One or more addresses in your message have failed with the following
>>responses from the mail transport system:
>>
>>  <TravLang@earth.execnet.com>
>>   List is restricted and you are not a member.
>>
>>Should you need assistance, please email support@earth.execnet.com.
>
>So how exactly do I get on this list, can someone clue me?  ;^)

=46olks, this is a brief reminder for everyone.

travlang@earth.execnet.com is the address of the list, not the
address of the listserver.  You would send to
travlang@earth.execnet.com if you wanted to post a message to the
list.

To _subscribe_ to the list, you must send your message to
maiser@earth.execnet.com - maiser is the list server program
address.  Include a body line of=20

subscribe travlang Your Name

and the subject is irrelevant.  Remember, list control commands
are sent to _maiser_, not travlang.

The reason that you will get the "restricted" error if you try to
post without being subscribed is because I made the judgement
call to so restrict the list - most of the lists I am a member of
have converted from unrestricted to restricted because of spam; I
resolved that TravLang would _not_ have that problem from the
get-go.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jeff Zeitlin                                =
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:17:55 -0400
From: Wesley Esser <wesley@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Subject: Tactics Skill for Naval Officers

Hi - 

	I was playing with character generation today, and I noticed that
tactics doesn't seem to be a skill available to Navy characters.  In the
rules it says that tactics is for up to 1000 troops or ships.  So  it
seems that it has replaced the old ship tactics skill.  In PE tactics
skill gives a bonus on military tasks, so it does seem to be needed. 
What does the navy do - rely on marine advisors on the bridge to deal
with tactics?

	Any suggestions are welcome..

Wes Esser

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 11:25:54 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Deep Space Depots

>	I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the Traveller >books
>I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this something I've missed?
>What references are there about them? 

They are mentioned in Arrival Vengence, and in the Regenecy Sourcebook.


Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is round and dangerous?  
A:A vicious circle.            

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:15:13 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

At 13:47 25/07/97 -0700, Craig Berry wrote:
>> another pocket empire that's far away enough. Yet, with a line of these
>> resupply bases PE's can attack slightly further out than I originally
>> thought. 
>
>Yes, though like any such long logistics arm, it makes an especially
>tempting target for your enemies.  Break any one link and everyone
>"downstream" is suddenly in deep trouble.

	But, if the empire was big enough, some bases could be well within its
borders and therefore be very far away from where a first offensive would
take place.

	Also, would it not be reasonable to assume that some races would have such
an outlook on life etc that they may build these bases no matter what? For
instance, forgive me for foregeting my history here ;-) but how long were
the Solomanis in space before they encountered the Vilani? They could have
built bases unaware that such a strong star-faring race was so close to
them so figured on them being worth building.
>
>This is only mentioned canonically in TNE, which puts it outside the Holy
>Church's jurisdiction according to some on this list. :)  The Regency
>Sourcebook (RSB) called such stepping-stone bases "Calibration Points"
>(CP), and marked the positions of (secret) military ones in the Regency.
>It also mentioned that others might easily exist, both secret and public.
>It certainly seems a natural thing to build, if a base on some
>interstellar iceball will cut 2 months off the passage between hi-pop
>worlds A and B -- and the company that builds it can get rich selling fuel
>and supplies to the traffic.

	Yes, some corporations would surely become rich enough to be able to build
these things. Also, couldn't a deep space depot take the form of several
large super tankers permanently moored around say a few powerful ships and
few other ships for admin and R & R? Jump tankers could be continually
jumping backwards and forwards between here and a near star system with a
gas giant to refuel the moored tankers.

	And as for secret bases, wouldn't there be a few Ancient ones lying around
somewhere? Just imagine the sight of finding a million ton hulk of metal
floating in a non-star hex, totally alien, no lights, no signal emissions,
just asking to be explored...
>
>Non-canonically, but right here on the TML, Command X's "Planet X" is
>actually such a way-station, located in a deep-space hex just coreward (as
>I recall) of Sylea.

	Yes, I checked it out long ago, very interesting!
>
>I'll leave it to those with broader CT/MT collections to inform us if
>deep-space refuelling stations were ever mentioned before TNE.

	I only ever played CT and now T4, and have a few New Era bits but haven't
read them yet, so any decent references detailing space stations would be
most helpful.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:31:04 -0700
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

Bruce E J Lewis wrote:
>
>       Crossing rifts in space has always been a problem. Ships that can't jump
> across voids have to circumnavigate a route around any rift in order to
> find their way across it.
>
>       Then, on page 81 of Pocket Empires, in the 'War' section, it mentions deep
> space depots that can be built in empty star hexes to support and refuel
> ships to help them reach worlds that would otherwise be beyond their jump
> range.

<snippage>

>       I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the Traveller books
> I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this something I've missed?
> What references are there about them?

The only other references I recall are those from TNE. In the Regency
Source
Book, such refueling locations were called "calibration points". These
points
ranged from "a natural source of hydrogen, typically a comet nucleus or
other
icy body" to the rare rogue planet to space stations with all the
comforts of
a major starport.

The really great thing about deep space stations is that they're so
blasted
difficult to find if you don't have exact coordinates. They're great for
commerce raiding, hit and run raids, and, if discovered, for slowing
down
and/or tying up enemy forces. Even a small comet can be used to trash at
least one capital ship if its location is "leaked" after a number of
heavily
shielded tactical nukes with proximity fuses are buried in it (been
there,
done that).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:10:05 -0400
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Test

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> <tap, tap>
> 
> Is this thing on?
> 
> <feedback squeal>
> 
> Uh . . . CQ, CQ . . .  this is . . uh . . Hello?
> 
> Bloo

gotcha covered wall to wall good buddy... 10-4!

- -- 
PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:26:26 -0400
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Bounty hunting

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------38CC5EE0E858ED9AFFACBB10
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

John_Wood@cbtsys.com wrote:
> 
> I have been thinking about starting a campaign in which the players are
> bounty hunters (agents). Given the maxim that the imperium rules the space

I used to love to play bounty hunter characters as well as run campaigns
with them involved.  Sometimes the bounty hunters in campaigns I ran
were NPCs used to move the story line along.

One interesting twist I threw at some players in one of my campaigns was
the problem of getting a fugitive that they were going to bring to
authorities on a world other than the one they were on off world.
Basicly smuggling them out.  Of course, if they were caught they would
be arrested themselves and held for kidnapping as the warrant that they
were "serving" on the fugitive was not valid on that world...

Anyway, strictly speaking bounty hunters can get real boring if you
aren't carefull how you run the campaigns with them in them.  There is a
real temptation to make them become a vehicle of "Monty Haul'ism."  

My rule of thumb as a ref was to always make the bad guys at least as
tough if not tougher than the players that were chasing them, or
whatever the situation was.

Hmmm... maybe I should publish some of my older campaigns....

- -- 
PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
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- --------------38CC5EE0E858ED9AFFACBB10--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:54:06 -0700
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Re: PCs and nobles

The Grand Commander of Artillery announced:
>><< 
>> How about _Megacorporations_ - a kind of Pocket Empires for the traders
>> amongs us?
>> Or _Sword and Blaster_ for the detailing of duels (perhaps an update to En
>> Garde? [1])
>> Or some detailing of computers and how they work in Traveller?
>> Or...
>>  >>
> I would like to see all of these.
>
> But specifically, I could see...
>
> MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
>
> Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
>
> What else?
>
> Marc

Personally, I'd like to see more background material on Imperial law,
Imperial courts, punishment, etc. The last few posts dealing with
bounty hunters, et al piqued my interest (I kicked butt in the MT2
computer game). After all, these are the things that can affect an
adventure the most. ;-)

I'd also like to see material that covers aspects of daily life
within the Imperium, such as banking, intrasystem travel
regulations and requirements, military/civilian communications
protocols, the M0 equivalent of the Internet, yadayadayada...

Although DGP covered some of this in their Travellers' Digests,
info of this type with an M0 spin could help newbie players more
easily immerse themselves in the role-playing aspects of the game
while giving us "old farts" (and proud of it) additional background
material to pull from (not to mention providing Imperium Games
another boost to the old cash flow).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:26:10 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

William F. Hostman writes:

>Just like TNE was sufficiently different from CT/MT that it was not truly
>compatable, T4 is also likewise incompatable with BOTH ct/mt and TNE. Not
>that I inherently dislike any of the 4 editions, but T4 is barely the same
>feel as any previous editions.

   As scary as it might seem, we agree totally except for this one
passage.

   While it is true that TNE's mechanics are sufficently different from
CT/MT that they are for the most part not compatible (afterall, much of
TNE's mechanics come from Twilight:2000), the official timeline is the
same in all three versions.  The only real difference is *where* on that
timeline the action is taking place.  I could just as easily run a TNE
campaign occuring in the year 1108 as I could a MT campaign occuring in
the year 1202 or a CT campaign occuring in the year 1119.

Regards,

Harold
(The Serene Traveller Player)

P.S. Hostman and Hale coming to an agreement about things Traveller is
not a sign of the Apocalypse, but it would be a good idea to make your
peace with the deity of your choice.  :-)

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:56:23 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

Andrew Boulton writes:

>5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.

   In the modern U.S. Army (that is, c.1980 to the present), the average
officer *in peacetime* can expect to get promoted from 2LT to 1LT after
18 months, Captain after four years, Major after ten to twelve years,
hopefully reaching "full bird" Colonel about the time he or she gets his
20 years in.  After that, making general is a matter of politics and
luck.  Promotions can come much slower (or not at all) if you get some
unfavorable officer evaluations.  On the other hand, promotions can come
*much* faster in wartime, or if you are seen as a "fair haired boy" on
the career fast track.  Making Brigadier General (one star) is not
unheard of before age 40.

   Assuming that the Third Imperium of MMT is a rapidly expanding power,
you could expect to make rank pretty easy, since good officers don't
have to wait for the ranks above them to thin before getting promoted.

>6. Enlisted promotion is too rapid in first term.

   For enlisted types in the U.S. Army, if you don't make E-5 (Sergeant)
by your 5th year of service, it's because you've done something *really*
bad.

   Again, an expanding military would make promotions easier to obtain
for enlisted types as well as officers.

7. Because of (5), officers get 1 extra skill per term.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 23:17:08 -0700
From: Jon Fuller <foxonetwo@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Roswell

At 11:28 PM 7/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
TOTALLY off-topic here, but I think anyone remotely interested in this sort
of thing should pick up a copy of XCOM:UFO Defense at the local software
retailer.  It combines resource management (for you PE lovers) and the
creepiest running gun battles with off-worlders you could ever have (for
those of you who like to see your squad tactics books put to good use).
Not even mentioning all the dark humor and cool technology...

Definetly worth the ten bucks you'll spend on it.

.JF.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 03:02:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Has anyone else gotten...?

DELAYED PRODUCTS:
Imperium is sorry to say that due to circumstances beyond control, Fire,
Fusion & Steel, Gateway & Milieu 0 Campaign will be delayed until the
LAST WEEK of July, 1997.  For the inconvenience, any PRE-ORDER CUSTOMERS
who were charged early for the above products will AUTOMATICALLY be
credited $2.00 off of their next product shipping.

CITIZENS OF THE IMPERIUM:
Citizens is coming sooner than later - by end JULY, 1997!  All CITIZENS
will receive an 5% off of orders!!!

Please send all replies to imperiumgames@imperiumgames.com

Please send requests to be removed from this list to:

        webmaster@imperiumgames.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:14:27 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604

Marc Miller wrote:

> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:14:31 -0400 (EDT)
> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: Re: PCs and nobles
>
> In a message dated 97-07-24 21:29:39 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
>  > How about _Megacorporations_ - a kind of Pocket Empires for the
> traders
>  > amongs us?
>  > Or _Sword and Blaster_ for the detailing of duels (perhaps an
> update to En
>  > Garde? [1])
>  > Or some detailing of computers and how they work in Traveller?
>  > Or...
>   >>
> I would like to see all of these.
>
> But specifically, I could see...
>
> MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
>
> Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
>
> What else?
>
> Marc
>

  Computers, definitely computers. The computers in all of the editions
of Traveller have been under rated. Something along the line of a (and I
hate to say this!) cyberpunk set of rules for programming and using
computers. IIRC Traveller 2300 had a couple of good ideas in this line.
Let's face it looking at what most of us are using now, I don't buy the
limits on ship board computers for a second. By the 3I I'd expect the
computers to be able to handle most of the functions on their own.
*********
A Noble steps on his yacht, blonde on his arm. The lights snap on as
they pass through the access hall from the small boat bay. Temperature,
humidity, light level, etc. adjusts to the Nobles preferences.
"Hello, (Baron, Marquis, Duke, etc.). How are you today?"
"Fine, Ship. Listen, take us once around the moons of -----. Oh, and
hold all calls." he leads the blonde toward the onboard swimming pool.
Elsewhere in the ship the maneuver drives light up. The ship's computer
connects to e the planetary databanks and confirms it's own calculations
of the locations of the various bodies in the current solar system,
calculates a course, downloads it to the network and various agencies
involved, then begins to implement it. At the same time it adjusts the
temperature of the water in the pools, switches on the Noble's favorite
music, and begins a 3-D projection of a tropical island beach around the
walls of the pool room.
"Oh, Ship, a couple of Mai Tai's please."
Promptly a small extension unit (robot) mixes the drinks to the specs
stored in the computer, then trundles on nearly silent wheels, to the
poolside. Meanwhile the ship executes several course adjustments. All
without another person aboard.
*********

O.K., now where did I leave that asbestos underwear..

Mike Peters

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: next THUDDD

Many people have asked me about what ship we'll be designing for THUDDD 6
in August.  What I'm currently leaning toward is a TL 10 system defense
boat (SDB).  The idea here is to develop a ship that one might encounter
being used for security by a lowish-tech pocket empire, of which there are
sure to be many. 

The other ideas I was throwing around were a 20-ton fighter and a
500ish-ton lab ship.  However, I'd prefer to wait until FFS2 is available
to tackle small-craft designs, and I just can't muster much enthusiasm for
the lab ship.

Comments?  Other suggestions?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 21:49:13 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

On 07/25/97 at 12:36 PM,  lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu
Guatney) said:

>>No! (To Leroy: Are you reading the same T4 books I am??? They are all at
>>odds with previous cannon to a greater or lesser degree.)

>I disagree, though I am not too big on canon, it does make compatibility
>with all the books I own kind of nice. :)

Leroy,

I haven't weighed in on your ROM TL discussion because, being an
arch-heretic, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other...I'll set the
TL for the ROM (if my universe has a ROM) at whatever I want it to be,
anyway.  ;-> 

>  (If you are LOL right now having heard that from me, consider that
>   pre-conceived notions about my approach to canon may be wrong.  I
>   had a pre-conceived notion about TML that canon is the Mother and
>   canon is the Father.  I may have been wrong there, but that is how
>   I chose to start the discussion of RoM TL.

Oh never fear, the "Canonists" *are* around. Right, William? ;->  

>   BTW, until Marc posted his use of LOL, I was using an older, less
>   suitable interpretation of "Little Old Lady", so now I am "laughing
>   out loud." :)

ROTFLMAO!

Don't fall for that "one true way" stuff!  LOL means "exactly _what we_make
of it."  How about...Lots Of Luck; Linger On Line; or even Lingerie On
Line? ;->


Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:56:48 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

Hi,

> Personally, I'd like to see more background material on Imperial law,
> Imperial courts, punishment, etc. The last few posts dealing with
> bounty hunters, et al piqued my interest (I kicked butt in the MT2
> computer game). After all, these are the things that can affect an
> adventure the most. ;-)
> 
> I'd also like to see material that covers aspects of daily life
> within the Imperium, such as banking, intrasystem travel
> regulations and requirements, military/civilian communications
> protocols, the M0 equivalent of the Internet, yadayadayada...

I'd personally expect this kind of thing to be in the M0 Campaign book. 
For instance, it should mention how on-planet communications are done in
M0.  Do they have phone booths?  Or are they vid-phones?  Do they have
an internet, etc.

Many Traveller adventures I've run have been on planet, and I've often
had to adlib the material to cover life on a planet outside of the
starport.  This may be in some old stuff I don't have, but it'd be nice
to know what things are like in M0.

Thanks

- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:05:34 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Grandfather Elvis

I am changing my last name.

Can I have that for the Silly era?

Doug Eneri.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:56:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

In my games, the Navy does the actual dirty work of enforcing Imperial Law,
with the scout security Branch providing an investigative force.  External
intel is the province of Naval Intellegence working with the Scouts.

The MoJ runs the courts, from criminal to commercial.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1606
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1607



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Elvis in Traveller
Re: Overwhelmed by the TML!
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Noble Lands
Re: Planning Traveller Design
Noble Stuff and T4.1 CharGen
Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 5
Re: Noble Lands

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:51:32 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Elvis in Traveller

At 02:35 PM 7/23/97 -0700, Kenji wrote:

>Anyone else out there ever thought about a SubTraveler setting?

Ladies and Gentlemen, all the way from rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated;
the NARN BAT SQUAD!!!!! <applause>

<wheeet!>  tromptromptrompTrompTrompTROMPTROMP.

*WHAM!*  *WHAM!*  *WHAM!*  *WHAM!*  *WHAM!*

TROMPTROMPTrompTromptromptromp.......


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:19:45 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Overwhelmed by the TML!

At 07:27 PM 7/23/97 +0100, Dom Mooney wrote:

>To everyone who sent me an rtf/Word6 copy of the T4.1 cgen rules, thank you!
>
>I logged on this evening, to face a system crash - after upping the memory
>allocated to Eudora and restarting I managed to download lots of copies of
>the T4 cgen as attachments! After no initial response, I get loads of
>copies... thanks! ;-) Need to up my memory to 36Mb from 20 now?

>PS Please, no more copies?! ;-)

Send me one instead!
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:11:52 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

>  1. Do schools count as career terms for mustering out? IMHO they should 
> if character graduates.
> 
> My thought is that Academy schooling counts to muster out (Military Academy,
> Naval Academy, Merchant Academy). Schooling while in service counts. Service
> before enlisting doesn't.
> 

Currently time in service academies don't count for retirement.

>  4. The Commission roll is too easy. It's almost impossible to generate 
>  an enlisted character!
> 
> Comments from others?
> 
Commission roll is optional.  If a character doesn't want to go to 
OCS then he doesn't apply.

>  5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.
> 
> Ditto?
> 
Unless you screw up you will usually get promoted.  In most of the 
militaries now if you don't get promoted you are kicked out.  A 20 
year career as an officer gets you to the O5 and fast track guys O6 
in 20-22 years.

>  6. Enlisted promotion is too rapid in first term.
> 
> This is caused by the compression of ranks at the lower enlisted level.. (E1
> to E4). Typically, they are automatic in the military.
> 
>  7. Because of (5), officers get 1 extra skill per term.
>  
> Comments?

Any promotion (enlisted or officer) should receive the extra skill 
bonus.

JD
Twolf
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:17:04 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

At 08:49 AM 7/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-23 07:35:10 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
> If it does, could you make pi equal to 3.0 while you're at it?
>  >>
>
>Good idea. Make it so.
>
>Marc

Yeesh!  The RCCC goes on vacation for *three days*, and look what happens..
cigarette burns on the couch, tastefully dressed Vargr, and now pi is equal
to 3!!!

Well, since Marc said it.. *ahem*

BY DECREE OF HIS MARCNESS, PI SHALL BE THREE, AND THREE SHALL BE THE NUMBER
OF PI.  TWO SHALL NOT BE THE NUMBER, UNLESS FOLLOWED BY THREE.  FIVE IS
RIGHT OUT!
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:54:03 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

At 12:08 PM 7/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:48:33 -0400
>hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale) writes:
>>
>>   People strongly disagreed with your position, but no one here was
>>trying to "hush you up".  They *did* become very impatient, and I can't
>>say that I blame them.  You made certain assertions and then didn't back
>>them up, at least not until significantly later.
>
>As I said, perceptions can take on a realistic tone, until experience
>sets the reference frame.  I was new to TML, and it _is not_ like any
>other list I have been on.  You should know better than anyone, that I
>don't let others set my schedule.  Just a stubborn side of me. :)

Yet when I, along with a few others, pointed out to you how the list
worked, we were brushed off with "you have to wait until *I'm* ready."  

>Hey, perhaps the list encourages more careful posting, but someone with
>my experience at analyzing the game has a long, rich tradition of
>"knowing" the Traveller Universe.  I do understand that something as
>provocative as what I was saying does need an explanation of the reasoning
>behind it.  Even having said all that, the emotional aspects of the list
>were something I absolutely could not have forseen.

I've played the game since it's release.  My nickname in High School was
traveller!  I have spent many enjoyable hours re-reading old supplements to
get a better feel for the setting.  I would wager that my understanding of
the Traveller experience, both rules and backround, rivals yours.

It wasn't your theory, it was your attitude.  You were dimissive,
condescending, and rude.  I'm a great believer in the Golden rule, so I
assumed that you were threating me the way you wished to be treated.

>I see that whole thing as just an unpleasant non-communication experience.
>I didn't know (or even imagine that) at the outset that whole discussion
>that it would boil down to people here not seeing that I had a different
>approach to looking at published events.

We took your evidence and refuted it point-for-point.  That's not a
difference of opinion, that's using what you had to show your mistakes.  We
had a discussion about how the Imperium would handle rebellious worlds..
some thought that genocidal tactics would be employed, others thought that
a more "velvet fist" approach would be more useful.  No one attempted to
announce that they were right, and that everybody else was wrong.

> And, only since Mark Clark's
>comments on this thread, did I see that anyone was taking serious any
>notion that _I_ was deciding these kinds of things.  I said from the
>outset that "I was interested" in the subject.  I've learned a lot more
>from all of it, and I think a few people have clearer notions about the
>"pre-history" of Traveller M:0 onward.  So I guess it was not all a waste
>of time.

*Sigh*  You announced that you had evidence that the RoM was at a very high
TL.  You stated that this would change our worldview.  Only when you were
proven wrong did you start saying that you were just trying to start
discussion.. I find it hard to take you seriously when you lack the courage
to admit that you were mistaken.

>This is like I pointed out in my Edsel Gouch's Traveller campaign example.
>He stopped reading and playing the "published universe" after _Rescue on
>Ruie_ in JTAS #1.  And nobody is twisting his arm to do otherwise, however,
>he should realize that he made some choices with his campaign setting that
>just don't apply to those who chose to go forward.

Yes, but he isn't posting to the TML.  I could jump around and demand
recognition for my old Restored Catholic Empire game, but it won't fly.  (I
may put the backround on a web page someday..)  We have to operate in a
common milieu to get anything done.  Imagine a THUDDD if I posted a design
that had an AI computer at TL12 and force fields since that's the way *my*
game runs, while Roderick is using realistic engines and weapons for his
campaign.  Traveller Canon gives us a common ground on which to base
discussions and debate.  

>That attitude can be applied in a chronological sense as well.  Someone
>who does not like the Rebellion can refuse any "canon" after 1117.  Same
>with Virus--no "canon" after 1129 (late).  It is just a matter of each
>and every referee's/player's choice.  Some even use the published timeline
>as something going on somewhere else, and their hard work is the total
>focus of their universe.  All perfectly fine and even excellent.

Absolutley.  In my upcoming FFW game, the Sword Worlders will be far more
active (and sucessful) in Lunion than in canonical history.. up to a point.

>You could take your argument to extend to every single book/product for
>the game, but that doesn't make any of the totally consistent universe any
>less valuable to others.  There are some who are getting their first intro
>to Traveller through T4 and they don't necessarily benefit from our biased
>views, and ancient history. :)

Right, just throw 20 years out the window.  Why not use resources like the
AAB and Traveller Library Data pages to compile everything we know about
the Imperium and its enviroment?  TLs, names, history.. It'd be quite a
project and probably a load of fun.

>>   The alternative to thinking of 'Marc Miller's Traveller' as a
>>seperate game is continued frustration as it becomes increasingly
>>difficult (nay impossible) to reconcile everything under the 'Traveller'
>>name.
>
>I think it is an attitude choice that each and every one of us have, and
>have full control over.  Take my Aslan Major/Minor race aspect.  At the
>time the TD ish came out, I didn't like the twist on a Major race, something
>that was clearly "canon" before.
>
>Over time, I thought about it.  My characters, though in close proximity
>to Kusyu, had never travelled there.  The Aslan presence in my campaign
>was not in the least impacted by it.  As Aslan perspective in S&A points
>out, something like, "look only to our Hierate to decide if we are major
>or not."

Remember that according to that adventure, only a tiny minority know about
the true story of the Pathfinder crash and the copied j-drives.  99.9% of
all Aslan *know* that they developed jump drives on their own, and are a
Major Race.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:37:41 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Noble Stuff and T4.1 CharGen

Marc Miller wrote :

> 
> << Well, I would guess that the amounts would be a matter of negotiation.
>   >>
> Certainly subject to negotiation. There have to be reasons why everyone does
> something. If 20% of each secondary world seems too much, let's talk.
> 
> (suitably phrased in diplomatic terms)
> "So your world/system has been stagnating for 1700 years, as has this entire
> region of space. We propose to make available from our factories a supply of
> FusionPlus modules that effectively give everyone free portable power. This
> will kickstart our economy and imporve the standard of living.
> 
> In return, you join the Imperium (you'll be surrounded by us within decades
> anyway) and embrace free trade with other Imperium members. And you'll cede
> us <description snipped> territory on your worlds. That territory is saller
> if it already developed; larger if undeveloped. On your unsurveyed secondary
> worlds, we'll take options."
> 
> Marc
> 

OK. We get an Imperium which does not rule systems, but rather the space between
systems, but they demand territory on your world as a condition of joining.

To me, this just doesnt mesh. Why does the Imperium *want* land on planets ???
Forty square miles for a starport, sure, but a signifigant proportion of
the worlds surface ? Isnt this creating a running sore for anti-Imperial
sentiment, and a sitting target for local resistance ("The damned Imperials
in their enclave ... they are sucking the wealth out of the planet. Lets burn
them in their holes !").

IMO joining the Imperium is an offer you cant refuse for a PE in M0. For a start,
they have nuke dampers and meson screens, and you dont. Therefore, if it
comes to war, you die. And they are about thirty times bigger than you are.

But what the Imperium doesnt want is worlds that join resentfully, and see
themselves as exploited. Taxes are a fee-for-service thing, and the service
is every pirate within a dozen parsecs knowing the IN patrols your system
with bigger and better ships than they can dream of. But signing over a
large chunk of your surface is going to be a political nightmare - look at
PNG as an example, where the compensation to landowners of mineral resources
caused a rebellion on Bouganville. Sure, if you join the Imperium, everyone
will benefit - but if you happen to live in Kansas, which was one of the
provinces ceded to the Emperor as a condition of joining, then are you
going to be happy with the Imperium, those bastards who stole your house ?

Please, Marc, make Nobles buy their own lands, or have the ability to slice
off a small chunk of the tax take. Dont require worlds to cede large chunks
of their surface to the Imperium, to be given to some oik with a title.

(standard Fusion plus rant deleted ... any world approached by the Imperium
to join will have been within the range of Imperial Traders for 10 years
or so ... they will already have as many Fusion plus units as they want and
can afford. Anyway, thruster plates, nuke dampers and meson screens are far
far more useful TL12 technologies for a TL11 world to have).

> 
> In-Reply-To: <199707240712.DAA27821@phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM>
> VolantZep wrote in Digest #1600:
> 
> > My question is should every noble have property?
> > If the Nobility is hereditary and the father squanders the
> > fortune, leavinghis decents nothing but a title, seems likely
> > that the table should includethe chance of having nothing
> 
> Is a noble without property really a noble? One of the obligations
> of medieval aristocracy was to 'live nobly' (a vague term, but
> everyone seemed to know what it meant). If a family was unable to
> maintain its social position and was reduced to living in a mud
> hut it would forfeit its noble status. So if the father squanders
> the fortune, the son can only petition the Emperor to succeed to
> the title if he can convince a council of his peers (other
> subsector nobles) that he will be able to live in a suitably grand
> manner.
> 

I disagree. A lot of noble families in the RW lived in strained
circumstances. In such a case, I would imagine a lot of younger
sons becoming career officers in the Navy and Marines, and hoping
to marry an heiress, and thus rescue the family finances.

> On the subject of noble property, vast amount of MegaCorporation
> stock, according to old Supplement 8, was in the hands of noble
> families -- 8% of LSP, 35% of General Products. Now was this
> because the founders of the MegaCorps were able to buy themselves
> titles, or did the noble families accept stock in exchange for
> granting the MegaCorps exploitation rights/market concessions in
> their fiefs?
> 
> Nick
> 

My guess is that they in effect bought titles ... I'm sure Cleon
ran short of cash and votes at times, and had favours done for him
by the major shareholders of the other megacorps ... remember, the
3I is a wholly-owned subsiduary of ZI, GsBAG, LSP et al :)

> In a message dated 97-07-25 14:46:24 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
> I decided to try rolling up a few T4.1 characters recently, 2 Naval
>  Officers and a Marine NCO. Some thoughts:
> 
>  1. Do schools count as career terms for mustering out? IMHO they should
> if character graduates.
> 
> My thought is that Academy schooling counts to muster out (Military Academy,
> Naval Academy, Merchant Academy). Schooling while in service counts. Service
> before enlisting doesn't.
> 
>  2. It's not as easy to get humongous levels as I thought, unless you
>  want an extremely specialised character.
> 

I disagree. Where 1/3 of skills on the Career table for a Merchant are Buisiness,
6 skills a term should get you Trader-8 in 5 terms, and that is assuming the
occasional roll on other tables. But this is a matter for GMs to police.

> !
> 
>  3. How does this grab people as a definition of what the level means:
> 
>  0 - basic knowledge
>  2 - trained
>  4 - professional
>  6 - expert
>  8 - master

Essentially, they are the old Traveller ratings doubled (1 used to be trained,
2 professional, 3 expert and 4 damn good ... see the breakpoints for DMs
in High Guard for Pilot, Fleet Tactics etc).

> 
>  4. The Commission roll is too easy. It's almost impossible to generate
>  an enlisted character!
> 
> Comments from others?

Agreed. Although one could argue that the roll for NPCs should be a lot higher.

> 
>  5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.
> 
> Ditto?

True, but sizes of military units are getting smaller, and thus the proportion
of higher officers is getting higher.

> 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:37:00 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 5

	Just ran the fifth session of my latest campaign, titled Traveller:
Beyond The Pale.  Here's the post-game summary:

The Cast:

Amr Santayema: a young and clever merchant, played by the TML's own Ross
Coburn, who the dudes at the Sylean Atmosphere Surfing Club would find
like, totally guava and gnarly in the extreme.

Lt Kehaaarl: An Aslan ex-marine.  Visualize Catbert, Evil H.R. Director, on
steroids and bad acid.  Played by Jason Jones, who has just subscribed to
the TML.

Sir Loreni Vilash: Vilani merchant from a poor family whose trading acumen
led him to a knighthood.  Currently just trying to make a living in the
middle of a revolution, and whose player missed this session and so will be
figuring prominently as another object lesson next game.

Perlis Dalal: a muscular female ex-scout, who's going to have to keep one
eye out for vengeful Rye-Ben for the rest of her life.  Played by the TML's
Glenn Grant.

Elo Lezaar, a highly geeky Vilani ex-Navy sensors and electronics tech.  He
mumbles, collects meditation rugs and gravitationally abuses bees, and is
played by TML'er Sebastien Normandin.

Lt. Kurek: A tall, blond, shades-wearing former Navy gunner who'll be
manning the nuke damper and serving margaritas to the passengers.



	This bunch of intrepid adventurers is presently assembled, along
with a growingly large number of fellow fortune-seekers, on Mishegaan III,
an LSP mining colony, waiting for an Imperial interdict to lift on a
cluster of main-sequence stars three parsecs away.  They've incorporated,
borrowed some money with the connivance of Liontzel Huutzaa (Ling's Chief
Legal Officer, the only lawyer in a two-parsec radius, and such a crooked
one he bumps into himself walking around corners on a regular basis) and
bought an FSY Recollet Exploratory Trader, which they named the Versailles.
However, Ling's unpleasant labour relations have led to a full-scale worker
revolt and they've recently become involved in saving Ling's treasury from
the Rye-Ben Anti-Ling Defense League and getting many of Ling's key
personnel off-planet one step ahead of the lynch mob.

This week:


	After getting back to the ship after their hair-raising adventures
saving Ling's corporate bacon and blasting a bunch of poor oppressed miners
fighting for their rights, everybody retired to their quarters to sleep.
As day dawned, Sir Loreni stepped off the ship to be what was a simple
meeting lining up some cargo <low, sinister chuckles>, leaving the rest of
the party on board.  Shortly thereafter, Perlis was called by Lt. Kurek,
who had recently arrived on-planet and who had heard that the Versailles
was looking for another gunner.  As he looked competent and since she was
majority shareholder, Perlis hired him on the spot and then went back to
sleep.

	He arrived at the ship shortly thereafter, carrying several
ominous-looking high-tech suitcases.  Lt. Kehaaarl, who was curled up in a
ball on his quarters floor, sleeping, was awakened by his comm, which
patched him through to the airlock camera.  After verifying Lt. Kurek's
credentials, he went down to greet him.

	Meanwhile, Elo went through his morning routine of hygiene,
meditation, and switching the gravitational orientation of his beehive.
Sauntering into the crew lounge, he encountered Kehaaarl and Kurek, who
were having a manly/Aslanly bonding kind of conversation over the
Versaille's armament suite.  He joined in, but was shortly interrupted by a
comm ping from Leilei Vuushilipaarki, their engineer, who wanted some help
with some maintenance work on the purification plant.  He headed down to
engineering, and spent the next little while disassembling centrifuge
frombotzers and eliminating a nasty harmonic vibration in one of the sewage
titrators.

	We then switched to poor Amr.  The day before, he'd recieved an
offer from the shady merchant who'd sold him his spurt gun to repurchase
said weapon at something of a premium.  His mercantile soul never being
able to turn down a good deal, he'd gone to meet the dealer, where he'd
been Blurred by unknown assailants.  However, at the moment this was all
beyond his recall, as he awoke with dirt in his nostrils and the taste of
blood in his mouth.  He opened his eyes, and recieved a double eyeful of
more dirt for his pains.  Raising his arm, he realized that although
somewhat buried, he wasn't buried very deeply at all.  Hearing a voice say
something in an unknown language, he raised his head, and was promptly
whacked on it with a TL-12 Manual Personal Earthmoving Device, losing
consciousness again (those of you familiar with Vampire:The Masquerade will
recognize a strange and entirely intentional resemblance to the Sabbat's
Creation Rites).

	When next he awoke, he was face-down on some deckplating; stirring,
he was greeted by the sight of eight or so armed Rye-Ben United
Ling-Loathing Association members;  their leader informed him that if he
wanted to live, he'd fly their ship (a 1,000 td 1G in-system ore hauler)
out of there for them.  Shortly thereafter, as he began warming up the
drives, more Mishegaan Anti-Suppressive Fascist League members entered,
carrying in the unconscious Dame Berek'san and Vought Hendaar (Ling's local
chief executive), who looked like they had suffered from explosive
decompression and anoxia.  During his pre-flight routine, Amr set the ore
hauler's nav and landing lights flashing signal GK in Imperial Dot&Dash
code.

	Meanwhile, the terrorist leader had hooked a video cam up to the
comm board and began transmitting notice that they had hostages on board
and would shortly be violating the departure ban; reprisals against the
hostages would be taken if any interference was attempted.  The camera was
then switched off and the Rye-Ben promptly shot the unconscious Hendaar
repeatedly.  Their leader then ordered Amr to take off; at first Amr took
off under minimum thrust, but after a warning from Engineering that he was
dogging it, one of the Rye-Ben began to remove all the earwax from Amr's
left ear with the muzzle of his weapon, and Amr wised up.

	Back on the crew lounge of the Versailles, meanwhile, Kehaaarl and
Kurek noted the signal flashing on the departing ore hauler's lights.
Shortly thereafter, a heavily armed privateer lifted off, following it.
After some discussion, they contacted spaceport security, who informed them
that a hijacking was in progress.  Realizing that Amr had been gone for far
too long, they passed his description on to spaceport security, who
confirmed that Amr was indeed a hostage onboard.

	Meanwhile, onboard the ore hauler, Amr was antangonizing a bunch of
heavily armed terrorists when suddenly, the entire ship shook as a pulse
from a PA gun hit it, taking out its power plant and frying most of the
electronics onboard.  Curses, swearing, and confusion ensued, with Amr
trying to regain control of the vessel.  A second pulse hit.  Amr quickly
realized that the ore hauler had not yet achieved escape velocity, and
would begin to re-enter Mishegaan III's atmosphere in approximately 25
minutes.  Meanwhile, the terrorists ordered him to stay put as they exited
the bridge, dragging Dame Berek'san with them and putting slaplocks across
the hatch once out so that Amr's only route out was though the bridge
airlock.

	Gathering his wits about him, Amr proceeded to the airlock;
thankfully, inside were two vac suits, two rescue bubbles, and two Personal
Re-Entry Kits.  He quickly suited up.  As his suit radio was incapable of
raising the starport, he hauled a rescue ball into the bridge and inflated
it, but quickly realized that he didn't have time to try and use its radio.
Firing up his hand comp and calculating trajectories, he realized with
horror that due to Mishegaan III's very thin atmosphere, he would not be
able to land using a PRK; the aerobraking and parachute wouldn't slow him
enough.  The only way down safely (and that term was to be used lightly)
was to take two PRK's; he would have to deorbit and do a long aerobrake
using the first kit, passing deep into Mishegaan III's atmosphere, and
travelling most of the way around the planet before re-exiting the
atmosphere briefly, changing PRK's with only two minutes worth of safety
margin, re-entering again, and landing using the PRK's de-orbit thruster.
He quickly strapped on the first PRK, tethered the second closely to him,
and jumped.  As he drifted away from the ore hauler, activating the PRK's
foam dispensers, he saw that the escape pods were gone and that the entire
aft section was blackened and slagged.  Then, several tens of kilometers
retrograde and down, he saw a series of bright flashes.

	Amr then began his de-orbit burn.  As he began to drop swiftly away
from the wrecked ore hauler, he was very conscious of the fact that on the
first aerobraking run, he would dip to within 6 kilometers of the
surface...  wracking his brains over what he'd learned of Mishegaan's
geography, and hoping that his treajectory didn't take him through any
mountan ranges, he began re-entry.

	Some time later, the crew of the Versailles noted what appeared to
be a very bright meteor streaking by, upwards from the horizon, and
disappearing as it exited the atmosphere.  Shortly thereafter, as Amr
emerged from the plasma stream surrounding his PRK and began strapping on
the second one, he began hollering for help on his suit radio.  After a
brief exchange with the Versailles ("that was YOU?") had occurred, Perlis
quickly called spaceport control for permission to depart, which was
initially denied.  A brief discussion ensued, with the result that they
decided to ignore the departure ban.

	However, this rather unwise decision was quickly rendered moot by
the fact that spaceport control put out a general evacuation alarm; the
Rye-Ben Ling Must Eat Itself Front had tunneled under the spaceport tarmac
and emplaced a large fission device.  General panic ensued; however, as the
Versailles' thrusters and power plant were already warmed up, they were
able to floor it out of there very quickly, boosting for a low,
forced-parabola trajectory at maximum thrust that would have them matching
speeds with Amr with about two minutes to spare before his second
atmosphere surfing run.

	As they took off, Lt. Kurek recalled that they had a nuclear
damper, with a 30,000 km range, on board.  He ran for the gun station.  In
the meantime, Elo began sensor scanning for the bomb... but his player
rolled a critical failure.  Mistakenly identifying an innocent Free
Trader's powerplant emissions as the bomb, he relayed the targeting
coordinates to Kurek, who locked on with the damper and shut down their
power plant just as they were lifting off; confusion, foul language, and
panic ensued on board that ship as it crunched back down rather heavily on
its landing legs.

	Shortly thereafter, Kurek realized that they'd targeted some
no-doubt totally traumatized innocent cargo ship.  Elo began another scan
for the bomb, locating it in a tunnel right under the tarmac.  Kurek
quickly retargeted, damping the bomb (and those poor stressed-out bozos in
the Free Trader floored it out of there like bats out of hell).  However,
thirty seconds away from rendevous with Amr, he realized that the bomb was
about twelve seconds away from dropping out of his line of sight, at which
point he wouldn't be able to damp it anymore as the general unified
handwaving theory clearly states that dampers don't work very well through
kilometers of rock.  He informed Perlis, who initiated a radical course
change, swinging the Versailles into an upward trajectory that would keep
it above the spaceport's horizon.

	Amr's heart sank as he saw the blue glow of the Versailles'
thrusters suddenly swing onto the new trajectory; when told why he
stoically braced himself for another hell-on-the-half-shell ride.  However,
the re-entry, parachute deployment, and studly use of the PRK's de-orbit
thruster to brake him to a halt a few meters above the surface, at which
point he jumped for it, all went smoothly.

	Meanwhile, back on the Versailles, Elo noted that the bomb's
detonator had just gone off, as the radiation from the bomb suddenly became
more intense, but diffuse, as the detonator blew the bomb apart but with
the damper preventing actual fission from taking place.  He informed Kurek,
who switched the damper off.  They went to pick up Amr.

	Glenn rolled two sixes and a five, almost making a critical
failure; it would have been extremely amusing to have Amr escape from
hijackers, surviving not one but two PRK re-entries, only to be squashed
flat by his own ship.  However, he didn't and Amr boarded, to be greeted by
a round of applause in the crew lounge.  Although almost in a state of
shock, he prescribed himself a stiff drink.  The Versailles lifted off
again, heading for the spaceport.

	However, upon arrival in the crater in which the spaceport and
Ling's mining colony were situated, they were greeted with a nuclear
fireball as a second nuke, emplaced in the mining colony, detonated;
shortly thereafter, the shock wave hit them.  The nuke destroyed the mining
colony outright and severely damaged several of the spaceport buildings.
This turn of events rather startled them, but ELo quickly began a sensor
sweep of the area.  He quickly turned up a platoon of starport security
troops hiding behind one of the less damaged buildings, pinned down by fire
coming from the fuel dump/refinery.

	After some discussion as to whether they wanted to actually kill
any more people than strictly neccessary, let alone blow the refinery
sky-high, they decided to approach around the crater, landing behind the
building, and pick up the security troops there.  This proceeded
flawlessly, fourteen Imperial troops  and two of their wounded comrades
boarding through a cargo hatch.  The Versailles then boosted for orbit.

	Discussion with the leader of the spaceport security team revealed
that the attack had come shortly before the nuke detonation, and that Sir
Lebar Eerht and Sir Loreni had last been seen in the concourse, where they
had been cut off by the fighting.

	Shortly thereafter, Elo detected a jump pulse; the vessel in
question turned out to be an Imperial courier.  Some minutes after its jump
in-system, the courier made a broad-band inquiry into what the hell was
going on and why weren't the spaceport and colony responding?  When
informed that there was something of a revolution going on and that nukes
had been used, there was some consternation aboard the courier.  However,
they then proceeded to announce in the name of his Imperial Majesty, the
Interdict on the nearby cluster was immediately lifted.

	This news was rather displeasing to the Versailles; not only did
they not have a cargo, but their captain was back down on the ground in the
middle of an ongoing war.  Discussion ensued, and transfer of the troops
onto one of the Imperial vessels that had just arrived was negotiated.  The
fact that there was an armed privateer that had apparently callously shot
down the ore hauler and killing Dame Berek'san was passed on to the
authorities.  However, the privateer's credentials proved to be in order.
And we called it there.  More in two weeks!

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 01:53:02 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

>> My question is should every noble have property?
>> If the Nobility is hereditary and the father squanders the
>> fortune, leavinghis decents nothing but a title, seems likely
>> that the table should includethe chance of having nothing
>
>Is a noble without property really a noble? One of the obligations
>of medieval aristocracy was to 'live nobly' (a vague term, but
>everyone seemed to know what it meant). If a family was unable to
>maintain its social position and was reduced to living in a mud
>hut it would forfeit its noble status. So if the father squanders
>the fortune, the son can only petition the Emperor to succeed to
>the title if he can convince a council of his peers (other
>subsector nobles) that he will be able to live in a suitably grand
>manner.

Owning property and living in a suitably grand manner were essential roles
for European Nobility. In the "estates" formulation typical of a stratified
and hierarchical feudal state, the noble serves the very functional role of
"economic driving force". In a pre-Industrial society, the noble's
lifestyle in essence drove economic production, and developing land for
some practical economic use was an important responsibility of the
Nobility. Warfare also placed a significant demand (without a doubt, the
most significant demand) on a nobleman's resources, and he was also
doubtless the most important consumer of luxury goods in any realm.

If this is to be translated to Traveller terms, then first it should be
decided what function the Nobility serves in the Imperium. Is it a largely
symbolic function? (which the aristocracy increasingly became in
Industrialized countries on our world) Or does it play a larger roll in the
economic function of the Empire. If the former is the case, then Noble
holdings could be quite small, largely irrelevant in land terms, and likely
mostly tied up in business investments and a few luxury items (perhaps a
few ships culled from this month's THUDDD...) :) If, on the other hand, the
Nobility plays a significant role in the Imperial economy, then noble
landholdings should be significant, and a noble's goals would be
conceptually similar to their medieval counterparts. They would seek to
develop and add value to the lands granted them, both in an effort to
improve their financial situation, and also to increase their status at
court. Presumably, this "kind" of noble would play a significant role in
Imperial affairs, and more powerful nobleman would control not only large
chunks of the Imperium, but also the attendant military presence in a given
region. This would mean that resources were not always used in a manner
that always best suited the purposes of the Imperium at large.

Also, it should be noted that if a comparison with historical Nobility is
to be made, then a given level of power would not always be directly
related to a given title. European history in the feudal era is rife with
examples of the highest raking nobles (A King) requiring the support of
lower ranking nobleman (A Duke, perhaps)--who sometimes possessed greater
military power--in order for the region to maintain solvency.

In Traveller terms, perhaps this means that, for example, The Duke of
Regina, who defends the very edge of the Imperium by holding sway over a
significant military forces given his noble station, also holds sway over a
disproportionate say in the political affairs of the Spinward Marches. In
fact, perhaps the region's stability depends on his cooperation more than
any of the other Dukes in the region, and as such his word carries greater
weight in the Emperor's eyes. This sort of assumption is valid all the way
through the noble hierarchy, such that it is impossible to say that x noble
of a certain rank should control y resouces and have z influence at the
Imperial court.

Charts and detailed calculations concerning noble holdings shouldn't be so
arbitrary, since this doesn't really represent what is in essence a far
more fluid social structure than it initially appears to be on the surface.
There should be instances where a title doesn't always represent the same
level of power. And for ease of role-playing, for individual PCs this
should be resolved on a case by case basis, perhaps using general
guidelines, but not simply resorting to consulting a few charts. Each noble
should be unique, since if they are carbon cut-outs with arbitrary levels
of power, then their whole purpose and funtion in the game--to provide a
varied and complex political background for an interstellar Empire with an
old-fashioned feudal structure underneath all that tech--is lost.



Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1607
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1608



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deep Space
Re: Tactics Skill for Naval Officers
Re: CharGen and Injury
Re: Grandfather Elvis
Re: Planning Traveller Design
Re: Beginnings v 0.92 ready!
Re: Strange design/drive question
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: THUDDD distribution channels
Re: next THUDDD
Automatic Skills
Re: PCs and nobles
Double-Agent
Rogue's Masquerade
Re: Planning Traveller Design
Re: Deep Space
Re: Rogue's Masquerade
TNE vs MT/CT
Re: Bounty hunting
Re: Double-Agent
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Automatic Skills
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:08:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space

In mail you write:

>   Yes, some corporations would surely become rich enough to be able to build
> these things. Also, couldn't a deep space depot take the form of several
> large super tankers permanently moored around say a few powerful ships and
> few other ships for admin and R & R? Jump tankers could be continually
> jumping backwards and forwards between here and a near star system with a
> gas giant to refuel the moored tankers.

It's also possible that by very careful observation after jumping into
an "empty" hex you could find a comet or even a "small" moon made of
ice. Refine the fuel on the spot.

It'd take a *long* time to use up even a comet (say 10km) much less a
50 to 100km "moon".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 03:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Tactics Skill for Naval Officers

In a message dated 97-07-25 20:17:50 EDT, you write:

<< What does the navy do - rely on marine advisors on the bridge to deal
 with tactics?
  >>

In T41 Chargen, Ship Tactics and Fleet Tactics have been instiututed.


	*Fleet Tactics: If rank
O4 or less (including E1
to E9) take Ship Tactics
instead.	
	*Ship Tactics: If rank
O5 or higher, take Fleet	
Tactic instead.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 03:09:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: CharGen and Injury

In a message dated 97-07-25 20:16:47 EDT, you write:

<< 
 New question for y'all folks: How do you handle skills gained in chargen
 in a term in which the character is injured? Does the character earn any
 a skill per year before the injury, or no skills? The T4 book is not clear
 on this point. "Beginnings" assumes no skills, but I've had one person 
 using it ask about it, so I thought I'd throw it out here and see what y'all
 do as a rule of thumb.
 
  >>
T41 says if injured and forced to muster out, roll a half die (1-2-3) for the
number of years served in a term, and receive one skill for each year served.

"	If injured, roll for characteristic injured and for recovery, which cannot
exceed initial injury. Unrecovered injury reduces characteristic permanently.
	Service May End. Permanent injury of 3+ points (even if from more than one
injury) requires a disability discharge. Roll a half die (1-2-3) for the
number of years served in the current term and receive double mustering out
benefits."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 02:23:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Grandfather Elvis

On 07/25/97 at 09:05 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>I am changing my last name.

>Can I have that for the Silly era?

>Doug Eneri.

"I'm Eneri the Eighth I yam.
Eneri the Eighth I yam, I yam.

I just got married to the widow next door.
She's been married seven times before,
And every one was an Eneri!"

Had to be said! ;->

Eris,
    the first
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 02:40:56 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

On 07/25/97 at 09:54 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>This is like I pointed out in my Edsel Gouch's Traveller campaign example.
>>He stopped reading and playing the "published universe" after _Rescue on
>>Ruie_ in JTAS #1.  And nobody is twisting his arm to do otherwise, however,
>>he should realize that he made some choices with his campaign setting that
>>just don't apply to those who chose to go forward.

>Yes, but he isn't posting to the TML.  I could jump around and demand
>recognition for my old Restored Catholic Empire game, but it won't fly. 
>(I may put the backround on a web page someday..)  We have to operate in a
>common milieu to get anything done.  Imagine a THUDDD if I posted a design
>that had an AI computer at TL12 and force fields since that's the way *my*
>game runs, while Roderick is using realistic engines and weapons for his
>campaign.  Traveller Canon gives us a common ground on which to base
>discussions and debate.  

Whoa!

Doug, I usually agree with you and in *general* I do on the above
paragraph, but...;->

Let's be very clear on the difference in "demand recognition for" and
present as an alternative.  I agree that those of us that use alternative
tech/backgrounds/rules shouldn't try to codify our alternatives into
official Traveller lore.  I also believe, and I hope you agree with me,
that we should be allowed (even encouraged) to post our ideas, alternatives
and speculations to the list.

For instance, I'd like to see your notes on the Reformed Catholic Empire. 
It's not official?  No, but so what. a good story, is a good story.  ;->


Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 10:03:11 +0100
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Beginnings v 0.92 ready!

Please could TMLers placing software ads specify what machine it is for 
e.g. 

 Beginnings v 0.92 [PC] ready!

It will stop some of us on the list struggling to find it only to be 
disappointed.

David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 10:03:09 +0100
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Strange design/drive question

In one of the old challenges, Marcus Roland had an article called project 
Farstar. This had 5 or 6 77 patron style encounters dealing with oddly 
jumped ships. I can't find it at the moment, perhaps someone could flesh 
out some of the info regarding what happens with weird drive configs...

David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 05:15:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In a message dated 97-07-25 20:56:06 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Agreed. Here's where I beg MM to do a reprint editions of MT (with the
 erratta applied) in two volumes (PM/IE/COACC, RM/RC/RebSB/HT)...
 <grovelling on floor> Please???</grovelling>
 
  >>
I love Traveller. But it cannot continue except through increased sales to an
ever widening group of people. And through distribution and retail store
sales, I would clearly wager that we woulnd't get enough pre-orders to
warrant the printing costs. No matter how much anyone says anything, we will
never go back to CT, MT, TNE.

I am working on T4.1, which improves upon T4, some of which is great and some
of which needs work.

Meanwhile, if you want MT, I can arrange to sell you a complete set.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:08:08 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: THUDDD distribution channels

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:14:11 -0500
> >> From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
> >> Craig Berry wrote:
> >> Could you put it on an FTP server?  
> >
> > Not easily.  How would this be superior to having it on the web?  What
> > environments offer FTP but not HTTP access tools?
> 
> Some shell accounts, also you can do ftp via email with a UUCP
> connection, but you can't do web stuff.

Well, actually that's not completely true. There are free services 
available that send you the webpages you ask for by mail. The one I 
occasionally use doesn't handle frames or any other new-fangled stuff, 
but if it looks okay on Lynx, it looks okay in mail.

To try it out, send a message to www@kfs.org with the urls you want in 
the body of the mail.
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:28:55 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: next THUDDD

Craig Berry wrote:

>
>Many people have asked me about what ship we'll be designing for THUDDD 6
>in August.  What I'm currently leaning toward is a TL 10 system defense
>boat (SDB).  The idea here is to develop a ship that one might encounter
>being used for security by a lowish-tech pocket empire, of which there are
>sure to be many.
>
>The other ideas I was throwing around were a 20-ton fighter and a
>500ish-ton lab ship.  However, I'd prefer to wait until FFS2 is available
>to tackle small-craft designs, and I just can't muster much enthusiasm for
>the lab ship.
>
>Comments?  Other suggestions?


	I like the SDB: it'd be fun to do something low-tech for once, and
we always seem to get more entries if it involves something armed :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:42:16 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Automatic Skills

Would someone please confirm my interpretation Automatic Skills to calm
my irate players; to wit:  Automatic skills are gained once and not on
each successive term.

Some of my players think that every term in the Army gives you another
Rifle skill and that Scouts get 9 skills/term.  (at least in T4.0).

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:14:16 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

Peter Miller wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > But specifically, I could see...
> >
> > MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
> >
> > Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
> >
> > What else?
>
> Basically, I believe that a lot of the careers should have their own
> book for grandeouse (eek! sp?), and larger than single character
> adventures.

Please, please, please! No Book per Career!!  I hate it when games
companies do that.  Witness TSR's huge assortment of class-type books
filled with useless drivel and bad artwork.  "The AD&D Guide to
Left-handed Half-Elven Rangers with Huge Cat familiars."  Please, god,
no!

Better is books on certain topics that may interest/affect multiple
character types.  Business: Merchants, Rogues, Nobles, Agents
(industrial espionage), Entertainers (consider the size of the
entertainment industry);
Exploration: Scouts, Scholars, Agents, misc.
Large-scale combat (Space and Ground): Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts.

[snip]

> "Megacorporations" for the Merchant
> "Syndicates" for the Rogue

These should be one book.

On Scholars, Entertainers and Agents:  the first two certainly don't
merit their own books, but Agent is a catch-all that could be/should be
in most all of the other subject areas.

However, I would support a large number of books, if they were *Small*
and *cheap*.
Talking $12 a book per career at most.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:54:01 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Double-Agent

Riddle me this, O Mighty Gods,

A Rogue maquerading as an Agent spends his odd terms posing as a
Merchant.

Whose odd terms?

How does he muster out?

If he's exposed, is he exposed as a Rogue or as an Agent or as Both?

Gods forbid, but the players will surely create one, a Rogue,
masquerading as an Agent, posing as a Rogue.  Oy vey!


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:49:57 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Rogue's Masquerade

When a rogue masquerades in career X, what happens to muster-out rolls?

Three possibilities:

Rogue (non-Masq.) Terms + Masq. Terms = rolls on Rogue M-O tables

Rogue (non-Masq.) Terms = rolls on Rogue M-O tables; Masq. Terms = rolls
on
       Masq. M-O tables

Rogue (non-Masq.) Terms + Rogue (Masq.) Terms = rolls on Rogue M-O
tables;
       Masq. Terms = rolls on Masq. M-O tables

(This ignores other bonuses to # of muster out rolls)

Thanks
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:59:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

Douglas Berry wrote:

>It wasn't your theory, it was your attitude.  You were dimissive,
>condescending, and rude.  I'm a great believer in the Golden rule, so I
>assumed that you were threating me the way you wished to be treated.

What is Dave G's rule, or do I need to try his website? ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:55:00 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

Craig Berry  wrote:

>> 	I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the
>> Traveller books I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this
>> something I've missed?  What references are there about them? Surely
>> various empires would have built these depots to cross rifts, saving
>> time and money. The possibilities here would be endless when you
>> consider the DS9 and B5 type stations that your players could come
>> across.
>
>This is only mentioned canonically in TNE, which puts it outside the Holy
>Church's jurisdiction according to some on this list. :)  The Regency
>Sourcebook (RSB) called such stepping-stone bases "Calibration Points"
>(CP), and marked the positions of (secret) military ones in the Regency.
>It also mentioned that others might easily exist, both secret and public.
>It certainly seems a natural thing to build, if a base on some
>interstellar iceball will cut 2 months off the passage between hi-pop
>worlds A and B -- and the company that builds it can get rich selling fuel
>and supplies to the traffic.
I'll leave it to those with broader CT/MT collections to inform us if
deep-space refuelling stations were ever mentioned before TNE.

Craig,

Arrival Vengeance had deep space refueling in it, and I've always inferred
that the Imperial Naval Couriers bypass Corridor from the MT source
material. (Hence Norris' advance warning of Strephon's death.

Bruce E J Lewis wrote:

>	Yes, some corporations would surely become rich enough to be able
>to build
>these things. Also, couldn't a deep space depot take the form of several
>large super tankers permanently moored around say a few powerful ships and
>few other ships for admin and R & R? Jump tankers could be continually
>jumping backwards and forwards between here and a near star system with a
>gas giant to refuel the moored tankers.

Bruce,

I've only done it in High Guard, but the costs to maintain large capacities
of fuel in deep space are expensive. I looked at supporting a CruRon (4 x
75kdt cruisers at J4 capacity) for J2 stand off raids (yes, I use jump
governers in my games), and you needed a 400,000 te tanker (albeit at TL12)
to do so. I would think that the costs of such bases would be expensive
even for a MegaCorp.

For the military and their 'Nemesis' cruisers it's a different matter!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:04:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rogue's Masquerade

In a message dated 97-07-26 08:03:57 EDT, you write:

<< 
Rogue (non-Masq.) Terms = rolls on Rogue M-O tables;
Masq. Terms = rolls on Masq. M-O tables
>>

This one makes most sense to me. But any Masq M-O benefits are "illegitimate"
(that is to say, they cannot be enforced or fully documented if questioned).
So the character might have TAS, but if it were questioned someone might find
irregularities. Noble lands would be ultimately founded on defective papers,
etc. A ship would be in his hands and being used, but the papers and
ownership are ultimately defective. All this traces back to the Masquerade.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:57:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: TNE vs MT/CT

> While it is true that TNE's mechanics are sufficently different from
Harold wrote:

>CT/MT that they are for the most part not compatible (afterall, much of
>TNE's mechanics come from Twilight:2000), the official timeline is the
>same in all three versions.  The only real difference is *where* on that
>timeline the action is taking place.  I could just as easily run a TNE
>campaign occuring in the year 1108 as I could a MT campaign occuring in
>the year 1202 or a CT campaign occuring in the year 1119.

The biggest difference other than the mechanics was the abandonment of
thrusters. Strangely, that was the one thing that really irritated me about
TNE. Virus I could handle...

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:25:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bounty hunting

In a message dated 97-07-26 07:10:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Anyway, strictly speaking bounty hunters can get real boring if you
 aren't carefull how you run the campaigns with them in them.  There is a
 real temptation to make them become a vehicle of "Monty Haul'ism."  
  >>
And such adventures need to have pushes as well as pulls. With the reward
being a pull, the push has to be the subject's friends trying to rescue him,
etc.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:20:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

In a message dated 97-07-26 07:58:13 EDT, you write:

Masquerade (Rogue). A Rogue may masquerade as an individual in a different
profession. After the first term as a Rogue, he or she may select any other
career or service and resolve up to 5 terms in that service in place of
Rogue. Failure of Continuance while in Masquerade forces a return to Rogue.
The final term for a Rogue must be as a Rogue.

Assumed Identities (Agent). On any even numbered term as an agent (2, 4, 6,
8, 10), an Agent may serve in any other service at a rank appropriate to age
and time in service, and receive skills from within that service.

<< 
 A Rogue maquerading as an Agent spends his odd terms posing as a Merchant.

T1 Rogue (required). T2. Agent. T3 (T2 as Agent) assumed identity as
Merchant. T4. Agent again. T5 (T4 as Agent) assumed identity as Merchant (or
whatever). T6 (T5 as Agent). Agent. T7 must resolve as Rogue.

Failure of continuance as Merchant (Exposed as an Agent) would force an Agent
to quit the assumed identity (ie. next term resolved as Agent; can't ever
assume identity as Merchant again; no MO benefits available as Merchant).

Failure of continuance as Agent (Exposed as a rogue) would force the Rogue to
quit his masquerade. Any number of future terms possible as Rogue. No future
Masquerade as Agent. No MO benefits possible as Agent.

<<but the players will surely create one, a Rogue, masquerading as an Agent,
posing as a Rogue.>>

Possible, but it would make my head hurt. And if the player insisted, I'd
make him keep it all straight.

Only one Masquerade per Rogue? Yes. We are talking about a roguish character
who adopts a different career as background rather than playing the Great
Pretender.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In a message dated 97-07-26 06:20:04 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Currently time in service academies don't count for retirement.
  >>
Do you mean when we look at real life activity as a model (ie, West Point),
or in the rules as they are written?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:24:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Automatic Skills

In a message dated 97-07-26 07:52:38 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Would someone please confirm my interpretation Automatic Skills to calm
 my irate players; to wit:  Automatic skills are gained once and not on
 each successive term.
 
 Some of my players think that every term in the Army gives you another
 Rifle skill and that Scouts get 9 skills/term.  (at least in T4.0).
 
  >>
Your interpretation is correct. You get one level of automatic skill upon
enlistment, not every term.

similarly, you get 1 level when commissioned or when promoted, not every
term.

Based on the automatic eligibilities, the norm is 1 skill per year (4 per
term) (from the tables) and probably 1 automatic skill per term (from
enlisting, being commissioned, promoted as an officer, etc). or about 1.25
skills per year overall.

My take on experience (and I want to revise it to this) is that after
character generation and while role-playing a character receives 1 new skill
on his birthday, and 1 new skill (in addition) every 4 years. See my previous
post on experience.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:31:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In a message dated 97-07-26 06:20:04 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Any promotion (enlisted or officer) should receive the extra skill 
 bonus.
  >>

But that means that in those careers with ranks, everyone gets +1 skill for
showing up, and +1 skill for enlisted promotion (+4 in the first term).

Everyone gets promoted as enlisted; its automatic. Giving a skill for that
really inflates skill levels.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...

In a message dated 97-07-26 04:16:36 EDT, you write:

<< - Homeworld TL again suitable for M:1100 (M0 mods?)
I don't understand.

 - Background skills: some only get 1, some as much as 4? Would be better
   to roll 4 times on any suitable (trade classification) table.
Life isn't fair. Some people get more from their background than others.
That's why we also allow the player to decide his/her homeworld is different
from his/her birthworld... in order to try for more skills).

 - Put some restrictions to skills: You shouldn't be able to get Grav
   Craft from TL 6 world.

 - I think it has been mentioned, but it's silly that all characters
   have almost the same EDU. I think EDU should be used as learning
   ability, so e.g., University shoold only give +1 to EDU.

I have tweaked the prerequisites for Edu to make it harder to get. But if you
go to University, you probably get a basic level of Edu. Honors get's you a
little more. 

 - Aging rolls after terms again? How about partial terms (education)?
   Why not use age as in T4?

Terms are still the breakpoint.

 - I'm giving all characters one free hobby skill each term, except in
   some special cases (like taking OTC which takes time...), so it's
   possible to get other skills, too.

So you are effectively increasing character's skill eligibility from about
1.25 per year to 1.5 per year.

 - Aren't there any more maximum age in Military and Naval Academy admission?

The Imperial Military Academy at Arpaget provides a trained corps of Army
officers for the service of the Imperium.
Prerequisite: End 8+, Int 8+, Edu 4+, Soc 8+, Age 19 -. 

 - OCS for marines?

Naval academy graduates can opt for a Marine commission instead of a naval;
commission.

 - How is honors determined in quick system?

The player/referee decides ("This guy has honors from University")

 - Please add more careers, from CT, MT (+COACC), Challenge, TNE(?),
   PE, TML...

Maybe at some future time.

 - It only specified in Eneri example, that character may have any
   education before he has to join Army/Navy, if he took (N)OTC.

That example has changed numerous times. In the current iteration, he has
joined the Army (via OTC).

 (extract) 5. Degree: Eneri does not meet the Int prerequisite for
University; he applies for a waiver, rolls 7, and the prerequisite is waived.
He applies at the University and is accepted. He perseveres but does not
achieve honors. He rolls twice for skill and receives Biology-2. He then
selects a major of Social Science (Archeology) and graduates with a BS and
Archeology-2, and Edu stays at 7.
	He also enrolls in OTC and receives Admin-1 (Bureaucracy) and Tactics-1 (he
must join the Army when he finishes his education).
	Eneri applies for Grad School, is accepted and perseveres, but again does
not receive honors. He continues his major (Social Science /Archeology),
takes Archeology-2, advances to Edu 8, and receives an MS.

 - How about giving bonus to promotion roll, if it failed last term? 50 year
old lieutenants are silly.

I think they are too. In the 1880's the US Army had quite a few (no wars, no
promotion, etc). Silly yes. Possible yes. If that happens to you, what
explanation do you create for the character: persecution, discrimination?
incompetence? lack of ambition?

 - I think skill increases should decrease in later terms as in TNE.
Otherwise, it's possible to create too skilled characters.

You just said you are giving your character +1 skill per term for a hobby
skill. I would delete that first.

 - Pension should more depend on career and rank.

Pension is for some slight cash flow for characters. I wanted to avoid
creating actuarially correct 401(k) plans for each career.

 - Skill-10:s are too much.

A. See the discussion of skill versus characteristics.
B. Skill-10 represents a singleminded pursuit of a specific area of knowledge
(to the exclusion of almost all else) for 10 years. 

 - Changing careers should be allowed, people do it all time.

Then jury is still out on this one. Some people want to change careers every
term (or every year). I have to say that this system let's you change
careers... when you muster ouyt and start adventuring, you have just changed
careers.

 - If character's are generated completely randomly, characters (especially
young) do not get skills that they'd supposedly get in basic training... All
marines get Cutlass, but they might not get Gun Combat? And not even Env
Cbt-0?

I had basic training. It didn't teach me hand-to-hand or gun combat. Some
people come out of their career with a lasting knowledge of some areas, and
not in others.

 - Is there any good reason to rename many skills (hmmm, I recognize  many
from CT/MT...)?

Yes. We renamed Charisma to Interact. There were reasons for other renamings.

  >>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1608
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1609



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planning Traveller Design
Re: Low tech firearms
Re: Planning Traveller Design
Re: Major/Minor Races
Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle
Re: Major/Minor Races
Farewell
Satellite Tool Kit available FREE!
Re: Deep Space
Re: FTL Commo?
Re: Deep Space Bases
Re: Grandfather Elvis
Re: Deep Space
Re: next THUDDD
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Deep Space Depots, Calibration Points, & costs
Re: TNE vs MT/CT
Re: Major/Minor Races
THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Re: Double-Agent
*Waaah* not a revised edition.
Re: Rogue's Masquerade
Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...
Prisons and Failed Injury Rolls

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:49:31 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:54:03 -0700
Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>
>Yet when I, along with a few others, pointed out to you how the list
>worked, we were brushed off with "you have to wait until *I'm* ready."  

Mr. Berry, what is wrong in not being prepared for something that I
didn't even expect, let alone along with the way that I was misinterpreted?
It took me a few weeks of introspection, along with some offline chats
well after the whole episode, to figure out the underlying autonomous
response I had to all of this.  Even when Mark Clark had hinted at the
notion that we don't all think alike, it didn't immediately figure in.

I am (was) so used to thinking about Traveller one way, and TML does it
a far different way. That's all.  No biggie, I am learning about TML's
way, but I see nothing so superior about it that I will give up my way.
That's fair, because I am _not_ asking anyone to give up their way.

If they want to learn from what I had (have) to say, so be it.  If they
don't, that is fine too.  Don't hate me for it.

>We took your evidence and refuted it point-for-point.  That's not a
>difference of opinion, that's using what you had to show your mistakes.

Yet when I didn't see the interpretations of the rules that you cited,
that makes me wrong.  Nice (double) standard there.

Tell you what, I've been thinking about taking some questions to you
offline about terraforming (because terraforming rules was not what
I was interested in discussing), since you say that you have been
using WBH for 10 years or so.  Would you care to put "list presence" and
ego aside, and have that discussion?

>*Sigh*  You announced that you had evidence that the RoM was at a very high
>TL.  You stated that this would change our worldview.  Only when you were
>proven wrong did you start saying that you were just trying to start
>discussion.. I find it hard to take you seriously when you lack the courage
>to admit that you were mistaken.

First off, all of these things I said that you all have been fond of quoting
have never been tempered with the proper context.  I placed it in the frame
of "having an open mind."  If I had said "proof of a high tech RoM" then
all of this category of response to what I said would be acceptable.

No matter how many people wrongly think I said something, doesn't put the
words (meaning) into my mouth.

<<Aslan Major Race theme>>
>Remember that according to that adventure, only a tiny minority know about
>the true story of the Pathfinder crash and the copied j-drives.  99.9% of
>all Aslan *know* that they developed jump drives on their own, and are a
>Major Race.

That doesn't prevent the referee and players from knowing about it.

>Douglas E. Berry

Da' Pope of Canon Inquisition, "Nobody expects a Canon Inquisition!"
Cardinal Fang? "You kissa da pope's hand--no inquisition."
B-)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:20:08 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Low tech firearms

There is a selection of TL0-5 firearms accesible from my guns page:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/guns.html
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:25:43 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Planning Traveller Design

At 02:40 AM 7/26/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Yes, but he isn't posting to the TML.  I could jump around and demand
>>recognition for my old Restored Catholic Empire game, but it won't fly. 
>>(I may put the backround on a web page someday..)  We have to operate in a
>>common milieu to get anything done.  Imagine a THUDDD if I posted a design
>>that had an AI computer at TL12 and force fields since that's the way *my*
>>game runs, while Roderick is using realistic engines and weapons for his
>>campaign.  Traveller Canon gives us a common ground on which to base
>>discussions and debate.  
>
>Whoa!
>
>Doug, I usually agree with you and in *general* I do on the above
>paragraph, but...;->
>
>Let's be very clear on the difference in "demand recognition for" and
>present as an alternative.  I agree that those of us that use alternative
>tech/backgrounds/rules shouldn't try to codify our alternatives into
>official Traveller lore.  I also believe, and I hope you agree with me,
>that we should be allowed (even encouraged) to post our ideas, alternatives
>and speculations to the list.

I really shouldn't write when I'm that tired.  I objected to Leroy's
declaration that what he had was canon.  I have no problem with divergent
or alternate settings, but for purpose of discussion here, we need to have
a common ground.  We have overturned pieces of canon.. remember the fighter
debate?  

I love seeing peoples' ideas and settings, reading the adventure logs, and
grabbing THUDDD designs.  What I object to is anyone other than Marc Miller
attempting to define what Traveller is for me, and even then I might not
listen to Marc!

>For instance, I'd like to see your notes on the Reformed Catholic Empire. 
>It's not official?  No, but so what. a good story, is a good story.  ;->

Yet another web page to design.....
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:55:46 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

At 01:53 pm 07/23/97 MET, you wrote:
>->     The's why all Aslan military starships still have their jump drives 
>-> made by "Boeing-Rockwell" in "Tycho City, Luna", in the year 2267.
>I think you read that wrong: It should be "Airbus-Daimler" ;-) 

	Given the pace of mergers, I think it would be BoeingWell DaimBus ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:48:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle

At 11:15 pm 07/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Volker A. Greimann:
>
>>- -> >> When, oh when, will the Holy Grail of Traveller be published (the CD
>with
>>- -> >> electronic versions of everything GDW and DGP printed)?
>>- -> >
>>- -> >And the special editions, with a scan of Marc's signature on...
>>- -> 
>>- -> I'm holding out for the audio track with Marc and Loren singing "In the
>>- -> Year 2525"...
>>Hey, this could actually sell ;-)
>
>You've never heard me sing, have you?

	Hey, I've heard Leonard Nimoy sing "If I Had A Hammer," and William
Shatner sing "Lucy In The Skies, With Diamonds." You could NOT be any worse ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:00:15 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

At 07:56 am 07/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>
>> ->     The's why all Aslan military starships still have their jump drives 
>> -> made by "Boeing-Rockwell" in "Tycho City, Luna", in the year 2267.
>> I think you read that wrong: It should be "Airbus-Daimler" ;-) 
>
>That's right, it came from a _crashed_ starship didn't it ;-)
>
>(I just saw the (Wings?) show on 'glass cockpits'. One segment has footage
>of the Airbus that crashed at the Paris Airshow some years back because
>the plane wouldn't let the pilot pull the nose up out of the trees)

	IIRC, it wasn't that the plane wouldn't let the pilot pull the nose out of
the trees. It was that the pilot was flying too slow, and couldn't.
Although the digital flight control system was built to automatically
respond to imminent stall (too slow), the pilot was flying too low. And
since landing is basically an imminent stall at low altitudes, the FCS
assumed the pilot knew what he was doing, and didn't intervene. Meanwhile,
the pilot "knew" the FCS would keep him out of trouble, so he pushed the
envelope.

	Shows what happens when _any_ user relies on an automated system with less
than full understanding of how it's designed.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:35:31 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Farewell

Folks,
	Regretfully, I have to leave the mailing lists for a while. There are too
many other things going on right now in my life for me to be able to
continue to participate in these discussions. It really bothers me to do
so, especially with FF&S2 being released Any Time Real Soon Now, but I
don't see any other way. I will try to remain on the GDW-Beta list, since
the traffic seems very light there, and I'll be happy to continue to answer
direct email. But for now, I'm signing off. Keep the flame!


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:34:49 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Satellite Tool Kit available FREE!

For those who haven't heard, Analytical Graphics, Inc. is releasing version
4.0 of their Satellite Tool Kit (STK) program, absolutely free. Their web
site says they've decided it's the best way to introduce engineers to its
power; the way I heard it, they lost a lawsuit claiming it was developed
with government money and hence _can't_ legally sell it. At any rate, the
add-on modules still cost large quantities of filthy lucre, but the basic
program is quite impressive for anybody wanting to model satellite orbits,
sensor and communicator field-of-view, etc., etc. Check it out at www.stk.com.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 17:53 BST-1
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Subject: Re: Deep Space

In-Reply-To: <199707260532.BAA04848@phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM>
Bruce E J Lewis wrote:

>       I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the 
Traveller books> I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this 
something I've missed?> What references are there about them?

Here's a nice old one, from Alien Module 6 - Solomani:

  "The range of the jump-1 drives first developed by UNSCA was 
insufficient to reach the nearest star - Alpha Centauri. It took 
several years before a US Space Force team based on Luna tried a 
mission which, in several trips, established an intermediate 
stopover and refuelling point about one parsec out. For various 
scientific reasons, the mission was to Barnard's star..."

And the rest is history, as they say.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:56:57 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: FTL Commo?

Anders Backman wrote:
> will even change my tagline to include "The bullheaded moron" if I find the
> actual experiments credible.
> 
> Could someone please direct me to sources  for this truly unbelievable
> scientific achievement?
> 
> /Anders Backman

Hi Anders!

The information is publicly available, and was published in an American
Physics Journal (Physics Today, I think).  It was in late 1995 or early
1996.  As I remember it, there were no phase speed or interference
effects
discussed, although at the conference I mentioned, several of the
physicists debated whether you could call the 40th symphony a true
"signal"
(since we already "know" its content before it arrives.)  In any case,
the tunneling effect was the real important key, but I haven't heard any
follow-up information on it at all since then.  

Please, please don't feel like I was at all upset with your posting!
I've just heard the phase speed argument so many times that I wanted
to emphasize that this is probably not what you were thinking about. 
But
even if I have given you the correct reference, there is absolutely no
need to apologize to anyone.  Especially me! I'm actually quite elated 
to be able to discuss and debate these issues with well-informed, 
technically proficient people.  I'll try to find the exact reference 
and get back to you, as I regret I was unable to keep the actual 
article.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:10:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Bases

> Bruce Lewis wrote: 
> 	Also, would it not be reasonable to assume that some races would have such
> an outlook on life etc that they may build these bases no matter what? For
> instance, forgive me for foregeting my history here ;-) but how long were
> the Solomanis in space before they encountered the Vilani? They could have
> built bases unaware that such a strong star-faring race was so close to
> them so figured on them being worth building.

	In fact, according to the CT Solomani Alien Module, this is 
precisely how the J-1 Terrans made their J-2 journey to Barnard -- deep 
space fuel depots.

> >I'll leave it to those with broader CT/MT collections to inform us if
> >deep-space refuelling stations were ever mentioned before TNE.
	See above.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Grandfather Elvis

> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:05:34 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> I am changing my last name.

To Presley, or to Yaskodray?

> Can I have that for the Silly era?

By all means!

> Doug Eneri.

"I'm Eneri the Eighth I am..."

Hang on, didn't somebody already right that, about a Vilani who replaced
seven previous Imperial governors clobbered by the Terrans?  Get *that*
for the Silly Era!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:15:13 +0100
> From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
> 
> At 13:47 25/07/97 -0700, Craig Berry wrote:
> >Yes, though like any such long logistics arm, it makes an especially
> >tempting target for your enemies.  Break any one link and everyone
> >"downstream" is suddenly in deep trouble.
> 
> 	But, if the empire was big enough, some bases could be well within its
> borders and therefore be very far away from where a first offensive would
> take place.

You have to distinguish between two types of CPs (I'll use the TNE
abbreviation for convenience): internal and external.

Internal CPs are of the type you posit above.  They are used to make
transportation inside an empire easier, and aren't very vulnerable to
attack.  However, they also aren't very useful in launching an attack,
other than making it possible to get all your assets to one spot on your
border somewhat more quickly.  A good analogy here is the US interstate
freeway system, which was actually sold to Congress partly in terms of its
military-deployment advantages.

External CPs are placed outside the empire, and are used to launch deeper
attacks into enemy space.  These are the type your original PE question
seemed to address.  If kept secret, they can be devestatingly effective; 
what's more, the simple *possibility* of their existence forces your
opponent -- and you -- to approach defense much more conservatively, which
in turn can limit the ability to attack.  However, if the enemy does find
your CP, it's a small, high-value, and isolated target; and so much the
more if it's early in a *chain* of CPs.

> 	Also, would it not be reasonable to assume that some races would
> have such an outlook on life etc that they may build these bases no
> matter what? For instance, forgive me for foregeting my history here ;-)
> but how long were the Solomanis in space before they encountered the
> Vilani? They could have built bases unaware that such a strong
> star-faring race was so close to them so figured on them being worth
> building.

Actually, the Solomani ran into the Vilani practically as soon as they
left Sol System.  However, the circumstances you describe might well have
occurred elsewhere.

> 	Yes, some corporations would surely become rich enough to be
> able to build these things. Also, couldn't a deep space depot take the
> form of several large super tankers permanently moored around say a few
> powerful ships and few other ships for admin and R & R? Jump tankers
> could be continually jumping backwards and forwards between here and a
> near star system with a gas giant to refuel the moored tankers. 

That's almost certainly the wrong way to do it.  Interstellar space is
peppered with small, icey bodies, which would be comets if they ever
happened to fall near a star.  Each contains a bazillion tons of water,
methane, ammonia, and other hydrogen-rich ices.  Thus, it makes enormously
better sense to land a refinery on such a body and produce fuel in situ.
Even when this body is tapped out (not likely within a century or so), you
just move the whole operation to another similar body, one of which is
sure to exist within 100 AU or so.

> 	And as for secret bases, wouldn't there be a few Ancient ones
> lying around somewhere? Just imagine the sight of finding a million ton
> hulk of metal floating in a non-star hex, totally alien, no lights, no
> signal emissions, just asking to be explored... 

A sight many of us have imagined. :)  David Brin's "Uplift" series of
novels includes this idea, by the way.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: next THUDDD

> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 06:28:55 -0400
> From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> 
> 	I like the SDB: it'd be fun to do something low-tech for once, and
> we always seem to get more entries if it involves something armed :).

You've spotted the same pattern I did. :)  However, there is one further
oddity -- though the current (yacht) THUDDD attracted fewer entries than
any previous one, it's also drawing more voters by a wide margin than the
previous (exploratory trader) THUDDD.  Still not sure what this is telling
us...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:16:05 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

	Hello!


On 26 Jul 97 at 5:15, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> Meanwhile, if you want MT, I can arrange to sell you a complete set.

	I've been hoping somebody would say something like this.... :)

	I have most of the published MT books, but since you said the above, 
I though I'd ask you if you'd have an extra copy of DGP's "Solomani & 
Aslan". I've been hunting for this book pretty desperately, I think 
it was never imported here.

	BTW. A while ago you said there's ben some trouble with the reprint 
of the CT alien modules. Have the heard anything from the company? I 
have one copy reserved, but I'm holding out for a while to see if 
this thing turns out to be a hoax. It's still around $180 incl. 
postage and insurance, I could put that money to much better use (= 
buying the two CT Alien modules I'm missing, + Alien Realms .. if 
only somebody would sell them!).


/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:19:36 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Deep Space Depots, Calibration Points, & costs

What about the economics of a deep space depot?  Without a supporting
planetary system, EVERYTHING must be brought in. Any fuel tanker capable of
j4 (40% volume for jump fuel) or more is going to use as much fuel to
deliver fuel as what it can carry to be delivered. This would limit such
depots to j3 or so apart. With no income generated by local exports to help
defray the operational costs, who ever runs them will have to either raise
prices on what will be purely pass thru traffic, or will have to have really
deep pockets lined from some other source. 

Military opertions don't have to show a profit, so a government supported
Naval depots every 3 parsecs or so across the Great Rift to shorten response
time between the Imperium and the Spinward Marches makes sense. How many
Naval bases allow civilian freighters to tank up on Naval fuel reserves just
so the civilian could take a short cut?

One contributing reason as to why Mains of J1 routes are still profitable in
a J6 world is that you can carry more salable cargo on a J1 ship than on a
J6 ship. Doesn't Pocket Empires have a declining value to trade the further
the trade has to travel? I know PE says that the trade tables are good up to
about 80 worlds, but I didn't mark the section of effects of distance on
trade value, so I have to hunt from the start again. 

Garry
   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:26:12 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: TNE vs MT/CT

On 26 Jul 97 at 13:57, SD Mooney wrote:

> The biggest difference other than the mechanics was the abandonment
> of thrusters. Strangely, that was the one thing that really
> irritated me about TNE. Virus I could handle...

	I've always felt the opposite; I dislike, hell, I hate the TNE 
setting. HEPlaRs were the only improvement over MT. Even if 
unrealistic, they're still way more believable than thruster plates 
(which I've rated TL 15+, and only used by the Hivers.

/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:48:21 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 01:53 pm 07/23/97 MET, you wrote:
> >->     The's why all Aslan military starships still have their jump drives
> >-> made by "Boeing-Rockwell" in "Tycho City, Luna", in the year 2267.
> >I think you read that wrong: It should be "Airbus-Daimler" ;-)
> 
>         Given the pace of mergers, I think it would be BoeingWell DaimBus ...

How about Geshikstries Sternshiffbau AG (sp? = GSbAG). 

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

It appears that we have a consensus on doing the TL-10 System Defense Boat
(SDB) for the August THUDDD, so that's now the official choice.  Now, does
a size range of 500-800 tons make sense to everyone, or should it be
narrower, broader, higher, lower, or some combination of these?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:17:01 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> We are talking about a rogue character who adopts a different career
> as background rather than playing the Great Pretender.
>
> Marc

Now there is a good film rogue!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:17:36 -0700
From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
Subject: *Waaah* not a revised edition.

I just bought T4, and then I find out a revised edition is due out! How
irritating! How many changes will T4.1 introduce? Can I get a summary of
the changes so I don't have to buy a new book just after buying the old
one?

Eric J
Alric@SpryNet.Com
Fuzion Page: http://members.aol.com/rfintnl/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:14:13 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rogue's Masquerade

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-07-26 08:03:57 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> Rogue (non-Masq.) Terms = rolls on Rogue M-O tables;
> Masq. Terms = rolls on Masq. M-O tables
> >>
>
> This one makes most sense to me.

Great minds and all that.  ;-)

> But any Masq M-O benefits are "illegitimate"
> (that is to say, they cannot be enforced or fully documented if
> questioned).
> So the character might have TAS, but if it were questioned someone
> might find
> irregularities. Noble lands would be ultimately founded on defective
> papers,
> etc. A ship would be in his hands and being used, but the papers and
> ownership are ultimately defective. All this traces back to the
> Masquerade.
>
> Marc

Excellent idea!  I'll have to incorporate that.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:29:21 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

[snip]

>  - Changing careers should be allowed, people do it all time.
>
> Then jury is still out on this one. Some people want to change careers
> every
> term (or every year). I have to say that this system let's you change
> careers... when you muster ouyt and start adventuring, you have just
> changed
> careers.

Did I miss something in the T4.1 stuff?  You can't change careers?

"Bloo"
aka Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:36:03 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Prisons and Failed Injury Rolls

I always hated the required muster-out after injury rule in T4.0.  4.1's

method is much better.  I think that the Injury gives a unique
opportunity to flesh out a character in interesting ways.  4.1 does this

by awarding medals.  But I wanted a little more.  So, I made up
something with the help of my brother.

I think a list of possibilities from failed injury rolls would be
interesting.  Say a Injury Results table for each career with Prison/POW

and physical injury on each.  Others: Merchant goes bankrupt, Noble is
revealed as a Bastard (What do you call an illegitmate female?),
Entertainer involved in Scandal, Scout gets lost, Military gets
*de*-moted, Scholar gets proven wrong, Agent gets cover blown or too
popular to do job, Rogue's masquerade gets revealed, etc.  Some injuries

force you to muster-out, some don't.  Some are physical injuries, some
are financial/professional/etc.


Here's the story on  what we made:  Prisoner/POW.

Rogues who fail to pass an injury roll go to Prison.  Yes, Prison.  But
isn't prison dangerous?  Exactly!  Might a PC learn some dangerous
skills in prison?  Exactly!

We expanded the basic idea of a prison for criminals into one that
includes prisoners of war (both captured military and civilians caught
behind lines for espionage, etc. - its a 10- roll that military become
POWs and Civilians become criminal prisoners - failure means a military
person in the stockade or civilian in POW camp).

Prisoners have to make an injury roll for physical injury (no medals or
anything else - like being sent to prison from prison - available).

Instead of commission/promotion, there is Escape/Exhonerated,
the former for POWs, the latter for criminals.  Then roll one-die to
determine which year this happens.  For civilians, the character has
been completely vindicated (although I should probably allow a
a civilian to escape, too, but of course, they would be wanted ;-).
POWs return to safe lines.  There are DMs for Soc, Military Rank,
and prison terms served.  This roll is optional.  (Some people like to
stay in prison ;-)

Next come the skills and benefits.  All civilian prisoners suffer
immediate -2 Soc but gain Streetwise-2 automatically.  All POWs and
prisoners get 1 skill/year; POWs get +1 skill/term because of the more
structured envirionment.  Military career PCs terms count towards
mustering out.

Finally, instead of continuance is Parole/Release.  This has a DM for
terms served.  (I may add one for Law skill).  The criminal prisoner has

a record but has served his time.  The POW has either been traded in a
prisoner swap or the war is over.  The PC then returns to the previous
career.  There are no mustering out rolls at all.

Overall, I like it but it needs some tweaking.  The Parole/Release roll
isn't hard so most characters don't spend more than one term in prison.
I've assumed for playability's sake that the crimes committed for
civilian prisoners are not serious enough to warrant death or long-term
committment.

Perhaps I should post it here??  I could put it on my webpage, but
that'll take a few days.  Of course, I can email it on request.

Just some ideas and I welcome your comments.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1609
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 26 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1610



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Bounties, and the hunting thereof
Re: Planning for Traveller Design
Re: psi institutes
Re: IG's (Non)Attendance at Conventions
Re: B5 was Psi institues
Psionic Institutes Checklist
Sector and Subsector Names
[none]
Cannon?!?
Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Re: Bounties, and the hunting thereof
Re: Deep Space
Eurisko and Trillion Credit Squadron
THUDDD SDB Competition
Re: Bounty hunting
Re: Overwhelmed by the TML!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 00:17:03 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Bounties, and the hunting thereof

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:25:20 -0500
From: Steve Daniels responded to;
> 
> John_Wood@cbtsys.com wrote:
> 
> > I have been thinking about starting a campaign in which the players are
> > bounty hunters (agents). Given the maxim that the imperium rules the space
> > between the stars and not the member worlds, do people think there will be
> > a niche for bounty hunters fulfilling imperial arrest warrants by hunting
> > down fugitives taking refuge on member worlds? What sort of treaties and
> > legal constraints do you think will exist to address this area of law
> > enforcement/arrest evasion. And what do you see as the role of the
> > Imperial
> > ministry of justice in all of this - do they license bounty hunters,
> > or
> > issue arrest warrants for certain crimes that empower its agents to
> > venture
> > outside the extrality fence into member worlds jurisdiction? Will
> > there be
> > an analogue of the FBI or Interpol in the imperium? 

Yes, there will be a niche for bounty hunting. I would 
think the Imperium as the Metropole would establish that a duely 
autherised person may land on any member world, and excute a warrent.
Though, even with a valid "Hunting License" the party in question, 
would be limited to sidearm, and be libel for the the misuse of such.
( Read reasonable use of force )
The method for the issuing of a warrent probally the "world where the
crime took place would, request that the MOJ to issue a warrent. The MoJ 
would judge the merrit of the request and act accordingly. 


>    Interesting Topic.  I think you'd have 2 types of bounty hunters -
> Imperially licensed and non-licensed because you'd have two types of
> fugitives: fugitives from Imperial law and fugitives from member world
> law.

Probably not, just Imp. Licensed acting on a MoJ Warrent. A non-Licensed
Hunter would tread all over the member worlds soverinty. Out side the
Imperium this would not be a problem, inside one big hassle.

> Imperial warrants would issue (or an Imperial bounty would be available
> for) fugitives from imperial law.  

Hun?
 
> These are probably laws that either
> interfere directly with the Arms of the Imperium (its agencies, etc.) or
> that interfere with the Laws of Imperial Space (piracy, etc.).  I think
> only an Imperially-licensed bounty hunter should be able to collect
> rewards on these fugitives.  

No, a bounty would apply to any person who captures said fugitives.

> This license should give some protection
> from or immunity to member world laws that might interfere with capture
> of the fugitive, at least to whatever extent is "reasonably necessary to
> effectuate capture."  [Can you tell I'm a law student?] :-P

Yes a Imperial License would allow more lattude in such things
as weapon restrictions. And give the holder a legal standing, in cases
were the local goverment were to become involved. (As I said before
reasonable force, as for being a law student anyone who is involved
in Law Enforcment has had this beat in to their heads)

> Member-world bounties would normally have no standing on other member
> worlds.  Thus, fugitives from one world may find refuge on another.
> Same for bounty hunters; authority on one world doesn't translate to
> another.  However, harboring fugitives might be bad for business for
> most worlds, depending on the number and type of fugitives.  Some might
> turn a blind-eye to both the fugitive and the bounty hunter, as long as
> business isn't interfered with.  Some might actively work against the
> bouty hunter.  In general, I think the higher the law level, the more
> likely a member-world is to co-operate with the bouty hunter, although
> the  weapons and methods allowed may be heavily restricted.  (A
> very-high law world may not allow the bounty hunter to do anything but
> wait for the domestic authorities to capture the fugitive).

See above arguement.

> Its conceiveable that the Imperium itself might 'harbor' fugitives from
> the laws of a member-world, and a bounty hunter might be working against
> the interests of the Imperium in trying to bring the fugitive to the
> member-world's idea of justice.

Yes, the exception proves the rule. ( Also read, Goddamned Spooks )

> I think a good thing to create for such a campaign, and all perhaps, is
> a list of High Crimes that are forbidden on all member-worlds and in
> Imperium Space.  Such things might include Genocide, Imperial Treason,
> Mass Destruction (of a population center, say).

I would add kidnapping, Murder, and certain Grand Larceny Crimes. 


Evyn
- -- 

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear.

But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

		Legionnaire Alan Seeger
		KIA the Somme
		AD 1916

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Planning for Traveller Design

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970723062758.24862A-100000@internet.oit.edu>

Mark,

> to the point we can agree.  The Rule of Man tech level debate is an
> example of that, I think - aside from yourself, we agreed that a tech
> level of 12-low 13 was about right, with perhaps +1 in medical and
> biotech.

The final vote result, BTW, was

11- : 0
12  : 6
13  : 3
14+ : 0
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: psi institutes

In-Reply-To: <19970724194958Z42928-1026+1283@utu.fi>

RFXn,

> > Does everybody here know about Claudia Christian leaving?
>  
> Gee man, thanmks for the spoiler. I needed to know that.

It tells you nothing about the *plot*, so it's not a spoiler. If I'd 
said, "Ivanova dies in the last ep of season 4[1]," *that* would be a 
spoiler. The character could be recast.

If I'd announced CC's *death*, would that be a spoiler?


[1] I made that up, BTW. I've only seen up to 401.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: IG's (Non)Attendance at Conventions

In-Reply-To: <33D57CA4.48C0@siscom.net>

Harold,

> If I were a RPG game manufacturer, attendence both GenCon and Origins
> would pretty much be mandatory.  I would also pick several of the
> Dragon*Con-sized events to send representatives--you pretty much want to
> make sure you hit each region of the country at least once.  As for
> international events, that would depend upon my travel budget.  Going to
> a convention in Europe can get very expensive.

How big is the European market compared to the US one? It may be worth the 
expense. Alternatively, let groups like BITS do the work for you.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:11 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: B5 was Psi institues

In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970724171502.007ffda0@pop.ma.ultranet.com>

Mark,

> >Does everybody here know about Claudia Christian leaving?
>  
>   NO!  I just checked the Lurker site about two weeks ago.  What's the deal?

Basically, CC wanted 4 eps off during Season 5, so she could make a film. 
Exactly what happened next depends on who you ask, but basically the two 
parties failed to come to an agreement, and the deadline for her signing on is 
now past. JMS blames her, she blames the studio. Either way, a new character 
is being brought in to replace Ivanova for at least the first few episodes 
(they have to be written *now*), and probably the entire season.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:11:11 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Psionic Institutes Checklist

I've read a bit more of this, and I'm still enjoying it.  Chapter 4
(Institutes) has some very nice examples, which really bring the earlier
rules material to life.  My personal favourite is the Ladies' Homemaker
Society - wonderful name!  Unfortunately, there are quite a few typos in
the Institutes' stats - mostly in the UIDs - and the format is not
consistent, which makes the chapter less useful for reference.

Here's a checklist for Institute generation, including a few ideas of my
own.  New or modified stages are marked with a *.  As always, GM fiat
should be used instead of random rolls whenever desired.

All comments welcome.


WORLD DETERMINATION:

 1.   Pick a world, or roll up a UWP.

 2.   Roll for UAP (pp.15-16).

*3.   If Pocket Empires is available, determine Plurality of Opinion:

        (2D + Unity - Self-Determination) / 2

      [This gives a result of -4 to 15, mode 4.5 - if you want to record
       this as a digit, an alternative is to add 4 to this number and
       make it 0-19 (0-K) instead.  Obviously the table values would
       need adjusting, too.]

        < 0: Almost everybody agrees with the UAP.
        0-2: There are a number of minority groups with differing
             opinions, but they have little influence or popular
             support.
        3-6: Different pressure groups represent a wide range of
             opinions.
        7-9: The population is severely divided on the issue of
             Psionics.
        10+: There is almost no agreement.  The UAP represents at best
             an average, but is likely to vary depending on the survey
             methods used.

*4.   Roll for presence of Psionic Institutes (p.17).  Note the margin
      of success for each type found to exist (for example, rolling 3
      against a target number of 5 yields a margin of 2).

*5.   Determine the number of Institutes.  For each type of Institute
      represented on the world, roll 2D and add the margin:

           -7:  1 Institute.
         8-12:  2 Institutes.
        13-15:  1D+1 Institutes.
        16-19:  1D+2 Institutes.
          20+:  2D+1 Institutes

      [This is a bit too complicated.  Anyone with a better suggestion?]


INSTITUTE DETERMINATION:

 6.   Generate the UID and Specials (pp.18-20):

   a. Student Population Digit (SP, p.18).

   b. Student to Instructor Rating (IR, p.18).

   c. Amenities Rating (AM, p.18).

   d. Overall Quality (QI, p.19).

*  e. Special Ability.  Roll 2D.  On a 12, the Institute teaches a
      special ability - roll on the Special Ability Matrix (p.22) to
      determine which.

*  f. Number of Departments (ND, p.19).  If the Institute teaches a
      Special Ability, a roll of 0 or less means it is the only ability
      taught.  Otherwise, follow the normal rules.

   g. Quality of Individual Departments (p.19).  Don't forget the
      Special Ability Department if one exists.

 7.   Roll for tuition cost (p.21).

*8.   Determine number of campuses.  Look up the appropriate type and
      SP, and roll 2D.  A roll of equal to or lower than the number on
      the matrix indicates more than one campus. A "---" indicates
      combinations that don't exist, or that are always confined to a
      single campus.

        Type/SP Matrix:
             SP0  SP1  SP2  SP3  SP4  SP5  SP6
        --------------------------------------
         CI  ---   6-   7-   8-   9-  10-  11-
         EI  ---  ---   2-   3-   4-   5-   6-
         GI  ---   3-   4-   5-   6-   7-   8-
         SS  ---   4-   5-   6-   7-  ---  ---

      If more than one campus is found to exist, add 1D to the amount by     
      which the roll succeeded:

          1-4:  2 campuses.
          5-6:  1D+1 campuses.
          7-8:  1D+2 campuses.
         9-10:  2D+1 campuses.
        11-13:  1D*5 campuses.
        14-15:  2D*5 campuses.

      [Again, this is a bit too complicated.  Any better ideas?]

 9.   Write Institute History.  GM creativity required.

10.   Write Institute Physical Description.  GM creativity required.

11.   Determine Notable Faculty Members.  GM creativity required.
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:46:32 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Sector and Subsector Names

Its ben so long since I played Traveller, that I have no idea what the
names are of many sectors and subsectors are.  I finally found a CT map
of Known Space which was a help, but it has many gaps.  Anyone know
where I can get a list of as many sector names as possible?  I've got
the names of the 8 in FS and know where the Spinward Marches, Old
Expanses and Ley Sectors are, but that is about it.  I'd also welcome
any info on known subsector names in prominent sectors (I didn't
purchase FS yet because of the forthcomin Mileu 0 hardcover.)

Thanks.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:49 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: [none]

Mike Peters Wrote.
>  Computers, definitely computers. The computers in all of the editions
>of Traveller have been under rated. Something along the line of a (and I
>hate to say this!) cyberpunk set of rules for programming and using
>computers. IIRC Traveller 2300 had a couple of good ideas in this line.
>Let's face it looking at what most of us are using now, I don't buy the
>limits on ship board computers for a second. By the 3I I'd expect the
>computers to be able to handle most of the functions on their own.

Book 8: Robots, also made clear some of the emerging assumptions about
computer power for MT. A TL 12 computer is capable of QUITE a bit of
processing power. I once sat down and figured out just how much was in a
model 1, 2, and 3... and they all came out with at least low autonomous,
and were capable of understanding spoken word at TL 9+.


>A Noble steps on his yacht, blonde on his arm. The lights snap on as
>they pass through the access hall from the small boat bay. Temperature,
>humidity, light level, etc. adjusts to the Nobles preferences.
>"Hello, (Baron, Marquis, Duke, etc.). How are you today?"

Emotion Simulation program at work.

>"Fine, Ship. Listen, take us once around the moons of -----. Oh, and
>hold all calls." he leads the blonde toward the onboard swimming pool.
>Elsewhere in the ship the maneuver drives light up. The ship's computer
>connects to e the planetary databanks and confirms it's own calculations
>of the locations of the various bodies in the current solar system,
>calculates a course, downloads it to the network and various agencies
>involved, then begins to implement it. At the same time it adjusts the
>temperature of the water in the pools, switches on the Noble's favorite
>music, and begins a 3-D projection of a tropical island beach around the
>walls of the pool room.

Environmental control program.

>"Oh, Ship, a couple of Mai Tai's please."
>Promptly a small extension unit (robot) mixes the drinks to the specs
>stored in the computer, then trundles on nearly silent wheels, to the
>poolside. Meanwhile the ship executes several course adjustments. All
>without another person aboard.

Steward, pilot, and astrogation programs.

All in CT, Bk 8.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:55 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Cannon?!?

>Leroy,
>
>I haven't weighed in on your ROM TL discussion because, being an
>arch-heretic, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other...I'll set the
>TL for the ROM (if my universe has a ROM) at whatever I want it to be,
>anyway.  ;->
>
>>  (If you are LOL right now having heard that from me, consider that
>>   pre-conceived notions about my approach to canon may be wrong.  I
>>   had a pre-conceived notion about TML that canon is the Mother and
>>   canon is the Father.  I may have been wrong there, but that is how
>>   I chose to start the discussion of RoM TL.
>
>Oh never fear, the "Canonists" *are* around. Right, William? ;->

We aren't as strong a lobby as we once were. Truth be told, I am a
mechanist as much as a cannonist, and yes, Mr Hale and I agree, TNE at DID
leave the Timeline intact, even though it %&*^ed up the 3I. T4, however, is
changing the background, slowly now, but it seems to me, at an ever
increasing pace... it should become freed of the baggage to develop how it
wants to, and to shut us cannonists up... ;-)

[snip]

>Don't fall for that "one true way" stuff!

There is ALWAYS  "ONE TRUE WAY!" ;-)

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:35:29 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

At 12:06 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>It appears that we have a consensus on doing the TL-10 System Defense Boat
>(SDB) for the August THUDDD, so that's now the official choice.  Now, does
>a size range of 500-800 tons make sense to everyone, or should it be
>narrower, broader, higher, lower, or some combination of these?

Bring it up to 1000 tons.  That should give us a wide variety of designs.
Also, think about a price cap for the entire system; we'ed might work
smarter if faced with a budget.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:29:15 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bounties, and the hunting thereof

At 12:17 AM 1/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:25:20 -0500
>From: Steve Daniels responded to;

>Yes, there will be a niche for bounty hunting. I would 
>think the Imperium as the Metropole would establish that a duely 
>autherised person may land on any member world, and excute a warrent.
>Though, even with a valid "Hunting License" the party in question, 
>would be limited to sidearm, and be libel for the the misuse of such.
>( Read reasonable use of force )
>The method for the issuing of a warrent probally the "world where the
>crime took place would, request that the MOJ to issue a warrent. The MoJ 
>would judge the merrit of the request and act accordingly. 

Then you'd have the MoJ treading on the rights of the world. "What do you
mean not valid?!  He WALKED ON THE GRASS!!!  That's a major FELONY here!!"

Picture what would happen at the other end of things also.. "He's wanted
for walking on the grass?  That's not a crime!  Let him go, or I'll arrest
you for kidnapping!  I don't care about your Imperial Bounty Hunter
License, this isn't the starport, you follow *our* laws here!"

>>    Interesting Topic.  I think you'd have 2 types of bounty hunters -
>> Imperially licensed and non-licensed because you'd have two types of
>> fugitives: fugitives from Imperial law and fugitives from member world
>> law.
>
>Probably not, just Imp. Licensed acting on a MoJ Warrent. A non-Licensed
>Hunter would tread all over the member worlds soverinty. Out side the
>Imperium this would not be a problem, inside one big hassle.

Once again, if the Imperium is licensing these guys, they are basically
saying "go forth, and do what you have to."

In NA, bounty hunters are private citizens who usually work for bail
bondsmen.  They are not licensed, nor do they have any authority beyond
that of a private citizen.  They simply have the skills to track down bail
jumpers.

In the Imperium, a local jurisdiction might publish a wanted list as a
matter of public record, complete with rewards offered.  A bounty hunter
would then be on his own tracking down the fugitive.  If the bounty hunter
breaks the law on whatever planet he's on, he may find himself being hunted.

>> Imperial warrants would issue (or an Imperial bounty would be available
>> for) fugitives from imperial law.  

For Imperial fugitives, the Navy/scouts would be able to control the choke
points (starports) fairly well.  They just inform the locals that fritz the
Unwashed is on their world, as is wanted by His Majesty's Government.

>> These are probably laws that either
>> interfere directly with the Arms of the Imperium (its agencies, etc.) or
>> that interfere with the Laws of Imperial Space (piracy, etc.).  I think
>> only an Imperially-licensed bounty hunter should be able to collect
>> rewards on these fugitives.  
>
>No, a bounty would apply to any person who captures said fugitives.

Exactly.  If Fred the Pirate attempts to hijack me, and I knock him cold,
I'm going to want that MCr.3 reward money!

>> This license should give some protection
>> from or immunity to member world laws that might interfere with capture
>> of the fugitive, at least to whatever extent is "reasonably necessary to
>> effectuate capture."  [Can you tell I'm a law student?] :-P
>
>Yes a Imperial License would allow more lattude in such things
>as weapon restrictions. And give the holder a legal standing, in cases
>were the local goverment were to become involved. (As I said before
>reasonable force, as for being a law student anyone who is involved
>in Law Enforcment has had this beat in to their heads)

But Imperial authority doesn't go past the starport gate.  Much in the same
way the FBI has to be invited to take part in most cases, the Imperium
cannot run roughshod over its allegedily sovergn members.



- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:19:44 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Deep Space

A couple of points about deep space refuelling points:

(1) Since thruster plates wor very poorly outside a solar system, they're
somewhat inefficient to assemble and use; it will typically take a couple
of days for a ship to rendezvou with one once it comes out of jump.

(2) Like most fixed installations, they're fairly vulnerable, especially
to hypervelocity missile attacks; if your enemy knows where they are,
they're dead.

The exception to both these are stations built on a pre-existxing planetoid
or (most desirable) free planet, which is why such things are so valuable...

AN interesting way to get perspective on such things is to toss them into
FFW as a variant - give each side one or two (set up completely hidden)
which can refuel (say) 2 squadrons, and can themselves be refuelled by a tanker,
but are destroyed by any enemy unit in the same hex.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:03:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Winchell Chung <nyrath@clark.net>
Subject: Eurisko and Trillion Credit Squadron

Could somebody pretty please give me a pointer
to which archive has the discussion of
the Eurisko AI program and its entry in
the Trillion Credit Squadron tourney?

I'm interested in learning all the gory details.
Thanks in advance!

BTW, if anybody wants help with making a 3-d starmap
for traveller, check out my web site at

http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 01:10:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: THUDDD SDB Competition

Might I suggest that instead of setting a specific price or tonnage limit for
this SDB, we set out the Mission Requirements and allow the Good Folks of the
ISBA do their creative best to meet them.  After all in the real Milieu 0
you're going to have Ship Builders going crazy to meet the needs of this
exploding market.  And none of them would come up with the same solution for
the same price or tonnage.
    Besides, this way we get the widest variety of designs. ;) While you can
guarentee that the THUDDD winner and cheapest runner up are going to be the
more common in Imperial and Gashda space.  That doesn't mean the others will
not be found out there too. ;) Speaking as a GM, I want the widest variety
possible, if only to have something to spring on my players at the appropriate
moment.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:37:35 -0400
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Bounty hunting

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------9241D2D28CEA11425DF5978B
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-07-26 07:10:50 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  Anyway, strictly speaking bounty hunters can get real boring if you
>  aren't carefull how you run the campaigns with them in them.  There is a
>  real temptation to make them become a vehicle of "Monty Haul'ism."
>   >>
> And such adventures need to have pushes as well as pulls. With the reward
> being a pull, the push has to be the subject's friends trying to rescue him,
> etc.
> 

hehe....  that reminds me of a side plot to a campaign of mine that I
pulled to give me time to set up the next part of the "script."  I had
one of my PC's captured by a bounty hunter.. "damn... Rory didn't show
up for breakfast this morning... anybody seen him???   Yeah... He as on
his way back to the hotel at about 2AM this morning from that bar we
were in last night... haven't seen him since." 

It was, on the bounty hunter's part, a case of mistaken identity. 
However, this did not matter as will become clear later in this story. 

The PC party then went through the drill of figuring out what happened
to their freind and then chasing the bounty hunter and their friend
through 4 parsecs of space (maybe more, this was 12 years ago) to rescue
him.  

The Prosecutor on the world that their freind was taken to was in
political hot water and needed a sensational conviction of a criminal to
divert attention from a scandal he was facing.  The hapless PC was
railroaded through the planet's "justice system" and found guilty even
though he was the wrong guy, had never been to that planet before, the
evidence was shoddy, etc. etc. etc.

The PC party ended up staging a jail breakout of their freind and
hauling tail off the planet with the planetary Navy's system defense
force hot on their tails. (Shades of Han Solo and "The Millenium Falcon"
episodes on Star Wars)   

As a result they all now truly fugitives from justice as a result of
this side adventure.  Eventually within the campaign I contrived a way
for them to clear their names, though I don't remember how.  

- -- 
PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:06:26 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Overwhelmed by the TML!

Moin Douglas E. Berry,

> >PS Please, no more copies?! ;-)

	upload it to a ftp server !

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1610
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1611



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Re: THUDDD distribution channels
Re: next THUDDD
Re: next THUDDD
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1610
Re: Grandfather Elvis
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1609
Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Tech Level Chart
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Double-Agent
Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Re: IG Web Page & mailing list
Re: Automatic Skills
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: CharGen and Injury
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Roswell
Re: Tactics Skill for Naval Officers
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Sector and subsector names
RE: T4.1 Characters
Re: Noble Lands
Playing in my area

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:11:54 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

Moin Douglas E. Berry,

> Bring it up to 1000 tons.  That should give us a wide variety of designs.
> Also, think about a price cap for the entire system; we'ed might work
> smarter if faced with a budget.

	see my posting for price limit

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:16:43 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD distribution channels

Moin Jonas Karlsson,

> To try it out, send a message to www@kfs.org with the urls you want in 
> the body of the mail.

	Ok its posible to download http even if you only have email,
	but the main problem is http upload. A ftp server sharing
	a directory tree with a http server, would make it posible
	to upload stuff in a incoming directory, send a mail to the
	THUDDD master who arange it in the pages !

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:58:08 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: next THUDDD

Moin Craig Berry,

> You've spotted the same pattern I did. :)  However, there is one further
> oddity -- though the current (yacht) THUDDD attracted fewer entries than
> any previous one, it's also drawing more voters by a wide margin than the
> previous (exploratory trader) THUDDD.  Still not sure what this is telling
> us...

	I think anybody wana be a welthy traveller and while we all
	know thats hard to suffer as a free trader.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:56:01 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: next THUDDD

Moin Craig Berry,

> What I'm currently leaning toward is a TL 10 system defense
> boat (SDB).
> The other ideas I was throwing around were a 20-ton fighter and a
> 500ish-ton lab ship.

	Hm what about designing a SDB/battle-tender or a fighter/carrier
	combination. A SDB does'nt make much sense without a tender.

> The idea here is to develop a ship that one might encounter
> being used for security by a lowish-tech pocket empire, of which there are
> sure to be many. 

	So they'll set a price limit for a fleet of BT/SDB's lets
	say they want a BT/Ron for 4000 MCr (Tl10) with minimum
	local production (ship yard subvention) of 80%. The contest
	is public and Imperial companies try to design fleets
	to increase export by 800 MCr ! But of course these designs
	have to match ISBA (isba@goldinc.com) Class I equipment
	export restrictions.

	What do others think about designing a fleet with :

	Local production: 80% TL 10 components

	Imported Imperial class I equipment : Turret and barrbet lasers,
	   military controll systems, non meson comuncation systems,
	   sandcasters, sensors. (TL12)

	Imported TL11 equipment: MDF, missiles, bay weapons, spinal
	  mount weapons, stelth, EMM.

	For a complete price of 5000 MCr dividet into :

	3200 MCr local production
	 800 MCr imported technology
	1000 MCr investment for bringing local production partly
		 to TL11 for jump drive and thusterplate production.

	This fleet THUDDD would need 2 ballots :

	- Buyers vote : The PEs military has to decide which company
	  should build the fleet.
	- Senates vote : Imperial senate has a veto as the PE is only
	  ~20-50 parsecs away (do we have a canon M0/TL10 PE ?).

> However, I'd prefer to wait until FFS2 is available
> to tackle small-craft designs,

	BTW: I'll still use FFS as I have some self written gawk
	scripts for calculations. (btw I also dislike thuster plates,
	and USP simplifications)

> and I just can't muster much enthusiasm for the lab ship.

> Comments?  Other suggestions?

	IMHO THUDDD should swith between civilian and military ships.
	(the even and odd the THUDDD ;-) Last time we had the Yacht
	(civilian) next THUDDD should be a military ship and the
	Lab Ship afterwards.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:52:51 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1610

William wrote:

>
>
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:22:49 -0800
> From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
> Subject: [none]
>
>

<snip>

>
>
> Book 8: Robots, also made clear some of the emerging assumptions about
>
> computer power for MT. A TL 12 computer is capable of QUITE a bit of
> processing power. I once sat down and figured out just how much was in
> a
> model 1, 2, and 3... and they all came out with at least low
> autonomous,
> and were capable of understanding spoken word at TL 9+.
>

<snip>

> All in CT, Bk 8.
>
> William F. Hostman
> <Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>
>

Saddly, my nearly complete set of CT books went into storage several
years ago, when I was relocated temporarily. When I got back to them
water had leaked into the storage unit and that, plus 2-3 boxes of
classic sci-fi, were the victims 8^<. The storage company made
settlement and I managed to carefully recover some of them. Robots was
not among the survivors, and I only vaguely remember it.

I have just started to read (rather than skim) Central Supply Catalog. I
see it mentions a companion bot, and some computer design information.
Maybe I'll have enough (sigh! is there ever?) time to finish reading
that and see what kind of equiptment can be designed from that book.
From some of the comments that I've seen on the list though, I'm not
sure...

I'll get to it, just as soon as I finish these 500 ton freighter deck
plans I've been working on for the last 3 weeks...

Mike Peters

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:00:29 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Grandfather Elvis

Douglas E. Berry writes: 

>I am changing my last name.
>
>Can I have that for the Silly era?
>
>Doug Eneri.

   One would think that with a last name like Berry, you'd want to
change your first name to 'Chuck'.

   Fusion rifles shaped like guitars anyone?

   Now Johnny has a whole new reason to be good....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:06:35 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1609

>It appears that we have a consensus on doing the TL-10 System Defense Boat
>(SDB) for the August THUDDD, so that's now the official choice.  Now, does
>a size range of 500-800 tons make sense to everyone, or should it be
>narrower, broader, higher, lower, or some combination of these?

Sounds great. Offhand, I'd say it might be nice to have a little more room
at the low end. Perhaps anywhere from 200-800 tons. Some planets may not
want to put all their eggs in one big basket, so to speak. 400 tons seems
an ideal size for an SDB, at least to me.


Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:22:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

  I think there should be a size limit of some sort - this can be written
as something like "must fit in a jump ferry of x size" where x is whatever
the upper limit is.  

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:18:44 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Tech Level Chart

Just a thought...

A fellow list member mentioned that there was no tech level chart with
examples of what is possible in all the various technological fields at a
given tech level in the T4 rulebook. I remember this being a very useful
reference in the old CT rulebook (It was in Book 1, and in subsequent
versions of the CT rules). Has it been put in any of the new supplements
put out by Imperium Games (I don't have very many of them), and if not, why
not.

For those new to Traveller, it would give a very good idea of relative
tech, and it would be unfortunate if it was left out of whatever revised
edition is currently in the works.


Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:05:52 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

twolf@unix.tfs.net wrote:

> >  5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.
> > 
> > Ditto?
> > 
> Unless you screw up you will usually get promoted.  In most of the 
> militaries now if you don't get promoted you are kicked out.  A 20 
> year career as an officer gets you to the O5 and fast track guys O6 
> in 20-22 years.

I always thought that this was an American thing, because the New 
Zealand Army only has automatic promotion (barring a stuffup) to 
major, with all promotions after that by merit. IIRC this is based on 
the British Army's system, so they're probably similar.

We New Zealanders have always found the US NCO rank system strange 
(most of my army military friends would say stupid), because we don't 
have automatic promotions for enlisted ranks at all.
R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In-Reply-To: <33D96757.1ADC@siscom.net>

> >5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.
>  
>    Assuming that the Third Imperium of MMT is a rapidly expanding power,
> you could expect to make rank pretty easy, since good officers don't
> have to wait for the ranks above them to thin before getting promoted.

Okay, I'll grant you that.

> >6. Enlisted promotion is too rapid in first term.
>  
>    For enlisted types in the U.S. Army, if you don't make E-5 (Sergeant)
> by your 5th year of service, it's because you've done something *really* 
> bad.

I have a friend in the British Army. He's either late in his 'second term' 
or early in his third, and he's only a L/Cpl, and he doesn't consider that 
particularly unusual.

>    Again, an expanding military would make promotions easier to obtain
> for enlisted types as well as officers.

I agree, but I think 1 free promotion/year is excessive.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:25 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

In-Reply-To: <33D94AA9.574F322A@bu.edu>

Steve,

> Gods forbid, but the players will surely create one, a Rogue,
> masquerading as an Agent, posing as a Rogue.  Oy vey!

Love it! :-)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:00:13 -0700
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

>
>It appears that we have a consensus on doing the TL-10 System Defense Boat
>(SDB) for the August THUDDD, so that's now the official choice.  Now, does
>a size range of 500-800 tons make sense to everyone, or should it be
>narrower, broader, higher, lower, or some combination of these?

I'd like to see the upper limit set at a good round 1000 tons; at lower
tech levels, the most mundane things take up incredible amounts of room.
You design too much stuff at TL12+ and you get spoiled -- you forget
what an utter godsend thrust plates and (slightly) more efficient power
plants are...

Additionally, I'd like to see a set of design requirements somewhat more
specific than 'system defence boat.' That covers an extraordinarily
broad array of roles. What does the client want? Are we building it for
the Emperor so he can arm his client states? or are we just putting
together a representative sample of what a typical low-tech pocket
empire might be able to field? Is it to be a purely military craft,
designed to stave off full-blown planetary invasions (read: Missile
Boat)? or will it also be called upon to perform various law-enforcement
duties: chasing smugglers & the like? I don't want to build just a
stereotypical ho-hum budget non-jump-capable warship... I like seeing
how big a gun I can pack into how small a package; and at lower tech
levels, that's a REAL challenge....

One last thing: what design system are we using? and can we mix & match
now that QSDS is un-broken (design a QSDS hull, then drop
FF&S-spreadsheet-designed/converted weapons in it: things like that)?
The last THUDDD I participated in was the scout/survey vessel. I tried
to design it employing SSDS, and worked myself into such a blathering
rage trying to figure out the crew complement that I almost didn't make
it.... Never Again... 

Or are we waiting for FF&S 2?

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:23 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: IG Web Page & mailing list

In-Reply-To: <33D802D0.304D16F5@linkeasy.net>

Peter,

> Just curious bit whatever happened to Dave Bullock's mailing list of
> news

Oddly enough, I received one today.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Automatic Skills

In-Reply-To: <33D947E7.4600005C@bu.edu>

Steve,

> Would someone please confirm my interpretation Automatic Skills to calm
> my irate players; to wit:  Automatic skills are gained once and not on
> each successive term.

You are correct.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In-Reply-To: <v01540a00affd502acba7@[198.70.218.37]>

I *really want* T4 to be Traveller.

IMHO, what we need ASAP is a M0 edition of the Imperial Encyclopedia. 
This would be a vital aid to consistency for both new players/refs *and 
new writers.*
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: CharGen and Injury

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970725174504.006b73f4@athens.net>

Paul,

> New question for y'all folks: How do you handle skills gained in chargen
> in a term in which the character is injured? Does the character earn any
> a skill per year before the injury, or no skills? The T4 book is not clear
> on this point. "Beginnings" assumes no skills, but I've had one person 
> using it ask about it, so I thought I'd throw it out here and see what y'all
> do as a rule of thumb.

The character receives skills for every year up to (and including?) the 
injury.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

In-Reply-To: <33D94F68.482B56AE@bu.edu>

Steve,

> Please, please, please! No Book per Career!!  I hate it when games
> companies do that.  Witness TSR's huge assortment of class-type books
> filled with useless drivel and bad artwork. 

CT had a book for most careers, and that worked pretty well.

An updated Mercenary/Striker would be nice, with TO&E for different 
cultures and TLs (what is standard equipment for an Imperial Marine? 
What is a TL4 army likely to be armed with?) and a mass combat system.

> > "Megacorporations" for the Merchant
> > "Syndicates" for the Rogue
>  
> These should be one book.

That's very cynical of you!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In-Reply-To: <199707260509.AAA30977@unix.tfs.net>

> >  1. Do schools count as career terms for mustering out? IMHO they should 
> > if character graduates.
> > 
> > My thought is that Academy schooling counts to muster out (Military Academy,
> > Naval Academy, Merchant Academy). Schooling while in service counts. Service
> > before enlisting doesn't.

Sounds reasonable.

> >  4. The Commission roll is too easy. It's almost impossible to generate 
> >  an enlisted character!
> > 
> > Comments from others?
> > 
> Commission roll is optional.  If a character doesn't want to go to 
> OCS then he doesn't apply.

But why would anyone *not* want to go? Officers get an extra m/o roll and an 
extra skill per term.

>  
> >  5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.
> > 
> > Ditto?
> > 
> Unless you screw up you will usually get promoted.  In most of the 
> militaries now if you don't get promoted you are kicked out.  A 20 
> year career as an officer gets you to the O5 and fast track guys O6 
> in 20-22 years.

I'd make the roll harder but the DMs better.

> >  7. Because of (5), officers get 1 extra skill per term.
> >  
> > Comments?
>  
> Any promotion (enlisted or officer) should receive the extra skill 
> bonus.

Giving enlisted characters about a million skills in the first term.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Roswell

In-Reply-To: <19970725125014250.AAA388@[192.168.2.7]>

Glenn,

> Does anybody still seriously believe in the UFO story?

A lot of people think the X Files is a documentary...

> Actually, does anybody seriously believe the US government could keep a
> secret this long, especially one this big

That's my main reason for not believing the USAF has a hanger full off 
LGMs.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Tactics Skill for Naval Officers

In-Reply-To: <31F7F293.FF2@lynx.neu.edu>

Wesley,

> I was playing with character generation today, and I noticed that
> tactics doesn't seem to be a skill available to Navy characters.  In the
> rules it says that tactics is for up to 1000 troops or ships.  So  it
> seems that it has replaced the old ship tactics skill.  In PE tactics
> skill gives a bonus on military tasks, so it does seem to be needed. 
> What does the navy do - rely on marine advisors on the bridge to deal
> with tactics?

At least in T4.1, Ship/Fleet Tactics is available for Navy characters.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 08:10:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

Marc,

I noted your comment about being able to sell a complete set of MT.  As a
collector, what would that set cost?

Thanks.

Chuck McKnight
cmcknight@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:48:16 -0700
From: Nicholas Wright <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Sector and subsector names

Steve Daniels wrote:

>Its ben so long since I played Traveller, that I have no idea what the
>names are of many sectors and subsectors are.  I finally found a CT map
>of Known Space which was a help, but it has many gaps.  Anyone know
>where I can get a list of as many sector names as possible?  I've got
>the names of the 8 in FS and know where the Spinward Marches, Old
>Expanses and Ley Sectors are, but that is about it.  I'd also welcome
>any info on known subsector names in prominent sectors (I didn't
>purchase FS yet because of the forthcomin Mileu 0 hardcover.)



CT Supplement 8, Library Data (A-M) (GDW 1981) gives a map of the whole
region surrounding the Imperium, an area 16 sectors across by 8 sectors
down.  I presume that thuis is the map you have.  The Atlas of the
Imperium (GDW 1984) gives the names of 35 sectors in a grid 7 across by
5 down.  The Rebellion Sourcebook (GDW 1988) gives these names with two
extra rows one at the top and one at the bottom.  The first row only has
the right hand three sectors named (the map title covers the left
four).  Starting from the top the names given are:

1.?,  ?,  ?,  ?,  Meshan,  Mendan,  Amdukan
2. Spinward Marches,  Deneb,  Corridor,  Vland,  Lishun,  Antares, 
Empty Quarter
3. Trojan Reach,  Reft Sector,  Gushemege,  Dagudashag,  Core, 
Fornast,  Ley Sector
4. Riftspan Reaches,  Verge,  Ilelish,  Zarushagar,  Massilia,  Delphi, 
Glimmerdrift Reaches
5. Hlakhoi,  Ealiyasiyw,  Reaver's Deep,  Daibei,  Diaspora,  Old
Expanses,  Hinterworlds
6. Staihaia'yo,  Iwahfuah,  Dark Nebula,  Magyar,  Solomani Rim,  Alpha
Crucis,  Spica
7. Aktifao,  Uistilao,  Ustral Quadrant,  Canopus,  Aldebaran, 
Neworld,  Langere

I know that there are more sectors that have been named (the alien
modules generally have further sectors named) but these are the ones to
which I have instant access, e.g. Vanguard Reaches and The Beyond are
the two to the left of Trojan Reach (line 3 above should start VR,  TB, 
TR).

Subsector names are more difficult to track down but it is possible
through the DGP info.  I will try and come back in a few days.


Hope this has been of help


Nick Wright
If Albert was right and mass tends to infinity as c is attained why
isn't it called the speed of heavy?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:13:13 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: T4.1 Characters

Any time you start a new career in real life, don't you learn the bulk of your job skills the first year or so?

<snip>   
> Any promotion (enlisted or officer) should receive the extra skill 
> bonus.

Giving enlisted characters about a million skills in the first term.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:18:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

In a message dated 97-07-27 00:44:25 EDT, you write:

<< Each noble
 should be unique, since if they are carbon cut-outs with arbitrary levels
 of power, then their whole purpose and funtion in the game--to provide a
 varied and complex political background for an interstellar Empire with an
 old-fashioned feudal structure underneath all that tech--is lost. >>

I agree that every character should be unique as well. Not all nobles have
property, and the MO tables will reflect that. In fact, in the Imperium, not
all nobles are rich (or filthy rich) or even hold any reasonable power. The
purpose of the chargen and MO tables is to provide some information by which
a character can be fleshed out by the ref and the player.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:30:51 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Playing in my area

Hi,

	Apologies if this isn't the norm on here...

	I play Traveller with one group, but I'd like to play more as we only play
once every three weeks or so. I live in the Ilford area - that's in London,
UK for those who don't know ;-) - and I can travel a few miles out. I can
GM but I would like to play. Also, can anyone give me details of gaming
clubs in London or near my area? Cheers.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1611
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1612



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Character terms and Promotion
Re: Elvis in Traveller
Genetics in Traveller
Re: FBI in 3I
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Deep Space
Re: Deep Space
Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...
Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Re: Character terms and Promotion
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Re: THUDDD distribution channels
CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: Character terms and Promotion
FS Data rewrite
Re: 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:11:28 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Character terms and Promotion

At least in the US Navy (I believe this is true in the other US 
services as well), there are no automatic promotions.  Promotion 
rates are about:

	95% from O1 to O2 
	90% from O2 to O3 
	70% from O3 to O4.

These figures are approximate.  I'll look up the actual numbers
if anyone is interested.

There are also no automatic enlisted promotions.  Promotion 
rates are about 95% from E1 to E2 to E3 and it drops off 
from there.

Since Congress won't allow us to cut bases and infrastructure, 
we are cutting operating forces (people and ships) instead.  
This has a negative effect on all aspects of operations 
and we will be a hollow force in about ten years, maybe 
sooner.

A major effect of the drawdown is the attenuation of 
enlisted promotions to the higher paygrades.  Selection 
rate to Chief Petty Officer is extremely low.  My ship 
had one (only one out of about thirty), E6 make it to 
E7 this year, and only three last year.  And we have some
great people.

At the moment, retention of senior Lieutenants is less 
than 20% (some say less than 10%) across the Naval 
Line (the combat arms - Surface, Sub, and Aviation).  
I don't know about Special Warfare or other units.  I 
understand that The Air Force is having similar problems 
with pilot retention. 

This information may be useful in modelling the effects 
of a contraction in the military.  Conversely, promotion 
rates will expand if the kiltary expands (war or dynamic 
exploration with a heavy militray component cause this).

Survival probablities will genarally fall with increasing
promotion and decoration probabilities.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:29:12 -0700
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Elvis in Traveller

> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:51:32 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Elvis in Traveller
> 
>> At 02:35 PM 7/23/97 -0700, Kenji wrote:
>>
>>Anyone else out there ever thought about a SubTraveler setting?
>>
>>Ladies and Gentlemen, all the way from
>>rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated;
>>the NARN BAT SQUAD!!!!! <applause>
>>
>><wheeet!>  tromptromptrompTrompTrompTROMPTROMP.
>>
>>*WHAM!*  *WHAM!*  *WHAM!*  *WHAM!*  *WHAM!*
>>
>>TROMPTROMPTrompTromptromptromp.......

ROFLMAO!!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:30:12 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Genetics in Traveller

Hi, me again, :)

   I was looking up something, and came across this tidbit.

  Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora, GDW, 1992, for MT, pp. 13-14.

     "CARL'S WORLD"

     "First claimed and settled during the Terran expansion
      by geologist-prospector-entrepreneur Carl Sickles ..."


     "He began planning to gradually convert the world to a
      planet sized amusement park, continent by continent,
      as each was exhausted of its mineral wealth.  Today,
      [LG c.1124], 3300 years later, mining still continues,
      but several large theme areas have been created,
      including a small continent devoted entirely to
      genetically engineered dinosaurs from Terra's Mesozoic
      era."

  Given that I see either possible interpretation of this to
mean that it could have been done c.-2200 (RoM), or in the
period of the Third Imperium, I don't want to get into that
whole thing again.

  But I am curious, what is the Traveller Tech Level needed to make this
"Jurassic Park" (the Jurassic is the early Mesozoic)?

  Just something to chew on. :)

  (BTW, in the same source, different page, Orcas (on Sufren) are also
mentioned in the genetic engineering uplift along with the dolphins,
probably part of the 20+ species mentioned in Solomani & Aslan.  Someone
may have mentioned that before.)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 18:22 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970725205656.2a67259a@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> In my games, the Navy does the actual dirty work of enforcing Imperial Law,
> with the scout security Branch providing an investigative force.  External
> intel is the province of Naval Intellegence working with the Scouts.
>  
> The MoJ runs the courts, from criminal to commercial.

In my game, there are several organisations, whose jurisdictions overlap 
somewhat.

At the top are the Nobles. They are the only people authorised to try other 
Nobles, other criminals may appeal to them in certain cases, and all other 
organisations report to them (specifically, to the Sector Duke). All Imperial 
Judges are Nobles.

The Ministry of Justice deals with crimes committed in space, on Imperial 
property, or those involving more than one world. 

Local planetary law-enforcement agencies deal with crimes committed on their 
world.

The Imperial Navy deals with smuggling and piracy. Once caught, the 
perpetrators are handed over to the MoJ.

The IISS Security Branch deals with non-military intelligence gathering 
(internal and external).

The Office of Naval Intelligence (aka Imperial Naval Intelligence) deals with 
military intelligence gathering (internal and external).

examples:

1. Crime committed on world A: dealt with by local authorities.

2. Crime committed at Starport on world A: investigated by MoJ, judged by an 
Imperial Judge (normally a Knight or Baron), if found guilty may appeal to 
planetary noble.

3. Piracy in system A: caught by Navy, then handed over to MoJ (see above).
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:24:00 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

At 11:05 PM 7/27/97 +1100, R. Boleyn wrote:

>I always thought that this was an American thing, because the New 
>Zealand Army only has automatic promotion (barring a stuffup) to 
>major, with all promotions after that by merit. IIRC this is based on 
>the British Army's system, so they're probably similar.
>
>We New Zealanders have always found the US NCO rank system strange 
>(most of my army military friends would say stupid), because we don't 
>have automatic promotions for enlisted ranks at all.

Enlisted promotions in the US Army are fairly automatic through the first
three grades (Private, Private-2, Private First Class).  Promotion to E-4
is decided on by your commanding officer, and even then he can decide
wether to make you a Specialist 4th Class (SP4, or a sort of super=private)
or a Corporal (an actual NCO, with the perogatives and duties thereof.) To
make Sergeant (E-5) or higher, you have to stand Promotion Boards, and have
an opening for that rank in your military specialty.

Typically, you can make Sergeant in about 5 years, Staff Sergeant (E-6) in
7-8, Sergeant First Class in about 12, Master (or First) Sergeant in about
18, and Sergeant Major after 20 years of service.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:11:21 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

At 20:31 25/07/97 -0700, David Smart wrote:
>The really great thing about deep space stations is that they're so
>blasted
>difficult to find if you don't have exact coordinates. They're great for

	Then that could make a nice plot line for an adventure!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:11:22 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

At 21:08 25/07/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>It's also possible that by very careful observation after jumping into
>an "empty" hex you could find a comet or even a "small" moon made of
>ice. Refine the fuel on the spot.

	Interesting. How fast do comets travel, and how long would it take a 1g or
2g ship to match velocities? Would you have to take hydrogen in from the
comet's tail or blast chunks off the comet, pick them up, and refine them
that way?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:40:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...

Marc wrote:
>> - How about giving bonus to promotion roll, if it failed last term? 50 year
>old lieutenants are silly.
>
>I think they are too. In the 1880's the US Army had quite a few (no wars, no
>promotion, etc). Silly yes. Possible yes. If that happens to you, what
>explanation do you create for the character: persecution, discrimination?
>incompetence? lack of ambition?

Why not state that the Imperial services maintian and up or out policy, and
each term in an "O" rank without promotion results in a -1 to the
re-enlistment roll (ie a penalty).

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:00:13 -0700
> From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
> 
> >It appears that we have a consensus on doing the TL-10 System Defense Boat
> >(SDB) for the August THUDDD, so that's now the official choice.  Now, does
> >a size range of 500-800 tons make sense to everyone, or should it be
> >narrower, broader, higher, lower, or some combination of these?
> 
> I'd like to see the upper limit set at a good round 1000 tons; at lower
> tech levels, the most mundane things take up incredible amounts of room.
> You design too much stuff at TL12+ and you get spoiled -- you forget
> what an utter godsend thrust plates and (slightly) more efficient power
> plants are...

Many people are suggesting that we use a fixed budget, a la Trillion
Credit Squadron, and let people build N of whatever design they want with
that money.  The problem is that I want to design one ship per THUDDD, and
the TCS model calls for an integrated fleet -- it's not a choice between
200 and 1000 ton vessels, but rather possibly some of each, and comparing
just these two would be an apples-and-oranges proposition.

I do agree that 500-1000 tons makes more sense than 500-800.

> Additionally, I'd like to see a set of design requirements somewhat more
> specific than 'system defence boat.' That covers an extraordinarily
> broad array of roles. What does the client want? Are we building it for
> the Emperor so he can arm his client states? or are we just putting
> together a representative sample of what a typical low-tech pocket
> empire might be able to field? Is it to be a purely military craft,
> designed to stave off full-blown planetary invasions (read: Missile
> Boat)? or will it also be called upon to perform various law-enforcement
> duties: chasing smugglers & the like? I don't want to build just a
> stereotypical ho-hum budget non-jump-capable warship... I like seeing
> how big a gun I can pack into how small a package; and at lower tech
> levels, that's a REAL challenge....

It sure is!  Obviously, the requirements will be more detailed when the
RFP goes out in early August.  Though it breaks the THUDDD/ISBA model a
little bit, what I hoped to do was design ships indigenous to low-tech
PEs, rather than Sylean craft.  I may change the 'frame story'
accordingly...hmmmmm...

What I'm picturing here is a purely military craft, designed to hold off
the forces of that mad dog Cleon and his pack of Quislings. :)  Or the PE
next door, for that matter.  The two optimizing points will be cost and
military capability; however, if you can demonstrate its usefulness in
peacetime (catching smugglers and whatnot), all the better.

> One last thing: what design system are we using? and can we mix & match
> now that QSDS is un-broken (design a QSDS hull, then drop
> FF&S-spreadsheet-designed/converted weapons in it: things like that)?
> The last THUDDD I participated in was the scout/survey vessel. I tried
> to design it employing SSDS, and worked myself into such a blathering
> rage trying to figure out the crew complement that I almost didn't make
> it.... Never Again... 

See the THUDDD rules at http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html .
Basically, the answer is yes, you can drop FFS components into QSDS
designs.

> Or are we waiting for FF&S 2?

Like a three-year-old waiting for a candy bar. :)  But in terms of THUDDD,
no, we're using FFS 1 until 2 comes along and invalidates everything.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 12:24:21 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Character terms and Promotion

At 01:11 PM 7/27/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Since Congress won't allow us to cut bases and infrastructure, 
>we are cutting operating forces (people and ships) instead.  
>This has a negative effect on all aspects of operations 
>and we will be a hollow force in about ten years, maybe 
>sooner.

A bit off topic, but huh?  The San Francisco area has lost at least five
Navy facilities in the last 5 years.  (Treasure Island, NAS Alameda, NAS
Moffit Field, Hunter Point Naval Shipyard, and the Concord Naval Weapons
Station.)

Considering we've lost about 10,000 jobs over this, I have to say that
Congress is indeed closing Naval bases.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:35:03 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:
> 
>   But I am curious, what is the Traveller Tech Level needed to make this
> "Jurassic Park" (the Jurassic is the early Mesozoic)?
> 
>   Just something to chew on. :)
> 
>   (BTW, in the same source, different page, Orcas (on Sufren) are also
> mentioned in the genetic engineering uplift along with the dolphins,
> probably part of the 20+ species mentioned in Solomani & Aslan.  > > Someone may have mentioned that before.)

Medical and genetics technologies are IMHO, an underveloped area in
Traveller. The MT Referees Companion lists the following tech level 
milestones for medical technology:

0	Mystical medecine
1	Diagnosis of Disease
2	Understanding of crude anatomy
	Internal anatomy
3	Crude surgery
4	Early vaccination
	Antiseptics
5	Mass vaccination	
	X-ray diagnosis
6	Understand viruses	
	Crude prosthetics
7	Organ transplants
	Medical slow drugs
8	Artificial organs
	Slow drugs
9	Limb regeneration
	Cryongenic suspension
10	Antiviral vaccinations
	Growth quickening
11	Nerve refusion
	Artificial eyes
12	Broad antitoxins
	Enhanced prosthetics
13	Cloned body parts
	Reanimation
14	Genetic engineering
	Memory erasure
15	Anagathics
	Pseudobio prosthetics
16	Brain transplants
	Crude memory transfer
17	Selective memory erase
	Intelligent antibodies
18	Partial memory transfer (dupe)
	Non-cryo suspend
19	Adv bioengineering
20	Total memory transfer
21	Total rejuvenation

At TL 14, the RC states that "genetic enngineering techniques culminate 
in the creation of altered, "improved" life forms, including sentients.

At TL 19, the RC states that "Advanced bioengineering is developed, 
allowing living organisms to be directly manipulated into variant life 
forms."

This would definitively place the technology used on Carl's World
between 14 and 19, probably at the lower end.  Please note that the
Jonkereen also fall into this category.

IMO, the geneering techniques required to re-engineer sauropods and 
such from mosquito spit is probably about 14.  this is consistent with 
the premise that the RoM enjoyed highly advanced biomedical technology,
if the project occured then

- -Dan Lane.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:44:11 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: THUDDD distribution channels

> From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
> A ftp server sharing
>  a directory tree with a http server, would make it posible
>  to upload stuff in a incoming directory, send a mail to the
>  THUDDD master who arange it in the pages !

Oh, I don't dispute that. I quite agree that a shared http/ftp server 
is a better idea. 

As an aside, technically, there's nothing stopping someone from making 
a email-ftp upload service available. In fact, I suppose someone's 
already got one. Though, most likely only to their own site.
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:38:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: CT/MT Re-releases

> Agreed. Here's where I beg MM to do a reprint editions of MT (with the
> erratta applied) in two volumes (PM/IE/COACC, RM/RC/RebSB/HT)...
> <grovelling on floor> Please???</grovelling>
> 
>  >>
>I love Traveller. But it cannot continue except through increased sales to an
>ever widening group of people. And through distribution and retail store
>sales, I would clearly wager that we woulnd't get enough pre-orders to
>warrant the printing costs. No matter how much anyone says anything, we will
>never go back to CT, MT, TNE.

  Wouldn't a small run be much more economical on CD-ROM, whether it
was intended for regular retail or strictly pre-order/mail-order only?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 21:46 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604

In-Reply-To: <33D96B8F.C4762474@Comten.com>

Michael,

> Let's face it looking at what most of us are using now, I don't buy the
> limits on ship board computers for a second. By the 3I I'd expect the
> computers to be able to handle most of the functions on their own.

Totally agree. The only plausible explanation is that people don't 
*trust* computers, or that people are cheaper.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 21:46 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In-Reply-To: <memo.836745@cix.compulink.co.uk>

> > >6. Enlisted promotion is too rapid in first term.
> >  
> >    For enlisted types in the U.S. Army, if you don't make E-5 (Sergeant)
> > by your 5th year of service, it's because you've done something *really* 
> > bad.
>  
> I have a friend in the British Army. He's either late in his 'second term' 
> or early in his third, and he's only a L/Cpl, and he doesn't consider that 
> particularly unusual.

Okay, I've got a little book here, "The British Army - A Pocket Guide", which 
has a "sample career" in the back (which is almost certainly a little 
generous). Let's compare...

Year  BA     Traveller (Marines)
1     Pvt    Marine
2            Pvt
3            L/Cpl
4     L/Cpl  Cpl
5     Cpl    Sgt
6-8
9     Sgt    GSgt
10-12
13    CSgt   Sgt1C
14-15
16    CSM
17           MSgt
18-20
21           SgtMaj
22    RSM

Interestingly, it seems to work out the same in the end. Traveller adds a new 
grade at the start, plus another flavour of sergeant, which helps to explain 
all the extra promotions, but I still don't like the huge leap at the start. 
How about moving one of those to the 2nd term?

1  Marine
2  Pvt
3  
4  L/Cpl
5  Cpl
6
7  Sgt
8
9+ as above
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:06:19 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Character terms and Promotion

> A bit off topic, but huh?  The San Francisco area has lost at least > five Navy facilities in the last 5 years.  (Treasure Island, NAS > Alameda,> NAS Moffit Field, Hunter Point Naval Shipyard, and the > Concord Naval Weapons Station.)
> 
> Considering we've lost about 10,000 jobs over this, I have to say that
> Congress is indeed closing Naval bases.

Hi Doug,

I acknowledge that California in particular has been deeply 
affected by the previous round of cuts, but I am speaking 
with regards to the next round of cuts to be implemented over
the next several years due to the findings of the QDR.
Congress has refused to cut any more bases due to the 
perceived impact on constituent economies.  So the next 
round of cuts are coming directly out of force structure, 
meaning people and equipment procurement.  In case you 
didn't know, the current US military is in no way capable
of fighting Desert Storm again.  The force structure and 
experience has been largely eroded and the available
forces are quite a bit smaller than they were in 1990-1991. 

On a positive note, there is a lot of high quality
planning for this smaller future force structure. 
Good systems are under procurement and in planning. 
The military of 2015 will be an interesting one 
much more like that of 2300 AD than today's.  

The current situation isn't nearly as bad as the 
post-Vietnam Navy, but it's getting there.  The general high 
public opinion for the military has put it constantly under 
the spotlight, so that any problems become a public forum 
for discussion about social change in the US. The military 
is a hotbed of social engineering and I've seen at least
one career (the best commanding Officer I've ever seen) 
destroyed by a false accusation of private misconduct by 
a civilian. 

There is a serious danger of losing the ability to fight
to administration in support of superfluous social
programs in the military.  For example, I spend most of 
my time doing admin instead of real engineering or tactical 
training. I guess this is the price of peace.  In any case, 
to meet all of the legal requirements imposed by various 
general orders and instructions, a panel working on the 
2015 Navy has found that we would have to work 82 hour 
long days, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.  One might 
think that this is self imposed, but the structure 
mandating these requirements is not capable of removing 
the requirements once they are enacted. The bureaucracy
is too inefficient.

One of my superiors sees about a 150 combatant fleet by 2015, 
this compared to the present fleet of about 350. In reality
this translates to constant deployment without time for major 
overhaul and training.  It may be possible to do this, but
not with the current administrative requirements.

So why am I staying in?  Well, for now it's because I simply
love driving ships and leading men.  The combat training can 
be fun, but because of the massive attrition it seems like
we are losing people faster than we can train them.  It's
frustrating and I fear sometimes that I won't be able to
accomplish the job when called, meaning victory in COMBAT.

Take care and keep writing of guardian of the canon!

- -"LT Dan" Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:13:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: FS Data rewrite

How's the FS data re-write going?

Haven't heard anything from anyone on the list for a while and I was
wondering if you'd all given up... ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:53:06 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: 

Andrew Boulton wrote

In-Reply-To: <199707260509.AAA30977@unix.tfs.net>


[snip]

> >  > 4. The Commission roll is too easy. It's almost impossible to generate an enlisted character!

> > > Comments from others?

> > Commission roll is optional.  If a character doesn't want to go to 
> > OCS then he doesn't apply.

> But why would anyone *not* want to go? Officers get an extra m/o roll > and an extra skill per term.

What if your charecter conception is that the charecter was an enlisted
person and not an officer ? I had this same problem with MT as well.  I
generated a charecter who was a naval officer and determined that both
his parents had also been in the navy.  Slightly later I had a bit of
extra time and decided to roll up both of his mothers (This charecter
was the genetic product of two women via artificial means.)  I started
them both out as E1's.  Both charecters made their way up through the
enlisted ranks, attended OCS and achieved promotion all the way to O10,
Grand Admiral. I did run these charecters through a large number of
terms (because I had deceided that the parents of my 34 year old
charecter had just retired) but did not mess with the results in any
way.  My initial charecter conception, that of a Naval academy officer
son of proud enlisted parents had to change to that of the son of two
mustang Grand Admirals.
  
> > >  5. The Promotion roll is also too easy.

> > > Ditto?

> > Unless you screw up you will usually get promoted.  In most of the 
> > militaries now if you don't get promoted you are kicked out.  A 20 
> > year career as an officer gets you to the O5 and fast track guys O6 
> > in 20-22 years.

> I'd make the roll harder but the DMs better.

Easy promotion has always been a feature of the MT (and CT advanced)
charecter generation system.  Depending on branch and assignment Naval
charecters tend to have a promotion chance of better than 50% (usually a
7+) per year (not counting training).  Since each officer may only
receive 1 promotion per 4 year term what this means is that a naval
officer has less than 1 chance in 16 (0.5^4) of not being promoted each
term.  I agree that the roles are a little easy but this is not a _new_
feature.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1612
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, July 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1613



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sector and subsector names
Re: PCs and nobles
FF&S?
SDB THUDDD budget limits?
Casual Encounter: Grand Admiral Tarlineal dehah Julor
Re: T4.1 Characters
Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: IG Web Page & mailing list
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Casual Encounter Grand Admiral Dr Khakuuki Esarkhankur
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Cannon?!? (was Re: Planning for Traveller Design)
Re: Commission rolls too easy?
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Noble Lands

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:01:52 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector and subsector names

Nicholas Wright wrote:

[snip]

Thanks.  Much obliged.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:23:25 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <33D94F68.482B56AE@bu.edu>
>
> Steve,
>
> > Please, please, please! No Book per Career!!  I hate it when games
> > companies do that.  Witness TSR's huge assortment of class-type
> books
> > filled with useless drivel and bad artwork.
>
> CT had a book for most careers, and that worked pretty well.

Yes it did.  As I pointed out at the end of my post, I'd support this if
the books were kept small and inexpensive, as they were in CT.  What I
fear though is the US$22 perfect-bound, gloosy-covered book that is
filled with lots of useless drivel because the financial types want to
keep the price-point up.  Keep the books small and efficient and in the
US$10 range and I'll but 'em.

>
>
> An updated Mercenary/Striker would be nice, with TO&E for different
> cultures and TLs (what is standard equipment for an Imperial Marine?
> What is a TL4 army likely to be armed with?) and a mass combat system.

Agreed.  (Although I don't know what TO&E is).  BTW, Central Supply
Catalogue mentions some about Imperial military equipment in the
description of certain goods.

> > > "Megacorporations" for the Merchant
> > > "Syndicates" for the Rogue
> >
> > These should be one book.
>
> That's very cynical of you!

But inaccurate? Perhaps not.  ;-)   A hostile takeover is paper piracy.
Both deal with running large financial organizations.  Hell, I'd throw
the Nobles in with them since Nobles are basically 'legal' mafioso.
Also, given the different law levels of member worlds of the Imperium,
what is a legal commodity on one planet may be contraband on another.
Since the Imperium rules only the space between the stars, what do they
care if Corporation Z manufactures and markets a 'mildly' addictive
narcotic derivative on planet Alpha that would be illegal on Sylea?

Finally, as a matter of logistics, wouldn't you want all the game
machanics of running _any_ financial enterprise in one book?  Its all
just "business" after all.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:41:24 -0700
From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
Subject: FF&S?

Forgive my ignorance, I stopped playing Traveller just after MegaTraveller
came out and I have just rejoined the ranks with T4. 

What exactly is FF&S? Is it another system that is compatible with T4, or
an expansion for T4? Is it still available? What exactly does it cover?

Eric J
Alric@SpryNet.Com
Fuzion Page: http://members.aol.com/rfintnl/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:57:59 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: SDB THUDDD budget limits?

	How about simply putting a bang per buck voting category in there?
Just divide the amount of damage it can do per Mcr or something like
that...  that ought to favour either budget-conscious attrition-unit
designs or horrendous 1000td multiple spinal PAW monstrosities :).

	But basically, success of these designs (i.e. them actually being
bought) would probably largely depend on their bang/buck ratio.  Poorer
systems would buy cheaper units, wealthier systems would buy bigger, more
lethal, more expensive units.  Given the wide disparities in system wealth
that would exist, an arbitrary limit on cost doesn't make much sense.

	If we just put bang/buck in as a voting category, this will
motivate the designers to make effective SDB's, without fettering their
creativity.  Therefore, we'll get a wider range of designs, both cheap ones
and really scary big ones.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:55:31 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Casual Encounter: Grand Admiral Tarlineal dehah Julor

Baroness Grand Admiral (Engineering) Tarlineal dehah Julor Imperial
Navy, Retired - a charecter for Milieu 1100

UPP 59CEFC (her wife is Soc 15 so her courtesy Soc is F)

Engineer-4, Philosophy[Darmine Religion]-3, Mechanic-2, Ship Tactics-2,
Vacc Suit-2, Carousing-2, Admin-1, Bribery-1, Computer-1, Electronics-1,
Gravitics-1, Handgun-1, Instruction-1, JackofallTrades-1,
Interrogation-1, Leader-1, Liason-1, Neural Weapons-1, Persuasion-1,
Recruiting-1, Streetwise-1, Zero-G-Environment-1, Forgery-0. [I use a
rule that charecters who attend special duty training schools and fail
to make the roll to aquire the skill at level 1 receive it at level 0]

[She is a MT charecter, if you want to use her for T4.1 you will
probably need to beef up her skills slightly.]

Age 56  (as of 1084) Human, pure Darmine minor race

10.5 terms, 4 combat commands, 11 combat service ribbons, SEH, MCG,
MCUFx4, PHx3 Morale=20 (for Striker)
Special Duties - Engineer School, OCS, Naval Attache, Intelligence
School.

Travellers  Cr 69,000

Using TNE's method of determining the personality of an NPC by drawing
cards from a standard deck (TNE pg60) (a good feature & one I would like
to see in T4.1) her personality is

Jack of Hearts - Wise & 5 of Clubs -  moderately violent

Tarlineal is a short woman in her mid 50's who has the distinctive
naturally green hair commonly found in members of the Darmine human
minor race.  She is famous and is very likely to be recognized by the
players.  Tarlineal is a very serene person and is not at all snobish
about her social or military rank, however she does not suffer fools
gladly.  She is currently travelling for pleasure and could be found
most anywhere in the Spinward Marches or Deneb Sectors heading towards
the Imperial core.

Tarlineal is one of the few people in Imperial history to have received
a Starburst for Extreme Heroism while serving as a Grand Admiral.  Late
in the Fourth Frontier War her Depot/Deneb based support unit was near
the front lines at Lysen/Spinward Marches 1307. The Lysen system was
very lightly defended at the time as most of the fleet assets normally
deployed there were attacking the Zhodani Naval base at Cipango/Spinward
Marches 0705. While she was in the staff briefing area of the Vaughan, a
badly dammaged Plankwell class Dreadnought which had been seperated from
its BatRon, arranging repairs with its commander, a line branch Grand
Admiral, Zhodhani Teleport Commandos invaded the ship.  They achieved
almost complete tactical surprise and it was later discovered that due
to the dammage to the Vaughan their ship had been able to approach far
too closely. 

They quickly killed the line Grand Admiral.  Tarlineal opened up a live
secondary plasma feed line and used it like a PGMP to kill much of the
squad.  She then took command of the ship and lead the ships crew in
repelling the borders before they could blow up the already dammaged
ship.  While badly injured from this combat she lead the repair crew
which managed to bring the Vaughan's spinal mount on line in only half
an hour and drove the Zhodani BatRon, which outmassed her ships by over
2 to 1 and was almost undammaged, from the system.

Her actions unquestionably saved the ship from destrucion and the
strategic system from Zhodani capture.  She received a medical
discharge, a SEH, and a Baroncy for her actions.

[Canon Purists please note that this particular battle is not canonical
but nor is it contradicted by anything canonical that I have seen.]

Tarlineal is usually accompanied by her wife Dutchess Grand Admiral Dr
Khakuuki Esarkhankur Imperial Navy (Medical) retired.  Tarlineal has 3
children whom she loves but rarely sees.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:19:30 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

At 09:46 PM 7/27/97 BST-1, you wrote:

>Interestingly, it seems to work out the same in the end. Traveller adds a
new 
>grade at the start, plus another flavour of sergeant, which helps to explain 
>all the extra promotions, but I still don't like the huge leap at the start. 
>How about moving one of those to the 2nd term?

In most miltary organizations, those first three grades are essintialy the
same rank with higher pay.

The only difference between being a Private (E-1) and Private First Class
(E-3) was that my pay was higher.  I was still addressed as Private Berry,
I had no authority, and still did peon work.  Those early promotions are
designed to reward competance, and to encourage soldiers to think about
staying in.

The happiest day of my life was the day I made Corporal and found myself in
charge of a motor pool detail, rather than working on one...

Some interior Planetary Defence Forces will have 50 year old Lieutenants;
look at the USMC prior to WWII, where most Marines were in their late
twenties before they made Sergeant.  Where there is no room for
advancement, there will be no promotions.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:00:25 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Alternate Marine Ranks

Since I meddle constantly... these are a suggestion to get away from the US
based ranks for the Imperial Marine Force.  

E-1  Recruit (RCT)
E-2  Marine  (MRN)
E-3  Monitor  (MTR)
E-4  Corporal (CPL)
E-5  Sergeant (SGT)
E-6  Gunnery Sergeant (G/SGT)
E-7  Master Sergeant  (M/SGT)
E-8  Ship's Sergeant  (S/SGT)
     Master Gunner   (M/G)
E-9  Fleet Sergeant  (F/SGT)
     Command Fleet Sergeant (CF/SGT)
     Master Fleet Sergeant  (MF/SGT)


O-1  Force Ensign  (FENS)
O-2  Force Lieutenant (FLT)
O-3  Sr. Force Lieutenant (SFLT)
O-4  Major  (MAJ)
O-5  Force Commander (FCDR)
O-6  Colonel  (COL)
O-7  Brigade Leader (BL) 
O-8  Lt. General (L/GEN)
O-9  General  (GEN)
0-10 Fleet General (F/GEN)

The ranks are designed to mesh more effectively with the Navy.. note that
officer grades 1-3&5 are identical to the Navy grades, with the addition of
the word "force" to designate the holder as a Marine.

The high end NCO ranks require some expalnation.. A Ship's Sergeant is the
senior NCO of eith a Marine Company or any detachment smaller than a
Battalion.  A Master Gunner is a Marine serving in a technical position
without command authority.

Fleet Sergeants are diferent from Command Fleet Sergeants in that the
CF/SGT is the senior NCO of a Battalion or larger unit.. There is an
unoffcial rank of Regimental Fleet Sergeant for the CF/SGT of a Regiment.
Master Fleet Sergeant is the rank given to senior NCOs of entire fleets or
subsectors.  There is one Sector Master Fleet Sergeant per sector, and the
Force Master Fleet Sergeant has his office on Sylea. 


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:10:38 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: IG Web Page & mailing list

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <33D802D0.304D16F5@linkeasy.net>
> 
> Peter,
> 
> > Just curious bit whatever happened to Dave Bullock's mailing list of
> > news
> 
> Oddly enough, I received one today.

:-)  Ya, there hadn't been one since June 17th, and then, the moment
after I send this message, I received the mailing list thing in my
e-mail box as well....

- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:47:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

In a message dated 97-07-27 14:55:15 EDT, Leroy wrote:

<< 
   But I am curious, what is the Traveller Tech Level needed to make this
 "Jurassic Park" (the Jurassic is the early Mesozoic)? >>


It's not so much a question of the tech level involved as it is the lack of
information available.  Jurassic Park suggested that the blood of dinosaurs
could be found in insects embedded in amber.  The DNA that, to date, has
contained only a few kb(kilobase pairs) and these pairs are only fragmentary
at best.  Without a framework within which to put this information, the DNA
is, essentially, useless.  The means of extracting DNA will improve but the
problem remains the same DNA decays at a fairly constant rate without an
"intact" sample we are left to our imaginations as the only recourse.
 Unless, of course, those rumours of "Nessie" are, in fact, true.

Scott Quigg "XatoKuom@aol.com" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:42:36 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Casual Encounter Grand Admiral Dr Khakuuki Esarkhankur

Dutchess Grand Admiral Dr Khakuuki Esarkhankur Imperial Navy (Medical
branch) Retired, Maruqis of Depot/Deneb, Knight OD. [note that I use the
rules from TD #12 pg 33 for determining type of nobility - Khakuuki is
an Honors Duke (without a fief) but is a High Marquis (with a fief)]
a charecter for Milieu 1100

UPP 599DDF

Medical-5, Bribery-2, Admin-2, Electronics-2, Gambling-2, Gunnery-2,
Battle Dress-1, Biology-1, Computer-1, Forward Observer-1,
Interrogation-1, JackofallTrades-1, Leader-1, Linguistics-1,
Recruiting-1, Ship Tactics-1, Streetwise-1, Vacc Suit-1, Engineering-0,
Fleet Tactics-0, Gravitics-0, Mechanical-0, Grav Vehicle-0 [I use a
rule that charecters who attend special duty training schools and fail
to make the roll to aquire the skill at level 1 receive it at level 0]

[She is a MT charecter, if you want to use her for T4.1 you will
probably need to beef up her skills slightly.]

Travellers, Cr 100,000, 1 High Passage, fief of Depot/Deneb

Age 59 Human, mixed Vilani [+2 to aging saves]

11.25 terms, 0 Combat Commands, 11 Combat Service Ribbons, MCUFx3, PH,
Morale=11 [for Striker]
Special Duties - Engineering School, Gunnery School, OCS, Naval Attache,
Intelligence School, Command College, Recruiting

Using TNE's method of determining the personality of an NPC by drawing
cards from a standard deck (TNE pg60) (a good feature & one I would like
to see in T4.1) her personality is

Queen of Clubs - Stubborn, Queen of Hearts - Loving (of Tarlineal)

Dr Esarkhankur is quite obviously of Vilani extraction, with black hair
and eyes and brown skin.  She is somewhat famous and is somewhat likely
to be recognized by nobles, medical people, or formal Imperial Navy
personnel.  She has a tendency to be somewhat cranky, but is a fine
doctor. [Think of Dr McCoy on ST:TOS] She is currently travelling for
pleasure and could be found most anywhere in the Spinward Marches or
Deneb Sectors heading towards Depot/Deneb and (ultimately) the Imperial
core.  Dr Khakuuki entered the Imperial Navy over 40 years ago as an
ordinary medical corpman.  She rose through the ranks to Master Chief
Petty Officer, attended OCS, and rose through the ranks to become a
Grand Admiral.  Along the way she achieved a Medical doctorate.

Khakuuki is usually accompanied by her wife Baroness Grand Admiral 
Tarlineal dehah Julor, Imperial Navy (Engineering), Retired whom she is
deeply in love with.  Khakuuki haschildren whom she loves but rarely
sees.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 23:45:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:14:31, CardSharks@aol.com wrote...

> But specifically, I could see...
>
> MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
>
> Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
>
> What else?

    Howabout something for those of us who are world building fanatics?
Something al la World Builders Handbook, only in greater detail and with
sections allowing/showing how to detail the planetary history would be nice.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:45:11 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

Andrew Boulton writes: 

>I *really want* T4 to be Traveller.

   What I really want is for Phoebe Cates to leave her no talent husband
and run off with me to Fiji, but that ain't going to happen.

   I know what you mean though.  You had hoped that Marc Miller's
Traveller would be something that would be compatible with the version
of Traveller you now own.  What you are finding out though is that MMT
*replaces* all previous versions of Traveller instead.  The intent is to
assimilate rather than to supplement.

   I hate to tell everyone I told you so, but...

>IMHO, what we need ASAP is a M0 edition of the Imperial Encyclopedia. 
>This would be a vital aid to consistency for both new players/refs *and 
>new writers.*

   Any new version of the Imperial Encyclopedia would likely reflect
reality as Marc Miller's Traveller sees it, not the reality presented in
the original work.

   Let's also get something straight.  I am not "T4" bashing.  I'm sure
that whatever Marc Miller comes up with in the way of a game is going to
be wonderful.  Certainly if I were justing starting out in gaming this
would be an excellent time to jump on board the MMT bandwagon.  The next
few supplements appear to show some real potential.

   But what is being developed is not GDW's Traveller.  It is something
new (I'm sure Leroy would say 'new and improved').  So long as everyone
keeps that in mind, there will be a lot less verbal violence around
here.

Regards,

Harold
(The Serene Traveller Player)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:58:17 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:35:03 -0400
Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net> writes:
>
>Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:
>> 
>>   But I am curious, what is the Traveller Tech Level needed to make this
>> "Jurassic Park" (the Jurassic is the early Mesozoic)?
>> 
>>   Just something to chew on. :)
>> 
>>   (BTW, in the same source, different page, Orcas (on Sufren) are also
>> mentioned in the genetic engineering uplift along with the dolphins,
>> probably part of the 20+ species mentioned in Solomani & Aslan.
>> Someone may have mentioned that before.)
>
>Medical and genetics technologies are IMHO, an underveloped area in
>Traveller. The MT Referees Companion lists the following tech level 
>milestones for medical technology:
>
[snippish biggish]
>10      Antiviral vaccinations
>        Growth quickening
>11      Nerve refusion
>        Artificial eyes
>12      Broad antitoxins
>        Enhanced prosthetics
>13      Cloned body parts
>        Reanimation
>14      Genetic engineering
>        Memory erasure
>15      Anagathics
>        Pseudobio prosthetics
>16      Brain transplants
>        Crude memory transfer
>17      Selective memory erase
>        Intelligent antibodies
>18      Partial memory transfer (dupe)
>        Non-cryo suspend
>19      Adv bioengineering
>20      Total memory transfer
>21      Total rejuvenation
>
>At TL 14, the RC states that "genetic enngineering techniques culminate 
>in the creation of altered, "improved" life forms, including sentients.
>
>At TL 19, the RC states that "Advanced bioengineering is developed, 
>allowing living organisms to be directly manipulated into variant life 
>forms."

BTW, I just told J.P. about this find (actually, I remembered the
reference, I just forgot that it was a world settled pre/early RoM
times.  He concurs with what Traveller says about this.

>This would definitively place the technology used on Carl's World
>between 14 and 19, probably at the lower end.  Please note that the
>Jonkereen also fall into this category.

OK, that at first seems to match previous findings, so no surprise in
that regard.

A question.  If we (Terra/Third Imperium) managed to find a dinosaurod
cell that was viable, and we placed it in an ostrich egg, is that good
enough to give us the equivalent dinosaur from the one cell, despite a
non-sauroid egg as host?

Second question.  If we can do this with dinosaurs at TL14, what is
different from doing the total rejuvenation at TL21?  I can imagine a
good cloned body, with no RNA, but that is just TL20 total memory
transfer, right?  So why do we have to wait to TL21 for total rejuv.?

>IMO, the geneering techniques required to re-engineer sauropods and 
>such from mosquito spit is probably about 14.  this is consistent with 
>the premise that the RoM enjoyed highly advanced biomedical technology,
>if the project occured then

I don't necessarily disagree here.  I just want to follow through on all
reasoning before I make up my mind on claims made here.

>- -Dan Lane.

Thanks for the quick turnaround. :)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:57:05 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Cannon?!? (was Re: Planning for Traveller Design)

On Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:11 BST-1
aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) writes:
>Subject: Re: Planning for Traveller Design
>
>Mark,
>
>> to the point we can agree.  The Rule of Man tech level debate is an
>> example of that, I think - aside from yourself, we agreed that a tech
>> level of 12-low 13 was about right, with perhaps +1 in medical and
>> biotech.
>
>The final vote result, BTW, was
>
>11- : 0
>12  : 6
>13  : 3
>14+ : 0
>
>Andrew M J Boulton

On at least one post, someone said that Marc Miller had been quoted as
saying it was TL15, and to be fair, someone at DGP had said that it was
TL13.  Those numbers should be included in any proper tally. :)

Didn't someone say that there were 300+ people on this list?  That is
_not_ a call for voting again.  Besides, if it really were canon, how
could voting on it make it so?  I am serious about this.  I am willing
to listen to views of canonists and non-canonists alike.

It seems to me that the big flaw of canonism is that it is also dependent
upon rules interpretation, which is not always consistent among people
discussing _any_ game.

You know, I think I now understand why _nobody_ (except Harold in one
note on another subject), ever responded to my "What is Canon?" thread.
I also think that were lurkers to decide to risk having their opinions
known (and toasted, and I don't mean the kind with wineglasses), we could
identify a myriad of canon frames of reference, in the Einsteinian sense.

Thoughts?

(And now for some humor for the troops in the trenches.)

I'm beginning to feel more and more like canon is the bad tasting meal
you are obliged to eat when visiting a friend's house. :)

As that old song goes, "Canon to the left of me, canon to the right--
here I am, stuck in the middle with you." :)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:26:10 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Commission rolls too easy?

>What if your charecter conception is that the charecter was an enlisted
>person and not an officer ? I had this same problem with MT as well.  I
>generated a charecter who was a naval officer and determined that both
>his parents had also been in the navy.  Slightly later I had a bit of
>extra time and decided to roll up both of his mothers (This charecter
>was the genetic product of two women via artificial means.)  I started
>them both out as E1's.  Both charecters made their way up through the
>enlisted ranks, attended OCS and achieved promotion all the way to O10,
>Grand Admiral. I did run these charecters through a large number of
>terms (because I had deceided that the parents of my 34 year old
>charecter had just retired) but did not mess with the results in any
>way.  My initial charecter conception, that of a Naval academy officer
>son of proud enlisted parents had to change to that of the son of two
>mustang Grand Admirals.

Huh? Excuse me, but why the hell didn't you 1) just create them by hand,
or 2) ignore rolling for Commission? This is the perfect example of when
*NOT* to roll up a character's (or NPC's) background. You want his 
mothers to be enlisted characters? Fine, MAKE them enlisted characters.
No chart is *forcing* you to give them commissions.

My tone isn't directed at you, Peter, it's a product of the "chart for every-
thing" syndrome that is creeping into Traveller once again. This is why I
was so opposed to the Birthday chart being in the book instead of the 
simple instruction to pick a number between 1 and 365. It's why, although
I like the background detail charts that were posted recently and 
appreciate the work that went into them, I dislike the concept... what's 
next, charts to tell us what our characters' favorite colors are? A table
detailing what they had for breakfast this morning?

>Easy promotion has always been a feature of the MT (and CT advanced)
>charecter generation system.  Depending on branch and assignment Naval
>charecters tend to have a promotion chance of better than 50% (usually a
>7+) per year (not counting training).  Since each officer may only
>receive 1 promotion per 4 year term what this means is that a naval
>officer has less than 1 chance in 16 (0.5^4) of not being promoted each
>term.  I agree that the roles are a little easy but this is not a _new_
>feature.

Agreed, because Traveller characters are that cut above the rest of the
downtrodden masses in the Imperium. Therefore, promotion comes 
easier than it does in Real Life(tm). If someone doesn't want an officer, 
then don't roll on the commission table. I'm going to put that option into
Beginnings in the next version out. 

It's also why I don't have a problem with such a high chance of becoming
a Noble in chargen; this *isn't* the table that normal people in the 3I get
to roll on when they are born, this is the table for Travellers!  :)


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:02:40 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

You wrote:

> Agreed. Here's where I beg MM to do a reprint editions of MT (with the
> erratta applied) in two volumes (PM/IE/COACC, RM/RC/RebSB/HT)...
> <grovelling on floor> Please???</grovelling>
> 
>  >>
>I love Traveller. But it cannot continue except through increased sales to an
>ever widening group of people. And through distribution and retail store
>sales, I would clearly wager that we woulnd't get enough pre-orders to
>warrant the printing costs. No matter how much anyone says anything, we will
>never go back to CT, MT, TNE.

I agree that you can never go back. However, it may be in the best
interest of Traveller to look into reformating and printing (CD or
otherwise) much of what has be already done. It represents a huge
resource that any new player would find invaluable. Remove game rules,
etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. This is what makes Traveller
so unique in the market place, it very long history and brand. Why not
build on it. Heck, why are you not using that angle now? Traveller: the
longest running space RPG on the market! 

In addition, I do a ton of work in with different types of print
production and with the changes in digitial technology it is very
possible to do short run print jobs. Or why not go to a Just In time
print capability? 

I would look into both a CD as a resource, and a simple two color short
run resource guide for non-computer people. 

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:36:40 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

><< Each noble
> should be unique, since if they are carbon cut-outs with arbitrary levels
> of power, then their whole purpose and funtion in the game--to provide a
> varied and complex political background for an interstellar Empire with an
> old-fashioned feudal structure underneath all that tech--is lost. >>
>
>I agree that every character should be unique as well. Not all nobles have
>property, and the MO tables will reflect that. In fact, in the Imperium, not
>all nobles are rich (or filthy rich) or even hold any reasonable power. The
>purpose of the chargen and MO tables is to provide some information by which
>a character can be fleshed out by the ref and the player.
>
>Marc

I realise that some general guidelines (and attendant tables) are
neccesary, but this thread produced so much specific debate about hexes and
hierarchies that I felt that a case needed to be made for the unique nature
of each member of the nobility (they are, after all, not that common,
otherwise they'd be "commoners" :) ). Perhaps the intended spirit of these
charts as guidelines could be noted nearby in the revised rules text. It
might encourage a little more creativity in this very important part of the
game.

Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1613
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, July 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1614



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Double-Agent

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:12:07 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

> A Rogue maquerading as an Agent spends his odd terms posing as a Merchant.
>
>T1 Rogue (required). T2. Agent. T3 (T2 as Agent) assumed identity as
>Merchant. T4. Agent again. T5 (T4 as Agent) assumed identity as Merchant (or
>whatever). T6 (T5 as Agent). Agent. T7 must resolve as Rogue.

[snip of failure of continuence rolls]

Marc,

Are you intending on putting examples like this one in the main rulebook,
with explainations such as your post? I feel that it would be VERY worth
while, especially for new players (who we all want introduced to
Traveller). Perhaps it could be part of a FAQ section after all the
character careers. The one example currently there doesn't really cut it
(IMHO anyway).

Also in the FAQ section you could/should answer questions like multiple
careers (if you decide they aren't allowed in the standard rules),
automatic skills (this one had me wondering until I saw the other post
recently - as far as I know it isn't clear in the current T4 rules either),
and many other things which I'm sure the TML could come up with. T4.1 has
to be as friendly to new GMs as possible - if you are going to have a whole
page just to choose a number between 1 and 365, you could devote at least 1
page (and preferable several) to questions and answers.

Regards,
Jason

PS: T4.1 looks like it is going to be excellent - keep up the good work!

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1614
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, July 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1615



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4.1 Characters
Re: FS Data rewrite
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: FS Data rewrite
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Genetics in Traveller
RE: RTF Copy of Marc's CHARGEN.ZIP wanted
Cannon?!? (was Re: Planning for Traveller Design)
Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Roswell
Underdeveloped Genetics and Theme Parks
Underdeveloped Genetics and Theme Parks
Re: Major/Minor Races
Genetics and the dinosaur cell
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Is t4 Traveller?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:23:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1 Characters

In a message dated 97-07-27 17:52:39 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Interestingly, it seems to work out the same in the end. Traveller adds a
new 
 grade at the start, plus another flavour of sergeant, which helps to explain

 all the extra promotions, but I still don't like the huge leap at the start.

 How about moving one of those to the 2nd term?
  >>

Traveller is basically founded on the US Army rank structure. They call a new
recruit Recruit E1, and they advance him to Private E2 after about 6 weeks.
Private First Class E3 comes to many within a few months, and virtually
everyone after a year.After two years, they make you E4 (Usually they call it
Specialist 4th Class). Thereafter promotions come about 1 per term.

What this does is bunch a lot of military training and skills into the first
term for enlisted people. Technically, I would think its worth while spending
your first term as an enlisted person. Go for Commission in Term2.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:23:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: FS Data rewrite

In a message dated 97-07-27 19:30:18 EDT, you write:

<< 
 How's the FS data re-write going?
 
 Haven't heard anything from anyone on the list for a while and I was
 wondering if you'd all given up... ;-)
 
  >>
Char gen as taken priority. Then I'll turn to it.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:22:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

In a message dated 97-07-27 17:37:44 EDT, you write:

<< 
   Wouldn't a small run be much more economical on CD-ROM, whether it
 was intended for regular retail or strictly pre-order/mail-order only?
 
  >>
I would love to see a complete GDW CT and MT (and even TNE) on CD ROM. That
certainly will be a topic of discussion when we get to that point.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:23:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In a message dated 97-07-27 09:05:47 EDT, you write:

<<=20
 I noted your comment about being able to sell a complete set of MT.  As =
a
 collector, what would that set cost?
=20
  >>

I have the following:

MEGATRAVELLER
		Players=92 Handbook	$10
		Referee=92s Handbook	10
		Imperial Encyclopedia	10
		Referee's Companion	10
		Rebellion Sourcebook	10
		COACC	10
		Fighting Ships	10
		Knightfall	10
		Hard Times	14

Shipping is $3 for an order.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:21:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

In a message dated 97-07-27 21:47:38 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Since I meddle constantly... these are a suggestion to get away from the US
 based ranks for the Imperial Marine Force.  
 
 E-1  Recruit (RCT)
 E-2  Marine  (MRN)
 E-3  Monitor  (MTR)
 E-4  Corporal (CPL)
 E-5  Sergeant (SGT)
 E-6  Gunnery Sergeant (G/SGT)
 E-7  Master Sergeant  (M/SGT)
 E-8  Ship's Sergeant  (S/SGT)
      Master Gunner   (M/G)
 E-9  Fleet Sergeant  (F/SGT)
      Command Fleet Sergeant (CF/SGT)
      Master Fleet Sergeant  (MF/SGT)

comment: For E9, Command and Master are positions rather than ranks (ie, you
get them only if you are in a specific position). In the US Army, Platoon
Sergeant is also E7 (but only applies if the guy is in a Plateoon Sergeant
position), and ditto for E8 First Sergeant.

 
 O-1  Force Ensign  (FENS)
 O-2  Force Lieutenant (FLT)
 O-3  Sr. Force Lieutenant (SFLT)
 O-4  Major  (MAJ)
 O-5  Force Commander (FCDR)
 O-6  Colonel  (COL)
 O-7  Brigade Leader (BL) 
 O-8  Lt. General (L/GEN)
 O-9  General  (GEN)
 0-10 Fleet General (F/GEN)

Comnment: there is a certain logic to the prefix :"force" for O1 to O4. I'll
look at it.

Marc
>>


(Here is the current iteration as per T41 Chargen).

Service Ranks
E1	Marine
E2	Private
E3	Lance Corporal
E4	Corporal
E5	Sergeant
E6	Gunnery Sergeant
E7	Sergeant First Class
E8	Master Sergeant
E9	Sergeant Major

O1	Second Lieutenant
O2	First Lieutenant
O3	Captain
O4Force Commander
O5Lieutenant Coronel
O6	Coronel
O7	Brigadier
O8	Fleet General
O9	General

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net> wrote:

> At TL 14, the RC states that "genetic engineering techniques culminate 
> in the creation of altered, "improved" life forms, including sentients.

> At TL 19, the RC states that "Advanced bioengineering is developed, 
> allowing living organisms to be directly manipulated into variant life 
> forms."

I don't know about anyone else, but, to me this description sounds like
you take a living being (like your character) drop it in a vat and it
comes out with wings, horns, gills, or even as an entirely different
species.  This is purely Ancient level tech which no one in the 1st, 2nd,
or 3rd Imperium has ever come close to. 

> This would definitively place the technology used on Carl's World
> between 14 and 19, probably at the lower end.  Please note that the
> Jonkereen also fall into this category.

The Jonkereen were geneered not bioengineered, so TL 14. Unless the folks
on Carl's world were dropping adult goats into vats and bioengineering
them into dinosaurs creating dinosaurs form lizard DNA would be TL 14, and
creating them from partial dinosaur DNA would be even easier (perhaps TL
12)? 

IMHO, the geneering techniques required to re-engineer sauropods and such
from mosquito spit is probably about 14. 

At TL 14 you could make dinosaurs out of lizard or bird DNA.  If you have
large segments of dino DNA you have a *big* head start on the process and
could almost certainly do it earlier. 

Since we are doing *lots* of genetic engineering now (TL 8) I'd say that
TL 14 means you can create animals (or people) made to order.  The old DGP
TD articles on medicine sated this pretty clearly (by 1100 a few companies
had even sold off a bunch of geneered FFFF (Str, End, Dex, Int) humans to
various buyers. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:47:00 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

Marc,

>                 Knightfall      10

I'm not interested in purchasing it, but what is "Knightfall"?  I've
never heard of thsi MT product.  Is it a supplement, adventure, etc.? 
I'd appreciate it if you could fill me in.

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:54:22 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: FS Data rewrite

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-07-27 19:30:18 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  How's the FS data re-write going?
> 
>  Haven't heard anything from anyone on the list for a while and I was
>  wondering if you'd all given up... ;-)
> 
>   >>
> Char gen as taken priority. Then I'll turn to it.
> 
> Marc

Question: If the corrected FS data is going to be in M0 Campaign, which
is due to come out this week, shouldn't all of the rewrite be done by
now?  am I missing something here?  What exactly is going to be
corrected in M0 Campaign?

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:51:21 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

> I would love to see a complete GDW CT and MT (and even TNE) on CD ROM.
> That
> certainly will be a topic of discussion when we get to that point.
> 
> Marc

And this wouldn't just be useful from a "fan-wanting-everything'
perspective.  It'd give people a chance to read those extremely rare
products (i.e. Alien modules!), as well as putting all of Traveller's
'canon' into an easily accessible form.  This would promote the
conintuance of a consistent history in T4 and not make it, like some
have suggested a 'different Traveller'.

Marc; please urge IG to consider this product.  

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:51:40 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Hi,

> >warrant the printing costs. No matter how much anyone says anything,
> we will
> >never go back to CT, MT, TNE.
> 
>   Wouldn't a small run be much more economical on CD-ROM, whether it
> was intended for regular retail or strictly pre-order/mail-order only?

Kind of on this topic, I'd love to see a Traveller 20th anniversary
edition of the T4 rules presented in three little black books.  The
front of the box would be identical to the original CT except for a fold
foil stamp number:

 ----------------
|      #0001     |
|    1977-1997   |
|    TRAVELLER   |
 ----------------

Or something similar.  To avoid confusion over the contents, have the
back printed with a new 'blurb' explaining that the contents fof the
T4.1 book have been reprinted in three little black books ala the
origninal CT volumes.  Also, just make them have text inside like the
originals.

Hell, I'd buy it!

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:59:02 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

Hi,

> > At TL 19, the RC states that "Advanced bioengineering is developed,
> > allowing living organisms to be directly manipulated into variant
> life
> > forms."
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but, to me this description sounds
> like
> you take a living being (like your character) drop it in a vat and it
> comes out with wings, horns, gills, or even as an entirely different
> species.  This is purely Ancient level tech which no one in the 1st,
> 2nd,
> or 3rd Imperium has ever come close to.

Perhaps it should read something like this:

TL 19 Genetics - "Advanced bioengineering is developed, allowing
non-sentient living organisms to be directly manipulated into variant
lifeforms.  The process is instituted in a normal lifeform, and takes
several generations to manifest itself fully."

This would lower the power of the genetics to effect only non-sentient
creatures, so that nothing on the scale of the Ancient large-scale
manipulation of huamsn can be done.  Also, by adding the 'takes several
generations' it is not a 'drop it in a vat' scenario.  Comments?

Thanks,

Peter Miller

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:08:07 -0700
From: "Marcus S. Zarra" <bratt@primenet.com>
Subject: RE: RTF Copy of Marc's CHARGEN.ZIP wanted

Is there any chance that anyone on the list could email me a copy of that list?

I would even be willing to convert it to another format for anyone.

- --Marcus

- -----Original Message-----
From:	John R. Snead [SMTP:jsnead@netcom.com]
Sent:	Friday, July 25, 1997 1:41 AM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	RTF Copy of Marc's CHARGEN.ZIP wanted

Marc Miller recently emailed many folks here (including me) a copy of his
latest chargen rules as a large zip file.  Unfortunately for me it was in
MS Word format.  Could anyone email me a copy in RTF or MS Works format? 

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:59:43 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Cannon?!? (was Re: Planning for Traveller Design)

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes: 

>Didn't someone say that there were 300+ people on this list?  That is
>_not_ a call for voting again.  Besides, if it really were canon, how
>could voting on it make it so?  I am serious about this.  I am willing
>to listen to views of canonists and non-canonists alike.

   I think Andrew is looking for what the general concensus on the
subject is.  Those that really give a rat's butt have probably voted by
now.  The consensus would seem to be TL 12-13.

>It seems to me that the big flaw of canonism is that it is also dependent
>upon rules interpretation, which is not always consistent among people
>discussing _any_ game.

   If you want to talk *Traveller*, there is a great deal of consensus
on a wide variety of issues dealing with the background material. 
That's why Canonists find MMT a bit more than frustrating--it doesn't
agree with Traveller on some pretty basic issues.  Imagine trying to
debate American History with someone from a parallel universe, where
there was no Spanish-American War (thus no American control of the
Phillipines, T. Roosevelt never becomes President, etc.) and George
Patton was elected President of the U.S. instead of Eisenhower.  

>You know, I think I now understand why _nobody_ (except Harold in one
>note on another subject), ever responded to my "What is Canon?" thread.
>I also think that were lurkers to decide to risk having their opinions
>known (and toasted, and I don't mean the kind with wineglasses), we could
>identify a myriad of canon frames of reference, in the Einsteinian sense.
>
>Thoughts?

   Relativism is a MMT concept, not a Traveller concept.  If GDW said
it, that was that, no matter what anyone else said (including DGP). 
While there are a wide variety of variant Traveller campaigns being run
by people out there, I doubt if any of those running them consider them
anything but a variant, and not just another interpretation of the
official storyline.

>I'm beginning to feel more and more like canon is the bad tasting meal
>you are obliged to eat when visiting a friend's house. :)

   As in real life, if you don't like the food, go eat at a restaurant
down the street, or make your own food at home!

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:07:06 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: T4.1 char gen - comments...

- ->  - Please add more careers, from CT, MT (+COACC), Challenge, TNE(?),
- ->    PE, TML...
- -> 
- -> Maybe at some future time.
Do i hear "New Supplement"??

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:01:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

- -> > What else?
- -> 
- ->     Howabout something for those of us who are world building fanatics?
- -> Something al la World Builders Handbook, only in greater detail and with
- -> sections allowing/showing how to detail the planetary history would be nice.
MORE detail???
Sorry, but i think i'd give that book a pass if ever published. WBH 
was exellent and contained loads of detail...More detail and it's no 
fun anymore, but becomes hard work instead!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:03:42 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Roswell

> > Does anybody still seriously believe in the UFO story?
> 
> A lot of people think the X Files is a documentary...

... and allegedly 2% of US citizens think they've been abducted by 
aliens.  (I suspect that what the survey actually shows is 2% of 
Americans fulfil criteria which are consistent with but do not imply 
the standard "abduction story" which is now public folklore anyway.)

> > Actually, does anybody seriously believe the US government could keep a
> > secret this long, especially one this big
> 
> That's my main reason for not believing the USAF has a hanger full off 
> LGMs.

On a visit to the FBI museum, my g/f Catharine[*] asked about X-files 
and the FBI guide said, rather wearily, that they didn't exist.  So 
shurely they must? 8-)

[*] The only person I know who's tried whistling "Yankee Doodle" in a 
crowded bar in Atlanta.


Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1997 11:11:02 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Underdeveloped Genetics and Theme Parks

From: mark.samuels@questintl.com

Indeed Leroy, genetics and biotechnology of all kinds are underdeveloped in 
Traveller.  Though a creative referee can always try and make up for these 
things.  The list of what's possible at each TL seems pessimistic - I'd set 
my sights even higher!

Re: dinosaurs.  Scott, are you a fellow geneticist then?
Of course, if some intact pieces of DNA were found that contained dinosaur 
genes, a bit of judicious engineering with the DNA of, say, a crocodile 
might produce some interesting hybrid research ...  Oh no, I must have been 
reading too much science fiction!  Maybe recreating a 100% authentic 
dinosaur would require TL14, but I'm sure you could create something that 
resembled one at a much lower tech level.  Roll on those theme parks ...

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1997 11:11:02 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Underdeveloped Genetics and Theme Parks

From: mark.samuels@questintl.com

Indeed Leroy, genetics and biotechnology of all kinds are underdeveloped in 
Traveller.  Though a creative referee can always try and make up for these 
things.  The list of what's possible at each TL seems pessimistic - I'd set 
my sights even higher!

Re: dinosaurs.  Scott, are you a fellow geneticist then?
Of course, if some intact pieces of DNA were found that contained dinosaur 
genes, a bit of judicious engineering with the DNA of, say, a crocodile 
might produce some interesting hybrid research ...  Oh no, I must have been 
reading too much science fiction!  Maybe recreating a 100% authentic 
dinosaur would require TL14, but I'm sure you could create something that 
resembled one at a much lower tech level.  Roll on those theme parks ...

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:56:56 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

- -> How about Geshikstries Sternshiffbau AG (sp? = GSbAG). 
That would be Gesichtskreis Sternschiffbau.
Although it remains a puzzle to me what a Face-Circle is and why it 
builds starships! ;-)
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1997 11:14:53 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Genetics and the dinosaur cell

From: mark.samuels@questintl.com

On Leroy's question of what could be done with an intact dinosaur cell, I'd 
have thought that depends on the cell.  During the growth of most higher 
animals, cells differentiate themselves (some become eye cells, others skin 
cells, etc).  So you'd probably have to find a cells that has not yet 
differentiated itself, such as a fertilised egg cell.  Of course, 
sufficiently advanced technology may be able to reverse or alter cell 
differentiation, e.g. changing a skin cell into an eye cell, in which case 
any cell might do.

As Scott said, the first problem is getting all the DNA intact.  Here are 
some more complications.  Parts of the cell's machinery called mitochondria 
(which produce energy for the cell) have their own separate nucleic acid.  
Still, you could maybe use mitochondria from another animal, because they 
are "highly conserved", i.e. haven't changed much with evolution.  The next 
complication is that, although DNA tells a cell what proteins to assemble, 
the final form of the proteins if affected by other cell machinery (e.g. by 
glycosylation, for any technoheads out there).  You could have a go by 
playing with dinosaur DNA in a non-dinosaur cell.  But to create a truly 
authentic dinosaur, you'd need more than just the DNA.

Don't see that this should ruin a good plot.  I can't imagine players, on 
seeing a Velocoraptor look-alike, saying: "Don't worry, it's not 
authentic!"

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:54:34 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

- -> >                 Knightfall      10
- -> 
- -> I'm not interested in purchasing it, but what is "Knightfall"?  I've
- -> never heard of thsi MT product.  Is it a supplement, adventure, etc.? 
- -> I'd appreciate it if you could fill me in.
It's an adventure, and a good one at that...
It was written by the folks from DGP for GDW, and contains the hunt 
for an incedibly ancient treasure (a city of the race the Ancients 
were researching, the Primordeals) It is set in Massilia sector, and 
is supremely laid out, presented in the Nugget format and contains 
smaller parts that could be used seperatly as well. Add to that that 
it is set between the fronts of Margaret and Lucan (with Agents of 
Dulinor as well), you have an exiting Rebellion-era adventure. 






Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:39:22 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

- -> << 
- ->    Wouldn't a small run be much more economical on CD-ROM, whether it
- ->  was intended for regular retail or strictly pre-order/mail-order only?
- ->  
- ->   >>
- -> I would love to see a complete GDW CT and MT (and even TNE) on CD ROM. That
- -> certainly will be a topic of discussion when we get to that point.
- -> Marc
How about finally allowing Roger Sanger to reprint the DGP books on 
CD-Rom??
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:49:37 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

- ->     BTW. A while ago you said there's ben some trouble with the reprint 
- -> of the CT alien modules. Have the heard anything from the company? I 
- -> have one copy reserved, but I'm holding out for a while to see if 
- -> this thing turns out to be a hoax. It's still around $180 incl. 
- -> postage and insurance, I could put that money to much better use (= 
- -> buying the two CT Alien modules I'm missing, + Alien Realms .. if 
- -> only somebody would sell them!).
No there's no problem with that book. The store that sells it, is not 
related to the guys who printed it (and failed to send MM his copy).
I ordered the books and had it in the mail not one week later!
So reserve your copy soon, they are moving fast! It is not a hoax, 
this book exists, and looks beautiful!


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1615
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, July 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1616



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle
Re: Deep Space
RE: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re[2]: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: FF&S?
Genetics in Traveller
TRTOOLS on the web
Deep Space Depots, Career Books, World Design Book
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: Double-Agent
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Farstar
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
resources
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Major/Minor races
Re: Bounties, and the hunting thereof
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Double-Agent
An Officer and a Gentleman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:45:45 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle

- -> >>- -> >> When, oh when, will the Holy Grail of Traveller be published (the CD
- -> >with
- -> >>- -> >> electronic versions of everything GDW and DGP printed)?
- -> >>- -> >
- -> >>- -> >And the special editions, with a scan of Marc's signature on...
- -> >>- -> 
- -> >>- -> I'm holding out for the audio track with Marc and Loren singing "In the
- -> >>- -> Year 2525"...
- -> >>Hey, this could actually sell ;-)
- -> >
- -> >You've never heard me sing, have you?
- -> 
- ->     Hey, I've heard Leonard Nimoy sing "If I Had A Hammer," and William
- -> Shatner sing "Lucy In The Skies, With Diamonds." You could NOT be any worse ...
Yes, Shatner had his very own style of singing (RoFMl), when i first 
saw it, it cracked me up the whole day...Just thinking about it....

BTW.: Did you ever hear Leonard Nimoy's Bilbo-Baggins-Song (and see 
the video) ? This is the stuff of legends (in Humorland, anyway)
 


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:52:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space

In mail you write:

> At 21:08 25/07/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>It's also possible that by very careful observation after jumping into
>>an "empty" hex you could find a comet or even a "small" moon made of
>>ice. Refine the fuel on the spot.
>
>   Interesting. How fast do comets travel, and how long would it take a 1g or
> 2g ship to match velocities? Would you have to take hydrogen in from the
> comet's tail or blast chunks off the comet, pick them up, and refine them
> that way?

The comet won't *have* a tail that far out. Remember, the tail is
caused by the solar wind pushing on material that is evaporating as the
comet warms up. And it's warming up due to the increased sunlight as it
gets closer to the star.

The velocity will be neglible as far as orbital velocity goes. Thjat
far from a star orbital velocities are measured in *meters* per second.
Random velocity components may be larger. But it shouldn't be any worse
than matching the velocity difference between star systems.

Considering that comets are around 5-10 km in diameter, you'd probably
"dig in" and melt the ice (water, methane, ammonia, maybe even hydrogen
ice). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:41:11 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: RE: Alternate Marine Ranks

I thought the term Force Commander was used instead of Captain to avoid 
confusion with Naval Captain's.

Besides being formerly of the US Army I use US Military Ranks across the 
board, most of the players can identify with them and they add more flavor 
(Most players play Military Characters in my games)

- -----Original Message-----
From:	CardSharks@aol.com [SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com]
Sent:	Monday, July 28, 1997 12:21 AM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

In a message dated 97-07-27 21:47:38 EDT, you write:

<<
 (Here is the current iteration as per T41 Chargen).

Service Ranks
E1	Marine
E2	Private
E3	Lance Corporal
E4	Corporal
E5	Sergeant
E6	Gunnery Sergeant
E7	Sergeant First Class
E8	Master Sergeant
E9	Sergeant Major

O1	Second Lieutenant
O2	First Lieutenant
O3	Captain
O4Force Commander
O5Lieutenant Coronel
O6	Coronel
O7	Brigadier
O8	Fleet General
O9	General

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1997 13:59:08 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: CT/MT Re-releases

How about finally allowing Roger Sanger to reprint the DGP books on 
CD-Rom??
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.
     Indeed, I'm sure many of us would happily pay for CT/MT reprints, 
     whether on paper or CD-Rom.  (Well, as happy as you can ever be about 
     paying ... )
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:21:33 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S?

>What exactly is FF&S? Is it another system that is compatible with T4, or
>an expansion for T4? Is it still available? What exactly does it cover?

FF&S, or Fire Fusion and Steel, was, in some people's opinion (including
mine) just about the most valuable product in the Traveller:The New Era
line for us old fogies who were still playing "Classic" traveller or
Megatraveller.

It is (or was, since its out of print) a relatively complete hard-science
fiction set of design rules for all manner of vehicles and weapons.  There
were design tables and sequences for Mass Drivers, Lasers, Small Arms
(Chemical, gauss and Electro-Thermo-Chemical[ETC] propelled rounds), CPR
Guns, Electronic components, missiles, all kinds of vehicles, and, of
course, starships.  There were also smallish sections on alternative
technologies...including the alternative of returning to "Classic"
traveller technologies (TNE had no "reactionless" thrusters, which meant
that space combat became a contest of economic usage of limited fuel
resources).

My own copy is dog-eared and well worn at the edges.  Especially the Gun
design section.  The other sections were not as useful unless you were
playing the TNE rules in toto.  I adopted the personal combat rules since
that altered the backgroung hardly at all (although I did add in Fusion and
Plasma guns).

By the way, if anyone has a copy of FF&S (original) for sale, or will trade
for a few Challenge magazines, let me know.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jul 1997 14:26:17 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Genetics in Traveller

Peter,
Re: taking several generations for full manifestation.  Taking 
generations for changes applies to genetic breeding programs, so you'd 
be right if talking about this.  You wouldn't have to wait if you used 
genetic engineering: you just splice those genes right in and hey 
presto!  There are obviously one or two other factors to consider (e.g. 
gene promoters and start/stop instructions) but you can get an instant 
result.

Incidentally, most characteristics are probably affected by both genes 
and environment.  So I doubt you could get an FFFF (Str, End, Dex, Int) 
by genetics alone.  Training, the right nutrition, etc would have to 
accompany the genetic manipulation.  Not that this should be a problem 
for an unscrupulous megacorp.  Viewers of 'Space Above and Beyond' may 
find inspiration for how the military might approach this.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:36:15 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TRTOOLS on the web

The TRTOOLS suite is now available on the WWW.  Point your browser to

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/software.html

and download the latest version (V0.93).

BTW, I've started worl on V0.94, starting with a small utility to correct
the stellar data in the Second Survey files.  For those interested, it used
the procedure as outlined in Challenge #77, p24 (part of the 'Collapsing
Worlds' article by Mark Gelinas.

Next comes an expanded sector mapping utility, with provision to map a
sector according to trade codes.  Finally, subsector mapping will be
revamped, with the ability to map trade / xboat routes onto the subsector
display.

Expect V0.94 around the end of August, work permitting...


Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:08:09 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Deep Space Depots, Career Books, World Design Book

Just quickly...

DEEP SPACE DEPOTS

Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk> asked about Deep Space...

>I can't really remember reading anything at all in all the Traveller books
>I've got about deep space supply depots. Is this something I've missed?

These exist in various canon sources, as pointed out by other TML members,
from CT to TNE. The majority of such stations are secret military bases and
are thus rarely mentioned. Such bases do contravene the principle of having
to have a large gravity well as a jump destination (which has sometimes been
called 'canon'). I decided they were a useful plot and gaming device for PE
(and Traveller in general) and thus they appeared in the war rules.

>What references are there about them? Surely various empires would have
>built these depots to cross rifts, saving time and money.

As a general point, they should be extremely expensive to build and run;
unfortunately the war rules underwent a number of changes just before we
submitted PE to IG, so I can't recall offhand the precise details.

MEGACORPS AND CAREER-SPECIFIC BOOKS

Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> and Peter Miller discussed career-specific
books...

> > But specifically, I could see...
> > MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
> > Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
> Basically, I believe that a lot of the careers should have their own
> book for grandeouse (eek! sp?), and larger than single character
> adventures.

>Better is books on certain topics that may interest/affect multiple
>character types.  Business: Merchants, Rogues, Nobles, Agents
>(industrial espionage), Entertainers (consider the size of the
>entertainment industry);
>Exploration: Scouts, Scholars, Agents, misc.
>Large-scale combat (Space and Ground): Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts.

CORE/BITS were intending to bring out a series of such books this year.
However, our efforts have been somewhat diverted towards work for IG, hence
the limited output this year. These books were also suggested to IG in our
product proposal last year and we are currently talking to IG about 1998
products.

>However, I would support a large number of books, if they were *Small*
>and *cheap*. Talking $12 a book per career at most.

This was our intention with the BITS books (which are about 4.50 UKP, i.e.
6-7$US in the UK, and 36-40 A5 pages). However, our proposals to IG were/are
to amalgamate multiple careers into larger books, to make them cost effective.

WORLD DESIGN BOOK

s.johnson107@genie.com said:

>    Howabout something for those of us who are world building fanatics?
>Something al la World Builders Handbook, only in greater detail and with
>sections allowing/showing how to detail the planetary history would be nice.

Another one of our proposals to IG (which seems to be a likely candidate for
1998) is a World Design Book, which updates the Scouts and TNE systems and
includes a much wider range of RPG-related details (on technologies,
cultures, mercantile considerations, etc.) than the WBH. Each section of the
book would concentrate upon a particular aspect of the system or world
generation process and would allow you two levels of detail - the first
simplistic level would allow a referee to generate just enough waffle to
satisfy the players with superficial details (for example, how many asteroid
belts in the system or how many starports and their general level of
facilities); the second level would go into greater detail (for example, the
composition of the asteroid belts and details of mining therein; or the
precise number and nature of berths at the starport, and the detailed level
of service, shops, engineering facilities, etc. available). The book would
have more textual explanations of aspects of the star system and world
cultures (rather like FF&S explained various technicalities in sidebars and
sections) so that the book would be of use to the less technical/scientific
referees (which could not really be said of previous such books). For
example, it would tell you just how far about your average asteroids were... :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:51:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

In a message dated 97-07-28 02:04:30 EDT, Leroy wrote:

<<  A question.  If we (Terra/Third Imperium) managed to find a dinosaurod
 cell that was viable, and we placed it in an ostrich egg, is that good
 enough to give us the equivalent dinosaur from the one cell, despite a
 non-sauroid egg as host?>>

It wouldn't be "exact"  the evolved chemical signals that the ostrich egg
would contain would elicit a minimal response, but the overall effect would
most likely be a non-viable organism.  It would be akin to placing human DNA
inside the egg of a lemur.  In fact, the analogy should be more extreme as
there is only a ten million or so difference in mutation of the DNA sequence,
 whereas the ostrich and dinosaur DNA would be on the order of a hundred
million years seperation.  The triggers contained within the egg would almost
useless to the developing embryo.
 
<< Second question.  If we can do this with dinosaurs at TL14, what is
 different from doing the total rejuvenation at TL21?  I can imagine a
 good cloned body, with no RNA, but that is just TL20 total memory
 transfer, right?  So why do we have to wait to TL21 for total rejuv.? >>

You are correct, sir!  There shouldn't be a need for the further category
unless it was canonical intent that this technology lay only within the grasp
of Grandfather.

Thanks for your interesting posts of recent weeks, Leroy.  Keep the good work
coming!

Scott Quigg "XatoKuom@aol.com"
B.S. Molecular Genetics Univ. of Georgia '96

 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:05:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In a message dated 97-07-28 05:12:28 EDT, you write:

<< but what is "Knightfall"? >>

Knightfall was an adventure set in the Massila sector. Included a map of the
sector and sector data.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:08:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

In a message dated 97-07-28 04:10:19 EDT, you write:

<< if you are going to have a whole
 page just to choose a number between 1 and 365,  >>

That sounds kind of catty.

In any case, I am striving to make the T41 text answer the questions that
need to be answered in much the way you suggest (or in the text itself).

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:05:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

In a message dated 97-07-28 02:03:19 EDT, Bob Sanders writes:

<< Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. >>

I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
and modules.

The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:

Scan every page as an image.
Scan every page and convert to text.
Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
material.
Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.

Comments?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:13:18 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Farstar

David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk> wrote:

>Subject: Re: Strange design/drive question
>In one of the old challenges, Marcus Roland had an article called project
>Farstar. This had 5 or 6 77 patron style encounters dealing with oddly
>jumped ships. I can't find it at the moment, perhaps someone could flesh
>out some of the info regarding what happens with weird drive configs...

Challenge 33, pp.33-37
Three scenarios based around an Imperial attempt to find faster FTL drives;
a further reading list and six options for characters marooned in space.

HTH

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:18:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

In a message dated 97-07-27 21:47:38 EDT, Douglas Berry wrote:

<< E-1  Recruit (RCT)
 E-2  Marine  (MRN)
 E-3  Monitor  (MTR)
 E-4  Corporal (CPL)
 E-5  Sergeant (SGT)
 E-6  Gunnery Sergeant (G/SGT)
 E-7  Master Sergeant  (M/SGT)
 E-8  Ship's Sergeant  (S/SGT)
      Master Gunner   (M/G)
 E-9  Fleet Sergeant  (F/SGT)
      Command Fleet Sergeant (CF/SGT)
      Master Fleet Sergeant  (MF/SGT)
 
 O-1  Force Ensign  (FENS)
 O-2  Force Lieutenant (FLT)
 O-3  Sr. Force Lieutenant (SFLT)
 O-4  Major  (MAJ)
 O-5  Force Commander (FCDR)
 O-6  Colonel  (COL)
 O-7  Brigade Leader (BL) 
 O-8  Lt. General (L/GEN)
 O-9  General  (GEN)
 0-10 Fleet General (F/GEN) >>

As I love to experiment as well I would like to suggest the following:
E1 Private, E2 Lance Corporal, E3 Corporal, E4 Monitor, E5 Sergeant, E6
Centurion, E7 Sergeant Major, E8 Regimental Sergeant Major(RSM), E9 Sergeant
Major of Sector(SSM), E10 Imperial Sergeant Major(ISM).

Monitor leads a squad;  Sergeant attatched to platoon, Centurion attatched to
Company, Sergeant Major to a battalion, RSM leads regiment, SMoS leads sector
NCOs, ISM is the voice for all NCOs within Marines.

O1 Lieutenant, O2 Senior Lieutenant, O3 Captain, O4 Major, O5 Force
Commander,
O6 Colonel, O7 Brigadier, O8 Major General, O9 Lieutenant General, O10
Colonel General, O11 Star Marshal.

Lieutenant leads a platoon, Captain heads a company, Force Commander heads a
battalion, Colonel commands a regiment, Brigadier commands a brigade(a
regiment plus attatched units, i.e. independant action), Major General
commands a division (although I prefer the name legion), Lieutenant General
commands a corps, Colonel General is the peacetime commander of the Marines,
Star Marshal is the wartime commandant of the Marines(after requisite
inflation in the size of the Corps).

Hope y'all like these one's.

Scott Quigg "XatoKuom@aol.com"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:37:01 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: resources

Bob Sanders wrote:
>I would look into both a CD as a resource,


Yes please.  Can I heartily agree that this would be worth doing.


>and a simple two color short
>run resource guide for non-computer people.

I'm not certain I'm interpreting what you mean correctly, but if this is
what I *think* you mean - look for it soon.

I'm hoping that BITS will (at last!) publish my Traveller Bibliography at
Euro Gen Con at the end of August.

If so, you will be able to buy - in one handy volume - details of every
Traveller item ever published with information as to how it fits into the
scheme of things as well as loads of other facts and figures no discerning
Traveller would be without. <ok, so I'm biased!>

Even I'm looking forward to it as my rough drafts are invaluable for
reference!

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:34:47 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

- -> Scan every page as an image.
Easy, but not quite satisfactory.
- -> Scan every page and convert to text.
- -> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
- -> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
- -> material.
- -> Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
This of course would be the ideal situation, but is probable too 
expensive.

How about making it available in Adobe Acrobat .pdf format?
You could scan it and let Acrobat do the rest (afaik) 
 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:01:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor races

> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races
> 
>>  We've been discussing the possibility for some time that *all* the human
>>  races copied the J-Drive from Ancient artifacts.  Of course, the truth is
>>  buried in time, or shallow graves to hear our conspircey theorists tell it. 
> 
> That's a favorite topic of mine as well.
> 
> Marc

Woo-hoo! Me too! This one has _lots_ of really good, vague, yet
obvious-when-you-read-between-the-lines kind of evidence.
That and Hivers starting the Rebellion.

My new theory on jumpspace: Gradnfather wanted to collect a lot
of energy... so he designed a device that allows you to travel
FTL, but sucks up a lot of energy... and dumps it into a "energy sink"
universe that provides all the energy for his own "real" toys.
The first multi-level marketing scheme.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 18:25 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Bounties, and the hunting thereof

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970726152915.227f6b02@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> In NA, bounty hunters are private citizens who usually work for bail
> bondsmen.  They are not licensed, nor do they have any authority beyond
> that of a private citizen.  They simply have the skills to track down bail
> jumpers.
>  
> In the Imperium, a local jurisdiction might publish a wanted list as a
> matter of public record, complete with rewards offered.  A bounty hunter
> would then be on his own tracking down the fugitive.  If the bounty hunter
> breaks the law on whatever planet he's on, he may find himself being hunted.

That's the way I'd do it.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:08:13 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

At 12:22 AM 7/28/97 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-27 17:37:44 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
>   Wouldn't a small run be much more economical on CD-ROM, whether it
> was intended for regular retail or strictly pre-order/mail-order only?
>  >>
>I would love to see a complete GDW CT and MT (and even TNE) on CD ROM. That
>certainly will be a topic of discussion when we get to that point.

At the same time, please consider giving Roger Sanger permission to reprint
the old Traveller's Digest issues, and perhaps other DGP supplements.  The
old Traveller books had some really neat stuff in them, and having a select
portion of them available would add another several dozen books worth of
info to the Traveller line with far less effort than writing new stuff.

Game stores will often shelve according to when they last got new stuff, so
any "new" thing that comes out for T4 will sell the things that are already
in print.  According to Gamesmanship, they figure that a new item will
usually sell at least one old item.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 18:24 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

In-Reply-To: <970726092034_162550046@emout14.mail.aol.com>

> Masquerade (Rogue). A Rogue may masquerade as an individual in a different
> profession. After the first term as a Rogue, he or she may select any other
> career or service and resolve up to 5 terms in that service in place of
> Rogue. Failure of Continuance while in Masquerade forces a return to Rogue.
> The final term for a Rogue must be as a Rogue.

Why the last bit? Why can't a Rogue enter the game pretending to be someone 
else?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 18:25 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: An Officer and a Gentleman

Here's an idea I've had bouncing around for a while: should officer 
ranks have an associated minimum Social Standing? Is it reasonable for 
the Grand Admiral of the Fleet to have a Soc of 1?

There are two ways of looking at this. First, in society as 
class-conscious as the Imperium[1], a scummy little Soc-1 peasant will 
have a much harder time getting promotions than a Soc-10 gentleman, who 
plays golf with the Baron every other weekend. From this point of view, 
you can be promoted as long as your Soc is >= the minimum for the rank. 
If you receive a further promotion, you get a +1 Soc instead. Next 
time, since your Soc has increased, you may be promoted.

The alternative way of looking at it is that the Soc increase is a 
normal side-effect of the promotion - a higher rank means better pay, a 
better standard of living, and more respect from those around you. In 
this case, if your Soc is too low, you receive a +1 Soc in addition to 
the promotion.

My suggested limits are Soc = N+4, where N is the officer rank 
number[2]. 

Navy example:

O1 Ensign          5
O2 SubLieutenant   6
O3 Lieutenant      7
O4 Lieutenant Cdr  8
O5 Commander       9
O6 Captain         A
O7 Rear Admiral    B (Knight)
O8 Vice Admiral    C (Baron)
O9 Admiral         D (Count)

[1]Is it? It has an active Nobility, plus Soc is one of the characters 
defining characteristics, so the evidence is yes. 

[2]Yes, this raises high-ranking officers to the Nobility. This feels 
right to me. Real World example? I can't find a single British officer 
above O6-equivalent who isn't either a Knight or a Lord.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1616
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, July 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1617



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Roswell
RE: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Genetics in Traveller
IG 'sales' address
T4.1 Character Generation
Deep Space Stations (and Planet X)
Possibly a silly idea...
Cybernetics in T4
Re:
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re:
Re: PCs and nobles
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
New T4 books I'd like to see
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Re: Genetics in Traveller
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:49:40 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB

>> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:00:13 -0700
>> From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
>>
>> >It appears that we have a consensus on doing the TL-10 System Defense Boat
>> >(SDB) for the August THUDDD, so that's now the official choice.  Now, does
>> >a size range of 500-800 tons make sense to everyone, or should it be
>> >narrower, broader, higher, lower, or some combination of these?
>>
>> I'd like to see the upper limit set at a good round 1000 tons;
>Many people are suggesting that we use a fixed budget, a la Trillion
>Credit Squadron, and let people build N of whatever design they want with
>that money.  The problem is that I want to design one ship per THUDDD, and
>the TCS model calls for an integrated fleet -- it's not a choice between
>200 and 1000 ton vessels, but rather possibly some of each, and comparing
>just these two would be an apples-and-oranges proposition.

I do not want to see TCS. I do think that the design parameters should
include a sentance "Total Cost should not exceed MCr. XXX.XX per unit."

It's like when the Navy (or AF) has a fighter design contest.  *They* have
the role developed, the designers need to fit the requirements...including
budgetary.  If the design comes in under budget, hooray for the designer,
but its competing against over budget but more capable designs.

The SDB needs to be "small, cheap, with a 30+ day endurance, and
deployable/effective in numbers against an invading fleet."  I would use
the CT SDB as a guide for cost limitations and mission parameters.  The
SDB, by the way, is *not* a revenue cutter, although it will serve as such
in a pinch.  The SDB should be a dedicated defensive vessel.

Incidentially, my favorite "SDB" is the 10-15kton "Battle Rider" type
design, with the biggest spinal mount it can carry, just enough other
weapons and defenses to get her in range, and manuvering characteristics of
a fighter.  Now *that's* the way to defend a system.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:49:45 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

At 05:23 PM 7/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Andrew Boulton wrote:

>> An updated Mercenary/Striker would be nice, with TO&E for different
>> cultures and TLs (what is standard equipment for an Imperial Marine?
>> What is a TL4 army likely to be armed with?) and a mass combat system.
>
>Agreed.  (Although I don't know what TO&E is).

Table of Organization & Equipment.  A diagram showing how a unit is
organized, along with a listing of all its authorized equipment, down to
the last hammer.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:53:52 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Roswell

At 11:03 AM 7/28/97 +0100, Nick wrote:

>On a visit to the FBI museum, my g/f Catharine[*] asked about X-files 
>and the FBI guide said, rather wearily, that they didn't exist.  So 
>shurely they must? 8-)
>
>[*] The only person I know who's tried whistling "Yankee Doodle" in a 
>crowded bar in Atlanta.

<GRIN>  My buddies and I went to a bar just outside Atlanta and bought a
couple of rounds for the house.. real redneck place.. after the third
round, the bartender asked us what we were celebrating.

"Why, General Sherman's birthday!"

I think they chased us about 10 miles...
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:34:35 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Alternate Marine Ranks

At 08:41 AM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I thought the term Force Commander was used instead of Captain to avoid 
>confusion with Naval Captain's.

That's the way it is now.  I tried to get the ranks to match up between the
Navy and Marines to cut down on the confusion.  If you are a Navy rating,
and told to go find Capt. Nelson, you won't be confused when the officer in
question is wearing LTs pips.  Also, I just like the sound of "Force
Lieutenant Van Rijn, reporting as ordered."

>Besides being formerly of the US Army I use US Military Ranks across the 
>board, most of the players can identify with them and they add more flavor 
>(Most players play Military Characters in my games)

I'm a former grunt myself, but this adds a little bit of flavor.  These are
just suggestions, feel free to use, modify or ignore as you wish.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:01:06 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

At 12:21 AM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-27 21:47:38 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
> Since I meddle constantly... these are a suggestion to get away from the US
> based ranks for the Imperial Marine Force.  

> E-8  Ship's Sergeant  (S/SGT)
>      Master Gunner   (M/G)
> E-9  Fleet Sergeant  (F/SGT)
>      Command Fleet Sergeant (CF/SGT)
>      Master Fleet Sergeant  (MF/SGT)
>
>comment: For E9, Command and Master are positions rather than ranks (ie, you
>get them only if you are in a specific position). In the US Army, Platoon
>Sergeant is also E7 (but only applies if the guy is in a Plateoon Sergeant
>position), and ditto for E8 First Sergeant.

True, I was just being a completeness fanatic here.. if you do decide to
use this, just the generic Ship and Fleet Sergeant designations would be
needed; the extended ranks could go into whatever military expansion is
planned.

>Comnment: there is a certain logic to the prefix :"force" for O1 to O4. I'll
>look at it.
>
>Marc

<GRIN>

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:27:24 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Genetics in Traveller

<< 
   But I am curious, what is the Traveller Tech Level needed to make this
 "Jurassic Park" (the Jurassic is the early Mesozoic)? >>

It is possible that the "dinos" aren't genetic copies of actual
dinosaurs, but genetically engineered present day lizards which mearly
look like dinosaurs.  
If this is easier than finding and cloning Dinosaur DNA depends on the
details of genetic engineering.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is round and dangerous?  
A:A vicious circle.            

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:41:41 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: IG 'sales' address

Hi,

I've been having some trouble getting in contact with IG via their
'sales' and other addresses.  The 'sales' address messages are bounced
backt o me, and I haven't got responss from the others.  I'm trying to
ask for some information on ordering T4.1, so if anyone knows what's
going on, I'd appreciate it.

Actually, if someone here can answer my questions, I was wondering how
much delivery of T41 to Canada is, and when I could expect it to arrive.

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:50:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: T4.1 Character Generation

Marc,

I started to use the above system today, and generated a merchant
character. This threw up two questions:

1) Why does it get easier to get promoted as you move up the ranks? (I
assume that a positive DM increases the target number eg 7- becomes 9-). I
would have thought that it would become progressively harder to get
promoted as you moved up the structure, but I've never served in the
merchant navy to comment from strength.

2) How do you roll the '7' to get a free-trader? The text on MO benefits
doesn't appear to explain, and merchant specific text also seems to miss
this out.

It was interesting to see that the highest possible skill I could have got
after 4 terms and an ED8 was Business-6 (which I actually split evenly...).
That was using random generation of skills as well...

I like what I've seen of the rewrite so far...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:10:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Deep Space Stations (and Planet X)

The following is grossly in character, but with some gaming applications thrown in.
and now w/o further ado...I present to you The Commander.

bprankard goes behind a green curtain, suddenly there is a loss of power 
akin to a 'jump dim' and a man dressed in a black military uniform appears, 
you know immediately that this is the infamous Commander X!

Greetings fellow sentients!

This thread on deep space staions intreage me, for obvious reasons. 
 Although it is not published, and therefore not canon (gasp, am I mearly a 
figment of someones overactive imagination, it can't be!) Planet X as it is 
commonly refered to is indeed a refurbished military deep space garrison.

How did I manage this, first of all being a noble helped out.  Being able to 
put a high stake on such a project don't come cheap.  The next thing I did 
was make sure the station was in a good location, it just so happens that 
Planet X connects the Sylean Main with the Zimiin Cluster, much to Josph 
Callifor's (Founder Shipworks, Co-Founder of ISBA) delight!  Being at a J-1 
nexus means trade, big trade, and big bucks. Since there are no resources in 
deep space (I don't care what you read in the popular fiction, comets and 
rogue planetoids as few and far between in deep space!) trade is an absolute 
neccesity, everything must be imported.

For import, you need something to export to pay for everything, thats where 
the shipbuilding industry comes in.  Military contracting seemed the best 
approach, even with the Zhunastu Corporation as a competitor.  An agreement 
was reached, Zhunastu Industries would research basic energy production and 
propulsion, and my company would use existing technology and produce new 
experimental military tactics and weapons.  Thus the name X-TEK, which 
originaly ment, eXperinental TEKnologies group. (Pay attention, this is a 
trivia question on Imperial Jeopardy!)

Military Contracting was a start, but the people who would soon visit the 
'floating starport' would want to buy more than just starships, and not 
eveyone can buy military hardware.  So diversification came into effect. 
 From experimental military hardware came civilian applications.  Sensors 
and optic systems, communications and personal saftey equipment.  Grav 
Vehicles have become a very popular sell.

It is obvious that the government of such a station would be corporate, 
after all it is a starport.  Eveyone who lives there is a corporate 
employee.  Mind you I run my business like a well oiled machine, or a naval 
ship.  Can't keep an old Sol Naval man from his leadership training! :)

Now I noticed there were concerns of navigation, a station isnt going to be 
big enough to have its own gravity well.  You are going to need nav bouys, 
evenly spaced out, and broadcasting a frequency and common comm ranged to 
direct the flow of traffic.  Even though you publidh and broadcast exact 
co-ordinates to your base, even the best nav can't zero in all the time. 
 and since there is nothing to nav by in deep space, you need artificial 
landmarks.  A Spacial Positioning System (SPS) if you will.

To recap, how do I do it?  First make sure you got the creds(and the guts!) 
do begin such an endevour.  Second, build your station in a deep space 
location where it is on a main, or better yet connects 2 mains into one. 
 Thirdly, keep in mind that this is a starport and as such business is your 
main concern, if you're military then don't wory, the tax credits will pay 
for it! :)  As a business you need a commodity, in my case the station is a 
shipyard and starport.  Also make sure people can nav to your station, it 
awfuly dark out there. Last but not least, cater to everybody!  You WILL 
need the extra credits!

Thank you for leting me discuss deep space stations on this forum.  If I 
manage to keep at least one young upstart from making little more than a 
deep space 'mom & pop' operation (refuling and gift shop, in IISS terms a 
Class D Starport, in ancient Solomani a 'tourist trap!')  and reeking 
finacial ruin, so much the better.

My work here is done, for now.  Now where did I put those insanely delicious 
cookies...

The lights fade to black, The Commander is gone, replaced by the guy from 
behind the curtain.

Thats the show, hope you enjoyed it.  And remeber you get 5cr off of 'Purest 
Green' at Callahan's Irish-Vilani Pub and Grill with your ticket stub.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:31:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Possibly a silly idea...

People a while ago were complaining at a lack of 'human input' in THUDDD.
Craig responded with the 'literary THUDDD' aka the noble's yacht. However,
this didn't seem to get as big a response..

As an idea, why don't we run a parallel to THUDDD where people design
characters (more importantly their background) to crew a THUDDD winner? Or
is that a stupid idea?

It would give a nice set of NPCs to use in an encounter with a ship from
the design sequence...

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:06:18 -0700
From: Scott Foster <scottfo@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Cybernetics in T4

Does anyone have any info on cybernetics/bionics/genetic enhancement
(similar to Cyberpunk or Shadowrun) for T4?

Scott

knyghte@msn.com
ShadowBlinder, TruthFinder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:04 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re:

In-Reply-To: <33DBC342.7121@alaska.net>

Peter,

> > > Commission roll is optional.  If a character doesn't want to go to 
> > > OCS then he doesn't apply.
>  
> > But why would anyone *not* want to go? Officers get an extra m/o roll > and an extra skill per term.
>  
> What if your charecter conception is that the charecter was an enlisted
> person and not an officer ?

Well, yeah, okay, you can pick whatever numbers you like if you know what you want 
when you start, but if you're rolling it up randomly you're nearly always going to
end up with an officer.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:04 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

In-Reply-To: <33DBCA5C.C5919B5E@bu.edu>

Steve,

> > CT had a book for most careers, and that worked pretty well.
>  
> Yes it did.  As I pointed out at the end of my post, I'd support this if
> the books were kept small and inexpensive, as they were in CT.  What I
> fear though is the US$22 perfect-bound, gloosy-covered book that is
> filled with lots of useless drivel because the financial types want to
> keep the price-point up.  Keep the books small and efficient and in the
> US$10 range and I'll but 'em.

On one hand, you could say books 4-7 were small and cheap. On the other, 
you could say they were priced consistently with the rest of the rules.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:04 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In-Reply-To: <33DBEB97.3ACC@siscom.net>

Harold,

> Any new version of the Imperial Encyclopedia would likely reflect
> reality as Marc Miller's Traveller sees it, not the reality presented in
> the original work.

So far, I don't think I've seen Marc himself comment on this subject. If 
you're reading this, what is going on?

1. Any changes to established canon are intentional. They may continue to 
appear.
2. Any changes to established canon are accidental, but are now carved in 
stone. 
3. Any changes to established canon are accidental, and should be ignored.

Are you making it up as you go along, or are you trying to stick to 
Traveller As We Know It?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:14 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re:

In-Reply-To: <33DBC342.7121@alaska.net>

Peter,

> > > Commission roll is optional.  If a character doesn't want to go to 
> > > OCS then he doesn't apply.
>  
> > But why would anyone *not* want to go? Officers get an extra m/o roll > and an extra skill per term.
>  
> What if your charecter conception is that the charecter was an enlisted
> person and not an officer ?

Well, yeah, okay, you can pick whatever numbers you like if you know what you want 
when you start, but if you're rolling it up randomly you're nearly always going to
end up with an officer.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:14 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: PCs and nobles

In-Reply-To: <33DBCA5C.C5919B5E@bu.edu>

Steve,

> > CT had a book for most careers, and that worked pretty well.
>  
> Yes it did.  As I pointed out at the end of my post, I'd support this if
> the books were kept small and inexpensive, as they were in CT.  What I
> fear though is the US$22 perfect-bound, gloosy-covered book that is
> filled with lots of useless drivel because the financial types want to
> keep the price-point up.  Keep the books small and efficient and in the
> US$10 range and I'll but 'em.

On one hand, you could say books 4-7 were small and cheap. On the other, 
you could say they were priced consistently with the rest of the rules.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:14 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In-Reply-To: <33DBEB97.3ACC@siscom.net>

Harold,

> Any new version of the Imperial Encyclopedia would likely reflect
> reality as Marc Miller's Traveller sees it, not the reality presented in
> the original work.

So far, I don't think I've seen Marc himself comment on this subject. If 
you're reading this, what is going on?

1. Any changes to established canon are intentional. They may continue to 
appear.
2. Any changes to established canon are accidental, but are now carved in 
stone. 
3. Any changes to established canon are accidental, and should be ignored.

Are you making it up as you go along, or are you trying to stick to 
Traveller As We Know It?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:44:30 -0700
From: Scott Foster <scottfo@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: New T4 books I'd like to see

1) An indepth Tech book, covering medicine, propulsion, energy sources,
modes of transport, computers, bionics, cybernetics, genetics,
forcefields, matter transporters, etc (Similar but more indepth than
Gurps Ultratech.)


2) Imperium Sourcebook.  Detailing the different levels of arms of the
government (Ministry of Justice, Navy, Scouts) etc

Scott
knyghte@msn.com
ShadowBlinder, TruthFinder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney) wrote:

> A question.  If we (Terra/Third Imperium) managed to find a dinosaurod
> cell that was viable, and we placed it in an ostrich egg, is that good
> enough to give us the equivalent dinosaur from the one cell, despite a
> non-sauroid egg as host?

I'm not sure anyone knows at this time.  Perhaps, perhaps not.  Largely,
this will depend on just how closely birds and dinosaurs are related.

> Second question.  If we can do this with dinosaurs at TL14, what is
> different from doing the total rejuvenation at TL21?  I can imagine a
> good cloned body, with no RNA, but that is just TL20 total memory
> transfer, right?  So why do we have to wait to TL21 for total rejuv.?

What do dino-geneering and rejuvenation have to do with each other? In the
first case you recreate an organism from DNA fragments, or possibly create
a critter which looks much like a dinosaur from lizard & bird DNA. 
Rejuvenation is putting a living person in a vat and making them younger. 
Modifying an adult living being directly is a whole lot harder than
genetically engineering an egg cell. 

Also, total memory transfer involves electronically recording personality
and memories and replaying them into a new, young, body.  This is a whole
lot better than cloning and body and doing a brain transplant.  With the
option you are suggesting (cloning and brain transplant) you get a nice
young body and an old brain. I'd rule that you would still make Int aging
rolls based of the age of the old body.  With total memory transfer you
get a new, young, body and a new, young, brain.  You could even end up
transferred into an alien body. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:16:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller

Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net> write:

> Perhaps it should read something like this:

> TL 19 Genetics - "Advanced bioengineering is developed, allowing
> non-sentient living organisms to be directly manipulated into variant
> lifeforms.  The process is instituted in a normal lifeform, and takes
> several generations to manifest itself fully."

> This would lower the power of the genetics to effect only non-sentient
> creatures, so that nothing on the scale of the Ancient large-scale
> manipulation of huamsn can be done.  Also, by adding the 'takes 
> several generations' it is not a 'drop it in a vat' scenario.  Comments?

Why would we ever want to do that?  This has been clearly defined as fully
within the range of TL 14 genetic engineering.  The Solomani have uplifted
several species, just like the Ancients did.  Heck, the 3I genetically
engineered humans into several radically different forms (See DGP's TD #
12 & GDWs adventure Knightfall for examples). Hopefully, you are not
suggesting the 2nd Imperium reached TL 19. 

Just because the Ancients did something doesn't mean it *has* to be TL
19+.  The Ancients had genetic engineering which they used to modify
humans and create the Vargr.  The 3I could do the same thing, but they
have laws about modifying sentients.  The Ancients also had TL 19 advanced
bioengineering devices like vats where you could walk in human and walk
out a Vargr.  Such things seem like perfectly reasonable Ancient tech. 
Why would we want to limit Advanced bioengineering to be less powerful
than TL 14 genetic engineering.  My only question is that with current
advances in RW biotechnology I'm wondering why it takes the #I until TL 14
to learn how to do genetic engineering, this seems more likely to be
developed at TL 11 or 12.  I *like* the "drop in a vat" option for TL 19. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:23:35 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

At 11:18 AM 7/28/97 -0400, Scott wrote:

>O1 Lieutenant, O2 Senior Lieutenant, O3 Captain, O4 Major, O5 Force
>Commander,
>O6 Colonel, O7 Brigadier, O8 Major General, O9 Lieutenant General, O10
>Colonel General, O11 Star Marshal.

I'm trying to get away from the rank of Captain in the Marines.  Since the
main role of the Imperial Marine Force is to serve as shipboard troops, why
have a rank that mirrors a far more senior Naval rank?

By making the first three levels of officer ranks almost identical in name
between the Navy and Marines, you increase understanding of where you stand
in relation to the other guy.  A Navy Lieutenant will know that he is
outranked by the Senior Force Lieutenant across the room, while their might
be som,e confusion if a Marine Lieutenant (O-1) were intoduced to a Navy
Lieutenant (O-2) while in civies.  (This actually happened to me, I was
assigned to escort a Captain wearing civies.. I found out later he was a US
Navy Captain.. it does affect how you treat people!)

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:18:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question

> From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> 
> Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. postulated:
> >>
> >> And now, a Traveller trivia question:
> >>
> > The Droyne more than dabbled in psionics long before the Zhodani. 
 
> Ah, but the key word is "dabbled". I considered stating the question as
> "this humaniti race" but thought that might give it away. The race I was
> thinking of is...the Darrians! For those of you who have the AM #8,
> check out the advanced Navy character generation skill charts near the
> back of the supplement. Skill #4 under "Special Arm" is Telepathy.

That's very good -- the Darrians were certainly dabblers in psionics,
but it's not as mainstream, routine, and dominant in their culture as in
that of the Zhodani and Droyne.

> I never understood why the Zhodani didn't subvert the Darrians to gain
> access to the remnant TL16 technology even though they must have

In my universe -- and probably in the canon -- the Darrian subsector is
one of the real hotbeds of spy vs. spy activity between Zhodani and
Imperial agents, lobbyists, agents provocateurs, contract hit sophonts,
etc., and it has been for a very long time.  The Darrians of course have
peepers in high places, so only the most sincere (or brainwashed)
diplomats are worth sending.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1617
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, July 28 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1618



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Law and Justice in the Third Imperium (was PCs and nobles)
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Library
Cannon
Genetics
Bounty
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman
Re: New T4 books I'd like to see
Eneri the Eighth (was Grandfather Elvis)
Re: FBI in 3I
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Major/Minor Races
Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.
Re: Roswell
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1616
Re: Deep Space Depots, Career Books, World Design Book

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:28:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Law and Justice in the Third Imperium (was PCs and nobles)

> From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: PCs and nobles
> 
 
> Personally, I'd like to see more background material on Imperial law,
> Imperial courts, punishment, etc. The last few posts dealing with
> bounty hunters, et al piqued my interest (I kicked butt in the MT2
> computer game). After all, these are the things that can affect an
> adventure the most. ;-)

I posted my thoughts on law and justice in the Third Imperium (ca.
1100s) in several long posts quite some time ago (last fall?).  I don't
recall in which digest numbers they appear, but I think that it was
during a more general discussion of feudal technocracy and the political
economy of the Imperium.  The posts were fairly well received and you
can probably find them in the digest archive.  If I have time I'll try
to find them in my files, but I won't repost them.  

Marc is welcome to use them in published materials as long as I'm listed
as a contributor or author.  

> protocols, the M0 equivalent of the Internet, yadayadayada...

MO equivalent of the Internet doesn't exist because there's no FTL
communications.  Each member state of high enough technology level has
some sort of internet.  The X-Boat system must be able to feed into and
from that system where it exists, so there has to be some standardization.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:54:39 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

> From: CardSharks@aol.com

> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
> 
> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
> material. Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
> 
> Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
> 
> Comments?

I have to admit that I'm sufficiently sad (in the British sense of the 
word ;-) that I'd buy whatever version you came up with, pretty much 
regardless of the cost. (Who? Me? Fanboy? ;-)

What I'd probably do with the material - unless it was done for me - 
would be to point a Glimpse (or similar search engine) at it so as to 
be able to *find* the stuff I need in the text mass. So, plaintext or 
html is what I'd like most. Html has the added benefit that it'd be 
able to retain at least some of the formatting. Of course, I don't know 
if any OCR programs support it natively.

Either way, even though OCR programs are better these days than when I 
last used one, at least minimal editing/proofreading is neccessary. A 
bare minimum would be running a spell checker over the text. (And 
*geez* would that be a chore, what with all the Zhodani, Vilani, etc, 
words in the text. ;-)

One thought could be to offer an 'amnesty' for those who have already 
done some of the work, ahem, 'privately', for their own campaigns, if 
they sent in the scanned files they have. Or outright ask for help from 
traveller fans with scanners. It worked reasonably well for SJG when 
they wanted to put up issues of Roleplayer and ADQ on the web.

Oh, one final thought before I hit the sack, I'd definitely want the 
TASJ and Challenge articles on the CD as well. While I have most 
issues, it'd be *real* handy to have them on the web. (Actually I'd 
want the Twilight:2000 articles as well, but that's another topic. ;-)
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 02:24:36 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Library

> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 12:24 BST-1
> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?
> 
> In-Reply-To: <v01540a00affd502acba7@[198.70.218.37]>
> 
> I *really want* T4 to be Traveller.
> 
> IMHO, what we need ASAP is a M0 edition of the Imperial Encyclopedia. 
> This would be a vital aid to consistency for both new players/refs *and 
> new writers.*

Ditto.
 The Library data I've seen so far has been recycled M1100. With Some new.

Evyn
- -- 

Sig deleted for space.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:38:50 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Cannon

> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:57:05 -0600
> From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
> Subject: Cannon?!? (was Re: Planning for Traveller Design)
> 
Stuff Snipped do to lack of Intrest!!!
> 
> It seems to me that the big flaw of canonism is that it is also dependent
> upon rules interpretation, which is not always consistent among people
> discussing _any_ game.

Yes, I can argue either side of this subject.

> You know, I think I now understand why _nobody_ (except Harold in one
> note on another subject), ever responded to my "What is Canon?" thread.
> I also think that were lurkers to decide to risk having their opinions
> known (and toasted, and I don't mean the kind with wineglasses), we could
> identify a myriad of canon frames of reference, in the Einsteinian sense.

Nothing and all, This arguement has gone on for the 31/2 years I've been
here, and doesn't look like its going to die any time soon.

> Thoughts?

Yes, instead of whinning whos piont is right.
Why not sit down and hammer out some ROUGH guidelines.
Starting with Imperial history and then the true story.
(Y'all know, PC and true history)
Then we can kludge most of the rest after that.

> (And now for some humor for the troops in the trenches.)
> 
> I'm beginning to feel more and more like canon is the bad tasting meal
> you are obliged to eat when visiting a friend's house. :)

Yep, Along with that selective memory thing.

Evyn
- -- 

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear.

But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

		Legionnaire Alan Seeger
		KIA the Somme
		AD 1916

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 03:26:37 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Genetics

> 
> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:58:17 -0600
> From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
> Subject: Re: Genetics in Traveller
> 

Way Big snip.

> >This would definitively place the technology used on Carl's World
> >between 14 and 19, probably at the lower end.  Please note that the
> >Jonkereen also fall into this category.

TNE incicates the base for genetics being closer to TL 10 so I would 
call the range between 12 and 15. IMNSHO
 
> A question.  If we (Terra/Third Imperium) managed to find a dinosaurod
> cell that was viable, and we placed it in an ostrich egg, is that good
> enough to give us the equivalent dinosaur from the one cell, despite a
> non-sauroid egg as host?

Off the bat, No.
 
> Second question.  If we can do this with dinosaurs at TL14, what is
> different from doing the total rejuvenation at TL21?  I can imagine a
> good cloned body, with no RNA, but that is just TL20 total memory
> transfer, right?  So why do we have to wait to TL21 for total rejuv.?

I Think one of the Journels had this starting at about TL 14-15ish
Have to dig to find the it thou.

> >IMO, the geneering techniques required to re-engineer sauropods and 
> >such from mosquito spit is probably about 14.  this is consistent with 
> >the premise that the RoM enjoyed highly advanced biomedical technology,
> >if the project occured then
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree here.  I just want to follow through on all
> reasoning before I make up my mind on claims made here.

My Take too.

Evyn

- -- 

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear.

But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

		Legionnaire Alan Seeger
		KIA the Somme
		AD 1916

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 02:49:29 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Bounty

> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:29:15 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> Then you'd have the MoJ treading on the rights of the world. "What do you
> mean not valid?!  He WALKED ON THE GRASS!!!  That's a major FELONY here!!"
> 
> Picture what would happen at the other end of things also.. "He's wanted
> for walking on the grass?  That's not a crime!  Let him go, or I'll arrest
> you for kidnapping!  I don't care about your Imperial Bounty Hunter
> License, this isn't the starport, you follow *our* laws here!"

Yep, I fired that one off rather quickly.
I don't even agree and I wrote it.

Here is a Change on my origenal Idea.

The imperium establishs certain crimes as Imperial. Piracy, Treason, 
Murder 1, (including mass etc.) Etc.
Only these few Crimes and no other.

These Warrents are served by agents working for a Imperal agency, with
acompaning documentation, ie. a Imp. weapons permit, etc.

> >>    Interesting Topic.  I think you'd have 2 types of bounty hunters -
> >> Imperially licensed and non-licensed because you'd have two types of
> >> fugitives: fugitives from Imperial law and fugitives from member world
> >> law.
> >
> >Probably not, just Imp. Licensed acting on a MoJ Warrent. A non-Licensed
> >Hunter would tread all over the member worlds soverinty. Out side the
> >Imperium this would not be a problem, inside one big hassle.
> 
> Once again, if the Imperium is licensing these guys, they are basically
> saying "go forth, and do what you have to."

Yep, as a agent of the Imperium.

> In NA, bounty hunters are private citizens who usually work for bail
> bondsmen.  They are not licensed, nor do they have any authority beyond
> that of a private citizen.  They simply have the skills to track down bail
> jumpers.

Yes and no, in most states the conntract between the Bondsman and the
client severly curtails the clients civil rights. The Bounty hunter
does not have as many limitations as a Cop would in apperhendind the
jumper. (thou escalation of force is a good line to follow)
Also the relationship is intresting in the fact that it is a Civil and
not a Crimmenal.

> In the Imperium, a local jurisdiction might publish a wanted list as a
> matter of public record, complete with rewards offered.  A bounty hunter
> would then be on his own tracking down the fugitive.  If the bounty hunter
> breaks the law on whatever planet he's on, he may find himself being hunted.
> 
> >> Imperial warrants would issue (or an Imperial bounty would be available
> >> for) fugitives from imperial law.  
> 
> For Imperial fugitives, the Navy/scouts would be able to control the choke
> points (starports) fairly well.  They just inform the locals that fritz the
> Unwashed is on their world, as is wanted by His Majesty's Government.

How about the SPA instead?

> >> These are probably laws that either
> >> interfere directly with the Arms of the Imperium (its agencies, etc.) or
> >> that interfere with the Laws of Imperial Space (piracy, etc.).  I think
> >> only an Imperially-licensed bounty hunter should be able to collect
> >> rewards on these fugitives.  
> >
> >No, a bounty would apply to any person who captures said fugitives.
> 
> Exactly.  If Fred the Pirate attempts to hijack me, and I knock him cold,
> I'm going to want that MCr.3 reward money!

Yep,

> >> This license should give some protection
> >> from or immunity to member world laws that might interfere with capture
> >> of the fugitive, at least to whatever extent is "reasonably necessary to
> >> effectuate capture."  [Can you tell I'm a law student?] :-P
> >
> >Yes a Imperial License would allow more lattude in such things
> >as weapon restrictions. And give the holder a legal standing, in cases
> >were the local goverment were to become involved. (As I said before
> >reasonable force, as for being a law student anyone who is involved
> >in Law Enforcment has had this beat in to their heads)
> 
> But Imperial authority doesn't go past the starport gate.  Much in the same
> way the FBI has to be invited to take part in most cases, the Imperium
> cannot run roughshod over its allegedily sovergn members.

Yes, but certain crimes can all be considered offenses against the
Imperium,
and these are the ones a warrent would be issued.

Any Ideas on which crimes exactly?

Evyn
- -- 

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear.

But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

		Legionnaire Alan Seeger
		KIA the Somme
		AD 1916

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:35:15 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

> Here's an idea I've had bouncing around for a while: should officer
> ranks have an associated minimum Social Standing? Is it reasonable for
> the Grand Admiral of the Fleet to have a Soc of 1?

I agree with this in principle, but think it should be possible, albeit
unlikely for a character of low social standing to make Grand Admiral. 
People have done it, risne through the ranks and thus it should be
possible.

Perhaps the Navy and Army should have DMs for promotion according to
social standing as the Marines do (in T4.1):

ie.

Navy promotion: 9- DM +1 if Edu 9+
                   DM +1 per social standing over A
Army promotion: 9- DM +1 if Edu 9+
                   DM +1 per social standing over A 

Example:  A 7788AC Naval character attempting to get promoted needs to
roll 9- with DM+3 (+1 for Edu A, +2 for SOC C).

Well?
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The catherdral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commerate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:51:46 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: New T4 books I'd like to see

Scott,

> 1) An indepth Tech book, covering medicine, propulsion, energy
> sources,
> modes of transport, computers, bionics, cybernetics, genetics,
> forcefields, matter transporters, etc (Similar but more indepth than
> Gurps Ultratech.)
> 
> 2) Imperium Sourcebook.  Detailing the different levels of arms of the
> government (Ministry of Justice, Navy, Scouts) etc

Both of these sound like great ideas, but the problem I have, and the
problem I'm having with most of the released T4 materials thus far is
their M0-centric ideas.  I know that the current milieu is M0, but when
they release further milieux are we going to have to buy, say a new
Aliens book (I'm kind of jumping to conclusions, but how M0-centric is
Aliens), or a new whatever.

I think the problem stems from the attempt to write a book
'in-character', like in Emperor's Arsenal.  All the equipment in TLs13+
was 'conjectural', etc. and didn't allow for people to have a full
selection of equipment up to say, TL17.  What I wanted was a textbook
like book of weaponry, instead of the in-character Army field guide we
got.

For some source books which are intended to be used throughout
Traveller's genres, the "in-character" outlook has to be dropped, or at
least changed for each tech level.  For instance, in the upcoming
Emperor's Vehicles, perhaps the chapters up to TL12 would be written in
M0 characters, while above that could be written as if by a M11000 guy. 
This would make us not have to release different versions of the same
book for each Milieu.

Anyhow, more on topic for the subject of new T4 books, I'd like to see
the above ones Scott mentioned, especially the Imperium source book,
which would be very useful, if written well.  Also, as I've said in
other threads, I would love something 'Mercenary'-liked for T4 with Mass
combat, etc.  Perhaps it could be presented either in a book with
pullout cardboard 'troops' an maps (pullout so that it is not necessary
to wrap the book in plastic), or in a small boxed set with plastic
figures and maps.  Besides this, I'd also like to the "Megacorporations
& Syndicates" mentioned elsewhere.

Thanks,
- -- 
________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"The cathedral of St. Basil in Moscow, Russia was built with 8 cupolas
to commemorate the 8 days Ivan the Terrible fought to capture the city
of
Kazan.  To make sure that it's architects never again built so
magnificent
a structure, Ivan deprived them of their eyes, arms, and tongues."
				- Ripley's Believe It or Not!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:37:56 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Eneri the Eighth (was Grandfather Elvis)

> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
 
> "I'm Eneri the Eighth I yam.
> Eneri the Eighth I yam, I yam.
> 
> I just got married to the widow next door.
> She's been married seven times before,
> And every one was an Eneri!"

I thought it was:  "I'm Eneri the Eighth I yam/we've been fighting the
Solomani next door/we've had seven Imperial governors before/and every
one was an Eneri!/I'm Eneri the Eighth I yam!"

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:34:13 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> In my games, the Navy does the actual dirty work of enforcing Imperial Law,
> with the scout security Branch providing an investigative force.  External
> intel is the province of Naval Intellegence working with the Scouts.

This is how I do it, too, and it gives some good opportunities for
inter-service rivalry.  Getting the PCs stuck between the Navy and
Scouts can be a good push.  (E.g., the Navy hires the PCs as independent
contractors to do some investigation that the Scouts perceive as part of
their turf.  The Scouts think that the PCs are a foreign power, a
criminal organization, or Naval personnel exceeding their authority, and
respond appropriately.  This happens on a world far from the
administrative centers.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:10:41 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

>I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
>Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
>else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
>and modules.
>
>The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
>Scan every page as an image.
>Scan every page and convert to text.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>material.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>
>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>
>Comments?

Well, I own about 1/2 of the CT material (you should include at least the
Traveller Journals in that total), a small bit of the MT stuff, and none of the
TNE stuff, so *any* form of representation of the material would be a very
welcome reference source for me. I could easily live with the material in 
the form of .gif files if the resolution is high enough that they are totally 
legible. I especially like the idea presented of scanning them as .pdf files.
This would preserve the form of the material, but make them much easier
to use without much work on IG's part. This is definitely a "nice to have"
type of project rather than a "core of T4" project, so the budget costs
should be kept down. But for those of us who for whom time, financial,
and other constraints did not allow us to get the original material when
it was published, this would be a very nice way of filling in the holes in
our background materials.



**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:08:32 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> -> How about Geshikstries Sternshiffbau AG (sp? = GSbAG).
> That would be Gesichtskreis Sternschiffbau.
> Although it remains a puzzle to me what a Face-Circle is and why it
> builds starships! ;-)
> Ad Astra,
> V.A.G.


Thanks Volker!

How does this translate literally from the German? (it seems to puzzle
you a little)

Geschick = skill
skries = ?
Sternschiff = Starship
bau = Construction

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:28:15 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.

First, I'm reading "The Reality Dysfunction: Part I: the Emergence" by
Peter Hamilton.  I recommend it for hard-sci-fi fans.  It could serve as
a great resource for TL 15-20 finds/artifacts/etc.  But it leads me to a
Traveller Tech Level question:  What TL is Nanotechnology?

Of course, nano-tech is a broad spectrum of things.  So is genetic
engineering.  But how far into the TL8+ spectrum do we really have to
go?  Drexel was talking about nanotech in the 80s.  The Human Genome
Project is well underway.  Just how far do you all the the "if you can
dream it - you can build it" gap is?  3 TLs?  5?

Basically, I'm reading about really cool nanotech and bitek (bio-tech)
ideas in this book and want to incorporate them as high TL artifacts.
(My personal favorite is the "collar" vac suit, which is nothing more
than a metal collar with a globe of plastic attached.  You put it on and
the plastic melts to cover the whole body and protects wearer from
vacuum environment. CO2-powered manuevering jet and AI steering included
:-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:46:40 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Roswell

Nick Munn wrote:

> > > Does anybody still seriously believe in the UFO story?
> >
> > A lot of people think the X Files is a documentary...
>
> ... and allegedly 2% of US citizens think they've been abducted by
> aliens.  (I suspect that what the survey actually shows is 2% of
> Americans fulfil criteria which are consistent with but do not imply
> the standard "abduction story" which is now public folklore anyway.)

Since only 2% of Americans respond to surveys, this means that 100% of
survey respondants claim to have been abducted.  In my experience, that
seems about right.

:-P

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:53:29 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1616

>
>
> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
> Scan every page as an image.

Acceptable, I think most on the list would buy this.

> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>
> material.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

Yeah! Let me know the price and I'll order it now! This is the way to a
Ref's heart. to have all the information available at the click of a
button.

I also noticed that someone mentioned Acrobat as an alternative. This
would be about one step below hypertext on my wish list!

>
>
> Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.

Would volunteers to assist with the scaning, etc. help? How about per
registration for purchases?

> Comments?

Anything that can make this happen is a GOOD THING! Since losing my
originals of MT, and the fact that I never really followed MT, I keep
seeing references to things on this list that I'd love to have. This
would do it all in a format that is ideal when writing and reffing
games! Please! Please! Pretty Please!

(Gee, I wonder if I over reacted?...  8^>  )

>
>
> Marc
>
>

   Mike

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:51:05 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Depots, Career Books, World Design Book

Andy Lilly wrote:

[snip]

> MEGACORPS AND CAREER-SPECIFIC BOOKS
>
> Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> and Peter Miller discussed
> career-specific
> books...
>
> > > But specifically, I could see...
> > > MegaCorporations. Like PE, but building an industrial empire.
> > > Nobles. I know Tim Brown is working on this idea.
> > Basically, I believe that a lot of the careers should have their own
>
> > book for grandeouse (eek! sp?), and larger than single character
> > adventures.
>
> >Better is books on certain topics that may interest/affect multiple
> >character types.  Business: Merchants, Rogues, Nobles, Agents
> >(industrial espionage), Entertainers (consider the size of the
> >entertainment industry);
> >Exploration: Scouts, Scholars, Agents, misc.
> >Large-scale combat (Space and Ground): Navy, Army, Marines, Scouts.
>
> CORE/BITS were intending to bring out a series of such books this
> year.
> However, our efforts have been somewhat diverted towards work for IG,
> hence
> the limited output this year. These books were also suggested to IG in
> our
> product proposal last year and we are currently talking to IG about
> 1998
> products.
>
> >However, I would support a large number of books, if they were
> *Small*
> >and *cheap*. Talking $12 a book per career at most.
>
> This was our intention with the BITS books (which are about 4.50 UKP,
> i.e.
> 6-7$US in the UK, and 36-40 A5 pages). However, our proposals to IG
> were/are
> to amalgamate multiple careers into larger books, to make them cost
> effective.
>
>

[snip]

> Andy

   I like the way you think.  CORE/BITS, huh?  Where do I sign up?

Bloo
(aka Steve)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1618
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1619



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4.1 Character Generation
Re: Major/Minor Races
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1612
CD's - long, sorry
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Professor Davros
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Sector and subsector names
Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question
Re: Bounty
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: Double-Agent
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Galactic v2.3 now available
Random Dates (Reprise)
Re: Deep Space Stations (and Planet X)
New Traveller Page
T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1 Character Generation

In a message dated 97-07-28 18:22:05 EDT, you write:

<< It was interesting to see that the highest possible skill I could have got
 after 4 terms and an ED8 was Business-6 (which I actually split evenly...).
 That was using random generation of skills as well...
  >>

You are working from T4.1.002 (or so). ED8 has become ED4 and Edu equivalents
have been downsized somewhat.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:25:32 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

At 10:56 AM 7/28/97 +0000, Voker wrote:
>-> How about Geshikstries Sternshiffbau AG (sp? = GSbAG). 
>That would be Gesichtskreis Sternschiffbau.
>Although it remains a puzzle to me what a Face-Circle is and why it 
>builds starships! ;-)
>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>-- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
>---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>
>-----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>
>

Corporate Symbol: The little yellow circle containing a idiotically smilling
face and the motto, "don't worry, be happy!"

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:19:33 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1612

Andrew wrote:

> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 21:46 BST-1
> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
>
> In-Reply-To: <33D96B8F.C4762474@Comten.com>
>
> Michael,
>
> > Let's face it looking at what most of us are using now, I don't buy
> the
> > limits on ship board computers for a second. By the 3I I'd expect
> the
> > computers to be able to handle most of the functions on their own.
>
> Totally agree. The only plausible explanation is that people don't
> *trust* computers, or that people are cheaper.
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
>
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>

One of the things I saw as a positive to TNE was... the VIRUS! It
allowed computers artificial intelligence on a level Traveller never
approached before. I began writing the back round for a TNE, (post
virus) campaign that revolved around a "Pocket Empire" that was working
hard to CO-EXIST with the virus. The ship(s) would be characters in
their own right. It seemedd to me that they would provide the perfect
defense against having your ship "inhabitated" out from under you. Kind
of like a vaccine.
Now I know we're talking a big jump in TL, and I'm not trying to start
that kind of debate. I just think that even expert system computers
could be a lot more flexable and powerful than are depicted in CT,MT, or
T4.

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: CD's - long, sorry

>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Scan every page as an image.
.....
>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>
>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>
>Comments?

Hello,
  I begin to realize that not all of this stuff is on somebody's
hard drive. Life before desktop publishing must've been fun.

  I believe the major cost element for producing the actual CD's
is pre-production and computer set-up; the actual CD (with case
and labelling?) should be around $2.00 (at least in the music
industry). I believe the previous poster is in publishing, so
obviously he would possess much more accurate info.

  Of course, the cost of getting material from paper or film
to disk seems to be where the problem is here. I don't know
how much time would be required to properly transfer graphics
or tables, but converting text (scan/OCR/double-check) can be
pretty fast. Re-editing, if necessary, and redoing the formatting
could possibly be the major text manipulation costs.

  I assume the financial barriers to eventually setting this up
would be the higher end tasks such as formatting and mastering
for production. If it were legal I could happily scan/OCR all
my books (except for the thick, bound ones) in about an hour or
two per LBB, but that wouldn't get me the convenience of buying
it in one package (and at far less cash cost than I could earn
in one hour per LBB).

  If all the CT books were on CD, I'd cheerfully pay $50 or 60
bucks for it, or $20/disk for a 3 or 4 disk set - and I already
have all but one LBB. I may be crazy, but I have the money, and
that's the final issue if it does reach production. I suspect
there are enough Traveller fanatics around to justify it from
a business viewpoint, and the margin on mail-order sales would
be quite remarkable (relevant in the reasonable belief that
perhaps most customers for such a product would be those on
this list - at least initially).

  Sorry about the long, and not necessarily useful exposition.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:54:05 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

At 03:05 PM 7/28/97 +0000, Marc wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-28 02:03:19 EDT, Bob Sanders writes:
>
><< Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. >>
>
>I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
>Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
>else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
>and modules.
>
>The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
>Scan every page as an image.
>Scan every page and convert to text.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>material.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>
>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>
>Comments?
>
>Marc
>
>

Scan in the images only; I would be happy with that. Not to mention that
there are packages available for converting images to text. Gives me the
ability to choose the segements I want for my image of the Imperium, and
manipulate the way 
way I want. 

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:02:18 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Professor Davros

At 06:28 PM 7/28/97 +0000, Ethan wrote:
>><snip>
>> 
>
>Funny, I asked Prof. Davros a question just the other day and his only
>reply was "Seek, locate, EXTERMINATE!!!".
>
>Ethan "So I got back in my police box" Henry
>-- 
>ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry
>

Must've made him late for his afternoon tea.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:48:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

In a message dated 97-07-28 14:49:07 EDT, you write:

> I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements,
6
>  Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows
what
>  else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of 
> books
>  and modules.
>  
>  The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>  
>  Scan every page as an image.
>  Scan every page and convert to text.
>  Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>  Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>  material.
>  Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>  
>  Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>  
>  Comments?
>  

Marc,

IMHO, just scan the material into images, then have something like an
autogenned set of HTML pages.  This offers the convenience of going to a
specific page without a great deal of overhead.  Store the images in uniquely
named files and match the images with pages.  Accepting that scanning the
pages is a great deal of manual work, the rest of the process could be fairly
well automated.  Given a standard naming convention, once the images are
scanned and a format is defined, the members of the list could help with the
assembly process (Yes, that means I'm volunteering to help with the HTML)
then forward the results to you for compilation.

My two cents.

Chuck McKnight
cmcknight@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:23:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sector and subsector names

This is a tab delimited text with columns showing sector names and rows for
various languages.

			-9	-8	-7	-6	-5	-4	-3	-2	-1	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
- -6	-9	1 anglic																			
- -6	-9	2 vilani																			
- -6	-9	3 local																			
- -6	-9	4 alt																			
- -5	-9	1 anglic							(Sigma
Zephyrus)								(Spangele)	(Nadir)	(Harbinger)	(Extremus)	
- -5	-9	2 vilani																			
- -5	-9	3 local	Stinj
Tianz	Bliardlie	Zhiensh	Savria	Datsatl	Ianshaplzdier	Thaku
Fung	Rzakki	Listanaya	Veg
Fergakh	Dfotseth	Irugangog	(Finggvakhou)	(Zortakh)					
- -5	-9	4 alt						Gakghang	Zhiaqrqiats												
- -4	-9	1 anglic																			
- -4	-9	2 vilani													(Puragaaku)						
- -4	-9	3 local	Viajlefliez	Bleblqansh	Driasera	Dalchie Jdatl	Chit
Botshti	Anzsidiadl	Zheranzanj	Zao Kfeng Ig Grilokh	Knaeleng	Kharrthon	Oeghz
Vaerrghr	Kfazz
Ghik	(Gzerzarssou)	(Rfigh)	(Tar'G'kell'p)	(Kteex!)	(Koog)	(Xeeleer)	
- -4	-9	4 alt					Ugoede	Ghoekhnael	Ksinanirz						Angfutsag						
- -3	-9	1 anglic												Trenchan							
- -3	-9	2 vilani											Gashikan								
- -3	-9	3
local	Brieplanz	Sidiadi	Zdiedeiant	Stiatlchepr	Itvikiastaf	Tlabrieish	Tazhdapl
	Ngathksirz	Fa Dzaets	Gzaefueg	Lloellerz	Rukhs Dall	Ogzuekhfos	Ogadogorz					
- -3	-9	4 alt					Aerenfors	Khoellighz	Dhuerorrg												
- -2	-9	1 anglic			Zhodane					Provence	Windhorn										
- -2	-9	2 vilani								Amshagi	Kishadikhu	Meshan	Mendan	Amdukan							
- -2	-9	3
local	Pliabriebl	Eiaplial	Zhdant	Tienspevnekr	Ziafrplians	Briakqra'	Dravr	Orra
enang	Gotzdzo	Arzul?	Gotzdzo	Outhofos	Ingukrax	Gn'hk'r	Gur	Un'k!!k'ng	Xaagr	Ee
krookrigz	
- -2	-9	4 alt					Usingou	Gvurrdon	Tuglikki						Arzul	Gelath					
- -1	-9	1 anglic		(Farway)	Splinters	Far Frontiers	Foreven	Spinward
Marches	Deneb	Corridor	Vland	Lishun	Antares	Empty Quarter	Star's End						
- -1	-9	2 vilani			(Horizon's Edge)					Amshagi			Mikasirka	Gushgus							
- -1	-9	3 local	Tsadra
Davr	Tsadra	Yiklerdanzh	Afachtiabr	Iakr	Tloql	Nieklsdia	Llananae
Tourz						Gh!hken	Ruupiin	Raakaan	Uuk	Gnaa Iimb'kr	
- -1	-9	4 alt																			
0	-9	1 anglic		Astron	Fulani	Vanguard Reaches	The Beyond	Trojan Reach	Reft
Sector			Core	Fornast	Ley	Gateway						
0	-9	2
vilani							Sushinar	Gushemege	Dagudashaag	Ukan	Rishurir	Makhuniim							
0	-9	3 local	Chiep
Zhez	Shiants	Chtedria	Telehfaeikh	Lerlairlaii	Hlaoirloahaurl	Bransakral							
Luretiir!girr	X'kug	Kilong	Bar'kakr	Mighabohk	
0	-9	4 alt				Steblenzh	Zhdiakltlatl	Idrflanta													
		1 anglic		Theta Borealis	Theron	Iphegenaia	Touchstone	Riftspan
Reaches	Verge	Ilelish		Massilia	Delphi	Glimmerdrift Reach	Crucis Margin						
		2 vilani									Zarushagar	Masilaa	Manadish Khurem								
		3
local	Mavuzog		Iykhaiser	Kyatulyare	Weasuirlao	Iiyoihakh	Shaakasi							Kaa
G!'kul	Gzirr!k'l	K'trekreer	Nuughe	N!!krumbiix	
		4 alt							Khtiyhkokaeiw												
2	-9	1 anglic								Reaver's Deep	Daibei	Diaspora	Old
Expanses	Hinterworlds	Leonidae	Extolian					
2	-9	2 vilani									Lankhisidam	Nakulakak	Mikadira								
2	-9	3
local	(Harea)	Khaeaw	Faoheiroi'iyhao	Ftaoiyekyu	Afawahisa	Hlakhoi	Ealiyasiyw	A
eitle Sakh						Krurrihkugr	Gnoghikt!	Okteekrul	Nooq	Gzektixk	
2	-9	4 alt																	Hkimbiipam		
3	-9	1 anglic							(Zodia)	Dark Nebula	Magyar	Solomani Rim	Alpha
Crucis	Spica	Phlask	Centrax	Wrenton	Folgore	Avereguar	(Kolire)	
3	-9	2 vilani									Magaar	Kushuggi	Amkarim								
3	-9	3
local	(Tlyasea)	Hkakhaeaw	Esai'yo	Waroatahe	Karleaya	Staihaia'yo	Iwahfuah	I'ah
eako											
3	-9	4 alt																			
4	-9	1 anglic								Ustral
Quadrant	Canopus	Aldebaran	Neworld	Langere	Drakken	Lorspane	Porlock	Kidunal	Tr
eece	(Genfert)	
4	-9	2 vilani																			
4	-9	3
local	(Khuaryakh)	Yahehwe	Kefiykhta	Heakhafaw	Etakhasoa	Aktifao	Uistilrao	Ftah
tuak											
4	-9	4 alt																			
5	-9	1
anglic								Banners	Hanstone	Malorn	Hadji	Storr	Mikhail	Darret	Ataurre	Katoo
nah	Uytal	(Sporelex)	
5	-9	2 vilani																			
5	-9	3
local	(Aftailr)	Ohieraoi	Fahreahluis	Hfiywitir	Irlaftalea	Teahloarifu	Ahkiweah
i'	Iyiyukhtoi'	(Ftetlao')										
5	-9	4 alt																			
6	-9	1
anglic									(Holowon)	(Amderstun)	RimReach	Phlange	Tracerie	(Wrence)	(Muarn
e)	(Lancask)	(Tensk)	(Aphlent)	
6	-9	2 vilani																			
6	-9	3
local	(Tahahroal)	(A'yosea)	(Usoirarloiau)	(Oiah)	(Eahyaw)	(Ftyer)	(Elyetleisi
yea)	(Eose'o)	(Tahahorol)										
6	-9	4 alt																			
7	-9	1 anglic																			
7	-9	2 vilani																			
7	-9	3 local																			
7	-9	4 alt																			

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question

In a message dated 97-07-28 20:27:58 EDT, you write:

<< > I never understood why the Zhodani didn't subvert the Darrians to gain
 > access to the remnant TL16 technology even though they must have
  >>

The thought was that the Star Trigger remained as a deterrent to overt action
by Zho against Darrians. Even if the Zho took over Darrian, could they be
sure they had caught a squadron of Star Triggers?

Better not to take the chance.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:43:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bounty

In a message dated 97-07-28 21:26:03 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Yes, but certain crimes can all be considered offenses against the
 Imperium,
 and these are the ones a warrent would be issued.
  >>

Remember that most modern bounty hunting is for bail-jumpers... people who
have signed a contract that they owe money if they run away, and they waive
their varuuious rights if they skip town. That lets a bounty hunter collect
them as a civil matter. 

Mow, it remains to be seen what enabling legislation and treaty agreements
allow an Agent to work and under what circumstances.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In a message dated 97-07-28 20:47:36 EDT, you write:

<< Are you making it up as you go along, or are you trying to stick to 
 Traveller As We Know It? >>

Reread Foundations of Traveller in the basic T4 book. I use that as a
reference. That said, I want to retain what has gone before as cannon, and
find ways to blend it in to what we're doing today. 

Sometimes logical extensions of poorly thought out previous material make it
illogical or untenable, and we have to find ways to disable it.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:42:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Double-Agent

In a message dated 97-07-28 20:16:30 EDT, you write:

<< Why the last bit? Why can't a Rogue enter the game pretending to be someone 
 else?  >>

He can still say he was a "Noble" or "Merchant" and act like it.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:10:06 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

> How about making it available in Adobe Acrobat .pdf format?
> You could scan it and let Acrobat do the rest (afaik) 

	Have you tried Acrobat using e.g. sector maps ;-(

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:35:05 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

Moin Andrew Boulton,

> [1]Is it? It has an active Nobility, plus Soc is one of the characters 
> defining characteristics, so the evidence is yes. 

	In out house rules, any promotion raises social standing, so
	even a belter, criminal or corsair can sustain soc if he has
	a promotion any term.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:07:11 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Moin CardSharks@aol.com,
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (please tell the gurus to setup GECOS field
     			 in /etc/password or yellow pages !)

Moin Marc,

> Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
> 
> Comments?

	I've tried to scan TNE sector files, using professional
	equipment from ArtCom, and tried about a dozend diffent
	OCR system, but especialy those gray/white tables are
	very difficult. So I asked here (about a year ago) and
	got most wanted from the UseNet folk.

	Stoned idea :

	Perhaps the only low budget solution would be to make
	it open to the net and let the fans do the work.

	Scan the books and put them on a ftp/web server as hires
	GIF+OCR prescan. Give anybody a PERSONAL login on this
	server. Anytime somebody dowmloads a new page, he has to
	make the lectors job, and upload a edited version of
	the prescan.  If he dos'nt, his download will become
	restricted to already lectored pages.

	This would be the job for only two regular people.

	Or even more "geruillia marketing": Make old Traveller
	books open to the Gutenberg project. A SciFiRGP partly
	under GPL would have a big impact to game industry.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Galactic v2.3 now available

Announcing Galactic version 2.3

Now available at my homepage...    http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv

        PROGRAM NAME: "GALACTIC" [v2.3] {July 1997}
        GAME SYSTEM: Traveller/MegaTraveller
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos  (jimv@empirenet.com)
        FUNCTION: Sector Viewer/Generator
        SIZE: 3,153,415 Bytes
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
	      (but windows will also run dos-applications)
        COMMENTS: Allows user to randomly generate sectors, displays
	      the maps in VGA, translates the UWP code to English,
	      and keeps campaign notes in text files which can be
	      accessed directly from the map. The maps all mesh
	      seemlessly. Includes lots of official and non-official
              sectors. Even includes world mapping and star system
              mapping software. Note, you must use the "-d" option
	      when unzipping:

                  >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d gal23.zip    <<<<<<<<

Oh, and make sure you're using pkunzip 2.04g to do the unzipping.
If you have trouble getting Galactic, unzipping it, or whatever,
let me know. I'll be happy to postal you a set of floppies.

For those who have been using version 2.2, here's some of the new
stuff:

  * Jens Maskus contributed the Gateway Sector (originally by DGP)
  * idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz contributed the Dagudashaag Sector (borrowing
    world names from work by v.m.patel@bradford.ac.uk) as well as the
    Core Sector (though this one is still largely in need of world names)
  * Lewis Roberts contributed updates to his TNE galaxy
  * Added automated jump route creation (F6) to subsector map
  * Added star system map creation (F9) to subsector map
  * Added dump-to-bitmap feature (F10) to various maps using
    SAVESCR v0.6 by Aaron Zabudsky <zabudsk@ecf.utoronto.ca>
  * Created galdata\galhooks.dat file to control the calling of
    various subprograms by Gal. You can modify this file to hook
    programs that you have written into Gal, adding entirely new
    features to the software.

Due to overwhelming demand, the program is also available in
three diskette-(1.44meg)-sized chunks. Read the help file
at my homepage for info on how to deal with this version.

Hope you enjoy the program. If you find any bugs, please let
me know. I'm going on vacation and will be gone until August
21st (no email... no nothing), but I hope to find a big pile
of email when I get back letting me know what you like, what
you hate, and what needs fixing :-)

           _   /|       Jim Vassilakos
           \`o_O'       jimv@empirenet.com
             ( )        http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv
              U         San Bernardino, California

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:58:19 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Random Dates (Reprise)

I was going through some old Traveller stuff on my hard drive, and found 
this gem. I wrote it back in June of 1993, proving that I thought of 
random date generation before Marc. :)

- --- begin quoted material ---
Quick and Dirty Date Table
Rolling a random date for a year (eg. Birthdate) with standard dice at 
first seems easy. eg. roll percentile + (d3*100). Where d3 is d6/2 
dropping fractions. But this method skews dates, as the d3 is 
0,1,1,2,2,3. There is half the probability for a date less than 101 then 
for dates from 101 to 200. Even if d4-1 is substituted for d3, there is a 
greater probablility of a date 300-365 than there should be, as each roll 
of d4 is equally probable. If there were 400 days in a year, this would 
not be a problem.
Inspection of probability of dates, assuming equal probability for each 
date, gives:
                           Fraction of 
Dates     No. of Days    total (Approximate)   Fraction of 33
1-100         100              3/11              9/33
101-200       100              3/11              9/33
201-300       100              3/11              9/33
301-365        65              2/11              6/33
Total         365             11/11              33/33

So, all we need is an 11 sided die. Well, in this universe they are 
difficult to make, but knowing the probability table for 2d6:
die	Probability
2 or 12      1/36
3 or 11      2/36
4 or 10      3/36
5 or 9       4/36
6 or 8       5/36
7            6/36
Total       36/36

The following table may be used, simply add d100 to the value rolled on 
this table. Reroll d100 rolls greater than 65 when 300 is rolled on this 
table.
roll	# of days	Probability
3 or less	  roll again	        0 (you rolled it again)
4                0            3/33
5-6            100            9/33
7                0            6/33
8-9            200            9/33
10+            300            6/33
With this method each date will have (approximately) the same 
probability. Were there 366 days in a year, this method would be exact.
- --- end quoted material ---

I don't know if my knowledge of statistics was in error, but it seems 
like a way of rolling dates given d6's and percentile dice, that favours 
certain dates less than some other methods...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:57:52 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Stations (and Planet X)

>experimental military tactics and weapons.  Thus the name X-TEK, which 
>originaly ment, eXperinental TEKnologies group. (Pay attention, this is a 
>trivia question on Imperial Jeopardy!)

I'm Alexi Kerbekiim, welcome to Imperial Jeopardy. The categories are:

The Imperial Family...

Xenobiology...

The Rule of Man...

Vilani Geography...

Megacorps...

Rhymes with "Trokh"...

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:00 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: New Traveller Page

Hi all,
Just thought I'd drop back in for a moment now that exams are over, and say
hello, and inform you all that I have started a traveller page.

You can find it at 

http://www.appcomp.utas.edu.au/students/pharris/

Comments are most welcome.

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 18:42:10 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1

Marc,

HEXADECIMAL NUMBERS CHART

This may seem picky, but you *really* should change the HEXADECIMAL NUMBERS
chart to TRAVELLER NUMBERS.  Everything is fine as long as your chart
doesn't go beyond F, but when you use G, H, J, etc you are no longer using
hexadecimal notation.  You could explain that in "Universal Profile System"
the first 16 numbers follow the hexadecimal notation and then continue with
letters in a similar fashion.  You should not refer to the chart as a
hexadecimal number chart, though.

A second concern on the same chart concerns the missing "I."  Sure, "I" and
"L" can be confused, but please don't skip "I."  It's used in sector charts
after all, and it's a perfectly nice little letter.  ;->


SCHOOL PREREQUISITES

EDU 6 is listed as Associate (I assume as in Associate Degree, ie 2 years
beyond High School).  I don't have a problem with that, within your system,
but I it raises some problems for me when it comes to the school
prerequisites.

University, Military Academy and Merchant Academy all have an EDU PreReq of
6+.  I suggest that should be dropped to EDU 5+ (High School Graduate) for
AT LEAST University and Merchant Academy.  Virtually all HS grads (assuming
HS graduation means what it should mean) can get into *some* sort of
college, and after some preparatory work can succeed at University level
work.  The Merchant Academy should be similar.

The Imperial Military Academy (currently 6+) probably should be more
restrictive EDU 5+, but why isn't the Imperial Naval Academy (currently 5+)
just as restrictive?  The Officer class of the Navy is going to need the
technical skills based on EDU every bit as much as the Army.

Personally, I'd make the Military and Naval Academies Edu 6+ and Universtiy
and Merchant Academy Edu 5+.


TITLES

I've got a problem with the official title for a PhD being "Professor."
Professor is (or should be) a rank in the SCHOLAR career.  [BTW, if you
included ranks for *any* of the careers in the file you sent me, they
didn't survive my conversion to Word 6 or RTF formats.]  I don't know if
you've listed a career sequence for Scholars anywhere, but as an example,
I'm listing *one* possiblity below..

    Undergraduate Student   -  working toward BS/BFA/BA
    Graduate Student        -  working toward MS/MFA/MBA
    ------------------
    Graduate Assistant      -  Masters and working toward PhD
    Instructor              -  Masters or PhD
    Associate Professor     -  PhD and "tenure"
    Assistant Professor     
    Professor
    ------------------
    Department Chairman     -  now you're getting into Admin positions
    Dean                    -  oversees a school within a college
    Provost                 -  oversees a college within a university

[If this this looks like University is *part* of the Scholar career, it
should! ;->]


WAVERS

Let me get this clear..*higher* SOC's have a better chance of succeeding on
a waver roll, that's cynical, but *OH* so true.  Frankly I'd allow the
waver system to be applied to all careers, not just Scholar.  Doing this
would allow a general bumbler to become General Bumbler, if he/she has the
proper connections and a high enough social ranking.  Now, we wouldn't want
to *play* such a person...maybe ;->..., but it fits many of our favorite
NPC's to a tee. 


Eris
- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------- 
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1619
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1620



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman
RE: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Bounty Hunters and the Law
Revenue Cutter (was: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB)
Re[2]: MT Designs
Re[2]: CT/MT Re-releases
What is Canon?
Re[2]: And now, a Traveller trivia question
Re[2]: And now, a Traveller trivia question
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re[2]: CT/MT Re-releases
Milieu-specific books
CD Rom??

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 22:40:40 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

On 7/28/97 11:34 AM, the sophont Volker A. Greimann communicated:

>How about making it available in Adobe Acrobat .pdf format?
>You could scan it and let Acrobat do the rest (afaik) 

I don't think so. You wouldn't be able to do text searches and whatnot 
unless the page was generated from the original postscript. In Acrobat, 
the letters are drawn on the screen using embedded or installed fonts, 
the text exists within the doc.

If you were to scan a page, you would get a bitmap. Sure, the .pdf would 
put it into a browsable format and add its own compression, but it would 
be no different than a GIF or JPEG. You would still need some sort of OCR 
to be able to edit and copy text...

That's the way I understand it...



- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 20:00:40 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

On 07/28/97 at 06:25 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>Here's an idea I've had bouncing around for a while: should officer  ranks
>have an associated minimum Social Standing? Is it reasonable for  the
>Grand Admiral of the Fleet to have a Soc of 1?

>There are two ways of looking at this. First, in society as 
>class-conscious as the Imperium[1], a scummy little Soc-1 peasant will 
>have a much harder time getting promotions than a Soc-10 gentleman, who 
>plays golf with the Baron every other weekend. From this point of view, 
>you can be promoted as long as your Soc is >= the minimum for the rank. 
>If you receive a further promotion, you get a +1 Soc instead. Next  time,
>since your Soc has increased, you may be promoted.

Frankly, this is closer to the way I see things working. In a completely
egalitarian society competency matters, class doesn't, but the Imperium
(and social structures like it) aren't completely egalitarian. I can see
where a character's social class would put a limit on how far they could
advance.  

If the PC is SOC 5, let's say, then O5 is as far as they will normally go.
However, we need to take *exceptions* into account so...a SOC+1 might be a 
skill choice (but we'd have to put a strict limit on how many SOC+1's a
player could choose), or maybe WAVERS could apply to promotions as well. 
Our SOC 5 PC makes his Promotion roll to O6, but before he can actually
advance he has to succeed on a WAVER roll (<= SOC) as well, and because of
the cumulative -DM on Waver attempts many low and medium SOC PC's will get
"stuck in rank" never really having a chance to advance to the Flag level.
In a more egalitarian society, you'd make the SOC limitation less severe by
either not including the cumulative -DM's on WAVER attempts or dropping the
SOC limitation completely.

As for British Army's O6+ officers all being SOC B+, the question is are
they B+ because of their rank or in their rank because they are B+?  I'd
guess it's more the latter than the former.  I'm just guessing here, but I
bet you won't find many "cockney" accents in the Officer corps of the
British Military, and at Flag rank I'd be surprised if you find *any* at
all. ;->

It's a little different in the US, but rising through the ranks from
private soldier to Flag rank is still rare enough to arouse comment.  


Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 19:28:41 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: RE: Alternate Rank Structures

On 07/28/97 at 10:34 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>At 08:41 AM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>I thought the term Force Commander was used instead of Captain to avoid 
>>confusion with Naval Captain's.

>That's the way it is now.  I tried to get the ranks to match up between
>the Navy and Marines to cut down on the confusion.  If you are a Navy
>rating, and told to go find Capt. Nelson, you won't be confused when the
>officer in question is wearing LTs pips.  Also, I just like the sound of
>"Force Lieutenant Van Rijn, reporting as ordered."

Doug,

I like to play with structures too. ;->

There should be only one Captain aboard a ship, and that is it's commanding
officer.  Non-commanding officers aboard ship with the rank Captain are
given an honorary promotion while aboard so as to eliminate *any* confusion
over just who is Captain.  The Marines *should* use something like you
listed, but because Marine forces are most usually stationed aboard ship I
suggest dropping the Captain rank from their structure completely.  In
fact, how about dropping Captain as a *rank* in the Navy as well?  Take a
look at the following...

- -- 
     Imperial Marine Force     Imperial Army       Imperial Navy
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
O1  Force 2nd Lieutenant      2nd Lieutenant      Ensign
O2  Force 1st Lieutenant      1st Lieutenant      Sub Lieutenant
O3  Force Commander           Army Captain        Lieutenant
O4  Force Major               Major               Senior Lieutenant
O5  Force Lieutenant Colonel  Lieutenant Colonel  Lieutenant Commander
O6  Force Colonel             Colonel             Commander
O7  Force Brigider General    Brigider General    Commadore
O8  Force Major General       Major General       Rear Admiral
O9  Force Lieutenant General  Lieutenant General  Fleet Admiral
O10 Force General             General             Sector Admiral
O11                           Field Marshall      Admiral
O12                           Marshall            Grand Admiral

I'd suggest dropping Captain from the army as well, but that would
probably cause a war.  ;-> Anyway, in the navy, Captain would define a
*position*, ie commander of a ship, not a rank.  By O3 naval officers
could begin to command ships, and would all be called Captain aboard
their own ships.  They would hold consistent ranks within larger force
structures that define their relationships with officers aboard *other*
ships.

Comments?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 21:22:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.

On 07/28/97 at 06:28 PM,  Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> said:

>(My personal favorite is the "collar" vac suit, which is nothing more than
>a metal collar with a globe of plastic attached.  You put it on and the
>plastic melts to cover the whole body and protects wearer from vacuum
>environment. CO2-powered manuevering jet and AI steering included :-)

Well, I don't have *that* book, but my favorite is the "skin suit" idea
that came from..I think..Larry Niven. 

It's the year 20??, and you are a "belter" looking for a new environment
suit, so you wander down to the local nanotech shop.  There you buy a
specially tailored starter-nano "skinsuit" from a technician that has been
uniquely targeted to your DNA.  Once you apply the "dab of goo", it uses
dead skin and ambient heat to build a thin "skin" of nanites over your
entire body.  Because it is targeted to your uniquely any that is rubbed
off just dissolves.  In use, the nanite "skin" is normally transparent, or
displays a pattern of your choice, allowing you to see, breath, eat, and
take care of other business as if it wasn't there, but all the while the
community of nanites are hard at work.  They thicken, thin and change
flexibility as outside air pressure change to maintain a normal internal
pressure.  They allow more or less heat to escape to keep your body
temperature at a comfortable level.  They provide a natural shade over your
eyes when light levels exceed set limits.  I seem to remember that they
also recycled CO2 to extend oxygen supplies. You just wear it *all* the
time either under your normal clothes or *as* your normal clothes.

The limitation was material and energy.  Because it used your body for
material and energy, and if it was internal as well as external (why not)
the nanites would have access to all the minerals and energy your body
produced, I could see it "eating you up" if you were in a low
resource/energy environment.  (It would pay to be *fat* so you could extend
your resources in emergency situations. ;->)

I don't know how reasonable it is, but it's a *neat* concept.  ;->

My second favorite nanite application is the "nanite wrap."  Seed an
airless rock of a planet/moon with some "habitat maker nanites" and wait a
few months.

The nanites replicate from materials in ground soil and solar energy
spreading rapidly across the surface.  After completely covering the
surface and linking into an airtight wrap the second stage begins.  Now the
nanites begin to break oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide out of the soil
as the "wrap" slowly expands lifted by the airpressure.  After a while
there are is a partial-bar of pressure trapped inside the globe spanning
wrap floating hundreds of meters above the surface.  The "wrap" would be
tailored to absorb solar energy on it's outside and transfer heat and light
to the inner surface in just the right amounts to create "comfortable"
light and temperature levels.  Ships could slowly move through the wrap
allowing it to maintain it's seal, so that wouldn't be a problem.  Fast
moving hits, like Meteor strikes, would knock holes in the wrap, but the
nanites "seeking to maintain their link" would quickly close them before
major pressure drops could occur (remember this wrap covers an entire moon
or planet to hundreds of feet there's so much atmosphere under that wrap
that it would take a *long* time for it to dissipate even through a large
hole.).

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:36:08 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

On 28 Jul 97 at 11:05, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
> 
> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of
> the material. Scan every page and convert to text, then make it
> hypertext.

	I'd go for the third option. I don't see much point in removing
some material (game rules etc.); if you're going to publish a
CD-ROM, you don't pay for printing and page count doesn't matter 
that much. Removing the extra material might really become more 
expensive.

	IMO something like .PDF (Acrobat Portable Document Format) would be
ideal. The software is freely available for most platforms, .PDF
documents are easy to print out (I hate to have to use a computer to
look up something when running a game, I always print hardcopies of
everything), and you can easily make the paes look just like the 
originals.

/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:58:30 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

>> From: CardSharks@aol.com
>
>> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>>
>> Scan every page as an image.
>> Scan every page and convert to text.
>> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>> material. Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>>
>> Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>>
>> Comments?

Anything that made this simple to do and relatively affordable would be
great in my eyes. I could even live without the MT stuff. :) I suspect that
most people are like me, and have suffered from a degradation in their
collections of CT materials over the years. Just about everybody who played
the old game wouldn't mind something like this to fill in the gaps.
Legibility would seem to be the only real requirement.

I know about a half a dozen people who aren't even on this list who would
buy something like this without even thinking about it. I bet it would
really sell.




Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:01:28 +0000
From: "Nicholas Sylvain" <sylvain@ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Bounty Hunters and the Law

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:29:15 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Bounties, and the hunting thereof

>Then you'd have the MoJ treading on the rights of the world. "What do
>you mean not valid?!  He WALKED ON THE GRASS!!!  That's a major 
>FELONY here!!"
>
>(snippage)

To compare to the US situation, each state is free to define its own 
criminal code, which from time to time will lead to similar 
situations where a fugitive is arrested on another state's warrant.  
The "arresting" state may well consider the law that the accused is 
alleged to have violated quite ridiculous, but extradition will 
proceed nevertheless.

However, in the Imperial arena, I would think that certain categories 
of law (e.g. murder, large scale theft/fraud, etc.) will be given 
Imperial sanction, decided on a law by law basis.  Sanction would 
permit enforcement by Imperial agents and/or assistance, perhaps 
taking the form of an Imperial Unlawful Flight to Avoid Prosecution 
warrant (technically, a seperate crime, but as a practical matter it 
is dropped after arrest to allow the defendant to be extradited on 
the "local" charge.)

"Non-sanctioned" law could then only be enforced within the original 
jurisdiction or by private agent (i.e. bounty hunter).

>In NA, bounty hunters are private citizens who usually work for bail
>bondsmen.  They are not licensed, nor do they have any authority
>beyond that of a private citizen.  They simply have the skills to
>track down bail jumpers.

Not exactly.  There is a relatively obscure Federal law that grants 
bounty hunters some greater leeway than that normally allowed a 
private citizen (but I can't find anything handy... maybe someone 
else out there does?)

> If the
>bounty hunter breaks the law on whatever planet he's on, he may find
>himself being hunted.

I would agree, but so that member worlds don't squawk *too* loudly, 
perhaps the Imperium would grant a modest degree of protection to 
properly trained and licensed bounty hunters.  However, any ad-hoc, 
unlicensed bounty hunters would get in very hot water with both local 
and Imperial law enforcement.

>But Imperial authority doesn't go past the starport gate.  Much in the
>same way the FBI has to be invited to take part in most cases, the
>Imperium cannot run roughshod over its allegedily sovergn members.

True, but as a practical matter, with the degree of federalization of 
the criminal law nowadays, if the FBI wants in on a case they can 
invite themselves in, locals be damned.  I would suspect the Imperial 
authorities would have a similar power (rarely used, not publicized, 
but darned useful in a crunch).


- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nicholas Sylvain (sylvain@ix.netcom.com) Your tour guide to Ohio's finest
Assistant Prosecuting Attorney           correctional accomodations! I can
Montgomery County, Ohio                  design a stay to meet your deeds!
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:02:27 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Revenue Cutter (was: Re: THUDDD 6: TL-10 SDB)

On 28 Jul 97 at 13:49, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> ... The SDB, by the way, is *not* a revenue cutter, although it
> will serve as such in a pinch.  The SDB should be a dedicated
> defensive vessel.

<start word processor>
<swapswapswapswap>
<cut> <paste>

Somebody said Revenue Cutter?


Westland-Grimm AG

A-5 Gremlin Cutter

General Data
Displacement: 80 tons		Hull Armor: 62
Length: 26.4 meters		Volume: 1120m3
Price: MCr 48.58			Target Size: S
Configuration: Cylinder SL		Tech Level: 11
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 2170.5t / 1942.9t

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 240 MW Tokamak Fusion Reactor (48  MW/hit), 1 year
 	duration (deuterium, 36.0 m3) Engines: 1x HEPlaR / Fusion drive,
	3200 tons of thrust
 G-Rating: 4G (40 MW/G)
 G-Turns: (1: HEPlaR): 80, 5 m3 fuel each G-turn.
 (2: Fusion): 240, 1.67 m3 fuel each G-turn.
Maint: 

Electronics  
 Computer: 1x Mod St-11 computers (0.35 MW),
	1x Mod Fib-11 computer (0.35 MW) 
Commo: 30Kkm radio (1 hex, 1 MW)
	1000AU laser (unlimited; 0.3 MW)
	1000AU maser (unlimited; 0.6 MW)
 Avionics: Flight avionics-10+
 Sensors: Passive EMS 120Kkm fld array (4 hex; 0.2 MW)
	 Active EMS 90Kkm array (3 hex; 30.0 MW)
 Controls: 3x Workstation (standard) on flight deck
	1x other workstation.

Armament
 Offensive: 1x TL-11 150Mj Free-Electron Laser barbette (Loc: 10 -
	 Arcs:2-4; Powered to -2 Diff Mod; 42.0 MW; 1 Crew)

Weapon			Short	Medium	Long	 Ext
150Mj Laser Barbette	4:1/9-27	8:1/9-27	16:1/6-20 32:1/3-10

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (.224 MW), G-compensators (2G;
     5.6 MW)
Crew: 11: 1x Engineering, 1x Electronics, 1x Maneuvering,
     1x Gunnery, 6x Troops, 1x Command
Crew Accommodations: 3x small stateroom, 6x bunk
Cargo: 159.2 m3 (11 disp. tons), 1x small cargo hatch
Air Locks: 2

Notes: No fuel purification machinery or fuel scoops. Improvised 
accommodations (bunks) may be set up in cargo space (maximum of 4). 

Damage Tables
Area (1D20)	Surface Hits	Int. Exp.	Systems	
1		Ant		Elec		PP-5H	AEMS-(2h)
2,3				Qtrs		MD-(3h)	PEMS Ant-(2h)
4,5		1-2: Ant		1-3: Qrts 4-20: Hold LS-3H	SSR-(2h)
6,7				Qrts		ELS-2H	LB-1H
8,14,15,18,19			Hold		AG-1H	
9		1-6: CH 7: AL	Hold		
10				LB		
11		1: Ant		1-9: Eng 10-12: Elec, 13-20: Hold		
12, 13				1-5: LB, 6-20: Hold		
16, 17				1-10: Eng, 1-20: Hold		
20				Eng		


Description

	Produced by the independent company Westland-Grimm, the A-5 Gremlin
is a commonly encountered vessel. It is based on the classic Rule of
Man -era A-1 Tigram patrol boat (still produced by Odyssey, Inc., LIC
in large numbers); similar boats are a common sight in all of Terran
space.

	The A-5 is designed specifically for the needs of Federated Suns
Coast Guard and the Federal Customs Agency. It is used for orbital
security, customs inspections, as well as short-range patrolling. 

	However, the A-5 does not have wilderness refueling capabilities -
it is capable of emergency re-entry only. All A-5s are serviced and
refueled on orbit (nearly all starports have some orbital
components). Another interesting feature is that while the ship is
capable of accelerating at 4G for over 10 hours, prolonged high-G
maneuvers are not recommended: the TL 11 grav plates can only
compensate up to 2G. Because of this, the A-5 shares many features
with its pre-gravitic counterparts, including swiveling bunks with
G-webbing, a pair of powered towing rails running from engineering
compartment to the bridge, and a general feel of ruggedness rarely
felt aboard gravitic vessels.

/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1997 08:08:26 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: MT Designs
     
Well, I just looked through, and some of my stuff vanished off my 
hard-drive, and the paper copies are illegible (coffee, tea, soda, banana, 
etc).
     
If you want, I'll e-mail you off my "fixes" to MT... a few little nudges. 
Also, keep in mind that FF&S (TNE) PP's are size/weight/cost matches to MT, 
so you can add the optional power-plants.
     
William F. Hostman
     Ah, the old coffe stains at work again ... the sign of a well-used 
     design.  Yes, I'd be interested in your "fixes" to MT, as long as 
     they don't come with banana stains!
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1997 08:17:27 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: CT/MT Re-releases

One thought could be to offer an 'amnesty' for those who have already 
done some of the work, ahem, 'privately', for their own campaigns, if 
they sent in the scanned files they have. Or outright ask for help from 
traveller fans with scanners. It worked reasonably well for SJG when 
they wanted to put up issues of Roleplayer and ADQ on the web.
     Indeed, why not?
Oh, one final thought before I hit the sack, I'd definitely want 
the TASJ and Challenge articles on the CD as well. While I have 
most issues, it'd be *real* handy to have them on the web. 
(Actually I'd want the Twilight:2000 articles as well, but 
that's another topic. ;-)
     Yes, I'd enthusiastically endorse that to.  Excellent idea! 
     It'd be *great* to have those JTAS and Challenge articles 
     easily accessible.
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:20:16 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: What is Canon?

Harold, Leroy:

Canon is more than just what was written, but also the manner of writing.
The old CT stuff by GDW presented material as fact of the game universe.
The MT stuff presented materials as though they were "Current best
knowledge" (a history of technology term, referring to stuff that you know
might be wrong, but nothing better fits), with the ref's library data
presenting "Facts". TNE had no consistent approach; The core rulebook was
"Fact", the RCVG was "Anecdotal", and H&I was "THis is all BS". RSB was,
much like MT, pretty well Current Best Knowledge.

Canon is also who wrote it. I give higher weight to GDW Products than
individual authors (Sorry, Marc). I also give higher weight for MT to DGP
than to individual authors; read the credits for MT and the staff list for
DGP and you will see why. Here's my basic hierarchy (Best first)
GDW Pubs (Except challenge)
DGP Pubs (including TD, MTJ)
GDW Authors (Marc, Loren, Keith & Keith, Chadwick, Nilsen[sp?])
DGP Authors (Keith, Fugate, Thomas, Caswell)
Other DGP and GDW Staffers
Gamelords Pubs
Traveller Chronicle
CHallenge Magazine
The Adjutant (for it's local area only)
Other Stuff for Traveller

(I like the Judges Guild sectors... a full domain sized are with little
imperial prescence... I was really miffed when the "Land Grannts" were
revoked, and Imperial Atlas didn't have listings for all worlds. So I
continued to use the JG Domain; although, you'l note, I don't discuss them
in canon terms-- GDW Decanonized them, the ultimate source.)

I suppose that T4 should top the list, but I can't quite see it as the same
environment; the tone of writing is too much like WoD (Vampire, et al);
nothing is an absolute truth... thus there is no real "canon" there. T4
encourages wide interpretations, as it's as vague as CT was, but covers
MUCH MUCH more ground, and in much more depth. (I realize this looks to be
an oxymoron, but think about it... on three axis: Scope, Depth, truth)

An a side note: If you do a CD-Rom, please put all stuff in one collection,
including CT, MT, and TNE; in full text (maybe in acrobat?) in such a way
that it can be printed for use. Definitely put it in some cross-platform
standard file type and disk type. I'd buy it. I suspect Peter Newman would
too, and I know 3 others in Anchorage who'd buy it. Also, if you can, get
as many of the non-gdw pubs into it as you can, too. Make it the most
complete thing you can, and it will sell (slowly) for years... as long as
Traveller continues to attract new players of ALL editions! Note: Acrobat
Reader is available for Unix, Mac, and Wintel... at no cost to the user
from the internet.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1997 08:34:00 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: And now, a Traveller trivia question

In my universe -- and probably in the canon -- the Darrian subsector is 
one of the real hotbeds of spy vs. spy activity between Zhodani and 
Imperial agents, lobbyists, agents provocateurs, contract hit sophonts, 
etc., and it has been for a very long time.  The Darrians of course have 
peepers in high places, so only the most sincere (or brainwashed) 
diplomats are worth sending.
     Glenn, as with many great ideas, this seems obvious now that you 
     suggest it.  As someone who prefers games of intrigue to military 
     escapades, you've set my devious mind working ...
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1997 08:46:01 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: And now, a Traveller trivia question

The thought was that the Star Trigger remained as a deterrent to overt action 
by Zho against Darrians. Even if the Zho took over Darrian, could they be 
sure they had caught a squadron of Star Triggers?
     
Better not to take the chance.
     
Marc
     Please forgive my ignorance, but could you explain Star Triggers?
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:48:11 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Marc wrote:

>Scan every page as an image.
>Scan every page and convert to text.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>material.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

While 5. would be everyone's dream I'm sure, I appreciate it would cost...

>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.

So, I'd settle (a little reluctantly) for 1. as a useful archive and hope
for 2 which would be terrific.

I don't think we can expect you (or anyone else) to edit the text - it
would be extremely hard, IMO, to know where to stop when it comes to
choosing between typographic errors, errors of fact, errors of ommission,
things you wish hadn't been said at that point, things you wish *had*.  If
you were really to start editing it, I think you'd have another life time's
work on your hands.

Besides which, if this is to be a reference archive perhaps it *should*
contain what was actually published so we know what's what.  (Or what was).

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jul 1997 08:53:05 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: CT/MT Re-releases

At the same time, please consider giving Roger Sanger permission to reprint 
the old Traveller's Digest issues, and perhaps other DGP supplements.  The 
old Traveller books had some really neat stuff in them, and having a select 
portion of them available would add another several dozen books worth of 
info to the Traveller line with far less effort than writing new stuff.
     I'd second that!!
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:06:15 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Milieu-specific books

Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net> said, about "New T4 books I'd like to see":

>...the problem I have, and the
>problem I'm having with most of the released T4 materials thus far is
>their M0-centric ideas.  I know that the current milieu is M0, but when
>they release further milieux are we going to have to buy, say a new
>Aliens book...

This problem has been recognised (by CORE) - the Aliens book has, to my
knowledge, been written from a fairly neutral viewpoint and should be usable
for any Milieu. As I noted in a previous post, the Vargr section has bits
written by people in the 100s, 200s and 1100s, so as to provide the complete
history. However, having sections written by the different 'authors' does
provide the reader with a better idea of how their views of such a race
varied with time.

However, the obvious test will be to hear your reactions when it hits the
shelves (before the end of August, I hope!) :-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:12:28 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: CD Rom??

>
><< Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. >>
>
>I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
>Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
>else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
>and modules.
>
>The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
>Scan every page as an image.

Way too space intensive

>Scan every page and convert to text.

Very low density method; conversion would be good. Maps, drawings, and
Illos should be in there too.

BTW: Roger mentioned something about having some of the MT stuff still
around on disk... might be easier to check with DGP on that stuff (the
contract work for GDW on MT).

>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.

Face it, some editing will be needed.

>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>material.

Please, no.

>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

Not really needed, IMHO. Would be nice... and if it is standard HTML, most
machines now come with a browser...

>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>
>Comments?

I'd like to see a single disk, with something like the following

TRVCDR -------- CT
       |        |--     Basic Set
       |        |--     Books
       |        |--     Supplements
       |        |--     Adventures
       |        |--     Boxed Sets
       |                |- Tarsus
       |                |- Beltstrike
       |------- MT
       |        |--     Player's
       |        |--     Ref's Manual
       |        |--     Imp. Encyc.
                ...
       |------- TNE
                |--     Basic Book
                |--     FF&S
                        |---    Section 1


Etc.

For ease of reading (if text, or hypertext), keep all names to the 8+3 of
dos, no special characters, as dos, win, and macs can handle that easily,
as can most unix's, on an ISO9660 CD. That way, anybody with a WWW browser
(except certain versions of MS IE) can launch the browser, and look at it
easily, especially if an index page is written (doesn't need to be fancy,
in fact, smoother and simpler is usually better.)


William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1620
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1621



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Galactic v2.3, Dagudashaag data
Re: CD's - long, sorry
Re: Eneri the Eighth
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
[none]
Re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.
Re: Deep Space Stations (and Planet X)
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
CT/MT Re-Releases
What is canon
Re: Major/Minor Races
Re: Milieu-specific books
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: CT/MT Re-Releases
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman
Re: Random Dates (Reprise)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:14 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Galactic v2.3, Dagudashaag data

Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com> announced "Galactic v2.3 now
available", including the line:

>  * idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz contributed the Dagudashaag Sector (borrowing
>    world names from work by v.m.patel@bradford.ac.uk) as well as the

I hope v.m.patel is using the data generated by the Signal-GK crowd, which
is (IMHO) the closest to canon you can get for this sector?

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:54:46 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: CD's - long, sorry

>Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:47 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: CD's - long, sorry
>
>>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>>Scan every page as an image.
>.....
>>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>>
>>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>>
>>Comments?
>
>Hello,
>  I begin to realize that not all of this stuff is on somebody's
>hard drive. Life before desktop publishing must've been fun.

I remember it well, the skills of working from galeys and traditional
film stripping have been pretty much lost now. But more to the point,
virtually everything before 1985 would have been produced using these
old fashioned methods

>  I believe the major cost element for producing the actual CD's
>is pre-production and computer set-up; the actual CD (with case
>and labelling?) should be around $2.00 (at least in the music
>industry). I believe the previous poster is in publishing, so
>obviously he would possess much more accurate info.

The major costs for *any* form of publishing are the set up, actually
putting ink on paper (or magnetism on disk) are relatively small. The
economies of scale are truely staggering in the publishing industry.

>  Of course, the cost of getting material from paper or film
>to disk seems to be where the problem is here. I don't know
>how much time would be required to properly transfer graphics
>or tables, but converting text (scan/OCR/double-check) can be
>pretty fast. Re-editing, if necessary, and redoing the formatting
>could possibly be the major text manipulation costs.

Scanning images from a fixed source is a labour intensive task.

>  I assume the financial barriers to eventually setting this up
>would be the higher end tasks such as formatting and mastering
>for production. If it were legal I could happily scan/OCR all
>my books (except for the thick, bound ones) in about an hour or
>two per LBB, but that wouldn't get me the convenience of buying
>it in one package (and at far less cash cost than I could earn
>in one hour per LBB).

>  If all the CT books were on CD, I'd cheerfully pay $50 or 60
>bucks for it, or $20/disk for a 3 or 4 disk set - and I already
>have all but one LBB. I may be crazy, but I have the money, and
>that's the final issue if it does reach production. I suspect
>there are enough Traveller fanatics around to justify it from
>a business viewpoint, and the margin on mail-order sales would
>be quite remarkable (relevant in the reasonable belief that
>perhaps most customers for such a product would be those on
>this list - at least initially).

Sorry but the costs would be a lot more than $50 to 60, start
thinking three figures, I'd say $250 to 350 is a more realistic
ball park.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Eneri the Eighth

In a message dated 97-07-29 01:57:07 EDT, you write:

<< 
 I thought it was:  "I'm Eneri the Eighth I yam/we've been fighting the
 Solomani next door/we've had seven Imperial governors before/and every
 one was an Eneri!/I'm Eneri the Eighth I yam!"
 
  >>
At last someone has realized that the Vilani personal name Eneri is
pronounced like a British Henry!

I wonder what other Vilani names we can come up with?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:42:07 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Marc wrote:

>Scan every page as an image.
>Scan every page and convert to text.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>material.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

As a TNE player, I'm very interested in old Traveller books (I've several
MT). For example I would like the alien modules and other books. Adventures
is also very important. Alsthough playing in the New Era, I surely could GM
a MT adventure (and even a CT one but I've no book at all to describe the
setting)

I disagree with those who want to trash the rules. I'm very interested to
see what has been used in previous systems to use the best one in my
opinion. So as a general statement I would much prefer the complete books.

I agree with those who want the different journals articles related to
Traveller universe. Official background is always wellcome (euh...
non-official too)

Now for the format : 
I really dislike the Image (Gif/Jpg) format. It's hard to handle, it'll
need personnal OCR software to convert it. Using a picture viewer to read
text from a book is, IMO, a non-sense...

I would pefer the HTML format as it is easily handled. There is no need of
extremly hyperlinked such as many web site. A simple but complete index
pointing on different book/chapters/titled paragraphs is sufficient. Simple
HTML is better.

I'm sure that OCR software could do that. Or even HTML editors could handle
it quite rapidely. Further more, HTML files are easily converted to texte
files (every browser can do it)

So, my opinion is :
1- All stuff (CT, MT, TNE and magazins), with rules and drawings
2- Simple HTML format with arrays and pictures

PS : don't forget the (colored if possible) front pages. 


This CD is a marvellous idea .... please continue adn release it.
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:46:50 +0500
From: "Syed Faraz Ali" <geoeng@paknet3.ptc.pk>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe <geoeng@paknet3.ptc.pk>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:59:25 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.

Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> ("Bloo"):

[snip]

> What TL is Nanotechnology?

It depends on what you mean by nanotechnology.  Creating things with 
a particular (usually regular) nanostructure is done now.  Drexlerian 
nanotechnology I'd put at about TL25 (with some easier applications 
being earlier).

> Of course, nano-tech is a broad spectrum of things.  So is genetic
> engineering.  But how far into the TL8+ spectrum do we really have to
> go?  Drexel was talking about nanotech in the 80s.  The Human Genome
> Project is well underway.  Just how far do you all the the "if you can
> dream it - you can build it" gap is?  3 TLs?  5?

Twenty, IMNSHO.

> Basically, I'm reading about really cool nanotech and bitek (bio-tech)
> ideas in this book and want to incorporate them as high TL artifacts.

It is my suspicion that "bitek" is the way nanotech will be 
implemented in the hypothetical future -- much clunkier than the 
nanites predicted by Drexler et al., which is why it will work ;-)  
It may be that it can be used to produce metal superstructures, which 
will look "grown" because sharp corners are harder to do.

My main point of scepticism is the rod logic used to control nanites. 
I think Drexler has made the engineer's assumption that a structure 
is a structure, and stays where it is put.  This is simply not true 
on the nanotechnological level, and proper alignment of a rod logic 
system is difficult when adding a new cog will shift the positions of 
all the other ones.  Indeed, *moving* a cog will change the positions 
of nearby ones, whether or not they touch.

The "molecular cranes" to move atoms about are also IMO impossible to 
implement on the scales required.  Firstly, picking up single atoms 
is tricky (tho' not impossible), but secondly getting atoms to stay 
where they're put is atrociously difficult.  Structures will 
spontaneously rearrange, unless kept insanely cold.

Now, if you allow really complex psionic manipulations of matter, 
building complex objects on the nanotechnological scale would be 
possible, so Ancient artifacts could indeed be miracles of 
miniaturisation.


> (My personal favorite is the "collar" vac suit, which is nothing more
> than a metal collar with a globe of plastic attached.  You put it on and
> the plastic melts to cover the whole body and protects wearer from
> vacuum environment. CO2-powered manuevering jet and AI steering included
> :-)

Fun 8-)

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:04:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Stations (and Planet X)

In mail you write:

> Since there are no resources in deep space (I don't care what you
> read in the popular fiction, comets and rogue planetoids as few and
> far between in deep space!)

Not true! They are *many*, but *very*, VERY far apart. 

Still, if you are willing to search sphere 100 to 1000 AU across, you
should find something useful.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:50:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 97-07-28 02:03:19 EDT, Bob Sanders writes:
>
> << Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. >>
>
> I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
> Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
> else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
> and modules.
>
> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
> material.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>
> Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.

Image only is acceptable, but converted to text (and edited for OCR
"glitches") would be preferable. Hypertext would be heaven, but I'd
prefer it to be complete, even if some of the material had been
superceded. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:19:31 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: CT/MT Re-Releases

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:48:11 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Marc wrote:

>>Scan every page as an image.
>>Scan every page and convert to text.
>>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>>material.
>>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

>While 5. would be everyone's dream I'm sure, I appreciate it would cost...

>>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.

>So, I'd settle (a little reluctantly) for 1. as a useful archive and hope
>for 2 which would be terrific.

>I don't think we can expect you (or anyone else) to edit the text - it
>would be extremely hard, IMO, to know where to stop when it comes to
>choosing between typographic errors, errors of fact, errors of ommission,
>things you wish hadn't been said at that point, things you wish *had*.  If
>you were really to start editing it, I think you'd have another life
time's
>work on your hands.

	With "editing" in mind, if one uses OCR to scan and interpuret the scanned
text, it is undoubtedly going to contain SOME errors.  Often enough scanned
text is incorrectly identified.  (E.X. 'y's are translated as 'v's and 'q'
as 'g' and so forth.)

>Besides which, if this is to be a reference archive perhaps it *should*
>contain what was actually published so we know what's what.  (Or what
>was).

	I believe this was the intention of the statements of editing.  I also
agree that the text should contain all of the original information as
presented and this editing would ensure that it does reflect the written
word.

	A traveller CD-ROM will sell like hot cakes in my area (Cleveland, OH.) 
The new T4 sales have gone through the roof in most of the local hobby
stores that actually carry the IG stuff.  I'm sure that most of those
people are not on this list, and so have no idea that this type of thing is
going around.  I can think of at least thirty people that I know first hand
who would die to have this type of product.

Scott
scspieker@ncweb.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:28:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: What is canon

   Hi.

> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:59:43 -0400
> From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)

   [Quoting Leroy]
>>It seems to me that the big flaw of canonism is that it is also dependent
>>upon rules interpretation, which is not always consistent among people
>>discussing _any_ game.

   THE big flaw with canonism is that you need a consistent canon to
   start with.  In order to have that, you need at minimum a definition
   of what the canon is.  Without this, debates about what is canonical
   are completely useless.  Since there is no longer an agreed-upon
   definition of canon on the TML, these debates inevitably degenerate
   into posing and ax-grinding.

>    If you want to talk *Traveller*, there is a great deal of consensus
> on a wide variety of issues dealing with the background material. 
> That's why Canonists find MMT a bit more than frustrating--it doesn't
> agree with Traveller on some pretty basic issues.

   Wow, deja vu. This paragraph made me think back to a time when there
   /was/ a definition of canon on the TML.  That definition was: `Canon is
   anything printed in one of the Little Black Books by  GDW.'  Like all
   canons, this definition was arbitrary and agreed-upon.  The term was
   introduced in order to help discuss the relative merits of CT and MT. 
   In those days, you might hear someone like me say something like (and
   I paraphrase 8^):

`If you want to talk *Traveller*, there is a great deal of consensus
on a wide variety of issues dealing with the background material. 
That's why Canonists find MEGATRAVELLER a bit more than frustrating--it doesn't
agree with Traveller on some pretty basic issues.'

   Actually, by the definition of canon I stated above, T4 agrees with
   canon quite well, better than MT ever did.  As a confirmed canonist,
   I don't find T4 frustrating at all.

   Now obviously, only a few of the older fogies here on the TML would
   find such a definition of canon to their liking.  Most people here, I
   suspect, would include all of DGP's publications in their definition
   of canon.  But if you do that, then you run into a problem with the
   consistency requirement.  MT was not completely consistent with CT. 
   An inconsistent canon, like a `canon' that is not agreed-upon, is
   pretty useless as a tool to help resolve hot-blooded debates.

   Since there is no agreed-upon definition of canon, and the commonly
   cited canons are often inconsistent with each other, I believe that
   the debates which have raged across the TML which use and abuse this
   term have been less than illuminating.  My advice, should anyone
   happen to care to hear it,  would be to adopt one of the following
   conventions regarding canon:

   1)  `Canon: just don't do it.'
   2)  Canon: anything published by IG (although this runs into
   sector-data-vs-history consistency problems).
   3)  Canon: The LBB's  --- same as it ever (or once?) was.
   4)  Canon: The Word of Marc.

   Bye.
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:40:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

- -> > -> How about Geshikstries Sternshiffbau AG (sp? = GSbAG).
- -> > That would be Gesichtskreis Sternschiffbau.
- -> > Although it remains a puzzle to me what a Face-Circle is and why it
- -> > builds starships! ;-)
- -> How does this translate literally from the German? (it seems to puzzle
- -> you a little)
- -> 
- -> Geschick = skill
- -> skries = ?
- -> Sternschiff = Starship
- -> bau = Construction
Hmm, i'll check that, i always read Gesichtskreis SBAG, could be that 
i misremembered the name...
Gesichtskreis means roughly translated: Area of view (although 
nobody sais that anymore (old usage), but dirctely it means just what 
i said: Face- Circle...

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:41:47 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Milieu-specific books

- -> This problem has been recognised (by CORE) - the Aliens book has, to my
- -> knowledge, been written from a fairly neutral viewpoint and should be usable
- -> for any Milieu. As I noted in a previous post, the Vargr section has bits
- -> written by people in the 100s, 200s and 1100s, so as to provide the complete
- -> history. However, having sections written by the different 'authors' does
- -> provide the reader with a better idea of how their views of such a race
- -> varied with time.
- -> 
- -> However, the obvious test will be to hear your reactions when it hits the
- -> shelves (before the end of August, I hope!) :-)
I am look ing forward to it.... 
I am just reading PI nd PE and am greatly enjoying boh books!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:59:24 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

- -> IMHO, just scan the material into images, then have something like an
- -> autogenned set of HTML pages.  This offers the convenience of going to a
- -> Chuck McKnight
- -> cmcknight@aol.com
Howevere, images in the needed quality are rather large and unhandy. 
PDF or HTML would be preferrable!
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:52:57 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

- -> << 
- ->  Are you making it up as you go along, or are you trying to stick to 
- ->  Traveller As We Know It?
- ->   >>
- -> 
- -> Reread Foundations of Traveller in the basic T4 book. I use that as a
- -> reference. That said, I want to retain what has gone before as cannon, and
- -> find ways to blend it in to what we're doing today. 
- -> 
- -> Sometimes logical extensions of poorly thought out previous material make it
- -> illogical or untenable, and we have to find ways to disable it.
But some of the well-known facts will remain, won't they.. Such as Tl-
Limits for RoM, the Droyne still exist (contrary to the info in 
Anomalies) and stuff like that?
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:10:14 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-Releases

- -> >>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
- -> going around.  I can think of at least thirty people that I know first hand
- -> who would die to have this type of product.
Although i don't know so many people who would buy that CD, i figure 
that by making it in a smaller format, one could also put more on the 
CD, so Hypertext would be good, PDF would be better (as it retains 
formatting)(Not scanned directly to PDF, but after editing...). 

Now my suggestion: 
How about throwing in with Roger from the new DGP and do a joint 
venture. He wants to do it anyway, so you could split the cost of the 
work, split the effort in half. The CD would then contain everything 
from GDW and DGP in one easy volume, be cheaper for you to create. 
Maybe even contact the authors of the Judges Guild, Fasa Gamelors and 
Seeker (and others) to include their stuff as well.
Bwahahahaha, i want it all!!!!!!Everything, Bwahhahahaha!
   






Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:11:42 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

- ->     IMO something like .PDF (Acrobat Portable Document Format) would be
- -> ideal. The software is freely available for most platforms, .PDF
- -> documents are easy to print out (I hate to have to use a computer to
- -> look up something when running a game, I always print hardcopies of
- -> everything), and you can easily make the paes look just like the 
- -> originals.
That'as the reason why i prefer pdf as well...
I'd really like something that looks like the original!


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:38:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

In a message dated 97-07-29 02:43:34 EDT, Douglas Berry wrote:

<< A Navy Lieutenant will know that he is
 outranked by the Senior Force Lieutenant across the room, while their might
 be som,e confusion if a Marine Lieutenant (O-1) were intoduced to a Navy
 Lieutenant (O-2) while in civies. >>

You're absolutely right!  The Idea of "Force ranks" are excellent.  I guess I
just love the sound of Star Marshal and Colonel General though.  Both invoke
the image of Imperium, at least to my mind.  One little side note to enlisted
ranks, the E9 rank Sergeant Major of Sector should be recognized thusly:
 Sergeant Major of Deneb Gerhard Hessler or Sergeant Major of Diaspora.

Sounds like Marc liked your ideas as well.  Hopefully, they will be
instituted.  

Scott Quigg "XatoKuom@aol.com"

"At the forges of the Gods, it is our curse to be the anvil when they
strike." Bhor anecdote

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:50:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

In a message dated 97-07-29 02:59:29 EDT, you write:

<< The Marines *should* use something like you
 listed, but because Marine forces are most usually stationed aboard ship I
 suggest dropping the Captain rank from their structure completely.  In
 fact, how about dropping Captain as a *rank* in the Navy as well?  Take a
 look at the following... >>

So why hasn't the USMC made the change in American practice. Frankly because
its more fun having tradition and special rules.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

In a message dated 97-07-29 02:59:29 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Comments?
  >>

The simplest way is to use pay grades (E and O ranks). When I was in the
Army, we routinely called soldiers E3 or E4 as their rank. Then someone
finally got into power who put his foot down and said it was disrepectful
even of a lower rank to refer to him (or her) by pay grade rather than formal
rank name. Which is true... that guy worked to get to be Private First Class
(and we wanted him to work to get to Private First Class) and then we ignored
it and called him E3.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:49:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1

In a message dated 97-07-29 03:21:03 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Let me get this clear..*higher* SOC's have a better chance of succeeding on
 a waver roll, that's cynical, but *OH* so true.  Frankly I'd allow the
 waver system to be applied to all careers, not just Scholar.  Doing this
 would allow a general bumbler to become General Bumbler, if he/she has the
 proper connections and a high enough social ranking.  Now, we wouldn't want
 to *play* such a person...maybe ;->..., but it fits many of our favorite
 NPC's to a tee. 
  >>

I have restricted waivers to Education. My problem is the Edu3 person who
applies for a waiver for admission to Grad School (or Medical School) without
the prerequisite BA. Waiver granted. Go directly to Medical School. Advance
Edu to 8. Get advanced degree. !

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

In a message dated 97-07-29 03:06:00 EDT, you write:

<< >There are two ways of looking at this. First, in society as 
 >class-conscious as the Imperium[1], a scummy little Soc-1 peasant will 
 >have a much harder time getting promotions than a Soc-10 gentleman, who 
 >plays golf with the Baron every other weekend. From this point of view, 
 >you can be promoted as long as your Soc is >= the minimum for the rank. 
 >If you receive a further promotion, you get a +1 Soc instead. Next  time,
 >since your Soc has increased, you may be promoted.
  >>

But it's so much more interesting to have a group of naval officers on the
bridge of the Arghishilli, most with Soc clustered around 7 and one of the
with Soc 2. Is he a nerd? A buffoon? An ambitious peasant? Son of a famous
criminal? Does he always embarrass the ship at Naval Balls?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:49:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Random Dates (Reprise)

In a message dated 97-07-29 02:15:52 EDT, you write:

<< 
 I don't know if my knowledge of statistics was in error, but it seems 
 like a way of rolling dates given d6's and percentile dice, that favours 
 certain dates less than some other methods...
>>
So, faced with the challenge of picking a random date out of 365, you tried
some die rolling that made sense, analyzed it, and found it not entirely
satisfactory.

That gives one data point in favor of a chart for random date determination.

Now I'll add a second. I rarely see people actually picking birthdates or
other important dates in their characters' lives. Everyone could pick dates,
but I want them to really pick dates, and the random chart is a push to do
that .

I accomplish that by making it part of the procedure. It just happens to take
a page to do it.

Marc

(thanks Glenn)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1621
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1622



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CD's - long, sorry
Uplifted Species
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Traveller Items for Auction
Re: Major/Minor Races
Tactical Scenario
RE: CT/MT Re-Releases
Re: Re[2]: And now, a Traveller trivia question
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
re: The Reality Dysfunction (was re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.)
Re: Random Dates (Reprise)
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1
Re: CT/MT Re-Releases
Re: Traveller on CD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:46:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: CD's - long, sorry

In a message dated 97-07-29 03:02:05 EDT, you write:

<<  If all the CT books were on CD, I'd cheerfully pay $50 or 60
 bucks for it, or $20/disk for a 3 or 4 disk set - and I already
 have all but one LBB. I may be crazy, but I have the money, and
 that's the final issue if it does reach production. I suspect
 there are enough Traveller fanatics around to justify it from
 a business viewpoint, and the margin on mail-order sales would
 be quite remarkable (relevant in the reasonable belief that
 perhaps most customers for such a product would be those on
 this list - at least initially).
  >>

CD pressing costs are not a real problem. The problem is the scanning and
manipulation. Scan pages. OCR. Check to see they are right. What about illos?
How are tables formatted? What new text needs to be added.

Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images and
the text could be provided as well.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 10:56:41 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Uplifted Species

   
>Why would we ever want to do that?  This has been clearly defined as fully
>within the range of TL 14 genetic engineering.  The Solomani have uplifted
>several species, just like the Ancients did. 

I always assumed that the Ancient's uplift projects were much better
than the Solomani's. The Ancients turned wolves into the fully bipedal
Vargr, while the Solomani, mearly tweaked the Dolphins, Orcas, Apes
Elephants and whatever other species they uplifted. The species are
more intelligent, their maniuplative members are more sophisticated,
they have probably altered them so that they can speak some language.
But they are still rather similiar to their original form. 
 
Lewis Roberts
- - -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is round and dangerous?  
A:A vicious circle.            

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- - ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:02:24 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> writes:
>
>In a message dated 97-07-28 20:47:36 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
> Are you making it up as you go along, or are you trying to stick to 
> Traveller As We Know It?
>  >>
>
>Reread Foundations of Traveller in the basic T4 book. I use that as a
>reference. That said, I want to retain what has gone before as cannon, and
>find ways to blend it in to what we're doing today. 

BTW, pg. 5, T4, book 1 of 10 (presently :).

>Sometimes logical extensions of poorly thought out previous material make it
>illogical or untenable, and we have to find ways to disable it.

As Harold, in this thread, eloquently and agreeably put words in my mouth,
"New _and_ Improved."  It is fair to say that I _do_ think that, and am
not alone. :)

>Marc
>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:20:16 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:52:57 MET
Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> writes:
>
>But some of the well-known facts will remain, won't they.. Such as Tl-
>Limits for RoM, the Droyne still exist (contrary to the info in 
>Anomalies) and stuff like that?
>
> Volker A. Greimann

You know, someone just aprised me of past discussions about the Droyne,
among other things.  I do not know what was said here, but my recollection
of reading _all_ the stuff about the Droyne was that they were not known to
be collectively one race in M0.  It was only after years of Imperial
sophonotologists piecing things together that they learned that all these
worlds scattered about with Chirpers and Droyne, were in fact one race.

Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:25:51 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Traveller Items for Auction

I am auctioning off the following Traveller items in the
rec.games.frp.marketplace newsgroup:
                                                                            Bid
DGP     101 Vehicles                                  Ex  $ 5.00
DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      UP  $ 5.00
DGP     Starship Operator's Manual            Ex  $ 5.00

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     PU  $10.00
             does not have the tech manual or combat
             chart)

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    UP  $10.00
             marks and is slightly pushed in)

Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                            MN  $ 5.00
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                              MN  $ 5.00
Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     Ex  $50.00
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)

The name of the post is:

Auction: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller).

Thanks for your time.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:46:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Major/Minor Races

In a message dated 97-07-29 11:14:28 EDT, you write:

<< -> > That would be Gesichtskreis Sternschiffbau.
  >>

I think it was an attempt to mean

Horizon Starship Works

(that's basically me trying to remember what we meant at GDW when we made
that up).

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:02:31
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Tactical Scenario

My players are currently engaged in a modified version of the
classical "Rescue on Ruie" scenario.
A rich merchant asked them to visit a TL3, Pop-5 nation on a
planet just outside Imperial space and try to free his son which
has been imprisoned by local authorities.
They must free him or, if this seems to be too dangerous for the
prisoner, should try to collect as many data as possible on his
whereabouts in order to later organize a full scale mercenary
operation.
The patron said he couldn't be directly involved because his
company is currently facing an hostile takeover attempt by a
rival corporation.

The PCs are currently visiting the local capital, and trying to
discover where the prisoner is kept. They are also considering
alternatives to violence, like bribing or offering a ransom for
the young man. Play is currently suspended and will restart at
the end of August.

What the PCs don't know is that the rival corporation has
discovered what happened to their patron's son, and have already
prepared a full scale mercenary assault on the city.

What I'd like to discuss is the mercenary tactics and any
suggestion you may have on the scenario. I think that the
players would try to help the locals to repel the assault, or
perhaps they would try to use the enemy's attack as a diversion for
freeing their target.

The City:
- --------
It's a lightly fortified "medieval" coast town. The local chief
mansion (where the hostage is held) is on a small island facing
the main port. Local troops are loyal and motivated but can't
really compete (they have Tl-3/4 weaponry and armours, with a
limited number of Tl-5 rifles).

The Mercenaries:
- ---------------
They have 3 walkers (taken by the T2300 equipment guide, if you
are unfamiliar with these, just think of the 2 legged walkers in
the _Return of the Jedi_ movie). Two of them will attack the
main gates, the third one will enter the city walking on the
river bed (remaining underwater until the last moment).  They
are armed with lasers(see down for more on weaponry, though) and
HMGs, have a rigid armor of 9 and can operate for 15+ hours.
The walkers will act as a diversion, and have been chosen in
order to give the maximum psychological effect on the natives
("Iron Covered Monsters! Aieeee!").
While the walkers attack, two Gcarriers will fly to the island,
strafe it with their AP weapons and then one of the two will
discharge 20 men while the other attacks the waterfront.
The attack will start at midnight, this way the mercs will have
(on top of the others advantages) the ability to easily fight in
the dark thanks to their advanced combat gear.
The Mercenary commands would like to minimize casualties and has
taken a certain number of precautions to this end. Here is a
summary of the main plan:

a) No laser will be used. They could easily starts fires in the
   town, and with the local TL this could causes enormous losses.
b) The mercenary force will disembark from shuttles and march
   over the city in the morning. At noon two walkers will perform some show
   of strength (opening fire against a carriage or a tree, for
   example, but trying to avoid casualties) and then they will
   deliver an ultimatum to the town guards: they have until
   midnight to release the hostage.
c) The mercs will explicitly state that they prefer the hostage
   to be alive, but they will settle for a corpse if there is no
   other alternative. This is true, even if a living man would get 
   them an high bonus.
d) No ortillery will be used against the town. There are various
   political and logistic reasons for this. The Mercs will not
   get orbital help of any kind.
e) At midnight the two walkers will open fire against two gates
   and try to enter the city. The third one (which is under the
   river) will enter the city and re-emerge inside, spreading more
   caos. The Walkers crews will try to act as a diversive and
   generally limit themselves to property damage, unless fired
   upon.
f) At 00:10 the two Gcarriers will fly over the city and then
   attack the island, releasing 20 combat ready troops which will
   try to conquer the mansion and look for the prisoner and/or the
   ruler of the city.
   
What would you do if you were the PC?
There are 3 PCs, armed with sidearms and laser carbines (their
original mission called for covert investigation instead of full
scale war). They have explosives, tear gas and smokes bombs. A
fourth NPC (retired scout who has married a local) will be able
to help them, but he, too, has no access to heavier weapons.
The gas will probably be of little help against the attackers.

Their biggest asset is their Scout class starship which is
currently hidden on the sea floor just outside the port. They
can reach it with their Air-raft. The ship systems have been shut
down, so the Mercs will miss them during their recon flights.

So, what would you suggest? I'd like to have as many idea as
possible, in order to better judge any plan the PCs could
devise.

Is it possible, for example, to use the starship Laser against
the G-Carriers? 

What about mines, boobytraps, using their air-raft as a
weapon...





__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:01:07 -0400
From: "Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com>
Subject: RE: CT/MT Re-Releases

I second this.  Gimme all!  Including magazine articles!  (Like some
older Dragon magazine articles.....)  :-)

Heck, let's toss in the TML archives, as well....

And, let me offer any assistance I may.  I have a scanner.  I have disk
space.  I could even produce a prototype CD-ROM using a CD writer.

- - David
dpaxson@twinight.org

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Volker A. Greimann [SMTP:GREI5001@uni-trier.de]
>Sent:	Tuesday, July 29, 1997 12:10 PM
>To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject:	Re: CT/MT Re-Releases
>
>-> >>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>-> going around.  I can think of at least thirty people that I know first
>hand
>-> who would die to have this type of product.
>Although i don't know so many people who would buy that CD, i figure 
>that by making it in a smaller format, one could also put more on the 
>CD, so Hypertext would be good, PDF would be better (as it retains 
>formatting)(Not scanned directly to PDF, but after editing...). 
>
>Now my suggestion: 
>How about throwing in with Roger from the new DGP and do a joint 
>venture. He wants to do it anyway, so you could split the cost of the 
>work, split the effort in half. The CD would then contain everything 
>from GDW and DGP in one easy volume, be cheaper for you to create. 
>Maybe even contact the authors of the Judges Guild, Fasa Gamelors and 
>Seeker (and others) to include their stuff as well.
>Bwahahahaha, i want it all!!!!!!Everything, Bwahhahahaha!
>   
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>-- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
>---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>
>-----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:12:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: And now, a Traveller trivia question

On 29 Jul 1997, Mark Samuels wrote:

>      Please forgive my ignorance, but could you explain Star Triggers?
>      
>      Mark
>

The star trigger was a high TL device developed by the Darrians, back when
they were at TL 17+. It induces huge flares, almost nova-like, in the star
it was aimed at. The _reason_ the Darrians are no longer at TL17+ is
because the were aiming it at _their_ star when they figured out what it
really did. (IIRC It was originally designed as a stellar probe for
astonomical purposes) They sorta torched themselves.

the Darrians still possess working star triggers. Oddly enough, everyone
leaves them the hell alone. ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:43:18 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

At 10:38 AM 7/29/97 -0400, Scott Quigg wrote:

> One little side note to enlisted
>ranks, the E9 rank Sergeant Major of Sector should be recognized thusly:
> Sergeant Major of Deneb Gerhard Hessler or Sergeant Major of Diaspora.

At that level, everybody should have been warned that MF/SGT Eneri was on
his way from Deneb, and have spent about three weeks scrubbing everything
from the light fixtures down.  

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:55:24 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

At 10:43 AM 7/29/97 -0400, Marc wrote:

>The simplest way is to use pay grades (E and O ranks). When I was in the
>Army, we routinely called soldiers E3 or E4 as their rank. Then someone
>finally got into power who put his foot down and said it was disrepectful
>even of a lower rank to refer to him (or her) by pay grade rather than formal
>rank name. Which is true... that guy worked to get to be Private First Class
>(and we wanted him to work to get to Private First Class) and then we ignored
>it and called him E3.

Among soldiers it does make for a convinent shorthand (I'm E-3, Davis over
there is E-4 promotable, Jimmy got busted to E-1 for telling the Sergeant
Major what he thought of the Army..)  But for higher enlisted ranks, and
formal situations (formations, reporting, etc..) you need the named rank.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:51:36 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

At 10:50 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-29 02:59:29 EDT, you write:
>
><< The Marines *should* use something like you
> listed, but because Marine forces are most usually stationed aboard ship I
> suggest dropping the Captain rank from their structure completely.  In
> fact, how about dropping Captain as a *rank* in the Navy as well?  Take a
> look at the following... >>
>
>So why hasn't the USMC made the change in American practice. Frankly because
>its more fun having tradition and special rules.

C'mon Marc, we're both Army vets.. we *know* the USMC make no sense
whatsoever.  To sound a bit bold, I'm taking this chance to try and give a
little flavor to the Imperial Marines.. eliminating the rank of Captain
might have come from German influences on the early Terran Confederation,
or just have been down during a reorganization  to streamline things.
Remember, our current E1-E9 enlisted structure didn't exist until 1958.

I imagine Sr. Force Lieutenants will be addressed as "Skipper" by their
troops, to show that as far as they are concerned, HE is the commanding
officer around here.  The company S/SGT will be addressed as "Top", Gunnery
Sergeants as "Gunny" and Naval Officers will be called "Sir" only after a
half-second pause to consider if they really deserve it.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:30:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: The Reality Dysfunction (was re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.)

Steve Daniels writes
>First, I'm reading "The Reality Dysfunction: Part I: the Emergence" by
>Peter Hamilton.  I recommend it for hard-sci-fi fans.  It could serve as
>a great resource for TL 15-20 finds/artifacts/etc.

An interesting book; surprisingly travelleresque in some aspects
(jump drives that have to be activated beyond a certain distance from a 
planet, loose interstellar government with member worlds witht their own
sub-governments and militaries, scuzzy free trader/mercenaries.) One could
easily use Traveller (especially TNE) to game in that background if you
added rules for all the biotech stuff (*really* cool biotech starships - 
I should try and write FFS rules for them.) Moderately recommended (the 
actual *plot* is a bit disappointing.) 

Space combat in particular seems very traveller-like; ships with accelerations
of several Gs (no G-comp for most ships), lasers and missiles (elaborately
sophisticated missiles called "combat wasps" are the dominant weapon), no
shields. Some of the space scenes were probably influencing me in writing
my soon-to-be-posted Definitive Sensor Rules. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:52:12 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Random Dates (Reprise)

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>
> That gives one data point in favor of a chart for random date determination.
> 
> Now I'll add a second. I rarely see people actually picking birthdates or
> other important dates in their characters' lives. Everyone could pick dates,
> but I want them to really pick dates, and the random chart is a push to do
> that .
> 
> I accomplish that by making it part of the procedure. It just happens to take
> a page to do it.

I agree that there should be a standard, random method to determine
dates. Dates are important for aging. If we get picky enough to count
cold sleep weeks (we should) then it's necessary to have a random method
to determine birth dates.

One thing I thought about, though, was why should everyone start their
first term at 18? There are late bloomers that start school later, or
are held back a grade or two, and there are early bloomers who wiz
through school skipping grades... perhaps a random element to the year
could be implemented? 

Maybe 2d6, with a 2 signifying -1 year, and a 12 signifying +1 year?

Also, wouldn't certain races start at different ages? Has that been
taken into account? For instance, would Vargr start their first term
younger?

> Marc
> 
> (thanks Glenn)

You're Welcome.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:05:31 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

Leroy Guatney wrote:
[snip]
>You know, someone just aprised me of past discussions about the Droyne,
>among other things.  I do not know what was said here, but my recollection
>of reading _all_ the stuff about the Droyne was that they were not known to
>be collectively one race in M0.  It was only after years of Imperial
>sophonotologists piecing things together that they learned that all these
>worlds scattered about with Chirpers and Droyne, were in fact one race.
>
>Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)

Wow!  That's so cool!  It must give you an absolutely massive hard-on.  I'm
sure I speak for everyone on the list when I say I really, really envy you.

Awed,

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 13:06:03 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1

On 07/29/97 at 10:49 AM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:

>I have restricted waivers to Education. My problem is the Edu3 person who
>applies for a waiver for admission to Grad School (or Medical School)
>without the prerequisite BA. Waiver granted. Go directly to Medical
>School. Advance Edu to 8. Get advanced degree. !

Marc, this is why I DO NOT like the idea of awarding set EDU levels's for
completion of various schools.  If you insist on doing this *please* don't
use EDU as a contributing characteristic in task resolution.  Done this way
EDU can be a description of how much schooling the PC has had, but that's
all.  Every other characteristic measures abilities, but the way you want
to use EDU it measures time sitting in a classroom, and time sitting in a
classroom doesn't measure how well you can use skills you *supposedly*
learned while sitting there.  It just doesn't!  I've argued this point
before and didn't get anywhere, but *please* look at it again.

My suggestion is that the PC gets a +1 to their current EDU on graduation
from University (and various other schools) rather than jump them to some
arbitrary level.  I would limit advances to extremely high EDU levels by
changing the instructions to something like:  

  On Graduation from University, "If EDU is less than 7 then +1."  
  
  On Graduation from Grad School, "If EDU is less than 8 then +1."
  
  On Graduation from Med School, "If EDU is less then 9 then +1."  etc

This way a low EDU PC would improve from time in schools, but their EDU
would still be lower than a medium or high EDU PC.  A PC with naturally
high EDU stays a high EDU PC with all the benefits that entails, but
doesn't increase to EDU-monster levels.  Whether you should limit Honors
EDU awards this way or not, I'm not sure.

About the wavers, I see two possiblities:

A. You could just require a seperate Waver for *each* of the prereqs needed
to get into a school.  With Med School you have two prereqs:  BS or BA and
Int 9+.  Lord Duphus (SOC 12, EDU 3) wants to get in and has neither of the
prereq, so he has to perform a waver roll for each, the 1st at < (12-1) and
the 2nd < (12-2).  He has very good odds of getting in, but those wavers
are starting to build up on him, and if you don't arbitrarily boost his EDU
to 9, he'll end up be a pretty poor doctor. (Think Frank Burns.  ;->)

B. You could disallow wavers against certain kinds of prereqs.  Perhaps you
can wave an attribute level, but not a prior degree.  This way Lord Duphus
would have to go through University to get that BS/BA (probably on a waver
or two), before doing the Med School (again probably with a waver or two).

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:30:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-Releases

Marc wrote:
> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
> material.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
> 
> Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
> 

Hypertext or PDF is the way to go with this kind of thing, IMHO.  As for
the scanning and converting part, why not steal a page from TSR?  They got
volenteers to scan and OCR the modules they put out on the web, no doubt
saving themselves a lot of time and money.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 13:28:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

On 07/29/97 at 10:46 AM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:

>In a message dated 97-07-29 03:02:05 EDT, you write:

><<  If all the CT books were on CD, I'd cheerfully pay $50 or 60
> bucks for it, or $20/disk for a 3 or 4 disk set - and I already
> have all but one LBB. I may be crazy, but I have the money, and

Yeah, same here, I'd buy it.  I have virtually all the CT books, but I
don't have much MT stuff.  I'd love to find a copy of World Builder's
Handbook..yes, I know it's DGP, not GDW, but I'd still love to find a copy.


>CD pressing costs are not a real problem. The problem is the scanning and
>manipulation. Scan pages. OCR. Check to see they are right. What about
>illos? How are tables formatted? What new text needs to be added.

>Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images
>and the text could be provided as well.

I should think so.  I'd be happy with good JPEG images of every page, and
all the text in simple ASCII format.

Images in JPEG or GIF could be printed as a graphic or run through a
personal OCR program and edited, and ASCII text is *always* good. Sure
ASCII isn't sexy, but it *is* universal, easily printable, storable,
compressable, editable, and searchable. Once you start applying *any*
preformatting you start making it hard for *somebody* to handle the
document. Give me pure text, and *I'll* format it. Shoot, WORD and WP have
automatic formatting that works pretty well for heaven's sake. ;->

PDF is OK, but frankly I'm not all that enamored with it.  I've never had
much luck printing pdf files on dotmatrix printers and even with better
readers like Ghostscript screen displays are clunky..on my system anyway.  

HTML *looks* better on my screen, but doesn't always print well, and if you
use HTML make sure you don't use the latest and greatest version. Stick to
*very* simple formatting, no frames, no tables! Yes, almost everybody has a
browser, but the browsers we all have aren't all equally advanced or work
alike.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1622
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1623



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Finding Comets (& other stuff) in Deep Space
Re: Bounty hunting
Re: Noble Lands
cd rom project
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
FTL Phenomena
Whatever happened to the Sayat? ...
More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..
Re: Tactical Scenario
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: CD costing
An Officer and a Gentleman
Beginnings v0.93beta (DOS) is out...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:15:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Finding Comets (& other stuff) in Deep Space

I'd like to toss in my two cents worth on the thread of deep space.  
The way my characters usually find stuff in deep space is as follows.  

  0) Preparations: 

    a) Make *certain* your ship has enough jump fuel and provisions.  

    b) Remove the thermonuclear warhead from a nuclear-detonation-laser 
      missile.  Rig the warhead for remote control (command) detonation 
      and for production of radio/maser waves (instead of the usual xrays 
      generated for the laser system).  

  1) Jump to a particular coordinate in deep space.  

  2) Place the warhead outside the ship.  Activate its beacon.  

  3) Jump back to the system being used as your base of operations.  
    Refuel.  Restock provisions (as needed).  

  4) Jump back to the deep space coordinate (hex number) but aim for a
    point 10 to 50 AU away from the warhead.  

  5) Have your Passive EMS sensor array standing by.  Send the "detonate" 
    command to the warhead.  

  6) The warhead detonates.  The radio/maser waves bounce off any object 
    within several hundred AU, and the "echoes" are picked up by your 
    Passive EMS array, giving you a position fix on these objects.  

That's it, in a nutshell.  Basically, you use an H-bomb as a very powerful
radar pulse.  :-) 

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:12:55 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Bounty hunting

At 03:46 PM 7/23/97 +0100, you wrote:
>
>I have been thinking about starting a campaign in which the players are
>bounty hunters (agents). Given the maxim that the imperium rules the space
>between the stars and not the member worlds, do people think there will be
>a niche for bounty hunters fulfilling imperial arrest warrants by hunting
>down fugitives taking refuge on member worlds?

As I see it, worlds are required to assist the Imperium in upholding the
laws of the Imperium.  It is up to the individual planet how much they want
to help, and up to the Imperium how much it wants to grief the planet as a
result.

Crimes are divided in the Imperial code into high crimes, which always rate
death or life imprisonment, felonies, which usually rate some years on a
prison planet, and misdemeanors, which rate lesser penalties.  Someone with
an Imperial felony is barred from holding command on an Imperial warship,
and is often barred from carrying weapons on member planets.

The Imperium may not recognize all of the high crimes and felonies of
member planets, likewise, a member planet may not recognize the Imperial
crimes.  If the planet chooses not to recognize it, the Imperium may swear
out warrants, and use eminent domain to get it enforced regardless, and may
use that to protect the people who enforce Imperial law.  (In my universe,
the Imperium has eminent domain over all crimes, if it chooses to exert it.
 Often, that is politically unwise.)  The Imperium especially prefers
member worlds to execute murderers, and soon, as then it does not need a
full court system, nor does it become a bone of contention.

Note that executions on member worlds are subject to Imperial review, and
that Imperial review often comes with a free Battleship attached.

Nobles, in general, are acting representatives of the justice system, and
that a member planet is required to render appropriate honors to Imperial
nobles.  Wise planets often include legal enforcement powers in those
honors.  In many cases, the planet and the Imperium will arrange for senior
legal officials on the planet to get Imperial noble titles, which leads to
the Imperium having a pretty good way of getting the planetary justice
system to do what it wants.

Bounty hunters are a way for a planet to get a law enforced on someone who
skipped the planet.  The Imperium supports this because it lets them put a
layer of deniability over things - "Sr. Ricardo was acting as a private
citizen and registered bounty hunter when he dragged your president 8 pc.
to Sylea, where he faces extortion charges.  Why yes, Ricardo is a Marine,
but he was on extended leave.  No, Naval Intelligence has no special
interest in this case."

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:20:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Noble Lands

At 12:09 AM 7/21/97 -0400, Marc wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-20 20:57:15 EDT, you write:
><< What right does the Emperor have to grant land *outside* the Imperium?

>The same right the Pope, or the King of <insert name here> did. In the
>expectation that the grantee would bring that territory into the fold, so to
>speak.

Dangerous as all hell, though.  Any planet which hears that nobles are
going to be appointed over their heads arbitrarily is going to think
seriously about some warmongering.  (This may not bother Cleon and co., and
might explain why they bypassed all of the valuable systems in their mad
expansion.)  On the other hand, if it was presented as a way of turning
your local authorities into Imperium-wide ones, then they locals might take
notice.

I phrase it as "any world which joins the Imperium will receive a certain
number of patents, of which some will be filled by the Imperial
negotiators, some by the Imperial functionaries, and most by citizens of
the world as determined by the course of negotiations."  On the other hand,
any world joining is required to give up some fraction of the surface, some
fraction of the near space, and some fraction of the planets in the system
to Imperial exploitation.

Definitions first: Nearspace is anything from edge of atmosphere to 100
diameters, farspace is beyond 100 diameters, airspace is the atmosphere,
and surface is the obvious.

Planets give up about 10% of their surface and 5% of their GNP to the
Imperium.  The Imperium can use this to create noble fiefs, or for other
nefarious purposes.

Any place a planet cannot reach and protect is up for grabs, in most cases.

I divide worlds into several categories:

Category I - Uninhabited: these worlds can be owned lock, stock, and
barrel.  Any chartered company which files an application can get virtually
total and complete access to it.  The Imperium may demand a fraction of the
surface, or they may demand a share in the ownership of the company
controlling it.

The Imperium may recognize several claimants to a Category I world, in
which case, they must share the surface reasonably peaceably.  This can get
very ugly.

More often, the Imperium does an audit to find out what capability the
proposed owners have to control nearspace, farspace, and the world itself.
If the company will commit to defending against pirates, and so on, then
the Imperium will usually grant them control over whatever bodies they lay
claim to.

Depending on the economic assessment of those bodies, the Imperium will
demand a certain tax levy.  It is very much in the interest of the owners
to make that levy.  If they fail to improve the world appropriately, or the
Imperium feels they cannot control it properly, they may rescind control of
certain parts of it, or at least drop Imperial backing.

You can dramatically improve your position, and even give them force of law
by offering a portion or the world surface and any nearby celestial bodies
to the Imperium in perpetuity for scout and naval facilities.  In addition,
if you give more land over to the Imperium than is required by law, they
will place noble estates on it, and then protect you proportionately more.
The risk, of course, is that the nobles will then be above your own law.

In general, if you have a decent fleet of SBDs and defenses, then you can
easily lay claim to an uninhabited world.  Trying to get the entire system
requires showing that you have the population and the means to hold it, and
this is very unlikely for less than a hundred million people at tech 12.

It is very much in the interest of the colonizing group to become an
Imperial power as soon as possible, as then they are only responsible for
preventing piracy and performing reasonable rescue.  Two pirate 800t
cruisers might be enough to summon the Navy, or at least get an outpost
moved there.

The person or company who brings such a world in is likely to have several
dozen knighthoods created, with a Barony above them.  The Baron will be in
charge of exploitation of the world until the population rises.

Class 2 - pre space flight, ex Imperial:  These worlds have no claim beyond
their atmosphere.  The Imperium does not have a prime directive, but does
not wish to unduly displace native peoples.  As they are outside the
Imperium, there are few rules on your behavior, but accusations of genocide
are not taken lightly.

Once you have a recognized trade agreement, you may be appointed the
Imperial negotiator.  This will allow you to form binding agreements with
the world.  One might think this is a bit biased, as you stand to profit
the most, but the Imperium wants members.  They will demand that the people
in question be aware of the rights/responsibilities, but there is little
they can do if you decide to exploit them, as long as you do not go over
the line.

If a trading company gets an exclusive trading contract, and they have the
resources as noted in the Class I section, then they can apply to become
the government of the planet - this will, of course, involve the
cooperation and co-opting of the present government.

It is likely that such a planet will be made into 3 Baronies, with several
dozen knighthoods.  The Imperium will consider it appropriate for the
current rulers of the planet to acquire one of those Baronies, and many of
the knighthoods.  One of the baronies in question will be turned over to
the Imperium to administer as they see fit, along with a number of
knighthoods.

Class III: pre space flight, Imperial.

As class II, save that they are better defended by the Imperium, and you
have more recourse if someone tries to take over.

Note that, in general, class Ii planets have title to only those other
bodies in the system that they have physical presence on.

Class IV: Nearspace capable:  These represent worlds which are capable of
defending the home planet, but cannot control the entire system.

These will either be near TL12, but with a pop of 6 or less, or they will
be higher pop, but with TL of 9 or less.  (high pop planets can often buy
sufficient resources to control and defend their planets.)

Such planets have a thousandth the GPP of a Sylea, and thus are not
considered terribly important, save for future development.  Since they are
reasonably populous, they will often have up to several hundred Baronies on
the surface, and several thousand knights.  It is possible that these will
be assembled into a County.  If this is done, the County will own half the
land given to the Imperium, and lesser nobles the rest.  The lesser nobles
pay fees to the Count.

Worlds that have space flight, whether through native technology or not,
may apply to the Imperium for Nearspace control permits.  If you have such
permits, then you can buy warships, and are expected to patrol those areas.
 A world with a Nearspace permit has roughly 10% of the planetary bodies in
the system under its control.

Class V Farspace Control:
High tech worlds with pop 8, or average tech worlds with pop 9 are usually
given farspace control permits.  They are expected to control the system
they are in, and as a result, they have immediate title to roughly a third
of it, as well as those parts they have a permanent presence on.  You will
almost certainly see several Counties come out of this.  Particularly nice
ones may be a Marquis' seat.

Class VI System Control:
High tech worlds with pop 9, and any space flight capable worlds with pop A
are usually given system control permits.  They have title to most of the
system.  They also have to defend it, so most of them are quite willing to
let people come in and exploit, in return for agreement to be under the
local laws.  This is the kind of world that becomes a Marquis' seat, with
the associate array of Counties, Baronies, and so forth.

Once again, only 10% of the world belongs to the Imperium, but the people
chosen for these positions will often be in a position to purchase up a
great deal more of the planet as time passes, and thus they will grow their
domains.  On the other hand, those people then are responsible for paying a
larger share of the tax burden of the world, so it is in the world's
interest to have noble feifs.

I play it that nobles get a better tax rate than the world would get in
general, and that the world splits the difference, so if the world would
pay 5% of GNP, and a noble would pay 3%, then any lands under noble control
feed 1% of the GNP back into the planetary economy.  In addition, nobles
are expected to improve their feifs and lands, and so must spend a lot of
money improving infrastructure.

On a related note:

I slowed down the M0 expansion a bit, and made the Empire a bit more prone
to use the carrot than the stick.  I feel that a world should want to join
the Imperium, and should be encouraged.  As usual for the young 3I, the
motivators should be economic first, military second.

I have vacillated wildly on how many nobles should exist in the Imperium,
and whether they are subordinate to each other.  My present feel is that
the feudal links are very short - every noble is individually responsible
to the Emperor.  For organizational purposes, higher ranking nobles are
given the ability to command lower ranking ones, and certain nobles are
allowed to create ones under them, but the power is limited.  For example,
the commander of an order of knighthood is allowed to induct people into
his order, and those new Imperial knights do not have to travel to Sylea to
be recognized by Cleon.  They will, though, be published on the Birthday or
Holiday list.

While many of Cleon's policies are made for the short term, I feel that the
majority are fairly forward looking.  In the compressed time scale
Traveller uses, the expansion phase ends by 200-300, as the number of
settled worlds vastly outweighs the number of new colonies.  This is soon
enough that they likely made plans for what happens when all the worlds
they can reach have joined:

Quick digression:
Population:
	roughly 1/36 has 50 billion people
	roughly 2/36 has 5 billion people
	roughly 3/36 has 500 million people
	roughly 30/36 are too small to matter in this calculation

As a result, 36 worlds should have a population of roughly 61 billion.

A subsector is the largest unit that can have personal administration.  I
believe that all nobles within a subsector should know of each other.  It
should have 35-40 worlds, which leads to three high pop worlds in that
area.  I figure that a high pop world justifies a Marquis, several Counts,
and a few dozen Barons.  There should therefore be 75 Barons, 12 Counts, 3
Marquis, and a Duke in the region from those worlds, plus another 60 or so
Barons from backwater worlds.  There will also be thousands of knights in
this region, some of whom are used to being the highest nobles on their world.

A sector, which is the largest unit that really can be administered, has
about 600 worlds.  Nobles will know the big names, but that is about it.
In this area, expect to have 20 Dukes, 100 Marquis, 500 Counts, 5000
Barons, and perhaps a hundred thousand knights.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:50:00 -0400
From: John M Gardner <gardclan@erie.net>
Subject: cd rom project

The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>  
>  Scan every page as an image.
>  Scan every page and convert to text.
>  Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>  Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>  material.
>  Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>  
>  Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>  
>  Comments?
>  

Marc,

Being that I do this stuff for a living, I just have to toss in my
opinion too ;>)  

The problem with scanning text as graphics is the generaly poor
resolution which will occur with the output.  Even at 1200dpi, text
rasterizes so badly that it becomes unreadable on most median resolution
printouts (dot matrix or inkjets, like the kind most of us can afford). 
OCR is definately necessary to retain any quality in the doccuments at
all.  Besides, text doccuments with graphics embedded or linked take up
a VERY small fraction of the space required of large scale graphics
files.  One page of text scanned in at a 2 bit mode (black and white
line drawing) at 1200 dpi takes up roughly five to ten megabytes of
space in its raw form, last time I checked.

The flipside of this is that I have yet to use an ocr package which
didn't require LOTS of post scan editing.  There is no quick and dirty
way to do something like this properly.  

I also have to agree with the proponents of using pdf.  We often send
large graphics intensive files to our printers using pdf to avoid
problems with fonts and linked files, etc.  The compression ratios are
unreal (if you don't mind downsampling things rather aggressively), but
the printouts are still of good quality.  

That's my opinion, anyway...  for what it's worth.

BTW, that'll be $.02 please.

- ---John

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:53:23 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

> Sergeants as "Gunny" and Naval Officers will be called "Sir" only after a
> half-second pause to consider if they really deserve it.


No comment.  (Just a half-second of massive orbital bombardment on all
of your emplacements). 

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:16:36 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: FTL Phenomena

I've finally found some references which shed some mirk on this subject.
I'm not sure whether it confirms or negates my previous posts.  I'l let
those of you who are interested decide.

Please refer to:

http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html#quantum

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:25:40 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Whatever happened to the Sayat? ...

Kenji, a while back, you posted some stuff about this minor race
of yours - you never got beyond part II.  Last night, while
reorganizing my files, I found what you had posted.  Can we have
the rest?
- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:22:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..

Marc,

Yet more thoughts/observations and questions on T4.1!

1) Why do the marines not have an OTC or Military Academy equivalent? I
would have thought that they would, especially as they are the elite
fighting troops?

2) Would it be a good idea to put in some travel time if the Military
acadamies and Naval acadamies are at fixed locations? This is more relevant
towards M1100, when travel to Core would take a significant period.

3) Why do the careers start with O2, not O1?

4) The nobles section is unclear - how do knighthood and elevation effect
noble ranks and skills?

5) Does elevation gain an extra skill, or are nobles skills-light to
account for their other advantages?

6) In O3 Entertainers comments section, Dance 10 is refered to as Dande 10.

7) I assume that the mustering out benefits will be detailed separately (ie
what 'Lands' are).

8) The MO when injured entry is unclear. Do injured characters (eg a 3 term
character) gain double benefits (2 per term...)?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:03:22 GMT
From: lansford@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:02:31, Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it> wrote:

>The City:
>--------
>It's a lightly fortified "medieval" coast town. The local chief
>mansion (where the hostage is held) is on a small island facing
>the main port. Local troops are loyal and motivated but can't
>really compete (they have Tl-3/4 weaponry and armours, with a
>limited number of Tl-5 rifles).
>
>The Mercenaries:
>---------------
>They have 3 walkers (taken by the T2300 equipment guide, if you
>are unfamiliar with these, just think of the 2 legged walkers in
>the _Return of the Jedi_ movie). Two of them will attack the
>main gates, the third one will enter the city walking on the
>river bed (remaining underwater until the last moment).  They
>are armed with lasers(see down for more on weaponry, though) and
>HMGs, have a rigid armor of 9 and can operate for 15+ hours.

Against that weaponry the locals and PC's are going to be severely
overmatched. Carbines won't damage the armored walkers and I doubt
artillery would manage to hit them (hitting moving targets wasn't a
forte of old artillery).

>The walkers will act as a diversion, and have been chosen in
>order to give the maximum psychological effect on the natives
>("Iron Covered Monsters! Aieeee!").

TL 3 and 4 locals won't be overawed by ironclad land vehicles. Such
things were considered in the Civil War and naval ships used iron
armor as well. They may not be able to damage them but I think the
psyche affect will be minimal.

>What would you do if you were the PC?
>There are 3 PCs, armed with sidearms and laser carbines (their
>original mission called for covert investigation instead of full
>scale war). They have explosives, tear gas and smokes bombs. A
>fourth NPC (retired scout who has married a local) will be able
>to help them, but he, too, has no access to heavier weapons.
>The gas will probably be of little help against the attackers.

They won't be able to do much against either the walkers or the armor
clad mercs. Their best bet will be to hopefully escape with the target
while confusion reigns, and hope they can reach the scout ship before
anyone realizes what they've done. Once in the ship they can either
escape or try something with its weapons.

>So, what would you suggest? I'd like to have as many idea as
>possible, in order to better judge any plan the PCs could
>devise.
>
>Is it possible, for example, to use the starship Laser against
>the G-Carriers?=20

The carriers are small targets and in an atmosphere, definitely a
tough target to hit with a shipboard weapon.=20

>What about mines, boobytraps, using their air-raft as a
>weapon...

Using boobytraps or mines might encourage reprisals by the mercs, and
would probably not cause much in the way of casualties among them
anyway. Combat armor is tough and probably has sensors to detect
explosives. What TL is the armor anyway?

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:31:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

Marc wrote:

>In a message dated 97-07-28 02:03:19 EDT, Bob Sanders writes:
>
><< Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. >>
>
>I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
>Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
>else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
>and modules.
>
>The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
>Scan every page as an image.
>Scan every page and convert to text.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
>material.
>Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.
>
>Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.
>
>Comments?

*Scan every page as an image*

Volker wrote:

>How about making it available in Adobe Acrobat .pdf format?
>You could scan it and let Acrobat do the rest (afaik)

Yes! Acrobat retains the format, is readable in Windows, MacOS and UNIX,
and more importantly does allow direct scanning and conversion to pdf
files. (Unfortunately not on my non-PowerPC Mac ;-) )

(sorry lost name of this poster):
>IMHO, just scan the material into images, then have something like an
>autogenned set of HTML pages.  This offers the convenience of going to a
>specific page without a great deal of overhead.  Store the images in uniquely
>named files and match the images with pages.  Accepting that scanning the
>pages is a great deal of manual work, the rest of the process could be fairly
>well automated.  Given a standard naming convention, once the images are
>scanned and a format is defined, the members of the list could help with the
>assembly process (Yes, that means I'm volunteering to help with the HTML)
>then forward the results to you for compilation.

Acrobat is superior to HTML which varies depending on the browser that you
have (IIRC).

>I would pefer the HTML format as it is easily handled. There is no need of
>extremly hyperlinked such as many web site. A simple but complete index
>pointing on different book/chapters/titled paragraphs is sufficient. Simple
>HTML is better.

You can easily hyperlink with Acrobat 3 (draw button/hotspot, select view,
and click okay) very easily.

Okay, I'll admit it - I have been working on a collection of Library Data
for use in my game - at present this is mainly the Imperial Encyclopedia,
which I OCRd. Originally I was going to use HTML to generate the file (and
bought PageMill to do so). However, after playing with the text file and
Pagemill I decided that the variations in formating just made it more
hassle than I needed. So I bought Acrobat 3, and regenerated the file as a
pdf. I then experimented with hotlinks, which were really easy to
implement. The current version of the file doesn't have them as I am still
adding new data (HTML would be easier for a partial data structure).
However, I will be hyperlinking when I complete it...

To summarise - Acrobat is designed to build files of the type we are
discussing. HTML has other advantages, but would require formating and a
higher degree of work. Acrobat allows you to print the text in paper
exactly as it is scanned, something I would want to do for sections I want
to use. I agree that the ability to search would be great (and I use my
scanned text file to do so occasionally), but it requires a hell of a lot
more work to implement.

We seem to have two conflicting desires here - one of having the old
Traveller material available and a second one of having the data available
in a much more useable state (hyperlinked and searchable). If we want to
have these files on CD-ROM quickly, I think that Acrobat is the only way to
go forward. This may have turned into long rant in favour of Acrobat, but
it's based on experience that I've gained trying to convert my own files.
No doubt some of you will disagree ;-)

Oh yes - the CD should be dual format Mac/PC... and I want a copy! ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:31:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: CD costing

>>CD pressing costs are not a real problem. The problem is the scanning and
>>manipulation. Scan pages. OCR. Check to see they are right. What about illos?
>>How are tables formatted? What new text needs to be added.
>>
>>Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images and
>>the text could be provided as well.

Hello,
  For most would-be users some form of non-image file for the actual
text would be extremely desirable. Tables might need some conversion
or need to be organized separately with excellent cross-referencing.
Necessary graphics (maps, deckplans) wouldn't be a problem as image
files; pure artwork might as well be scanned in, if it matters.

  If any but the most basic editing (probably the best economic choice;
after all, we're mostly busy collecting the old stuff, so a digital
re-release shouldn't be unacceptable) is done it might be highly useful
to tag each section or page as public/player or ref info, to ease ref
hand-out production for game use.

  Re-writing it as hypertext may very well end up with an uneconomic
product. The need for such can largely be obviated by duplicating the
Library Data from each publication either in an additional LD section
or by adding them to the two LD Supplements (preferably the former).

  Presumably M:1100 is a long way down the road. Such a CD (or CD's)
need not interfere with M:1100 product sales down the road (depending
on CD drive use among your customer base, and pirating), and could
actually help, especially if IG intends to concentrate on new product
rather than re-releases.

  What about security? Some way to impede a sudden deluge of pirated
material from the CD's hitting the net would be desirable, if practical.
I've heard some suggestions, but nothing authoritative.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:54:38 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: An Officer and a Gentleman

> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)

> Here's an idea I've had bouncing around for a while: should officer 
> ranks have an associated minimum Social Standing? Is it reasonable for 

No.  Making sense of your statistics is one of the joys of
role-playing.  The baron's daughter who has never gotten a commission
and the mechanic's son who has risen to command a starship or a
battalion are challenging and enjoyable characters to play.

Aside from role-playing, however, allowing social status and rank to
float independently shows the tension in the Imperial military between
the meritocratic and aristocratic tendencies.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:20:08 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Beginnings v0.93beta (DOS) is out...

Alright, fellow Space Cadets, Beginnings v0.93beta for MS-DOS is now
on Pan-Imperia's web site. Beginnings is a CharGen program for the T4
main rules, and will generate characters in the T4 rule book through the
mustering out process and either print them out or save them to a file. 

Thanks to the many people who have tried out the previous versions and
reported on bugs and given suggestions for improving Beginnings! With
your help, I think this thing is *almost* ready to be prettied up and have
that dreaded v1.0 slapped on it  :)

NEW ADDITIONS TO v0.93 :

1) Fixed Benefits Bug, benefits now reinitialized for each character.

2) Fixed OTC/NOTC Bug, OTC/NOTC status now reinitialized after each
character.

3) Added option limiting Milieu 0 characters to a max Homeworld TL of
C (12).

4) Mustering Out now shows the cash and benefit tables that you have
to choose from for each roll.

5) Fixed Rank Bug where a) a character's obtained rank was not carried
over between careers, b) characters did not get credit for promotions
within a career, e.g. a Lieutenant would get promoted to Lieutenant,
and c) Navy enlisted characters now have rank listed on save file/
print out.

6) Added ability to choose whether or not you wish to try for a
commission, for those who wish to create enlisted characters.

7) In mustering out, multiple results of Gun, Blade, or Weapon will
allow you to choose between taking the actual physical weapon or
choosing to take additional skill in the appropriate category.

8) Multiple mustering out results of Free Trader under the Merchant
career will deduct 10-year increments from the assumed 40-year mort-
gage; this will be noted on the save file/print out.

9) Fixed the Grad/Med school procedure; now if a character is eli-
gible for both and is turned down by his first pick, he/she is given a
choice of trying for the other instead of going straight to picking
a career.

10) Characters now earn a skill for every year served during a term in
which they suffer an injury.

ADDITIONS SLATED FOR FUTURE VERSIONS:

1) Add the Diplomat and Bureaucrat careers from Pocket Empires.
- -- This will be added to the next version.

2) Many interface changes for aesthetics and ease of use. -- This will be
in version 1.0, as soon as the code gets nailed down and bug free.

3) Other processes for gaining skills will be enabled, including the 
ability to pick skills instead of rolling, and a fully random version.
- -- As work and family allow me to add them.

Once again, thanks to everyone! Your comments and suggestions have
been very appreciated!

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1623
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 30 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1624



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question
CT/MT/TNE CD content
Re: Traveller on CD
Possibly a silly idea...
Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1
Re: Bounty Hunters and the Law
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: What is Canon?
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1
Re: cd rom project
GSBAG
Return to Twilights Peak?????
Imperial Exemption Question
Re: What is canon
CD Size
CD prototype

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 20:13:25 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

On 07/29/97 at 05:53 PM,  Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net> said:

>> Sergeants as "Gunny" and Naval Officers will be called "Sir" only after a
>> half-second pause to consider if they really deserve it.

My Brother in Law is a Marine NCO, and he says a Gunny is too
*professional* to let any Naval Officer know what he thinks of them...good
or bad. 

>No comment.  (Just a half-second of massive orbital bombardment on all of
>your emplacements). 

Remember it was *Army* that made the crack, not Marine. ;->

Eris,
    NOTA..that's None Of The Above. ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:29:01 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: And now, a Traveller trivia question

At 22:42 28/07/97 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-28 20:27:58 EDT, you write:
>
><< > I never understood why the Zhodani didn't subvert the Darrians to gain
> > access to the remnant TL16 technology even though they must have
>  >>
>
>The thought was that the Star Trigger remained as a deterrent to overt action
>by Zho against Darrians. Even if the Zho took over Darrian, could they be
>sure they had caught a squadron of Star Triggers?
>
>Better not to take the chance.
>
>Marc
>
>
On the other hand, maybe they tried and they failed.  Alien Book 8
(Darrians) tell us that the Special Arm is a third arm of the military of
the Confederation.  It is charged with the maintenance and operation of the
star trigger.  The Enhanced Naval Character generation table indicates, as
one skill that can be obtained by the Special Arm: telepathy.  Unless this
is a typo, it means something.  Considering that the Confederation is
outside of the Imperium and that it is a tolerant society (page 18), it is
possible that the governement makes more use of psionics to protect its
greatest secret.  They must make sure that the Sword World will not learn
about the fact that the trigger doesn't work (at least until some time after
the Collapse and the beginning of the Regency).

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:40:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: CT/MT/TNE CD content

Marc Miller:
> CD pressing costs are not a real problem. The problem is the scanning and
> manipulation. Scan pages. OCR. Check to see they are right. What about illos?
> How are tables formatted? What new text needs to be added.
> 
> Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images and
> the text could be provided as well.

  This probably a useful idea. Heck, after scanning you have the images
anyways, so if the room is there why not use it. Nostalgia buffs will love
it. It may also negate the need for "extra" images holding the pix
accompanying the text.

Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com>:
> Volker Greimann:
> >Now my suggestion: 
> >How about throwing in with Roger from the new DGP and do a joint 
> >venture. He wants to do it anyway, so you could split the cost of the 
> >work, split the effort in half. The CD would then contain everything 
> >from GDW and DGP in one easy volume, be cheaper for you to create. 
> >Maybe even contact the authors of the Judges Guild, Fasa Gamelors and 
> >Seeker (and others) to include their stuff as well.
> >Bwahahahaha, i want it all!!!!!!Everything, Bwahhahahaha!
> 
> I second this.  Gimme all!  Including magazine articles!  (Like some
> older Dragon magazine articles.....)  :-)

   I would be especially interested in all the Challenge stuff; even if
this means a separate CD.

   Now...what are your plans for 2300 AD? <bg>

- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:43:12 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

> Yeah, same here, I'd buy it.  I have virtually all the CT books, but I
> don't have much MT stuff.  I'd love to find a copy of World Builder's
> Handbook..yes, I know it's DGP, not GDW, but I'd still love to find a copy.


Eris,

I have world builders handbook-both New Era and DGP.  Not for sale, but
as mine is a photocopy of an out of print item...
I have about everything else too between me and my clone.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:37:09 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Possibly a silly idea...

*****************************************
People a while ago were complaining at a lack of 'human input' in
THUDDD.
Craig responded with the 'literary THUDDD' aka the noble's yacht.
However,
this didn't seem to get as big a response..
*****************************************

....But as was pointed out, the voting response was much higher.  My
thoughts are this:  maxed out creations by our beloved gearheads (and I
mean this in the most positive way) with the standard write about
marginally better firepower and ship X having 1G more than Y are
interesting from a technical point of view.  But while sitting here
reading the TML you (actually I should say "I"--I should not speak for
anyone else) often don't have the time or the enthusiasm to pour over
specs and compare and then vote on each and every entry.  Most often, I
just clip, paste, and save.  Later when I need, say a trader, then I
look over these and then take a scan at the minute details.  Also, when
it comes time to vote you have to lay all the posts out side by side and
spend an evening comparing.  I unfortunately rarely had time to do so.
(By the way, this post should in no way be construed as a recommendation
that maxed out ships should not be done on THUDDD....such ships are very
useful to me later although the designers may not get the "instant
gratification of seeing my vote).  In short, In my opinion, while many
people would whittle away the hours over a maxed out design of their
own, others many not have the time or attention span to digest all the
info until much later (and the time to vote has past)

On the yacht design....most of the info was just such a good read. 
Futhermore the time spent in detailing appearances made each ship
uniquely stick out in my mind (who can forget the image of releaving
yourself while simultaneously being able to view the vastness of space
through a hugh forward window.....or better yet, on the ground, waving
to the starport controllers :-} )  I got a "feel" for the ship almost
imediately.  Maybe thats just because I don't have a finely honed
"engineering" sense...but I'd wager that I am not alone.

So after all that I have said above I would like to say this:

Thank you to the gearheads who make all the cutting edge designs--I
appreciate your effort and am glad to have many a library of fine ships
to pull out when I need them...and forgive me for not getting the time
to review them before voting deadlines........but also, I for one would
like to see further "human input" THUDDD competitions every now and
again.

Thanks

TT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:47:24 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> A second concern on the same chart concerns the missing "I."  Sure,
> "I" and
> "L" can be confused, but please don't skip "I."  It's used in sector
> charts
> after all, and it's a perfectly nice little letter.  ;->

I concur.  You can't spell "shit" without out it!   ;-)

(sorry, but it had to be said)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:57:02 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bounty Hunters and the Law

Nicholas Sylvain wrote:

> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:29:15 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Bounties, and the hunting thereof
>

[snippage]

> >In NA, bounty hunters are private citizens who usually work for bail
> >bondsmen.  They are not licensed, nor do they have any authority
> >beyond that of a private citizen.  They simply have the skills to
> >track down bail jumpers.
>
> Not exactly.  There is a relatively obscure Federal law that grants
> bounty hunters some greater leeway than that normally allowed a
> private citizen (but I can't find anything handy... maybe someone
> else out there does?)

I seem to remember something about this.  I'll do some quick research
tomorrow at the office (Denton Texas District Attorney's Office).

>
>
> >But Imperial authority doesn't go past the starport gate.  Much in
> the
> >same way the FBI has to be invited to take part in most cases, the
> >Imperium cannot run roughshod over its allegedily sovergn members.
>
> True, but as a practical matter, with the degree of federalization of
> the criminal law nowadays, if the FBI wants in on a case they can
> invite themselves in, locals be damned.  I would suspect the Imperial
> authorities would have a similar power (rarely used, not publicized,
> but darned useful in a crunch).

Yup!  They're doing this right now for a drug-dealer who we arrested on
family violence.  We get to try him first on the misdemeanor but the
Feds get him a day or tow after.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:03:38 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 07/29/97 at 10:46 AM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:
>
> >In a message dated 97-07-29 03:02:05 EDT, you write:
>
> ><<  If all the CT books were on CD, I'd cheerfully pay $50 or 60
> > bucks for it, or $20/disk for a 3 or 4 disk set - and I already
> > have all but one LBB. I may be crazy, but I have the money, and
>
> Yeah, same here, I'd buy it.  I have virtually all the CT books,

I'd pay a bit for even photocopies of all the CT books.  (If copied with
permission of course ;-)  I'm not sure about MT.  I skipped these
products completely.  What part of the timeline do they deal with?  (No
offense but you can keep TNE)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:19:27 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

I agree with dropping "Captain" from the rank titles.

On another note:  Is any besides me bothered by "Sub-Lieutenant"?  It
sounds worse to me than Lieutenant Junior Grade.  And afterall, is
anyone using real subs?  And if we're going to have "Sub-"s shouldn't we
have "Supra-"s or "Over-"s?  At best, Sub-Lt. sounds like a temporary
rank, similar to Midshipman.  Personally, I can't think of anything
better other than "Junior Lieutenant"  but I don't like it.  (Luckily,
although accepted to the US Naval Academy, I got a scholarship to a
college, and thus escaped any first-hand knowledge of the military ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:17:36 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

Marc Miller writes:

>Reread Foundations of Traveller in the basic T4 book. I use that as a
>reference. That said, I want to retain what has gone before as cannon, and
>find ways to blend it in to what we're doing today. 

   This comment can be interpreted a couple different ways.

   1) Those changes to established canon that have occurred in MMT were
inadvertant and will be corrected over time.

   2) The old material will be manipulated to fit a *reinterpretation*
of the Traveller universe as presented in MMT.

>Sometimes logical extensions of poorly thought out previous material make it
>illogical or untenable, and we have to find ways to disable it.

   Such as?...

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:17:49 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: What is Canon?

William F. Hostman writes:

>Canon is more than just what was written, but also the manner of writing.

   True enough.

>The old CT stuff by GDW presented material as fact of the game universe.
>The MT stuff presented materials as though they were "Current best
>knowledge" (a history of technology term, referring to stuff that you know
>might be wrong, but nothing better fits), with the ref's library data
>presenting "Facts". TNE had no consistent approach; The core rulebook was
>"Fact", the RCVG was "Anecdotal", and H&I was "THis is all BS". RSB was,
>much like MT, pretty well Current Best Knowledge.

   The MT material was presented as "this is the information you as
players know" *and* "this, Referee, is what's really happening" which
appeared in a different section.  True, certain things were not fully
disclosed (i.e. did Lucan really kill his brother?), but those things
that were opinion were generally differentiated from fact.

   In TNE where anecdotal information is presented, it can be counted on
as fact (with one exception noted below).  While there is a certain
perspective being presented (mostly that of the RC), there is no reason
to doubt that what is being presented isn't true.

   The one exception is H&I.  It was the first attempt at true Traveller
Relativism, and as such was very poorly received by TNE fans.  Opinions
of it varied from "interesting literature, worth analyzing" to "a waste
of good paper stock".  Some people got the humor presented within it,
and some people got it--but wished GDW hadn't bothered.  The general
concensus in the end was that if you ignored the zaniness (baseball,
Santa Claus hats, and jingle bells indeed) there was enough in H&I to
make it worth buying (cover price substanially below $22.95).

>Canon is also who wrote it. I give higher weight to GDW Products than
>individual authors (Sorry, Marc). I also give higher weight for MT to DGP
>than to individual authors; read the credits for MT and the staff list for
>DGP and you will see why. Here's my basic hierarchy (Best first)

   Our lists more or less correspond, though I would not rate Traveller
Digest or MegaTraveller Journal nearly as high.  In fact, Dave Nilsen
pretty much reputiated the contents of MTJ #4, and the Regency
Sourcebook just flat states that the whole "Sparklers" episode did not
happen.

>I suppose that T4 should top the list, but I can't quite see it as the same
>environment; the tone of writing is too much like WoD (Vampire, et al);
>nothing is an absolute truth... thus there is no real "canon" there. T4
>encourages wide interpretations, as it's as vague as CT was, but covers
>MUCH MUCH more ground, and in much more depth. (I realize this looks to be
>an oxymoron, but think about it... on three axis: Scope, Depth, truth)

   Sorry to write another "me too", but we are once again in agreement. 
Time will tell just how far off the reservation Marc Miller's Traveller
strays.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:48:58 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

CardSharks@aol.com writes:
>>>>
In a message dated 97-07-28 02:03:19 EDT, Bob Sanders writes:

<< Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc. >>

I count (in CT) approximately 6 rules books, 13 Adventures, 13 Supplements, 6
Double Adventures, 6 Alien Modules, several board games, and who knows what
else. MegaTravellers has at least six 96 page books. TNE has (a lot) of books
and modules.

The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:

Scan every page as an image.
Scan every page and convert to text.
Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, and remove some of the
material.
Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

Each additional step of work calls for a higher budget.

Comments?

Marc
<<<<

OK... caught me typing w/o engaging the brain-housing unit.  I did not
think about the logistics of the problem.  However, not all is lost.
When I get back to the office (currently on the road with a client) I
will look into the different possibilities.  Still not sure what can be
done, but the technology is getting much better. The techno experts are
a the home office. 

So what are we looking at here?  I do not have access to my traveller
books, but I would guess about 100 books with an average of 60 pages. 
600 pages that need to be scanned, converted, edited, categorized with
keywords and sorted into a database type environment.  Is that the
problem? 

Comments?

Bob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:36:10 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes: 

>As Harold, in this thread, eloquently and agreeably put words in my mouth,
>"New _and_ Improved."  It is fair to say that I _do_ think that, and am
>not alone. :)

   But remember Leroy, "new and improved" is a classic advertising
oxymoron.  Something can't be both 'new' and 'improved'.

   While I think everyone would agree that Marc Miller's Traveller is
*new*, getting them to agree that it is an improvement over CT or MT or
TNE is another story altogether.  Given that the final version of the
game hasn't been published yet, the whole issue is still very much up in
the air.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 23:43:16 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: T4.1: CharGen-Prelim 1

On 07/29/97 at 10:47 PM,  Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:

>> A second concern on the same chart concerns the missing "I."  Sure,

>I concur.  You can't spell "shit" without out it!   ;-)

>(sorry, but it had to be said)

Ah geeze!  That's plss poor! ;->

>Bloo

Yeth, and what would Bloo be without the "L", pray teii? Bioo? ;->

Eris, 
    or is that Erls 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:36:46 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: cd rom project

> Traveller-digest wrote:
> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:50:00 -0400
> From: John M Gardner <gardclan@erie.net>
> Subject: cd rom project
>
> Marc,
>
> Being that I do this stuff for a living, I just have to toss in my
> opinion too ;>)
>
> The problem with scanning text as graphics is the generaly poor
> resolution which will occur with the output.  Even at 1200dpi, text
> rasterizes so badly that it becomes unreadable on most median resolution
> printouts (dot matrix or inkjets, like the kind most of us can afford).
> OCR is definately necessary to retain any quality in the doccuments at
> all.  Besides, text doccuments with graphics embedded or linked take up
> a VERY small fraction of the space required of large scale graphics
> files.  One page of text scanned in at a 2 bit mode (black and white
> line drawing) at 1200 dpi takes up roughly five to ten megabytes of
> space in its raw form, last time I checked.
>
> The flipside of this is that I have yet to use an ocr package which
> didn't require LOTS of post scan editing.  There is no quick and dirty
> way to do something like this properly.
>
> I also have to agree with the proponents of using pdf.  We often send
> large graphics intensive files to our printers using pdf to avoid
> problems with fonts and linked files, etc.  The compression ratios are
> unreal (if you don't mind downsampling things rather aggressively), but
> the printouts are still of good quality.
>
> That's my opinion, anyway...  for what it's worth.
>
> BTW, that'll be $.02 please.
>
> - ---John
>
>

Ok, my first post on this subject was a bit flip, now to be a little
serious.

I would LOVE to see this project completed and on the market, that much
is true, but I can also see the downside. My wife's business in art,
mainly old fashion, done by hand art, but it is scanned and reproduced
electronically, and she does some projects completely on the computer.
This is great for me, it let's me play with a couple of flatbeds, color
and laser printers and a few computers (not to mention pays for my ISP
account so I can type with you guys). She isn't familiar, nor am I with
the specifics of Acrobat, other than using the reader function,
(although some of what I'm reading has me thinking!), but she has done
some scanning and OCR fro several jobs.
So I asked her what her opinion was of this project. She reminded me of
a job she worked on when she first started her business. It involved
re-setting the benefits package for a major department store, combining
two booklets of about 20-30 pages each. She used what was state of the
art OCR program (about 6 years ago), I can't remember the name of it and
she doesn't use it any longer. The up shot is she said that even with
the OCR it took about 15  - 30 minutes of proofreading and editing per
page, (by admittedly non-professional but reasonable intelligent proof
readers, myself among them :^) Now I hope that the present state of the
art OCR programs are somewhat better than the one she used for that job,
she nor I know, since we haven't used them since.
This is not to say that I think this project should be set aside, it's
just "looking at the facts". THe conclusion I'm trying to get to is I DO
think it's possible but I have to agree that it would take a lot of
work! Now I've seen 3-4 people that have volunteers (me too, I was
serious about that as well!), and I'm sure there are more. The hints
I've picked up is that some of it has already been done. If Far Future
or IG would  take on the job of co-ordination I would still like to
offer that VOLUNTEER time to scan and proof read.
I now think that PDF is probably the best route. I can't put the work
into that since we  don't (yet) own Acrobat but I could do it up in Word
6 format, the art is no problem, she operated on the Corel 6 platform
and gifs, jpegs and whatnot aren't any problem. Also paper output.
So to wrap this up, I'm willing to scan, proofread, and print (if needed
for additional proof reading). I'll do it from what Traveller products I
still have, (Trav. Book, Trav. Adven., Hivers, Solomani, and Aslan
supplements, and a couple of odd adventure books for CT. The TNE Main
book, FF&S, Path of Tears for that Millieu). On top of this I'll buy the
final product! Now can you beat that deal?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:52:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: GSBAG

Volker A. Greimann said:

> Gesichtskreis means roughly translated: Area of view (although 
> nobody sais that anymore (old usage), but dirctely it means just what 
i>  said: Face- Circle...

My dictionary gives "Horizon" as one less-common alternative translation.
Things change over the years...I understand that Luther's translation of the
bible into German uses the word "Weib" in reference to the virgin Mary, which
now has a slightly perjorative connotation.

Anyway, Horizon Starship Company was what was intended.

Loren Wiseman
   GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:58:04 -0400
From: Tom Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Return to Twilights Peak?????

A while back I posted a question concerning CT Adv #3:  Twilights Peak.
One of the responses I got from a fellow TMLer (Daniel Poulin?--sorry I
have a terrible memory) was that they had put together a "Return to
Twilights Peak" adventure and that they might be coerced into posting it
(or at least send the gist of it privately to those interested).  Please
don't tell me that the RCCC has scared you into silence :-{  (If you are
still worried, I will lend you one of my TL35 RoM battledresses--I have
several dozen--they were common by the end of the 2nd Imp--Since I
started wearing mine, none of my gaming sessions has come under any
sucessful RCCC attack! :-})

Also....Anders if you've played lately and can find the time I would
like to hear how your "life beyond TP" is progressing (I'm not being
obnoxious--just persistent)

Thanks

TT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:28:06 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Imperial Exemption Question

Recently, I saw on TV that some US Army soldiers are under local criminal
investigation in Texas for firing upon a civilian while on border
surveilance; the Army claims that they fired in accordance with their rules
of engagement for the mission they were on at the time.

This got me wondering: Are imperial Military personel immune to local laws
while performing missions under valid orders, and assuming they do not
violate their orders, rules of engagement, and military regulations?

*As I run M1100*, I give nobles, uniformed military under orders, and
Imperial civil servants (i.e.: persons employed in the civil service of the
imperial government)  a limited form of immunity as follows (without real
cannonical basis): They may not be barred from carrying such weapons as are
part of their uniform or duty requirements; they may not be locally
prosecuted for actions that they committed under orders; they may not be
prevented entry or  exit from a world when so ordered by their imperial
superiors.



William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:40:50 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: What is canon

>   1)  `Canon: just don't do it.'
>   2)  Canon: anything published by IG (although this runs into
>   sector-data-vs-history consistency problems).
>   3)  Canon: The LBB's  --- same as it ever (or once?) was.
>   4)  Canon: The Word of Marc.

How about
	5) Canon: The bits you like the best, and throw away the rest

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:02:54 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: CD Size

>
>Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images and
>the text could be provided as well.
>
>Marc

CD-ROms are only 630 MB or so... average 8x10.5 (normal scanned area of
8.5x11 letter) at 300 dpi B&W (1bit) bitmap is 1.02 MB per page,
uncompressed. Most graphics compression is about 50%, some compress more,
but sacrifice resolution. so 1200 pages would be about the limit for
scanned pages as images... as a ROUGH estimate.

Text files, however, seldom run more than 50 KB per 8x10.5 print area....
and HTML not much more (70K for really heavy coding).

As rodge would say, Food for thought.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:07:10 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: CD prototype

Ok, we have several possibilities,

Simple images
Texts
HTML
PDF
...

Why not try to see the quality and the easyness of all solutions.

Maybe we could scan several pages of differents books (one from CT, one
from MT, one from TNE) and convert them in all the offered format and then
put them on a web site. 

So TMLers could download the different files (maybe several in each
solution, depends on the solution) and review its quality (visual, handle,
printing, text extracting and searchs)

Surely chosen pages have to be the most representative of the complexity of
the books (including gray level pictures, arrays (with gray lines) and
illos (maybe on gray background)). So we could have samples.

This will help to cost all the procedure too. 
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1624
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 30 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1625



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bounty Hunting
Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Is DGP ever going to do anything
Re: Galactic v2.3 now available
Traveller CD and page count
Eneri
Re: Deep Space Stations
Re: GSBAG
Starship noises
Re: GSBAG
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
trivia from the sector data
Reprinting CT/MT/TNE stuff
Re: Starship noises
The T4 equivalent of WBH
Re: Traveller on CD
Marine OTC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:28:01 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Bounty Hunting

My personal take on the matter is that individual worlds are allowed to 
set up whatever extradition arrangements with other worlds they can 
get, and to use bounty hunters as they see fit/can get away with. The 
Imperium itself will look the other way as it feels that these are internal
matters between the individual worlds. So long as trade is not affected, 
the planets are allowed to do what they can. The only time the big boys
get involved is for crimes against the Imperium, i.e. treason, piracy,
crimes against Imperial representatives or property, etc., or in those
rare cases that the Imperium feels that the crime is of a horrendous 
enough nature that it must step in, e.g. some group releases a nerve
gas bomb downtown in one of the major cities or some other weapon
of mass destruction. Of course, the 3I can reserves the right to declare
any crime within its jurisdiction, but very rarely does so out of a) the
desire to preserve planets' rights, and b) the desire not to get itself
weighted down with being the local police force for thousands of
worlds. In the later years of the Imperium, perhaps the bureaucracy
lent itself to doing so, but in Milieu 0 I feel that Cleon and the boys
are too busy just trying to keep up with the expanding trade to try
and be Barney Fife.


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:59:18 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?

Hi there

>of reading _all_ the stuff about the Droyne was that they were not
>known to be collectively one race in M0.  It was only after years of
>Imperial sophonotologists piecing things together that they learned
>that all these worlds scattered about with Chirpers and Droyne, were
>in fact one race.

Well, that is what was believed in M1100, but 1100 years is a long
time for people to forget and get confused over what was really known
and not known in M0.  We've had discussions before about the ability
of a large and diverse nation like the Imperium to maintain accurate
and complete records of all its knowledge over several centuries - and
like all the arguments which rely on extrapolated ideas about what
might be possible with advanced technology, there are 3 conlusions
"yes it can be done", "no it can't be done", and "well, maybe, maybe
not".  I personally go with the "no, it can't be done" in this case,
ie. knowledge will be lost & mislaid, if only because it is more
interesting game-wise.  If someone lands on a planet, and wants to
know all the history relating to the current political setting, and
they can just look it up in "Encylopedia Imperia" in however much
detail they want, then half the mystery (ie.  fun) is gone straight
away.  

*
 *
  *
   *
    *
     *
      *
       *
	*
	 W
	  A
	   R
	    N
	     I
	      N
	       G: 
		 A
		  N
		   C
		    I
		     E
		      N
		       T
			S

			 S
			  P
			   O
			    I
			     L
			      E
			       R
				S
				 *
 				  *
  				   *
				    *
				     *
				      *
				       *
				        *
					 *

Relevance to Droyne: Just because it was thought they were a major
race in M0 doesn't mean anyone remembers by M500; perhaps the idea was
discredited?  Also, one thing that has never been mentioned in
relation to the Droyne has been the role of the race itself - they
sailed through the Final War, the First Imperium (not known for its
tolerance of alien cultures), the Second Imperium (lootocracies are
not noted for concerning themselves with sophont welfare) and the Long
Night, in many cases unaffected, or at least not wiped out, in
numerous locations.  To me, this suggests that the Droyne are a bit
more knowledgable than they let on.

One possiblity (which I don't like, because Imperium-wide, century
spanning conspiracies make me want to scream) is that there is a
secret group of Droyne who go around preserving the lives of their
more pastoral siblings (sort of like Men in Black in groups of six).
However, it isn't clear why they would fiddle about with lots of
little groups of backward Droyne spread all over the place - surely
the best chance of survival comes in numbers, regardless of what sort
of culture & society you want.  These Droyne MiB would have been
around before any of the other Major Races left their homeworlds, so
why didn't they just keep the homeworlds in check?  I mention this
possibility before someone else does, because I think it is crap -
things don't work like that except in the minds of mega-conspiracy
theory geeks.

OK, so my prefered idea works like this: The Droyne drones can, in a
sufficiently large population, retain a significant fraction of the
racial knowledge base (ie. scientific and social knowledge), although
they may not have the understanding to put it into action.  When a
droyne group is threatened by a truely dire event, the Droyne leaders
ask their drones to search their memories, with the aid of the other
castes' input, to come up with ideas for solutions.  The groups which
retain the correct knowledge and are able to retrieve it survive;
those that do not either perish or innovate.  The Droyne revert to
simple existences between crises (an attitude which may well be seen
as a utopian ideal by some).  In this way, the Droyne are more
prominent in M0 because they have been coping with the Long Night.
During the Imperium period, they fade from view, and people forget
about them, indicating that the Imperium is fundamentally a safe place
for this race.  However, in the 1100s, along with the increasing
recognition of the major race status of the Droyne (and the links to
the Ancients) they start being space-going again, establishing
companies, travelling the stars, interacting with other races,
learning about them.  Perhaps some of the groups which have come in to
increased contact with non-Droyne have decided that to ensure survival
they have to take a measure of control over that contact.  Then, when
the Rebellion and Hard Times comes about, Droyne become even more
prominent, and even belligerent, hence the reports of Droyne clashing
with humans, and in some cases forming survival partnerships.  This
isn't the result of some overarching guiding group of Droyne (unless
you count the indirect influence of Gramps), just the evolved racial
response to survival.

I'm not sure how this applies to the Droyne in M0; perhaps in the core
worlds they are generally known about at this date; but, they have
disappeared, but then a growing empire has other worries which
overtake this (not that the fact can't be used for an adventure
premise, just that the Imperium as a whole will keep on rolling
regardless).  If the status of the Droyne is not general knowledge
beyond the Sylean core, then the belief that they are a major race may
fade, especially if the opposite belief is strongly held else where.
Perhaps some human records show categorically that apparent Droyne on
such-and-such a world were first contacted when they were in a
primitive state, and there was no evidence that they were not native
to that world.  Perhaps poltical expediency requires that the Droyne
status is overlooked in one region.  Perhaps some Droyne decide that
the best way of being left alone in the newly expanding empire is by
being insignificant.  As the Third Imperium (at least in M0?) seems to
be slightly more considerate of its non-human population than the
earlier incarnations, perhaps they will leave the Droyne to
themselves.  My point is that a more "natural" explanation of the
Droyne's fall from notice is via a series of small happenings, rather
than some overarching plan.

Perhaps M0 is just a simulation in a virus-based cyberspace, a subtly
rearranged mega-maze for the virtual humaniti to run through, observed
by the virus's Hiver colleagues with a view to understanding the
object of their biggest project yet!

>Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)

I sure I saw it on Newcastle high street last week...or was that Elvis?

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:58:41 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

Daniel Ray Lane wrote:
> 
> > Sergeants as "Gunny" and Naval Officers will be called "Sir" only after a
> > half-second pause to consider if they really deserve it.
> 
> No comment.  (Just a half-second of massive orbital bombardment on all
> of your emplacements).
> 
> -Dan Lane


Great!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:32:25 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Is DGP ever going to do anything

    I note, with amusement, once again that people are calling on MM to let
Roger Sanger (who bought the rights to DGP) publish stuff. How quickly
people forget that Roger has never, ever, produced anything. He is always
on the brink of bringing out something wonderful and amazing but has never,
in the history of his ownership of DGP's materials, every brought anything
to anyone.
    His last promise was six months ago when he said DGP were hitting the
streets withing a year with more wonderful and amazing stuff. Well, six
months have gone without a single post to the TML (that I have noticed).
Six months to go. If he deliveres, well and good, I will apologised by
buying anything he comes out with. However, based on past personal
experience trying to work with him to produce a product he will deliver
nothing but empty promises.
    The best service Roger Sanger can do is to give up (or agree to sell)
his ownership of the DGP stuff to someone who will do something with it. He
has already violated the spirit of his agreement with Joe Fugate. If people
are going to make public cries, I would not pester MM, who is actually
doing _something_ to "let" Roger, who is actually doing _nothing_, fail to
deliver on yet another promise. Rather, I'd pester Roger to either release
his DGP rights to the public domain or else let them be bought by someone
who will actually do something with them.
    [If he sets a price, I'd be more than happy to coordinate a TML
collection to buy them, web them, and make them publically available to the
gaming community. Maybe followed by an at-cost CORE printing for those who
like hard-copy, etc.]
Jo

PS: Note: Roger Sanger doesn't even have a web-page. That is how out-of-it
he is.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:18:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Galactic v2.3 now available

In mail you write:

>   * Jens Maskus contributed the Gateway Sector (originally by DGP)

Gateway was originally by Judges Guild!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:12:35 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Traveller CD and page count

Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com> wrote:

>So what are we looking at here?  I do not have access to my traveller
>books, but I would guess about 100 books with an average of 60 pages.
>600 pages that need to be scanned, converted, edited, categorized with
>keywords and sorted into a database type environment.  Is that the
>problem?

According to my lunchtime calculations, that's off by a factor of 10!  I
think you meant 6000 pages.

In fact, a quick check of my ever handy bibliography reveals the following
facts:


Pages of Traveller material in different eras divided by publisher:

     GDW       DGP       Other           Total

CT   3086      142       2527      5755       (+1737 pages of novels)

MT   945       540       -         1485

TNE  1682      -         -         1682       (+704 pages of novels)


Total     5713      682       2527       8922


That's 8922 pages of Traveller material (not counting novels or boxed sets
such as Tarsus, Beltstrike and Games 1-5)

(NB: Much of the CT material is in the smaller page format which will not
take so much memory)

Across all eras for some 176 items the average pagination was about 50 so
Bob's guess above was pretty near the mark.


Marc then wrote:
>Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images
and
>the text could be provided as well.

To which

William F. Hostman <Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com> then contributed:
>CD-ROms are only 630 MB or so... average 8x10.5 (normal scanned area of
>8.5x11 letter) at 300 dpi B&W (1bit) bitmap is 1.02 MB per page,
>uncompressed. Most graphics compression is about 50%, some compress more,
>but sacrifice resolution. so 1200 pages would be about the limit for
>scanned pages as images... as a ROUGH estimate.

At this rate the project is going to take some 7 or 8 CDs!!!  (But remember
that many of those 9000 odd pages are not US letter sized.  So maybe a 5 CD
boxed set!)


William continues:
>Text files, however, seldom run more than 50 KB per 8x10.5 print area....
>and HTML not much more (70K for really heavy coding).

Which is 450 meg (text) and 630 meg (HTML).  (Again, less as the CT books
were not all US letter size).


>As rodge would say, Food for thought.
Indeed.


tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

"What a sad way to spend a lunch break."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:19:13 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Eneri

Marc wrote:
>At last someone has realized that the Vilani personal name Eneri is
>pronounced like a British Henry!
Sorry if this was a deliberate 'pun' you were waiting for someone to spot.

Some of us rather took it for granted...   ;-)

tc
Gosport, England

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:13:07 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Stations

About four years ago I was musing on the subject of uncharted space, 
and my meanderings took me to...

Achilles Station (Spinward Marches 2120)

The Lanth sector is a sparse grouping of stars which contains a 
branch of the Spinward Main to trailing and bordered by the Sword 
Worlds to rimward.  Communication between Lanth and other 
Imperial worlds is slow, and trade somewhat limited.  For this 
reason, a base in the sparse interior of the subsector would be a 
useful asset.

The discovery of a small number of asteroid bodies relatively close 
together in this region was a fortunate one for the misjumped 
scoutship _Unforgivable Insult_, allowing her detached duty pilot and 
crew to reach D'Ganzio Naval Base for repairs.  Their report to Scout 
authorities on Lanth was that it was a possible waypoint for naval 
vessels, being jump-4 from the bases at Lanth, Equus and Lunion, and 
a possible route for type S scoutships to reach Lanth from the Scout 
base at Ivendo (2319) on the Spinward Main.

No official action was taken, but a few years later the crew of the 
_Unforgivable Insult_ returned to Lanth for their annual 
maintainance and a replenishment of engineering stores, having sold 
many of their spares to the tiny outpost on Mithril in the Sword 
Worlds.  Hearing rumours of trade opportunities on Equus, 
they decided to use the "shortcut" they had discovered earlier.  On 
reaching the asteroids, they were astonished to find them settled, 
with mining of two smaller rocks apparently in progress and a 
thriving colony of perhaps a thousand people on the large ice 
asteroid they'd previously used to refuel.

The colony was controlled from a surplus but well-armed destroyer, of 
obsolete manufacture but undoubted power, by an individual who 
introduced himself as Captain Biktor.  He explained that the 
colonists were mostly belters and miners from worked-out claims in 
other systems, now plying their trade here at Achilles Station.  They 
shipped crudely processed metals in exchange for food and 
manufactured goods, but most of their money was made selling fuel to 
the far traders and seekers which passed this way.  Biktor expressed 
some surprise that an Imperial ship would know of the settlement, 
since the Imperium apparently knew nothing of Achilles Station, but 
allowed _Unforgivable Insult_ to go on her way, having traded some 
lifesupport supplies for fuel.

At Ivendo, the Scout authorities listened patiently, but showed very 
little excitement.  No ban was placed on _Insult_'s crew using or 
even advertising the existence of Achilles Station, but they were 
asked to be discreet about it and to report to Scout authorities on 
after each visit.

Possibilities:

Achilles Station is of huge value as a refuelling base, so why hasn't 
the Imperial Navy simply taken over?  The main reason is that they 
are already in charge: for all that Biktor's battered destroyer looks 
like a pirate, it was obtained from the mothballed reserve fleet at 
Trin only a couple of years ago.  The crew are largely ex-service 
personnel, with a scattering of active duty scouts and some recruits 
from the colony, while Biktor himself is actually a Commander in 
Imperial Naval Intelligence.  He keeps to his psionic-screened 
quarters and bridge, and only he and his XO know about the huge 
fusion warhead planted on the asteroid.  The station is unlikely to 
remain secret, and in fact it is a trap for invading Zhodani, who 
would be stranded there if the main asteroid were destroyed.

Ling Standard Products has an exclusive contract for the metal 
extracted from the asteroids, and contributed most of the start-up 
costs.  They believe Biktor to be a privateer of some sort, but are 
very willing to do business with him.

Sometimes corsairs use the base, but never for long.  Some have 
become part of Biktor's system defence squadron, whereas others leave 
and retrun infrequently, if at all.  Achilles Station is neither a 
haven for pirates nor too inclined to check up on the background of 
ships which call.  It is likely that Biktor betrays the worst pirates 
to the Navy.


Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies
 (formerly nsm14@cus.cam.ac.uk, now N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk)

Scientist * Freelance theologian * Traveller player and BITS member

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:47:57 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: GSBAG

- -> Anyway, Horizon Starship Company was what was intended.
Direct Translation of Horizon is
(drumroll)
Horizont (bigge surprise!)

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:48:17 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: Starship noises

Just to add some flavor during travels, I would like to have you opinion on
the noises the players could hear inside a starship while in J/N space

Here are my ideas : 
Air flowing inside life supported zones
Little buzz from the G-compensators
Maybe some vibrations coming from Fusion plant
Surely some (noisy) vibrations coming from heplar when activated
Maybe something coming from the jump grid while in J-space

And some extras :
Crew talks
Snoring neighboor ;-)


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:46:59 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: GSBAG

- -> > Gesichtskreis means roughly translated: Area of view (although 
- -> > nobody sais that anymore (old usage), but dirctely it means just what 
- -> i>  said: Face- Circle...
- -> 
- -> My dictionary gives "Horizon" as one less-common alternative translation.
- -> Things change over the years...I understand that Luther's translation of the
- -> bible into German uses the word "Weib" in reference to the virgin Mary, which
- -> now has a slightly perjorative connotation.
- -> 
- -> Anyway, Horizon Starship Company was what was intended.
Hmm, thanks Loren. 
Horizon fits the word quite nicely...The Horizon is the biggest area 
of possible view ;-).
So now we know! It's good to have the Great Old Ones on the list ;-)



Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:51:59 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

- -> among other things.  I do not know what was said here, but my recollection
- -> of reading _all_ the stuff about the Droyne was that they were not known to
- -> be collectively one race in M0.  It was only after years of Imperial
- -> sophonotologists piecing things together that they learned that all these
- -> worlds scattered about with Chirpers and Droyne, were in fact one race.
Yes, but in anomalies, the REFEREE data states that all droyne were 
destroyed. That's not what the people of the time knew, that's 
Referee data!

- -> Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)
Please no more hints without substantiation. If you something tell 
us, not brag about it! 
- -> 
- -> Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
- ->  University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
- ->  Class of '98
- -> 
- -> 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:34:22 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: trivia from the sector data

An old e-mail I never got round to sending while we were discussing the
sector data that was posted:

If anyone cares, no worlds have every number identical (excepting zeroes)
but the following comes close:

lis  1134 Shira Li. B222212-B Po LoPop

and this world comes pretty close:

ile  1325 Kiguu.    AAAAACD-A Wa HiPop



Bet you wish I hadn't bothered now.

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk
"The perils of a summer clear-out are not to be underestimated." tc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 11:50:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Reprinting CT/MT/TNE stuff

On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:05:04 -0400 (EDT), CardSharks@aol.com Wrote...

> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
    My personal choice, and by edit I would be happy with a simple spell
checker run. <GRIN>  But yeah, I'd like the images, but the text I definately
want in text files so I can cut and paste for my own background notes. ;)

Then,
On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:54:39, Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se Wrote...

> Oh, one final thought before I hit the sack, I'd definitely want the
> TASJ and Challenge articles on the CD as well. While I have most
> issues, it'd be *real* handy to have them on the web. (Actually I'd
> want the Twilight:2000 articles as well, but that's another topic. ;-)
    I would LOVE for this to happen!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:30:55 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Steinar Knutsen <sk@nvg.ntnu.no>
Subject: Re: Starship noises

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> Just to add some flavor during travels, I would like to have you opinion on
> the noises the players could hear inside a starship while in J/N space
> 
> Here are my ideas : 
> Air flowing inside life supported zones

Noisy ventilation fans. :)

> Surely some (noisy) vibrations coming from heplar when activated

Well, arguably this could be like someone firing a cannon mounted on the
hull, thus it could be extremely uncomfortable. But, more on that later.

> Maybe something coming from the jump grid while in J-space

For those using a jump core in their campaigns, the deep hum of the jump
core is a classic.

Generally, I think any load and very uncomfortable sound, especially low
frequencies, would be non-existant in a high-tech setting like Traveller.
Anti-noise generators are too easy and cheap to build. (Hey, we're using
them on TL-8.) 

> And some extras :
> Crew talks
> Snoring neighboor ;-)

Neighbour muttering while asleep about killing you. :)

That new sensor-op who's always practicing on that awful terror device
from his home world. ("What do you mean 'terror device'?! It's a bag
pipe!" ;) ) 

And for passengers? "They've blothed backs and their bardigans and
their chances to radios, complaining about the tea or they don't make
it properly, do they? And stopping at endless Majorcan bodegas selling
fish and chips a nd Rodney's Red Barrel and calamares and toothache. And
sitting in their cotton sunfrost, squirting Timothy White Suncream all
over their puffy, raw, swollen, parollen flesh, 'cos they overdid it on
the first day." Well, imagine that kind of people on their way to their
holidays, or on their way home.

Steinar Knutsen, stud.scient., SP3, PSA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 11:50:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: The T4 equivalent of WBH

On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:01:44 MET, GREI5001@uni-trier.de Wrote...

> MORE detail???
    Yes, MORE DETAIL!  World Builder's Handbook _barely_ scratched the surface
in terms of detailing a PLANET.  Think of the variety you get here on Earth in
the waning years of the twentieth century.  WBH hasn't got a pray of even
mentioning it. ;)

> Sorry, but i think i'd give that book a pass if ever published.
> WBH was exellent and contained loads of detail...More detail
> and it's no fun anymore, but becomes hard work instead!
    You know I keep mentioning it and you gearheads keep blowing me off but IF
we want to get and keep new players for T4 we must give the new GM's out there
the tools to run the game.  Traveller adventures take place on WORLDS, most of
us have previously published resources for developing Worlds in Traveller but
for the new players coming in through T4 they get... that JOKE of a description
in the T4 book to work with!
    Designing warships, weapons, and all the rest of it is fun, and as a GM
I'll be the first to admit it ALL goes into my "Traveller Resource" files for
potential future use.  But the newbie GM is being left hung out to dry
regarding perhaps the most important aspect of Traveller, the Worlds!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:52:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

>I should think so.  I'd be happy with good JPEG images of every page, and
>all the text in simple ASCII format.

I'd say you scan them at 300 dpi and save them as LZW TIFF 1-bit instead of
JPEG. JPEG is great for continous tone stuff like photographs and such but
really crummy on B&W which most Traveller material is done in. The
artifacts from JPEG compressing text images make them unsuitable for later
OCR processing as well which would leave me out as a buyer (I have ALL the
CT and MT stuff and the TNE stuff worth having IMHO) so for me the real
advantage would be to have it in digital form, esp library data and illos.

Scan the pages and convert it into HTML or pdf. Keep the illos if possible
in the text but they could be put in a separate folder with references in
the text <fig 117>.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:58:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: Marine OTC

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> 
> 1) Why do the marines not have an OTC or Military Academy equivalent? I
> would have thought that they would, especially as they are the elite
> fighting troops?

   Marines use Naval Academy for their OTC requirements.


- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1625
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 30 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1626



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship noises
TRTOOLS patch and addon
Re: Traveller CD and page count
re: The Reality Dysfunction (was re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.)
ISS
More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..
Alternate technologies
Re: More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..
Re: Starship noises
Re: Tactical Scenario
Question:  Laser Sights
T4 C-gen Yet again
Auction Update 
Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything
CD Traveller
Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle
Re: FBI in 3I
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:57:29 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starship noises

>Here are my ideas :
>Air flowing inside life supported zones
>Little buzz from the G-compensators
>Maybe some vibrations coming from Fusion plant
>Surely some (noisy) vibrations coming from heplar when activated
>Maybe something coming from the jump grid while in J-space
>
>And some extras :
>Crew talks
>Snoring neighboor ;-)

Everybody know (in Hollywood at least) that all spaceships emit a low 50 Hz
hum at TL 9+ (post Alien the movie). Curiously enough though these sounds
are only heard from the outside in vacuum (!) never within the ship except
possibly in the drive room.    ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:28:25 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TRTOOLS patch and addon

A bug fix is available for TRTOOLS V0.93, as well as a small add-on that
converts stellar data into generally accepted values.  The bug fix does not
effect the running of the utilities, but fixes problems with the display of
correct parameters in one of the programs.

Both files can be found at:

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/software.html

Seeya,


Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:00:49 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

Timothy Collinson wrote:

>That's 8922 pages of Traveller material (not counting novels or boxed sets
>such as Tarsus, Beltstrike and Games 1-5)

Arrrgr, I didn't know there was so many...

Michael D. Peters stated that 15 to 30 minutes are needed per page.
Assuming that after 50 pages, the operator would drop below 10 minutes a
page. The complete process would take 9000/6 = 1500H! which is a little
more than 9 monthes (20 days a month 8 hours a day...). What an enjoyable
work...

With 9000 pages there is no way to handle to books with simple texte or
html files. 9000 gif files would also be horrible to walk trough. 

BTW pictures are always hard to print because of the resolution differences
screen/printer


Finally my vote would go for something easy to print such I PDF files which
I've never used. (I trust those would says it's a good solution, and I hope
they are right!)

Without an automatic AND reliable OCR/PDF conversion system, I'm not sure
this is feasable (but many people say that I'm fatalist...).


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:49:10 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: The Reality Dysfunction (was re: Nano-Tech/Bio-Tech/Etc.)

>Space combat in particular seems very traveller-like; ships with accelerations
>of several Gs (no G-comp for most ships), lasers and missiles (elaborately
>sophisticated missiles called "combat wasps" are the dominant weapon), no
>shields. Some of the space scenes were probably influencing me in writing
>my soon-to-be-posted Definitive Sensor Rules.
>
>Bruce

The audience hushed and fell totally silent, you could here a needle
falling - not to mention it hitting the floor.

When will the <soon-to-be-posted Definitive Sensor Rules> be posted?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:56:44 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: ISS

Does anyone *know* what 'ISS' stands for (as in ISS Arrival Vengeance, the
AHL class cruiser and MegaTraveller adventure).

I *assume* it means Imperial Star Ship but can anyone point to actual
source for this definition?  I'm unable to find an actual definition in any
Traveller book of any era.  (Not that I'm reading them all just to find
this out.)  Roll on the searchable CD!


Many thanks

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk
"And no, it's not in _Arrival Vengeance: The Final Odyssey_.  At least, not
that I can find."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:54:02 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes:
>Yet more thoughts/observations and questions on T4.1!
>1) Why do the marines not have an OTC or Military Academy equivalent? I
>would have thought that they would, especially as they are the elite
>fighting troops?
   One reason could be that Marines (or to use the more accurate Russian
term, Naval Infantry) go to the Naval Academy.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:18:12 +0100
From: John_Wood@cbtsys.com
Subject: Alternate technologies

Thanks to everyone who chipped in with those bounty hunting suggestions,
they were great. I'm compiling a list of felonies that I think will fall
under Imperial jurisdiction and for which the Imperium would be empowered
to issue warrants for arrest valid outside extrality fences on member
worlds as a result of an empowering clause stipulated in the membership
agreement. I'm thinking of treason, piracy, genocide, ship-jacking, arms
smuggling, violation of Sophont rights etc. I'll post this list for comment
whenever I get it done.
     I'm not so sure about the navy/scouts/marines performing as a police
force, though. For one thing crime detection is a very different remit than
the one these organisations have been given, and I can't see the sense in
each of them maintaining an office of special agents for criminal detection
and arrest purposes. For another thing, this is tantamount to permanent
martial law, and I'm not sure even a feudal society like the Imperium would
get away with such a policy in a technologically advanced culture. No, I'm
fairly sure this function will be centralized and organized by the MOJ,
perhaps with a hierarchy of offices at subsector/sector/domain level
emerging as the 3I expands. There will be an office of MOJ agents on most
starports maintaining a database of movements of criminal elements, illegal
shipments etc. and effecting arrests and investigations within (and
occasionally without) Imperial jurisdiction.
     Where do bounty hunters fit in here? I reckon there will be two
varieties of bounty:
1) Warrants and rewards for the return of criminals to member worlds or to
the custody of individuals/non-governmental institutions that are pursued
with no more power than that of the average imperial citizen. These
warrants have no force under Imperial law and the execution of such
warrants is tantamount to kidnapping.
2) Warrants and rewards for those who have violated an Imperial Felony - ie
one on the list I mentioned above - and these may be pursued in imperial
space/territory or on member worlds by those who have registered with the
MOJ as bounty hunters having met certain standards and agreed to follow
certain regulations in pursuit of the bounty.

In general and IMHO - I think we need to see a lot more expansion of roles
and a lot more adventures for nonmilitary or paramilitary characters such
as agents. Besides the bounty hunting campaign I've always fancied the idea
of the Interstellar, Imperial G-man/private eye/detective, pursuing Martuu,
the butcher of Maleus beta from starport to starport, barren moon to barren
moon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:20:24 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..

At 11:22 PM 7/29/97 +0100, Dom wrote:

>1) Why do the marines not have an OTC or Military Academy equivalent? I
>would have thought that they would, especially as they are the elite
>fighting troops?

We went around on this a while back; basically, we came to the conclusion
the the Marines have a "you can't lead until you've followed" policy.  This
is to insure that every Marine officer knows what it's like to be a grunt
with a rifle.  Also, it means that the Marines won't invest thousands of
credits training an officer canidate who will wilt at the first sign of
danger.. all the Marine officers have proven themselves.

>2) Would it be a good idea to put in some travel time if the Military
>acadamies and Naval acadamies are at fixed locations? This is more relevant
>towards M1100, when travel to Core would take a significant period.

I would imagine that each subsector would have its own accredited set of
Academies.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1997 15:49:29 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Starship noises

Just to add some flavor during travels, I would like to have you opinion on 
the noises the players could hear inside a starship while in J/N space
     
Here are my ideas :
Air flowing inside life supported zones 
Little buzz from the G-compensators
Maybe some vibrations coming from Fusion plant
Surely some (noisy) vibrations coming from heplar when activated 
Maybe something coming from the jump grid while in J-space
     
And some extras :
Crew talks
Snoring neighboor

     Talking computer (of course!!)
     Meow from shipboard cat
     Flushing (or sucking sound!) of ship's urinals
     Whoosh of automatic doors
     Various lift noises (ping! bing! "Which floor would you like?" voice)
     
     If you check round some CD stores, you should find the odd Space CD with 
     sounds effects.  These always add to a good game atmosphere.
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:30:32
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:03:22 GMT
>From: lansford@vnet.net (John Lansford)
>Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario
>
>
>>The Mercenaries:
>>---------------
>>They have 3 walkers (taken by the T2300 equipment guide, if you
>>are unfamiliar with these, just think of the 2 legged walkers in
>>the _Return of the Jedi_ movie). Two of them will attack the
>>main gates, the third one will enter the city walking on the
>>river bed (remaining underwater until the last moment).  They
>>are armed with lasers(see down for more on weaponry, though) and
>>HMGs, have a rigid armor of 9 and can operate for 15+ hours.
>
>Against that weaponry the locals and PC's are going to be severely
>overmatched. Carbines won't damage the armored walkers and I doubt
>artillery would manage to hit them (hitting moving targets wasn't a
>forte of old artillery).
The city has no real artillery. The state is quite small and
it's very distant from any other potentially troublesome
neighbours. The ruler has eradicated bandits and other local
threats some years ago. The local militia is more like a
heavy-duty police than a real army. From a military point of
view the city has no chance to put up any kind of resistance.
The mercenaries hope that the population will realize that in
the interval between noon and midnight, and will (wisely) decide
to hand out the hostage.
The Mercs would really like to get the job done with minimum
violence.

>>The walkers will act as a diversion, and have been chosen in
>>order to give the maximum psychological effect on the natives
>>("Iron Covered Monsters! Aieeee!").

>TL 3 and 4 locals won't be overawed by ironclad land vehicles. Such
>things were considered in the Civil War and naval ships used iron
>armor as well. They may not be able to damage them but I think the
>psyche affect will be minimal.
I think that a two legged armored creature which packs rapid
fire weapons could cause some worry to people. Local culture is
struggling not to revert back to lower TL and tend to scavenge
and mantain old stuff instead of designing or producing
Victorianesque technological marvels. Also consider that the
place is quite poor, so it's rarely visited by starships.  
You may be right in saying that people will not be thrown in the
same kind of terror that we can imagine for truly primitive
tribesmen, but OTOH, the Mercs don't have a great knowledge of
the local society. Their ticket described the target just as
"low-TL city state with primitive weapons and feudal-like social
structure. No external troops or other threats believed
present". Starting from this, they thought that Walkers would be
good enough for the work, and perhaps give them a small
psychological edge to boot.

>They won't be able to do much against either the walkers or the armor
>clad mercs. Their best bet will be to hopefully escape with the target
>while confusion reigns, and hope they can reach the scout ship before
>anyone realizes what they've done. Once in the ship they can either
>escape or try something with its weapons.
Again, I fully realize that, but I suspect that my players would
be inclined to go for a "Seven Samurai/Battle of the
Bulge/A-team" scenario and would like to assess some plans for
this. They will have more or less ten hours to devise a battle
plan.
The three players have little Military experience in RL (and no
starship experience, AFAIK), so I find fair that I, as a GM,
supply them with some facts that their Characters would be able
to know. This is the main reason for asking over the TML.
The other one is that I'd like to play the Mercs in an
intelligent (but not *too* intelligent) way. They count on
surprise, superior technology and the willingness to extract a
dead body, if necessary. In their opinion, these three factors
should be enough to convince the defenders to just give up. They
don't know that the PC's are in the city and have no reason to
expect any surprise.

>>Is it possible, for example, to use the starship Laser against
>>the G-Carriers?=20
>
>The carriers are small targets and in an atmosphere, definitely a
>tough target to hit with a shipboard weapon.=20
This is one of the points I'd like to discuss, especially with
someone which have extensive experience with Starship
design/tactics.  
Consider that the fight would be at a very short distance, and
even if the G-carriers are quite smaller than your average
starship, they will be much (*much*) nearer then usual space
combat targets. Is there any *canonical* guideline on using ship
weapons as AP or anti-tank weaponry.

One of the PCs has Gunnery and two of them have Pilot (three,
considering the Scout NPC). They could reach the submersed ship
and spring out of the sea in order to intercept the G-carriers.
Using ship weaponry against the walkers is almost impossible,
I'd say. They will be near or inside the city walls, and using
deep space weapons at these ranges could cause enormous
collateral damage.
The best bet would be to try and destroy the G-carriers in
flight. Without them, the Walkers could do very little on they
own (they are just three, each manned by a single pilot, and if
the G-carriers are destroyed they would probably try to get out
of the city, regroup at the landing site and wait for the
shuttle which will take them back to their orbiting ship.).
If you think that starship weapons won't do, what about trying
to ram them down? The starship should prove fast (and sturdy)
enough to close in and knock down the G-carriers. Their on-board
weaponry wouldn't be enough to actually damage ship's armor.

>>Wt about mines, boobytraps, using their air-raft as a
>>weapon...
>
>Using boobytraps or mines might encourage reprisals by the mercs, and
>would probably not cause much in the way of casualties among them
>anyway. 
Mhhh... they way I'm envisioning things, the Mercs think to have
all the aces in this situation, and won't expect any nasty
surprise. Mission budget and diplomatic problems on the planet
will not allow them to do much if they are repelled. The mission
was put together in a hurry, and if they encounter serious
opposition they will beat it and blame their patron for not
having provided sufficient info on the opposing forces.
Obviously the PCs can't know this last part, but they know that
due to Zhodani and Imperial Navy presence around the planet, the
Mercenaries will not be allowed to launch larger scale operations.
Also, if the PCs take the hostage away, no-one will be
interested in continuing actions against the planet, no Merc
will be so stupid to mount a genocide attack just to take
revenge against the natives; the Merc force is formed by
competent professionals, and they won't have any interest in
doing this. Bad publicity, risky political move, and who would
pay for this second trip?  On the other hand, the Mercs would
probably love to discover just who the PCs are and perhaps take
some kind of revenge against *them*...

>Combat armor is tough and probably has sensors to detect
>explosives. What TL is the armor anyway?
The walkers should be around TL 10, I'd say... what TL would you
consider for T2300 stuff, anyway?
The rest of the troops (the ones travelling by G-carriers and
which will storm the island) is equipped with light personal armors and
weapons, tactical comm-links, HUDs, Night Goggles and assorted gear.
I'd say Flex-3 over limbs and Flex-5 on torso, SMGs, grenades
and light sidearms for the storming party.




__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:22:16 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Question:  Laser Sights

Here's a game related question for those in the know.

I've seen mention, in weapon descriptions in the EA, of laser sights. 
 The TL 13 Guass Pistol, for instance, lists laser sighting.

But, there are no game mechanics printed in the weapon description 
for laser sighting.  Like other sights, I would think that laser 
sighting adds a +DM to the attack throw.

There is a section in the EA on sighting aids, but laser sighting is 
not covered.

Am I missing something?  Is the rule for laser sights buried in the 
the EA somewhere like the one for RF autofire?  Was this 
unintentionally omitted from the EA?

Where do I find the rule for using laser sights?

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:55:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: T4 C-gen Yet again

Marc,

Well, today's lunchbreak fun was an Entertainer... the only observation I
have about this is that Charisma is given as an automatic skill on
enlisting, but is not refered to on the Cluster part of the skills chart...

Dom

(Of course it may have changed on versions later than T4.1.002!)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:50:58 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update 

Attached is a complete copy of the items I am auctioning (including the
rules which I neglected to include in my first post - sorry).  I have moved
the Traveller related items to the top so you don't have to wade through
the other items.

Rules:          

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              Ex  $ 5.00
DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $20.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $20.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $15.00 cgriffen@cisco.com

Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  $ 5.00
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  $ 5.00
Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        $65.00 kalin@bambam.swlink.net


AD&D Related Items                                Co     Bid
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        $ 6.00 tlsiew@acsu.buffalo.edu

TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   UP  $ 5.00
GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      Ex  $ 5.00
        figures)
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Referee's Screen                          Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     Ex  $10.00
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
GDW     Soldier's Companion                       Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           MN  $ 5.00
GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   Ex  $ 3.00
GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          Ex  $ 3.00
        unpainted figures)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:11:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything

Roger Sanger is soliciting people to help him work on a new game. I'm not at
liberty to say anything more. Try emailing him.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:33:18 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: CD Traveller

Eris wrote (responding to CardSharks):
>>Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images
>and the text could be provided as well.
>I should think so.  I'd be happy with good JPEG images of every page, and
all the text in simple ASCII format.

This would certainly be my preference.  I have found that .PDF format is
nowhere near the glorious format it is hyped as.  The freeware Acrobat
reader is notoriously slow and clunky (I've got seven users here in my
office who complain about it regularly) and printing support is
questionable.  While HTML looks great if you're using an HTML-compatible
viewer, all text editors and most word processors present HTML exactly as
it truly is; oddly formatted text with control characters scattered
throughout (most people are still using word processing software 2 or 3
years old, with no HTML support).  If I want to use some of the text in a
word-processor document, I will have to clean out all the HTML rubbish
first.  And certainly I will want to use the text in my own documents; a
breifing paper for a character about his home planet, perhaps, or a subset
of library data for a given subsector to be used as the party's database?
I can think of a million potential uses for this material!!!

Actually, my ideal situation would be:
1. ASCII text of the text
2. JPEG or GIF images of each page
3. Separate JPEG or GIF images of each graphic on each page.

I could then use the graphics in my own documents (for personal use only!)
without editing down the full-page images.  This would be something I would
willingly plunk down $100.00 for.  And as others have mentioned, I suspect
a lot of this work could even be done by a subset of TML members in
exchange for a free copy of the CD.

Give this one some thought, Marc.  I think it might turn out to be fairly
popular.  I suspect you could easily handle this as an internet-only offer
to reduce marketing costs.  I imagine you could sell at least 100 copies to
the TML alone (in addition to any freebies), and probably another several
hundred simply bu advertising in the rec.games.frp.misc internet group.
Mentioning the CD in the Imperium Games catalog and in Journal could likely
generate several hundred additional sales.  If it was done as a direct
mail/internet offer, almost all of the $50.00 or $100.00 could go to
Imperium Games, instead of losing a big chunk to a series of middlemen.

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 18:15 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle

In-Reply-To: <47A910F1F4C@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

Volker,

> BTW.: Did you ever hear Leonard Nimoy's Bilbo-Baggins-Song (and see 
> the video) ? This is the stuff of legends (in Humorland, anyway)

This is the stuff of *nightmares*.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 18:16 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: FBI in 3I

In-Reply-To: <33DCF435.3765@pacbell.net>

Glenn,

> This is how I do it, too, and it gives some good opportunities for
> inter-service rivalry.  Getting the PCs stuck between the Navy and
> Scouts can be a good push.

My money's on the Navy. They have bigger guns.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 18:15 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970728142335.2d073408@mail.hooked.net>

Douglas,

> I'm trying to get away from the rank of Captain in the Marines.  Since the
> main role of the Imperial Marine Force is to serve as shipboard troops, why
> have a rank that mirrors a far more senior Naval rank?

You have the same problem with Lieutenants. I suggest we stick with the old 
ranks, but prefix Lt and Capt with 'Force'.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 18:15 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

In-Reply-To: <199707290422.AAA12593@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

> >Here's an idea I've had bouncing around for a while: should officer  ranks
> >have an associated minimum Social Standing? Is it reasonable for  the
> >Grand Admiral of the Fleet to have a Soc of 1?
>  
> >There are two ways of looking at this. First, in society as 
> >class-conscious as the Imperium[1], a scummy little Soc-1 peasant will 
> >have a much harder time getting promotions than a Soc-10 gentleman, who 
> >plays golf with the Baron every other weekend. From this point of view, 
> >you can be promoted as long as your Soc is >= the minimum for the rank. 
> >If you receive a further promotion, you get a +1 Soc instead. Next  time,
> >since your Soc has increased, you may be promoted.
>  
> Frankly, this is closer to the way I see things working. In a completely
> egalitarian society competency matters, class doesn't, but the Imperium
> (and social structures like it) aren't completely egalitarian. I can see
> where a character's social class would put a limit on how far they could
> advance.  
>  
> If the PC is SOC 5, let's say, then O5 is as far as they will normally go.
> However, we need to take *exceptions* into account so...a SOC+1 might be a 
> skill choice (but we'd have to put a strict limit on how many SOC+1's a
> player could choose), or maybe WAVERS could apply to promotions as well. 

Yeah, waivers could be one way to handle it.

A simpler way to handle it might be to base the promotion roll directly on 
the Soc (with DMs to help talented peasants). This would have the effect of 
getting the hi-Soc characters to the top, but would still give a (slim) 
chance for someone with a low Soc. Say,

(Soc-3) or less, +1 if Int 9+, +1 if Edu 9+, +1 if Tactics/Leader/Admin 4+
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1626
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 30 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1627



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: Traveller CD and page count
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything
Re: Tactical Scenario
re: Starship npises
Re: Droyne Home World
Re: Droyne Home World
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Tactical Scenario
AI
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
CDs
Re: Alternate Technologies.
Re: Tactical Scenario
re: sensor rules
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman
Re: Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?
Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything
Re: Alternate Rank Structures (Chart of contempory ranks - LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 12:17:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

On 07/29/97 at 12:48 AM,  Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com> said:

>So what are we looking at here?  I do not have access to my traveller
>books, but I would guess about 100 books with an average of 60 pages.  600
>pages that need to be scanned, converted, edited, categorized with
>keywords and sorted into a database type environment.  Is that the
>problem? 

>Comments?

Bob's calculator must be back at the home office too...;->...60 pages times
100 books is 6,000 pages not 600! ;->

I think one of the perceived problems is that there is going to be a
significant up-front cost to scan and edit the pages, and Marc isn't sure
sales would cover the costs. Another possible problem is that a product
like this might cut into sales of *new* product, I *really* don't think
that would happen, but it is probably a concern.  

Here's a half-baked cost analysis...

Simple scanning of 6,000 pages would take how long?  Would 10 minutes per
page to setup, scan, check, and rescan be too much...that would mean 1,000
hours of work? Converting the scanned images to text and doing clean up
editing would take at least as long, so another 1,000 hours.  So, we're
talking about 1 man-year of work, or to put it in dollars and cents about
$30,000 in wages plus a little more for hardware/software.

Now, we can look at some numbers. If a production run of 1,000 disks is
done costing..let's say $10/disk..for production and packaging, that would
be another $10,000. Adding in some administrative and advertising costs
brings us to around $50,000 in costs. Dividing $50,000 by 1,000 gives a
cost/disk of $50.  With a 100% markup, they could be offered for sale for
$100.

OTOH, if the production run is only 500 disks (still at $10/disk) you'd
still have to cover $40,000 to $45,000 in costs. Per disk cost goes up to
$80 to $90, and retail price would be $160 to $180.

So, guys, what's the likely market?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:29:12 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

At 12:12 PM 7/30/97 +0100, T. Collins wrote:
....
>That's 8922 pages of Traveller material (not counting novels or boxed sets
>such as Tarsus, Beltstrike and Games 1-5)
>
>(NB: Much of the CT material is in the smaller page format which will not
>take so much memory)

>Marc then wrote:
>>Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images
>>and the text could be provided as well.

>William continues:
>>Text files, however, seldom run more than 50 KB per 8x10.5 print area....
>>and HTML not much more (70K for really heavy coding).
>
>Which is 450 meg (text) and 630 meg (HTML).  (Again, less as the CT books
>were not all US letter size).

Note, though, that the raw text for a 8.6x11 page is usually closer to
3-5K.  I have never seen a page _of text_ that took up more than 10k.  If
you use Word, on the other hand, then it loads each 3-5K page with 10K-50K
of crap.

For what it is worth, when I set a 350 page book in Tex, the source was
about 1.2M.  1.2M/350 -> 3.5K/page.

Likewise, a web page I did recently had about 6K/page.  But then, I rarely
use anything other than basic html, with links.  I find the rest of it does
not add to my user experience.  Usually, backgrounds and funky colors look
like garbage on my monitor, so I prefer to avoid them.

6000 pages * 5k -> 30M total.  This is not terrible.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:35:39 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> On 07/29/97 at 10:46 AM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:
> >Frankly, a CD has enough room that full pages could be scanned as images
> >and the text could be provided as well.

That is a good idea. In fact, whatever format is eventually decided on, 
putting in the scanned images also would be a real good idea.
 
> I should think so.  I'd be happy with good JPEG images of every page,
> and all the text in simple ASCII format.

No, no, no! Not JPEG! Please. Using a self-disintegrating image format 
like JPEG is *not* a good idea for images that are going to be 
processed in any way. *Any* other *non-destructive* compressed image 
format that is reasonably well standardized (and has the image format 
definition and source code for at least one implementation available) 
would be a better idea. My personal favourite is PNG 
(http://www.wco.com/~png/) which has the added benefit of being 
completely unlicensed and patent-free. (But if I start ranting about 
how *idiotic* a concept it is to patent algorithms like Unisys did with 
the compression used in GIF, I'll never stop, so I'd better stop here. 
;-) Most any decent graphics program can convert to/from GIF/PNG/TIFF 
at the very least. (One would have to make sure that a 'good' version 
of TIFF was chosen though, as it's standard is - ahem - flexible. ;-)

> ASCII text is *always* good. Sure
> ASCII isn't sexy, but it *is* universal, easily printable, storable,
> compressable, editable, and searchable. Once you start applying *any*
> preformatting you start making it hard for *somebody* to handle the
> document. Give me pure text, and *I'll* format it. Shoot, WORD and WP
> have automatic formatting that works pretty well for heaven's sake.
> ;->

Seconded.

> PDF is OK, but frankly I'm not all that enamored with it.  I've never
> had much luck printing pdf files on dotmatrix printers and even with
> better readers like Ghostscript screen displays are clunky..on my
> system anyway.  

If PDF is chosen, *please* also dump a plaintext to the disk. It 
would save me the hassle of having to go through the files to do it 
myself.

> HTML *looks* better on my screen, but doesn't always print well, 

True, but then, most recent wordprocessors (like, say, WORD and WP ;-) 
can do a fairly decent automatic conversion of HTML to their 
proprietary format.

> and
> if you use HTML make sure you don't use the latest and greatest
> version. Stick to
> *very* simple formatting, no frames, no tables! Yes, almost everybody has a
> browser, but the browsers we all have aren't all equally advanced or
> work alike.

Right. Using a text-only browser such as Lynx as a benchmark browser 
should do nicely. (If for no other reason than the fact that not all 
people *can* use gui's. I once played in a PBEM run by a blind gm. I'm 
sure he'd love to have Traveller as text, that way he can run it 
through a text-to-speech utility, or print it on a braille printer, or, 
well, whatever he chooses. If it's a GUI only format, he can't do 
*anything* with it.)

I have to disagree a *little* about tables though. I like 'em. But 
then, a well-formatted <PRE> tag does away with most of the use for 
tables. Definitely no frames, however.
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:58:36 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything

> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>     I note, with amusement, once again that people are calling on MM
>     to let
> Roger Sanger (who bought the rights to DGP) publish stuff. How quickly
> people forget that Roger has never, ever, produced anything.
[SNIP]
>     His last promise was six months ago when he said DGP were hitting
>     the
> streets withing a year with more wonderful and amazing stuff. Well,
> six months have gone without a single post to the TML (that I have
> noticed).

True. He has, however, occasionally mailed people on his mailing list. 
I got the latest one on the 25th. He asked for playtesters and 
proofreaders, so, at a guess he does have something going on. (Due to 
lack of time I've never responded, so I don't know what he's got.)

>     [If he sets a price, I'd be more than happy to coordinate a TML
> collection to buy them, web them, and make them publically available
> to the gaming community. Maybe followed by an at-cost CORE printing
> for those who like hard-copy, etc.] Jo

Hmm. I like that idea. Howabout telling him? (dgp@digestgroup.com)

> 
> PS: Note: Roger Sanger doesn't even have a web-page. That is how
> out-of-it he is.

Well, actually, he does have one. Sort of. It's called "403 
Forbidden" (That is, the directory for his user exists on his ISP, it 
just hasn't got the right bit set. ;-)
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:08:45 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

>Is it possible, for example, to use the starship Laser against
>the G-Carriers?=20
Definitely. The G-carriers may be small and agile, but you can't outrun
or dodge a laser pulse - at planetary combat ranges lasers (for all
pracitcal purposes) never miss. Atmospheric effects might reduce the laser's
effective range to a few tens of km, though. And the G-carriers/troops
can fire back; a scoutship's hull isn't particularly tough. THere's also the
risk of the merc's ship deciding to become involved if it detects the PC's
ship. Pretty tough scenario.

(Permit me to insert a moment of mourning for TNE here - one nice thing
about TNE was that questions like "what can my starship laser do against
a G-carrier" were answered in the basic rulebook - in T4 they're only in
CSC/EA, and they're answered wrong.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:16:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Starship npises

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> Just to add some flavor during travels, I would like to have you opinion on
> the noises the players could hear inside a starship while in J/N space

[whommmmp] from laser fire near-misses as the grav focussing pulse (associated
with each laser pulse) brushes the hull.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: MarkPeace@aol.com
Subject: Re: Droyne Home World

"Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> wrote:

>- -> Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)
>Please no more hints without substantiation. If you something tell 
>us, not brag about it! 

Shionthy belt isn't it? (or what's left of it)

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:02:40 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne Home World

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 MarkPeace@aol.com wrote:

> "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> wrote:
> >- -> Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)
> >Please no more hints without substantiation. If you something tell 
> >us, not brag about it! 
> 
> Shionthy belt isn't it? (or what's left of it)

I thought that it was one of the worlds that Gradfather pinched off into
his pocket universe.  

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:17:34 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

My Cr.02 on this discussion:  

I like having rank structures in Milieu Zero that differ from Milieu
1100.  The change is part of Empress Arbellatra's post-Civil War reform
of the military and navy.  So whatever we come up with will be fine.  

> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
 
> I agree with dropping "Captain" from the rank titles.

I kind of like the courtesy major thing from M:1100, but this would be
ok, too.
 
> On another note:  Is any besides me bothered by "Sub-Lieutenant"?  It
> sounds worse to me than Lieutenant Junior Grade.  And afterall, is

This is, as far as I know, contemporary British naval usage:  Ensign,
Sub-Lieutenant, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander, Captain, etc.  I've
always liked Sub-Lieutenant and would've put it into Traveller in 1980
or so when I started refereeing if hadn't already been there.  

> anyone using real subs?  And if we're going to have "Sub-"s shouldn't we
> have "Supra-"s or "Over-"s?  At best, Sub-Lt. sounds like a temporary

Like Obersturmfuehrer?  The Third Reich had all sorts of crazy rank
names.  So did the USSR until major reforms in the middle of WWII
brought back the czarist insignia and titles ("Colonel General" has
always been one of my favorites).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 14:52:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

On 07/30/97 at 04:30 PM,  Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it> said:

>>They won't be able to do much against either the walkers or the armor
>>clad mercs. Their best bet will be to hopefully escape with the target
>>while confusion reigns, and hope they can reach the scout ship before
>>anyone realizes what they've done. Once in the ship they can either
>>escape or try something with its weapons.

>Again, I fully realize that, but I suspect that my players would be
>inclined to go for a "Seven Samurai/Battle of the
>Bulge/A-team" scenario and would like to assess some plans for this. They
>will have more or less ten hours to devise a battle plan.

Do you really want to run this as a combat?  Are do you just think your
players will take the military tack?

I ask, because if *I* were one of the players, I'd try to talk the local
Chief into letting the PC's take the prisoner out of the city..maybe to
another city, or just out of town. I'd explain that the Mercs wouldn't have
a reason to be threatening the city if the prisoner was gone, and I could
make him gone.  It might not work, but then again it just might and if it
did you could have a "Mercs chase the PC's as the PC's try to get back to
their ship and off planet" scenerio.  Heck, even once off planet the PC's
would still have to get their client's son back to him while the
mercenaries and their bosses try to prevent them..imagine all the fun that
could be. ;->

OTOH, if *you* (or your players) are set on a combat scenario then go for
it! 

Eris

ps. It you can't punch a hole in your enemy's armor (foex the combat
walkers) then try to immobilize them. If you can't immobilize them, then
try to blind them. If that doesn't work....run away! -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 02:14:25 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: AI

> 
> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:19:33 -0400
> From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1612
CLIP
> One of the things I saw as a positive to TNE was... the VIRUS! It
> allowed computers artificial intelligence on a level Traveller never
> approached before. I began writing the back round for a TNE, (post
> virus) campaign that revolved around a "Pocket Empire" that was working
> hard to CO-EXIST with the virus. The ship(s) would be characters in
> their own right. It seemedd to me that they would provide the perfect
> defense against having your ship "inhabitated" out from under you. Kind
> of like a vaccine.
> Now I know we're talking a big jump in TL, and I'm not trying to start
> that kind of debate. I just think that even expert system computers
> could be a lot more flexable and powerful than are depicted in CT,MT, or
> T4.
> 
> Mike

Yep It was mine too.
I have always included Ai ships in my games, it allowed allowed more
GM interaction with the players. But, I allowed Ai ships long before
TNE.

Evyn
- -- 

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear.

But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

		Legionnaire Alan Seeger
		KIA the Somme
		AD 1916

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 14:53:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

Kenneth,

Welcome back to the list!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 01:59:27 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: CDs

> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.

One of these two, then add errata at the end of each section if needed.

Evyn
- --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:08:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: Marcus Teter <marcus@geminga.physics.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Alternate Technologies.

John,
You might include one item that I believe that the Imperium might give
themselves jurisdiction over:  PSI violations (including psi drugs).
Though this may be more appropriate to M1100.

Take care,
TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:11:30 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

>Is there any *canonical* guideline on using ship
>weapons as AP or anti-tank weaponry.

It's well covered in TNE...not that that does you much good.

Typically, a starship laser has a rate of fire between 1 pulse per 3 minutes
and 1 pulse per 20 seconds - the laser on a scout would normally be closer
to the former, but could fire at higher rates of fire with extra power
(if the ship wasn't maneuvering and could devote all power to the laser,
for example.) At ground combat ranges the laser, for all pracitcal purposes,
can't miss a vehicular target like a G-carrier; they are (as you say) 
much *much* nearer than space combat targets. A laser hit is pretty much
guaranteed to disable or destroy a G-carrier. On the other hand, the 
G-carrier's plasma guns probably deserve a 1 or 2 rating in T4 space
combat terms, and have a higher ROF, so it's not very one-sided; the PCs
will have to be clever, ambush the G-carrier, take advantage of surprise,
etc. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:14:40 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: sensor rules

Anders writes

>When will the <soon-to-be-posted Definitive Sensor Rules> be posted?
I posted them to gdw-beta recently - I'm waiting for comments before posting
them to TML (and opinions about how interested TML people are - the
rules are fairly long (about 20K.) They actually form the basis for the
new sensors in FFS2, but I have no idea at all if Marc plans to include these
rules in T4.1 - they're based on a lot of very detailed simulations of IR
and optical sensors (signal based on target's power plant radiators and
reflected sunlight, sensor sensitivity based on antenna size and temperature,
background radiation from zodiacal dust, etc.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 22:19 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

In-Reply-To: <970729104232_206316785@emout10.mail.aol.com>

> But it's so much more interesting to have a group of naval officers on the
> bridge of the Arghishilli, most with Soc clustered around 7 and one of the
> with Soc 2. Is he a nerd? A buffoon? An ambitious peasant? Son of a famous
> criminal? Does he always embarrass the ship at Naval Balls?

You're right, there should always be exceptions. See my other post about 
basing the promotion roll on Soc.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:08:13 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BC9D02.C8421280
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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 Actually, while it's not canon, here's how I handle the fact that the =
Droyne are always overlooked...

It's an subtle extension of their Invisibility power. Without stimuli, =
people in my campaign universe just tend to ignore Droyne. By =
concentrating on this power, then full invisibility can be reached.

Thus, most scout crews visiting Droyne worlds in M0 tend to downplay or =
downright forget details about the Droyne, thus obscuring the =
information.

Just my take...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+=20


- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BC9D02.C8421280
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1008.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#c8d0d0>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Actually, while =
it's not canon,=20
here's how I handle the fact that the Droyne are always =
overlooked...</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>It's an subtle extension =
of their=20
Invisibility power. Without stimuli, people in my campaign universe just =
tend to=20
ignore Droyne. By concentrating on this power, then full invisibility =
can be=20
reached.</FONT>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Thus, most scout crews =
visiting Droyne=20
worlds in M0 tend to downplay or downright forget details about the =
Droyne, thus=20
obscuring the information.</FONT>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Just my take...</FONT>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>+---------------------------------------------------------------=
- -----+<BR>|=20
Andrew Akins                                                       =
|<BR>| Home:=20
igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |<BR>| =
Work:=20
andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                   =20
|<BR>+-------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -+<BR>|=20
May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  =
|<BR>| sons=20
be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |<BR>| =
daughters=20
be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |<BR>| gifts =
from=20
eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |<BR>| lives be =
blessed=20
by the beauty that has touched mine.              |<BR>|                 =
   -=20
Number Ten Ox, &quot;Bridge of Birds&quot;             =20
|<BR>+-------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -+=20
</FONT></P></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BC9D02.C8421280--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:22:52 -0700 (MST)
From: Sanders <kalin@bambam.swlink.net>
Subject: Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything

Big deal. Roger does this frequently...I think it's called 'vapor-ware.'

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 Dedly@aol.com wrote:

> Roger Sanger is soliciting people to help him work on a new game. I'm not at
> liberty to say anything more. Try emailing him.
> 
> \_/
> DED
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:56:24 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures (Chart of contempory ranks - LONG)

Hi,

> I like having rank structures in Milieu Zero that differ from Milieu
> 1100.  The change is part of Empress Arbellatra's post-Civil War
> reform
> of the military and navy.  So whatever we come up with will be fine.

If we're going to be basing this off of comtemporty military ranks of
Earth (which makes sense, being that the RoM proceeded the 3I), then
here are some I picked off my CD-ROM encyclopedia.  It's dated 1992, so
any changes since then won't be on it (sorry if the spacing is messed up
slighlty):

BRITISH ARMY		FRENCH ARMY			SOVIET ARMY
Field Marshall		Marchel de France		Gernalissimo
							Marshall
			Chief Marshall	
			Marshall
General			General d'Armee			General
			Colonel General	
Lieutenant General	General de Corps d'Armee	Lt General
Major General		General de Division		Mjr General
Brigadier		General de Brigade		
Colonel			Colonel				Colonel
Lt Colonel		Lt Colonel			Lt Colonel
Major			Commandant			Major
Captain			Capitaine			Captain
Lieutenant		Lieutenant			Snr Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant	Sous Lieutenant			Lieutenant
							Jnr Lieutenant

Warrent Officer I	Adjutant-Chef			Praporshchik
Warrent Officer II	Adjutant			Galv Starshina
Staff Sergeant		Sergent-Major			Starshina
Sergeant		Sergent				Senior Sergeant
Corporal		Caporal-chef			Sergeant
Lance-Coporal		Caporal				Corporal
			Soldat, liere classe
Private			Soldat, 2ieme classe		Private


BRITISH NAVY		FRENCH NAVY			SOVIET NAVY
							Admiral of the Fleet
							of the USSR
Admiral of the Fleet					Admiral of the Fleet
Admiral			Admiral				Admiral
Vice-Admiral		Vice-Admiral			Vice-Admiral
Rear-Admiral		Contre-Admiral			Rear-Admiral
Commodore		Chef d'escadre			
Captain			Capitaine de vaisseau		Captain 1st Class
Commander		Capitaine de fregate		Captain 2nd Class
Lt Cmdr			Capitaine de corvette		Captain 3rd Class
Lieutenant		Lieutenant de vaisseau		Captain Lieutenant
							Senior Lieutenant
Sub-Lieutenant		Enseigne de vaisseau		Lieutenant
Midshipman		Aspirant			Junior Lieutenant

Well, I hope that's helpful to anyone making up alternate rank
structures.  Interesting to see that French ranks, it seems identify
what the person actually commands more so than English or Soviet ones
(ie. Capitaine de fregate  - Captain of a Frigate, etc.).  Also, Soviet
ones have more (rank) Class 1, etc.  Hmmm, interesting.

Thanks,
- -- 

________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"Virtually anything mentioned in a story or article can be transferred
to the Traveller environment.  Orbital cities, nuclear war, alien
societies, puzzles, enigmas, absolutely anything can occur, with
imagination being the only limit."
                                - Marc W. Miller (CT Book 3)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
The best graphics and web design - http://www.irevolution.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1627
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1628



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: Finding Comets (& other stuff) in Deep Space
Re: Traveller on CD
Zeros
More Pocket Empires
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Traveller CD and page count
Safety Feature!
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: Return to Twilights Peak?????
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Various
Traveller CDs
CD Traveller
Re: Traveller on CD
Traveller Chat
Re: Traveller CDs
Re: AI
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: sensor rules
Re: Bounty hunter
Re: Possibly a silly idea...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:05:41 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:51:59 MET
Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> writes:
>
>- -> among other things.  I do not know what was said here, but my recollection
>Yes, but in anomalies, the REFEREE data states that all droyne were 
>destroyed. That's not what the people of the time knew, that's 
>Referee data!


Hey, thanks for clearing that up for me.  I guess I hadn't read the note
I received carefully enough.  Sounds like a case for the errata list,
_unless_ there is more that I don't know about it.  Anyway, I've said
my peace.


>- -> Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)
>Please no more hints without substantiation. If you something tell 
>us, not brag about it! 


OK, next time I tell a joke, I'll include my tags:
<JOKE>
joke goes here so that my meaning is clear, and I am not arousing anybody. :)
</JOKE>


As a general rule, when I use a smiley face [ :) ], it is in a
sentence that can be totally ignored, and the meaning of my post
will still be the same.  Sometimes, it extends to a paragraph.

Sorry, but I am just having so much fun, I can hardly bear it. :)


>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>- ------  Volker A. Greimann

Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 16:54:45 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

On 07/30/97 at 07:35 PM,  "Jonas Karlsson"
<Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se> said:

>> I should think so.  I'd be happy with good JPEG images of every page,
>> and all the text in simple ASCII format.

>No, no, no! Not JPEG! 

Ok!  Ok!  Not JPEG.  ;-> Let's just make sure that anything that is picked
is a common standard available across *all* platforms, including DOS, all
versions of Win*, OS/2, Macintosh and all versions of *nix.

>My personal favourite is PNG (http://www.wco.com/~png/) which has the
>added benefit of being completely unlicensed and patent-free.

I know next to nothing about PNG, just how widespread is it now, and is it
growing or shrinking?

>Most any decent graphics program can convert to/from GIF/PNG/TIFF  at the
>very least. 

BMP, PCX, TIFF, GIF and JPEG seem to be the most common among the graphics
editing programs I have.  I didn't see PNG listed.
Ghostscript, Galleria, and PMJEG all say they can display PNG, though.

>(One would have to make sure that a 'good' version  of TIFF
>was chosen though, as it's standard is - ahem - flexible. ;-)

Please, not TIFF!  The only less standardized standard than TIFF is Unix.

>> PDF is OK, but frankly I'm not all that enamored with it.  I've never
>> had much luck printing pdf files on dotmatrix printers and even with
>> better readers like Ghostscript screen displays are clunky..on my
>> system anyway.  

>If PDF is chosen, *please* also dump a plaintext to the disk. It  would
>save me the hassle of having to go through the files to do it  myself.

That's at least 3 of us that want a plain text dump! ;->

>> HTML *looks* better on my screen, but doesn't always print well, 

>True, but then, most recent wordprocessors (like, say, WORD and WP ;-) 
>can do a fairly decent automatic conversion of HTML to their  proprietary
>format.

Sigh!  The *latest* versions of WORD and WP that *I* own are the versions
before they understood what HTML was.  (Word 6 and WP 6.1) I don't want to
upgrade either, because the new versions won't run in Win 3.1 or under
OS/2.

>> if you use HTML make sure you don't use the latest and greatest
>> version. Stick to *very* simple formatting, 

>Right. Using a text-only browser such as Lynx as a benchmark browser 
>should do nicely.

Yes, if Lynx will display the pages then Navigator/Explorer shouldn't have
a problem with them.

>I have to disagree a *little* about tables though. I like 'em. But  then,
>a well-formatted <PRE> tag does away with most of the use for  tables.

Well, if Lynx can handle the tables...;->

>Definitely no frames, however.

Hee, hee!  I don't have a problem *displaying* frames, I just consider them
a total waste of space, time and bandwidth...all sizzle and no steak.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:43:07 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Finding Comets (& other stuff) in Deep Space

Moin Franklin W. Cain,

> That's it, in a nutshell.  Basically, you use an H-bomb as a very powerful
> radar pulse.  :-) 

	but this would take several weeks to much, why not considering
	a jump torpedo ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:28:21 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

Jonas Karlsson wrote:
> > No, no, no! Not JPEG! Please. Using a self-disintegrating image format
> like JPEG is *not* a good idea for images that are going to be
> processed in any way. *Any* other *non-destructive* compressed image
> format that is reasonably well standardized (and has the image format
> definition and source code for at least one implementation available)
> would be a better idea. My personal favourite is PNG
> (http://www.wco.com/~png/) which has the added benefit of being
> completely unlicensed and patent-free. (But if I start ranting about
> how *idiotic* a concept it is to patent algorithms like Unisys did with


Please explain the meaning of self-disintegrating?  JPEG format is VERY
important to me, but I know little about it except it was supposed to be
good for images.  Whats up?

Deadeye

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 02:54:04 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Zeros

> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:53:23 -0400
> From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
> Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures
> 
> > Sergeants as "Gunny" and Naval Officers will be called "Sir" only after a
> > half-second pause to consider if they really deserve it.

Yep, I think this also the basis for the term "Zero"

> No comment.  (Just a half-second of massive orbital bombardment on all
> of your emplacements). 

I'm sorry <long pause> sir, that system is down for PMS

Evyn,
Former BM2 US Navy.
Boats, will do for a civil response.
8-)

- -- 

God knows 'twere better to be deep
Pillowed in silk and scented down,
Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
Where hushed awakenings are dear.

But I've a rendezvous with Death
At midnight in some flaming town,
When Spring trips north again this year,
And I to my pledged word am true,
I shall not fail that rendezvous.

		Legionnaire Alan Seeger
		KIA the Somme
		AD 1916

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:24:46 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: More Pocket Empires

Hi,

	Two more minor observations from Pocket Empires...

1. In Pocket Empires, Special Weapons DM's start at TL 7, i.e. 1970-1979.
Special Weapons in PE are things like biological weapons, planet busters
etc. However, I would have thought that the effectiveness of special
weapons is relative to the time / TL period. For example, American Indians
were supplied by their enemy with blankets that had been saturated with
germs / diseases that they had no immunity to. This era would be around TL 3.

2. Is there another table missing? On page 97, in the paragraph headed Ship
Homeworld, there is an example that states that an adjusted die roll of
four indicates that a ship encountering another ship will find out that it
is from its own homeworld. Where is the table that says this is so?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:16:31 -0700
From: David Kenney <dkenney@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

At 09:51 AM 97/07/29 -0700, you wrote:
>At 10:50 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 97-07-29 02:59:29 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< The Marines *should* use something like you
>> listed, but because Marine forces are most usually stationed aboard ship I
>> suggest dropping the Captain rank from their structure completely.  In
>> fact, how about dropping Captain as a *rank* in the Navy as well?  Take a
>> look at the following... >>
>>
>>So why hasn't the USMC made the change in American practice. Frankly because
>>its more fun having tradition and special rules.
>
>C'mon Marc, we're both Army vets.. we *know* the USMC make no sense
>whatsoever.  To sound a bit bold, I'm taking this chance to try and give a
>little flavor to the Imperial Marines.. eliminating the rank of Captain
>might have come from German influences on the early Terran Confederation,
>or just have been down during a reorganization  to streamline things.
>Remember, our current E1-E9 enlisted structure didn't exist until 1958.
>
>I imagine Sr. Force Lieutenants will be addressed as "Skipper" by their
>troops, to show that as far as they are concerned, HE is the commanding
>officer around here.  The company S/SGT will be addressed as "Top", Gunnery
>Sergeants as "Gunny" and Naval Officers will be called "Sir" only after a
>half-second pause to consider if they really deserve it.
>--
>+------------------------------------------------+
>|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
>| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
>|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
>|               Canon Correctness                |
>|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
>|************************************************|
>| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
>|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
>|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
>+------------------------------------------------+
>
>

Should have known the Army Doggies would start to gang up against the
Marines.  Just because we did something you never thought would work.  :-)

Overall I think the subtle changes in most of the posts would add a bit of
color to the structure.  I would keep the Naval Captain though as a rank
and use Commodore for a Captain (O-6), or any officer that outranks the
ship's Captain regardless of rank, that is aboard ship but not part of her
crew.

David Kenney
SSgt    USMC


To our Marines fell the most difficult and dangerous portion of the defense
by reason of our proximity to the great city wall and the main city gate...
The Marines acquitted themselves nobly.

(Mr. Edwin N. Conger, U.S. Minister, in commending the Marines for the
defense of the legations at Peking, China, in 1900)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:42:01 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

And now to step in it deeply...  Several of the previous posts discuss how
much or how little space the previously published CT etc. materials would
take on CD.  H-Bar Enterprises, of Oakman, AL, sells the Official Records
of the (American) Civil War (title garbled, but any American history buffs
out there will recognize it) on CD. It consists of scanned page images as
well as a reasonable search engine (Folio VIP).  All 127 volumes (average
volume length = 890 pages) as well as original print indices (3 more vols)
fit onto one CD.  Granted, pages are only midway in size between a digest
and a full-size page, but I cannot imagine the collected CT, as well as MT
and TNE, as taking more space than these...   I did a bit of cutting and
pasting (from the OR to WordPad) and it seems to work fine...  I really
don't see the issue of getting CT et al onto a CD (and would be quite happy
to pay for it!) other than the (tedious) task of actually scanning the
stuff. Unless I missed something completely...
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:31:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Safety Feature!

  I guess no one told you - that's a broadcast on vacc-suit helmet radio 
frequencies just so you know that the great big ship in question is 
powered up and should be given the right-of-way. You wouldn't believe
the track they're required to use when they back up.

>Everybody know (in Hollywood at least) that all spaceships emit a low 50 Hz
>hum at TL 9+ (post Alien the movie). Curiously enough though these sounds
>are only heard from the outside in vacuum (!) never within the ship except
>possibly in the drive room.


>     Various lift noises (ping! bing! "Which floor would you like?" voice)

  "Are you sure you wouldn't like some toast?"

        Sadly, not anonymous. Please don't hurt me.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:22:57 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

At 16:54 30/07/97 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>>(One would have to make sure that a 'good' version  of TIFF
>>was chosen though, as it's standard is - ahem - flexible. ;-)
>
>Please, not TIFF!  The only less standardized standard than TIFF is Unix.

	Yes, TIFF always seems rather inconsistent; one TIFF file will load while
another will report a problem. Plus the file sizes seem to be much larger
than say GIF.
>
>>If PDF is chosen, *please* also dump a plaintext to the disk. It  would
>>save me the hassle of having to go through the files to do it  myself.

	Couldn't plain ascii be planted on the disk, and a reader that picks it up
and displays it in a prettier, more graphical font be used? You'd have
malleable ascii and something nice to look at all in one go then!
>
>>Definitely no frames, however.
>
>Hee, hee!  I don't have a problem *displaying* frames, I just consider them
>a total waste of space, time and bandwidth...all sizzle and no steak.
>
	That's your opinion mate! Check out my web site (URL below) It's nothing
to do with Traveller however, that one is still to come, when I finish the
projects I'm working on for it that is! But you'll get an idea of what a
more ergonomic use of frames can do. I think so anyway ;-)

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:11:43 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Return to Twilights Peak?????

At 01:58 30/07/97 -0400, Tom Trelenberg wrote:
>A while back I posted a question concerning CT Adv #3:  Twilights Peak.
>One of the responses I got from a fellow TMLer (Daniel Poulin?--sorry I
>have a terrible memory) was that they had put together a "Return to
>Twilights Peak" adventure and that they might be coerced into posting it
>(or at least send the gist of it privately to those interested).  Please
>don't tell me that the RCCC has scared you into silence :-{  (If you are
>still worried, I will lend you one of my TL35 RoM battledresses--I have
>several dozen--they were common by the end of the 2nd Imp--Since I
>started wearing mine, none of my gaming sessions has come under any
>sucessful RCCC attack! :-})
>
>Also....Anders if you've played lately and can find the time I would
>like to hear how your "life beyond TP" is progressing (I'm not being
>obnoxious--just persistent)
>
>Thanks
>
>TT
>
Not me (Deny, Deny, when caught, Lie).  However, in this case, I am saying
the truth.  I only provided you with my personal interpretation of the small
inconsistencies on the scenario.  I do seem to remember someone else
mentionning (for you english speaking individuals out there: does that last
word take two n?) that he was working on such a scenario.  Since I am
running a new group through the original, it would be nice to have some ideas.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:56:12 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

> Kenneth,
> 
> Welcome back to the list!
> 
> Eris

Thanks, Eris.  I'm really not back on the list, though.  I've still 
got a lot keeping me away--it's just that I'm trying to keep my 
Traveller game running too, and this laser sight question came up.

Where else to find a better answer to such a question than this list?

Thanks for the warm welcome, though.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:58:13 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Various

>Subject: Re: GSBAG
>- -> Anyway, Horizon Starship Company was what was intended.
>Hmm, thanks Loren. 
>Horizon fits the word quite nicely...The Horizon is the biggest area 
>of possible view ;-).
>So now we know! It's good to have the Great Old Ones on the list ;-)

Oh. I must have been failing my SAN checks. Actually, that rather
explains a lot...


  On a more serious note, if a _CT_ resource CD were done
separately of other material (which should avoid any license
questions, as well) who would pay around $80 US for it?

  This represents around 50 little books, of a bit under 50
pages average. Assuming an absolute maximum of 10m/page once
tooled up, that represents 400-man/slave/cultist hours of
semi-skilled labour to produce as OCR'd/spell-checked .txt files.
No "corrective" editing beyond scan errors, and the big honking
spell-checker library additions can be included, too.

  Assume around $5 physical production costs, mail-order, and
several hundred sales from the list (someone talked about 30
sales in their group of acquaintances), selling a run of 1000
units in about 18 months. Again, measures to reduce losses of
sales from circulation or reproduction of materials seems needed.

  The sales figures are WAG, of course, but the rest isn't so
far off. I understand IG is very good at doing mail order, and
I doubt they feel a need to involve needless middle-men. This
could be a well-needed cash cow.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:04:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Traveller CDs

Scanning and OCR of the Traveller text will have to be done carefully. My
early experiments indicated that "Aslan" sometimes comes through as "Asian"
and "Vland" sometimes as "Viand". 

To name two...

Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:06:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: CD Traveller

> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:33:18 -0700
> From: scharlto@ifsna.com
> Subject: CD Traveller

> Actually, my ideal situation would be:

> This would be something I would
> willingly plunk down $100.00 for.  And as others have mentioned, I suspect
> a lot of this work could even be done by a subset of TML members in
> exchange for a free copy of the CD.
> 
> Give this one some thought, Marc.  I think it might turn out to be fairly
> popular.  I suspect you could easily handle this as an internet-only offer
> to reduce marketing costs.  I imagine you could sell at least 100 copies to

> Steven Charlton

What Steve said.

- --Glenn Goffin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:49:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

deadeye@ebicom.net said:
> Please explain the meaning of self-disintegrating?  JPEG format is VERY
> important to me, but I know little about it except it was supposed to be
> good for images.  Whats up?

I think what Jonas was trying to say is that JPEG is a lossy image
format. You don't notice so much for photographic images, but you'd
notice a loss with "cartoonish" - or graphic art - images. The
self-disintegrating feature would only happen if you re-saved it as a
JPEG over multiple iterations so that the losses involved with the format
would be cumulative.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:02:34 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

I'm back this week and thinking that Nobles in Milieu 0 sounds like a 
good topic of discussion.

Same launch time, same jump point.

Imperium Games Web Server
www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 & 6666
9:00pm Central, 8:30 for the early birds <G>

Look forward to seeing everyone!

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 22:42:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller CDs

On 07/30/97 at 10:04 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

>Scanning and OCR of the Traveller text will have to be done carefully. My
>early experiments indicated that "Aslan" sometimes comes through as
>"Asian" and "Vland" sometimes as "Viand". 

Hey, that's what spell checkers are for.  Don't you already have Aslan,
Vland, Zhodani, Solimani, et. al. in your user dictionary? ;->

Eris,
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:25:35 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: AI

Moin Evyn MacDude,

> Yep It was mine too.
> I have always included Ai ships in my games, it allowed allowed more
> GM interaction with the players. But, I allowed Ai ships long before
> TNE.

	Look at Kinunir the classic ship AI.

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:10:03 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

Moin Jonas Karlsson,

> I have to disagree a *little* about tables though. I like 'em. But 
> then, a well-formatted <PRE> tag does away with most of the use for 
> tables. Definitely no frames, however.

	Or just the other way round .... 

	leave text as plain text, pictures as gifs, and use frames
	to suround the staff. So anybody using N$ can browse it, while
	the text is not full of html-garbarge.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:39:21 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: sensor rules

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> >When will the <soon-to-be-posted Definitive Sensor Rules> be posted?
> I posted them to gdw-beta recently - I'm waiting for comments before posting
> them to TML 

	btw gdw-beta: is it posible to get on this list ?

> (and opinions about how interested TML people are - the
> rules are fairly long (about 20K.) They actually form the basis for the
> new sensors in FFS2, but I have no idea at all if Marc plans to include these
> rules in T4.1 - they're based on a lot of very detailed simulations of IR
> and optical sensors (signal based on target's power plant radiators and
> reflected sunlight, sensor sensitivity based on antenna size and temperature,
> background radiation from zodiacal dust, etc.)

	Would you like to email them to me. I'll cross read it together
	with a naval officier ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:33:03 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Bounty hunter

Moin John_Wood@cbtsys.com,

> Thanks to everyone who chipped in with those bounty hunting suggestions,
> they were great.

	A great oportunity for bounty hunters is finding stolen ships.

	Any Imperial bank hands out lists of serial numbers of jump
	drive, power plants, computers, contra graph and a lot of
	other equipment which was on a ship that now left imperial
	boarder and didnt pay for subsidary contract since years.

	Finding these ships, and hijacking it together with the
	captain, normaly brings 10% of the ships price !

	Other typical jobs are finding the wife of mister jones
	who is the boss of the bank, or rescueing his daughter.

	BTW imperial law normaly is only on startport, sometime
	on downport also, at this places no imperial bounty
	hunters are needed and wanted, as the imperium holds law.

	Each planet has its own law code, and weapons should be
	under this law code. Some planets provide weapon permits
	for holders of the Imperial Class I Licence. These license
	alows ownership of class I equipment at starports, any
	captain has one because of the turret lasers.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Possibly a silly idea...

> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:37:09 -0400
> From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
> 
> *****************************************
> People a while ago were complaining at a lack of 'human input' in THUDDD.
> Craig responded with the 'literary THUDDD' aka the noble's yacht. However,
> this didn't seem to get as big a response..
> *****************************************
> 
> ....But as was pointed out, the voting response was much higher.

I'm preparing to tabulate the votes as I type this (download in
progress), and the final vote count was about twice normal.  I was very
surprised, and quite pleased.

[Good comments snipped]

> On the yacht design....most of the info was just such a good read. 

Yes, I was *very* happy with how this worked out.

> Futhermore the time spent in detailing appearances made each ship
> uniquely stick out in my mind (who can forget the image of releaving
> yourself while simultaneously being able to view the vastness of space
> through a hugh forward window.....or better yet, on the ground, waving
> to the starport controllers :-} )

Who indeed!  It happened that there was a small in-person get-together of
TML folk in Los Angeles last week, and FSY's 'Imelda' class was the
subject of much praise and laughter.  But all of the imagery from this
THUDDD was evocative, well thought out, intriguing, and most important of
all, instantly useable by GMs in their own games.

>  I got a "feel" for the ship almost imediately.  Maybe thats just
> because I don't have a finely honed "engineering" sense...but I'd wager
> that I am not alone. 

That 'feeling' -- that *kind* of feeling -- is what I was chasing.  Being
a gearhead myself, I can 'see' a ship in my head from just the raw
numbers, with a sketchy description...but there's a lot to be said for
fleshing out the details, too.  I'd say it's similar to the different
views of the same building that an architect and an interior designer
have. 

> So after all that I have said above I would like to say this:
> 
> Thank you to the gearheads who make all the cutting edge designs--I
> appreciate your effort and am glad to have many a library of fine ships
> to pull out when I need them...and forgive me for not getting the time
> to review them before voting deadlines........but also, I for one would
> like to see further "human input" THUDDD competitions every now and
> again.

There *definitely* will be, perhaps every fourth THUDDD or so.  The next
one may well be a battered TL-11 free trader...sound interesting to
anyone?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1628
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1629



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CD Size
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: cd rom project
THUDDD 5 Results!!!
TL10 Ships
Ship Noise
CD economics - long (again)
Droyne Homeworld
>Re: CD's
Re[2]: Is DGP ever going to do anything
Re[2]: Is DGP ever going to do anything
Ship vs Vehicle
AI Ships and Darrians
CD Rom
Re: Various
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)
Re: Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?
Re : Traveller on CD
Pocket Empire Queries

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:40:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: CD Size

In mail you write:

> CD-ROms are only 630 MB or so... average 8x10.5 (normal scanned area of
> 8.5x11 letter) at 300 dpi B&W (1bit) bitmap is 1.02 MB per page,
> uncompressed. Most graphics compression is about 50%, some compress more,
> but sacrifice resolution. so 1200 pages would be about the limit for
> scanned pages as images... as a ROUGH estimate.

Don't forget that a *lot* of the CT stuff is on 5.5x8.5 pages. That
doubles the number of pages.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:44:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

In mail you write:

>>I should think so.  I'd be happy with good JPEG images of every page, and
>>all the text in simple ASCII format.
>
> I'd say you scan them at 300 dpi and save them as LZW TIFF 1-bit instead of
> JPEG. JPEG is great for continous tone stuff like photographs and such but
> really crummy on B&W which most Traveller material is done in. 

I agree that images should be TIFF files as most OCR type software (say
the stuff that comes with fax software) can handle TIFF. My old OCR
unit *produces* TIFF files. And it is black & white only, no gray scale.

For most items in the CT books and even in all but the later issues of
JTAS you only need black, white, and one "primary" color (red, blue,
etc). The covers of JTAS started halftoned art about midway thru, and
then went to 4-color. But the interiors remained 2-color process. It's
cheaper. And it means that the interior text and illos can be easily
compressed due to there only being two colors (and white). Using a
format with say 16 colors should save *tons* of space. And the pages
that are only black and white can use 2 two color. Only the covers and
few rare items will need 256 or more colors.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:57:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: cd rom project

In mail you write:

> So I asked her what her opinion was of this project. She reminded me of
> a job she worked on when she first started her business. It involved
> re-setting the benefits package for a major department store, combining
> two booklets of about 20-30 pages each. She used what was state of the
> art OCR program (about 6 years ago), I can't remember the name of it and
> she doesn't use it any longer. The up shot is she said that even with
> the OCR it took about 15  - 30 minutes of proofreading and editing per
> page, (by admittedly non-professional but reasonable intelligent proof
> readers, myself among them :^) Now I hope that the present state of the
> art OCR programs are somewhat better than the one she used for that job,
> she nor I know, since we haven't used them since.
> This is not to say that I think this project should be set aside, it's
> just "looking at the facts". THe conclusion I'm trying to get to is I DO
> think it's possible but I have to agree that it would take a lot of
> work! Now I've seen 3-4 people that have volunteers (me too, I was
> serious about that as well!), and I'm sure there are more. The hints
> I've picked up is that some of it has already been done. If Far Future
> or IG would  take on the job of co-ordination I would still like to
> offer that VOLUNTEER time to scan and proof read.

I may have to try getting my (ancient) OCR unit working. I can't do a
lot of stuff, but I could try. Or we may have OCR software for the
scanner at work. 

I *know* that it'll take lots of proofreading. And the hardest part
will be *not* correcting typos in the original or fixing grammar etc.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 5 Results!!!

On behalf of the Imperial Ship Builders Association, its member
corporations and entities, and with respect and salutation to our glorious
Emperor, Cleon I, and to all sophonts in our proud Empire, I am pleased
and honored to announce the winner of the fifth THUDDD ship design
competion...

[drum roll, fanfare]

Famille Spofulam Yards, with the 'Imelda' class yacht!

[loud applause, turning to a standing ovation]

We of the ISBA are thrilled to present this trophy to Famille Spofulam
Yards; may their continued excellence shine as a beacon for all Imperial
shipbuilders! 

[he proffers the iridium-plated near-c rock, on a tasteful voorwood
mounting]

[OOC}

Yep, nobody does wretched excess like FSY, whether in weapon systems or in
obscene opulence.  Significantly for this THUDDD, the 'Imelda' was judged
the best-written entry as well.  Here are the full results in brief; a
more fleshed-out version (with entrant and firm names) will be released
RSN.

Overall Design:
 1.  2.78 - Imelda
 2.  3.20 - Rising Star
 3.  3.56 - Xanadu

Most Likely to Use in a Game:
 1.  3.30 - Rising Star
 2t. 3.56 - Ludwig
 2t. 3.56 - Xanadu
(5.  3.78 - Imelda)

Most Unusual Design:
 1.  2.89 - Ludwig
 2.  3.44 - Imelda
 3t. 4.00 - Rising Star
 3t. 4.00 - Sluce

Best-Written Description:
 1.  2.67 - Imelda
 2.  3.10 - Rising Star
 3.  3.22 - Ludwig

My thanks and congratulations to all the contestants!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:29:00 -0700
From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
Subject: TL10 Ships

I have just started to work with the starship construction system in T4.
I'm fairly new to this list so forgive me if this has been brought up
before.

I want to design a lower tech (TL-10) Survey vessel. I was thinking of
something along the lines of a 200 ton ship with 2G acceleration. Looking
on the chart I see fuel requirements are 14.3 tons per 20 hours. How long
is an average flight? 

I did some calculations and found it will take about 12 hours for the ship
to reach jump distance on a size class A world. How close do ships arrive
to the destination when they leave jump? The first adventure in the
Anomalies collection requires the players to putter about in system for at
least 200 hours, that would require 143 tons of fuel just for the HEPlaR
drive!

I downloaded the QSDS v1.5 from the web, and its much worse! According to
it the same HEPlaR drive requires 5 tons of fuel per hour. That would
require 1,000 tons of fuel for the first adventure in anomalies.

Am I missing something obvious, or are HEPlaR drive just worthless?

Eric J
Alric@SpryNet.Com
Fuzion Page: http://members.aol.com/rfintnl/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:39:25 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Ship Noise

>Here are my ideas :
>Air flowing inside life supported zones
>Little buzz from the G-compensators

Call it more of a humm

>Maybe some vibrations coming from Fusion plant

I don't think so... maybe from the fuel system

>Surely some (noisy) vibrations coming from heplar when activated

RUMBLE RUMBLE RUMBLE when working.

>Maybe something coming from the jump grid while in J-space

I generally use a soft snaping/crackling/static noise.


and you forgot one: A hum from the lights.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:34:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: CD economics - long (again)

>Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases
>like this might cut into sales of *new* product, I *really* don't think
>that would happen, but it is probably a concern.  

  I suggest the (circumstantial, admittedly) evidence indicates that
this won't be a significant problem.

>Simple scanning of 6,000 pages would take how long?  Would 10 minutes per

  Why not try the 50-odd black books, or two sets of 25 or so (Books and
Supplements; Adventures & DA's)? That gives you about 2400 or 1200 pages
to scan/OCR/minimal edit; maximum 10 minutes a page. Tops out at about
400 hours semi-skilled labour, at say $10/hour (students have uses).

>done costing..let's say $10/disk..for production and packaging, that would

  Probably rather under $5 each, not counting mastering by the actual
producer - or so I was told by someone I was trying to get a quote out of.

  Admin and advertising should be low - plug it on-line and in your
own T4/M:0 products. Run, say 1,000 disks for about $10-15K, mail
order adding S&H, say $80 or 50-60 for 25 book versions (modifying
for price points),

  If the budget explodes to $20K US and sales suck, two or three hundred
units covers your costs. If it works, even better. If it turns out to be
a real hit (and this will likely involve eventual retail coverage and
a lower price per package - OK, cut back the contents), just print another
thousand for $3 or 4K US, and giggle madly until the comptroller puts you
away - or vice versa.

Oh, and thanks to that Mega-Traveller demi-god who sent me Supps 11/12. One
to go!
  Pst, anyone have a copy of Supplement 10 to spare?

  Sorry for the proselytizing.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:39:30 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Droyne Homeworld

Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!

_Secret of the Anchients_ puts the droyne homeworld in Yaskodray's pocket
universe; he pinched it off AROUND the droyne homesystem. Said system was
in the Spinward Marches. Unfortunately, I cannot give more detail, as I
don't have my own copy of that adventure (yet)


And, so as to get me a shot at getting it:


 A refresher on whan't up on the block:
I am willing to Sell or trade any of the Following (Prices negotiable)
        Imperial Encyclopedia (MT), Cover damage, highlighted
        MT Rebellion SourceBook (GDW), gd Cond
        MT COACC (GDW) gd Cond


As for my Wish List ( have FFE's Price list for most, and am trying to
acquire money for these, or trades)
I am looking  for (in good or better shape):
        Dbl Adv 4 (GDW, CT)
        Adv 2,4,7,11,12 (GDW, CT)
        5th Frontier War Boardgame (Ditto)
        The Adjutant #'s: 2, 7, 8, 11+
        TD's 1-7,

Next decision date is 15 August 97...semi-sealed bid auction. Notice of
others bidding on same stuff will be given; ammounts and types not given
until final decisions are made. Trades are actually considered in this
auction...

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 07:42:56 +0100
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: >Re: CD's

Speaking as someone who recently started scanning some old CT products 
for my own use. I came across a few things that people aught to be aware 
of. My idea was to have a database that I could easily search and cross 
reference, so my ultimate output is to be html. Many searching facilities 
already built into computers can search text files. from my experimenting 
pdf arn't text files - you need a viewer (more software).

Having scanned some stuff you still need to check it by eye for errors 
and formatting. It took me 5 (lunch) hours to do one small black book 
even then it still has some glitches. Tables are a real pain (spc or tab 
or whatever). The character gen tables in the alien modules are the 
worst. I think pictures need to scanned as well they add to the flavour 
what resolution 72dpi or 300dpi?. some maps just don't scan well (blue on 
light grey) retouching in photoshop can take ages. I'm thinking along the 
lines of how to represent a subsector/sector map for html - Get a 
computer to draw it then take a jpg snapshot? There are also mistakes in 
the original texts to sort. The whole thing will take a while to do.

Also who owns copyright on the artists work, will the artists need to 
contacted for permission.

And no I won't send you the files...


David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1997 08:31:15 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Is DGP ever going to do anything

Roger Sanger is soliciting people to help him work on a new game. I'm not at 
liberty to say anything more. Try emailing him.
     
\_/
DED

     What's his e-mail address?
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1997 08:31:15 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Is DGP ever going to do anything

Roger Sanger is soliciting people to help him work on a new game. I'm not at 
liberty to say anything more. Try emailing him.
     
\_/
DED

     What's his e-mail address?
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:37:32 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Ship vs Vehicle

>>Is there any *canonical* guideline on using ship
>>weapons as AP or anti-tank weaponry.
>
>It's well covered in TNE...not that that does you much good.

It is also covered in MT. Player's manual has stats for all covered ship
weapons, except meson guns and disintigrators (i've got a fix for that,
will post once I triple check my maths while not in pain) and missiles, in
the same formats as personal and support weapons. (Actually, for missiles,
but I just use the stats from COACC).

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1997 08:40:42 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: AI Ships and Darrians

SNIP

Yep It was mine too.
I have always included Ai ships in my games, it allowed allowed more 
GM interaction with the players. But, I allowed Ai ships long before 
TNE.
     
Evyn
- --

For some *great* inspiration about AI ships, I *very* highly 
recommend most of the Ian M Banks 'Culture' novels.  The tech level 
is a little beyond Traveller.  However, it might be interesting for 
the Darrians to have some such ships left over from their earlier 
days ...

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:37:26 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: CD Rom

(responding to a bunch of different posters... my apologies for lack of
credit/blame...;-)

>years old, with no HTML support).  If I want to use some of the text in a
>word-processor document, I will have to clean out all the HTML rubbish
>first.  And certainly I will want to use the text in my own documents; a

Most browsers can strip HTML, including LYNX, mosaic, netscape, and IE. You
just save as Text, and you get a preformatted text document. Having worked
with publishing pages under all the above... I found it quite useful when
asked to provide copy of the pages in word to a prof. I simply did the save
as, and then opened the text in word, and saved as a word file.


>OTOH, if the production run is only 500 disks (still at $10/disk) you'd
>still have to cover $40,000 to $45,000 in costs. Per disk cost goes up to
>$80 to $90, and retail price would be $160 to $180.
>
>So, guys, what's the likely market?

I dunno... I KNOW that every hard-core traveller fan I know wants one, and
it would be a good general release item... I know of 5 people in Anchorage
AK alone who would buy it sight unseen (including myself), in just about
any format, provided it is text, html, or some other textual format (as
opposed to image formats), and is mac and wintel compatable. I DON'T know
all the traveller players and GM's in anchorage, BTW.

I'd say do at least 3000 disks... so that the new traveller fans can get
ahold of it, too. (If there are ~400, and most of us know 5 or six people
who will buy it, say 2/3ds of us, 320 x 5 = 1600). Basically, for every one
of us and our friends who buy one, so will some nobody. Also, CD Roms have
shelf life. All you have to do is recover the initial costs, and many
places will copy CD's for $30 or less. (I can get copies of CD's mad
locally, one-off's, for $35, assuming it's on disk alone. Archival copies
of existing ROMs, $15.)

as far as self-destuctive formats, JPEG (I know from experience) is touchy
in the folloiwing way (each entry is a version of the image)
        scan to bitmap
        save as jpeg
        open JPEG later to bitmap
        resave as JPEG
and you've got two DIFFERENT JPEGs. Most software I've seen pulls files
into a Bitmap of some kind, and you can manipulate that. I used .GIF while
providing images for a telecourse, as .JPEG just does not work well on TV,
or scaled, or any number of other tweaky things that you have to do to put
scanned images on live TV. [nb: I learned to LOVE MS Powerpoint. But only
on a mac. ;-)] .GIF and JPEG are both standards for the web, as far as I
have seen (NCSA Mosaic, NS, and IE all handle both internally).

> Couldn't plain ascii be planted on the disk, and a reader that picks it up
>and displays it in a prettier, more graphical font be used? You'd have
>malleable ascii and something nice to look at all in one go then!

the Mac standard text editor (SimpleText) has font and style controls.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1997 08:50:49 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Various

SNIP
  On a more serious note, if a _CT_ resource CD were done
separately of other material (which should avoid any license 
questions, as well) who would pay around $80 US for it?
     
Me!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:19:36 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

Kenneth wrote:

>I've seen mention, in weapon descriptions in the EA, of laser sights. 
> The TL 13 Guass Pistol, for instance, lists laser sighting.

I don't have T4, but I usually use Laser sight.

>But, there are no game mechanics printed in the weapon description 
>for laser sighting.  Like other sights, I would think that laser 
>sighting adds a +DM to the attack throw.

TNE assume this system for fire fights :

In semi auto mode
Up to 5 shots per round. The first one can be an AIMED one if you've spent
a round to aim. An aimed action has a difficuly level lowered.

Now, the Laser sight allow you to have 3 aimed shot pour round (instead of
one). This is available inside the range of the Laser (which usually is 240m)

So if you don't aim, Laser sight are no use.
And then, in auto mode, you cannot have aimed shots so the laser sight
doesn't help.


That all I'm thinking about

Hope that helps

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:18:51 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)

Deadeye wrote:

>Please explain the meaning of self-disintegrating?  JPEG format is VERY
>important to me, but I know little about it except it was supposed to be
>good for images.  Whats up?

Yes, JPEG is good for images (pictures). But not for B/W Drawings and
nearly awful for text.

JPEG works only in true colors (24 bits). It cannot work on color palet. It
convert the picture into a set of functions (signals). Some functions have
members which are high frequency (you can find them on color straight
changes). If you remove those high frequency, you might not notice it, or
you'll need to have the original to notice the difference. As a g=E9n=E9ral
aspect, the borders seems to smooth.

If you have to sharp borders, you can even have an oscillating effect which
can double your border. In all cases your border would be a little thicker.
In case of an B/W drawing, some point of this border can be converted to
grey, which is usually dirty.=20

So JPEG remove a part of information from your picture. In case of full
colored pictures, you won't notice it). In case on B/W drawings and
especially text, it immediatly seems dirty. Text has many high frequency
functions.
The remaove part can be controled when you convert the picture. The more
you remove, the more shorter the file is. IMO even a slight remove will be
noticed on text.

Further more you have to convert you 1bits picture into a 24bits picture
before converting. In this cas GIF might be more compact than JPG

Because GIF doesn't remove information from you picture, you are sure to
have exaclty the same picture as it could into a plain format such as BMP.
I think that GIF works only on 256 color palet. I'm not sure you wouldn't
have to convert you 1bits picture into 8bits picture before converting it.=
=20

IMO, JPEG format is irrevelant for Traveller pages. The only application
would be the covert pages. As GIF is used on every plateform and well known


If someone could scan a single Traveller page and convert it into JPEG and
GIF and then put it onto a WEB or FTP server it would be great. So we could
try to have a better opinion.

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:18:29 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?

Andrew Akins wrote
> Subject: Re: Droyne - was Is T4 Traveller?

>  Actually, while it's not canon, here's how I handle the fact that the =
> Droyne are always overlooked...
> 
> It's an subtle extension of their Invisibility power. Without stimuli, =
> people in my campaign universe just tend to ignore Droyne. By =
> concentrating on this power, then full invisibility can be reached.
> 
> Thus, most scout crews visiting Droyne worlds in M0 tend to downplay or =
> downright forget details about the Droyne, thus obscuring the =
> information.

This is a very good idea.  I think this explains why the Droyne [in the
conspiratorial Traveller Universe you are about to enter] allowed the
knowledge that the Droyne were the Ancients to slip out.  They are
hoping that people will start to forget about the Ancients as well once
they know they are/were Droyne.  If you look at the library data in
Traveller a lot of Droyne worlds are also Anicent sites (and in T4 _all_
Droyne worlds are Ancient sites - which I think is a mistake as some
Droyne should have moved in the past 300,000 years).  The Droyne are
probably tired of all those annoying Anthroplogists bothering them.

[Conspiratorial mode intensifies - begin rant]

"We must destroy the dirty stinking Zho mind peepers and their Droyne
puppet masters ! [Speaker pauses to wipe the froth from his lips] 
Haven't you always wondered how the Joeys have always been able to do so
well in the Frontier Wars despite our advantages of Technical
superiority, a defensive position, larger forces, and the pure hearts
that come from the righteousness of our cause ?  It is because their
Droyne Fifth column is destroying us from within with the aid of their
unholy Ancient technology !  No longer will we suffer these treacherous
alien scum to live !! KILL THEM ALL !!!"

[Speech recorded in Central Courtyard B, Cleon University, Benca ,
Capitol/Core on 127-1116 by an unidentified rabble rouser.  IMOJ Agents
on the scene were about to arrest the perpetrator [advocating genocide
against a Imperial subject species is sedition under Book 5, page 192,
paragraph 4, sentance 2 of the Uniform Code of Imperial Law - 1095
Revised Edition] when he disapeered in full view or a crowd of 500
people.  IMOJ agents were beginning their investigation when, less than
1 week later, more serious events [Strephons death on 132-1116]
interfered with their inquiry]

Coincidence or Ancient plot ?  You be the judge.

[End rant mode] :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 04:23:26 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re : Traveller on CD

Hi All,

IMAGES -

  Better choice of image format than PNG, JPEG , GIF or TIFF =
  would be Iterated System's Fractal Compression stuff ( *.FIF )
  which achieves (lossy) compression of 100 to 1 and better.

  I think that text should be scanned in, and OCR'd, not kept
  as images. There are plenty of packages to do this automatically
  - Xerox do the best one, IIRC.

DOCUMENTS -

  A lot of Traveller stuff was written on computers, especially
  the DGP stuff. Any chance the authors still have the original
  document files ? =


  Personally, I would think that PDF and other heavy document
  formats are overkill. Simple HTML is a lot smaller for the same =
  content and has the advantage of active content ( Java, =
  JavaScript etc ) to provide any number of customised =
  navigational aids, tools, you name it.

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:41:57 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Pocket Empire Queries

Hi Bruce,

Re: Two more minor observations from Pocket Empires...

>1. In Pocket Empires, Special Weapons DM's start at TL 7, i.e. 1970-1979...

Yes, you can always use your TL advantage to help you against an enemy, but
this is partly absorbed into the costing for a given level of military force
decreasing by TL. The TL7+ Special Weapons are *fast acting*, *wide area of
effect* weapons, which will make a substantial difference over the
relatively short (few months) game turns for PE.

>2. Is there another table missing? On page 97, in the paragraph headed Ship
>Homeworld, there is an example that states that an adjusted die roll of
>four indicates that a ship encountering another ship will find out that it
>is from its own homeworld. Where is the table that says this is so?

No Table. I've not had a chance to check the book, not having it here at
work, but the original text submitted was:

>SHIP HOMEWORLD
>
>Roll 1D and apply the following DMs to determine where the ship is from.
>
>System has a starport of class: A or B, DM +1; E, DM +2.
>System is Jump-2 from all other worlds, DM +1.
>System is Jump-3 (or greater) from all other worlds, DM +3.
>
>************
>On a result of 1-4, the ship is from the local system. On a result of 5-6
it >is a visitor from another system.
>************
>
>///BEGIN EXAMPLE
>
>For the Khuir military escort encounter, we roll 1D for 3, +1 for the class
B >starport. The result of 4 indicates that the ship is from Khuir itself.
>
>///END EXAMPLE

Andy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1629
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1630



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tactical Scenario
Re: Deep Space Bases
Re: Deep Space
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
Re: CT/MT Re-releases
Re: More fuel related discussion
Droyne Homeworld
AI Ships and Darrians
Auction Update: RPG Items (Traveller, Space 1889, AD&D)
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Fencing Styles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:17:15 GMT
From: lansford@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:30:32, Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it> wrote:


>The city has no real artillery. The state is quite small and
>it's very distant from any other potentially troublesome
>neighbours. The ruler has eradicated bandits and other local
>threats some years ago. The local militia is more like a
>heavy-duty police than a real army. From a military point of
>view the city has no chance to put up any kind of resistance.
>The mercenaries hope that the population will realize that in
>the interval between noon and midnight, and will (wisely) decide
>to hand out the hostage.

In that case I'd say the city ruler could very easily give them what
(who) they wanted in exchange for leaving his city alone. They have no
credible defense even if their attackers were the same TL as they are.

>The Mercs would really like to get the job done with minimum
>violence.

A reasonable expectation given the situation.

>I think that a two legged armored creature which packs rapid
>fire weapons could cause some worry to people. Local culture is
>struggling not to revert back to lower TL and tend to scavenge
>and mantain old stuff instead of designing or producing
>Victorianesque technological marvels.=20

In that case a demonstration by the walkers would be more than enough
to get whatever the mercs wanted from the city. Recall that in the
Civil War both sides regularly extorted sizable sums from cities that
had no defenders. In this case the intimidation factor will be even
higher than having 10,000 armed troops show up in the city outskirts.

>Again, I fully realize that, but I suspect that my players would
>be inclined to go for a "Seven Samurai/Battle of the
>Bulge/A-team" scenario and would like to assess some plans for
>this. They will have more or less ten hours to devise a battle
>plan.
>The three players have little Military experience in RL (and no
>starship experience, AFAIK), so I find fair that I, as a GM,
>supply them with some facts that their Characters would be able
>to know. This is the main reason for asking over the TML.

Do they have access to any advanced digging equipment? The walkers
would be susceptible to falling into holes (deep ones), especially
ones that were camoflaged. Once they are immobilized they would be
vulnerable to being pried open and disabled, even by low tech natives.
Arranging deadfalls, perhaps by setting charges that dump a stone
building on them, could at least inconvenience a walker or a squad of
mercs. Such actions are a bit rough on the city though.

>The other one is that I'd like to play the Mercs in an
>intelligent (but not *too* intelligent) way. They count on
>surprise, superior technology and the willingness to extract a
>dead body, if necessary.

They don't need to act "intelligent". They are secure in their
firepower and know what the opposition will have. Think Imperial
Stormtroopers in Return of the Jedi on Endor. They too thought their
armor and firepower would be more than enough against Eewoks and the
odd rebel infantryman.

> In their opinion, these three factors
>should be enough to convince the defenders to just give up. They
>don't know that the PC's are in the city and have no reason to
>expect any surprise.

In a normal situation this would be the correct thinking, too.

>This is one of the points I'd like to discuss, especially with
>someone which have extensive experience with Starship
>design/tactics. =20
>Consider that the fight would be at a very short distance, and
>even if the G-carriers are quite smaller than your average
>starship, they will be much (*much*) nearer then usual space
>combat targets. Is there any *canonical* guideline on using ship
>weapons as AP or anti-tank weaponry.

There was a Megatraveller book titled COACC that detailed combat
between orbital and ground targets. Basically, starships that can
enter the atmosphere like the scout can fire on ground and other
targets with their ship weapons, but should be a difficult task at
least. There is a -2 to hit if firing lasers through clouds and a -4
if firing through rain as well. Gunnery skill would be needed to
improve the chance, but the g-craft are small targets and would add to
the difficulty of hitting them. Ship lasers also have a 45 meter
danger area, so make sure you fire at the craft before they get near
the city...

If you hit the craft, don't worry about damage. There won't be
anything left from even a near miss...

>The best bet would be to try and destroy the G-carriers in
>flight. Without them, the Walkers could do very little on they
>own (they are just three, each manned by a single pilot, and if
>the G-carriers are destroyed they would probably try to get out
>of the city, regroup at the landing site and wait for the
>shuttle which will take them back to their orbiting ship.).

Depends on their fanaticism and the amount of initiative you decide to
give them. If the bulk of the merc crew was killed, undoubtedly the
rest would disengage (and try to find out who did this to them).

>If you think that starship weapons won't do, what about trying
>to ram them down? The starship should prove fast (and sturdy)
>enough to close in and knock down the G-carriers. Their on-board
>weaponry wouldn't be enough to actually damage ship's armor.

Think hitting a bee with a baseball bat. Scouts aren't very
maneuverable in an atmosphere; I think the only thing they are capable
of is landing and muddling through a planet's air. Better to take
potshots at the craft with the lasers than risk ramming them with the
scout. While the starship would handle the impacts, if they missed
while close to the ground the impact with the planet could be another
story indeed.

>Mhhh... they way I'm envisioning things, the Mercs think to have
>all the aces in this situation, and won't expect any nasty
>surprise. Mission budget and diplomatic problems on the planet
>will not allow them to do much if they are repelled.=20

You probably need to decide how many casualties the mercs will stand
for before breaking off the mission. This in turn will reflect on
their morale and fanaticism (and how desperate they are for the
money).

>The walkers should be around TL 10, I'd say... what TL would you
>consider for T2300 stuff, anyway?

I have no idea, but TL 10 would be proof against what the PC's are
carrying unless carefully emplaced on vulnerable portions of the
walkers.=20

>The rest of the troops (the ones travelling by G-carriers and
>which will storm the island) is equipped with light personal armors and
>weapons, tactical comm-links, HUDs, Night Goggles and assorted gear.
>I'd say Flex-3 over limbs and Flex-5 on torso, SMGs, grenades
>and light sidearms for the storming party.

Probably has reflec armor built into the suits as well. Lasers are
standard weapons at that TL, so carbines won't be very effective. If
the PC's have enough explosives I would rig deadfalls on any obvious
approach points to where the target is kept.It's going to be messy,
though no matter how the PC's go about it.

Their best bet will be to intercept the carriers with the scout and
drop them with the ship weapons. If they decide to stay and fight they
should lose unless they get creative with the explosives. Without the
required skills I don't know if they could emplace them effectively
without blowing themselves up. Do they have any demolition skills?

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:25:43 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Bases

> Bruce Lewis wrote: 
>I'll leave it to those with broader CT/MT collections to inform us if
>deep-space refuelling stations were ever mentioned before TNE.

The Traveller Adventure (1983, for CT) has, on p 112, the use of a 
"breakout point", which is just such a deep space refuelling station.  
This pre-dates Alien Module 6 (1986) significantly.  I'm sure someone 
will find an even earlier reference soon! 


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:25:33 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

Bruce E J Lewis wrote:
>  
> Crossing rifts in space has always been a problem. Ships that can't jump
> across voids have to circumnavigate a route around any rift in order to
> find their way across it.

That was my understanding of "classic" navigation.  I recall several 
instances (none of which I have checked recently, so I may be remembering 
incorrectly) where published books state "the jump-4 route across the rift 
was not dicovered until year xxx".  There is little need for deepspace 
refuelling, if a J-6 ship can find room for 60% fuel, so can a J-1 ship.  A 
J-1 ship with fuel for 6 jumps can cross the rift quite nicely, thank you, 
albeit more slowly than a J-4 ship.  It may be convenient to assume that 
sensor TL is related to overall TL so that you can determine presence of GG 
at 1-, 2-, 3-, 4-parsecs at TL equal to build J-1, J-2 etc.  This means that 
you cannot safely determine the route across the rift until your sensor TL 
is around 13.  You could try blind luck at earlier TL, but that sounds 
expensive in terms of lost ships!

Based on a recent idea on the TML, I am currently favouring the "jump space 
is a Ancient artifact and a Jump drive is just an interface device".  It is 
then easy (for the referee) to state that you can only jump to and from 
"occupied" hexes (no more deep space depots).  One of the big drawbacks to 
this approach is that you can't use the 2 x J-1 trick in The Traveller 
Adventure to move away from the Aramis Trace and into the interesting 
adventure areas.

For me, the loss of 2 x J-1 is not a problem as I intend to adopt a mixed 
stutterwarp / jump universe, as I find no problem with the T2300 / FF&S 
stutterwarp in a Traveller universe where Jump drives reign supreme <dons 
flame proof TL16 Battle Dress from RoM to protect himself from followers of 
"true" canon).  


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:25:40 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604

Michael D. Peters wrote:

> A Noble steps on his yacht, blonde on his arm. The lights snap on as
> they pass through the access hall from the small boat bay. Temperature,
> humidity, light level, etc. adjusts to the Nobles preferences.

Ship based computers in CT were always like this in my view of the 
universe!  The main complaint I have seen in the past is that the 
computers are so large compared to 1997 <or whenever> PCs.

In my opinion, ship's computers in Traveller are not too large - I used to 
think they were until I went on site to my first chemical plant (I'm a 
chemical engineer).  The size of computers for chemical plant control has 
not reduced significantly in the last 15 years.  Let us look at the latest 
in high-tech control:

A computer with relatively little computing power that took up two large 
rooms ... no, it is not a mainframe but a triple-redundant set of 
controlers (200 dedicated Intel 386 chips) with a Pentium class 
"supervisory" computer and separate Pentium class "engineering" station 
where the control system can be re-programmed.  The actual computer kit 
takes up the space of three large desks, plus (of course) "crew" 
workstations (chair, keyboards, screens).  The controllers were on easily 
accessible racks so that a failed component (spotted by the 2-out-of-3 
voting system) could be replaced without interupting the operation of the 
plant.  (On a ship this would be a maintenace hatch and Star-Trek style 
crawl ways).

The spare controllers are kept in a special cabinet where the printed 
circuit boards are continually checked by a separate diagnostic computer 
so that replacement boards are "guaranteed" working.

The computer room is only part of the equipment needed ... a "switch room" 
contains all of those carefully labelled cables taking control signals 
from the computer out to the valves and bringing measurements back from 
instruments out on the plant.  A typical switch room has two 
double-wardrobe sized units, again with personnel access.

The control system is capable of fully automated start-up or shutdown of 
the plant; due to safety rules there are various "pauses" where the system 
reports "I have finished sequence B, is it OK to start sequence C?".  To 
save money, many of the valves are manually operated, so someone outside 
on the plant has to open up various valves at different stages of the 
process, but on other plants (nuclear power stations) all valves are 
automated.

The supervisory control system is an "expert system' that assesses the 
current operation of the plant and suggests changes to the operating 
parameters.  For some optimisations, these changes to the parameters are 
done automatically while, for others, human confirmation is again 
required.

The above computer system (known as Distributed Control System, or DCS) 
has a mean-time between failures (for the system) of around 12 years, but 
it is possible to add another parallel safety system (and about 50% to 
space) that increases the MTBF to some astronomically high figure.  My 
Pentium-class PC running Win 95 requires a reboot about once a day on 
average.

If anyone has worked on rack-mounted lab-scale control and instrumentation 
systems, they will be able to confirm that ship's computer sizes in 
traveller are not unreasonable.  When it comes to power requirements in 
CT, I may chose to diverge from canon slightly :-)


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:25:48 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CT/MT Re-releases

> Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc.  

The game rules are important to allow you to convert a CT task / ship / 
vehicle into a later system equivalent.  I strongly recomment that they 
are included.

> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>  
> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, 
> and remove some of the material.

do not remove material, please, with the possible exception of artwork 
(as I assume that getting permission to re-publish artwork is not a 
quick task ... lots of those artists will have lost contact or refuse 
permission).

> Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

A dream comes true (well, possibly).  This is such a mind-bogglingly 
wonderful idea that I would hate to see it be put on the back burner 
for too long.  I'm no expert in the field of game publishing, but I 
suspect that sales of this ($200 ??) CD would be limited to Traveller 
fans like me.  There will obviously be a cost vs sales trade-off that 
would be hard to estimate.

As others have suggested, one source of cheap (but potentially 
unreliable - no offence intended) labour is the TML fans ... I for one 
would be happy to proof read a scan + ocr of one (or even five) 
Traveller product(s), edit the tables to line up properly and edit the 
graphics into separate .gif files ready for Acrobat to work it's magic.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica on CD (which I have) does not have any 
significant hypertext links, but that does not stop it being a terrific 
resource due to the search engine.  The Brittanica uses HTML so that a 
Web browser can be used to view the text and graphics ... this seems 
definately the way to go for the Traveller CD as HTML browsers are 
available for Macs, Linux, OS/2, Windows (and probably others!) 

I would therefore recommend:

1) scan / ocr / edit,

2) format as an HTML document (no hypertext links) with .gifs 
   in the right location (near relevant text),

3) organise into a suitable directory structure, for example:

   Classic   <dir>
     Book_1  <dir>
     Book_2  <dir>
     etc
   Challenge <dir>
     01      <dir>
     02      <dir>
     etc
   JTAS      <dir>
     01      <dir>
     02      <dir>
     etc
   
  I'm sure you get the idea.  The \JTAS\01 directory would contain
  one article per html document, plus a bunch of gifs for various
  illustrations that you are allowed to include (not possible for
  all artists due to copyright / difficulty in contacting.)

4) Create a large index (using a commercial indexer) that allows
   you to look up any word and get a list of all documents that
   contain that word ... this is not a difficult task my experts
   at work tell me (we are looking at scanning our document
   archives with OCR + indexing).
   
5) publish the CD-ROM with permission for people to create hypertext
   linked versions of the documents.  As long as I kept my hard
   disk copy of the files in the correct directory structure, I
   could replace the "original" html file with a version with
   hypertext links in it.  The fans who write the hypertext versions
   will know what the directory structure should be so that their
   feature-enhanced documents will work properly with other docs
   enhanced by a different fan.

This approach means that production of the CD is not reliant on TMLers 
meeting schedules to create hyperlinked versions.  It also means that 
the most manhour intensive task (hypertext links) is not included in 
the original CD, reducing costs significantly but allowing relatively 
easy extention of the work by computer literate Traveller fans and 
published on Web sites around the world.  I could choose my favorite 
"enhanced" version of each document, replace references to "this 
picture note included" with a suitable .gif of my own creation (or 
downloded from the web sites from artistic TMLers).


Now, where do I send my money for a pre-order copy? :-)

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:25:35 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More fuel related discussion

Nick Munn wrote:

> O2 and H2O(g) have similar heat capacities, so if you cool the whole 
> lot indiscriminately it may take more like 250 MJ / m^3 LH2.  If you 
> have to cool it 400K that's still only 10% of the cost of 
> electrolysis.

Your analysis is not complete, as it does not account for the fact that 
heat capacity is not constant.  I can assure you that from basic 
principles that if you heat up the water until it decomposes and then 
cool it down (cunnily preventing the spontaneous re-combustion likly at 
temperatures above 800K) the net heat input will be similar to the heat 
of formation of water ... that is essentially how heat of formatiuon 
is defined (i.e. take H2 and O2 at 300 K, heat up to any temperature you 
want and make them react, possibly with the assistance of a catalyst, 
then recover the heat until the H2O is at 300 K ... the overall energy 
change is the heat of formation of water and is not affected by the 
intermediate temperatures used).

The heat of formation should be very similar to the energy needed to 
split water using electrolysis (as the energy input should be equal to 
the heat of formation).

> I've been quoting where necessary from _Physical Chemistry_, P.W.
> Atkins, OUP, 3rd edition (4th is similar).  All university level
> general physical chemistry and molecular physics textbooks will have
> a treatment of thermodynamics.

That's the text I used at Uni too!

Simon - Chemical Engineer (its my job!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:00:32 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Droyne Homeworld

From aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)

> Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!
> Spoiler Warning!!!!!!!!

<snip>

>_Secret of the Anchients_ puts the droyne homeworld in <censored>

Well, I'm going to check the adventure tonight, but I think this is a
misreading.  I'll tell more tomorrow.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:09:36 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: AI Ships and Darrians

Hi there

Where did the idea that the Darrians were at TL 17+ before they
torched themselves?  I seem to remember that Darrian was rated at TL
16 because of the large number of TL 16 relics from the Maghiz; the
actual manufacturing capabilities were more liek TL 12, with eth TL 16
artifacts kept operating on spare parts, luck, and ingenuity.  Thus
pre-Maghiz Darrian was at TL 16, and the startrigger (aka a
space-science cock-up to end all!) was TL 16.

>For some *great* inspiration about AI ships, I *very* highly 
>recommend most of the Ian M Banks 'Culture' novels. 

If you want a book that reads like a Traveller adventure, right down
to a group of military veteran PCs with Soc from about 3 to about 12,
then try Iain M. Banks, Against a Dask Background.  Some great tech
ideas too: electronic foam, blood fealty, overhang houses, crystal
virus, smart monowheel vehicles, and the Lazy Gun.

Thanks

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:14:17 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update: RPG Items (Traveller, Space 1889, AD&D)

Below is the latest update.

Rules:   Update 7/31/97  -  07:00          

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              Ex  $ 5.00

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $10.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $ 7.00 ebevans@pop.fas.harvard.edu
        $ 6.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        $ 6.00 stackmc@aol.com

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $20.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $25.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $22.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $22.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $15.00 cgriffen@cisco.com

Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  $ 5.00
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  $ 5.00
Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        $75.00 fkiesche@aol.com
        $70.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $65.00 kalin@bambam.swlink.net
        $60.00 bsanders@amghome.com

AD&D Related Items                                Co     Bid
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        $ 6.00 tlsiew@acsu.buffalo.edu

TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 3.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 3.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 3.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $ 3.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $ 6.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $ 5.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 5.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 3.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $10.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                       
        $ 5.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $ 3.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $ 3.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $ 3.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1997 12:57:18 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Hi there
     
Where did the idea that the Darrians were at TL 17+ before they 
torched themselves?  I seem to remember that Darrian was rated at TL 
16 because of the large number of TL 16 relics from the Maghiz; the 
actual manufacturing capabilities were more liek TL 12, with eth TL 16 
artifacts kept operating on spare parts, luck, and ingenuity.  Thus 
pre-Maghiz Darrian was at TL 16, and the startrigger (aka a 
space-science cock-up to end all!) was TL 16.
     You may well be right, it's a while since I read this stuff.
     
     Boring rules stuff:  Aren't computers at TL16 semi-sentient and 
     sentient by TL17?  (MT Ref's Manual, I think.)  Since you can 
     design *experimental* stuff one TL above your own (ship design 
     section in Ref's Manual) ... there may be some sentient TL17 
     computers left lying around in relic ships.
     
     My true feelings: even if the canon lot find holes in the above, 
     I find it an interesting idea.  Players stumble into a ship with 
     sentient computer that's a relic from Darrian's past.  Cue: 
     interesting personality for the computer, complete with funny 
     voice, etc.  In fact, this may well happen to my players in a 
     week.  I just need to decide on the right funny accent, 
     personality and name for the computer - any ideas out there?
     
>For some *great* inspiration about AI ships, I *very* highly 
>recommend most of the Ian M Banks 'Culture' novels.
     
If you want a book that reads like a Traveller adventure, right down 
to a group of military veteran PCs with Soc from about 3 to about 12, 
then try Iain M. Banks, Against a Dask Background.  Some great tech 
ideas too: electronic foam, blood fealty, overhang houses, crystal 
virus, smart monowheel vehicles, and the Lazy Gun.
     I agree with you completely.  It's a great read for GM inspiration (if 
     a little distopian).  Though I've enjoyed some of his other books 
     more.
     
Thanks
     
Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 11:58:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Fencing Styles

I've been giving some thought to the Code of Dueling for the Nobles in my Mileu
0 campaign and I've pretty much decided the weapon of choice will be a sword.
Why?  Because it would require skill, any idiot can point a pistol and pull a
trigger.  But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then it's
inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become important.
Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue as to
where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a Spanish
Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth Century.
Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like some
pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that would be
applicable.

Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1630
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1631



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: THUDDD 5 Results!!!
Re: TL10 Ships
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: Ship Noises
Re: Pocket Empire Queries
Re: Droyne Homeworld
Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle
Re: Traveller CD and page count
Re: Ship Noise
Re: TL10 Ships
Re: Droyne Homeworld
Vilani Names
Roswell Aliens
Idea (skills related)
Apologies
Re: Traveller CD
Re:  Fencing Styles
Re: Fuel Discussion
Starship Noises
Re: More fuel related discussion
Re: >Re: CD's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:06:54 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 5 Results!!!

	So there is life withut honking big spinal mounts after all...:)

Craig Berry wrote IC:

>
>[drum roll, fanfare]
>
>Famille Spofulam Yards, with the 'Imelda' class yacht!
>
>[loud applause, turning to a standing ovation]
>
>We of the ISBA are thrilled to present this trophy to Famille Spofulam
>Yards; may their continued excellence shine as a beacon for all Imperial
>shipbuilders!
>
>[he proffers the iridium-plated near-c rock, on a tasteful voorwood
>mounting]

/IC

	Tastefully dressed in a well-cut formal tunic, Hengabar Spofulam
rises and walks briskly to the podium:

	"Fellow Citizens of the Imperium, all I can say is thanks.  Yacht
design has always had a spot near to Famille Spofulam's corporate heart; we
cut our teeth so to speak on the Caligula.  So, to be honoured thusly by
our colleagues is doubly heartwarming.  I won't say much more, as I'm sure
you're all eager for the real festivities to start, but I must also salute
our glorious Emperor Cleon, without whose visionary genius our collective
success would never of occurred, and without whom darkness would still
reign!  Citizens, Nobles, colleagues, three cheers for the Emperor!

<raises trophy overhead in one hand and exits stage left>

/OOC

	Thanks, people!

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:25:57 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: TL10 Ships

Eric Jackson wrote:

>
>I have just started to work with the starship construction system in T4.
>I'm fairly new to this list so forgive me if this has been brought up
>before.
>
>I want to design a lower tech (TL-10) Survey vessel. I was thinking of
>something along the lines of a 200 ton ship with 2G acceleration. Looking
>on the chart I see fuel requirements are 14.3 tons per 20 hours. How long
>is an average flight?


	Depends entirely on how far away the destination is :).  Actually,
it sounds like our first design efforts were remarkably similar; the first
thing I tried to desing using SSDS (which I prefer to QSDS) was a TL-9
fusion rocket propelled 800 td lab ship.  I had visions of it being used
for expeditions to the Oort cloud...


>
>I did some calculations and found it will take about 12 hours for the ship
>to reach jump distance on a size class A world. How close do ships arrive
>to the destination when they leave jump? The first adventure in the
>Anomalies collection requires the players to putter about in system for at
>least 200 hours, that would require 143 tons of fuel just for the HEPlaR
>drive!
>
>I downloaded the QSDS v1.5 from the web, and its much worse! According to
>it the same HEPlaR drive requires 5 tons of fuel per hour. That would
>require 1,000 tons of fuel for the first adventure in anomalies.
>
>Am I missing something obvious, or are HEPlaR drive just worthless?


	Basically, no.  Apparently HEPlaR drives are actually
unrealistically fuel-efficient, according to those in the know on the list.
T-plates are real science-fictiony reactionless drives, which means that
they don't generate thrust by expelling reaction mass; they simply generate
thrust by the reality-bending effect of collective handwaving :).  Since
HEPlaR drives generate thrust by accelerating nuke-damped fusing hydrogen
(aka reaction mass) up to relativistic speeds and spraying it out the back
and ghod have mercy upon anyone standing behind the ship, they are
obviously more limited in that they have to lug a lot of it around in order
to get anywhere.

	HEPlaR ships wouldn't be under constant acceleration unless they
had honking great big fuel tanks.  What they would do is boost at very high
G's for a shortish period of time, and then coast to the turnaround point,
turn around, and decelerate.  While the initial acceleration would be high,
the average velocity would be low and travel times longer because only a
brief part of the trip would be spent boosting.

	A T-plate ship would boost at lower G's, but keep it up for much
longer; all the way to the half-way mark, at which point they'd just
turnaround and begin deceleration.  So, although the acceleration is low,
the average velocity is higher and travel time is shorter because the ship
is accelerating up to the halfway point.

	I actually kinda like the low-tech Fusion and HEPlaR drives,
personally; they just add more constraints to design around.  While at
TL-12 you can do some pretty high-performance designs, at TL-9 or 10 you
have to try harder, and it's more fun that way.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 1997 22:36 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

How about a compromise?

* Scan in images of all the material,
  one folder per set,
     one sub-folder per book.

* Provide a searchable ASCII master index in the root directory.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:28:55 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

And don't figure the little scurrying sounds from the little somethings
living in the hold, walls, and between the decks...


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:46:48 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empire Queries

At 09:41 31/07/97 +0100, Andy Lilly wrote:
>Hi Bruce,
>
>Re: Two more minor observations from Pocket Empires...
>
>No Table. I've not had a chance to check the book, not having it here at
>work, but the original text submitted was:
>
>>SHIP HOMEWORLD
>>
>>Roll 1D and apply the following DMs to determine where the ship is from.
>>
>>System has a starport of class: A or B, DM +1; E, DM +2.
>>System is Jump-2 from all other worlds, DM +1.
>>System is Jump-3 (or greater) from all other worlds, DM +3.
>>
>>************
>>On a result of 1-4, the ship is from the local system. On a result of 5-6
>it >is a visitor from another system.
>>************
>>
>>///BEGIN EXAMPLE
>>
>>For the Khuir military escort encounter, we roll 1D for 3, +1 for the class
>B >starport. The result of 4 indicates that the ship is from Khuir itself.
>>
>>///END EXAMPLE
>

	Thanks Andy. Much of what you state IS missing from Pocket Empires! The
three lines of DM's above and the result line have not been included in PE.
Only the line "Roll 1D..." and the example was included. Looks like it was
edited out to make all the paragraphs fit onto that page okay!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at...http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:58:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Droyne Homeworld

- -> _Secret of the Anchients_ puts the droyne homeworld in Yaskodray's pocket
- -> universe; he pinched it off AROUND the droyne homesystem. Said system was
- -> in the Spinward Marches. Unfortunately, I cannot give more detail, as I
- -> don't have my own copy of that adventure (yet)
WRONG (sorry to say)...
SoA states that Yaskodray pinced off three worlds one of which is 
remarkably SIMILAR to the Droyne homeworld... Hoiwever both are not 
the same!
MM said on the list that in Shionty belt there exists yet another 
Pocket Universe (YAPU), which in turn contains the Droyne homeworld. 
 




Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:00:57 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FWD: Special offer for Travelle

- -> Volker,
- -> 
- -> > BTW.: Did you ever hear Leonard Nimoy's Bilbo-Baggins-Song (and see 
- -> > the video) ? This is the stuff of legends (in Humorland, anyway)
- -> 
- -> This is the stuff of *nightmares*.
Oh so true...
When i saw this "video" on BBC, in couldn't stop laugh-crying the 
rest of the day! I just couldn't decide wheather it was funny or sad! 
It still makes my eyes water justr to think about it
 


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:08:43 +1200 (NZST)
From: Idiot/Savant <idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk said:
> Pages of Traveller material in different eras divided by publisher:
>
>      GDW       DGP       Other           Total
> CT   3086      142       2527      5755       (+1737 pages of novels)

 There were Classic Traveller novels?

 Where?

- --
Idiot/Savant			idiot@sans.vuw.ac.nz
Betray your friends; Crush your enemies; 
Control the world; Drink some coffee

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 01:01:40 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship Noise

>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:39:25 -0800
>From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
>Subject: Ship Noise

>>Here are my ideas :
>>Air flowing inside life supported zones
>>Little buzz from the G-compensators

>Call it more of a humm

>>Maybe some vibrations coming from Fusion plant

>I don't think so... maybe from the fuel system

>>Surely some (noisy) vibrations coming from heplar when activated

>RUMBLE RUMBLE RUMBLE when working.

>>Maybe something coming from the jump grid while in J-space

>I generally use a soft snaping/crackling/static noise.

>and you forgot one: A hum from the lights.

>William F. Hostman		
><Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

GSbAG advertisng blerb:
"At 0.01c the loudest noise you'll hear is the ticking of the clock"
(sorry couldn't resist it)

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 01:01:34 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: TL10 Ships

>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:29:00 -0700
>From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
>Subject: TL10 Ships

>I have just started to work with the starship construction system in T4.
>I'm fairly new to this list so forgive me if this has been brought up
>before.

>I want to design a lower tech (TL-10) Survey vessel. I was thinking of
>something along the lines of a 200 ton ship with 2G acceleration. Looking
>on the chart I see fuel requirements are 14.3 tons per 20 hours. How long
>is an average flight? 

[snip]

>Am I missing something obvious, or are HEPlaR drive just worthless?

The trick is you don't run the drive full time, just build up a significant
velocity and coast. Run your HEPlaR drive for an hour or two and then
switch it off. The great advantage of Thruster is that you can run your
drive full time.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 01:01:47 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Droyne Homeworld

>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:39:30 -0800
>From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
>Subject: Droyne Homeworld

>_Secret of the Anchients_ puts the droyne homeworld in Yaskodray's pocket
>universe; he pinched it off AROUND the droyne homesystem. Said system was
>in the Spinward Marches. Unfortunately, I cannot give more detail, as I
>don't have my own copy of that adventure (yet)

Sorry, it's not. Adventure 12 states that one of the worlds in the pocket
universe is inhabited by Droyne (ancient variant, i.e. no mystic aspect)
and has been seeded many species of plants and animals from Eskayloyt. In
an E-mail to the TML Marc Millar stated in an off-hand manner that Shinothy
was the Droyne homeworld and that it was destroyed when Yaskoydray pinched
off the pocket universe. For myself personally, I'd much rather have
Eskayloyt still around somewhere intact (would make for one epic adventure
to find it); but as far as the canon evidence goes, Shinothy was the Droyne
Homeworld and it was destroyed when Yaskoydray created his pocket universe
(incidentally this was after the Final War had ended, Grandfather isn't at
all sentimental apparently).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:52:02 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Vilani Names

> At last someone has realized that the Vilani personal name Eneri is
> pronounced like a British Henry!
> I wonder what other Vilani names we can come up with?
>
> Marc

How about Mork Mhillair? Laren Weisaminn? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:57:44 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Roswell Aliens

So, lets sum up: 100% of Americans have been kidnapped by UFOs
The FBI has an X-Files branch
And their government has kept this covered up?

Obviously, I have underestimated the US government!

Maybe we really do have dinosaurs, have found Zinj, regularly defeat aliens
with Macintosh viruses, and computers can really be caused to blow up by
typing "why" (BLAM!)

oh, poop!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:47:30 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Idea (skills related)

Here is an idea that has been bouncing around in my head for a while.
Instead of tying skills to a given either/or stat, why not provide secondary
stats? They are the average of the two stats, round up. You do not have to
name them, I just did it to give a feel for the particular comboes.
St=Strength, De=Dexterity, En=Endurance, In=Intelligence, Ed=Education,
So=Social
NEW STATS
Fitness (StEn)
Agility (StDe)
Presence  (StSo)
Reflexes  (DeIn)
Grace  (DeSo)
Willpower  (EnIn)
Experience  (InEd)
Wit  (InSo)
Style  (EdSo)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:24:11 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Apologies

I'd like to apologize to the list for sending my message to the list in
MIME format...I just started using Outlook Express, and I forgot to change
the setting from HTML to Plain Text.

Bad Andy...bad, bad Andy...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:46:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> Subject: Re: Traveller CDs
> 
> On 07/30/97 at 10:04 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
> >Scanning and OCR of the Traveller text will have to be done carefully. My
> >early experiments indicated that "Aslan" sometimes comes through as
> >"Asian" and "Vland" sometimes as "Viand". 
> 
> Hey, that's what spell checkers are for.  Don't you already have Aslan,
> Vland, Zhodani, Solimani, et. al. in your user dictionary? ;->

Exactamundo. To increase the "hit rate" of OCR, they do the same thing
that the (ill-fated) Newton did - they do a dictionary lookup on all words
to make sure that every word is OCR'ed into a real word... which kinda
sucks if you're OCR'ing words that aren't in the dictionary. Solution:
add them to the dictionary... or, turn off dictionary lookup (if that's an
option) and watch everything turn to greek.

BTW, this may sound silly, but has anybody suggested that Marc pick up
the phone and call someone at TSR and ask them how they did it? I mean,
this isn't a new, bleeding edge project. It's been done, in the same 
industry. Finding someone who has done it before would make life a lot
easier. Marc or Loren must know _somebody_ at TSR after all these years...

Also, 10 minutes per page for scanning is silly. What you do is cut the spine
out of the book and feed it through a scanner with a sheet feeder. You
could probably do an entire Alien module in 20 minutes or less. Of course,
you destroy the poor thing in the process... *sniff*

Finally, someone asked why JPEG was a bad idea. JPEG is a "lossy" format -
you put 200Kb of information in, the JPEG compression engine gives you
100Kb of information out. In that process a lot of information isn't just
compressed - it's thrown out! Take a small bitmap of black text on a white
background and convert it to JPEG, then view it, maybe blow it up by
200%. It looks awful. Illegible actually. TIFF, GIF, PNG, BMP, heck, plain raw
bits, anything is better for digitized text than JPEG.

My 2 cents: scan everything, OCR it, then send it out to a bunck of voluteers
to edit. Collect it back up, slap it on a CD, sell it. I'm sure that there
would be enough volunteers that you could edit everything into a decent state
in a few months, for nothing more than a free copy of the final product and
their names in the credits. I'm not saying it would be a fast project, but
slow and cheap is sometimes better than fast and expensive.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:44:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re:  Fencing Styles

>Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 11:58:00 GMT
>From: s.johnson107@genie.com
>Subject: Fencing Styles

>I've been giving some thought to the Code of Dueling for the Nobles in my 
Mileu
>0 campaign and I've pretty much decided the weapon of choice will be a 
sword.
>Why?  Because it would require skill, any idiot can point a pistol and pull 
a
>trigger.  But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then 
it's
>inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become important.
>Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue as 
to
>where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a Spanish
>Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth 
Century.
>Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like some
>pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that would 
be
>applicable.

Ah, Code Duello!
I like the idea of this becoming a theme for Nobles in Traveller, adds a bit 
of 'style' to it.  Also interests me because I am a student of that 
dicipline.  I belong to a historical re-enactment group (Society for 
Creative Anachronism, ever hear of it?).  Basicaly I belong to a houshold of 
fencers called the 'Black Masque', so I understand some of the basic stuff. 
 I have been given the honor of puting up the Household Webpage @ 
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/masque/ . Not too much there yet, but we hope 
to post more links and information.  Of course you could always email my 
Maistro, Herre Wulfe van der Russ(address is on page).  He loves talking 
about the sword. :-)

I can tell you that there are many styles of fencing today, and in the next 
2500 years or so I would believe there would be thousands more.  But the 
basic styles you mentioned are correct:

French, the basic stuff you see on TV and movies, with the off-hand up for 
balance

English, the off-hand is on the hip.

Italian, a more forceful style, the arm is more exteneded, developed to 
pierce armor.  As a matter of fact the style sometimes tied the sword to the 
forearm with a 'martingale', little more than a leather strap.

Spanish, very elegant, very precice and mathematical.  From what I 
understand it involves moving in a criss-crossing octogonal pattern.  I 
would assume somebody got hold of the Moorish mathematics and sciences and 
developed a geometric approach to fighting.

Florintine is using two weapons at once.

Not only this,  but you have styles depending on the type of blade, for 
example the sabre uses cutting and slashing moves, while the foil and epee 
rely on thrusts.

Thats just some very basic concepts, and it may not be entirely correct. 
 I've been 'playing' for 5 years, but I haven't realy 'studied' the art. :-)

I believe that in the future, as cultures on our world grow closer, there 
will be fusion styles.  It is already begining now.  I have seen Iaido and 
Kendo moves used in fencing styles (mostly for parries).  Who knows, maybe 
someone would develop a technique in which psionics are used to sense where 
bullets are flying and give the swordmaster ability to deflect them? :-)

(The Commander Ducks for cover)

Commander X 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:56:20 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Discussion

Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
reaction are?

Would it be a lighter Helium isotope? (ie 2 He 2)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:52:36 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Starship Noises

Heres my A$0.02:

- -plumbing:  some starships (the 'budget' models) are notorious for having
loud, unreliable or just plain crappy (no pun intended) plumbing.  After
all, what Free Trader campaign could be complete without the simultaneous
G-compensator failure and explosing latrine scenario...fun for the whole
party.

Task:		fixing a faulty latrine in zero gravity
		Formidable (Fateful) - Dexterity, Mechanical

- -creaking and groaning of the structure as it expands or contracts with
temperature changes.  

- -and finally, screeching and yowling as the ships cats tough it out in the
corridor outside your stateroom.


Have Fun,




Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:21:33 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: More fuel related discussion

Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>:

> Nick Munn wrote:
> 
> > O2 and H2O(g) have similar heat capacities, so if you cool the whole 
> > lot indiscriminately it may take more like 250 MJ / m^3 LH2.  If you 
> > have to cool it 400K that's still only 10% of the cost of 
> > electrolysis.
> 
> Your analysis is not complete, as it does not account for the fact that 
> heat capacity is not constant.

As I said, since I didn't have any good data for the temperature 
dependence of C_p,m of H2O(g) I had to use the approximate figures.
The constant values aren't *that* bad for C_P, surely?  (Factor of 2 
error, perhaps 3, would be my guess at an upper bound.]

> I can assure you that from basic 
> principles that if you heat up the water until it decomposes and then 
> cool it down (cunnily preventing the spontaneous re-combustion likly at 
> temperatures above 800K) the net heat input will be similar to the heat 
> of formation of water ... that is essentially how heat of formatiuon 
> is defined (i.e. take H2 and O2 at 300 K, heat up to any temperature you 
> want and make them react, possibly with the assistance of a catalyst, 
> then recover the heat until the H2O is at 300 K ... the overall energy 
> change is the heat of formation of water and is not affected by the 
> intermediate temperatures used).

Thank you, I'll try to remember that next time I lecture any 
thermodynamics.

> The heat of formation should be very similar to the energy needed to 
> split water using electrolysis (as the energy input should be equal to 
> the heat of formation).

Yes, but the question of heat loss, extra work required for 
compression, non-reversibilty of processes means that they won't be 
the same, and the question I was answering was "How much extra work 
might it take to thermally decompose water?"

> > I've been quoting where necessary from _Physical Chemistry_, P.W.
> > Atkins, OUP, 3rd edition (4th is similar).  All university level
> > general physical chemistry and molecular physics textbooks will have
> > a treatment of thermodynamics.
> 
> That's the text I used at Uni too!

Hateful, isn't it?  One student thought our lecturer *was* Atkins 
because he made so much use of the book...

> Simon - Chemical Engineer (its my job!)

Nick - Scientist (ditto!)

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:51:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: >Re: CD's

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, David Scott wrote:
 
> Having scanned some stuff you still need to check it by eye for errors 
> and formatting. It took me 5 (lunch) hours to do one small black book 
> even then it still has some glitches. Tables are a real pain (spc or tab 
> or whatever).

There is a thoroughly neato-mosquito little utility for the Mac called
Columnbo, which will let you load a text file, a table, for instance, and
then set where you want column breaks, by adjusting little sliders at the
top. Then it will save the results as a tab delimited text file.

I used it to instantly chop up the online sector files into tab-delimited
ones to stuff into a databse or Excel, as well as other similar taks, like
recreating tables.

The version I have, unfortunately, is limted to 32k chunks, because of the
standard toolbox TextEdit routine.

It's $15 shareware, available in most fine Mac online archives. I've never
run across a wintel version of this program or even something similar...if
anyone knows of one, please let me know, because I've had projects at work
that have taken a couple days longer than necessary because I needed to
drag the file home to my Mac to get it processed properly.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1631
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1632



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fencing Styles
RE: JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Alternate Marine Ranks
Re: Traveller CD and page count
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Tactical Scenario
Fencing Styles
Fuel discussion
re: TL-10 ships
CD-Rom
Re: Is t4 Traveller?
Re: TL10 Ships
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Fuel discussion
Re: Imperial Exemption Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:00:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

On Thu, 31 Jul 97 11:58:00 GMT, Stephen wrote:

>I've been giving some thought to the Code of Dueling for the Nobles in my Mileu
>0 campaign and I've pretty much decided the weapon of choice will be a sword.
>Why?  Because it would require skill, any idiot can point a pistol and pull a
>trigger.  But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then it's
>inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become important.
>Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue as to
>where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a Spanish
>Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth Century.
>Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like some
>pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that would be
>applicable.
>
>Stephen

        Dueling with a pistol is tougher than you might think.  Assuming
that traditional rules still apply (dueling with SMG's would sort of defeat
the purpose), each duellist is given a weapon with a single shot.  They
stand back-to-back, walk ten (or so) paces, turn and fire.  Essentially the
duelist is offered two choices- he can turn and fire a snapshot, hoping he
hits and incapacitates his opponent, or else he can take his time, aim
carefully, and pray the other guy's shot doesn't kill him first.  If a man
fires and misses, he has to literally stand there and wait for his opponent
to take his shot.  Talk about nerve-wracking.  If both parties miss, they
reload and try again.
        As dueling with swords became formalized over the course of the
Renaissance, a wide variety of weapons and styles were employed against one
another.  The major styles were:

French:  This is the classic fencing style, surviving today in sport
fencing.  Each opponent fights with a single sword.  Emphasis was placed on
targeting the opponent's torso, because frankly it gave the most likely odds
for a fatal or incapacitating hit.

Florentine:  The Italians used the same fencing style as the French, but
went one better- their duelists fought with weapons in both hands.  Target
areas are the same as the French, but some greater emphasis was also placed
on targeting the opponent's arms.  This became the preeminent style after a
time, because two weapons are almost always better than one, if the duelist
has enough dexterity.  Over time, Florentine spawned a wide vareity of
combinations:  sword and dagger, sword and sword, sword and cloak (my
favorite), and sometimes sword and dueling glove, which was a glove fitted
with chain mail on the back and palm, and allowed for catching or blocking
an opponent's weapon.

Spanish:  Very scary style.  The opponents fight with their weapons held at
shoulder-height, arms slightly bent and elbows facing away from each other.
The only acceptable targets are the head and neck.  Nearly always fought
with two swords per duelist.  It's nerve-wracking even to SPAR with this style.

Elizabethan:  Quite the opposite of Spanish, Elizabethan-style fencers fight
from a crouch, shoulders hunched, and crab-walk around one another.
Acceptable targets are the torso, arms, and legs.  To make matters worse,
Elizabethan is also fought with two weapons per opponent, usually dagger and
sword or sword and sword.  Easily the most physically demanding of the
styles, requiring coordination, excellent balance, and high dexterity, not
to mention calves and thighs of solid steel!

        In addition to this, there were several schools of dueling in Europe
that revolved around fighting with such incongrous weapons as two-handed
swords and polearms.  A duel with two-handed swords would be a real dance,
because both opponents have to keep the weapons in motion- a block
immediately turns into an attack, and back again, until someone finally
slips up.

        These at least are the major European styles, as they were taught to
me.  Hope this is of some help to you.

Mike Lee

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:57:47 -0400
From: "Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com>
Subject: RE: JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)

Here is information from my scanning a full-page of text.  This is 8.5"
x 11" format scanned at 300 dpi.

This was a combination of an article from Marc Miller on milk bottles
and the tail end of another article from Dragon Magazine, scanned
without permission.

Bytes		Format
1,056,062	MilkBottle-RLE-1-bit.bmp
1,056,062	MilkBottle-1-bit.bmp
  292,997	MilkBottle-1-bit.gif
1,881,298	MilkBottle-75-Quality-8-bit.jpg
1,408,244	MilkBottle-50-Quality-8-bit.jpg
  591,509	MilkBottle-RLE-1-bit.pcx
  591,509	MilkBottle-1-bit.pcx
  306,175	MilkBottle-8-bit.png
8,395,218	MilkBottle-8-bit.tga
  876,808	MilkBottle-RLE-8-bit.tga
  250,536	MilkBottle-CCITT-Group-3-1-bit.tif
1,050,270	MilkBottle-1-bit.tif
  127,568	MilkBottle-CCITT-Group-4-1-bit.tif
    8,471	MilkBottle.txt
   26,624	MilkBottle.doc
    8,326	MilkBottle.html
   11,279	MilkBottle.rtf

Notes:  .doc is Word 97 document formatted to match (closely) the
original image.
The .html file is smaller than .txt file because some formatting was
performed (multiple spaces removed; carriage returns removed within
paragraphs; etc.).

This took about an hour to do all of it (scan it, save in different
formats, OCR the .TIF file, perform simple editing in OCR software,
export to .TXT file, import into Word 97, format it there, save as HTML
file).

Personally, I would like to see a format such as HTML used since it is
text based, it would be easier to index than an image format or PDF
format.  RTF format might be an alternative as many word processors can
read it.

- - David

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Nicolas LEJEUNE [SMTP:nlejeune@atos-group.com]
>Sent:	Thursday, July 31, 1997 4:19 AM
>To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject:	JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)
>
><snip> 
>
>If someone could scan a single Traveller page and convert it into JPEG and
>GIF and then put it onto a WEB or FTP server it would be great. So we could
>try to have a better opinion.
>
>-----------
>Nicolas LEJEUNE
>   Engineer, Paris, France
>   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
>   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:35:07 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

At 12:17 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Glenn wrote:

>> anyone using real subs?  And if we're going to have "Sub-"s shouldn't we
>> have "Supra-"s or "Over-"s?  At best, Sub-Lt. sounds like a temporary
>
>Like Obersturmfuehrer?  The Third Reich had all sorts of crazy rank
>names.  So did the USSR until major reforms in the middle of WWII
>brought back the czarist insignia and titles ("Colonel General" has
>always been one of my favorites).

The Waffen-SS ranks work well for Sword World baddies.. "I am Storm-Leader
Angussun, and you will answer my questions.."  If I ever find my sourcebook
on WWII German uniforms and decorations, I'll do up the entire SW military.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:31:11 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Marine Ranks

At 06:15 PM 7/30/97 BST-1, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970728142335.2d073408@mail.hooked.net>
>
>Douglas,
>
>> I'm trying to get away from the rank of Captain in the Marines.  Since the
>> main role of the Imperial Marine Force is to serve as shipboard troops, why
>> have a rank that mirrors a far more senior Naval rank?
>
>You have the same problem with Lieutenants. I suggest we stick with the old 
>ranks, but prefix Lt and Capt with 'Force'.

But by having rank O-1 through O-3 identical to the Navy ranks, with the
exception of the prefix "Force", you eliminate all confusion.  In the
modern military, you call a Lieutenant Colonel "colonel" and anything with
stars "General".. Having a Marine O-3 asa Force Lieutenant, and called
"Skipper" by his troops would prevent such oddities as having two (or more)
people aboard a ship who can be adressed as Captain.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:41:33 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

- -> > Pages of Traveller material in different eras divided by publisher:
- -> >
- -> >      GDW       DGP       Other           Total
- -> > CT   3086      142       2527      5755       (+1737 pages of novels)
- -> 
- ->  There were Classic Traveller novels?
- -> 
- ->  Where?
I never heard of them either! Who has got this info? Marc?

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:44:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

	Greetings!

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:

> I've been giving some thought to the Code of Dueling for the Nobles in my Mileu
> 0 campaign and I've pretty much decided the weapon of choice will be a sword.
> Why?  Because it would require skill, any idiot can point a pistol and pull a
> trigger.  But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then it's
> inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become important.
> Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue as to
> where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a Spanish
> Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth Century.
> Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like some
> pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that would be
> applicable.

	Remember, in the 18th century, swords were popular on the
Continent for settling disputes, but pistols were the rule-of-thumb here
in the US.  I guess we started that love affair with guns early.

	The Spanish and Italian schools were famous early on, although the
Spanish school mutated into the Destreza system, which did not find a lot
of popularity abroad.  France and Italy had good reputations by the
17th-18th centuries.  Italians had the rep of being sneaky and crafty.

	Renaisance Swordsmanship by John Clement is a new and pretty good
book.  They are some GREAT books on the history of dueling, but the ones I
have are out of print.

	Clements book is $25 and can be ordered at 1-800-392-2400.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:31:15
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

Thanks to everyone who sent me answers on my Tactical Scenario
questions. I read the digest, so my answers will be in "digest"
form too.

Any additional insight (especially from people with military
experience, be it Real or Traveller) would be valuable, thank
you.

On with the thread, now:
 
...........
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:


>>Is it possible, for example, to use the starship Laser against
>>the G-Carriers?=20
>Definitely. The G-carriers may be small and agile, but you can't outrun
>or dodge a laser pulse - at planetary combat ranges lasers (for all
>pracitcal purposes) never miss. Atmospheric effects might reduce the laser's
>effective range to a few tens of km, though. And the G-carriers/troops
>can fire back; a scoutship's hull isn't particularly tough. THere's also the
>risk of the merc's ship deciding to become involved if it detects the PC's
>ship. Pretty tough scenario.
Well, I don't know what the PC will do in the end, but from what
I'm gathering from you and the other TMLers the starship will be
a real asset. A weapon which automatically hits at "few tens of
km" would be very powerful.
As I said before, the Merc ship will not be allowed to interfere
due to limitations imposed by the Imperium/Zhodani peace treaty
for the system.
In order to give a chance to my players, I decided that the
Mercs would be a little overconfident, and after the initial
sensor checks and a couple high altitude recon flights by the
shuttles they will decide that the city does not possess high TL
resources. This is in fact true, and matches the data supplied
by the Mercs patron.
I'd say that the PCs starship will escape these cursory checks,
being under the sea level with engines and other systems off.
The only source of electrical power in the city is the small
generator used by the ex-Scout living there, and it will be
(correctly) identified as a non-threatening civilian unit. The
PCs have an Air-Raft, but it is currently parked in a city
building, with all systems turned off.

...........
On Wed, 30 Jul 97 eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:


>Do you really want to run this as a combat?  Are do you just think your
>players will take the military tack?
I don't know what the players will decide to do. Their main goal
is getting the hostage away alive. The "pull" in their case is
ownership of the scout... the Patron hinted that he could gave
it to them if they succeed.
I have no idea of what they will end up with. For now they don't
even suspect about Mercs presence in the system, and are just
visiting the city and trying to gather info.

>I ask, because if *I* were one of the players, I'd try to talk the local
>Chief into letting the PC's take the prisoner out of the city..maybe to
>another city, or just out of town. I'd explain that the Mercs wouldn't have
>a reason to be threatening the city if the prisoner was gone, and I could
>make him gone.  
Thank you for your view on the situation. Yes, they could just
do it, in fact. I'll have to think this over... but see below
for a more detailed analysis of the situation.

>It might not work, but then again it just might and if it
>did you could have a "Mercs chase the PC's as the PC's try to get back to
>their ship and off planet" scenerio.  
Note that the Mercenaries can't do much about the players' ship
if they decide to just run away. The ship is less than a Km.
from the coast, and it can be easily reached by putting on vacc
suits and going down with the air raft. The PCs could get inside
without even alerting the Mercs. The ship has refueled at the
gas giant and it's ready to jump back to Imperial Space.  The
main threat would be from the orbiting Merc ship...

OTOH, I dont' think that the local ruler would like this idea.
He could think it's safer to just hand the hostage to the
attackers... he can't be sure that they wouldn't destroy the
city as revenge (as I said before, the Mercs won't do it, but he
can't possibly know, and he *would*, if he were in their shoes).
From the Ruler point of view, the choices are the following: 
a) Hand out the hostage, losing face with his people, but saving
   the city.
b) Give the hostage to the PCs, risking revenge from the Mercs
   (and losing, in a minor way, face with the population).
c) Refuse to hand over the hostage and die in a blaze of glory,
   showing that *he* wouldn't give in to any extraplanetary
   invader.
d) Trust the PCs in organizing a resistance... similar to (c),
   but with a (low) chance of actually working, and if it does
   indeed work, he will be able to reap public prestige for
   having been able to repel the invading force, even if most of
   the work would have been done by the PCs.
   
Knowing the guy, he would probably go for (d), unless,
obviously, the PCs come up with something different, or make
some mistake which convince people they are incompetent fools.
Another factor is the presence of the retired-Scout NPC, who
acts as an advisor and would vote for (a) but could finally be
convinced to go for either (b) or (d). He does not trust the
Mercs.
There is a Zhodani spy in the city, but he will probably prefer
not to act: if the Mercs kill anyone in the city this will
negatively influence any chance of the planet going back to the
Imperium, and he would definitely like either (a) or (d) which
could both cause political problems between the city and
Imperial forces in the future. He does not want (c): he is not a
cold blooded, uncaring, communist psi-monster mutant traitor,
Imperial propaganda notwithstandig.  
Unfortunately he can't ask for outside help; the landing of
Zhodani troops would cause a political incident.
If the PCs help save the city and casualties are low enough,
they will probably end up getting the hostage for free: after
the battle the chief will be easily convinced that *not* having
the guy around is the wisest choice.

>Heck, even once off planet the PC's
>would still have to get their client's son back to him while the
>mercenaries and their bosses try to prevent them..imagine all the fun that
>could be. ;->
Well, they could take a long detour before reaching their
destination planet... Thank you for these ideas, they could
prove useful if the PCs manage to avoid a showdown.

>OTOH, if *you* (or your players) are set on a combat scenario then go for
>it! 
Again, can't say for now. I'd like a combat scenario (just out
of diversity, I tend to go for the investigative approach) but I
don't want to force it on my players.

>ps. It you can't punch a hole in your enemy's armor (foex the combat
>walkers) then try to immobilize them. If you can't immobilize them, then
>try to blind them. If that doesn't work....run away! -- 
Yes, I hope that the PCs will show some ingenuity in this.
Perhaps mining buildings just inside the wall gates in order to
trap the walkers under the debris. One of them has some (low)
Demolitions skill.
If they go for the _Seven Samurai_ idea I'll let them try some
stuff against the two walkers and use the third one (the one on
the bottom of the river) as a nasty surprise to make things more
interesting.

...........
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

>>Is there any *canonical* guideline on using ship
>>weapons as AP or anti-tank weaponry.
>
>It's well covered in TNE...not that that does you much good.
Well, it does... thanks to your explanation.


>Typically, a starship laser has a rate of fire between 1 pulse per 3 minutes
>and 1 pulse per 20 seconds - the laser on a scout would normally be closer
>to the former, but could fire at higher rates of fire with extra power
>(if the ship wasn't maneuvering and could devote all power to the laser,
>for example.) At ground combat ranges the laser, for all pracitcal purposes,
>can't miss a vehicular target like a G-carrier; they are (as you say) 
>much *much* nearer than space combat targets. A laser hit is pretty much
>guaranteed to disable or destroy a G-carrier. On the other hand, the 
>G-carrier's plasma guns probably deserve a 1 or 2 rating in T4 space
>combat terms, and have a higher ROF, so it's not very one-sided; the PCs
>will have to be clever, ambush the G-carrier, take advantage of surprise,
>etc. 
Well, one of the possibility for the PCs could be leaving the
ship just below the surface, with only the laser turret outside.
This would probably give them the chance to put out a hit (i.e.
an automatic kill) on the incoming carriers. The surviving one
will have to choose what to do... attacking the starship, going
for its original mission (using the buildings for cover),
running away...

BTW, up to what range can the G-Carriers weapons fire?
Also, the starship can travel at up to 2-G... to which speed can
the G-Carriers fly? IIRC they are a kind of armored Air Raft, so
their speed should be in the 100-120 Km/h range. Which speed can
the starship manage in the atmosphere?



__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:05:40 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Fencing Styles

s.johnson107@genie.com writes:
[snip]
>But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then it's
>inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become important.
>Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue as to
>where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a Spanish
>Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth
Century.
>Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like some
>pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that would be
>applicable.

   Yup...such style differences still exist today.  The 'pistol' grip seen
on many epees and foils today is also called a 'Belgian' grip.  When I was
activily taking sabre lessons a few years back, my coach was teaching
'Russian method'.  This was due to Russians cleaning up in Olympic sabre
lately.
  In M:0, the styles could be named after planets, sectors, Fencing
Masters, or after the name of a famous Salle d'Arms.
  For a good read of well described fencing, try Zelanzy.  Two instances in
particular stand out.  In the first and tenth Amber books.  The first has a
duel between Eric & Corwin.  The tenth has a bought between a young punk
Amberite, and a shadow ghost of a Prince not named for those who want to
read the stories.  The punk kid is using a blade on the light side of
broadsword.  The Ghost is using a blade on the heavy end of rapier.

  This gets into whats the popular style of Court blade?  Rapier, sabre,
katana, or gladius?  A mix?  Is rapier & main gauche 'sporting' to use
against katana?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales.  Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:24:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Fuel discussion

   Hi.

> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:56:20 -0400
> From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>

> Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
> reaction are?

   1H1 + 1H1 -> 2H1 + positron + neutrino

   It turns hydrogen into deuterium, or `heavy hydrogen'.  There is no
   such thing as helium-2; its nucleus has no bound state.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:08:23 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: TL-10 ships

>Am I missing something obvious, or are HEPlaR drive just worthless?
You just have to be more patient with HEPlaR; you can't accelerate
all the way to a gas giant and back, but you can accelerate part way, coast
for a long time, and deccelerate at the end. (After all, NASA gets TL-7
probes to Jupiter without efven HEPlaR...) It'll typically take a week or two
to get to a gas giant, if I recall correctly. Most HEPlaR ships will have
enough fuel for 40 hours or so of constant acceleration. Nowhere near as
good for cruising around the solar system as thrusters, but it breaks fewer 
laws of physics.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:09:40 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: CD-Rom

>  The sales figures are WAG, of course, but the rest isn't so
>far off. I understand IG is very good at doing mail order, and
>I doubt they feel a need to involve needless middle-men. This
>could be a well-needed cash cow.

If it covers CT, MT, and TNE, it could also be a long-lived cash cow...

Re-pressings of an extant CD can be done cheap.
And as often as needed.

At least, once the initial overhead is gone. I'd also like to see it in
stores... or at least made available to stores.

If the price is low enough (30-50 $US), I know guys who'd pick it up simply
to get a useable, hard to destroy, caffine and pizza-immune edition of
either CT or MT or TNE rules. That's part of why I'd like the CD-Rom... and
same for 3 of the 5 guys interested locally. I dunno 'bout Peter Newman,
tho... and he orders for the FLGS in anchorage...

HEY, PETER, do you think it would sell locally???

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 19:23 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Is t4 Traveller?

In-Reply-To: <496B04A5FDB@urt-stud.uni-trier.de>

> -> << 
> ->  Are you making it up as you go along, or are you trying to stick to 
> ->  Traveller As We Know It?
> ->   >>
> -> Reread Foundations of Traveller in the basic T4 book. I use that as a
> -> reference. That said, I want to retain what has gone before as cannon, and
> -> find ways to blend it in to what we're doing today. 
> -> 
> -> Sometimes logical extensions of poorly thought out previous material make it
> -> illogical or untenable, and we have to find ways to disable it.
> But some of the well-known facts will remain, won't they.. Such as Tl-
> Limits for RoM, the Droyne still exist (contrary to the info in 
> Anomalies) and stuff like that?

Yeah, it's things like that I was meaning. I would like to think that major 
changes like raising the ROM 2-3 TLs and wiping out an entire Major Race were 
unintentional, and can safely be ignored. 
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:42:16 -0700
From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
Subject: Re: TL10 Ships

> >Am I missing something obvious, or are HEPlaR drive just worthless?
> 
> The trick is you don't run the drive full time, just build up a
significant
> velocity and coast. Run your HEPlaR drive for an hour or two and then
> switch it off. The great advantage of Thruster is that you can run your
> drive full time.
> 
>   Andrew etc.

Ok, I would believe that. So what is the standard duration for thuruster
fuel? How many hours of fuel should a ship carry?

Eric J
Alric@SpryNet.Com

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jul 1997 10:11 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

(This is a re-mail.  Did the list get my previous mails??)

How about:

* Scan in images of the booklets.
* Provide a text file index.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:18:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

>     Boring rules stuff:  Aren't computers at TL16 semi-sentient and
>     sentient by TL17?  (MT Ref's Manual, I think.)  Since you can
>     design *experimental* stuff one TL above your own (ship design
>     section in Ref's Manual) ... there may be some sentient TL17
>     computers left lying around in relic ships.

Ship's computers do not need to be "AI" by the classical definition to be
interesting.  Programming, after thousands of years of evolutionary
development, should be able to come up with a "pretty smart" ship's
computer that is not technically AI. So what does that mean?  For me it
means that the ship's computer can follow orders, make sassy replys,
reorder supplies, learn from its mistakes within limits, recommend courses
of action (based on known and estimated data) and understand language
pretty well (when the meaning is relatively clear).  It cannot come up with
ideas not programmed into it (and who says how many crazy ideas are
programmed in), but it can initiate action if the right parameters are met.
It cannot alter its own programming unless programmed to do so.


>     My true feelings: even if the canon lot find holes in the above,
>     I find it an interesting idea.  Players stumble into a ship with
>     sentient computer that's a relic from Darrian's past.  Cue:
>     interesting personality for the computer, complete with funny
>     voice, etc.  In fact, this may well happen to my players in a
>     week.  I just need to decide on the right funny accent,
>     personality and name for the computer - any ideas out there?

The last ship's computer which had personality was an NPC computer
transferred from a Kinunir.  The programmer gave it Madeline Kahn's voice.

At one point she broke into the Lily von Shtup routine..."I'm tired...tired
of being admired."

A classic moment for those who participated.

Perhaps the next one will have Eartha Kitt's voice.  That should please the
Aslan on board.

How about James Earl Jones?  ("Selden, I am your Father...oops, I mean
Captain, contact off the port bow!").

How about Mary Tyler Moore?  "Oh Rooob! the jump drive is offline"

or Marvin the Martian "Hmmm, we seem to have a malfunction in the P238
space modulator."

Oh, and if anyone suggests a certain machine in a certain Arthur Clark
story, I'll throw hacknied biscuits at them.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:27:31 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel discussion

Robert Flammang wrote:
> 
>    Hi.
> 
> > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:56:20 -0400
> > From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
> 
> > Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
> > reaction are?
> 
>    1H1 + 1H1 -> 2H1 + positron + neutrino

+ about 1.4 MeV (IIRC)

	Matt McL

> 
>    It turns hydrogen into deuterium, or `heavy hydrogen'.  There is no
>    such thing as helium-2; its nucleus has no bound state.
> 
>    -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Exemption Question

As an eleven yaer military veteran who left the service of his country
because of the policy of using our military on our own soil, all I can say
is that we are now damned. This road, once started upon, leads nowhere but
to dictatorial power.

On Topic -- Whether or not an Imp Marine on a local world is subject to
llocal law should be a matter negotiated between the Imperium and the
local governament. Each world would have different demands for different
reasons.

- ----------
Mark Ayers
Net Admin for the Book and Bean Internet Cafe: <admin@bbic.com>
Traveller Referee for Seattle Metro Gamers  <mark@bbic.com>
- ----------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1632
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1633



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Droyne Homeworld
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
CD-Rom
Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Re: New T4 books I'd like to see
Re: Traveller CD
Re: Ship Noises
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Various
Re: Ship vs Vehicle
Re: Traveller on CD
Re: Traveller on CD
Subject: Safety Feature!
Re: Ship Noises
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Traveller on CD
MS-Hiver plot
Re: Tactical Scenario

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:52:51 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Droyne Homeworld

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:58:20 MET
Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> writes:
>
>- -> _Secret of the Anchients_ puts the droyne homeworld in Yaskodray's pocket
>- -> universe; he pinched it off AROUND the droyne homesystem. Said system was
>- -> in the Spinward Marches. Unfortunately, I cannot give more detail, as I
>- -> don't have my own copy of that adventure (yet)
>WRONG (sorry to say)...
>SoA states that Yaskodray pinced off three worlds one of which is 
>remarkably SIMILAR to the Droyne homeworld... Hoiwever both are not 
>the same!
>MM said on the list that in Shionty belt there exists yet another 
>Pocket Universe (YAPU), which in turn contains the Droyne homeworld. 

Volker is right.  Shionthy Belt was only hinted at in the pubs of the time.

Volker, would you happen to know when (timeframe or digest #) that MM
said such?

>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>Volker A. Greimann


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:47:43 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>>I've seen mention, in weapon descriptions in the EA, of laser sights.
>> The TL 13 Guass Pistol, for instance, lists laser sighting.
>
[snip]
>TNE assume this system for fire fights :
>
>In semi auto mode
>Up to 5 shots per round. The first one can be an AIMED one if you've spent
>a round to aim. An aimed action has a difficuly level lowered.
>
>Now, the Laser sight allow you to have 3 aimed shot pour round (instead of
>one). This is available inside the range of the Laser (which usually is 240m)
>
>So if you don't aim, Laser sight are no use.
>And then, in auto mode, you cannot have aimed shots so the laser sight
>doesn't help.

And, as a marine once pointed out to me, the laser sight is as good as a
flashlight when trying to shoot at the *user* of the sight.  I would treat
anyone using a laser sight as a big target in a darkened room, for example.
Of course, the sight usually goes on just before a round is fired, right?
Maybe just an increase in what some systems call "signature" for the firing
weapon.

Anyway, the players in my group rarely use laser sights since I explained
this opinion.  Does anyone here use such devices, and can they verify or
comment on this opinion?

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
brenton@psfc.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:54:54 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:51:59 MET
Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> writes:
>
>- -> among other things.  I do not know what was said here, but my recollection
>- -> of reading _all_ the stuff about the Droyne was that they were not known to
>
>- -> be collectively one race in M0.  It was only after years of Imperial
>- -> sophonotologists piecing things together that they learned that all these
>- -> worlds scattered about with Chirpers and Droyne, were in fact one race.
>Yes, but in anomalies, the REFEREE data states that all droyne were 
>destroyed. That's not what the people of the time knew, that's 
>Referee data!


J.P. suggested that you were referring to the following:

  _Anomalies_, IG, 1997, pp 21-22.

  From 3: Lone Whisper, "The Prisoner in the Pyramid"

    "... The Droyne were ultimately destroyed in a centuries-long conflict
     by their very creator.  This being is referred to as 'Grandfather' ..."

  Sounds like the final war to me, though Grandfather is somewhat
  exaggerated as their creator, it is easy to see that PoV.

  Then, after some additional gloss/insight into the Final War era:

    "... he [GF] reportedly hunted down and destroyed every powerful
     Droyne that existed."

  I do not read this as saying that _all_ Droyne were destroyed.  It
  says "every powerful", which I interpret to mean his grandchildren,
  his children, and all worlds that were high enough tech to be a threat.
  Certainly, that is the meaning of "powerful Droyne" to me, especially
  read in the context of CT/MT materials previously published.

I had previously covered this passage and hadn't considered that you were
referring to the above since I found it entirely consistent with what we
know, plus some embellishment, which I have previously stated is fine with
me.  Fill in more holes, fill in more holes, fill in more holes, fix some
particularly deep ones.

IMO :)

Oh yeah, and before this comes up again, even though AM5 said that GF was
very careful and kept count, there is room for one of the children/grand-
children being on _Khiinra Ash_, especially since I originally posted that
is was _easily_ possible to do a _perfect_ double for the child/gc.  I even
posited that a good question would be, which of the two (original or clone)
was in the pyramid?

The referee is _clearly_ left to determine the outcome of the adventure,
so nothing wrong or new there, eh?

If I have the wrong quote, please aprise me so that I can read that
correct one.


>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>Volker A. Greimann


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:06:59 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: CD-Rom

I'd _love_ to see this done.  As has been pointed out, there's a lot of
potential labor available right here; _use_it!  I would gladly help with
scanning, proofreading, etc.

My preferences (roughly prioritized):

1.  ASCII text.  IMHO, this is a must for maximum flexability.  The
original information, except for significant errata.  Maybe include
original (incorrect) info for completeness.  Additional comments, etc.
should be added in a separate section and referenced, or possibly as
footnotes.

2.  Extensive search capability.  I consider an index (barely!) less
important than this, since _no_ index will contain _everything_ that'll
be searched for.

3.  A thorough index.

4.  Images separately scanned and stored in a common format.  I'm not
terribly picky about what, although I do tend to agree about the
information loss problems with JPEGs.  Deck/floor plans in particular
should be separate high-quality images.

5.  _Simple_ HTML.  I would personally like to see fairly extensive
cross-referencing and a hyperlinked index.

6.  Some printable version of the original pages.  PDF or whatever, I
don't really care.  While this would be handy, it's quite secondary to
good qualtity searchable text.

I'd also like to see some commentary from you, Marc, detailing the
evolution of Traveller and tying the various versions together.  Of
course, I realize this risks further effects on canon... ;)

I'm fairly sure that 1-5 above would easily fit on a single CD-ROM,
although I can't prove it.  This is something I'd readily buy; the USD80
figure that someone threw out would be fine.  Of course, discounts for
those who help but it together seem reasonable also. :)

If there's room, we might even sneak a few software utilities on it.  Of
course, then it looses it's cross platform appeal.  Well if we get to
the point of worrying about that, I, for one, will be ecstatic!

	Matt McL

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:12:31 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

>Leroy Guatney wrote:
>[snip]
>>Also, I and at least two others know where the Droyne homeworld was. :)
>
>Wow!  That's so cool!  It must give you an absolutely massive hard-on.  I'm
>sure I speak for everyone on the list when I say I really, really envy you.

So Leroy is the other person who knows where it is! Since Marc actually
posted the original location of the Droyne homeworld on the TML a few weeks
back, and I actually read the post, Marc and I must be the two other people
Leroy refers to. To think that only Leroy and I actually read Marc's
posts... I feel so proud.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:58:43 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: New T4 books I'd like to see

I would like to see a book of Traveller artwork, containing pictures of
things like spaceports, ships, vehicles, tools, maps, aliens, ancient
artifacts, cities, characters, and so on. I feel that showing the players
pictures of things really increases their enjoyment and understanding of
the game and helps GMs visualize settings better. The Star Wars RPG has a
bunch of great books of art to show players. Chaosium and White Wolf often
include props or diagrams in their adventures. Emperor's Arsenal is the
only IG book I have found that includes good, useful artwork.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:04:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> My 2 cents: scan everything, OCR it, then send it out to a bunck of voluteers
> to edit. Collect it back up, slap it on a CD, sell it. I'm sure that there
> would be enough volunteers that you could edit everything into a decent state
> in a few months, for nothing more than a free copy of the final product and
> their names in the credits. I'm not saying it would be a fast project, but
> slow and cheap is sometimes better than fast and expensive.

I agree with Ethan, except for the 'ill-fated Newton' bit...the man
obviously hasn't tried a MP2000 ;-) I did...and now think my trusty 'ol
MP100 is a real dog :-( 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 21:50 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970731082855.006b0258@athens.net>

Paul,

> And don't figure the little scurrying sounds from the little somethings
> living in the hold, walls, and between the decks...

What, you mean the PCs? :-)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 21:49 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In-Reply-To: <0237A33E0417A126*/c=gb/admd=telemail/prmd=unilever/o=unilever/ou=andromeda/ou=ccmail/s=Samuels/g=Mark/@MHS>

Mark,

> For some *great* inspiration about AI ships, I *very* highly 
> recommend most of the Ian M Banks 'Culture' novels.  The tech level 
> is a little beyond Traveller.  However, it might be interesting for 
> the Darrians to have some such ships left over from their earlier 
> days ...

Seconded. Worth reading just for the ship names...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 21:49 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Various

In-Reply-To: <0237A33E043D914F*/c=gb/admd=telemail/prmd=unilever/o=unilever/ou=andromeda/ou=ccmail/s=Samuels/g=Mark/@MHS>

> SNIP
>   On a more serious note, if a _CT_ resource CD were done
> separately of other material (which should avoid any license 
> questions, as well) who would pay around $80 US for it?
>      
> Me!

<aol>
Me too!!!
</aol>
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 21:49 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Ship vs Vehicle

In-Reply-To: <v01540a03b005eaa83074@[198.70.218.36]>

William,

> It is also covered in MT. Player's manual has stats for all covered ship
> weapons, except meson guns and disintigrators (i've got a fix for that,

For MGs, doesn't it say something like, 'if you're in the blast radius, 
you're dead'?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:44:52 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> Ok!  Ok!  Not JPEG.  ;-> Let's just make sure that anything that is
> picked is a common standard available across *all* platforms,
> including DOS, all versions of Win*, OS/2, Macintosh and all versions
> of *nix.

Which is why I feel a format with a few source-code-available reference 
implementations is a good idea. That way, any past/future computers 
with a C compiler can have at least a converter that can change the 
images into a 'native' format.

> I know next to nothing about PNG, just how widespread is it now, and
> is it growing or shrinking?

At a guess it's growing. However, it *is* a minority format. No *way* 
are all those porn disks/bbb's/websites full of pirated gif's going to 
change over. ;-)

If I remember correctly, the next version of Netscape/IE are going to 
support it, and for now one can get a free plugin for both at 
http://speedy.siegelgale.com/solutions/png_index.html. (Only Win and 
Mac unfortunately.) Or one can simply do it the oldfashioned way and 
use a helper app that knows the format. ;-)

> BMP, PCX, TIFF, GIF and JPEG seem to be the most common among the
> graphics editing programs I have.  I didn't see PNG listed.
> Ghostscript, Galleria, and PMJEG all say they can display PNG, though.

Well, BMP, while certainly an easy format (well, actually, it's too 
complicated for being a simple bit dump), makes huge files. PCX ain't 
too bad, only, it is (like GIF) a 256 color format. Not likely to 
matter much for this project, unless you want the color scans to look 
good.

> Please, not TIFF!  The only less standardized standard than TIFF is
> Unix.

While I don't agree about Unix ;-), I do agree about TIFF. It's not 
only designed by a committe, it's designed by several committees that 
apparently weren't on speaking terms. ;-)

For anyone who - for some arcane reason - wants more info, take a look 
at http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/~mxr/gfx/ , the near-canonical list of 
graphics file formats. (Can anyone tell I once wrote a graphics app? 
;-)

> That's at least 3 of us that want a plain text dump! ;->

Plain text, it's not just a good idea, it's the Law. (Or it should be, 
anyway. ;-)
 
> Sigh!  The *latest* versions of WORD and WP that *I* own are the
> versions before they understood what HTML was.  (Word 6 and WP 6.1) I
> don't want to upgrade either, because the new versions won't run in
> Win 3.1 or under OS/2.

That I *can* relate to. (Not using OS/2, however. I still suffer from 
trauma brought on by having to use, understand and support OS/2 1.0, 
1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. I'm no longer responsive to attempts to tell me 
that OS/2 is actually quite good these days. ;-)

I am, however, always willing to help a fellow OS/2 sufferer. ;-) Have 
you looked at this page? 
http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/Tools/html2things.html He lists a lot of 
tools that convert HTML to a variety of formats, among them RTF, which 
I seem to remember having been supported in Word since day one. 
(There's even a converter to WP 5.1, so you're all set. ;-)

> Yes, if Lynx will display the pages then Navigator/Explorer shouldn't
> have a problem with them.

And if they do, they're wrong. ;-)

> Well, if Lynx can handle the tables...;->

Oh, it handles tables quite nicely. It just displays all cells after 
each other, one to a line. ;-)
 
> Hee, hee!  I don't have a problem *displaying* frames, I just consider
> them a total waste of space, time and bandwidth...all sizzle and no
> steak.

Well, yeah. (Ok, ok, I use them on my site. So I'm inconsistent. ;-)
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:57:57 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

> From: deadeye@ebicom.net
> Jonas Karlsson wrote:
> > > No, no, no! Not JPEG! Please. Using a self-disintegrating image format
> > like JPEG is *not* a good idea for images that are going to be
> > processed in any way.
> Please explain the meaning of self-disintegrating?  JPEG format is
> VERY important to me, but I know little about it except it was
> supposed to be good for images.  Whats up?

Well, basically, JPEG uses a destructive ("lossy") compression 
algorithm. That is, it 'knows' what it can remove from the image 
without there being much chance a human eye notices it. While this *is* 
handy for 'final' images (when you don't really want people to mess 
with it anyway), it does also mean that each and every time you save 
the image, it is re-compressed, meaning a bit more information is lost. 
(Not *strictly* always true, but for a general overview, true enough.)

Also, JPG/JPEG is primarily meant to display true-color high-resolution 
images - photographs - it's not really suitable for scanned text.

For more - and more clearly stated ;-) - information, please take a 
look at : http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/~mxr/gfx/faqs/JPEG.faq . Section 10 
is of particular relevance. Another good site
is http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/~mxr/gfx/

Now, I don't know why JPEG is important to you, so it may be that the 
above doesn't really matter to you (perhaps it's near-ubiquity among 
potential customers is more important), but if you work professionally 
with images you should at least be aware of the above.
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:15:50 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Subject: Safety Feature!

> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
> Subject: Safety Feature!
>   I guess no one told you - that's a broadcast on vacc-suit helmet
>   radio 
> frequencies just so you know that the great big ship in question is
> powered up and should be given the right-of-way. You wouldn't believe
> the track they're required to use when they back up.

LOL!

>   "Are you sure you wouldn't like some toast?"
>       Sadly, not anonymous. Please don't hurt me.

I loved that episode! So, for an obTrav, has anyone written up the Red 
Dwarf using their favourite Traveller ship design system yet? Or the 
Blue Midget? And how about good ol' Kryten? (Not that he's a ship, of 
course. He's a Robot. And he's going to Silicon Heaven! ;-)

Jonas "Gaspacho Soup!" Karlsson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:35:07 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

Paul D. Owensby wrote:

>
>And don't figure the little scurrying sounds from the little somethings
>living in the hold, walls, and between the decks...
>


	The clanking footsteps of the security 'bots and the hum of their
Fusion+-powered chainsaws...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:53:11 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

At 03:18 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Pete wrote:

>Perhaps the next one will have Eartha Kitt's voice.  That should please the
>Aslan on board.
>
>How about James Earl Jones?  ("Selden, I am your Father...oops, I mean
>Captain, contact off the port bow!").
>
>How about Mary Tyler Moore?  "Oh Rooob! the jump drive is offline"
>
>or Marvin the Martian "Hmmm, we seem to have a malfunction in the P238
>space modulator."

Woody Allen.  "Aw, jeez.. Two Sword worlder battlecruisers on intercept
courses.. in range in 20 minutes, this is so typical.."

Bob Weir (for any Deadheads here)  "I get the feeling that the port
thrusters aren't just exactly perfect."

Bill Clinton.  "Mah fellow shipmates, let me just say at this juncture..
<25 minute snip> ..and, in closing, the power plant is going critical.
Thank you."

Beavis&Butthead.  PC: "Computer, Get us off this rock!"  Computer: "
Huu-hu-hu.. you said "get off".. huhuhuhu.."

Next?

>Oh, and if anyone suggests a certain machine in a certain Arthur Clark
>story, I'll throw hacknied biscuits at them.

HAL! HAL!  (I've got the munchies.)

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:22:16 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

At the risk of continuing to beat this dead horse, :) I have a few more
things to say.

Compiled old Traveller stuff (CT, MT and even TNE) on a CD it a great
idea. But it's also a lot of work, I would like to side with those
suggesting we, the fans, assist in the task.

Even so, it would take a lot of time and effort. Here is my suggestion:
Why wait for *all* the material to be scanned and edited before
releasing it? Why not steal a page from TSR (see <www.tsrinc.com>) and
release the material one Little Black Book at a time?

As each book is converted, the doc could be published on the Imperium
Games site, for downloading by the masses. Once everything is converted,
it's a relatively simple matter of throwing everything on a
cross-platform CD and offering it for sale, (along with fan-produced
computer aids even). I predict that it will sell like hotcakes even if
the stuff is available for free on the 'net. Everyone likes to have
things neatly compiled and stored on one CD-ROM, to free up HD space.

Here's how I envision the process:

1. IG announces the next LBB that will be scanned (once or twice a week,
say) on the TML (great resource of enthusiastic fans) and website.

2. 2 or 3 (at most) hardy souls volunteer to compile the corrections to
the scanned material. Their mission is to match as closely as possible
the lastest printing of the book. Any errata is added in an ADDENDA. 

3. IG posts the email addr. of selected suck--er-- volunteers to their
website and TML. They also post the RAW scanned data, OCR'ed, in text
format, to a web or ftp site. (A volunteer or IG itself may have
scanned/OCR'ed it) All interested parties are invited to email
corrections to the volunteer editors.

4. Editors email corrections to IG for formatting. (give 'em 3-4 weeks)

5. Final doc is posted to web or ftp site for downloading by the masses.


Andy Brick wrote:

>   Personally, I would think that PDF and other heavy document
>   formats are overkill. Simple HTML is a lot smaller for the same
>   content and has the advantage of active content ( Java,
>   JavaScript etc ) to provide any number of customised
>   navigational aids, tools, you name it.

FORMAT: Does .pdf suck?

I say no.

Why I like .pdf:
- - Totally cross-platform
- - Doc is encapsulated in one file, with all fonts and formatting intact
- - It can be printed with correct pagination
- - It can be indexed, and include a table of contents
- - *Notes* can be easily added by the author, or reader!
- - Hyperlinks can be imbedded to acess those mentioned websites/tools
- - It can be bookmarked and searched
- - Graphics can be embedded (and hot-linked too, iirc)
- - Line-Art can be printed crisply
- - Text can be copied and edited
- - Index and search across multiple documents (LBB's)

Some things about .pdf that suck:
- - Printing to non-postscript printers is sometimes problematic
- - Can be slow and a memory hog on older systems


Frankly, I can't see the advantage HTML would have over .pdf. For those
that cannot/will not use the .pdf, a plaintext version could be
supplied. Could you imagine trying to print a HTML version of a LBB? It
would look like a dog's breakfast. I hate scrolling through a long HTML
doc, or worse, linking through a folder of separate pages, even with a
ToC.

The customized java/java script tools could be provided by hyperlinking
within the .pdf to the file. Anyway, I think the whole idea of embedding
java tools is too ambitious for a project like this...

Final point: IM(ns)HO, it boils down to what the format was designed
for, and whether that meets the objective of a re-release project.

HTML: Distributed information across network, hyperlinking, device
independant browsing.

PDF: Electronic document publication, printing, local cross-platform
browsing.


Terribly sorry for being long-winded about this... I don't like it when
HTML is viewed as some sort of panacea. "Chuck it into HTML, everyone
can browse it, you can hyper-link it, it's active!" yadda yadda

Summary: Why HTML sucks:
- - Labour intensive. HTML tools are still in their infancy, any good word
processing or page layout tool can produce postscript faster and more
easily
- - Difficult to print it the way it was intended to look
- - Cumbersome to browse. Either everything has to be broken up in
separate files (labour again), you make lots of hyperlinks and indices
(ditto), or you scroooooll.
- - "Tags" get in the way

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:47:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: MS-Hiver plot

Just a passing note......

I was futzing around with a Windoze machine today, mucking about in the
registry, and I saw a reference that really got to me...they refer to
something called 'Hives'.

Windoze is a Hiver plot?

NOW it all makes sense to me!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:48:00 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

> >>Is it possible, for example, to use the starship Laser against
> >>the G-Carriers?=20
> >Definitely. The G-carriers may be small and agile, but you can't outrun
> >or dodge a laser pulse - at planetary combat ranges lasers (for all
> >pracitcal purposes) never miss. Atmospheric effects might reduce the laser's
> >effective range to a few tens of km, though. And the G-carriers/troops
> >can fire back; a scoutship's hull isn't particularly tough. THere's also the
> >risk of the merc's ship deciding to become involved if it detects the PC's
> >ship. Pretty tough scenario.

On problem which I don't think is well addressed is the fact that space 
weapons are designed to target and track objects 1000+ miles away. They 
need to be able to traverse very accurately and thus slowly, compared to 
to a vehicle mount which has to target bigger objects at very much closer 
range than space combat. Thus a G-carrier's mount would traverse quickly, 
and be pointed accuratley enough to have a reasonable chance to hit it's 
target.
In the scout vs. g-carrier scenario, the scout could get lucky if the 
carrier pilots are rookies, and down one, then he's dead meat. If the 
ship took off and got to a longer range, where it's mount's long 
distance accuracy counted for more, it could toast the beggars.


> Well, I don't know what the PC will do in the end, but from what
> I'm gathering from you and the other TMLers the starship will be
> a real asset. A weapon which automatically hits at "few tens of
> km" would be very powerful.

Hmmm, automatic hits? I don't think so. As soon as the G-Carriers are 
targeted by the ship's or turret sensors - they are going to evade - fast.

hope that helps,

Eamon.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1633
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 31 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1634



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1632
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: Imperial Exemption Question
Re: Traveller CD and page count
Re: Marine OTC
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Query
re: sensor rules
Re: More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..
Re: Traveller CDs
Re: Bounty Hunters and the Law
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Fuel Discussion
Re: Traveller CD and page count
demi-god vs guru
Re: Zeros
Safari ship
Used ships
Re: Alternate Rank Structures
Re: Traveller CD
Re: Support for the Development of Space
Re: Roswell
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1628

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:11:37 -0600 (MDT)
From: Marcus Teter <marcus@geminga.physics.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1632

Traveller Fanatics:
There is a book publishe circa 1950 called "Dueling" that has a lot of
discussions of the duel as a method of setteling disputes.  It focuses on
the rules "written and unwritten" used. I would say that it is a must read
if you are putting dueling into your campaign.  I'll look up the exact
library information and post it by the end of the weekend.

Later,
TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:43:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

> TNE assume this system for fire fights :

> So if you don't aim, Laser sight are no use.
> And then, in auto mode, you cannot have aimed shots so the laser sight
> doesn't help.

Thanks Nicolas.  It does help some.

Does anybody out there have T4 rules for laser sights?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:21:44 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Exemption Question

William F. Hostman wrote:

> Recently, I saw on TV that some US Army soldiers are under local
> criminal
> investigation in Texas for firing upon a civilian while on border
> surveilance; the Army claims that they fired in accordance with their
> rules
> of engagement for the mission they were on at the time.

Actually, I'm pretty sure these were Marines assisting the DEA.  They
were fired upon.  Then gave a warning.  They were fired upon again,.
They fired a warning shot.  Then they were fired on again!  And then
they took the sumbitch* out.

* = Texan for bad guy.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:21:19 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:

>      GDW       DGP       Other           Total
>
> CT   3086      142       2527      5755       (+1737 pages of novels)

There were Classic Traveller novels????  Man, I must have been way out
of the loop growing up in Oklahoma.  Out of print by now, right?

bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:12:55 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Marine OTC

Larry Hadley wrote:

> > From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >
> > 1) Why do the marines not have an OTC or Military Academy
> equivalent? I
> > would have thought that they would, especially as they are the elite
>
> > fighting troops?
>
>    Marines use Naval Academy for their OTC requirements.

But since Naval characters have Officer Flight School, and Amry grunts
have Officer Commando School, shouldn't the Marines have their own
specialized professional military school?  Something like Spaceborne
Combat School?  Studying such topics as Environmental or Zero-G combat,
boarding hostile vessels, repelling boarders, etc.  Perhaps:

Upon Graduation:  Environmental Combat, Boarding Tactics, enter Marines
at Rank 02

New Skill - Boarding Tactics:  The knowledge to secure hostile
spacecraft internally and defend from hostile boarding parties.  This
would involve locating critical systems in unknown ships, identifying
booby traps, etc., as well as isolating resistance.  In game mechanics,
it might function as initiative bonus.

A must for Marines and Pirates everywhere.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:17:01 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Peter Brenton sent: 

<expt tech rule snipped>

<Simulated AI discussion snipped>
> 
> >     My true feelings: even if the canon lot find holes in the above,
> >     I find it an interesting idea.  Players stumble into a ship with
> >     sentient computer that's a relic from Darrian's past.  Cue:
> >     interesting personality for the computer, complete with funny
> >     voice, etc.  In fact, this may well happen to my players in a
> >     week.  I just need to decide on the right funny accent,
> >     personality and name for the computer - any ideas out there?
> 
> The last ship's computer which had personality was an NPC computer
> transferred from a Kinunir.  The programmer gave it Madeline Kahn's voice.
> 
> At one point she broke into the Lily von Shtup routine..."I'm tired...tired
> of being admired."

Cool. I've got, funny enough, a Darrian TL-17 exploratory cruiser, called 
'Far Traveller' as an NPC in my current game. The PC's discovered the 
ship after a misjump, floating in the Trojan Reaches ever since she'd 
misjumped herself to escape the Maghiz.

They got on board, started chatting to the ship, and then began to make 
decisions on her future all the whilst ignoring her prescence. When they 
made up their minds and gave her the orders she refused, stating that she 
was a Leutenant Commander in the Darrian Navy, and as the last surviving 
officer on the ship she'd be the final decision maker.

Then they started treating her like a person and not a computer - she was 
very agreeable if treated well - not some cap-tugging AI simulation.

Her personality came across as a well read, amiable, and capable military 
officer - an Ivanova who wouldn't bite your head off on a bad day.

One of the PCs asked her what she'd do when she was retired, after all - 
the ship would probably be scrapped. She replied that she'd then be 
plugged into the Darrian World-Net, and really expand her horizons!

Eamon. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:38:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Query

One thing I was wondering...

What is in the Spinward Marches Campaign? Is it similar to the Traveller
Adventure?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:34:05 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: sensor rules

Bruce writes:

>I'm waiting for comments before posting
>them to TML (and opinions about how interested TML people are - the
>rules are fairly long (about 20K.)

No bigger than a THUDDD then! ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:36:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: More T4.1 c-gen notes and queries..

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>2) Would it be a good idea to put in some travel time if the Military
>>acadamies and Naval acadamies are at fixed locations? This is more relevant
>>towards M1100, when travel to Core would take a significant period.
>
>I would imagine that each subsector would have its own accredited set of
>Academies.

Maybe each Depot?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:32:21 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CDs

Loren Wiseman wrote:

>Scanning and OCR of the Traveller text will have to be done carefully. My
>early experiments indicated that "Aslan" sometimes comes through as "Asian"
>and "Vland" sometimes as "Viand".
>
>To name two...

Yes, when I converted the MT imperial Encyclopedia, it took 45 min on the
photocopier, 1.5 hours to scan, and about 8-10 hours to go through clean up
and edit the OCRd  file in a Word Processor.

And that was before I started to think of hypertexting it!

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:37:37 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bounty Hunters and the Law

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Nicholas Sylvain wrote:
> >
> > Not exactly.  There is a relatively obscure Federal law that grants
> > bounty hunters some greater leeway than that normally allowed a
> > private citizen (but I can't find anything handy... maybe someone
> > else out there does?)
>
> I seem to remember something about this.  I'll do some quick research
> tomorrow at the office (Denton Texas District Attorney's Office).
>

Sadly, I couldn't find much of anything in the Texas and US Fed Law I
have access too.  There are laws on both Bounties and Rewards though
(omitted from my digests though, presumably because they haven't been
changed in a long time).  Bounties are authorized by the State
Legistlature for persons performing duties/services for the public good
- - but these are apparently specifically created.  Of some help are the
False Imprisonment laws which provide an affirmative defense for those
who 'lawfully' detain or arrest people if there is sufficient probable
cause.  A warrant for arrest is probable cause (to be technical, you
need probable cause to obtain a warrant in the first place).

One digested case described an event in which a private citizen
(presumably a bounty hunter) kicked in the door of a fugitive's house
(without warning), "wrestled the fugitive to the floor" (read kicked the
shit out of), handcuffed him, dragged him out to his car and took him to
the police station.  The fugitive sued the bounty hunter in civil court
for false imprisonment.  The fugitive lost.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:58:59 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

Bill Prankard wrote:

> >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 11:58:00 GMT
> >From: s.johnson107@genie.com
> >Subject: Fencing Styles
>
> I can tell you that there are many styles of fencing today, and in the
> next
> 2500 years or so I would believe there would be thousands more.  But
> the
> basic styles you mentioned are correct:

I think a mix of styles is about right.  Although, thousands of styles
might be created, its more likely that most off these would be
"anal-retentive" variations on several dominant schools.

[snip]

> I believe that in the future, as cultures on our world grow closer,
> there
> will be fusion styles.  It is already begining now.  I have seen Iaido
> and
> Kendo moves used in fencing styles (mostly for parries).  Who knows,
> maybe
> someone would develop a technique in which psionics are used to sense
> where
> bullets are flying and give the swordmaster ability to deflect them?
> :-)

This point is certainly true.  Several of the prominent films in the
last decade, and probably Star Wars too, that featured sword fighting
incorporate Kendo explicitly into the moves.  I'm not a fencer myself,
but I've seen several interviews with the fencing instructors to movie
sword fighters and they have said this.  Guess I'll have to watch the
Princess Bride again for what is surely the best film fencing scenes in
several decades.

"Why are you smiling?"
"Because I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?"
"I am not left-handed."

On a more serious note:  At higher TL's wouldn't it be likely that
swords of all sorts would be made of the best material around, as
opposed to plain ol' steel?  What would a superdense claymore do
compared to a steel one?  And at what TL do we get the rapier that cuts
effortlessly though metal and stone?  12? 13?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:11:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Sanders <kalin@bambam.swlink.net>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but Roger E. Moore did an
excellent three-part article (10 pages total) on AI Starships in
Polyhedron.

The articles were entitled:

"Role-Playing Rockets: The Spacecraft Player Character, Part 1"
	Polyhedron #60, pages 16-19.
	  Introduction.
	  AI-Starships in film and literature.
          Creating AI-Starship PC's (skills, limits, size, personality).
	  Short Circuits (dealing with AI-Starship specific problems).

"Cruisers and Characters: The Spacecraft Player Character, Part 2"
	Polyhedron #61, pages 25-27.
	  Integrating AI-Starships into the gaming group.
	  Integrating AI-Starships into particular RPG's 
           (including Traveller, MegaTraveller, and 2300 AD).


"Astronautical Adventuring: The Spacecraft Player Character, Part 3"
	Polyhedron #62, pages 22-24.
	  Various adventuring hooks for AI-Starship PC's.	
	  AI-Starships as NPC's.
	  Conclusion.


These three articles (in fact, ALL of Roger E. Moore's "The Living Galaxy"
articles in Polyhedron) are well worth tracking down.
  
L8r,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Discussion

> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:56:20 -0400
> From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
> 
> Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
> reaction are?
> 
> Would it be a lighter Helium isotope? (ie 2 He 2)

Ask a *chemistry* buff, and the answer is H2 -- diatomic hydrogen, the
usual state of hydrogen at lowish temperatures and pressures.

If you ask a *physics* buff, the answer is 2 He 4 (think that order is
right -- anyway, 'normal' helium, two protons and two neutrons).
Proton-proton fusion actually ends up involving four protons and yielding
a single helium nucleus.  

IIRC, the lightest viable helium nucleus is 2 He 3, with two protons and a
single neutron.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:20:25 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD and page count

>>>>>>>>>>>
>So what are we looking at here?  I do not have access to my traveller
>books, but I would guess about 100 books with an average of 60 pages.
>600 pages that need to be scanned, converted, edited, categorized with
>keywords and sorted into a database type environment.  Is that the
>problem?

According to my lunchtime calculations, that's off by a factor of 10!  I
think you meant 6000 pages.
<<<<<<<<<<<

Yep! Slip of the finger, typing in bed in a hotel room on a laptop, etc,
etc, blah. No excuse.

Damn, I need to proof read more :)

Thanks for the page count and the bibliography search.  BTW, can I get a
copy of that. 

I will look into this, but the best information so far is the number of
people willing to help. The best, most cost effective way IMHO is to
take advantage of those who are willing to help. 

Count me in. 

More to follow later.

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:31:53 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: demi-god vs guru

<sattire>
>Oh, and thanks to that Mega-Traveller demi-god who sent me Supps 11/12. One
>to go!
>  Pst, anyone have a copy of Supplement 10 to spare?
>
>  Sorry for the proselytizing.
>
>        Steven Hudson

I'm no diefic type...merely a guru.... Don't want to read the minds of T4
and TNE types like Harold and Ken.

</sattire>


William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:41:32 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Zeros

> 
> I'm sorry <long pause> sir, that system is down for PMS
> 
> Evyn,
> Former BM2 US Navy.
> Boats, will do for a civil response.
> 8-)


Touchee!  :)

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:03:34 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Safari ship

I am trying to find the stats of the safari ship (I really like that
ship, I think it has one of the coolest deck plan).  Does anyone know
where I can get it?

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:06:39 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Used ships

One of my player ended up with a used merchant ship in the character
generation.  He wants to sell it (another character has a ship and it
would be stupid to have more than one).  Does anyone have a rule out
there for how much a used ship would be worth (I tried looking for a
rule on wear and tear in FF&S in order to determine how much that ship
would be worth but I can't find anything (there should be an index to
that great - but painful to search through - book)).  On the other hand,
if anybody has a rule out there for purchasing (or selling) a used ship,
I'd be happy to have it.  Thanks.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:16:19 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate Rank Structures

Hi David,
> 
> Should have known the Army Doggies would start to gang up against the
> Marines.  Just because we did something you never thought would work.  :-)

Roger that and Semper Fi!

Dan Lane
LT   USN

"The raising of that flag on 
Suribachi means a Marine Corps 
for the next 500 years."

	-James Forrestal (To Lieutenant General H. M. Smith, USMC
	                  as the Marines raised the colors on Mt.
	                  Suribachi, 23 Feb 1945)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:27:13 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

I wrote:
> Remove game rules, etc, and keep the adventures, history, etc.  

And agree with everyone who disagreed with me... the collection should
be kept intact. I can change my mind.  :)

>>>>
The game rules are important to allow you to convert a CT task / ship / 
vehicle into a later system equivalent.  I strongly recommend that they 
are included.
<<<<<

Later:

> The choices (for creating a CD-ROM) are:
>  
> Scan every page as an image.
> Scan every page and convert to text.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit.
> Scan every page and convert to text, then edit, 
> and remove some of the material.

do not remove material, please, with the possible exception of artwork 
(as I assume that getting permission to re-publish artwork is not a 
quick task ... lots of those artists will have lost contact or refuse 
permission).
<<<<<

A question to any old GDW folks:  Did GDW buy the rights, or only pay a
user fee?

This may not be a issue. 


> Scan every page and convert to text, then make it hypertext.

So far the best answer. 

I have not returned home, but enough people on this list have responded
to make me believe that this is ultimately possible. Grab a complete
collection of Traveller, ship it to some document company and get a cost
estimate. 

I have not heard from Marc.  Should we look into this anymore? Is
someone at IG going to take the ball and run with it?

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:09:46 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Support for the Development of Space

The magazine, _Ad Astra_ is IIRC put out by the NSS. 
It is a great resource for all kinds of ideas that
can be used in lower tech adventures.  

In addition, last January/February issue had quite a
bit of room dedicated to research into ftl transportation.
For instance, NASA has started an advanced projects
branch that deals only with finding possible methods to
break the lightspeed barrier.  The USAF has become 
involved as well, funding research by Rueda, Haisch, and
Puthoff.  These three men worked jointly on a paper 
published in 1994 that comes close to explaining gravity 
and inertia along with possible methods to control them.
Some of the other works being reviewed include Alcubierre's
Warp Drive (which just happens to use the same principles 
as described in the Rueda, Haisch, and Puthoff research).

Dr. Robert L. Forward (some of you may have heard of him),
has identified four experiments that could be done to test
the theory in Haisch's paper.  NASA and the USAF are allocating
grant money for researchers to run these tests and others.

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:40:23 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Roswell

- ----------
> From: Glenn Crawford <glennc@nelvana.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Roswell
> Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 8:50 AM
> 
> 
> Does anybody still seriously believe in the UFO story?
> 
> Actually, does anybody seriously believe the US government could keep a
> secret this long, especially one this big
> 
> For that matter, does anyone seriously think that ANY government can keep
> something this big secret
> 
> Actually, the explanation is quite simple: it is a damaged Vilani jump
> drive. By the time we will be able to understand it, we will be throughout
> the solar system. At that point, the government will surreptitiously cartit
> out to the asteroid belt, and "discover" the principles of jump drive. And
> then, we're off


Lets see, it's been eight years....?  Nope, still gotta
respond with the usual: If I tell you I have to kill you...

However, there are some very interesting historical 
writings in India concerning um, flying vehicles, including
the secrets required to keep them running.

Did you know that there is a Buddhist sect (Tendai) that
has believed that a man from the planet Venus came to us
in the past (don't know when) to save mankind?  He allegedly
travelled through time more than a million years....

Then for really interesting reading, check out Erich Von Daniken's
Chariot of the Gods.  Neat stuff to read and speculate about, 
but no way to prove.

So IMHO the Roswell ship was actually a derelict spacecraft
that finally reentered the atmosphere and crashed.  It was built
over 30,000 years ago, before the high tech society that created
it perished due to the onset of the latest ice age...

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:14:58 -0400
From: John M Gardner <gardclan@erie.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1628

> Please explain the meaning of self-disintegrating?  JPEG format is VERY
> important to me, but I know little about it except it was supposed to be
> good for images.  Whats up?

>I think what Jonas was trying to say is that JPEG is a lossy image
>format. You don't notice so much for photographic images, but you'd
>notice a loss with "cartoonish" - or graphic art - images. The
>self-disintegrating feature would only happen if you re-saved it as a
>JPEG over multiple iterations so that the losses involved with the >format
>would be cumulative.

JPEG is not all that distructive if you are careful about how much
compression you allow.  When doing typesetting, we (my fellow workers
and the local graphic artist types) prefer TIF for the initial scans
(beacuse they are easy to work with) and generally produce EPS or
Illustrator 88 as the final product. (because they are vector formats,
and do not rasterize when resized within a document.)  Each file type
has its uses and drawbacks.  JPG is usually used when space is at a
premium (when isn't it?)  

My personal take on the cd is to use PDF or text.  I happen to prefer
PDF because I use it alot, and can appreciate its capabilities (if used
properly).  Text is acceptable, and just as useful.  All I want is the
material available for use in my homespun (read: heavily plagerized)
campaigns.  

- ---John

A chicken is just an egg's way of producing more eggs.
- ---Unknown

No matter where you go, there you are.
- ---Eienstien

Any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties in order
to gain security, shall have neither
- ---Benjamin Franklin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1634
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1635



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Caledon subsector
Re: Zeros
Re: An Officer and a Gentleman
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Scanning/OCR
Re: Traveller CD
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Support for the Development of Space
IRC Game
Newton owners?
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Safari ship
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1634
Re: Used ships
Stutterwarp Universe
Cannon and the E-mail word
Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)
Re: AI ships and Darrians
Auction Update #04: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:23:56 -0400
From: Tom Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

> voice, etc.  In fact, this may well happen to my players in a
>      week.  I just need to decide on the right funny accent,
>      personality and name for the computer - any ideas out there?
>
  How about using Majel (sp) Barrett's voice (hey hey hey--I was only
joking)

Zen and Slave from Blake's 7 are good.  Or for a whimsical and
unreliable model there's always  "Hi There!  This is Eddie your
shipboard computer...." from Hitchhiker's guide (specifically
remembering the voice of David Tate in the radio program).  At any rate
pick something at least a little eccentric, there nothing more boring
than a completely "obedient" AI!  :-}

Enjoy,

TT

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:58:10 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Caledon subsector

Does anyone know where the Caledon subsector (described in Traveller
Chronicle #7) is located.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:49:24 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Zeros

At 08:41 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
> Evyn,
> Former BM2 US Navy.
> Boats, will do for a civil response.
> 8-)

Ok how about a uncivil response "Hey Deck Ape!"<g>

Former FTM2 US Navy (Never Again Volunteer Yourself)
Birds, will do for a civil response or 
for an uncivil one, "Fuc*ing Twidget!" ;-P
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 03:56:05 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: An Officer and a Gentleman

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:46:22 -0400 (EDT), CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-07-29 03:06:00 EDT, you write:
> 
> << >There are two ways of looking at this. First, in society as 
>  >class-conscious as the Imperium[1], a scummy little Soc-1 peasant will 
>  >have a much harder time getting promotions than a Soc-10 gentleman, who 
>  >plays golf with the Baron every other weekend. From this point of view, 
>  >you can be promoted as long as your Soc is >= the minimum for the rank. 
>  >If you receive a further promotion, you get a +1 Soc instead. Next  time,
>  >since your Soc has increased, you may be promoted.
>   >>
> 
> But it's so much more interesting to have a group of naval officers on the
> bridge of the Arghishilli, most with Soc clustered around 7 and one of the
> with Soc 2. Is he a nerd? A buffoon? An ambitious peasant? Son of a famous
> criminal? Does he always embarrass the ship at Naval Balls?

"We're with the Boarder Patrol, miss, we don't have balls".

It had to be said :)

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 03:58:06 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:23:56 -0400, Tom Trelenberg wrote:

> > voice, etc.  In fact, this may well happen to my players in a
> >      week.  I just need to decide on the right funny accent,
> >      personality and name for the computer - any ideas out there?
> >
>   How about using Majel (sp) Barrett's voice (hey hey hey--I was only
> joking)
> 
> Zen and Slave from Blake's 7 are good.  Or for a whimsical and
> unreliable model there's always  "Hi There!  This is Eddie your
> shipboard computer...." from Hitchhiker's guide (specifically
> remembering the voice of David Tate in the radio program).  At any rate
> pick something at least a little eccentric, there nothing more boring
> than a completely "obedient" AI!  :-}

I'd prefer Holly from Red Dwarf (male incarnation):

"I've an IQ of 6,000... the same IQ as 6,000 PE teachers."




James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:04:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Scanning/OCR

Eris Reddoch Said: 

> On 07/30/97 at 10:04 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
> 
> >Scanning and OCR of the Traveller text will have to be done carefully. My
> >early experiments indicated that "Aslan" sometimes comes through as
> >"Asian" and "Vland" sometimes as "Viand". 
> 
> Hey, that's what spell checkers are for.  Don't you already have Aslan,
> Vland, Zhodani, Solimani, et. al. in your user dictionary? ;->

Sure do. But the scanner read lower case l (ell) as i (eye)  almost 100% of
the time. This was with relatively recent (bought within the last 6 months)
hardware and software borrowed for the occasion

Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus /  "Great Old One".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:59:47 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

As a person who works in pre-production for publishing, I wanted to throw
two questions and two comments in from the lurker's sidelines ...

Someone wrote:

> 10 minutes per page for scanning is silly. What you do is cut the spine
> out of the book and feed it through a scanner with a sheet feeder. You
> could probably do an entire Alien module in 20 minutes or less. Of
course,
> you destroy the poor thing in the process... *sniff*

A question: Are there no original manuscripts?

Much of Traveller was published before modern desktop publishing, so what
did the typesetters work off of? A typewritten, double-spaced manuscript is
*much* easier to OCR than a published work set in 8-11 pt. Helvetica.
Although you wouldn't have the formatting of the original books, the
information would still be there.

Which brings up the second question: What exactly do people want from this
project?

Some on this list seem to desire electronic carbon copies of all of the
books, complete with artwork, in .pdf or some other high-quality format
ready to output on their own desktop. Others seem to want only the
information in an easily accessable layout. This is a big issue when it
comes to cost. The better-looking you want the product, the more man-hours
are spent on creating it.

At the low end you simple scan in the text, OCR it, and then edit it (this
would take a little work). At the high end this would mean scanning it,
OCRing it, editing it, laying it out in Acrobat -- or better, Quark or
Pagemaker -- and then Distilling it to .pdf format (this would take a *lot*
of work).

BTW, the idea of saving the pages as 300 dpi images would probably be the
worst of both worlds -- even 300 dpi scans of text can look sloppy
(especially the small stuff), and not everyone is going to have OCR
software. Nor are a lot of people going to want to view this stuff onscreen
only (I wouldn't).

Of course, I am biased -- I tend to desire the information more than the
art and layout.

My .000 000 000 002 Cr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:07:59 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

> Ship's computers do not need to be "AI" by the classical definition to be
> interesting. ... It cannot come up with ideas not programmed into it (and
who says
> how many crazy ideas are programmed in), but it can initiate action if
the right
> parameters are met. It cannot alter its own programming unless programmed
to
> do so.

What is the classical definition of "AI" anyway? I am curious to know --
does it mean "thinks like us?" You mention that a non-AI cannot come up
with ideas not programmed into it. Does this mean that only AI systems can
generate novel, creative output?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 00:28:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Support for the Development of Space

On 08/01/97 at 01:09 AM,  "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> said:

>The magazine, _Ad Astra_ is IIRC put out by the NSS.

Yes, _Ad Astra_ is the "house" magazine of the National Space Society.
 
>It is a great resource for all kinds of ideas that
>can be used in lower tech adventures.  

>In addition, last January/February issue had quite a
>bit of room dedicated to research into ftl transportation.

The last two issues May/June and July/August had an interesting 2 part
article by Buzz Aldrin. It appears that he is involved with a company
called Star Boosters Incorporated that has a number of interesting
designs/plans to lower access to space costs.  There was also an
interesting article about a hybrid H2/O2 Fission rocket in the latest
issue.

Getting the magazine is worth the $20 yearly membership dues to belong to
NSS. As if supporting mankind's expansion into space isn't reason enough.

Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:46:44 -0700
From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
Subject: IRC Game

I am still looking for a couple more players for a T4 IRC game to be run on
a week day (probably). For more information contact me at my address below.

Eric J
Alric@SpryNet.Com
Fuzion Page: http://members.aol.com/rfintnl/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:27:18 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Newton owners?

Hi all,

>I agree with Ethan, except for the 'ill-fated Newton' bit...the man
>obviously hasn't tried a MP2000 ;-) I did...and now think my trusty 'ol
>MP100 is a real dog :-(

Which reminds me - how many people on this list own Newtons and would be
interested in Traveller software written for them? No, I haven't written
any yet (I don't own a Newton yet), but I have been thinking about getting
one and the developers kit. Any interest?

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 09:29:24 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>And, as a marine once pointed out to me, the laser sight is as good as a
>flashlight when trying to shoot at the *user* of the sight.  I would treat
>anyone using a laser sight as a big target in a darkened room, for example.
>Of course, the sight usually goes on just before a round is fired, right?
>Maybe just an increase in what some systems call "signature" for the firing
>weapon.

Yes, you are right. FFS laser sight are bit big and heavy, so it's not
usable on pistols.

My character have one on a (heavy) rifle. I assume the laser sight has a
tunable frequency so it can be from IR to NUV. Sure you nead a special
device to see the spot. But this weapon is build to be a snipper weapon, so
it's porvided with all the needed stuff (WSV helmet in the occasion).




- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 08:44:46 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

I've been giving some thought to the Code of Dueling for the Nobles in my=
 Mileu =

0 campaign and I've pretty much decided the weapon of choice will be a sw=
ord. =

Why?  Because it would require skill, any idiot can point a pistol and pu=
ll a =

trigger.  But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then i=
t's =

inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become important=
=2E =

Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue as=
 to =

where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a Spani=
sh =

Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth Ce=
ntury. =

Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like som=
e =

pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that would=
 be =

applicable.
     =

Hi Steven,

In fact, I suggest you choose *which weapon* before thinking about styles=
=2E  =

Fencing with an =E9p=E9e is different from fencing with, say, a foil.  Di=
fferent =

weapons have different lengths, which makes a *big* difference.  Also, in=
 =

modern (1990's) fencing, different weapons are allowed to strike differen=
t =

parts of the body when scoring.  (This may be redundant if you want peopl=
e to =

fight to the death rather than for points, unless your Nobles really are =
very =

noble.)

I don't know much about earlier fencing, but perhaps someone else on the =
list =

does ... ?

Mark
(Who has fenced foil.)

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 09:07:37 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Safari ship

I am trying to find the stats of the safari ship (I really like that 
ship, I think it has one of the coolest deck plan).  Does anyone know 
where I can get it?
     
     Hi Daniel,
     
     Yes, the MT stats are in the Imperial Encyclopaedia.  I think there are CT 
     stats for it somewhere too (probably with the rules for the Hunter 
     character class).
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 09:05:06 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

     SNIP
     Obviously some people on this list know a lot more than me about the 
     history of fencing.  Reading some of the history, I'm glad I only did 
     it for sport!

This gets into whats the popular style of Court blade?  Rapier, sabre,
katana, or gladius?  A mix?  Is rapier & main gauche 'sporting' to use 
against katana?
     In modern fencing, it's only considered 'sporting' for opponents to 
     have identical weapons (e.g. sabre versus sabre, or foil versus foil) 
     because longer weapons have a big advantage.
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:11:19 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1634

>Ask a *chemistry* buff, and the answer is H2 -- diatomic hydrogen,
>the usual state of hydrogen at lowish temperatures and pressures.

Which would be wrong, as the chemistry buff would know - that isn't
fusion.  For a physicist's take on how fusion might work in Traveller
(at least the MT/CT varieties) check out the article at

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/fusion.html

by that old Traveller contributor J. Duncan Law-Green.  Basically, as
someone else said, 1H + 1H gives you 1H_2, ie. a molecule; fusion
needs a bit more help.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 09:17:55 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Used ships

One of my player ended up with a used merchant ship in the character 
generation.  He wants to sell it (another character has a ship and it 
would be stupid to have more than one).  Does anyone have a rule out 
there for how much a used ship would be worth (I tried looking for a rule 
on wear and tear in FF&S in order to determine how much that ship would 
be worth but I can't find anything (there should be an index to that 
great - but painful to search through - book)).  On the other hand, if 
anybody has a rule out there for purchasing (or selling) a used ship, I'd 
be happy to have it.  Thanks.
     
     Hi Daniel,
     
     How much is a second hand car?  I think you'll find a lot of difference 
     between what people will pay for the same vehicle.  When you then add 
     different locations (planets) into the question ...
     
     Surely this is an ideal opportunity for your players to meet an 
     interesting character ... the 'used spaceship salesperson'?  "Wanna buy 
     a ship?  Good condition, one careful owner, bargain price.  Best Type S 
     this side of the Claw."  This could be a lot of fun!
     
     I urge to not to go with a mathematical formula!
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:43:02 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Stutterwarp Universe

>
>stutterwarp / jump universe, as I find no problem with the T2300 / FF&S
>stutterwarp in a Traveller universe where Jump drives reign supreme <dons
>flame proof TL16 Battle Dress from RoM to protect himself from followers of
>"true" canon).
>
>
>Simon

<Canon defense mode>
Arrgghh!!! How Dare You!!!
</Cannon Defense Mode>

Actually, I've done that myself... I have one of the Islands cluster gov'ts
(in Reft)  using stutterwarp, out of FF&S1, in my MT setting. I also gave
it a side effect... at 6.62_ LY, it Detonates! Cooldown times are important
in making stutterwarp not preferable to Jump. So are other restrictions,
including costs.

Have fun!

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:43:07 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Cannon and the E-mail word

THe numerous "corrections" quoting MM as putting Eskaloyt at Shionthy are,
well, proof that even the cannon mongers (myself) can be wrong... However,
it also Illustrates the problem with anything on the net being canon... it
is only available to the individuals who were reading it at the time... (I
now vaguely recall said discussion). There have been several "corrections",
and they all differ slightly... When I first read SoA, It came across as
the droyne HW AND TWO OTHERS in said pocket universe.

In any case, Eskaloyt IS, in whatever condition, IN THE MARCHES, as I said.
And, according to one fellow poster, in a Pocket Universe, thus, the
accusatons of "WRONG" are equally so. DId I specify which Pocket universe?
No... I couldn't support it.

<sattire>
Hmm.. an evil thought... perhaps the IMPERIUM is the pocket universe...
then we wouldn't have to correct the System Generation settings....
</sattire>

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 01:09:36 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@Alaska.NET>
Subject: Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)

Paxson, David wrote

> Here is information from my scanning a full-page of text.  This is 8.5" x 11" format scanned at 300 dpi.
> 
> This was a combination of an article from Marc Miller on milk bottles
> and the tail end of another article from Dragon Magazine, scanned
> without permission.
> 
> Bytes           Format
> 1,056,062       MilkBottle-RLE-1-bit.bmp
> 1,056,062       MilkBottle-1-bit.bmp
>   292,997       MilkBottle-1-bit.gif
> 1,881,298       MilkBottle-75-Quality-8-bit.jpg
> 1,408,244       MilkBottle-50-Quality-8-bit.jpg
>   591,509       MilkBottle-RLE-1-bit.pcx
>   591,509       MilkBottle-1-bit.pcx
>   306,175       MilkBottle-8-bit.png
> 8,395,218       MilkBottle-8-bit.tga
>   876,808       MilkBottle-RLE-8-bit.tga
>   250,536       MilkBottle-CCITT-Group-3-1-bit.tif
> 1,050,270       MilkBottle-1-bit.tif
>   127,568       MilkBottle-CCITT-Group-4-1-bit.tif
>     8,471       MilkBottle.txt
>    26,624       MilkBottle.doc
>     8,326       MilkBottle.html
>    11,279       MilkBottle.rtf

Well when are you going to make all these versions of the article
availale to those poor benighted souls who (unlike myself) do not have
Dragon #50.  I would venture to say that not only was this article the
definitive CT treatment of milk bottles but is bar none the finest
article on milk bottles I have ever seen for any RPG.  We really need to
have the stats in this article updated for T4 (and TNE, and MT) though. 
I shudder to think of all the Traveller referee's & players out there
trying to get along without this _the_ definitive article on milk
bottles. :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:26:27 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: AI ships and Darrians

In my Traveller universe, sometime in the 1120s...

...there's a heavily damaged Kinunir-class ship from the Battle of 
the Two Suns still floating near the battlefield.  In the adventure I 
wrote, the PCs were looking for weapons to outfit a privateer to 
operate against the Vargr.  A rumour (or more accurately a covert 
DINI agent who's supporting the project unofficially) sent the 
PCs to the old battlefield, dodging unexploded ordnance and Imperial 
patrols, and eventually they found the ship.

To cut a long story short, the AI Yellow Streak blew the ship up out 
of sheer cowardice, then suffered severe remorse over the next forty 
years as it drifted, crippled, crew dead.  When the PCs find it it's 
a reformed character, desperate to prove itself, but doesn't bother 
to tell the PCs that it was responsible for the damage to the ship.
It calls itself "Blue Streak" to the PCs' faces...

I have an early version of this adventure typed up, anyone 
interested?


Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 07:18:27 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #04: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

The latest update.

Rules:   Update 8/1/97  -  07:00 EDT         

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $12.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $10.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $ 8.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $ 7.00 ebevans@pop.fas.harvard.edu
        $ 6.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $26.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $25.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $22.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  $ 5.00
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  $ 5.00
Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        $100.00 bsanders@amghome.com
        $ 85.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 85.00 clark@bessemer.com
        $ 80.00 nimrod@dfw.net
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     Bid
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $11.00 tlsiew@acsu.buffalo.edu 
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        

TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net

GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $ 7.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 6.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $ 5.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                       
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 5.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1635
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1636



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Is T4 Traveller?
Re: Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)
Re: Scanning/OCR
Re: Traveller on CD
Promises
Fuel Discussion
Re: Ship Noises
Re: JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)
Re: Fuel Discussion
Re: Tactical Scenario
Re: Deep Space
Re: Traveller on CD
Fencing and the Military (was: fencing styles)
Re: Cannon and the E-mail word
Re[2]: Traveller CD
Re: Fencing Styles
Re:Caledon subsector
> Re: Various
Deckplans and Visio?
RE: Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:07:39 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?

- -> Oh yeah, and before this comes up again, even though AM5 said that GF was
- -> very careful and kept count, there is room for one of the children/grand-
- -> children being on _Khiinra Ash_, especially since I originally posted that
- -> is was _easily_ possible to do a _perfect_ double for the child/gc.  I even
- -> posited that a good question would be, which of the two (original or clone)
- -> was in the pyramid?
Easily doable?????
Grandfather "designed" his children so that their brains didn't work 
in the directions of multiplying, cloning and the like! Their brains 
were not capable of thinking in that direction: Thus, none of the 
children could clone themselves! (As i remember!)

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:09:54 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)

- -> >    11,279       MilkBottle.rtf
- -> 
- -> Well when are you going to make all these versions of the article
- -> availale to those poor benighted souls who (unlike myself) do not have
- -> Dragon #50.  I would venture to say that not only was this article the
- -> definitive CT treatment of milk bottles but is bar none the finest
- -> article on milk bottles I have ever seen for any RPG.  We really need to
- -> have the stats in this article updated for T4 (and TNE, and MT) though. 
- -> I shudder to think of all the Traveller referee's & players out there
- -> trying to get along without this _the_ definitive article on milk
- -> bottles. :)
Well i have been waiting for an official treament of milk bottles in 
Traveeller forever! Now i found out one already exists, just when i 
was going to start to write my own article... ;-)
Anyway, please post!
 


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:13:40 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Scanning/OCR

- -> Loren Wiseman
- ->       GDW Emeritus /  "Great Old One".
;-)
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:21:58 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

- -> Why I like .pdf:
- -> - Totally cross-platform
- -> - Doc is encapsulated in one file, with all fonts and formatting intact
- -> - It can be printed with correct pagination
- -> - It can be indexed, and include a table of contents
- -> - *Notes* can be easily added by the author, or reader!
- -> - Hyperlinks can be imbedded to acess those mentioned websites/tools
- -> - It can be bookmarked and searched
- -> - Graphics can be embedded (and hot-linked too, iirc)
- -> - Line-Art can be printed crisply
- -> - Text can be copied and edited
- -> - Index and search across multiple documents (LBB's)
It looks like the original book! 
(I don't want a CD just containing the info...I want a CD that 
contains the books with the info..Printable to look like the original!
HTML dons't cut it this way!
 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:50:13 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Promises

This probably will just look strange to most, but...
       ______
     /             \    -------------
     |  Biscuit,    |      ---------------
     |Hackneyed |        ----------------     "Whooooosh!"
     |to: Doug    |      ------------
     | Berry       |    -------
     \_______/

Oh, and it's kind of stale.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:56:17 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Fuel Discussion

- --------------83E5DBA704B8D401A2E7BEB2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Robert Flammang and Matt McLaughlin wrote:
> >
> >    Hi.
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:56:20 -0400
> > > From: "David A. Bussey"
> >
> > > Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
> > > reaction are?
> >
> >    1H1 + 1H1 -> 2H1 + positron + neutrino
>
> + about 1.4 MeV (IIRC)
>
>         Matt McL
>
> >
> >    It turns hydrogen into deuterium, or `heavy hydrogen'.  There is no
> >    such thing as helium-2; its nucleus has no bound state.
> >
> >    -Rob
>

Thanks...I'm not that up on my pchem...

I can't remember who (that's the problem with getting mail at work and
at home) but someone wrote that Traveller PP use just straight H2 for
fusion power...  if that is the case the waste products of such fusion
produce refusionable materials.

ie.
     Fuse 1H1 to get 2H1

     then fuse the remaining 2H1 giving you final products of

     3He2 and a spare neutron.

  Thus you extend the life of your PP, or use a two stage PP to give you
more output. Some of the heat from the first reaction can start the
second, or you can run a laser at a fraction of a MW to start the second
reaction.  (The "pellet gun" type fusion)  Even a TL-15 150 Mj laser
runs off of 0.86MW surely that's enough to start it.  You only  ;-)
need 1 million degrees celsius.

Does this seem logical, or is it already taken into account in current
PP?


- --------------83E5DBA704B8D401A2E7BEB2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Robert Flammang and Matt McLaughlin wrote:
>&nbsp;
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hi.
>&nbsp;
> > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:56:20 -0400
> > From: "David A. Bussey"&nbsp;<dbussey@bbtel.com>
>&nbsp;
> > Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
> > reaction are?
>&nbsp;
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1H1 + 1H1 -> 2H1 + positron + neutrino

+ about 1.4 MeV (IIRC)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Matt McL

>&nbsp;
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It turns hydrogen into deuterium, or `heavy hydrogen'.&nbsp; There is no
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; such thing as helium-2; its nucleus has no bound state.
>&nbsp;
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Rob</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;
<BR>Thanks...I'm not that up on my pchem...

<P>I can't remember who (that's the problem with getting mail at work and
at home) but someone wrote that Traveller PP use just straight H2 for fusion
power...&nbsp; if that is the case the waste products of such fusion produce
refusionable materials.

<P>ie.
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Fuse 1H1 to get 2H1

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; then fuse the remaining 2H1 giving you final
products of

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3He2 and a spare neutron.

<P>&nbsp; Thus you extend the life of your PP, or use a two stage PP to
give you more output. Some of the heat from the first reaction can start
the second, or you can run a laser at a fraction of a MW to start the second
reaction.&nbsp; (The "pellet gun" type fusion)&nbsp; Even a TL-15 150 Mj
laser runs off of 0.86MW surely that's enough to start it.&nbsp; You only&nbsp;
;-)&nbsp; need 1 million degrees celsius.

<P>Does this seem logical, or is it already taken into account in current
PP?
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

- --------------83E5DBA704B8D401A2E7BEB2--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:02:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

In mail you write:

> And don't figure the little scurrying sounds from the little somethings
> living in the hold, walls, and between the decks...

It's too easy to control vermin on shipboard. Since all the "permanent"
fixtures have to be able to withstand exposure to vacuum (in case of
damage to the ship), that means that you can simply take out and
clean/fumigate the movable stuff and the things like curtains and
blankets, and de-pressurize the section you took them from. It'd take
some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of vacuum.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:40:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: JPEG (Re: Traveller on CD)

In mail you write:

> Because GIF doesn't remove information from you picture, you are sure to
> have exaclty the same picture as it could into a plain format such as BMP.
> I think that GIF works only on 256 color palet. I'm not sure you wouldn't
> have to convert you 1bits picture into 8bits picture before converting it.

GIF allows for a *variable* sized color pallete. I have 2 color (black
& White) GIF files and they are quite compact. The max number of colors
you get with GIF is 256.

I may try scanning a few pages at work once we get the scanner back on
line.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:07:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Discussion

In mail you write:

> Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
> reaction are?

You mean nuclear physics, not chemistry! It's not a possible reaction.

> Would it be a lighter Helium isotope? (ie 2 He 2)

He2 isn't a possible isotope. 2 protons with with no neutrons will not
hold together as a nucleus.

"protium"	H1	1 proton	0 neutrons	stable
deuterium	H2	1 proton	1 neutron	stable
tritium		H3	1 proton	2 neutrons	short half life
Helium		He3	2 protons	1 neutron	stable?
Helium		He4	2 protons	2 neutrons	stable

The only reaction that works with only protium is 4 H1 -> 1 He4
And it's one of the harder reactions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:20:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

In mail you write:

> Also, the starship can travel at up to 2-G... to which speed can
> the G-Carriers fly? IIRC they are a kind of armored Air Raft, so
> their speed should be in the 100-120 Km/h range. Which speed can
> the starship manage in the atmosphere?

The scout ship can travel at hypersonic speeds. It routinely does so
when entering the atmosphere for landing. But it can't make rapid turns
at those speeds.

On the other hand, it is *more* than fast enough to overtake the
G-carriers, even throttled way back. And it's laser vastly outranges
theirs. (Think of a rowboat with machine guns vs a battleship. The
battleship can hit the rowboat at 20 miles, the rowboat is lucky to hit
at several hundred yards).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 01:28:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space

In mail you write:

> It may be convenient to assume that sensor TL is related to overall
> TL so that you can determine presence of GG at 1-, 2-, 3-, 4-parsecs
> at TL equal to build J-1, J-2 etc.

Sorry, won't work. At our *current* TL we can detect gas giants quite a
few parsecs away. Using spaceborne sensors we can do a lot better.

Also, there are rules about how far away "standard" ship's sensors can
spot a gas giant that date clear back to CT.

Star systems are *easily* located from more than a sector away using
astronomical gear, or "Survey" gear. Finding the gas giants will take a
few years worth of observations with a small scope, and that's only
because a small scope can't seperate the planet's from the glare of the
star. Get a one meter or bigger scope into space and you'll be able to
*see* the gas giants at quite a few parsecs.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:30:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller on CD

In mail you write:

> Jonas Karlsson wrote:
>> > No, no, no! Not JPEG! Please. Using a self-disintegrating image format
>> like JPEG is *not* a good idea for images that are going to be
>> processed in any way. *Any* other *non-destructive* compressed image
>> format that is reasonably well standardized (and has the image format
>> definition and source code for at least one implementation available)
>> would be a better idea. My personal favourite is PNG
>> (http://www.wco.com/~png/) which has the added benefit of being
>> completely unlicensed and patent-free. (But if I start ranting about
>> how *idiotic* a concept it is to patent algorithms like Unisys did with
>
>
> Please explain the meaning of self-disintegrating?  JPEG format is VERY
> important to me, but I know little about it except it was supposed to be
> good for images.  Whats up?

JPEG is a "lossy" compression format. That means that the image created
by reading the file is missing some details that were in the original.
Hopefully these details are unimportant. But JPEG allows a *lot* of
loss if you set it that way.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:28:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: Fencing and the Military (was: fencing styles)

Many thanks to Commander X for reminding me about sabre fencing!  Can't
believe I forgot that...

        Dueling with sabres came into vogue during the early 18th century,
as most other sword types had fallen by the wayside due to the predominance
of firearms, and cultural changes amid the aristocracy in general.  The
sabre was a favored weapon of the cavalry, and was also worn by officers and
NCO's as badges of rank.  (Actually, to be precise, there were three
military sword types in use during this period- heavy, straight swords for
heavy cavalry units, sabres for light cavalry and dragoons, and long, thin,
straight swords for  infantry officers and NCO's.  The sabre was numerically
the most significant type.) 
        Sabre fencing style evolved from sabre combat tactics- every part of
the body is a valid target, including hands and feet, because cavalrymen
were taught that hands (reins) and feet (stirrups) could be incapacitating
attacks of a sort.  Sabre sport fencing also encourages making very
aggressive and forceful attacks- this comes from the fact that combat sabres
were cutting weapons that in general weren't kept much sharper than a table
knife, so a lot of force was required to deliver an effective blow.
        Now the point of all this is that a case could be made for the
Imperial military having their own systems of dueling.  Officers may opt to
duel with their issue swords, as appropriate to their status.  There could
well be a school of fencing devoted to the cutlass, which would be very
similar to sabre dueling, I expect.
        Of course, the military may not officially approve of its officers
killing one another when there are plenty of other fish to fry.  It depends
upon how the GM perceives the military and the aristocracy work together.
If the aristocracy is very influential in the military, then dueling (and a
lot of errant nonsense) might be the order of the day.  
        In my campaign, I preferred to view the Imperial aristocracy as
similar to the European nobility of the early 19th century- wealthy,
cultured, snotty, and bored witless.  Since dirtying their hands with
something so common as business or industry was downright obscene (they have
people to attend to such things), the only outlet for their ennui was to
embroil themselves in political intrigue or to put in some time in the
military.  Since the Empire required its planetary nobles to raise and
maintain local combat forces loyal to the Imperium, the aristocracy had a
lot of influence over military forces.  Commissions could be purchased
outright, and dueling was commonplace. 
        Sorry, I digress.  To get back to the original point, I would think
it quite valid for the Imperial military to have their own set of rules and
regulations regarding dueling, which would bind anyone under oath.

Mike Lee

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 01:42:44 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Cannon and the E-mail word

>Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:43:07 -0800
>From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
>Subject: Cannon and the E-mail word

>THe numerous "corrections" quoting MM as putting Eskaloyt at Shionthy are,
>well, proof that even the cannon mongers (myself) can be wrong... However,
>it also Illustrates the problem with anything on the net being canon... it
>is only available to the individuals who were reading it at the time... (I
>now vaguely recall said discussion). There have been several "corrections",
>and they all differ slightly... When I first read SoA, It came across as
>the droyne HW AND TWO OTHERS in said pocket universe.

>In any case, Eskaloyt IS, in whatever condition, IN THE MARCHES, as I said.
>And, according to one fellow poster, in a Pocket Universe, thus, the
>accusatons of "WRONG" are equally so. DId I specify which Pocket universe?
>No... I couldn't support it.

Your right, half remembered quotes from the TML are not a "good" source
for cannon (witness my belief that Marc said the Droyne HW was destroyed
vis what he actually said). Mayhap important bits of canon revealed on the
TML should be archived seperately somewhere? (now there's a nightmare for
someone).

Anyhow I went back in my archieves and found the relevant posts, which I've
taken the liberty of reproducing below.

***************************************************************************
     TML digest #1565

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:07:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shionty Belt (Regina 0706)

In a message dated 97-07-15 02:54:36 EDT, you write:

>Does anyone have any information on why the Shionty Belt is interdicted
>other than that which is given in Adv 1: Kinunir.  Adv 1 says that it is

Shionthy Belt is where Grandfather tilted the Droyne homeworld into a pocket
universe after the Ancient War. It's still there.

     TML Digest #1568

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:19:43 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Shionty Belt (Regina 0706)

>>Does anyone have any information on why the Shionty Belt is interdicted
>>other than that which is given in Adv 1: Kinunir.  Adv 1 says that it is

>Shionthy Belt is where Grandfather tilted the Droyne homeworld into a pocket
>universe after the Ancient War. It's still there.

Cool , i'll add that to my Ancients Site! What is the official source 
of this info?

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- - ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- - -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- - ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- - ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- - -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

     TML Digest #1568

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:27:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shionty Belt (Regina 0706)

In a message dated 97-07-16 08:42:48 EDT, you write:

>Cool , i'll add that to my Ancients Site! What is the official source 
>of this info?

Actually, I'm not sure there is a printed source. It might be in Secret of
the Ancients. Otherwise, I suppose my email would have to be the source.

Marc Miller
***************************************************************************

><sattire>
>Hmm.. an evil thought... perhaps the IMPERIUM is the pocket universe...
>then we wouldn't have to correct the System Generation settings....
></sattire>

No that's just a Templar/RoM/Lentuli/Elvis/Grandfather/Hiver plot :*)

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 14:47:19 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Traveller CD

As a person who works in pre-production for publishing, I wanted to
 throw
two questions and two comments in from the lurker's sidelines ...
     <SNIP>
     
Which brings up the second question: What exactly do people want from this 
project?
     <SNIP>
     How about (in order of priority):
     1. All the information in an easily accessable layout.
     2. Something that looks decent.
     
At the low end you simple scan in the text, OCR it, and then edit it (this would
take a little work).
     Surely this is enough for most.
     
     My Cr.2:  Most people on this list are probably highly computer literate.  
     The market for a CD-ROM is somewhat bigger than those who are IT experts.  
     (I can think of friends with CD-ROM's who's buy this, but don't have e-mail 
     or internet, for example.)  So, whatever the solution may be, *please* 
     let's keep the final product accessible to a broadest range of punters.
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:07:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

>Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:58:59 -0500
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

>> I believe that in the future, as cultures on our world grow closer,
>> there
>> will be fusion styles.  It is already begining now.  I have seen Iaido
>> and
>> Kendo moves used in fencing styles (mostly for parries).  Who knows,
>> maybe
>> someone would develop a technique in which psionics are used to sense
>> where
>> bullets are flying and give the swordmaster ability to deflect them?
>> :-)

>This point is certainly true.  Several of the prominent films in the
>last decade, and probably Star Wars too, that featured sword fighting
>incorporate Kendo explicitly into the moves.  I'm not a fencer myself,
>but I've seen several interviews with the fencing instructors to movie
>sword fighters and they have said this.  Guess I'll have to watch the
>Princess Bride again for what is surely the best film fencing scenes in
>several decades.

>"Why are you smiling?"
>"Because I know something you don't know."
>"And what is that?"
>"I am not left-handed."

One of the best 'sword movies' of all time!  My clan, the Blaque Masque 
Salle, rents that one at almost every party :)

>On a more serious note:  At higher TL's wouldn't it be likely that
>swords of all sorts would be made of the best material around, as
>opposed to plain ol' steel?  What would a superdense claymore do
>compared to a steel one?  And at what TL do we get the rapier that cuts
>effortlessly though metal and stone?  12? 13?

I agree.  I believe in the latest of Guns, Guns, Guns(3G^3) by Greg Porter 
details how to make these weapons out of advanced materials.  I would think 
the damage/penetration would be much higher than TL-1 material.  But mostly 
it would not break, dent, nick, or rust after battle.  Always keeping a 
sharp edge. Truly magical to a lower tech civilization.

Perhaps legendary swords like Excalabur, or the 7 Swords of Wayland were 
created from material procured from Vilani Scout/Merchants?  Maybe the 7 
mystical swords were created by Walaand of Vland with TL-10 or 11 material? 
:)

Isn't Clarke's Law fun! :->

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:20:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re:Caledon subsector

>Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:58:10 -0400
>From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
>Subject: Caledon subsector

>Does anyone know where the Caledon subsector (described in Traveller
>Chronicle #7) is located.

>Daniel Poulin
>pould@netcom.ca

It is located in Reavers Deep Sector.

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 09:38:33 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: > Re: Various

> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 21:49 BST-1
> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
> Subject: Re: Various
> 
[snip]
> <aol>
> Me too!!!
> </aol>

:)

> ______________________________________________________________________
> Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
> 
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:49:51 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Deckplans and Visio?

I'm trying to create some deckplans for my newly designed yacht.
All I have to work with is Visio.

Does anyone out there have a Visio template for deckplans already
built? If not, does anyone have better (free) software for doing
these plans?

I'll fake 'em in Visio if I have to but there might be a better
way. I forgot to add: I'm using Win95.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:41:21 -0400
From: "Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com>
Subject: RE: Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)

Check out http://www.twinight.org/people/dpaxson/Traveller
All of it is there.

- - David

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Peter Newman [SMTP:pnewman@Alaska.NET]
>Sent:	Friday, August 01, 1997 5:10 AM
>To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject:	Miller Milk Bottles (was RE: JPEG)
>
>Paxson, David wrote
>
>> Here is information from my scanning a full-page of text.  This is 8.5" x
>>11" format scanned at 300 dpi.
>> 
>> This was a combination of an article from Marc Miller on milk bottles
>> and the tail end of another article from Dragon Magazine, scanned
>> without permission.
>> 
>> Bytes           Format
>> 1,056,062       MilkBottle-RLE-1-bit.bmp
>> 1,056,062       MilkBottle-1-bit.bmp
>>   292,997       MilkBottle-1-bit.gif
>> 1,881,298       MilkBottle-75-Quality-8-bit.jpg
>> 1,408,244       MilkBottle-50-Quality-8-bit.jpg
>>   591,509       MilkBottle-RLE-1-bit.pcx
>>   591,509       MilkBottle-1-bit.pcx
>>   306,175       MilkBottle-8-bit.png
>> 8,395,218       MilkBottle-8-bit.tga
>>   876,808       MilkBottle-RLE-8-bit.tga
>>   250,536       MilkBottle-CCITT-Group-3-1-bit.tif
>> 1,050,270       MilkBottle-1-bit.tif
>>   127,568       MilkBottle-CCITT-Group-4-1-bit.tif
>>     8,471       MilkBottle.txt
>>    26,624       MilkBottle.doc
>>     8,326       MilkBottle.html
>>    11,279       MilkBottle.rtf
>
>Well when are you going to make all these versions of the article
>availale to those poor benighted souls who (unlike myself) do not have
>Dragon #50.  I would venture to say that not only was this article the
>definitive CT treatment of milk bottles but is bar none the finest
>article on milk bottles I have ever seen for any RPG.  We really need to
>have the stats in this article updated for T4 (and TNE, and MT) though. 
>I shudder to think of all the Traveller referee's & players out there
>trying to get along without this _the_ definitive article on milk
>bottles. :)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1636
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1637



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Zeros
House Rules : Quick Solar System Generation
House Rules : Political Strength
House Rules : Starport Size
House Rules : Hacking the Grid
Re: AI Definition/Fencing Styles
Re: Caledon Subsector
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
CD project
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Canon and the E-mail word

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:57:29 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

>> Ship's computers do not need to be "AI" by the classical definition to be
>> interesting. ... It cannot come up with ideas not programmed into it (and
>who says
>> how many crazy ideas are programmed in), but it can initiate action if
>the right
>> parameters are met. It cannot alter its own programming unless programmed
>to
>> do so.
>
>What is the classical definition of "AI" anyway? I am curious to know --
>does it mean "thinks like us?" You mention that a non-AI cannot come up
>with ideas not programmed into it. Does this mean that only AI systems can
>generate novel, creative output?

Having first referred to a "Classical Definition" I can only honestly
say...I don't really know what it is.  It is a comfort to me though that
probably any definition will have massive holes in it anyway.  So I'll
"make it up" (I did read some on this at different stages of my life.  I
was once a psych major after all).

There is a test called, I think, the Turing test which says that a computer
is intelligent (that is, artificially intelligent) if a human cannot
discriminate between the computer and a real person.  I think that's
hogwash myself.

I think we should look at the Traveller parameters for AI first.  AI
doesn't appear until TL 16 or 17 (I don't remember quite which) and has
serious stability problems at any lower level (as referred to in Robots,
Book 8, an excellent resource).  If the model of the game requires us here
an now to go through 6-8 more tech levels before we can achieve *true* AI,
then we are, according to that model, a long way from developing that kind
of technology.  Therefore our current "Expert" or well programmed systems
are nowhere near AI.

What's the point of that?  Well, I think we can assume a long period of
development of "really smart" systems that do not meet the AI test.

Ok Pete, come clean.  What is the AI test.

I hate using the word, but I will anyway, "Sentience".  An Artificially
Intelligent computer is concious.  It is aware of its own existance, and
aware of its being.  Only when a being (and it is a being when this barrier
is crossed) is aware of itself can it learn to recognize the causal effects
of its actions, and only then can that being rationally and independantly
predict what a certain action will accomplish, allowing it to come up with
an action or idea which it has never encountered before, nor been
programmed to recognize, and guess it's result.

Sentience is the quality, but creativity is the symptom of that quality.
Non-AI computers can be made to appear intelligent or creative, but only AI
machines can exceed their programming.

Ultimately, it is independant creativity outside the bounds of previous
experience (or programming) which determines intelligence.  Intelligence is
at its heart the ability to adapt through volition, as opposed to instinct,
to the environment.  I do not know if this can be programmed or integrated
into a computing structure at all, but that's part of Science Fiction,
right?

I imagine that we will find "fuzzy logic" to be at the heart of intelligent
thinking.  Usually, recognizably creative thought includes some "leap of
imagination" or so called "Eureka event".  This is when a thinker suddenly
sees the solution to a problem which she or he (or it) has been thinking
about.  This seems to often require the ability to think "outside the box",
or without regard to the usual parameters of the problem.

Ok, I've rampbled long enough.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:10:00 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Zeros

> 
> Former FTM2 US Navy (Never Again Volunteer Yourself)
> Birds, will do for a civil response or 
> for an uncivil one, "Fuc*ing Twidget!" ;-P

And here I always thought that was one word - sort of like
"f**kingnuke" ;)

Matt McL
MMC(SS) USNR

> 
> 
> - -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
> (c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
> Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
> Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
> - -----------------------------------------------------
> -- 

>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 11:00 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: House Rules : Quick Solar System Generation

[I apologise if these are reposts;  I wasn't yet subscribed, 
so I'm unsure if they made it. -R]

Here is a house rule I am toying with to generate a solar
system on-the-fly; i.e. when my group has blipped into a
system and need to know what it looks like (but I haven't
prepared anything).

1. Roll 1D times on the table below: once on row A; the remainder
   on row B:

	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A	---	pp-	p-p	-pp	pp-	S-p	p-p	-p-	--p	p-G	-Ag
B	pAp	-S-	ppg	-pg	pp-	-pp	p-p	-p-	--p	p-G	Agg

- - = empty orbit;  p = planet;  A = asteroid belt;  g = gas giant; S = star

Determine orbital distances and spectral classes from the 
following tables:

First Occupied Orbit:	1-3		4	5		6+
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Stellar Type:		IV,V, or VI	III	II or D		I

First Gas Giant Orbit:	1-4	5-6	7-8	9-10		11+
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Stellar Class:		M	K	G	F		(A)

Stellar Magnitude: # of planets + asteroid belts

Habitable Zone = if possible, 3 orbits in from the first
                 gas giant; otherwise, choose the middle 
                 orbit (might be empty!)

Far Companion: roll 2D: on a 2, roll a companion system at
	       1D x 1000au away.


Suggestions are welcome.

Rob
                     

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 11:00 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: House Rules : Political Strength

[I apologise if these are reposts;  I wasn't yet subscribed, 
so I'm unsure if they made it. -R]

Here is a house rule I am toying with to determine the relative
political strength of a world, and what kinds of nobility might
be expected to be present on said world.

World Political Strength: 
	TL(0-15+) 
	x Population(0-A)
    	x 2 if there is a naval base present.

Strong worlds will tend to have a strength rating above 200.

Here's how I divvy out the local nobility:

Strength	#Barons			Regional Seat?
- ------------------------------------------------------------
0-24		0				
25-69		1 Patent Baron			
70-99		1	 		Barony
100-149		floor(Pop/2)		Barony
150+		Popul. Code		County
200+		Popul. Code		Marquisate
300+		Popul. Code		Duchy

On issues that call for world coalitions, one vote is given
per 50 units of power (fractions are rounded to the nearest
whole number of votes), usually cast by one of the barons.
Worlds with a Count are voting worlds; others must use a
less direct influence.

For you Classic Travellers, some sample numbers are:

World			Power	Votes
- --------------------------------------
Efate			234	5
Extolay			160	3
Glisten			270	5
Inthe			126	
Lunion			234	5
Mora			300	6
Porozlo			110
Regina-Jenghe		214	4
Rhylanor		270	5
Risek			100


So, Efate has greater raw political pull than Regina.  However, it 
is located on the fringes of the Marches, and must not have the
natural resources Regina has.  Besides, everybody knows how unstable
Efate is, what with the recent rash of terrorism... so somebody must 
have decided that Regina is a safer capital... or someone greased the 
right wheels years back.

Suggestions would be welcome.

Rob         

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 11:03 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: House Rules : Starport Size

[I apologise if these are reposts;  I wasn't yet subscribed, 
so I'm unsure if they made it. -R]

Here is a house rule I am toying with to determine the size
order-of-magnitude of a starport.  This helps me decide what
kind of facilities (or what grade or how much) are present
there.

Starport Size Rating =
	floor(The number of populated worlds within 2 parsecs / 3) 
        + (Starport Class: A=+2, B=+1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2)
      	+ floor(Tech Level / 4)
	+ 2 if there is a Naval Base.

Interpretation
- --------------
A size rating is a relation to other size ratings by a factor of 2.
Thus, a size 3 starport is twice the size of a size 2 starport, and
a size 5 starport is eight times the size of a size 2 starport.  Wow!

So, the range of starports follow the relative trade-importance of a world:

  3 neighbor worlds, class D starport, TL4 world : starport class 1.
  6 neighbor worlds, class C starport, TL8 world : starport class 4.
  3 neighbor worlds, class A starport, TL8 world, Navy :    class 7.
  9 neighbor worlds, class D starport, TLC world :          class 6.

For you Classic Travellers, some sample numbers are:

World		Starport Size
- -----------------------------
Efate		9
Extolay		7
Glisten		10
Inthe		7
Lunion		9
Mora		9
Porozlo		5
Regina-Jenghe	9
Rhylanor	7
Risek		8

So, please note that even though Rhylanor has a superior technology
level (15), its starport is 25% the size of the Regina starport.
So, fewer ships call on Rhylanor.  Regina is a bigger trade center.

Efate and Regina have the same starport size.  Probably a greater
portion of Efate's starport complex is military, while Regina's is
probably more dedicated to commerce.

Suggestions would be welcome.

Rob
                                                                              

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 11:04 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: House Rules : Hacking the Grid

[I apologise if these are reposts;  I wasn't yet subscribed, 
so I'm unsure if they made it. -R]

Here is a house rule I am toying with to allow players
to hack a world computer network, using the basic ideas
from Shadowrun with Traveller concepts.

These rules are not very solidified.  Suggestions would
be very helpful.

A hacker has the benefits of Computer skill and a 
specialised computer, for all practical purposes
a cyberdeck.  As a specialised computer, its
computational rating is +1 for grid-hacking.  The
size requirements of this deck makes its cost 
significantly higher than a regular computer of the
same TL and computational rating, but of a portable
size: say, 2-12kg.  Needless to say, there can't be
an unreasonable difference in weight between a deck
and a normal computer;  but something like this
ought to work:

Weight Ratio		Cost Ratio
Deck::Normal		Deck::Normal
- ------------------------------------
1:1.4			 2:1
1:2			 4:1
1:2.7			 7:1
1:3			 9:1
1:3.4                   12:1
1:4			16:1
(maybe 1:4 is the upper limit)

A network has the benefits of connectivity, security,
and the world's TL.  Connectivity is (let's say) a
direct measure of the Law level of the world, and
provides additional protection to network security.
The greater security is compensated: the greater the
law level, the more networks are connected to the
Grid.  Security is based on the nature of the network.

So then, the base number for entering a node in a
network on a given world is:

  7
+ Hacker's computer skill
- - World's Law level
+ 1 if a civilian network
- - 1 if a telecom network
- - 2 if a government network
- - 3 if a military network

Roll that number or less and the hacker bypassed that
node's security and is in, or (if the hacker is in)
he has successfully executed a system command.

Okay, how many dice does the hacker roll?  

Dice: 4 
      + Node Computational Rating 
      - Deck Computational Rating.

Nodes
- -----
Grid nodes have specialised purposes and a certain
connectivity set:

Node Type	Class	Connectivity Class	Purpose
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Direct Connect  I	N,S			Interface
Wireless Conn	I	N,S			Interface
Database	D	D,B,N			Distributed Data Warehouse
Bus		B	D,N,S			Intrasystem Data Pipe
Router		R	N			Intersystem Data Pipe
Processor	N	all			System and/or user tasks
Slave		S	I,B,N			Specialised system tasks

State Machine
- -------------
Here is a state table to illustrate network navigation
steps:

State			Failure to bypass security leads to:
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Data Access		[Protocol Match]
Computation Access	retry; [Protocol Match]
Protocol Match		[Security]
Security		System alert & [Intrusion Defense]
Intrusion Defense	Damage equal to world's law level?


Or something like that.

Again, suggestions, opinions and revisions would be
appreciated.

Rob
                                                                             

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:27:30 +0000
From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: AI Definition/Fencing Styles

If you are looking for the fencing styles info, it's right at the 
bottom of the message.

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> asked:

> What is the classical definition of "AI" anyway? I am curious to
> know -- does it mean "thinks like us?" You mention that a non-AI
> cannot come up with ideas not programmed into it. Does this mean 
> that only AI systems can generate novel, creative output?

Good question.  Unfortunately, it's one that doesn't have an easy
answer.  The definition of "AI" is pretty much whatever you want it
to be.  Back in the old days, people used to say that FORTRAN was
AI, because it could solve mathematical problems.  Nowadays we like
to talk about expert systems, production systems and chess 
tournaments (yeah! Go IBM!).  

I know from the bio's posted a while back that at least one other 
person here on the list is better qualified than I to be talking 
about AI, but what the heck, it's Friday afternoon.  Abusive 
emails, near-c rocks etc to the address at the bottom of the 
message.

One possible definition of the research field that seems to 
fit the discussion going on here is from "Artificial Intelligence, 
2nd Ed" by Rich and Knight:

"Artificial intelligence (AI) is the study of how to make computers 
do things which, at the moment, people do better."

By this definition an artificially intelligent machine is one that
can do something as well as or better than a human can.  Perferably
in a field of endeavour that can be regarded as intellectually
challenging, but if you want to think of your washing machine as an
AI then feel free. 

What I'm really trying to say here is that the definition of
artificial intelligence is entirely dependent on definition of
intelligence, and it is yet to be proved to my satisfaction that I
am "intelligent", let alone anyone or anything else.  The Turing
test may be a good benchmark, but only if you are building a
conversation machine.  A better thing for us to consider would be
the abilities of systems that call themselves artificially
intelligent, and go from there.

This thread started with the old quote about the Terrans using AI 
robots to crew their ships during the Interstellar Wars, yes?  And 
the resulting disagreement as to whether a they are true AI systems 
(and thus TL16-17) or not.  Well, it is my opinion that given 
appropriate conditions (money & people mostly) an "AI" crewmember is 
well within the reach of a TL12 civilisation.  

Justification?  In the late 1980's DARPA funded a project called the
'Pilot's Associate', goal - 'to define, design and demonstrate the
application of machine intelligence to the assistance of advanced
fighter aircraft pilots'.  This technology has since moved on to the 
Rotorcraft Pilot's Associate program of the US Army, and now to the 
Crewmans Associate program, looking at applying AI decision making 
techniques to the army's future main battle tank.  If we are doing 
the research now, why shouldn't we be able to produce similar 
systems for starships in a couple of hundred years time?


We now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing list.  Thank 
you for your patience.

Oh yeah, the fencing styles thing - Bryan Maloney has a lot of stuff 
on his web page:

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10

Martin

Martin Pickett 
ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are alive, well and living on Sylea 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:43:28 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Caledon Subsector

Caledon is subsector G of Reaver's Deep sector.

Reaver's Deep is two sectors Trailing and three sectors Rimward
of the Spinward Marches.

Reaver's Deep is two sectors Spinward and one sector Coreward
of the Solomani Rim.

One of my alltime favorite campaign settings, though a bit difficult
to research because materials are scattered somewhat.  I solved it
somewhat by making a collection of photocopies I call the "Reavers
Files."  <G>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:37:26 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

Erwin Fritz wrote:
[snip]
> Does anyone out there have a Visio template for deckplans already
> built? If not, does anyone have better (free) software for doing
> these plans?
> 
[snip]

I've got a copy of a shareware CAD program with some deckplans and a few
templates on my web page.  Not as easy as Visio, but . . .

Matt

>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http:/www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:43:23 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: CD project

Two more quick comments:

1    A set of conversion rules (particularly for spacecraft ;) ) between
the various editions would be an invaluable resouce, even if compiled
and distributed separately.

2    In the best of all worlds (sigh) I'd _really_ like to see the deck
plans (ok, floorplans too) redone in a standardized object-oriented
graphic format to allow customization.  This may well be a second
edition project.

3    OK, so I can't count.  I was just thinking of doing a survey on the
idea. Some items on the list:

Preferences
  Text format
  Indexing/Hypertext format
  Page image format
  Individual picture image format
  Deck plan/floor plan format
  Other?
  
Volunteers
  Scan
  OCR
  Proofreading
  Web page site
  Graphics conversion
  Other?

I'm willing to collect and colate (sp?) the results, if there's enough
interest.  The first thing I need is feedback on the survey format,
since I'm not sure of all the available options.  If there's interest,
I'll put up a survey message Sunday for comment, then collect info next
week.

Anyone?

Matt McL
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http:/www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:08:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604

In a message dated 97-07-31 08:12:52 EDT, Simon Early wrote:

<< In my opinion, ship's computers in Traveller are not too large - I used to

 think they were until I went on site to my first chemical plant (I'm a 
 chemical engineer).  The size of computers for chemical plant control has 
 not reduced significantly in the last 15 years.  Let us look at the latest 
 in high-tech control:
  >>

The alternative is (since a Pentium 200 could probably handle the processing
needs of a typical starship) is to just have a Pentium 200 plugged in at the
pilot's control couch. Well, maybe we would need two (one for the navigator).
And I suppose they should be networked, so we'll need a server. And a backup.
I wonder if they should be hardened against EMP? Then we'll need spares in
case something fails.

I suppose Engineering could get along with a dumb terminal that accessed the
network whenever the load isn't too great.

And we could really save space by building it all into the walls. So if the
hard drive crashed, just open this little book and look up where it is...
down by the fresher at bulkhead 13, third panel from the left.

 Etc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:12:18 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> What is the classical definition of "AI" anyway? I am curious to know --
> does it mean "thinks like us?" You mention that a non-AI cannot come up
> with ideas not programmed into it. Does this mean that only AI systems can
> generate novel, creative output?

The "classical" definition I'm aware of, is called the "Turing Test".

You have two (relatively large) boxes. In one, put a human being. In
another, put a computer and a human being. Pass notes with questions
into the boxes. The human in box A. writes an answer and returns it
through a slot in the box. The human in box B writes the computer's
answer out and passes it through a slot in box B.

After a significant number of questions, if one cannot tell which box
holds the computer by the output of the two "boxes", the computer can be
regarded as being AI.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:11:37 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 03:18 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Pete wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps the next one will have Eartha Kitt's voice.  That should please the
> >Aslan on board.
> >
> >How about James Earl Jones?  ("Selden, I am your Father...oops, I mean
> >Captain, contact off the port bow!").
> >
> >How about Mary Tyler Moore?  "Oh Rooob! the jump drive is offline"
> >
> >or Marvin the Martian "Hmmm, we seem to have a malfunction in the P238
> >space modulator."
> 
> Woody Allen.  "Aw, jeez.. Two Sword worlder battlecruisers on intercept
> courses.. in range in 20 minutes, this is so typical.."
> 
> Bob Weir (for any Deadheads here)  "I get the feeling that the port
> thrusters aren't just exactly perfect."
> 
> Bill Clinton.  "Mah fellow shipmates, let me just say at this juncture..
> <25 minute snip> ..and, in closing, the power plant is going critical.
> Thank you."
> 
> Beavis&Butthead.  PC: "Computer, Get us off this rock!"  Computer: "
> Huu-hu-hu.. you said "get off".. huhuhuhu.."
> 
> Next?

oooohhh... I can't resist...

Because I'm a Simpsons fan:

Troy Mclure: "Hi! I'm your ship's computer. You might remember me from
other starships such as the ISS Freefall, and the ISS
Myothercraftsabeemer"

Player: "Launch missiles at target!"  C. Montgomery Burns: "Ex-cellent.
The ragscallions will soon be running away with their tails between
their legs. Releasing the hounds..."

Bart: "Don't have a cow man! No major damage. No problemo."

Apu Nasapeetipelimon (sp?): "That system is not responding. Thank you!
Try again!"

Player: "Computer. Evade"  Otto: "Gnarly! We'll outrun 'em, dude! Uh,
oh, bummer... incoming missile, man..."

Channel ocho bee: "!Ay Caramba! El Jump Drive no funciona. !No es
bueno!"

Nelson: "Port bow's been hit! Ha-ha!"

Ned Flanders: "Okely dokely. Computing jump vector. Boy, that's one
humdinger of a problem. One diddly-little more minute..."

Grandpa Simpson: "Sure we had jump drives in my day. But back in
aught-eight we called them gomzits. Y'see in *those* days, you could get
them two for a credit, but to jump a parsec wouldn't take a week, it
took a year! We had to shut the lights off first, see, and tie a dabu
root to our hair before we got it started, but we didn't call them dabu
roots, they were called potatoes, we spelled that with an "E" see,
because there was this terran fellow named after a bird who... zzzzz"

Player: "Computer, cargo manifest please."  Homer: "5 Tons referbished
electric quad-spanners, 7 tons crushed duranium ore, 12 tons processed
dabu root... mmmmmmm.... dah-boo roooot... urruughhurghhlee..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:41:15 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: Canon and the E-mail word

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:43:07 -0800
aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman) writes:
>Subject: Cannon and the E-mail word
>
>THe numerous "corrections" quoting MM as putting Eskaloyt at Shionthy are,
>well, proof that even the cannon mongers (myself) can be wrong... However,
>it also Illustrates the problem with anything on the net being canon... it
>is only available to the individuals who were reading it at the time... (I
>now vaguely recall said discussion). There have been several "corrections",
>and they all differ slightly... When I first read SoA, It came across as
>the droyne HW AND TWO OTHERS in said pocket universe.


Well said!

I'd like to add to that by saying that Marc told me (by phone, which has
the same limitations as canon over the net) just after I had finished
absorbing _Secret of the Ancients_.  It was Shionthy then, and it is
Shionthy now.

The point is that no matter how finely tuned any canon machine is, it
just _may_ not happen to match _reality_.  That is probably the best single
statement to describe the adaptive canon methodology I have only begun to
apply to the RoM tech level issue.

BTW, if you should doubt my word about _knowing_ the answer, a few of
us HIWG members were discussing it when we were putting together the
baseline sector data for _Regency Sourcebook_ (I did Spinward Marches),
and Mike Mikesh was shocked to find out that I _also_ knew what he knew.

Also, I dodged Volker's "hot needle of inquiry" by writing off as a joke
(which was the intent of mentioning it) my knowledge.  Afterall, I hadn't
followed the Shionthy Belt thread all the way through to see MM's 7/15
post.  Just my humble attempt at a spoiler destructor.


>In any case, Eskaloyt IS, in whatever condition, IN THE MARCHES, as I said.
>And, according to one fellow poster, in a Pocket Universe, thus, the
>accusatons of "WRONG" are equally so. DId I specify which Pocket universe?
>No... I couldn't support it.

[snip]

As your original post (see below) implied that the droyne homeworld was in
Yaskodray's pocket universe, _Secret of the Ancients_ does tell us which
systems were pinched off for Yaskodray's pocket, and Shionthy Belt is not
one of them.  The Shionthy Belt pocket is a _separate and different_
pocket universe entirely.


>William F. Hostman              

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:39:30 -0800
aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman) wrote:
>Subject: Droyne Homeworld
>
>_Secret of the Anchients_ puts the droyne homeworld in Yaskodray's pocket
>universe; he pinched it off AROUND the droyne homesystem. Said system was
>in the Spinward Marches. Unfortunately, I cannot give more detail, as I
>don't have my own copy of that adventure (yet)

[snip]

>William F. Hostman              


<FUN ASIDE>

As my campaign was based in the Rim (at the time of SoA), I got in on the
fun of pocket universes as follows.

I had some Ancients of my own variety for an adventure I had been writing
in anticipation of the SoA being released (again adaptive canon approach).

I entitled this adventure the "Gods of the Ancients" not to be outdone by
GDW <G>.  The Gel (rhymes with yell) were millions of years old and viewed
Humaniti especially of all the major races as their children.  The one Gel
(Aasmeer) that the players had met on a few past occasions, approached the
party and explained that a particularly foolish grandchild of Yaskodray had
pinched off a hot, massive young star into a "research" pocket universe.
Due to the "wrap-around" effects of pockets, the grandchild was not aware
that the eventual (and rapid) energy buildup within the pocket, from the
rather energetic star's output, would eventually result in an explosion
that would make a Type II Supernova look like faint flicker.

The party's mission:  flush the pocket universe into sub-space using the
Gel equilavent of a plunger, thereby temporarily reversing entropy, and
saving untold trillions of lives in this region of the galaxy.

The outcome: the pocket was at the "end" of the Great Rift in Vland
sector.  The Gel provided transportation through a network of something kind
of like the Jump tunnel in _Long Way Home_ with the help of some Gel-loyal
droyne, the players went into the pocket, defeated the droyne on the world
within, and came out with rather smallish handguns that were treated like
PGMP-13's!

</FUN ASIDE>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1637
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1638



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[none]
Re: Droyne Homeworld
Re: Fuel Discussion
Re: Deep Space
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: AI ships and Darrians
Re: Fencing and the Military (was: fencing styles)
Fuel discussion
Re: Newton owners?
Re: Traveller CD
Re Fencing
Meson Guns and MT
[none]
Sale of Used Ships
Re: Ship vs Vehicle
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Newton owners?
Why Psionics was Suppressed
Re: Stutterwarp Universe
RE: Safari ship
Re: Fencing Styles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:03:57 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: [none]

re: Tactical Scenario


Eamon writes
>Hmmm, automatic hits? I don't think so. As soon as the G-Carriers are
>targeted by the ship's or turret sensors - they are going to evade - fast.

I've had this discussion in other contexts (point defence against 
missiles) on gdw-beta - maybe it should be a FAQ or something. The first
rule of laser weapons is very simple: Lasers Don't Miss.
(at least not until speed-of-light lag comes into effect.) It's 
*easy* to design a laser weapon where fine pointing of the laser is
done by a small,precise,fast steering mirror; such mirrors
can control positions to microarcseconds and slew over arcminutes in
milliseconds. (OVerall pointing is done with the big launch mirror,
which is much less precise bt can slew tens of degrees in a few 
seconds.) Fine tracking is done with a sensor (camera) that looks
right up along the exact same optical path as the laser will fire
along. Since the sensor uses light, and the laser beam is light,
they'll both follow the same path. If the G-carrier is on the
sensor when you pulse the laser, the laser pulse will hit it,
no matter how hard it tries to evade. Keeping the taqrget on the sensor
is also fairly easy; the sensr can run a closed control loop to move the steerin
g ,mirror to always
keep the target on the sensor.
The only way to not get hit is to be far enough away that
speed-of-light effects come into play, or to be out of line of sight.

This sounds complicated, but I've seen very similar systems work
on astronomical adaptive optics systems - our fast steerng mirror
for the AO system my group at LLNL is building for the Keck telescope
will hold targets (stars) still to about a milliarcsecond - a 
0.1 mm error at 10 km ranges. It's also how the USAF's planned
airborne laser will work (with some other issues to do with 
atmospheric turbulence effects, since they need 300-km ranges.)

>From ambush, the PC's should be able to detect and lock up one G-carrier,
and fry it. THe second G-carrier then has to react and get into cover -
or out of the laser's arc of fire - before the laser gets its next
shot. That's the fun part.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 13:12:55 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne Homeworld

Andrew Vallance was unhappy because......

*******************************************
off the pocket universe. For myself personally, I'd much rather have
Eskayloyt still around somewhere intact (would make for one epic
adventure
to find it); but as far as the canon evidence goes, Shinothy was the
Droyne
Homeworld and it was destroyed when Yaskoydray created his pocket
universe
*******************************************

I think this situation makes the adventure to find Eskayloyt even more
epic....

Consider:

Eskayloyt was "pinched" off from the "real universe" some time ago with
the result of turning the remaining planets of the original system into
the Shionty Belt....or so is my understanding of what MM posted to the
TML in response to my initial question concerning the interdiction of
this area.  IIRC others on the list who have pontificated on this
question have stated that "pinching" is not as hard to do as "creating"
a pocket universe from scratch (i.e. the "cheaper, easier, more
economical way) and that Grandfather had generated pocket universes
using both methods in the past.  (If I have mistated this please do not
take offence....I am not stating that any of what I am saying IS WHAT
HAPPENED.......all I'm saying is that it might be interesting it it did
happen this way.  Please do not call in the RCCC....My TL35RoMBD is
currently on the blink so I have no defenses from them right now)

Anyway, consider that maybe Eskayloyt was one of the early "pinching"
projects, or was done in a hurry, or was in some way performed under
less than ideal conditions (whatever those conditions may be).  I think
quite an interesting adventure could be constructed around the idea that
the "pinch" holding this PU is not perfect nor complete.....let the
several thousand years do the work that time offten does to things: 
show flaws that weren't apparent initially.  The "pinch" is weakening. 
The evidence for this is the appearence of antimatter in the system (as
predicted by the Lesser Handwaving Theory (and is is generally accepted
by the more heretical in the field that antimatter is emitted whenever
highly stressed space time begins to relax.  However these distinguished
gentlemen are also known to wait patiently each Halloween for the "great
pumpkin to rise from the pumpkin patch to....well you get the idea)  The
Greater Handwaving theory further predicts that if the point of origin
of this antimatter could be calculated, you would also know the weakest
point of the "pinch".  Looking through this point into the PU should be
possible once the "pinch" weakens sufficiently.  However, be aware that
even among those who hold the GHT to be true, there is a great deal of
diagreement on how much time elapses between the "looking glass" stage
and the CPF (complete pinch failure) stage.  When CPF occures Eskayloyt
would return to "our" universe....although no one is prepared to predict
how rough the ride will be....additionally you would not want to be
anywhere near the system when this happened.  There is even a fringe
group who beleive that this destabalization occurs (and has occured in
the past) every few thousand years....the pinch does not completely fail
it only weakens...almost to the point of non-existance....remains in
this state for a few years and then restablizes, returning Eakayloyt to
its PU.

As you have figured out I am very long winded.  I guess what I really
wanted to point out is that Eskayloyt was not destoyed, just made
inaccessable.  While desttoyed is pretty final, accessability is
something that is not so definite.  I may be wrong but I do not believe
that this violates any of the tenants of the RCCC (though their
doctrinal writing are so many...Is there anyone who is truly their
master?)  IMO finding where Eskayloyt should be and when we might see it
again could very well be a truely epic adventure.

Take it for what its worth.....

TT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 13:25:53 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Fuel Discussion

> You mean nuclear physics, not chemistry! It's not a possible reaction.
>
Well, nuclear chemistry at the least...

  I don't have all that much info on it. I only know details on a few
reactions.  I'm mainly just trying to determine what kind (ie
reactants)  of fusion Traveller uses, efficiencies of reactions etc.

At higher TL the efficiency should increase, so I want to know how to
extend PP in a realistic manner.

#ifdef TREKKIE_MODE

            Has any one thought about anti-matter reactors?  ;-)

#endif

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:27:56 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Deep Space

>Get a one meter or bigger scope into space and you'll be able to
>*see* the gas giants at quite a few parsecs.

Well, that's slightly overstated - HST can't see gas giants, after all
(although that's partially dominated by surface ripples in the mirror - not
the big figure error, but ripples on the scale of the polishing machine;
considered acceptable in manufacture because planetfinding wasn't HST's 
purpose in life.) Still, with good atmosphere correction a 5-10m telescope
on the ground can see planets, so a TL9+ 5-10m sensor in orbit certainly can.
For a first cut, I would say that a T4 sensor can see gas giants out to 
a range of 2 parsecs*sensor rating (so a P4 can see gas giants at 8 parsecs);
this would be an Average task for a sensor operator and take 12 hours per
target system (but no matter how good the sensor operator there should 
always be a 1 in 6 chance or so of missing the planet because it's 
projected too close to the star or something.)

You can even detect earthlike planets with a really good spacebased
telescope; first cut I would let a T4 sensor detect earthlike planets out
to 1/2 parsec * sensor rating (so a P4 can see earthlikes at 2 parsecs);
this is a Hard task for a sensor operator and takes 100 hours per target
system.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:37:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Tom Trelenberg wrote:

> Or for a whimsical and
> unreliable model there's always  "Hi There!  This is Eddie your
> shipboard computer...." from Hitchhiker's guide (specifically
> remembering the voice of David Tate in the radio program).  At any rate
> pick something at least a little eccentric, there nothing more boring
> than a completely "obedient" AI!  :-}

Hey, how about: 

Horrifically depressed voice. "I suppose you want me to calculate the jump
parameters again. Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you give me
elementary calculations to do."

(Marvin from HHGttG) 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:43:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: AI ships and Darrians

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Nick Munn wrote:

> In my Traveller universe, sometime in the 1120s...
>

snip!
 
> I have an early version of this adventure typed up, anyone 
> interested?

Post it!!! YES!!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:51:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fencing and the Military (was: fencing styles)

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Mike Lee wrote:

> Many thanks to Commander X for reminding me about sabre fencing!  Can't
> believe I forgot that...
> 
>         Dueling with sabres came into vogue during the early 18th century,
> as most other sword types had fallen by the wayside due to the predominance
> of firearms, and cultural changes amid the aristocracy in general.  The
> sabre was a favored weapon of the cavalry, and was also worn by officers and
> NCO's as badges of rank.

This reminds me. Anyone interested in some of the GREATEST film fight
sequences of all time, bar none, run out and rent a copy of The Duellists.

Pre-Alien Ridley Scott film starring Keith Carradine and Harvey Kietel as
two napoleonic officers who fight what is esentially a 20 year long duel
(they keep getting interrupted, or fighting to a draw) They cover court
swords, mounted sabers, unmounted sabers (one of the most gruelling fight
scenes I've ever seen) pistols, Epees, light sabers...

A great movie! 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 13:51:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Fuel discussion

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:56:17 -0400
> From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>

>> Robert Flammang and Matt McLaughlin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can any chemistry buffs tell me what the products for a 1H1 + 1H1 fusion
>>>> reaction are?
>>>
>>>    1H1 + 1H1 -> 2H1 + positron + neutrino
>>
>> + about 1.4 MeV (IIRC)
>>

> I can't remember who (that's the problem with getting mail at work and
> at home) but someone wrote that Traveller PP use just straight H2 for
> fusion power...  if that is the case the waste products of such fusion
> produce refusionable materials.
> ie.
>      Fuse 1H1 to get 2H1
>      then fuse the remaining 2H1 giving you final products of
>      3He2 and a spare neutron.

> Does this seem logical, or is it already taken into account in current
> PP?

   I don't know about 3He2+n, but 4He2 + gammas will definitely work;
   even if 3He2+n yields energy, I suspect 4He2+gammas is more probable. 
   I believe that these secondary reactions are described in most
   accounts of the pp chain, so the summary is:
   	p+p+p+p -> 4He2 + e^+ + e^+ + \nu + \nu + \gamma's

   See Leonard Ericson's previous post where he says basically the same
   thing.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:36:16 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Newton owners?

At 04:27 PM 8/1/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>>I agree with Ethan, except for the 'ill-fated Newton' bit...the man
>>obviously hasn't tried a MP2000 ;-) I did...and now think my trusty 'ol
>>MP100 is a real dog :-(
>
>Which reminds me - how many people on this list own Newtons and would be
>interested in Traveller software written for them? No, I haven't written
>any yet (I don't own a Newton yet), but I have been thinking about getting
>one and the developers kit. Any interest?

I own one, like it a great deal, and would be interested in such software.

I am using a 120 with the 2.0 OS, and will upgrade when a version comes out
with back lighting, a faster processor, and a price tag of under $500.  I
may budge a bit if they add voice recognition.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:42:46 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

At 10:59 PM 7/31/97 -0500, Joseph Deitrich wrote:
>As a person who works in pre-production for publishing, I wanted to throw
>two questions and two comments in from the lurker's sidelines ...
....
>A question: Are there no original manuscripts?

I certainly hope at least some of them survived.  I can see not all doing
so, as once they are done, you can work from the films, the final copies,
and so on.  Further, much of this was old and out of print when GDW sank
under the waves, so some valuable things might have been lost.

....

>Much of Traveller was published before modern desktop publishing, so what
>did the typesetters work off of? A typewritten, double-spaced manuscript is
>*much* easier to OCR than a published work set in 8-11 pt. Helvetica.

Agreed.

>Which brings up the second question: What exactly do people want from this
>project?

I want the information.  Drawings are nice, but I can produce better sector
maps with my own mappers than those in the aliens modules (my opinion only,
of course), and I would profit more from being able to search the various
GDW items.  Just having a massive rumors collection would help my games along.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:17:06 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Re Fencing

>On a more serious note:  At higher TL's wouldn't it be likely that
>swords of all sorts would be made of the best material around, as
>opposed to plain ol' steel?  What would a superdense claymore do
>compared to a steel one?

Weigh too much for the volume...

to get the effects of a greatsword/2hand claymore, it would be thinner, and
thus no better resistance, probably slightly more flimsy, and all in all,
no better, in order to be wielded as a claymore is wielded. OTOH, a man in
battledress (Augmented, for you T4ites), wielding a full SIZE claymore,
made of superdense, would probably be doing nearly 2-3x the damage, and cut
men up like butter... starting to make me think of Warhammer 40K....

> And at what TL do we get the rapier that cuts
>effortlessly though metal and stone?  12? 13?

I'd put it around TL 17, where I put "Lightsabres" (field generated
magneto-gravitic-handwavamagic bottle and hot plasma)

The very Light, incredibly flexible without being limp, cross pattern (3-
or 4- edges) foil, I'd put at about TL 13, with increased PEN, but not
damage, with a blade design that flakes so as to resharpen the edge when it
flakes... In one campaign, I allowed a player a foil that was actually a
mesh, with overlapping micro-scales that did just that... Incresed Pen by
2, damage by 1, but a crit fail resulted in nastiness to self.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:17:01 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Meson Guns and MT

>
>William,
>
>> It is also covered in MT. Player's manual has stats for all covered ship
>> weapons, except meson guns and disintigrators (i've got a fix for that,
>
>For MGs, doesn't it say something like, 'if you're in the blast radius,
>you're dead'?
>______________________________________________________________________
>Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

Yes, it does. And fails to give the burst radius. I have the burst radii
(from striker I).. M= Values from the USP factor as radius or diameter (I'm
not gonna look it up right now...); I did notice, though, that many ships
would be much larger than the 10 to 36m radii, and thus, would bbe capable
of taking the damage incurred. What I have done is rationalize MG's into
the MT Personal/Vehicular combat system by assuming base damage at "roll
made by 1+", and actual full bracketing at the "made by 8+" level, and
figuring said (full bracketing) damage is enough to destroy a craft of same
volume. Since MG's need no pen, they are assumed to always have a flat x1
from penetration. Disintigrators, BTW, would do approxamately double a MG
of same burst radius, IMHO. A simple, elegant, easy fix (although the maths
get interesting).

Full bracketing means putting aS much of your MG "Fireball" inside the
target as you possibly can.

BTW, source for SHips missiles being 15cm is _Special Supplement 3:
Missiles in Traveller_. 15cm x 100cm... I should use the 15cm warhead
values from MT Ref's manual.. but they only list even cm measurements, so
use a 14cm HEAP autocannon round for damage and Pen, with no atten, and use
special supp 3 to design and fly missiles.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:12:35 -0700
From: "Brad Urwiller" <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: [none]

Sorry,  Been real busy with classes.=20
(Calculus during a Summer session is NOT a
good idea). =20
Have I missed any good Threads?  Anyone Seen
FFS?
 _
 \\=20
)=3DO-8>  "Nevermore!" quoth the ravyn and
nothing more...
 //
 =AF

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:17:11 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Sale of Used Ships

>   Does anyone have a rule out
>there for how much a used ship would be worth (I tried looking for a
>rule on wear and tear in FF&S in order to determine how much that ship
>would be worth but I can't find anything

I use the following:

        (Origional Price/20)*(10-Wear Value).

Thus, you lose 50% just for taking it out of the yards. Truly, tho' this is
a base for negotiation, not a fixed final price. Roll on the Actual value
table, using the above formula to derive base value.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: 01 Aug 1997 19:48:37 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Ship vs Vehicle

>>Is there any *canonical* guideline on using ship 
>>weapons as AP or anti-tank weaponry.
>
>It's well covered in TNE...not that that does you much good.
     
It is also covered in MT. Player's manual has stats for all covered ship 
weapons, except meson guns and disintigrators (i've got a fix for that, 
will post once I triple check my maths while not in pain) and missiles, in 
the same formats as personal and support weapons. (Actually, for missiles, 
but I just use the stats from COACC).
     
William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>
     
     Look forward to seeing the fix on mesons and disintigrators.  BTW, anyone 
     else feel some of the hi tech weapons (e.g. disintigrators) are not that 
     scary in the MT starship design rules?  Still, the psychological effect of 
     a disintigrator or anti-
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In a message dated 97-08-01 07:12:57 EDT, you write:

<<  Aren't computers at TL16 semi-sentient and sentient by TL17?  >>

They can be. Mine have a small switch (like the Turbo switch on a PC)
labelled Sentient / Not. 

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:20:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Newton owners?

Jason Anderson wrote:

>Which reminds me - how many people on this list own Newtons and would be
>interested in Traveller software written for them? No, I haven't written
>any yet (I don't own a Newton yet), but I have been thinking about getting
>one and the developers kit. Any interest?

No, can't afford one :-( but if you ever want to write something for a
Psion series 3...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:37:40 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Why Psionics was Suppressed

Boy, the folks that wrote the Library Data sure did try to think ahead.

Stumbled over the following;

- ---Quoted Material Follows---
 CRISIS OF '99

   Albert Croale, in his book Almost Disaster presents a hypothesis that
   the Third Frontier War (979 to 986) occurred two centuries too late.
   After reviewing the progress of events in the spinward reaches of the
   Imperium from the antebellum period to the late seventh century,
   Croale then analyses the rise of the Psionics Institutes, their
   growing public acceptance, and their spreading power. Finally, he
   presents that a straight projection of events would predict a
   resurgence of the Outworld Coalition, increased hostilities, and a
   Third Frontier War.

   Instead, his hypothesis as stated in his book indicates that the
   Psionic Suppressions (800 to 826 and beyond) were a massive
   manipulation of the population of the Imperium, a form of
   psychohistory, intended to eliminate the power of the institutes.

   Preparations were ongoing for war, and the Imperium made
   representations of strength (in 799) to the Coalition. It backed down.

   But the pyschohistory project went wrong and resulted in widespread
   rejection of psionics as a whole within the Imperium to the point that
   even the government had difficulty in using the science of psionics
   for its official purposes.
   ----End Quoted Material---*

So the Institutes were not only public, but had "Power" until 799 at least.
Then, in a propaganda campaign that reminds me of a Tom Clancy plot line,
The Institutes quite suddenly became evil.

Can you say Hivers? or Elvis?  I wonder preciisely which Imperial organs
were behind this, if not all.  Or was Croale the lunatic conspiracy
theorist of his time?  Perhaps this is all speculative fiction rather than
fact, and the supressions were just a matter of time and circumstance.

The truth is out there...

*This material is quoted under the "Fair Use Act" and is not intended to
violate or challenge any copyrights.  There, that should seem honest.

Pete




Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 13:46:13 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp Universe

>stutterwarp / jump universe, as I find no problem with the T2300 / FF&S
>stutterwarp in a Traveller universe where Jump drives reign supreme <dons
>flame proof TL16 Battle Dress from RoM to protect himself from followers of
>"true" canon).

They'll have to come after me too.  

In the games I'm running a modified T2300/FFS1 stutterwarp has been
transformed into stutter*jump*, and is the technology used for in-system
travel.  I use (almost) regular jump drive for FTL travel.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:06:06 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Safari ship

CT Adventure 10 "Safari Ship".  It has plans and nice clean pictures.  He He, I have 2.
								 John
____________

I am trying to find the stats of the safari ship (I really like that
ship, I think it has one of the coolest deck plan).  Does anyone know
where I can get it?

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 14:24:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

On 08/01/97 at 08:44 AM,  Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com> said:

>In fact, I suggest you choose *which weapon* before thinking about styles. 
> Fencing with an pe is different from fencing with, say, a foil. 
>Different  weapons have different lengths, which makes a *big* difference. 
>Also, in  modern (1990's) fencing, different weapons are allowed to strike
>different  parts of the body when scoring.  (This may be redundant if you
>want people to  fight to the death rather than for points, unless your
>Nobles really are very  noble.)

There's a point about Dueling that no one has made yet, in many cultures
duels often weren't "to the death", but "to first blood", or even the
"first clash of blades."  The Duel's *purpose* also differed, but was
usually to satisfy the "honor" and test the character of the participants.. 
Putting yourself into a position where you *could* be killed was often
considered enough, and how well you reacted to the situation was more
important than how well you fought.  (Sir Leo was brave and unflinching,
even though he was facing a much more skilled opponent. For his part, Lord
Calvert disappointed us all by continuing to punish his opponent after it
was obvious to all that he was superior in skill.)

Somebody mentioned yesterday that in pistol duels the participants kept
reloading and firing until somebody was dead.  Not always! Sometimes it was
enough for each participant to fire a shot, and that was often into the
air.  (I might be remembering wrong, but didn't Alexander Hamilton fire
into the air, and instead of following suit Aaron Burr shot him dead? 
Isn't that part of the reason Burr was considered such a villain
afterwards?)

Duelists that *always* insisted on "duels to the death", depending on
culture, could be considered heros or villains.  I'm reminded of the film
"The Duelist", where one character fought one duel after another against
another character until eventually, after several years of dueling, one of
them was killed.  BTW, the final duel in that movie was quite
interesting..it was basically you take some guns and I'll take some guns
and we'll stalk each other through the woods with no rules except we don't
stop until somebody dies.

Given the size and diversity of the Imperium (or the splintered environment
of my games), not only would fencing styles differ, so would dueling rules
and etiquette.  The PC better understand the local rules before making (or
accepting) a challenge, or she might find herself in an untentible
situation.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1638
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 1 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1639



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

House Rules: Starports
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
RE: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: House Rules : Hacking the Grid
RE: Used ships
Re: House Rules : Starport Size
Re: AI ships and Darrians
Re: House Rules : Starport Size
Re: Ship Noises
Pentium Powered Starships
Re: Auction Update #04: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)
Disintegrators
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Fusion vs. chemistry
Re: More Pocket Empires
RE: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1634

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:23:10 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: House Rules: Starports

From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: House Rules : Starport Size

Starport Size Rating =
Base: the value of starports on populated worlds within 2 parsecs x 0.33 

A	6
B	4.5
C	3
D	2
E	1
X	0 

The reasonng for the above is the fact that being a neighbour of France and
Germany is more valuable than being in the heart of Africa with loads of
neighbours who have no money (and no economy)
And who would you rather have as a neighbour: Singapore (equivalent of Class
A port) or The Central African Republic? (equivalent of Class X)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 15:22:16 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to create some deckplans for my newly designed yacht.
> All I have to work with is Visio.
> 
> Does anyone out there have a Visio template for deckplans already
> built? If not, does anyone have better (free) software for doing
> these plans?

After my previous response, I checked to see if a later version of
gammacad is available, since the older version crashes under w95.  I
found it at

	http://nic.zcu.cz/ftp/pub/win/simtelnet/win95/cad/

The filename is gc95p300.zip.  One nice thing is it exports .dxf format.
I'll get it on my page when I get a chance ... :P

Matt McL
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:16:28 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Visio?

I've been toying around with Visio for a while now.  Currently I'm
working on a labship and it's modular cutter's deckplans.  Visio is
pretty nice once you get the process of making your own symbols (It took
me four tries to make a decent Iris valve).

Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ? 

Also, on a more acceptable general topic, which way should the seams
curve on an Iris hatch-I use Convex clockwise. (like this:
						\ ) /
						^ . v
						/ ( \
How big should a bed icon be in T4 deck squares?( 2m ea)

And I still have problems getting all of the equipment to fit into the
deckplan... The main problem is the empty common space isn't really
allowed for/accounted for in the volume calculations.  Do I take a
portion of each item (stateroom, laboratory, workstation, sensor suite,
fusion powerplant, jump drive, etc) and "donate" it towards the common
areas.

((that actually would work... if I do the rough outline of the ship
decks and block off areas for a purpose, like a stateroom or reactor...
hmm)

I know all of this will be answered with the NAH, but I want to map my
Lab ship now! <g>

Luck,

Jeffrey

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:33:07 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: House Rules : Hacking the Grid

>[I apologise if these are reposts;  I wasn't yet subscribed,
>so I'm unsure if they made it. -R]

I haven't seen it, and I'd be looking for such things.

>Here is a house rule I am toying with to allow players
>to hack a world computer network, using the basic ideas
>from Shadowrun with Traveller concepts.

[big snip of some good ideas]

For hacking, I finally gave the following caveats;

To break into a computer system a character needs Intrusion as an enabling
skill.  Add 1 for each level of intrusion above 2 (using MT skill levels).

Tasks apon intruding were also skill related or enabled.  We found Admin
especially appropriate (Thought you'd never need that skill, right?), but
also Forgery, Electronics, et al.  A rule of thumb is that just because you
can hack into a computer, doesn't mean you know how the organization does
business.

A character also needs at least a 2 in computer, and that's a minimum.

The relative tech level of the character and his equipment makes a big
difference.  In the end, I thought that a TL14 hacker (deck and skill)
should be able to "walk all over" a TL9- system assuming it is networked.
Of course, at that TL hacking into computers is much less useful than at
say TL12+.

Note that this means major corporations and gov'ts on low tech worlds will
buy higher tech systems to protect their data, if they can afford it.

Hacker TL is the TL that the Computer Skill was earned at (Impy military
would use 14 or 15).

Computer TL is the TL the computer and software was manufactured at.

So;
For each TL difference between (lower of hacker or computer TL) and the
attacked system's TL give a DM to the task; + if hacker TL is higher, - if
lower, 0 if the same.

example;
Donny Claptrap is a hot hacker with a TL13 deck (computer) from a TL14
world.  He wants to hack the Navy Base Inventory computer (TL15, of
course).  He is hacking at TL13 (the computer's TL since its lower) so he
gets a -2 for *all* tasks.  He better have a good skill level.

Also, for each TL higher than the character his equipment is, DM -1.  This
doesn't apply to a hacker using lower tech equipment "Keyboard, How quaint."

I would also suggest looking for the Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. rulebook, which has
pretty good rules, although it requires significant prep work.  Also the
Collectible Card Game Netrunner is adaptable to Traveller if you have
enough cards, and I have even written up some rules for adapting it if you
are interested.  email me privately if you are since its a long MS word
file and it has been posted before.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
brenton@psfc.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:09:51 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Used ships

TNE rules: divide the NEW price by the WEAR number (1=NEW, 9=kr@p, 0=Parts)

__________________
 One of my player ended up with a used merchant ship in the character 
generation.  He wants to sell it (another character has a ship and it 
would be stupid to have more than one).  Does anyone have a rule out 
there for how much a used ship would be worth (I tried looking for a rule 
on wear and tear in FF&S in order to determine how much that ship would 
be worth but I can't find anything (there should be an index to that 
great - but painful to search through - book)).  On the other hand, if 
anybody has a rule out there for purchasing (or selling) a used ship, I'd 
be happy to have it.  Thanks.
     
     Hi Daniel,
     
     How much is a second hand car?  I think you'll find a lot of difference 
     between what people will pay for the same vehicle.  When you then add 
     different locations (planets) into the question ...
     
     Surely this is an ideal opportunity for your players to meet an 
     interesting character ... the 'used spaceship salesperson'?  "Wanna buy 
     a ship?  Good condition, one careful owner, bargain price.  Best Type S 
     this side of the Claw."  This could be a lot of fun!
     
     I urge to not to go with a mathematical formula!
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:59:27 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: House Rules : Starport Size

>Here is a house rule I am toying with to determine the size
>order-of-magnitude of a starport.  This helps me decide what
>kind of facilities (or what grade or how much) are present
>there.

I like this a lot.  As a house rule, that is, not a "real" rule.

>Starport Size Rating =
>	floor(The number of populated worlds within 2 parsecs / 3)
>        + (Starport Class: A=+2, B=+1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2)
>      	+ floor(Tech Level / 4)
>	+ 2 if there is a Naval Base.

Missing Factors as I see it;
  Presence of Non-Navy base (scout base, scout way station, etc.)
  Planet is on an X-boat route
  Planet has a high population
  Planet is not an Imperial client (negative modifier for non-Imperial
planets or planets not members of an interstellar empire of some sort).

The problem is, one factor doubles the size of the starport, and I don't
think these factors (except perhaps population) would double the size, only
increase it incrementally.

>Interpretation
>--------------
>A size rating is a relation to other size ratings by a factor of 2.
>Thus, a size 3 starport is twice the size of a size 2 starport, and
>a size 5 starport is eight times the size of a size 2 starport.  Wow!

Ok, but what is the actual size of the smallest starport?  At what point is
the starport orbital, and what is the tonnage of the orbital component?

We need acreage here! or tonnage!

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 17:27:46 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: AI ships and Darrians

************************************
In my Traveller universe, sometime in the 1120s...

...there's a heavily damaged Kinunir-class ship from the Battle of 
the Two Suns still floating near the battlefield.  In the adventure I 
wrote, the PCs were looking for weapons to outfit a privateer to 
operate against the Vargr.  A rumour (or more accurately a covert 
DINI agent who's supporting the project unofficially) sent the 
PCs to the old battlefield, dodging unexploded ordnance and Imperial 
patrols, and eventually they found the ship.

To cut a long story short, the AI Yellow Streak blew the ship up out 
of sheer cowardice, then suffered severe remorse over the next forty 
years as it drifted, crippled, crew dead.  When the PCs find it it's 
a reformed character, desperate to prove itself, but doesn't bother 
to tell the PCs that it was responsible for the damage to the ship.
It calls itself "Blue Streak" to the PCs' faces...

I have an early version of this adventure typed up, anyone 
interested?


Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
************************************

Interested?......who me?......Of course!  Post (or send) that puppy!!

(Yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaa---thats my "adventure library" getting ready to
accept a new member)

I look forward to it.

Thanks

TT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 15:10:30 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: House Rules : Starport Size

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Here is a house rule I am toying with to determine the size
> order-of-magnitude of a starport.  This helps me decide what
> kind of facilities (or what grade or how much) are present
> there.
> 
> Starport Size Rating =
>         floor(The number of populated worlds within 2 parsecs / 3)
>         + (Starport Class: A=+2, B=+1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2)
>         + floor(Tech Level / 4)
>         + 2 if there is a Naval Base.
> 
> Interpretation
> --------------
> A size rating is a relation to other size ratings by a factor of 2.
> Thus, a size 3 starport is twice the size of a size 2 starport, and
> a size 5 starport is eight times the size of a size 2 starport.  Wow!

My Comments:

You're using the populated world factor as a rough measure of the amount
of trade, yes? If that's the case, perhaps you should factor in the
population of *non interdicted* worlds within 2 parsecs.

The population of the world the starport is on should be a *very*
important factor. No way a backwater world with a few hundred sentients
has a large starport just because a bunch of worlds happen to be nearby.

I'm not sure that a tech level factor makes sense. It seems to me that
higher tech planets would use more miniturization. If you're assuming
that higher tech means more trade and therefore more "floor space", then
the TL of nearby worlds should be important too... messy.

Also, trade codes (In, Po, Ri, etc.) might play some factor, since they
signify something special about the world that makes goods cheaper
(desirable to buy to sell elsewhere) or more expensive (desirable to
sell on the world), therefore generating more trade, and need for
warehouse space.

Here's my rough suggestion: (not "reality-checked" just of the top of
the ol' noggin')

Starport Size Rating =
    Population Digit - 5
  + (Starport Class: A=+3, B=+2, C=0, D=-2, E=-5)
  + (Sum of pop digits within 1 pc) /  4 (round down)
  + (Sum of pop digits within 2 pc) / 10 (round down)
  + Number of Trade Classifications
  + 2 if there is a Naval Base.

Less than zero rounds to 1. (Patch of bedrock size of a football field,
with a shack on the side functioning as a control tower... :)

I don't have my books with me to do some checks and see if the formula
is reasonable, I'll do so later. (This thread intrigues me...)

This Rating might give a wider range than yours, so one might want to
say that each difference in Rating is a x1.5, instead of x2.

Just some ideas.

- -- Glenn Hoppe 

PS. Remember that a world could easily have more than one starport. A
populated world could have several major ones scattered across the
globe. World Builders' Handbook gave rules for this, iirc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 17:26:08 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

>It's too easy to control vermin on shipboard. Since all the "permanent"
>fixtures have to be able to withstand exposure to vacuum (in case of
>damage to the ship), that means that you can simply take out and
>clean/fumigate the movable stuff and the things like curtains and
>blankets, and de-pressurize the section you took them from. It'd take
>some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of vacuum.

But that's what all those *iddy biddy* ROM TL 19 nano vacc suits are for.


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 17:56:02 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Pentium Powered Starships

A Pentium 200 with or without the floating point error? :)

This is problematic depending on how difficult you imagine jump
astrogation to be mathematically.  The most difficult numerical
analysis problems today absolutely require supercomputers, for
speed and in some cases, parallelism, to effectively solve certain
problems (within a reasonable period of time).

If jump transitions are highly stable and predictable, they could 
be initiated by systems running fixed routines calibrated.  If 
jumpspace is an Ancients artifact, this could be the case.  I 
doubt it.  I expect jump physics and engiuneering will be "new" 
physics that will grow out of quantum gravitation, much as 
quantum mechnaics and relativity grew out of classical 
thermodynamics, mechanics, and electromagnetism.

Astrogation computers will need to be able to:

1) Rapidly measure and compensate for local conditions
2) Reference or directly measure destination conditions
3) Control jump drive power up, field initiation, and 	
4) Establish a local jump field (false vacuum?, hyperspace?)
5) Compensate for the effects of transition so that the jump field 
does not collapse prematurely

If calculations are required roughly one for each atom of a ship, steps 
1 and 2 could involve 10exp(30) calculations for a 100 ton ship in a 
very short period of time (say plank time).  That's faster than a 
pentium, even with the floating point error.


- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 17:32:52 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Auction Update #04: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

At 07:18 AM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Martian 
>Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
>        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
>        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
>        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
>        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
>        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
>        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
>        total of 228 painted figures.)
>        $100.00 bsanders@amghome.com
>        $ 85.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        $ 85.00 clark@bessemer.com
>        $ 80.00 nimrod@dfw.net

I bid $125.00

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:28:58 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Disintegrators

Guys,

Only an IDIOT would use disintegrators, as described in Traveller,
in close combat.  They work (ostensibly) by neutralizing, that is 
NEGATING, the strong nuclear force between nucleons (not the true 
gluon-gluon force of which the "strong" nuclear force is but a 
residue).

The result of disintegrator use SHOULD be the catatrophic nuclear
detonation of the target, not just a Star Trek "warm white glow"
accompanied by a hissing sound.  Sorry, but imagine all the material
in a body becominging fissionable and unstable and supercritical in
a nanosecond.  

The operative word is "BANG!"

One's lasting contribution would be a very big hole in the local
geography which plate tectonics might erase after a few million years.
Quite a grave marker.

So then, those handy disintegrators the Ancients seem to use must be
in actuatity very advanced models which allow their targets to 
fission away at a controllable, not catastrophic rate without the
Chernobyl/TMI/Tunguska effects.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:53:11 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
[big snip of ship's-computer voices...]

> Beavis&Butthead.  PC: "Computer, Get us off this rock!"  Computer: "
> Huu-hu-hu.. you said "get off".. huhuhuhu.."
> 
> Next?

Jimmy Stewart: [breathless excitement] "Well, I'll be!  It's a-a-a Vargr
  Corsair -- they're probably here to k-kill us!  Isn't that just grand?!" 

Carl Sagan: "There are billions and billions of stars in this vast spiral
  we call the Milky Way, stretching over 100,000 light-years, each one a
  brilliant sun, many with planets.  To be more specific, that one below us
  is Quopist." 

George Carlin: "Have you ever noticed how you *drive* a grav-car, which
  *flies*, but you *fly* a spacecraft, with *drives*?"

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:12:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:17:01 +0100 (BST)
> From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
> 
> Peter Brenton sent: 
> 
[Setup of relic Darrian AI ship snipped]
> They got on board, started chatting to the ship, and then began to make 
> decisions on her future all the whilst ignoring her prescence. When they 
> made up their minds and gave her the orders she refused, stating that she 
> was a Leutenant Commander in the Darrian Navy, and as the last surviving 
> officer on the ship she'd be the final decision maker.
[much more coolness snipped]

That's great!  I'm reminded of a scene in Iain Banks' "The Player of
Games," which I forcefully recommend (along with all his other stuff,
especially "Consider Phlebas" and "Use of Weapons") to all Trav people, SF
fans, and admirers of simply brilliant writing and plotting.  This is not
a spoiler, btw.

A representative of the Culture (very-high-tech sort-of-good-guys) is
speaking with an inhabitant of a lower-tech society.  The latter proposes
something you could accomplish using a high-tech starship, and the Culture
rep explains that first you'd have to convince the ship to cooperate,
which wouldn't be likely to work.  The low-techer is flabbergasted.  "Your
starships think they are sentient???" he demands.  The Culture rep simply
replies, "A delusion shared by many of our human citizens." :)

I also join others in recommending Banks' work as a source for the best
starship names ever seen in SF.  Favorite examples:  A 50-km intergalactic
starship with 250 million crew/residents named "So Much for Subtlety," and
a civilian craft converted for combat named "No More Mr. Nice Guy."
"Gunboat Diplomat" is also rather nice.  There are many *many* others.
READ HIS BOOKS.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Fusion vs. chemistry

> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:11:19 +0100
> From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1634
> 
[I had written]
> >Ask a *chemistry* buff, and the answer is H2 -- diatomic hydrogen,
> >the usual state of hydrogen at lowish temperatures and pressures.
> 
> Which would be wrong, as the chemistry buff would know - that isn't
> fusion.

The original poster never specified fusion.  He asked "all you chemistry
buffs" what happens when you combine two hydrogen atoms.  The *chemist's*
answer is what I gave above.  I went on to give the *physicist's* (fusion)
answer in that same post.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:22:23 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: More Pocket Empires

At 11:24 PM 7/30/97 +0000, Bruce E J Lewis wrote:
><snip>
>1. In Pocket Empires, Special Weapons DM's start at TL 7, i.e. 1970-1979.
>Special Weapons in PE are things like biological weapons, planet busters
>etc. However, I would have thought that the effectiveness of special
>weapons is relative to the time / TL period. For example, American Indians
>were supplied by their enemy with blankets that had been saturated with
>germs / diseases that they had no immunity to. This era would be around TL 3.
>
><snip>
>
>Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
>
>

I would think you had to understand how germs worked before you could use it
as a weapon. The contaminated blankets were a case of well intentioned
ignorance (like most of the fatal interactions of European & Native
American) more than application of weapons. Most medical practitioners of
the time still did not believe the germ theory. That is why Eastern towns
would still have outbreaks of cholera & dysentery. 

You need enough of a tech level to understand the source and transmission
mechanism of disease before you can use it as a weapon. Would consider a 6
for a 5 tech level, due to chemical means like Chlorine & such, but nothing
much before that.

Garry

  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:20:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Visio?

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Jeff Cornish wrote:

> I've been toying around with Visio for a while now.  Currently I'm
> working on a labship and it's modular cutter's deckplans.  Visio is
> pretty nice once you get the process of making your own symbols (It took
> me four tries to make a decent Iris valve).
> 
> Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
> many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ? 

Well, I use Zane Healy's MacDraw symbols (available from his web page and
mine) with MacDraw Pro.

> And I still have problems getting all of the equipment to fit into the
> deckplan... The main problem is the empty common space isn't really
> allowed for/accounted for in the volume calculations.  Do I take a
> portion of each item (stateroom, laboratory, workstation, sensor suite,
> fusion powerplant, jump drive, etc) and "donate" it towards the common
> areas.

Actually, I've seen in several places that 'common' areas, such as halls,
dining rooms, etc, are carved out of the stated systems volumes, ie: A
stateroom listed at 4Td doesn't use all of it...some is part of the common
area allotment.
 
> ((that actually would work... if I do the rough outline of the ship
> decks and block off areas for a purpose, like a stateroom or reactor...
> hmm)

That's how I did the layouts for my YugoShips designs on my web pages.
Then with the block diagrams in hand I did the final layouts, adding the
details and carving out the common areas out the the leftover spaces.

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:19:20 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

Matt McLaughlin wrote:
> 
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> [snip]
> > Does anyone out there have a Visio template for deckplans already
> > built? If not, does anyone have better (free) software for doing
> > these plans?
> I've got a copy of a shareware CAD program with some deckplans and a few
> templates on my web page.  Not as easy as Visio, but . . .

Thanks. I downloaded the templates and the program and will try them
out. By the way, the individual symbol files don't appear to be 
there, but the self-extracting ZIP is okay.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 20:48:27 -0400
From: John M Gardner <gardclan@erie.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1634

>What would a superdense claymore do
>compared to a steel one?  And at what TL do we get the rapier that cuts
>effortlessly though metal and stone?  12? 13?

A superdense claymore would tend to do one thing... not break!  Harder
and tougher materials may be able to hold an edge better, but it still
takes a LOAD of force to drive a cutting surface through metal or
stone.  
(whirring and clicking as I switch to gearhead mode)

Acording to Kalpakigian's engineer's handbook,  the specific energy
required to cut through just plain ole steel is around 5 Joules per
cubic milimeter.  This means that you need roughly five (actually
between 2.7 and 9.3, depending on the alloy) joules of energy per cubic
milimeter removed (or sliced through) in the cut.  Assuming that the
average SMALL claymore is around one meter long (rough guess) and that
the cut passes through a SHALLOW path of about 50 cm... and the blade is
roughly 1.5 cm wide... a cut of roughly 75,000 cubic milimeters of
material are displaced.  You need a third of a MegaJoule to acomplish
this.  (this is ignoring friction btw.)  Machines get away with it by
applying the energy slowly (less power requred).  A swing applies all of
its force at once.

I would probably apply some benefits to the material (doesn't rust,
break, or go dull).  But I don't think that any NORMAL character will
ever cut through any hard material in this fashion.  (Cyborgs and other
odd technological oddities might make up for this though.)  

(Whirr... click...)

Sorry, must be the summer break... all those engineering classes have an
odd effect on those of  us who must put more important persuits (like
games) for the sake of classes.

- ---John


- -- 
A chicken is just an egg's way of producing more eggs.
- ---Unknown

No matter where you go, there you are.
- ---Eienstien

Any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties in order
to gain security, shall have neither
- ---Benjamin Franklin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1639
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 2 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1640



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Safari ship
Safari Ship Stats Located in...
Brilliant Lances: Panel
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1637
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: AI
RE: Deckplans and Visio?
MT Referee's Kit
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1632
Imperium Games Scenario Competition
Re: Stutterwarp Universe
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Deep Space
Re: Traveller CD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 21:39:13 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Safari ship

John Toth wrote:

> CT Adventure 10 "Safari Ship".  It has plans and nice clean pictures.
> He He, I have 2.
>                                                                  John
> ____________
>
> I am trying to find the stats of the safari ship (I really like that
> ship, I think it has one of the coolest deck plan).  Does anyone know
> where I can get it?
>
> Daniel Poulin
> pould@netcom.ca


No, I already have that one.  I want the stats in TNE (FF&S).

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:29:07 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Safari Ship Stats Located in...

>Date: 01 Aug 1997 09:07:37 +0100
>From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
>Subject: Re: Safari ship
>
>I am trying to find the stats of the safari ship (I really like that
>ship, I think it has one of the coolest deck plan).  Does anyone know
>where I can get it?

MT Imperial Encyclopaedia, CT Supp 4 Citizens.

Curiously NOT in Spinward Marches Campaign, which includes the other ships
fro CT Supp 4.

from Citizens, paraphrased:
        Type K. 200 tons, 1g constant accell system. 11 Staterooms, crew of
6 (dbl occ) and eight passengers. Crew Pilot, Engr, steward, medic, gunner,
guide.model 1/bis computer, 50 tons fuel, 2 tons cargo, 1 HP w/1 ton for FC
and double turret (no wpns). Air/raft and Lifeboat. Two caging areas: 1st
is 10 tons, sealed environmental system for any needed atmosphere; 2nd is
13 tons marine caging area. 10 ton trophy room.
        Cr69,307,000

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 00:00:32 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Brilliant Lances: Panel

I am at reading Brilliant Lances and I notice that it would have been a
great idea to publish (or post on some web site) a copy of the
Spacecraft Control Panel found in the game for each ship.  What I mean
by that is that someone (who is better at computer than I am) should
actually produce a computerized version of the panel so that we can fill
it and print it directly without having to fill it by hand in the first
place.  Not only would it be cleaner, but it would also make things
easier to use them.  What do people think?

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 23:40:20 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1637

Traveller-digest wrote:

> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:08:26 -0400 (EDT)
> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
>
> In a message dated 97-07-31 08:12:52 EDT, Simon Early wrote:
>
> << In my opinion, ship's computers in Traveller are not too large - I
> used to
>
>  think they were until I went on site to my first chemical plant (I'm
> a
>  chemical engineer).  The size of computers for chemical plant control
> has
>  not reduced significantly in the last 15 years.  Let us look at the
> latest
>  in high-tech control:
>   >>
>
> The alternative is (since a Pentium 200 could probably handle the
> processing
> needs of a typical starship) is to just have a Pentium 200 plugged in
> at the
> pilot's control couch. Well, maybe we would need two (one for the
> navigator).
> And I suppose they should be networked, so we'll need a server. And a
> backup.
> I wonder if they should be hardened against EMP? Then we'll need
> spares in
> case something fails.
>
> I suppose Engineering could get along with a dumb terminal that
> accessed the
> network whenever the load isn't too great.
>
> And we could really save space by building it all into the walls. So
> if the
> hard drive crashed, just open this little book and look up where it
> is...
> down by the fresher at bulkhead 13, third panel from the left.
>
>  Etc.
>

Marc, Simon,

I totally agree with Simon's evaluation of the likely size of computers
in starships. The refinery I work in a a moderate size 150,000 - 170,000
barrels of crude through put. It is run (under minimal, as I 'll discuss
in a couple of lines, human control) by a Hewlett/Packard TDC 3000 DCS
system, very simulair to the on e Simon discribed in hs post. In our
case the DCS operates everything from The boilers to the motor operated
valves, including power distribution from 2 steam powered 15 megawatt
generators and a 30 meg gas poweredd generator. The DCS system is housed
in a climate controlled room, with about 10-15 satellite buildings
(houseing slave processors to the Primary DCS, our refinery covers 80
acres so signal loss and tielag are a factor even with fiber optics).
Human control of the refinery is taken care of by a minimuim (night
crew) of 7 Console supervisors each running a multi-screen display that
represents the unit(s) under their direct control, there are also 1-4
unit operators at each unit to preform non automated tasks, contacted by
radio. During the day shift there is also a staff of approximately 10
programers and 3 technicians that work to keep everything operating
smoothly.

So I again say a that I don't disagree with the size of the computers. I
DO disagree with the flexability as stated in the rules! When operating
in Advanced Controls, the TDC 3000 we are using will make minute
corrections to the operations of each of those units (ie temperature
adjustments to boilers, flow corrections, blending regulation, etc.) to
maintain product specification at maximuim effecency. This (in effect)
one system working through multiple teminals. Yet in Traveller (T4, book
1) , your required  to install seperated software for each ship's
battery, or use a single copy of the software per battery per turn.

Also my comments were aimed more at the CT version, (which I am more
familiar with) which had only one PROGRAM operable at one time! and at
(if my calculations are correct) even larger volume per computer.

This has always led me to treat the computers in Traveller as "dumb
calculators". Since reading some of the posts to the TML, in spacific
the Darrians and AI, I see that I have been in the minority. Many of
these posts have made me rethink my position adn future adventures will
reflect a more flexible computing system. However, I would still like to
see an expansion set based around computers, their operations and
capabilities, not only for ships but for world nets etc. The CSC seems
to have some advanced rules for personal computeing but these do not
cover the networks.

Thanks
Mike Peters

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 23:03:57 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

>> Erwin Fritz wrote:

>> > Does anyone out there have a Visio template for deckplans already
>> > built? If not, does anyone have better (free) software for doing
>> > these plans?

I've created a Visio 4.0 template for some some common rooms and fixtures
that would be on deckplans. It's almost 500k, so I won't send it to the
list, but if anybody wants a copy let me know.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:30:47 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: AI

Evyn MacDude (wmacdude@concentric.net) posts:
>I have always included AI ships in my games, it allowed allowed more
>GM interaction with the players. But, I allowed Ai ships long before
>TNE.

In my first Traveller campaign the starships also had AI computers and ran
themselves. In fact, many commercial and pleasure ships had no one on board
who knew how to run the ship; the crew handled passengers and cargo and the
captain ordered the ship what to do. Warships were completely automated and
couldn't even carry a single person. I was using the basic rules (not High
Guard) and in my campaign starships were used as a kind of expensive scene
change to simply move characters from place to place. AIs were also
powerful NPCs, with superhuman knowledge and intelligence.

In my current campaign there is no AI at all; ships carry large crews of
specialized personnel and people make all the business, combat, and
exploration decisions.

Why the change? Two reasons. First, I discovered that the established
Traveller rules did not have AIs and needed large starship crews. While I
regularly ignore rules I disagree with, I wanted to make my campaign
consistent with that of another GM's and I wanted to be able to use
published designs and adventures.

The second reason was that having powerful AIs tended to harm enjoyment of
the game. Since space combat (in my first campaign) was run by computers
and could be over in a fraction of a second, players were reduced to
sitting helplessly while their fates were determined by some die rolls.
This was very undramatic. AIs were very expensive, so wealthy governments
and corporations had an enormous advantage over individuals like the
players. In effect, AIs reduced the range of events the players could
contribute meaningfully to.

Also, with AIs running ships and institutions, players tended to simply ask
the computer about how to resolve problems. This was also counterproductive
to role-playing.

The answer, for me, was to severly reduce the capabilities of computers. In
my current campaign computers are powerful tools but starships,
corporations, and battles are all run by living beings.

The way I rationalize this in the game is to claim that intelligence and
creativity are noncomputable functions. As with the Halting problem, there
is no way a computer can even in theory replace a human (or whatever)
brain. Brains can do these noncomputable functions because of quantum
effects in biological cells, and any technological duplication of these
effects would result in a brain, not a computer, with all kinds of
nondeterministic behavior and idiosyncratic personalities. This is
basically the claim in Roger Penrose's "The Emperor's New Mind." Now I
realised than Penrose's theories are rather controversial, in fact I don't
believe them myself, but I can use them to put people into the dominant
role in my Traveller game.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 23:41:14 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Visio?

On 08/01/97 at 01:16 PM,  Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com> said:

>I've been toying around with Visio for a while now.  Currently I'm working
>on a labship and it's modular cutter's deckplans.  Visio is pretty nice
>once you get the process of making your own symbols (It took me four tries
>to make a decent Iris valve).

>Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
>many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ? 

I use various things (Visio, Some-kind-of-Cadd, Corel Draw), but end up
doing a lot of it by hand and then scanning the results in.

>How big should a bed icon be in T4 deck squares?( 2m ea)

That depends on the bed. ;-> I put "twin sized" beds (1x2m) in small cabins
and small staterooms, but they either fold up against the wall or are dual
purpose couch/bed futon-like things. In medium and large staterooms where
you are more likely to have 2/bed I install "queen sized" beds (1.5x2m).
Only in the large staterooms are these true beds, otherwise they are the
futon-like things.  

For PC sized ships, I use 1x1x3.5m (1/4ton) cubes for detailed plans, and
2x2x3.5m (1ton) cubes for summary plans. My scale for detailed plans is
200x1 (5mm to 1m), that gives you about 40x50m on a letter sized sheet of
paper.

>And I still have problems getting all of the equipment to fit into the
>deckplan... 

It *won't* fit! ;-> Just do the best you can.  

>The main problem is the empty common space isn't really allowed for/accounted for >in the volume calculations.  Do I take a portion of each item (stateroom, >laboratory, workstation, sensor suite, fusion powerplant, jump drive, etc) and >"donate" it towards the common areas.

Well, you're supposed to do that with staterooms, but not the rest, from my
understanding.  The stuff that goes on the bridge supplies the extra
walking around room there. The stuff that goes into engineering supplies
the working and walking room. Frankly, there just isn't enough room
alocated to living area, IMO, so I just add more.

>((that actually would work... if I do the rough outline of the ship decks
>and block off areas for a purpose, like a stateroom or reactor... hmm)

Actually, my prefered way of doing a ship is the draw the rough deckplan
showing the volumes of the living areas, engine rooms, bridge, cargo holes,
fuel tankage, etc, etc and then build a ship with a volume that will hold
it all.  I know that's backwards (start with the hull volume and stuff the
parts in), but it makes more sense to me to start with the parts and then
build a hull around them.

>I know all of this will be answered with the NAH, but I want to map my Lab
>ship now! <g>

We can only hope! ;-> That's one reason I've been dragging my feet on
deckplans. So when is NAH hitting the stores?  Heck! When is FFS/2 actually
going to be released?


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 01:20:33 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: MT Referee's Kit

Hi,

Just wondering; what exactly is this product, and what does it contain? 

Thanks,
- -- 

________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"Virtually anything mentioned in a story or article can be transferred
to the Traveller environment.  Orbital cities, nuclear war, alien
societies, puzzles, enigmas, absolutely anything can occur, with
imagination being the only limit."
                                - Marc W. Miller (CT Book 3)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
The best graphics and web design - http://www.irevolution.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 01:28:50 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1632

OK - What's YCHTBE mean???

>Later,
>TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
>Marcus A. Teter



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:42:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Imperium Games Scenario Competition

I recall that long ago, IG ran a Scenario Competition. Did anything come
of that? Who won the promised megaprize of a year's products from IG? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 01:53:03 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp Universe

Please forgive my complete ignorance, BUT:  Would somebody pls explain what
a stutterwarp drive/universe is???






Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:49:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

	Greetings!

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Steve Daniels wrote:
> ...
> sword fighters and they have said this.  Guess I'll have to watch the
> Princess Bride again for what is surely the best film fencing scenes in
> several decades.

	It is still too Hollywood.  Catch Ridley Scott's "The Duellist".

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:44:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

	Greetings!

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Mike Lee wrote:
> ....
> carefully, and pray the other guy's shot doesn't kill him first.  If a man
> fires and misses, he has to literally stand there and wait for his opponent
> to take his shot.  Talk about nerve-wracking.  If both parties miss, they
> reload and try again.

	Especially when the gun had a hair-trigger.  The damn thing could
go off at the slightest provocation.  That's how Hamilton got himself
whacked.

> French:  This is the classic fencing style, surviving today in sport
> fencing.  Each opponent fights with a single sword.  Emphasis was placed on
> targeting the opponent's torso, because frankly it gave the most likely odds
> for a fatal or incapacitating hit.

	Actually, modern sport fencing (decending from the smallsword)
differs a bit from the French schools of the 17-18th centuries (a la
Angelo).  

> Florentine:  The Italians used the same fencing style as the French, but
> went one better- their duelists fought with weapons in both hands.  Target
> areas are the same as the French, but some greater emphasis was also placed
> on targeting the opponent's arms.  This became the preeminent style after a
> time, because two weapons are almost always better than one, if the duelist
> has enough dexterity.  Over time, Florentine spawned a wide vareity of
> combinations:  sword and dagger, sword and sword, sword and cloak (my
> favorite), and sometimes sword and dueling glove, which was a glove fitted
> with chain mail on the back and palm, and allowed for catching or blocking
> an opponent's weapon.

	Actually, the chainmail glove (guanto di pressa ?) was a Spanish
innovation.  The Italians were known to fight with a single weapon just as
much as with a secondard blade.  I always liked the Anglo-French
sword-and-lantern convention myself <g>.

> Spanish:  Very scary style.  The opponents fight with their weapons held at
> shoulder-height, arms slightly bent and elbows facing away from each other.
> The only acceptable targets are the head and neck.  Nearly always fought
> with two swords per duelist.  It's nerve-wracking even to SPAR with this style.

	This sounds like a reconstruction.  The Spanish style from the
16-18th century was the Destreza, which was a circular style with 12
angles of attack.  It was a single blade style.  The Spanish system had a
LOT of foreign critics, but there some pretty good fencers from Spain...
:)

>         In addition to this, there were several schools of dueling in Europe
> that revolved around fighting with such incongrous weapons as two-handed
> swords and polearms.  A duel with two-handed swords would be a real dance,
> because both opponents have to keep the weapons in motion- a block
> immediately turns into an attack, and back again, until someone finally
> slips up.

	There was alos a wonderful "Highland Broadsword" and shield style
that saw little use <G>.

	It is hard these days to separate true historical conventions and
styles from modern "reconstructions".  If only someone would re-print some
of the older classics! :)

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 03:01:48 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

>Well, that's slightly overstated - HST can't see gas giants, after all
>(although that's partially dominated by surface ripples in the mirror - not
>the big figure error, but ripples on the scale of the polishing machine;
>considered acceptable in manufacture because planetfinding wasn't HST's
>purpose in life.) Still, with good atmosphere correction a 5-10m telescope
>on the ground can see planets, so a TL9+ 5-10m sensor in orbit certainly can.
>For a first cut, I would say that a T4 sensor can see gas giants out to
>a range of 2 parsecs*sensor rating (so a P4 can see gas giants at 8 parsecs);
>this would be an Average task for a sensor operator and take 12 hours per
>target system (but no matter how good the sensor operator there should
>always be a 1 in 6 chance or so of missing the planet because it's
>projected too close to the star or something.)

If you wanted to get way too rulesey with this whole process, one could
design a little chart that modified the sensor roll based on the size of
the star in the system. A small type M star would hardly be likely to
"drown out" any Gas Giants in the system while a type O supergiant may kick
out a lot of energy and litteraly dwarf Gas Giants in nearby orbits. Double
and Triple star systems would complicate matters even further. The range in
difficultly may remain the same (or in certain extreme circumstances be
raised), but DMs would add detail to what should be more than a simple die
roll. As a matter of fact, I would even consider this whole process as a
possibility for interesting adventure situations.

After all, stars are people too. :)




Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 03:36:27 -0700
From: David Simmons <singularity@qks.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

Hello all,

I'm a lurker and a newbie to this mail-forum and am clearly at risk of
jumping into the middle of a discussion in which I don't have much
background or history...

HISTORICAL BIO - Blah, blah, blah. 
- ----------------------------------
I was a big wargame and RPG fanatic going to all the conventions when I was
a teenager and into my college years where I studied physics and electrical
engineering.  To give you some idea, I owned all the SPI and Avalon Hill
games, I have a complete Strategic Review and Dragon Magazine collection up
through the early 80's, GURPS, etc. I'm pretty confident that I still have
a pretty complete set of all the Traveller materials that were released
from numerous sources up through that time period as well. I began my
gaming in 73' and faded out around 83. The risk factor here is that my
younger brother (10 years younger) who also really got into gaming (and is
still involved in non-science fiction RPG's) may have subsequently munged
through my collections of stuff.

I was located in Maryland, and have since moved to the West Coast. If I get
more into this group and this CD effort makes those materials useful to
your CD project, I could ask my younger brother to dig through my old stuff
at my parent's place and see if these old materials are lost or not. 

These days I am the president and founder of a software company that
produces software development tools, specifically a Smalltalk language
(Interactive Development Environment) product.  I'm still an avid Science
Fiction fan which is why my wife ordered me a subscription to the SciFi
channel magazine "Science Fiction Age".  I was perusing the latest issue
reading about various stuff including Babylon 5 which is quite popular in
our company when I saw the inside front cover advertisement for
"Traveller". Fascinated that the game was being advertised and seemed to
have a lot of new titles I got curious and started checking out the web
sites on Traveller. In the intervening week or so I think I have looked
carefully at more than half of the Traveller Web-Ring's sites. 

I was impressed with the Artwork available and the Community that seems to
exist around the current IG T4 product.  I was also quite curious how Marc
Miller is doing these days and what he is really up to?  

Why is all this dialogue relevant? Well, I have been looking for a fun and
distracting hobby and thought I would see if an RPG like Traveller would
fit the bill for a few hours of time a week.  I am still pondering this
notion and would probably be more inclined in this direction if I found
some players or a gaming group in the Bay Area (San Mateo/Silicon Valley)
of San Francisco. 

Ironically enough, the reason I got into computers was because I got really
tired (as a gamemaster) of managing all the "administrivia" of gaming
mechanics and wanted to use computers to make tools to enable me to focus
on the gaming.  These days I have tools and capabilities I never even
dreamed of when I was gaming.  Who knows, given my old dreams of writing a
really cool gaming tool I may even find some time to write a few goodies
myself (but first I want to see what's around and make sure that my
activities aren't going to affect someone else's hard earned and probably
more dedicated efforts).
- ----

INTERESTING AND RELEVANT STUFF
- ------------------------------
Ok, so that was long winded but maybe it will help garner an invitation to
join some Traveller gaming group?

The intervening years since my gaming days have wrought many changes for me
and one that might be of some benefit in this discussion thread is in the
area of CD ROM production and software titles.  My company has produced a
number of CD ROM's in cross-platform formats and thus I have access to that
skill set and also the hardware and software required.

I don't know if what I am going to say is valuable but hopefully it won't
hurt <g>. At the risk of being redundant with regard to previous forum
discussions, here is a short (scratch that, it is now a long) take on my
experience with the mechanics and cost of CD ROM production and related
issues.

o  CD Blanks for one-off's cost around $3.50 depending on where and
   how you buy them. If you don't shop around then they typically
   cost $9 - $12 each.

o  CD Burners for one-off's cost around $450 these days for a 2x SCSI 
   burner. We've got a number of burners in various speeds up to 6x.  
   Most of the burners come with software for one-off mastering.  If you 
   have a choice and you need to be cross platform, then do your production 
   work on a Macintosh.  The Win95/NT platform tools don't have Mac
   support but the Mac tools do have Win32 support.

o  It takes about 10-20 minutes to burn a complete one-off CD of
   some 500+ MB. I think it is highly unlikely that the 3000 to
   4000 pages of material being talked about would fill and entire
   CD if it was in a PDF/HTML/Text form.  It's the artwork files of 
   JPEG or GIF that will chew up the space quickly. The files 
   could also be maintained in a compressed form on the CD. Alternatively,
   The CD ROM product with two CD's could be produced for less than
   double the production cost of a single CD. Search/tools software and 
   its database indexes might also chew up quite a bit of space depending 
   on how they were produced.

o  It is pretty straightforward to prep a single CD that has a dual 
   format suitable for use on both Mac and Win32 (long filenames).
   This format preserves the Mac niceties of data and resource forks.  
   You can also easily add autorun features for both Mac and Win32.  
   (i.e., it launches some software when the CD is inserted into the 
   CD drive).

o  I didn't mention it above but my company has also been actively
   involved in DVD (digital video disk) software tools. We have 
   been working on a number of facilities under contract to an
   unnamed source and have experience there too. Although I suspect
   that for mass (gamer) appeal that technology is a few years away.

o  It takes a minimum of 3 days to "turn" a run of CD's from a
   "burned" one-off CD.  The typical timeframe is more on the
   order of 5-10 business days if you don't want to pay extra
   for a rush job.

o  The process involves providing your one-off CD from which a
   glass master is produced for the actual CD run.  You pay a
   fixed cost for the glass master and then a unit cost per/CD
   that depends on quantity produced.

o  There are a variety of options in packaging a CD from Jewel
   case to Tyvex sleeves.

o  The amazing element is that you can get up to 32 pages of
   color material in a CD insert booklet for dirt cheap.  Some 
   vendors limit you to 28 pages.

o  The other factor in producing a CD is the cost for artwork
   and the film used for the CD insert and booklet. 

o  Given all the above elements, a 1000 piece run with a 28 page
   color booklet could be set up and produced start-to-finish in 
   about 1 month (including time for the testing, artwork, film, 
   and CD pressing). The cost would range around $2000 to $3500 
   for the combination of the film and the CD pressing of 1000 
   CD's with Jewel cases, inserts, booklets in a shrink wrap
   form. [The big cost missing here is the "labor" of prepping
   the CD and its content, as well as the graphic arts labor.
   If the talent for that was volunteered by this group, as
   it appears that it would be, then the cost is pretty low].
   I.e., For comparison, a complete set of the new Traveller
   game aids available from IG is around $600 based on my quick
   look at the price sheets. I hope they're doing ok; I know
   that when I make IG T4 game aid purchases, I'll purchase
   directly from them to help them get the extra margin. I 
   would really hope that folks would let IG sell the CD ROM
   for a healthy price, they are in business and their making 
   a profit is obviously important for the health and well-being 
   of the Traveller game.

o  I noticed discussion on file-formats for encoding elements.
   My experience is that JPEG and GIF are your best choices
   for both cross platform and size.  I would not recommend
   either for textual content; they are both excellent for 
   graphics.  JPEG has the best compression and quality but
   it lacks the ability to have animation or non-rectangular
   images.  GIF can contain animations and artwork that
   overlays on a page with transparency (non-rectangular 
   images). There are many good tools (including shareware)
   that enable these images to be easily encoded using color 
   palettes that display well on Mac and Win32 machines with 
   only 8-bit (256 color) displays.

o  We have distributed our product documentation in .PDF and
   found that there were two distinct groups of customers/users.
   Those who loved it and had no problems with Acrobat and those
   who hated the reader and found Acrobat to be problematic on
   their machines since its installer's appeared to mess up
   their system configurations. [This is both Mac and Win32].

o  I personally like .PDF but find that it is equally valuable
   to have HTML and Text.  I think the decision to provide 
   documents in all three formats is going to be important 
   given the wide range of "uses" I presumed after reading the 
   20 or so postings related to this Traveller CD ROM topic.

o  PDF is cool because it enables book/quality reproduction
   and printing. It's browser is good for some folks but leaves
   a bit to be desired when compared to HTML/Web based 
   browsing or a custom software tool for searching and
   serving up formatted data.

o  HTML is cool because it enables integration of graphics
   and sound with a hypertext navigation system.  You can
   also use a variety of tools to provide auto-generated
   HTML or interactive tools in an HTML format.  (I.e.,
   Java and <grin> products like ours that can serve and
   generate HTML on the fly).

o  Text is cool because it is a clean format for software
   that would use it for tables and serving up data in a
   variety of forms. I.e., it is the best format to release
   information in for use in making software utilities and
   for re-use in authoring of new content (gaming aids,
   campaigns and adventure scenarios).

o  I personally don't have a lot of experience with OCR
   from typeset/DTP'ed sources.  I suspect that the comments
   from another fellow "lurker" on this topic were accurate
   in that it has been my experience that typeface and
   the typesize of the source material make a tremendous
   difference in the quality of the generated result.  I
   would also agree with the same lurker that at least some
   of the original materials are still around on someone's 
   computer in electronic formats.  I also have found that 
   hiring people to type in textual material is not particularly
   expensive and can be a lot more cost effective than
   OCR efforts. In any case aggressive use of good spell 
   checker tools and the services of a professional indexer
   will almost certainly be invaluable to the success of the
   end resulting material. My limited experience was that the 
   tables were the toughest element.  Graphics like ship deck 
   plans or artwork would seem to be the aspect where scanning 
   was essential.
    
Best Regards,

Dave Simmons

Hoping to find a mature local gaming group in the San Francisco/Silicon
Valley area with Traveller interests. Also interested in e-mail, or better
yet an IRC/chat based game.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1640
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 2 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1641



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deep Space
Re: Newton owners?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604
Re: Used ships
Re: TL10 Ships
re: detecting planets from a long way away (was re: deep space)
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re:  Idea (skills related)
Re: Stutterwarp Universe
Re: Ship Noises
Re: AI switches
[T97#1632] Fencing Styles
RE: Deckplans and Visio? 
Re: Newton owners?
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: CD project
RE: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: MT Referee's Kit
Re: critters on ships
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Marathon weapons in FF&S/TTA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:45:26 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

Leonard Erickson said:

>Get a one meter or bigger scope into space and you'll be able to *see*
>the gas giants at quite a few parsecs.

Um, we have a 2.4 m telescope in space right now, and I haven't seen a
flood of results finding gas giants out to a few parsecs.  A few
gas-giant like objects where they shouldn't be, yes, although I'm not
sure that was using space-based observations.

Its a weekend,so I can't be bothered working this out, but I think
things are a bit more involved than that.  Current plans for looking
for extra-solar planets (in a serious way) require a multi-element
interferometer (to get the spacial resolution) operating in the IR (to
separate planets from stars) and placed in space (because its IR).
This technology is about cutting edge TL 9, so it is clear that the
Imperium will be able to survey a sector for star systems probably to
the limit of a sector from one point.  Of course, they also have the
advantage of being able to build an interferometer in more than one
place, which is sure to help.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:53:52 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Newton owners?

Moin Jason Anderson,

> Which reminds me - how many people on this list own Newtons and would be
> interested in Traveller software written for them? No, I haven't written
> any yet (I don't own a Newton yet), but I have been thinking about getting
> one and the developers kit. Any interest?

	I dislike systems where development is propretary (apple)

	If Apple would make development tools free available I would
	own an Newton. Currently I have an Atari Portfolio (MS-256KB RAM)
	and I have some Traveller related miniprograms written for
	it (only 40*8 display), as its posible to run any .com file,
	even Turbo Pascal 1.0 runs fine ;-)

	A perfect system for me would be a Java handheld with Newtons
	script recocnising software.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:20:29 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1604

Moin CardSharks@aol.com,

> And we could really save space by building it all into the walls. So if the
> hard drive crashed, just open this little book and look up where it is...
> down by the fresher at bulkhead 13, third panel from the left.

	have you seen how many computers a modern freighter has.

	e.G.: a Finnish 17999er chartered for celulose for 5 years
	requires only a crew of 6 (they currently have 12 because
	of Finnish union). 17999 would be 1800 Traveller displacement
	tons. This ship probately had more computers and electronic
	than staterooms said Alex who was on this ship for one year.

	So we should not lower computer size but greatly reduce crew
	on civilian ships.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:03:53 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Used ships

Moin Daniel Poulin,

> One of my player ended up with a used merchant ship in the character
> generation.  He wants to sell it (another character has a ship and it
> would be stupid to have more than one).  Does anyone have a rule out
> there for how much a used ship would be worth (I tried looking for a
> rule on wear and tear in FF&S in order to determine how much that ship
> would be worth but I can't find anything (there should be an index to
> that great - but painful to search through - book)).  On the other hand,
> if anybody has a rule out there for purchasing (or selling) a used ship,
> I'd be happy to have it.  Thanks.

	My house formular :

	Price = (70-WearValue*10) * ListPrice / 100
	     +/- starport and role playing modifier

	Starport and rpg modifier see trade rules.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:52:43 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: TL10 Ships

Moin Eric Jackson,

> Ok, I would believe that. So what is the standard duration for thuruster
> fuel? How many hours of fuel should a ship carry?

	Ok lets look at TNE :

			G	G-Hour	Jump	using all fuel
	Scout		2	40	2	56
	Far Trader	1	24	2	40
	Free Trader	1	28	1	40
	Yacht		4	16	4	44
	Gazelle		5	 5	5	38
	 + tanks	3	34	3	56
	Lab Ship	1	50	2	67
	Patrol Cruiser	4	30	3	52
	SDB		4	60
	Merchant	1	30	1	41
	Donosev		2	57	2	79
	Liner		3	38	1	60
	Broadsword	1	53	1	64

	Be cautius that in TNE all ships had HEPlaR, and that T4 uses
	CT calculations for jump fuel. Calculations for HEPlaR stay
	the same.

	CT/T4 : Jumpfuel = Displacement*Parsec/10
	MT/TNE: Jumpfuel = Displacement*Parsec*(N+1)/20		IIRC ;-)
	        where N is the maximum jump number

	Hm truster plates are 4 times cheaper in T4 than in TNE, and
	4 times more expensive than in MT where they are calculated
	quite different.

	Are jump drives and thusters realy identical from CT and T4.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:21:15 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: detecting planets from a long way away (was re: deep space)

>A small type M star would hardly be likely to
>"drown out" any Gas Giants in the system while a type O supergiant may kick
>"drown out" any Gas Giants in the system while a type O supergiant may kick
>out a lot of energy and litteraly dwarf Gas Giants in nearby orbits.

To first order, the luminosity of the primary star doesn't matter, since the 
luminosity of the planet scales with the luminosity of the star (a brighter
star means that the planet has more light to reflect, and gets hotter and
emits more thermal radiation too.) Second-order effects (changes in spectral
shape of the planet, 1/r^2 vs 1/r^11/3 dependence for scattered light, 
and photon noise) actually favour the bright stars somewhat (the simulations
my group does indicate, for example, that we could see a uranus-like planet
around sirius but not around a equivalently-distant M-dwarf.) So it's probably
not worth the complexity of a table (I don't get paid to make tables.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:22:15 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Tom Trelenberg wrote:

>
>> voice, etc.  In fact, this may well happen to my players in a
>>      week.  I just need to decide on the right funny accent,
>>      personality and name for the computer - any ideas out there?
>>
>  How about using Majel (sp) Barrett's voice (hey hey hey--I was only
>joking)
>
>Zen and Slave from Blake's 7 are good.  Or for a whimsical and
>unreliable model there's always  "Hi There!  This is Eddie your
>shipboard computer...." from Hitchhiker's guide (specifically
>remembering the voice of David Tate in the radio program).  At any rate
>pick something at least a little eccentric, there nothing more boring
>than a completely "obedient" AI!  :-}


	Ugh.  This thread is giving me Durandal flashbacks.  For those of
you who haven't played Marathon, Marathon 2, and Marathon: Infinity until
you've had an irresistible urge to shoot people wearing green and
hallucinated little red and green motion-detector polygons in the
lower-left-hand corner of your vision, the thought of a completely obedient
as opposed to totally rampant AI ought to be anything but boring..:).

	It won't insult you, berate you, kidnap you, abuse you, run you
through behavioural experiments involving lots of heavily armed hostile
aliens, and then kidnap you again and use you as a flunky in a convoluted
plot to overthrow an alien civilization (which for some reason involves
beaming you alone and with insufficient ammo into places crammed to the
gills with more heavily armed hostile aliens) all the while subjecting you
to its incredibly egotistical and sarcastic sense of humour.

	In fact, the only thing worse than a ship run by Durandal would be
a ship run by Tycho, his archenemy AI.  They sort've make a Bad
Cop/AntiChrist team with Durandal as a Bad Cop.

	OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
There's lots there for a Trav game...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 14:18:05 -0700
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re:  Idea (skills related)

Glenn Crawford wrote:
>  
> Here is an idea that has been bouncing around in my head for a while.
> Instead of tying skills to a given either/or stat, why not provide secondary
> stats? They are the average of the two stats, round up. You do not have to
> name them, I just did it to give a feel for the particular comboes.
> St=Strength, De=Dexterity, En=Endurance, In=Intelligence, Ed=Education,
> So=Social
> NEW STATS
> Fitness (StEn)
> Agility (StDe)
> Presence  (StSo)
> Reflexes  (DeIn)
> Grace  (DeSo)
> Willpower  (EnIn)
> Experience  (InEd)
> Wit  (InSo)
> Style  (EdSo)
> 

Nicely done, Glenn! I'm trying to get an MT campaign started and was
trying to think of how to use the stats better in the task rolls.
I was starting to look at how Determination was derived and your idea
is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 20:58:58 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp Universe

Stutterwarp is the faster-than-light drive used in Traveller:2300.  
Some people (like me) like the idea of the Stutterwarp (it was given 
game stats in the Fire Fusion & Steel book for Traveller:The New Era) 
as well as the "conventional" jump drive.



Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 13:02:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> It's too easy to control vermin on shipboard. Since all the "permanent"
> blankets, and de-pressurize the section you took them from. It'd take
> some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of vacuum.
 
I don't know -- have experiments been done with cockroaches?  Lots of
arthropods can survive underwater for very long periods of time, so it
wouldn't surprise me if they could withstand vaccuum as well.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:25:41 -0400
From: Ross Coburn <ross@ican.net>
Subject: Re: AI switches

Marc wrote:

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In a message dated 97-08-01 07:12:57 EDT, you write:

<<  Aren't computers at TL16 semi-sentient and sentient by TL17?  >>

They can be. Mine have a small switch (like the Turbo switch on a PC)
labelled Sentient / Not.

Marc


Funnly, that's how I feel about myself and/or my co-workers, except that
these switches tend to be labelled coffee / not yet.


Sorry.

ROSS COBURN
Director, Information Systems
Public Technologies Multimedia
ross@ptm.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 22:10:55 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#1632] Fencing Styles

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:57:44 -0400, lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu
(Mike Lee) wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Jul 97 11:58:00 GMT, Stephen wrote:
>
>>I've been giving some thought to the Code of Dueling for the Nobles in =my Mileu
>>0 campaign and I've pretty much decided the weapon of choice will be a =sword.
>>Why?  Because it would require skill, any idiot can point a pistol and =pull a
>>trigger.  But if Fencing is the prefered method of resolving Duels then= it's
>>inevitable that Fencing Schools and Styles would quickly become =important.
>>Which is where I turn to the list because frankly I haven't got a Clue =as to
>>where to turn to research this.  I vaguely remember reading about a =Spanish
>>Style, a French a Florentine Sytle and such from the early Seventeenth =Century.
>>Price you pay for enjoying Dumas too much. <GRIN> But I'd really like =some
>>pointers as to where to look and any ideas the list might have that =
would be
>>applicable.
>>
>>Stephen
>
>        Dueling with a pistol is tougher than you might think.  Assuming
>that traditional rules still apply (dueling with SMG's would sort of =defeat
>the purpose), each duellist is given a weapon with a single shot.  They
>stand back-to-back, walk ten (or so) paces, turn and fire.  Essentially =the
>duelist is offered two choices- he can turn and fire a snapshot, hoping =he
>hits and incapacitates his opponent, or else he can take his time, aim
>carefully, and pray the other guy's shot doesn't kill him first.  If a =man
>fires and misses, he has to literally stand there and wait for his =opponent
>to take his shot.  Talk about nerve-wracking.  If both parties miss, =they
>reload and try again.

I seem to recall reading one story (H. Beam Piper paratime
story?) where the rules were somewhat more flexible - in one
scene, the terms were "twenty rounds, twenty meters, fire at will
after the signal".  Our Hero needed one shot to win.  I would
suggest that you can modify rules, customs, protocols, et cetera
to suit the needs of your campaign.

>        As dueling with swords became formalized over the course of the
>Renaissance, a wide variety of weapons and styles were employed against =one
>another.  The major styles were:

It's fairly obvious that there was a wide variety of styles;
again, this would appear to be a place where you have the
flexibility to set the rules to whatever would be best for the
needs of your campaign.  Also note that there are other weapons
beside traditional swords or guns; consider, for example, what
the rules and protocols for a Klingon duel with betleHmey
(bat'telhs, those double-ended large Klingon weapons) would need
to be, to fit the culture.  Then consider how different a duel
with Daqtaghmey (Daktag, the knife with the small blades that pop
out from the side of the hilt) would necessarily be.

=46or your particular campaign, you've said that you've decided on
swords.  What kind of swords?  Foils?  Cutlasses?  Broadswords?
Sabres?  Scimitars?  Long Swords?  Short Swords?  Something else
entirely?  What are the fighting techniques that you would need
to use with the weapon?  What are the allowable target areas?
Does anything change in a blood duel versus a touch duel versus a
death duel?  How constrained is the Code Duello?  Can the party
with choice of weapon choose other than the "standard" weapons
form, or change the conditions under which they shall be used?
Does material make a difference in technique (probably; weight
and balance may be different; so too the response of the weapon
to different kinds of impact)?  In short, _what_else_can_you_
_tell_us_about_your_campaign_that_may_have_an_impact_on_the_
_Code_Duello_?

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:06:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: MarkPeace@aol.com
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Visio? 

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:

>> And I still have problems getting all of the equipment to fit into the
>> deckplan... The main problem is the empty common space isn't really
>> allowed for/accounted for in the volume calculations.  Do I take a
>> portion of each item (stateroom, laboratory, workstation, sensor suite,
>> fusion powerplant, jump drive, etc) and "donate" it towards the common
>> areas.
>
>Actually, I've seen in several places that 'common' areas, such as halls,
>dining rooms, etc, are carved out of the stated systems volumes, ie: A
>stateroom listed at 4Td doesn't use all of it...some is part of the common
>area allotment.

In Highguard only 2 tons out of the allocated 4 tons is actually used for
staterooms, the rest being used for corridors, recreation areas etc. (But
presumably not access areas in Engineering etc - I took part of the
drive/powerplant volumes to be for this.)

This always seemed to work pretty well - eg. Even on a Scout with 4
staterooms this gives you approx. 36 m2 of floor area.  This should be plenty
when you consider that space would be at a premium on starships and
floorplans would be designed to minimize space taken up by corridors. (eg
Access to the bridge, all staerooms, engine room etc could all be off the
main living/recreation area on a small ship - hence virtually no corridor
space required.)  Of course yachts etc would be a different matter - take as
much space as you like.

I'd also tend to have even less free space on some military ships - warships
with free areas as cramped as today submarines would certainly be possible.
(And this is a fair analogy as people live on submarines for months at a
time.)

- - This is all as used in CT - just ignore me if it's been updated in TNE/T4
:-)

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:19:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Newton owners?

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Jason Anderson,
> 
> > Which reminds me - how many people on this list own Newtons and would be
> > interested in Traveller software written for them? No, I haven't written
> > any yet (I don't own a Newton yet), but I have been thinking about getting
> > one and the developers kit. Any interest?
> 
> 	I dislike systems where development is propretary (apple)
> 
> 	If Apple would make development tools free available I would
> 	own an Newton. Currently I have an Atari Portfolio (MS-256KB RAM)
> 	and I have some Traveller related miniprograms written for
> 	it (only 40*8 display), as its posible to run any .com file,
> 	even Turbo Pascal 1.0 runs fine ;-)


Not to get into a platform debate, but Apple is NOT the only source for a
Newton development environment. There is also a product called NS-Basic
available shareware. Last I knew, Turbo-Pascal wasn't free either...

Finally, Apple DOES have a version of the Newton Toolkit available free on
their web site. There are limitations to the package, and you can't sell
programs written with it legally, but it's free for the download.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 15:59:49 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> >> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> >> > Does anyone out there have a Visio template for deckplans already
> >> > built? If not, does anyone have better (free) software for doing
> >> > these plans?
> 
> I've created a Visio 4.0 template for some some common rooms and fixtures
> that would be on deckplans. It's almost 500k, so I won't send it to the
> list, but if anybody wants a copy let me know.
> 

Yes, please! But I bet you knew that!
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:47:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: CD project

Matt McLaughlin wrote:

>1    A set of conversion rules (particularly for spacecraft ;) ) between
>the various editions would be an invaluable resouce, even if compiled
>and distributed separately.

Rob Flammang has already released a set of High Guard to T4 rules onto the
TML which work quite nicely.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:44:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Visio?

Jeff Cornish wrote:

>Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
>many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ?

I use AutoCAD LT2 (and it bombs out all the time using Win3.11! and a
Pentium 133) at work. Haven't got around to using it for Traveller yet...
Except for a subsector blank hex grid...

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:41:46 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: MT Referee's Kit

Peter Miller wrote:

>MT Referee's Kit: Just wondering; what exactly is this product, and what
>does it contain?

It was produced by DGP, and contained two three panel GM's screens (which
explained the MT combat system properly), an adventure with links to
Knightfall (very subtle..), and a set of common components/equipment on the
same forms as used in the MTJ and TD.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:52:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: critters on ships

Leonard wrote:

>It'd take some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of
>vacuum.

Say a xenomorph with a three stage lifecycle, starting with an egg, then a
spiderlike stage with a long tail that impregnates victims with the last
stage, a very nasty adult form. We could make it very nasty by giving it
acid for blood, as well as the vacuum immunity.


;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:59:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Craig Berry wrote:


>That's great!  I'm reminded of a scene in Iain Banks' "The Player of
>Games," which I forcefully recommend (along with all his other stuff,
>especially "Consider Phlebas" and "Use of Weapons") to all Trav people, SF
>fans, and admirers of simply brilliant writing and plotting.  This is not
>a spoiler, btw.


<snip>

>I also join others in recommending Banks' work as a source for the best
>starship names ever seen in SF.  Favorite examples:  A 50-km intergalactic
>starship with 250 million crew/residents named "So Much for Subtlety," and
>a civilian craft converted for combat named "No More Mr. Nice Guy."
>"Gunboat Diplomat" is also rather nice.  There are many *many* others.
>READ HIS BOOKS.

'Excession' is also superb (it deals with the plot from the perspective of
the ships AI's).

I second Craig's recommendations on Banks - his normal novels are also
gripping. (Wasp Factory is a very grim, but strangely gripping almost
horror story). The Bridge, Espedair Street and The Crow Road are the ones
I'd really recommend on the non-SF side. The new book "A song of stone'
looks good, but I haven't finished it yet!

Dom
(Iain Banks Junkie ;-) )

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 20:08:41 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marathon weapons in FF&S/TTA

	After my last post re Marathon & ship AI's (shudder), it occurred
to me to run the various weapons in Marathon through FF&S.  Some won't
really work well; the WSTE-M Combat Shotgun (a sawed-off lever-action
double-barreled 12-gauge with apparently limitless mag capacity) for
example has serious reality conformity problems let alone doability in FF&S
problems.  However, the .44 Magnum Mega Class, the MA-75B Assault
Rifle/Grenade Launcher, the KKV-7 10mm Flechette SMG, and the SPNKR XM-18
Rocket Launcher do work rather well.

	Here's my first effort, the .44 Magnum Mega Class.  For
non-Marathon players, it's a .44 magnum sidearm with optic sight and
8-round magazine issued to UESC Mjolnir Mk.IV battleroid security personnel
(who pack them two-handed depending upon availability) and Durandal's BoB's
(enslaved former human colonists of Tau Ceti/crewmembers of the UESC
Marathon).  It has a nice smooth and rounded reciever and slide, brown
contoured grip, and an odd ringlike finger rest resembling a second trigger
guard ahead of the trigger guard.  To facilitate weapon retention in
adverse circumstances, a similar ringlike finger guard is provided for the
middle finger below the trigger guard on the grip.

T4 Stats:

Name: 		UESC .44 Magnum Mega Class.
Damage: 	4.
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		8.
Mass (empty):	2.6 Kg.
Reloads:	0.5 Kg.
Price:		3,364 Cr.

FF&S/TTA design notes:


* Cartridge (11X52mm straight cased)

Caliber= 11mm
Rated energy= 1,850 joules
Base area= 95 mm^2
Propellant volume= 1,542 mm^3
Bullet length= 11mm
Case length= 41mm
Round length= 52mm
Round mass= 39.52 g
Ideal barrel length= 16 cm
Round price= 1.58 cr/round ordinary, 0.79/round mass produced
Designation= 11X52 .44 Magnum Mega Class


* Barrel (16 cm light rifled)

Barrel length= 16 cm
Barrel mass= 0.32
Barrel price= 64 Cr
Actual Muzzle Energy= 1,850 joules (as barrel length equals ideal barrel
length)


* Reciever (TL-9 advanced materials light semi-auto)

Reciever length= 21 cm
Reciever mass= 1.575 Kg
Peciever price= 3,150 Cr.


* Magazine (8-round grip)

Mass= 158.08 g empty, 474.3 g full.
(it can take a 12-round magazine as well, but I'm sticking to Marathon
specs; for those who care its mass would be 211 g empty, 685.2 full)


* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 37 cm
Bulk: 2
Mass: loaded 2.894 Kg, empty 2.578 Kg
Price: 3,364 Cr.
Basic Range: 19.35 m (Short Range in T4 range bands)
Damage: 4 (actually 4.09)
Recoil: 4 (actually 3.06)


	On to the KKV-7 Flechette SMG!

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1641
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1642



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: AI Ships and Darrians
FF&S has arrived today...
UESC .44 Magnum revised
Marathon weapons: KKV-7 10mm Flechette SMG
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: AI ships and Darrians
Re: Idea (skills related)
THUDDD 6 - TL10 - SDB
Marathon weapons: MA-75B AR/GL
Re: FF&S has arrived today...
RE: Deckplans and Visio?
Want to Buy MT Referee's Gaming Kit
Traveller Fiction: Old and New?
Re:[T97#1632] Fencing Styles
new items & math question
Re: Used ships
Re: critters on ships
Re: Deckplans and Visio?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 20:54:14 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Hey,

> I second Craig's recommendations on Banks - his normal novels are also
> gripping. (Wasp Factory is a very grim, but strangely gripping almost
> horror story). The Bridge, Espedair Street and The Crow Road are the ones
> I'd really recommend on the non-SF side. The new book "A song of stone'
> looks good, but I haven't finished it yet!

Just a note as I saw this threat about some SF with good AI characters. 
If anyone's read "Golden Fleece" by Robert Sawyer, the computer is that
story is excellently portrayed as an AI villain.  Read it, you'll love
it!

- -- 

________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"Virtually anything mentioned in a story or article can be transferred
to the Traveller environment.  Orbital cities, nuclear war, alien
societies, puzzles, enigmas, absolutely anything can occur, with
imagination being the only limit."
                                - Marc W. Miller (CT Book 3)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
The best graphics and web design - http://www.irevolution.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 20:06:58 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: FF&S has arrived today...

I just got FF&S and Gateway in the mail today.  After a brief glance, it
I would venture to say that it looks ok.  It is setup in a similar
manner to PE, with all the tables at the end of the book.  Other than
the tables which is nice but annoying at the same time the book looks to
be pretty good.  Of course it will have to go through some extensive
design tests... Has anybody else got it yet. Have any opinions?

Alex Rebsch
grazzit@flash.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:26:15 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: UESC .44 Magnum revised

	Wups... forgot to add the weight of the pistol grip; here's the
revised T4 stats.

T4 Stats:

Name: 		UESC .44 Magnum Mega Class.
Damage: 	4.
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		8.
Mass (empty):	2.74 Kg.
Reloads:	0.5 Kg.
Price:		3,389 Cr.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:26:00 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marathon weapons: KKV-7 10mm Flechette SMG

	Here's another Marathon weapon run through FF&S for Trav use, the
KKV-7 10mm Flechette SMG.  For non-Marathon players, it's a blued-steel SMG
with a drum magazine, large cylindrical barrel shroud tapering forwards
beginning about 2/3rds along its length, no stock or forestock (just a
pistolgrip), and primitive ring sights. It fires 10mm flechettes at a high
rate of fire (I calculate approx. 960 rpm depending on your computer's CPU
speed ;>) both underwater (which I think would be dubious both IRL and in
Traveller) and in vacuum.  As with the .44 MMC, I designed it at TL-9,
which I think is consonant with the UESC Marathon's tech level in the game
(more or less).  Also note the use of a half die in the damage stat; I use
them in my game, YMMV.  The price seems low, but recall that this is a very
non-frills weapon.  Finally, FF&S2 states that flechettes are more
effective at penetrating flex armour; the special case for damage below is
my attempt at reflecting this).  This would give the weapon a distinct
niche; punching holes in EVA-11 suited targets.

T4 Stats:

Name: 		KKV-7 10mm Flechette SMG.
Damage: 	2.5 (special; treated as 1 die greater against flex armour).
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		32.
Mass (empty):	2.75 Kg.
Reloads:	1.7 Kg.
Price:		370 Cr.

Reload price:	249.85 (see below; flechettes COST BIGTIME!)


FF&S/TTA design notes:


* Cartridge (10X61 straight flechette)

Caliber= 10mm
Rated energy= 800 joules
Base area= 78.54 mm^2
Propellant volume= 667 mm^3
Bullet length= 40mm
Case length= 21mm
Round length= 61mm
Round mass= 38.32 g
Ideal barrel length= 32 cm
Round price= 7.664 cr/round ordinary (flechettes are EXPENSIVE!  AAGH!)
Designation= 10X61mmF KKV


* Barrel (32 cm heavy smoothbore)

Barrel length= 32 cm*
Barrel mass= 0.96**
Barrel price= 96 Cr***
Actual Muzzle Energy= 800 joules (as barrel length equals ideal barrel length)
* plus suppressor, flash hider, so actual length of barrel assembly is 45 cm.
** 1.24 kg with suppressor and flash hider
*** 149 Cr with suppressor and flash hider


* Reciever (TL-9 heavy full-auto; no burst setting)

Reciever length= 21 cm
Reciever mass= 1.05 Kg
Reciever price= 210 Cr


* Magazine (32-round drum)

Mass= 459.84 g empty, 1686 g full.
Price= 4.6 Cr empty, 249.85 Cr full.


* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 67 cm
Bulk: 4 (actually 4.4667)
Mass: loaded 3.926 Kg, empty 2.7 Kg
Price: 370 Cr.
Basic Range: 18.38 m (Short Range in T4 range bands)
Damage: 2.5 (actually 2.6937)
Recoil: 1 single-shot, 5 on full-auto

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 22:31:10 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

>>Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
>>many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ?

Corel Draw

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 19:23:13 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: AI ships and Darrians

>I also join others in recommending Banks' work as a source for the best
>starship names ever seen in SF.  Favorite examples:  A 50-km intergalactic
>starship with 250 million crew/residents named "So Much for Subtlety," and
>a civilian craft converted for combat named "No More Mr. Nice Guy."
>"Gunboat Diplomat" is also rather nice.  There are many *many* others.
>READ HIS BOOKS.

A couple of years ago, a good friend and I played too many rounds of
Drunk Jutland (take a drink every time you score a hit, everyone kills
their drink every time an English ship explodes<g>), and created a list
of names we used for the fleet of what would now be considered a 
pocket empire that our campaign had harassing the borders of the 3I.
Every once in a while one stills turns up in the campaign I have now.
I'm sure others who've studied the *cough* quaint naming of British
ships have made similar lists:

ISS Idiomatic, ISS Ignominious, ISS Indisposed, ISS Immaculate, 
ISS Immemorial (an old TL 9 ship of course), ISS Immethodical, 
ISS Immitigable, ISS Impecunious, ISS Implausible, ISS 
Imponderable, ISS Improbable, ISS Impudicity, ISS Inapprehensible,
ISS Inconceivable, ISS Incommensurable, ISS Incomprehensible,
ISS Incontinent, ISS Incredulous, ISS Indistinguishable, ISS 
Inextinguishable, ISS Insalubrious, ISS Interminable, ISS 
Intumescence, ISS Invidious, and the ISS Involuntary.

And of course, the ISS Indefatigable, because some things you just 
can't improve on :)

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:26:43 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Idea (skills related)

Moin David Smart,

> > Willpower  (EnIn)
> Nicely done, Glenn! I'm trying to get an MT campaign started and was
> trying to think of how to use the stats better in the task rolls.
> I was starting to look at how Determination was derived and your idea
> is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

	This combination of attributes for an assert is typical
	RuneQuest. BTW a good fantasy RPG IMHO

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:04:25 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: THUDDD 6 - TL10 - SDB

Moin folks,

	this is a prepost to invite the people here to improve my
	spellar and gramming, aehm - gaemmarg and schpelink, --- ;-)

	For anybody who has problem with the umlaute, the TeX notations 
	are M"acht'i and L"ur|3en. 

Thanks Kraehe,

	---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---

	Dear Lord Byron,

	Vulkan Werft is interested to hear that you are planing to
	invest in System Defence Boats to secure our glorius empire.
	We are very glad that you plan to build these boats here to
	strenghen local industry and development.

	As you know Vulkan Werf has a broad competition in building
	civilian ships, small armed freighters, so called Rock'n'Rollers.
	A lesser known aspect is that our sister company Lren, who
	produces the Lren Class destroyer, had a design already in
	the shelf since several years, based on their well known destroyer
	vargs and priates fear as it makes the best of TL10 Solomani
	technologie.

	Your sugested purchase order of 4000 MCr would alow us to
	produce six 300 dt Eman SDB's and one Mcht 900 dt Battle
	Tender capable of transfering 3 SDB's up to two parsecs wide.
	All ships are streamline wedge with an 80 armor, have fuel
	scopes and purification plants to crack their LHy in 3 hours,
	to make it posible to run a secure frontier refuling in 6-9 hours.

	Our well known Lren 69 MW ultra heavy laser (3-3-2-0)
	provides fire power in long distance fights. Two missile
	auto launcher are able to throw 6 missiles per round, an
	impact even larger ships should fear. Two sandcasters
	and three 65 Mj point defence (2:1/6-20 rof 200) lasers
	serving as active defence. EMM Masking, AEMS-5 Jammer
	and decoy dispencers enshure that a typical corsair will
	not even get a fire control lock. Combat history showed
	up that quality of sensors and the number of fire controls
	make the difference between a win and a loss, so the Eman
	SDB is equiped with a A0-P5-J5 suite and 3 fire controls
	of that range.  A dedicated 4th point defence fire control is
	able to shot 6 missiles point blank per round, but
	is also able to act as a 4-0-0-0 battery in dog fights.
	A crew of 14 is recomended on battle stations, and of course
	the damage control team has also crew stations, as the Eman
	is able of 4G evasion.  A second A0-P4-J0 sensor suite and
	avionics at chiefs control serve as a backup, so its always
	posible to bring the Eman home as long as there is a
	running plant. The Plant of course is our well known
	1000 MW Wendelstein C-N-O Fusion. Eman's HEPlaR and jumpdrive
	for the Mcht Tender are also compatible to our civilian
	products, so maintaince should be easy on any starport
	subsector wide around.

	The Mcht Battle Tender is a warship of its own!

	3 Lren laser, 3 missile launcher, 4 sandcaster,
	6 point defence laser with 6+2 fire controls stretch
	the weapon combination of the Eman while still leaving
	room for accomodations.  As a sensor suite we chosed
	an A10-P5-J5 to show up the flag, to drive the oponent
	between the silent lurking Emans. The 1750 MW Wendelstein
	from our well known 2999er bulk carrier and the Niehlsboah
	jump drive from our 1499er wilds Rock'n'Roller are the
	backbone of ship. Both are reliable parts tested in our
	civilian line. The Mcht is intended to provide repair
	and recreation for the Emans in longer fleet operations
	so it has a big repair shop with 4 MFFs, and a sickbay
	with 12 low berths.

	The Mcht has a crew of 45 and 5 officiers.  A full
	scale operation would involve 92 warriors, 14 of them
	noble officiers, so the cantine for the crew is distinct
	from the a salon for the officiers. Your dear Son, Sir
	van Werschenrege, as a I've heard the coming fleet comander
	would have a strong flagship with the Mcht, which would
	be together with the 5 Lren destroyers the twelved
	warship we build for our empire.

	With kindly regards,

		kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:17:27 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marathon weapons: MA-75B AR/GL

	Here's the last Marathon weapon I'm doing tonight.  Parental
Advisory Follows:


	WARNING: THIS THING IS A MONSTROSITY!  IT WOULD SCARE THE GUYS AT
FAMILLE SPOFULAM!  NO SANE SOPHONT WOULD CARRY ONE!


	I suppose it's only to be expected; video-game designers can hardly
be expected to let realism get in the way of coolosity.  In order to get
the grenade launcher numbers I had to fudge by running it through both the
small arms and heavy weapons sequences, and in the case of the cylinder,
work up the mass of the reciever by working backwards from the desired
magazine capacity.  So it's somewhat fudged, but I figure that given the
extreme nature of the design averaging the numbers from both sequences
would be a good way of reducing error.	I'm tempted to put a stock and
pistolgrip on the grenade launcher; a 38-cm 40-mm grenade launcher is
pretty nasty and quite funky all by itself.


	Any way you cut it, this thing is simply scary, though; blasting
away on full auto while firing the grenade launcher ought a) to thoroughly
kill whatever you're shooting at, b) thoroughly spatter it all over the
landscape, c) make one helluva racket, d) light up the sky for miles around
due to absence of flash hiders etc, and e) knock you on your butt.  And
it's heavy as all bloody hell, even using advanced materials throughout
(and if you thought the weight was bad, wait until you see the price tag!).
However, at least the weight helps keep the recoil within the realm of
(relative) sanity.  On to the description!


	The MA-75B is a 5X75mm assault rifle equipped with a 7-round
40X140mm rotary-magazine grenade launcher slung under the barrel.  It is
issued to UESC security troops.  It is a standard configuration (i.e.
magazine in front of pistol grip) assault rifle with a smooth and rounded
light gray plastic housing protecting the reciever and barrel.  The grenade
launcher is similarly streamlined and slung beneath the barrel in lieu of a
forestock.  No stock is provided for the grenade launcher; its trigger is
housed just ahead of the rifle magazine.  The weapon is notable for its
complete absence of sights; sighting is done along a raised ridge running
along the top of the housing.  It takes a 52-round banana magazine; the
grenade launcher has a 7-round rotary cylinder which accepts 7-grenade
"speedloader" magazines.

* T4 Stats:

Name: 		MA-75B Assault Rifle/Grenade Launcher.
Damage (Rifle): 4.
Damage (GL):	5* explosive.
TL: 		9.
Range (Rifle):	Short (42.33 m).
Range (GL):	Direct Fire: Short (23.7 m).
Shots (Rifle):	52.
Shots (GL):	7
Mass (empty):	11,47 Kg.
Mass (loaded):	16.57 Kg.
Reloads (Rifle):1.04 Kg.
Reloads (GL):	3.694 Kg.
Price:		11,614 Cr.

Reload price (Rifle):	33.42 Cr.
Reload price (GL):	369.32 Cr.

* I ran the grenade launcher through both the small arms and heavy weapons
sequences and averaged the results they gave me (6 and 4.64) to get this
figure.




FF&S/TTA design notes (Rifle):


* Cartridge (5X75mmSR Necked)

Caliber= 5mm
Rated energy= 2,200 joules
Base area= 19.63 mm^2
Propellant volume= 1,833 mm^3
Bullet length= 10mm
Case length= 65mm
Round length= 75mm
Round mass= 14.72 g
Ideal barrel length= 88 cm
Round price= 0.59 Cr. (Ordinary)
Designation= 5X75mmSR UESC Rifle


* Barrel (68 cm heavy rifled, TL-8 advanced materials)

Barrel length= 68 cm
Mod(Blen)= -0.22
Barrel mass= 1.53
Barrel price= 4080
Actual Muzzle Energy= 1,958 joules



* Reciever (TL-9 heavy full-auto, TL-8 advanced materials, stock, pistolgrip)

Reciever length= 23 cm
Reciever mass= 1.837 Kg
Reciever price= 2296.88 Cr


* Magazine (52-round banana-mag box)

Mass= 274 g empty, 1040.21 g full.
Price= 2.74 Cr empty, 33.42 Cr full.


* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 116 cm
Bulk: 7 (actually 7.733)
Basic Range: 42.33 m (Short Range in T4 range bands)
Damage: 4 (actually 4.2)
Recoil: 1 single-shot (actually 1.4), 6.65 on full-auto



FF&S/TTA design notes (Grenade Launcher).  Recall that these are a product
of both the small arms and heavy weapons sequence, although I stuck mostly
with the small arms one:


* Cartridge (40X140mm caseless grenade*)

Caliber= 40mm
Rated energy= 4,000 joules
Base area= 1256.64 mm^2
Propellant volume= 3333.33 mm^3
Bullet length= 0mm
Case length= 14cm
Round length= 140mm
Round mass= 527.78 g
Ideal barrel length= 10 cm
Round price= 52.76 Cr. (Ordinary)
Designation= 40X140mmC UESC Caseless HE Grenade

* Designed as per shotgun rounds in the small arms sequence.


* Barrel (10 cm heavy smoothbore, TL-8 advanced materials)

Barrel length= 10 cm
Mod(Blen)= 0
Barrel mass= 0.3*
Barrel price= 150
Actual Muzzle Energy= 4,000 joules

* Actually the mass using the normal materials; seemed way light to me so I
just charged the advance materials price and left it at that.



* Reciever (TL-9 7-shot double-action revolver, TL-8 advanced materials)

Reciever length= 28 cm
Reciever mass= 7.43 Kg
Reciever price= 3343.50 Cr


* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 38 cm
Mass: loaded 11.52 Kg, empty 7.73 Kg
Price: 3383.5 Cr.
Basic Range: 23.7 m (Short Range in T4 range bands)
Damage: 5
Recoil: 2.57


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 01:11:45 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S has arrived today...

At 10:13 PM 8/2/97 EST, you wrote:
<Snip>...
>Has anybody else got it yet. Have any opinions?
>

Received mine today!  No opinions yet...




Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 01:28:09 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Visio?

At 08:46 PM 8/1/97 EST, you wrote:
<Snip>...
>Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
>many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ? 
>...

Fractal Mapper, Corel Draw, DesignCAD.  VERY rarely, Campaign Cartographer...



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:53:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Want to Buy MT Referee's Gaming Kit

Hi folks, anyone got a copy of DGP's MT Referee's Gaming Kit (the thing
with the game screens and the adventure) that they are willing to sell or
trade.  

I'll either buy it, or I could trade a copy of JTAS 22 (the one with
article on Computer Implants, Contact Hlanssai, From Port to jump-point,
and The Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine).  Make me an offer. 

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 00:34:48
From: Joe Nassise <rockrat@concentric.net>
Subject: Traveller Fiction: Old and New?

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone knew whether GDW had managed to publish Paul
Brunette's final novel in his TNE trilogy, The Backwards Mask, before they
closed up shop.  If not, does anyone know what happened to the manuscript
or whether there has been any consideration to releasing it?  (I hate not
knowing the damn ending after reading the first two)

As a related issue, what is the policy for future Traveller novels?  Has
any consideration been given to them?  Is there a particular individual who
might be willing to look at submissions?

Feel free to simply e-mail me direct if anyone has any answers.

Thanks,
Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:32:33 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re:[T97#1632] Fencing Styles

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>
>On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:57:44 -0400, lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu
>(Mike Lee) wrote:
[snip]
>=46or your particular campaign, you've said that you've decided on
>swords.  What kind of swords?  Foils?  Cutlasses?  Broadswords?
>Sabres?  Scimitars?  Long Swords?  Short Swords?  Something else
>entirely?  What are the fighting techniques that you would need
>to use with the weapon?  What are the allowable target areas?
>Does anything change in a blood duel versus a touch duel versus a
>death duel?  How constrained is the Code Duello?  Can the party
>with choice of weapon choose other than the "standard" weapons
>form, or change the conditions under which they shall be used?
>Does material make a difference in technique (probably; weight
>and balance may be different; so too the response of the weapon
>to different kinds of impact)?  In short, _what_else_can_you_
>_tell_us_about_your_campaign_that_may_have_an_impact_on_the_
>_Code_Duello_?


	Bat'leh's?  What are you... some kind of panty-waisted limp-wristed
Klingon interior decorator?  Swords?  Let me snigger!  Really manly and
totally  testosterone-poisoned sophonts duel with chainsaws.  Big ones.  In
each hand.

	So what can you tell us about the Code Duello for chainsaws :)?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 07:38:31 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: new items & math question

Recieved FF&S and Gateway yesterday. 

Anyone know what the doubleheaded arrow in the math formulas mean?

ex.  Thrust = Accel <-> Volume <-> 10kN

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 03:34:09 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Used ships

Daniel Poulin wrote

> One of my player ended up with a used merchant ship in the character
> generation.  He wants to sell it (another character has a ship and it
> would be stupid to have more than one).

If the charecters were all generated at the same time they are only
_supposed_ to have 1 ship in TNE. "One die roll is made for the entire
adventuring group and all die roll modifiers are added together." (TNE
pg 37 column 2)

So unless the player is a replacement charecter or is for a player who
joined the game late he should not _have_ a ship of his own.  I would
like to suggest that as referee it might have been easier if you had not
let the player start the game with a ship, this would require modifying
the rules to suit your campaign. One good possibility would be trading
both ships in to get a third ship that is better than either (if the
ship the party already has is sellable). 

Even if the player does not want to use the ship I would suggest that he
lease it out rather than sell it, if you are not playing in a seting
where this is out of the question (such as the Wilds), this might be a
better answer.  That way if and when the ship they are using is
destroyed/hijacked (and if they are lucky enough to survive) they will
have a ship available. Leasing it out is also better for the charecter
because he still owns it and can earn money off of it, while not
potentially upseting the campaign by having a few MCr in his pockets.

> Does anyone have a rule out
> there for how much a used ship would be worth (I tried looking for a
> rule on wear and tear in FF&S in order to determine how much that ship
> would be worth but I can't find anything (there should be an index to
> that great - but painful to search through - book)).

Divide the value of the ship by its wear value.(The wear value was
determined when the ship was rolled up, see TNE pg 37-38.) Take this
number as a base and roll on the Actual Value Table (TNE pg 240). I
would suggest that selling a starship is an adventure, not merely a die
roll however.  In addition the selling price of a multi MCr starship
should not be as volatile as that of a ton of cargo (IMHO). I would
suggest dividing the variance from 100% on this table by 5 or so.  (So a
roll of 13 (200%) of book value would be 120% of actual value ((200%
- -100%)/ 5) + 100% for instance.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 03:56:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: critters on ships

SD Mooney wrote

> Leonard wrote:
> 
> >It'd take some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of
> >vacuum.
> 
> Say a xenomorph with a three stage lifecycle, starting with an egg, then a
> spiderlike stage with a long tail that impregnates victims with the last
> stage, a very nasty adult form. We could make it very nasty by giving it
> acid for blood, as well as the vacuum immunity.
> 
> ;-)

I wouldn't use a smiley if I were you.

Aliens are (arguably) canonical in Traveller - be very afraid.

The Besitary - Reticulan Parasite (JTAS #4 pg 28-30) by Chuck Kallenbach
III

CT stats for adults are

# Type 	   Weight  Hits	  Armor  Wounds & Weapons 
1 Parasite 120 kg  30/15  battle  9	teeth	A0 FO S3

attacks with surprise, flees if surprised
Acid blood inflicts 100-600 points dammage per turn

JTAS #4 was published in 1980 so it was too early to have stats for the
Alien queens :( 	(I just picked this issue up, now I only need issue #1
and I will achieve world dominat -- er complete my collection.)

Kallenbach listed his sources as the movie novelization, the comic book,
the poster mag, & the book about the movie & the article art is an exact
replica of a movie Alien.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:24:52 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

Moin SD Mooney,

> >Although I really loath this sort of bandwidth chewing fal-de-ral, how
> >many of us use Visio, or AutoCAD, or Microstation or Corel Flow, etc. ?
> 
> I use AutoCAD LT2 (and it bombs out all the time using Win3.11! and a
> Pentium 133) at work. Haven't got around to using it for Traveller yet....
> Except for a subsector blank hex grid...

	I use XFig - a PD Unix 2-D CAD program. The nicest thing
	in XFig is its plain text format for the graphic, so its
	posible to use a report generator for drawing the ship.
			( hav'nt done that yet ;-)
	As a Unix program, it can also produce LaTeX, Postscript
	and GIF. Take a look on my home page for the results.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1642
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Sunday, August 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1643



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Newton owners?
Re: Marathon weapons: MA-75B AR/GL
Solomani rim...M:0
[T97#1635] AI Ships and Darrians
re: Deep Space
Be gone for a while...
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
T41 CharGen
Dres Blades as weapons
Re: critters on ships
CD ROm
MT Rek's Gaming Kit
Re: T41 CharGen
Re: 
Re: Galactic v2.3 now available
FF&S & Gateway
Re: Star Trigger
Marathon WSTE-M Combat Shotgun
Definitive Sensor Rules: Part 0/5 (preamble)
Definitive Sensor Rules: Part 1/5 (Intro)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:44:54 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Newton owners?

Moin Bruce Johnson,

> Not to get into a platform debate, but Apple is NOT the only source for a
> Newton development environment. There is also a product called NS-Basic
> available shareware. Last I knew, Turbo-Pascal wasn't free either...

	to extend platform debate, a last word. the portfolio is the
	perfect ms-dos environment. you know ms-dos was a CP/M extender,
	and 256k is farily enough for a dos machine. extending CP/M concept
	further was a mistake of the flys on the shit.

> Finally, Apple DOES have a version of the Newton Toolkit available free on
> their web site. There are limitations to the package, and you can't sell
> programs written with it legally, but it's free for the download.

	Would it be posible to write programs for newton using a
	Sun3/50 (SunOS,BSD) or a Atari-Falcon (Mint/BSD) or a PC (Linux) ?
	( prefered languages Lisp,Smalltalk or Forth like )
	The newton still has a strange attraction, even as I will
	never install dos outside EMU, nor buy a Mac.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:43:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marathon weapons: MA-75B AR/GL

Nifty little toy, there, Roderick. Just one question, has Hengabar
actually let go of the prototype the FSY engineers showed him, or are they
still trying to pry it out of his hands? ;-)


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 23:17:47 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Solomani rim...M:0

Evening all,

I've finally started work on a conversion of the Solomani Rim to Milieu
0...which will eventually go on my website.  For now tho, I thought I'd
post the UPP data for y'all to comment on...

Here's part 1...the data had been regressed back to M:0 using TRTOOLS, and
the stellar data has also been 'corrected'...

The Darrukesh Subsector

The Darrukesh subsector is named for the short lived Darrukesh Empiriate, a
pocket empire which dominated this and the adjoining Gadurur (subsector D /
Magyar) subsectors from -541 to -416.  At it's height, the Empiriate
claimed 19 worlds in the two subsectors, but collapsed into civil war and
eventually anarchy following the death of it's last Autarch in -419.  Only
ruins mark the Empiriate's existence on many of these worlds now.
The region has suffered during the Long Night, perhaps more than any other
area in the Solomani Rim.  What little recovery that did take place was
largely wiped out by the collapse of the Darrukesh Empiriate.
Over the past half century, merchants from the Easter Concord began
cautious forays into the subsector, but have found little to encourage
further engagement.  The subsector is likely to remain a backwater for many
years to come.

Ishikuu       0105 E500000-0    Ba Va              012    M6 D M2 D   
Darrukesh     0106 A485830-B                       323    M0 V M4 D M0 D 
Iddamakur     0110 C779594-2                       403    M1 V M0 D   
Basil         0207 D84269A-A    Ni Po              334    K5 V     
Amkhalarug    0301 C443789-5    Po                 204    F7 V M3 D   
Atalanta      0304 E476266-0    Ag Lo Ni O:0106    203    M1 V M6 D   
Sidon         0308 D6B9000-0    Fl Lo Ni           103    K4 V     
Gramercy      0405 E330000-0    Ba De              000    F6 V     
Urud          0407 C100565-8    Lo Ni Va O:0207    802    M7 V     
Morgana       0501 CA9A720-6    Wa                 323    M2 V     
Ugarup        0502 C89A658-6    Ni Wa              102    K5 V     
Ixtloc        0509 E530000-0    Ba De              000    K4 V M6 D   
Rilke         0604 E59A385-3    Lo Ni Wa           520    G3 V     
Ishadar       0606 E000000-0    As Ba Va           025    K0 III M4 V   
Goshen        0609 E577500-7    Ag Lo Ni           300    M0 V M1 D   
Nukaash       0610 E247638-0    Ni                 720    K5 V M5 D   
Obrichenny    0701 E643543-4    Lo Ni Po           605    F5 IV     
Kropotkin     0703 D444549-5    Ag Lo Ni           820    M1 V     
Thamber       0704 B4548BC-7                       612    F6 V     
Athene        0706 E6B9000-0    Ba Fl              025    F6 V M7 D   
Leonore       0807 E310000-0    Ba                 012    M0 V     
Azun          0809 E4767A5-4                       210    M2 V     

The Darrukesh subsector contains 22 worlds with a total population of 982.4
million.  The highest tech level is 10 (A), at Basil.  the highest
population is 630 million, at Thamber.


Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 17:38:59 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#1635] AI Ships and Darrians

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:34:54 -0400, "Nick Munn"
<N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote:

>Subject: Re: AI ships and Darrians
>
>In my Traveller universe, sometime in the 1120s...

[...bandwidthectomy...]

>I have an early version of this adventure typed up, anyone=20
>interested?

=46reelance Traveller would be.  I really do plan on updating it in
the near future...

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:21:02 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Deep Space

>Its a weekend,so I can't be bothered working this out, but I think
>things are a bit more involved than that.  Current plans for looking
>for extra-solar planets (in a serious way) require a multi-element
>interferometer (to get the spacial resolution) operating in the IR (to
>separate planets from stars) and placed in space (because its IR).
>This technology is about cutting edge TL 9

The spacebased interefeometer (which in fact has to go out around
Jupiter's orbit) is needed to detect earthlike planets, and measure
their spectra, which is much, much harder than detecting gas giants.
HST could detect gas giants with a slightly better mirror and/or a
camera designed to compensate for the surface ripples. 6-10 m telescopes
on the ground should also be able to see GG's with sufficiently
good adapative optics.

Bruce
/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:00:11 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Be gone for a while...

Due to a worsening medical situation, I'm going to go back into the
hospital for a couple of weeks.  Right now, we're trying to get a hold of a
laptop w/modem for my use; but failing that, Kirsten will be printing out
my email and bringing it down to me (scratch one redwood forest!)

Get well messages, offers of support, or attempts to get dibs on my
Traveller collection can be mailed to this addy.  I ask that people please
mail Kirsten also (kirib@hooked.net) since she has the hard part of all
this, having to sit and wait while I go through various forms of
t/o/r/t/u/r/e  treatment.

Thanks to all for their support, and does anybody know where I can get my
hands on this TL 16 Solomani medical tech?  Because TL8 sucks.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 97 20:16 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In-Reply-To: <l03020905b0096aafee67@[194.119.133.213]>

SD,

> I second Craig's recommendations on Banks - his normal novels are also
> gripping. (Wasp Factory is a very grim, but strangely gripping almost

Grim? I thought it was funny...

> horror story). The Bridge, Espedair Street and The Crow Road are the ones
> I'd really recommend on the non-SF side. The new book "A song of stone'
> looks good, but I haven't finished it yet!

Not forgetting his best, Complicity. The only one that's not so good is 
Canal Dreams.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:29:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 CharGen

Here are some interesting (?) elements included in the current draft of T41
Chargen.

Charisma Cluster has been renamed Interact.

Nobles. For elevation DM+3 if Soc C+. Makes it harder to make the jump from
Baron to Count.

Added Rewards and Consequences tables for the final term as a Rogue 

Rewards 1D*Cr100,000, through legitimization of Masquerade position.
Consequences 1D*100 Cold Sleep weeks through Lost Identity.

Marine E1 rank is Recruit.
Marine O1 through O3 rank is Force Ensign, Force Lieutenant, and Force
Captain.

Marine, Navy and Army: Promotion DM +3 if Rank O6. Makes it harder to make
the leap from O6 to O7.

Merchant Academy: Graduation makes you a Merchant with rank O1.

Naval Academy. Graduate may select Marines with rank O1 instead.

I am working on the following concepts:

Direct Commission (probably based on Soc).
College after a career is complete.
A Marine Direct Commission program.
Second careers.


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:37:54 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Dres Blades as weapons

Two things to remember about most swords:

        1) The sharpness of the edge is usually unimportant
        2) Fencing weapons were often sharp, due to lack of need to
                withstand edge impact against metal

Most historical european weapons were not very sharp; most about on par
with the average american table knife (A butter knife, for Euros and those
with high soc and/or edu). THe idea was not to slash open veins, but to
break bones through armour. A Sharp blade will flake and fracture against
armour, while a semi-dull (won't cut flesh with simple pressure or slow
draw) will shatter bones, and with a quick draw-cut/slash, rip open skin. I
assure you, ripped open skin hurts far worse than a good clean cut. (Plenty
of experience doing slow-work with live-steel.)

As for efficacy of a dull blade, back in high school, my frend and  NJROTC
Cadet CO nearly lost an ear due to an accident with a MODERN dress sworn,
US Navy Officer standard issue pattern... He went from "Carry" (back of
blade resting upon shoulder) to "reverse carry" (an exhibition manoever
where the blade front is lightly held against the back of the shoulder),
overextending, and lopping his ear off... save for about 5mm at the front
of the ear. 25 stitches later, he's now a US Coast guard officer, with an
interesting (but hard to notice) scar. The blade was as sharp as the BACK
edge of a table knife, ie, 1mm wide, rounded, and smooth.


William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:32:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: critters on ships

Peter Newman wrote:

>SD Mooney wrote
>> Leonard wrote:
>> >It'd take some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of
>> >vacuum.
>>
>> Say a xenomorph with a three stage lifecycle, starting with an egg, then a
>> spiderlike stage with a long tail that impregnates victims with the last
>> stage, a very nasty adult form. We could make it very nasty by giving it
>> acid for blood, as well as the vacuum immunity.
>>
>> ;-)
>
>I wouldn't use a smiley if I were you.
>
>Aliens are (arguably) canonical in Traveller - be very afraid.

Better take off and nuke(1) it from orbit then (it's the only way(2) to be
sure)!

(1) Well, we could always meson gun it...

(2) I suppose a near-C rock may work even better ;-)

This would be a *real* baddie from the Core!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:37:59 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: CD ROm

My priority is to have the contents, no matter whether or not I can
"Replicate the look" of the source material.

I will be willing to proof and HTML files, at least for what I have.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:27:15 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: MT Rek's Gaming Kit

>Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 01:20:33 -0400
>From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
>Subject: MT Referee's Kit
>
>Hi,
>
>Just wondering; what exactly is this product, and what does it contain?
>
>Thanks,

2 tri-fold carboard GM's Screens for MT, with player info on 4 (back)
sides, and GM's info on 6 sides, and a front and back cover taking the
remaining two sides. (Note, using side to refer to an 8x11 section).

It contains most of the task tables, the demo tables, flow-charts for
personal combat, a dot-map of the Imperium and Surrounds, generated from
the Atlas files. It has UWP and UPP explanations. Encounter tables

The insert has several of DGP's equipment sheets.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 13:35:30 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T41 CharGen

At 03:29 PM 8/3/97 -0400, Marc wrote:

>Here are some interesting (?) elements included in the current draft of T41
>Chargen.
>
>Charisma Cluster has been renamed Interact.

This a bit clearer.. Molotov had excellent Liason skills without having an
ounce of charisma.

>Nobles. For elevation DM+3 if Soc C+. Makes it harder to make the jump from
>Baron to Count.

Excellent idea.  Keeps us from having shiploads of PCs who should be at the
Moot Hall.

>Added Rewards and Consequences tables for the final term as a Rogue 
>
>Rewards 1D*Cr100,000, through legitimization of Masquerade position.
>Consequences 1D*100 Cold Sleep weeks through Lost Identity.

Also good.. In experiementing, I found that people really could abuse the
Rouge.. this will slow them down a bit.

>Marine E1 rank is Recruit.
>Marine O1 through O3 rank is Force Ensign, Force Lieutenant, and Force
>Captain.

Immortality at last!  Now, about the NCO ranks... :)

>Marine, Navy and Army: Promotion DM +3 if Rank O6. Makes it harder to make
>the leap from O6 to O7.

Makes sense.. most governments are very careful about who they give stars
to.. also could make for some interesting back story.. a player rolls what
would have been a promotion to O7 except for the DM.. maybe he deserved the
promotion, but a rival sabotaged him..

>Merchant Academy: Graduation makes you a Merchant with rank O1.

Nice to have that clearly defined.

>Naval Academy. Graduate may select Marines with rank O1 instead.

I'm still a bit wedded to the "up from the ranks idea.." but I've seen a
lot of calls for Marine Academy grads also.. I guess the Stones' were
right, you can't always get what you want..

>I am working on the following concepts:
>
>Direct Commission (probably based on Soc).

If the vision for the Imperium is based on the British Empire during the
Victorian Era, this makes a great deal of sense.. second sons and
ne'er-do-wells being shuffled off into the service.. makes the nobility
feel more like a ruling class.

>College after a career is complete.

Possibly allowed by sacrificing half of the allowed benefit rolls?

>A Marine Direct Commission program.

I'm against this.. Since the Marine Force gets the real dirty jobs, I don't
think that they would accept for a minute some fop with family connections.
 Send him to the Navy, where he can be assaistant club officer.

>Second careers.

Allowed with no benefit rolls from first career, and a negative DM for
enlistment.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:03:51 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: 

> or out of the laser's arc of fire - before the laser gets its next
> shot. That's the fun part.
> 
> Bruce


Airborne lasers-the end of me.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:41:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Galactic v2.3 now available

At 08:34 PM 7/28/97 -0700, Jim Vassilakos wrote:

>  * Jens Maskus contributed the Gateway Sector (originally by DGP)

Someone wrote that Gateway was originally by Judges Guild.
JG got Gateway and Ley sectors during Traveller's "land
grant" licensing days, but the Gateway that appears in
Imperial Atlas and formed the basis for DGP's Gateway
is not the JG one. The only thing the same is the name.
Your description stands.

Related to this, Old Expanses was originally developed
by FASA, with portions published in High Passage and
Far Traveller magazines. Since the Keith Bros. were 
heavily involved with this, that material has stayed
"canon." 

JB

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: FF&S & Gateway

How is the new FF&S?  Also, what exactly is Gateway?

Thanks


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  3 Aug 97 22:11:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:29:01, pould@netcom.ca Wrote...

> They must make sure that the Sword World will not learn about
> the fact that the trigger doesn't work (at least until some
> time after the Collapse and the beginning of the Regency).
    From what I vaguely remember of the pseudophysics desribed in the Darrian's
module the problem resulted from the fact that the Darrian's discovered records
from the original experiment that caused the sub nova flare.  Technical
schematics of the original probe, early data and such like and it didn't match
what they had on hand in their current (circa 1100+) Special Arm units.  So the
Darrian's started an emergency re-engineering to make their weapons match the
millenium old specs.
    Their diplomats and leader started wearing psionic screens because "they
knew" the Star Trigger was a bluff suddenly.  About a year or so later the
Darrian's had re-engineered their Star Trigger weapons to match the recovered
specs and they got back data matching the original data from the early tests.
Now WE, the overviewing GM's and Player who read AM8, know that the newly
re-engineered Star Triggers are worthless.  BUT the Darrian's believe they work
and it's that belief that the Zhodani telepaths read in the minds of the
Darrian's diplomat and leaders and thus are detered.  Because the Darrians
BELIEVE their Star Trigger works and in all likelyhood They Would Know. ;)
    As I remember the described pseudophysics in AM8, my copy is packed away,
the new Star Trigger wouldn't work either.  Mostly because the original sub
nova flare was a complete and utter accident.  Something to do with how all
those meson beams communicating with the probe deep within the stellar core
were interacting if memory serves.  OC the use of the Star Trigger is NOT
something you want to have happen in your local space.  The original one fried
electronics half a dozen parsecs away when the wave front got there.  And it
didn't do the Darrian's Primary Star any good either. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:46:18 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marathon WSTE-M Combat Shotgun

	Another terror weapon from Marathon 2: Durandal.  The manual
describes it as "a brutal tool of mayhem".  Visualize a sawed-off 12-gauge
double-barreled shotgun with a lever action activated by twirling the gun
around in one hand like Arnie in T2.  It has a long pistol grip and ribbed
forestock covering the twin side-by-side tubular magazines slung under the
barrels, which are 15 cm in length.  The weapon itself measures 45 cm
length overall, or just a hair less than 18 inches.  I've designed it with
TL-8 advanced materials, which keeps the weight down at the expense of
price.

	In Marathon, you never have to reload it; you keep on blasting away
until you run out of shells.  I've implemented a more realistic magazine
capacity (in this case 2 shells per magazine); thus the weapon can be fired
three times before reloading assuming the magazines are full and there's a
round in each chamber.  With one in each hand, that'd give the shooter 6
2-barrel blasts before reloading, and boy will he look studly while he's
blasting away.  Ross Coburn can testify to this, as I've whacked him with
WSTE-M's once or twice in netted M2 games :).

	Under my house rules, this weapon benefits from a positive DM to
hit due to the shortness (15 cm or 6 inches) of its barrels, and suffers
from increasingly reduced damage at increasing range bands.



T4 Stats:

Name: 		WSTE-M Combat Shotgun.
Damage: 	6 (Special; resolved as two separate 3-die volleys).
TL: 		9.
Range:		Very Short.
Shots:		3 (3 2-shell blasts).
Mass (empty):	3.3 Kg (3.66 loaded).
Reloads:	0.366 Kg.
Price:		6,962 Cr.


FF&S/TTA design notes:


* Cartridge (20X65mm shotgun)

Caliber= 20mm
Rated energy= 1,000 joules
Base area= 314 mm^2
Propellant volume= 833 mm^3
Bullet length= 0mm
Case length= 65mm
Round length= 65mm
Round mass= 61 g
Ideal barrel length= 10 cm
Round price= 0.61 cr/round ordinary
Designation= 10X65 WSTE-M C.S.


* Barrel (15 cm TL-9 advanced materials smoothbore)

Barrel length= 15 cm
Mod(Blen)= +0.5
Barrel mass= 0.225
Barrel price= 112.5 Cr
Actual Muzzle Energy= 1,250 joules


* Reciever (TL-9 advanced materials heavy lever action double)

Reciever length= 15 cm
Reciever mass= 2.25 Kg
Reciever price= 6,750 Cr.
Grip: 0.5 kg, +15 cm long


* Magazine (2-round tubular, doubled)

Mass= 244 g empty.
Price= 2.44

* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 45 cm
Bulk: 3
Mass: loaded 3.66 Kg, empty 3.294 Kg
Price: 6,692 Cr.
Basic Range: 9.72 m (Very Short Range in T4 range bands)
Damage: fudged based on T4 shotgun values; I've reduced the damage due to
the short barrels.
Recoil: 4.88

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:19:15 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitive Sensor Rules: Part 0/5 (preamble)

I'm now posting my definitve sensor rules to the list, in 5 parts.
Ideally, comments should probably be sent straight to me or gdw-beta...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:20:32 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitive Sensor Rules: Part 1/5 (Intro)

Exectutive summary: these are the definitve rules for using the new sensors 
in FFS2 (the printed version is somewhat incomplete) and also definitive
rules for converting old sensors to the new system.

As part of the FFS2 project, I offered to help with better passive sensor
rules, based on realistic simulations of detector properties, background at
different wavelength, and brightness of a target spacecraft at different
wavelength.  Target signature was modelled with three main components:
reflected starlight, thermal emission from the hull, and thermal
emission from waste-heat radiators; the radiators were based on the
assumptions that went into FFS2's powerplant rules (please - no debate about
power plant radiator realism!) and were usually the dominant component, though
reflected sunlight is also very high for non-black starships.

I may write a long article about the results later, but the main result
was that even very small sensors can achieve initial detection - though 
not necessarily a position accurate enough for fire control - at very
long ranges; even up to millions of km for a TL-8 5-m diameter sensor (a P1
in T4 terms) for a 100-ton non-military target.

Based on this I set out to write more realistic sensor rules. Improvements
include a straightforward system for calculating initial detection ranges
for any target (based on some suggestions by Anders, mostly). This seems
especially useful to roleplayers - it's nice to have rules that define
precisely how far away (for example) at Type S can detect a powered-off
lifeboat parked next to an asteroid. it's also useful for heavyduty
military gearheads - it answers questions like "can a big military
sensor array detect a starship refuelling at a comet in the Kuiper belt".

The rules also make a distinction
between detecting a target and achieving a fire control solution, and 
adding a much wider range of possible sensors (it always bugged me that any
medium-sized FFS ship could fit the best possible sensor.) 

Unfortunately, while I know a lot about visible/IR sensors, I know very
little about radar - in the absence of a radar expert, Dave and I put together
active sensor rules through the ancient Vilani technique of "Making It Up."
In particular we tried to adjust
things so that active sensors were roughly game-balanced with passive sensors
(though I guess that this somewhat overrates active sensors.) 

Also unfortunately, the rules as they appear in FFS2 are somewhat incomplete;
they include the details of how big these new sensors are, but not much detail
on how to actually use these sensors in combat or role-playing.
So, as a preview and general service, I figured I'd post my (draft) sensor
rules here. I'll also include rules for converting FFS/QSDS/SSDS sensors and
ships to the new system. FFS2 includes much more detail for designing ships
with sensors - including very large ones - optimized for this new system, 
new ECM options, etc., and is recommended for people wanting to take full
advantage of these rules.

I've broken the rules up into three parts for this posting: Basic (Part 2), 
Intermediate (Part 4), and Advanced (Part 5), with Basic covering all you need
or simple spacecraft operations in a free space, intermediate adding more 
terrain options and a different treatment of active sensors, and advanced 
adding some even-more-complicated terrain rules for exotic solar systems.
The rating/conversion rules get their own section (Part 3.)

If any Traveller web site maintainers are interested in this, I'd be willing
to see it posted on a (non-IG) web site. If IG is interested in this, I'd
be willing to negotiate turning it into a JTAS article or a rules section
for a future book (like "Imperial Squadrons", or NAH.)

The rules aren't particularly tied to any combat system. They are
oriented towards role-playing with a referee keeping enemy ships hidden,
but could be used for two-player combat with a defending player keeping their
ships secret or both players using dummy counters a la BR.

[Some designer's notes are intersperesed in square brackets like this.]
[These are drafts. Not all the exotic situations have been modelled
in detail; some numbers are estimated and will change. I'm also willing
to tweak models for game balance and would *love* to hear from people
using these in role-playing situations or combat.]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1643
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1644



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Definitive Sensor Rules: Part 2/5 (Basic)
Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Ratings/conversion from T4&FFS1)
Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 4/5 (Intermediate)
Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Marathon .44 MMC last revision (I promise!)
Traveller IRC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:21:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitive Sensor Rules: Part 2/5 (Basic)

Part 2: Basic Rules

Sensors are used for two main purposes. The first is DETECTING a 
previously unknown target. The second is obtaining a fire-control LOCK on
a detected target.

The target detection attempts are resolved by evaluating the
SIGNAL of each attempt using the formula below, and then comparing the
signal to the success chart (Table 1) to determine the difficulty of the
sensor operator's task. The SIGNAL must be >=0.0 for there to be any chance
of detection; if the signal is sufficiently high detection is automatic.


Very important: only one passive and one active (if active sensors are on)
sensor can be used per sensing ship per
target per turn, even if the sensing ship has multiple sensors. [This is a 
game-balance decision; because the T4 task system is so coarse and 
even Impossible tasks so easy, it would otherwise always be better to put
two cheap sensors on a ship than one expensive one. The intermediate rules
do allow a ship to use multiple sensors for different purposes (like scanning
different arcs.)]

Table 1: Detection Task Difficulty

SIGNAL	Difficulty

<0	target cannot be detected under any circumstances.
0.0	Impossible	(TNE: Impossible)
0.5	Staggering	(TNE: Formidable)
1.0	Average		(TNE: Average)
>=1.5	Automatic detection
 


SIGNAL is calculated as follows:

SIGNAL = SENSITIVITY- RANGE + SIGNATURE +(MODIFIERS) 

SENSITIVITY is the sensitivity rating of the sensor attempting the
detection (determined in the design process.)

SIGNATURE is the target's signature, also determined during the 
design process but sometimes modified for specific conditions or actions.
Active sensors use the targets active (radar) signature.
Starships are rated with two different passive signatures. For the basic
system, use only the target's emitted (infrared) signature.
MODIFIERS will adjust the target's signature based on its actions.

RANGE is the range factor, taken from the range chart (Table 2) - note that
these range factors are chosen to match what I was told the T4.1
range bands would be.

Table 2: Range factors

Range:								RANGE
km			BL Hexes	T4 name	T4.1 name	term	
<=500						regional	8
<=5,000			0			continental	9
<=50,000		1-2		VS	planetary	10
<=500,000		3-16		S	far orbit	11
<=5,000,000		17-160		M and L			12
<=50,000,000		161-1600				13
<=500,000,000 (3 AU)				interplanetary	14
<=5,000,000,000	(30 AU)				outsystem	15
<=50,000,000,000 (300 AU)			"oort"		16
<=500,000,000,000 (3000 AU)					17

Finally, the target's signature is modified by the following actions or
conditions:

Condition	  Active Sig.	  Passive Sig.
		  (radar)	  (emitted/IR)
Non-maneuvering		0.0		-0.5
Shutdown		0.0		-1.0
Using active sensors   +1.0             +1.0
Surprised	       +0.5             +1.0
same hex as planet     -1.0             -0.5
 or asteroid
in atmosphere	        0.0             -0.5
landed		       -2.0             -1.0

Explanations:

Non-maneuvering: no use of maneuver drive (except micro-evasion) during past
turn.
Shutdown: all power (except life support and passive sensors) shut down - 
 may not fire weapons or maneuver until powerplant restarted (which normally
 requires one full turn.)
Using active sensors: ships using any using any active sensor any active
	sensor must annouce this to all ships with functional active or
	passive sensors within the same solar system. [Yes, that's correct,
	within the solar system; there's an intermediate rule that defines
	precisely how far you can see an active sensor, but the answer is a
	long, long, way. For a real-world example, military over-the-horizon
	ICBM early warning radars (about a sensetivity 10 or 11) can be
	detected by an Arcebo-sized radio telescope (about a sensitivity
	14 PEMS) several parsecs away (range factor 19.)]
Surprised: Targets that are unaware of the presence of any enemy ship (ref's
	discretion) are significantly easier to detect. [Ships are normally
	assumed to manage their thermal radiators to radiate most heat away
	from suspected enemy craft - which is impossible if you don't know
	there are any enemy craft out there.]
Planet: targets within the same 30,000km BL hex as a planet or asteroid are
	assumed to be using it for cover wherever possible.


In the basic system, once a target is detected, the referee should inform
the sensor operator of that fact and the target's signature, and place the 
ship's counter on the map (if you're using one). In the basic system ships
remain detected forever (or until they move far enough away to reduce their
SIGNAL to -1.0). After one turn of detection, the referee can inform the
sensor operator of the tonnage and basic configuration of the target; after
two turns, the class.


Fire control:

At the most basic level, you can just allow any ship to fire on any
detected target.

For slightly more detail, at the instant of weapons fire, the firing ship 
must obtain a succesful FIRE CONTROL LOCK on the target. The same procedure 
as above is used, but the SIGNAL is reduced by -1.5 - firing on a target is 
much more difficult than merely detecting it. All other modifiers apply.
Optionally, targets without a fire control lock may be fired on, but the fire
task is increased by 3 difficulty levels.


Examples:
A Scout ship has a passive sensor sensitivity of 14 and an
active sensor sensitivity of 12. It is attempting to detect a trader with a
active (radar) signature of 0 and a passive emitted (IR) signature of 0.
At interplanetary (500,000,000km) range detection the passive SIGNAL is
         14        +   0       -  14     =    0
      sensitivity   signature    range      SIGNAL
and detection is an Impossible task. The active SIGNAL is 12 + 0 - 14 = -2
and the target cannot be detected with active sensors.

If the range were 5,000,000km, the passive signal would be 14 + 0 - 12 = 2
and detection would be automatic.

If the target had shut down its power plant at 5,000,000 km, the passive
signal would be 14 + 0 - 1.0 - 12 = 1 (average task.)

If the scout ship was then attempting to obtain a fire control lock at 
a range of 500,000km, the signal would be 14 - 1.5 + 0 - 1.0 - 11 = 0.5
(formidable task) - but the trader would be unable to return fire (since
its power plant is shut down.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:23:25 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Ratings/conversion from T4&FFS1)

Part 3: Rating ships.

Note that FFS2 includes a much wider range of sensors for use on newly-
designed ships - including much more powerful active sensors and huge
arrays for use on capital ships. It also includes advanced stealth and
ECM options.

FFS2 also distinguishes between sensors that are optimized for detecting new
targets ("scanners") and those optimized for fire-control ("trackers") but
sensors converted from FFS are considered to be dual-mode tracker/scanners
(as are most high-TL sensors in FFS2), except for LADARs.

Sensor ratings:

Passive sensors from FFS/QSDS/SSDS are converted to the new system 
using Table 3:

Table 3: Passive Sensor Conversion Table

FFS range(hexes)		Sensitivity
or T4 rating
0.01 - 0.1			13
1-2				13.5
3-4				14
5-6				14.5
7-8				15.0


Active sensors use Table 4:

Table4: Active Sensor Conversion Table

FFS range(hexes)		Sensitivity
or T4 rating
0.01-0.1			11.5
1-7				12.0
8-16				12.5


LADAR sensors use Table 5 - but LADARs are considered "Trackers", and
can only be used for fire control locks or for maintaining contact with
previously-detected targets.

Table 5: LADAR Sensor Conversion Table

FFS range(hexes)		Sensitivity
or T4 rating
0.01-0.1			12.0
1-7				12.5
8-16				13.0



SIGNATURES:

A ship's active (radar) signature is calculated based on its surface
area using the following table:

The base radar signature is given by the following table:

surface area    radar signature		(hull size)

0.1-9m^2               -0.5		<1 ton
10-999m^2               0		1-200 tons
1000-99999m^2          +0.5		200-90,000 tons
100000-9999999m^2      +1		100,000 tons+

The hull size column is provided for T4 designs whose surface area is
not given in the USP - use the hull size column instead.
EMM decreases radar signature by 0.5.





The passive emitted (or infrared) signature is calculated based on a ship's
power plant output. (For T4 ships that don't list the power plant output,
use (Power Plant Rating * Tons / 2).)

Power            signature
0.000-0.009 MW    -2.5
0.01-0.09 MW      -2.
0.1-0.9 MW        -1.5
1 -9 MW           -1
10 MW             -0.5
100 MW             0
1000 MW            0.5 
10000 MW           1
100000 MW          1.5
1000000 MW         2

Ships with Stealth reduce their emitted signature by 0.5. Ships with
EMM reduce their signature by 1.0

(as an Advanced rule, increase the power by 0.0001 MW per m2 of surface
area to include heat loading due to absorbed sunlight - this is normally
negligible except for ships with power plants shut down.)

(also as an advanced rule, rather than using the generic -0.5 
non-manuevering or -1.0 shutdown bonus in combat, designers may rate
the emitted signature at different power levels (such as with all systems
except life support shut down, or with power-using weapons not firing.))



The passive reflected (visible) signature, used in the Intermediate and
Advanced rules, is calculated based on a ship's surface area:

surface area    	reflected signature	hull size

1-9m^2          	  -2			<1 ton
10-99m^2        	  -1.5			1-95 tons
100-999m^2      	  -1			100-200 tons	
1000-9999m^2    	  -0.5			300-3000 tons
10000-99999m^2   	   0			4000-100,000 tons
100000-999999m^2  	   0.5			200,000 - 1,000,000 tons
1000000-9999999m^2  	   1.0

(The hull size table is again provided for lazy T4 owners.)

Ships with TL10+ EMM reduce their reflected signature by 0.5

These base signatures are for normal TL10+ starships, which are assumed
to have "chameleon" hulls that can change color and pattern. This capability
is normally used for adverstising and thermal management, but in a combat
situation the hull is adjusted to be as black as possible (typically 99%
black for a civilian hull.)

Starships without this color-changing coating - TL9- ships, or (optionally)
some higher TL cut-rate civilian ships - increase their reflected
signature by +1. TL8-9 ships with Stealth ignore this penalty.

Example: A TL-12 100dTon scoutship has a spherical hull (with an
area of 600 m2), and a power plant output of 150 MW. It has an active
(radar) signature of 0.0. 
It would have a reflected signature of -1. ITs effective power plant
output is 150 MW + (600x0.0005)=150.3 MW, for an emitted signature of 0.
If the ship was equipped with EMM the emitted
signature would be reduced to -1.0 (and the active and reflected to -0.5
and -2.0 respectively.) If the ship was then running
without manuevering, with the powerplant running at 50 MW,
the emitted signature would be reduced still further to -1.5.
Even with the power plant completely shut off, the effective power
is still 0.3 MW, for an emitted signature (including masking) of -2.5
The scout has a T4 sensor rating of A2 P3, which converts to a new
sensor rating of A12 P14

A designer would record this on the ship record as follows:
Active Sig:                 (-0.5)
Passive Sig (emit.refl):    (-1/-2) 
			    (-1.5/-2 at 50 MW power)
			    (-2.5/-2 when shut down)

Or (the short form): Signature (act/emit/ref): -1/-1/-2




(c) 1997 Bruce Macintosh. Traveller is a trademark of Imperium Games.
Permission granted to reproduce electronically on the World Wide Web.
Permission is *not* granted to Imperium Games to reproduce this text in any
printed supplement without prior consultation with the author.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:23:55 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 4/5 (Intermediate)

Part 4: Intermediate rules:

There are fpur main changes to the basic detection process. The first
is a different detection table for active and passive sensors, to reflect
the fact that active sensor detection probabilities drop off steeply:

Revised Table 1: detection task difficulties:

SIGNAL	active detection	passive detection
	task			task
<0	(target cannot be detected under any circumstances)
0	Impossible		Impossible
0.5	Average			Staggering (TNE: Formidable)
1.0	(automatic detection)	Average
1.5				Easy
2.0				(automatic detection.)

The second is a range table with fractional range bands (in-between the
T4 range bands):

Revised table 2: Range factors

Range:								RANGE
km			BL Hexes	T4 name	T4.1 name	term	
<=500						regional	8
<=1,600								8.5
<=5,000						continental	9
<=16,000		0					9.5
<=50,000		1-2			planetary	10
<=160,000		3-5		VS			10.5
<=500,000		6-16		S	far orbit	11
<=5,000,000		17-50		M			12
<=16,000,000		51-160		L			12.5
<=50,000,000		161-500					13
<=160,000,000	1 AU	501-1600				13.5
<=500,000,000	3 AU				interplanetary	14
<=1,600,000,000	10 AU						14.5
<=5,000,000,000	30 AU				outsystem	15
<=16,000,000,000  100 AU					15.5
<=50,000,000,000  300 AU			oort		16
<=500,000,000,000 3000 AU					17

The third change is that all ships have two different passive signatures,
their emitted (infrared) signature, and their reflected (visible) signature.
A passive sensor detection attempt must be evaluated against whichever of 
these provides the higher total signal. Normally this will be the emitted
signature.

The fourth is that detected targets no longer remain automatically detected
but must be reaquired each turn; however, previously-detected targets get
a 1.5 increase to their signal, which generally makes repeat detection
automatic. (Note that this modifier does NOT apply to fire control locks.)

Finally, the intermediate rules use a vastly expanded table of
terrain and condition modifiers. These can be broken down broadly into
effects that modify the target's signature and effects that modify the
sensor's sensitivity:

Modifiers to signature

Condition	  Active Sig.	  Passive Sig.	   Passive Sig.
		  (radar)	  (emitted/IR)	   (reflected/vis)
	Target actions:
Non-maneuvering		+0.0		-0.5		 0.0
Shutdown		+0.0		-1.0		 0.0
Firing beam weapons	+0.5		+1.0		+0.5
Launching msls/SC	+0.5		+0.0		+0.5	
Using active sensors    +1.0            +1.0		+1.0
Evading			-0.5		-0.5		-0.5
using HEPlaR 1-2G	+0.0		+0.5		+0.0
using HEPlaR 3-20G	+0.0		+1.0		+0.0
using HEPlaR 21G+	+0.0		+1.5		+0.0

	Surprise modifiers:
Surprised	        +0.5            +1.0		+0.5
Alert		        +0.0		+0.5		+0.0
Battle Stations		+0.0		+0.0		+0.0

	Terrian modifiers:
same hex as planet      -1.0            -1.0		-0.5
 or asteroid
in shadow		-0.0		-0.0		-2.0
landed			-2.0		-1.0		-0.5
landed and camoflaged	-2.0		-1.0		-1.0
near large GG		-0.5		-0.5		-0.0
	
	Atmosphere modifiers
In atmosphere  6+	 0.0		-0.5		-0.0
In atmos 8-9		 0.0		-1.0		-0.5
In atmos A+		-0.5		-1.5		-1.0
upper GG atmosphere	-1.0		-2.0		-1.5
lower GG atmosphere	-1.5		-2.5		-2.5
deep GG atmosphere	-2.5		-4.5		-4.5

	General modifiers (not for FC locks):
Target was detected	+1.5		+1.5		+1.5
  last turn
Target was detected     +0.5            +0.5            +0.5
  within last 10 turns

Non-maneuvering: no use of maneuver drive (except micro-evasion) during past
turn.
Shutdown: all power (except life support and passive sensors) shut down - 
 may not fire weapons or maneuver until powerplant restarted (which normally
 requires one full turn.)
Firing beam weapons opens covers exposing (hot) weapon focal plane arrays
   and reducing stealthing. Firing missiles or launching/recovering small
   craft similarly increases signatures

Using active sensors: ships using any using any active sensor any active
	sensor must annouce this to all ships with functional active or
	passive sensors within a range equal to the active sensor range +
	passive sensor range minus 5 (which is normally the whole solar
	system and occasionally the whole subsector.) 
Surprised: Targets that are unaware of the presence of any enemy ship (ref's
	discretion) are significantly easier to detect. See the surprise
	rules in BR for details - ships can either be completely surprised, on
	alert status (some battle stations manned but no hostiles detected)
	or at battle stations with an enemy detected (no modifiers.)
Evasion: succesful BL/BR evasion attempt
HEPlaR (and Fusion rockets) have a large signature penalty. 
Planet: targets within the same 30,000km BL hex as a planet or asteroid are
	assumed to be using it for cover wherever possible.
  Ships in shadow (generally any ship in the same hex as a planet or asteroid
  may opt to be in shadow) have a much lower reflected (visible-light) sig.
  
  Landed ships are any ship that takes one turn to land on a planet or
   asteroid surface; they are assumed to set down to take advantage of
   terrain, and to dump waste heat into the object rather than radiate it.
   Modifier is not cumulative with "same hex".

  Landed ships may be camoflaged - this requires one person-hour per 100 dTons
   of ship, is a Formidable task (Ship Tactics or Sensor), and requires
   camoflage equipment (MCR 0.01 and 0.1 tons per 100 dTons of ship, comes
   free with EMM or any other masking.) Ships lose their camoflage
   advantage if they fire weapons or (obviously) maneuver. Clearing the 
   camoflage requires 10 person-minutes per 100 dTons of ship.

Being within an atmosphere (or a gas giant atmosphere) reduces
detectability and sensor sensitivity. 
These modifiers are cumulative with "landed" or "same hex" as 
applicable.
Ships in a gas giant atmosphere 
can be at one of three depths - upper, lower, and deep. Moving from one to 
another requires one turn.

Sensitivity modifiers:

Condition	  Active Sense.	  Passive Sense.   Passive Sense.
		  (radar)	  (emitted/IR)	   (reflected/vis)

In atmosphere  6+	 0.0		-0.0		-0.5
In atmos 8-9		 0.0		-0.5		-1.0
In atmos A+		-0.5		-1.0		-1.5
upper GG atmosphere	-1.0		-2.0		-1.5
lower GG atmosphere	-1.5		-2.5		-2.5
deep GG atmosphere	-2.5		-4.5		-4.5

Intermediate example: A scout (A12 P14) in space is trying to detect another
EMM-equipped scout (active/emitted/reflected signature -1.0/-1.0/-2.0).
The target is landed (sig modifiers -2/-1/-0.5). The range is 5,000,000km
(RF=12.) The active signal is 12 -2 -1 -12 = -3, undetectable. The
passive emitted signal is 14 -1 -1 -12 = 0, an Impossible task.
The passive reflected signal is 14 -2 -0.5 -12 = -0.5, lower than the
emitted signal, so the emitted signal is used.
The landed scout sees a passive signal of 14 -1.0 -12 = 1.0, an 
Average task, and will almost certainly get the first shot.



(c) 1997 Bruce Macintosh. Traveller is a trademark of Imperium Games.
Permission granted to reproduce electronically on the World Wide Web.
Permission is *not* granted to Imperium Games to reproduce this text in any
printed supplement without prior consultation with the author.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:24:24 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

Part 5: Advanced 

The advanced rules add many more sensitivity modifiers

Condition	  Active Sig.	  Passive Sig.	   Passive Sig.
		  (radar)	  (emitted/IR)	   (reflected/vis)
Non-maneuvering		+0.0		-0.5		 0.0
Shutdown		+0.0		-1.0		 0.0
Firing beam weapons	+0.5		+1.0		+0.5
Launching msls/SC	+0.5		+0.0		+0.5	
Using active sensors    +1.0            +1.0		+1.0
Evading			-0.5		-0.5		-0.5
using HEPlaR 1-2G	+0.0		+0.5		+0.0
using HEPlaR 3-20G	+0.0		+1.0		+0.0
using HEPlaR 21G+	+0.0		+1.5		+0.0
Chem rocket 1-10G	+0.0		+0.5		+0.0
Chem rocket 11+G	+0.0		+1.0		+0.0
Surprised	        +0.5            +1.0		+0.5
Alert		        +0.0		+0.5		+0.0
Agressive baffling vs	+0.0		-1.0		+0.0
  one target
Agressive baffling vs.	+0.0		+0.5		+0.0
  all others
same hex as planet      -1.0            -1.0		-0.5
 or asteroid
in shadow		-0.0		 0.0		-2.0
landed			-2.0		-1.0		-0.5
landed and camoflaged	-2.0		-1.0		-1.0
near large GG		-0.5		-0.0		-0.0
In atmosphere  6+	 0.0		-0.5		-0.0
In atmos 8-9		 0.0		-1.0		-0.5
In atmos A+		-0.5		-1.5		-1.0
upper GG atmosphere	-1.0		-2.0		-1.5
lower GG atmosphere	-1.5		-2.5		-2.5
deep GG atmosphere	-2.5		-4.5		-4.5
within 30 degrees	
	of star		-0.5		-0.5		-0.5
Target was detected	+1.5		+1.5		+1.5
  last turn (N/A to FC)
Target was detected     +0.5            +0.5            +0.5
  within last 10 turns (N/A to FC)

Target location:
   Inner zone		-0.5		+0.0		+1.0
   Habitable zone	+0.0		+0.0		+0.0
   Outer zone		+0.0		+0.0		-1.0
     >100 AU		+0.0		+0.0		-2.0
     >1000 AU		+0.0		+0.0		-3.0
     >10000 AU		+0.0		+0.0		-4.0
      or deep space

Ships that have detected an enemy target can employ "agressive baffling",
	turing their radiators away from that single target but increasing
	their signature elsewhere.
Being in the same arc as the star (in the Habitable zone or closer) relative
to the sensing ship decrease detectability. (BL/BR players should designate
one direction to be the "sun" direction and apply this bonus to any target
in the same 60 degree arc.)


Sensitivity modifiers:

Condition	  Active Sense.	  Passive Sense.   Passive Sense.
		  (radar)	  (emitted/IR)	   (reflected/vis)

In atmosphere  6+	 0.0		-0.0		-0.5
In atmos 8-9		 0.0		-0.5		-1.0
In atmos A+		-0.5		-1.0		-1.5
upper GG atmosphere	-1.0		-2.0		-1.5
lower GG atmosphere	-1.5		-2.5		-2.5
deep GG atmosphere	-2.5		-4.5		-4.5

Sensor scanning		+0.5		+0.5		+0.5
  single 30 deg arc
Sensor scanning		+1.0		+1.0		+1.0
  single hex

Sensor location:
   Inner zone		+0.0		-0.5		-0.5
   Habitable zone	+0.0		+0.0		+0.0
   Outer zone		+0.0		+1.0		+1.0

Dust level (inner or habitable zone only):
   Normal		+0.0		+0.0		+0.0
   None			+0.0		+0.5		+0.5
   Light		+0.0		+0.0		+0.5
   Heavy		+0.0		-0.5		-0.5
   Extreme 		-0.5		-1.0		-1.5

Single arc: restricting a sensor to a single 30-degree arc
  improves sensitivity. Restricting scans to a single hex (including
  the ship's own) improves it still more. Note that ships may use multiple
  sensors to each scan a different arc or hex.
   
Location/Dust: sensitivity is reduced in the inner portions of a solar
  system due to scattered light from zodiacal dust.
  Some systems (referees discretion until I write the rules...) may
  have light or no such dust, particularly older stars and/or stars with
  no planetoid belts. Young stars or stars with several planetoid belts
  may posses heavy dust; extremely young systems with thick protoplanetary
  disks qualify for the "extreme" modifier.


Example: in a normal system, a battlecruiser (signature 0.5/0.5/-0.5)
has jumped near a comet in the Kuiper belt (Range=15.) A large 
sensor array (Passive sensitivity 15.5) in the inner solar system is
attempting to detect it. In the first turn, the battle cruiser
is operating at full power as it maneuvers to the comet and the emitted signal is
15.5 + 0.5 - 15.0 = 1.0, an Average task. If it escapes detection and
manages to enter the comet's hex, it would gain the -1 for being in the
same hex as the comet, and -0.5 for non-maneuvering, for a signal of -0.5
(undetectable.) A second sensor array located in the outer zone of the
system, however, would have a sensitivity bonus of 1.0 for a signal of 
15.5 + 1.0 + 0.5 - 15.0 -1.0 -0.5 = 0.5, a Staggering task (every half hour
turn) to detect the ship; it might be able to successully refuel and jump
out. (Clever system defence managers can probably think of ways to make
this harder...)

Scan duration:

The rules assume 30 minute turns. If the combat system has shorter turns,
sensor sensitivity will be reduced; in a roleplaying situation (such as
interplanetary travel) it will often be more convienient to extend the turns,
increasing sensor sensitivity. use the following table to modify sensitivity
based on turn length:

Turn Length	Sense Mod    Notes


1-60 seconds     -0.5	     personal combat turns
1-120 minutes	  0.0        space combat turns
2-100 hours	 +0.5	     "system crossing" timescale


(c) 1997 Bruce Macintosh. Traveller is a trademark of Imperium Games.
Permission granted to reproduce electronically on the World Wide Web.
Permission is *not* granted to Imperium Games to reproduce this text in any
printed supplement without prior consultation with the author.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:54:33 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marathon .44 MMC last revision (I promise!)

	Ok... I realize that this is beginning to get repetitive, but I had
a look at the M2 manual, and looking at the proportions of the drawing of
the .44 (very Keith Bros. BTW) I realized that my previous attempt was way
too big.  I'd also missed the A1 designation in the name.  So I did a
redesign aiming to get a more compact pistol whose proportions were closer
to the drawing; I think that this is a lot closer to the weapon in the game
and in and of itself is a pretty funky little (well, relatively little)
gun.  It's more reasonably sized, is still pretty lethal, and is lighter
and lower-recoiled.  In any case, I promise not to post it to the list
again; three redesigns is enough.


T4 Stats:

Name: 		UESC .44 Magnum Mega Class A1.
Damage: 	3.5.
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		8.
Mass (empty):	2.6 Kg.
Reloads:	0.5 Kg.
Price:		3,364 Cr.

FF&S/TTA design notes:


* Cartridge (11X52mm straight cased)

Caliber= 11mm
Rated energy= 1,500 joules
Base area= 95 mm^2
Propellant volume= 1,250 mm^3
Bullet length= 11mm
Case length= 32mm
Round length= 43mm
Round mass= 32.68 g
Ideal barrel length= 11 cm
Round price= 1.31 cr/round ordinary, 0.65/round mass produced
Designation= 11X43 .44 MMC A1


* Barrel (9 cm light rifled)

Barrel length= 9 cm
Mod(Blen)= -0.18
Barrel mass= 0.18
Barrel price= 36 Cr
Actual Muzzle Energy= 1,365 joules


* Reciever (TL-9 advanced materials light semi-auto)

Reciever length= 20 cm
Reciever mass= 1.312 Kg (1.712 incl grip)
Reciever price= 1,968 Cr.


* Magazine (8-round grip)

Mass= 131 g empty, 393 g full.
Price= 1.31 Cr empty, 11.79 Cr full
(it can take a 12-round magazine as well, but I'm sticking to Marathon
specs; for those who care its mass would be 175 g empty, 568 g full)


* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 29 cm
Bulk: 2
Mass: loaded 2.285 Kg, empty 2.023 Kg
Price: 2,560 Cr.
Basic Range: 13.32 m (Very Short Range in T4 range bands); takes into
account optic sight.
Damage: 3.5 (actually 3.518)
Recoil: 3.42

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:48:22 -0700
From: "Eric Jackson" <Alric@SpryNet.Com>
Subject: Traveller IRC

Still looking for players....

I need to know what times would work best for people. Let me know when you
can, and just as importantly, can't play.

I can't run on Mondays.

I can run any other weekday after 7:30 - 8:00pm (PST), and pretty much
anytime on weekends.


Eric J
Alric@SpryNet.Com
Fuzion Page: http://members.aol.com/rfintnl/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1644
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1645



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller CD
re bibliography
Traveller novels
Re: T41 CharGen
Re: Marathon weapons: MA-75B AR/GL
Re: Star Trigger
Auction Update #07: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)
Re: House Rules
re: Starship npises
Re: spinward marches campaign
Vanefa Subsector (B/Solomani Rim)
Re: MTJ and TD canonical?
Re:Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Rat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon,  4 Aug 97 04:36:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:00:49, nlejeune@atos-group.com Wrote...

> Timothy Collinson wrote:
>
>> That's 8922 pages of Traveller material (not counting novels
>> or boxed sets such as Tarsus, Beltstrike and Games 1-5)
> Arrrgr, I didn't know there was so many...
    Only makes sense you know, been more then ten year of Traveller now. ;)

> Michael D. Peters stated that 15 to 30 minutes are needed per page.
> Assuming that after 50 pages, the operator would drop below 10 minutes
> a page. The complete process would take 9000/6 = 1500H! which is a
> little more than 9 monthes (20 days a month 8 hours a day...). What an
> enjoyable work...
    My, what a talent for understatement you possess!  Not to mention that it's
going to be Expensive to pay anyone person to do that any that they will STILL
miss things. ;)

> With 9000 pages there is no way to handle to books with simple texte
> or html files. 9000 gif files would also be horrible to walk trough.
    IF this is going to get done, and while I and a lot of other Traveller fans
would love to have it happen.  Marc has only said he's considering it.  About
the only way I can think to see it done is if Marc let's the fans who have
volunteered to scan and edited do so, then grant amnesty for those of us fan
who have already typed this stuff into text files.  Though I suspect that most
of the TNE stuff is already in text files and such so that's less work to worry
about. ;) But still, this is going to be an awful big project.  Yet I suspect
it's only one that we the fans can do... if Marc will allow us too. ;)

    Please God too!  Let's make certain we get either bug fixed copies or
include the errata files!  There is NOTHING more depressing the spending a
bunch of money something and then finding out it's broken and that the errata
fixing it isn't available. :( And let's make it simple plain text, for all the
people who either don't have the machines to handle all the fancy formats or
can't afford to spend the money to buy them.  Plain text is the _ultimate_ in
cross platform compatability. ;)

    And then there's the appearance of that rabid feud between Marc Miller and
Roger Sanger over the DGP stuff he owns the rights to. <sigh> It would be nice
to get ALL of Traveller's heritage on CD though.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:31:17 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re bibliography

Bob Sanders wrote:
>Thanks for the page count and the bibliography search.  BTW, can I get a
>copy of that.

I hope so.  In theory it should be ready for Euro Gen Con at the end of the
month.

Scary.


[Andy - please don't let me down now!  (Or tell me NOW to quit blabbing
about it on TML)]


tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:32:43 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Traveller novels

I wrote:
>>Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk said:
>> Pages of Traveller material in different eras divided by publisher:
>>
>>      GDW       DGP       Other           Total
>> CT   3086      142       2527      5755       (+1737 pages of novels)


to which idiot/savant asked:
>There were Classic Traveller novels?
>Where?

I know of two Swycaffer trilogies:
Not in Our Stars
Become the Hunted
The Universal Prey (all by Avon Books)

The Empire's Legacy
Voyage of the Planet Slayer
Revolt and Rebirth (all by New Infinities Productions)

and the short story collection: The Praesidium of Archive (Avon books
again)

If you want further details - look out for a forthcoming bibliography!  :-)

I kind of assumed that these *wouldn't* be included on the CD for copyright
reasons, though of course, I'd love them to be there.


Funnily enough I happened across a copy of _Voyage of the Planet Slayer_
last weekend for just $5.  If only it had been one of the ones I don't own.
If anyone wants this and will pay postage I'll see if it's still in the
shop. (likely)  I also have an extra copy of _Not in Our Stars_ if anyone
wants to buy it.



For those who don't know, these books are not set in The Imperium but are
stories based in an alternate Traveller universe (with permission from MWM
to use such concepts and ideas).


HTH

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:06:17 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: T41 CharGen

Marc Miller writes:

> Here are some interesting (?) elements included in the current draft of T41
> Chargen.

[deleted for bandwidth]

I haven't been entirely keen on some of the directions T4.1 has been 
taking on character generation, but all these changes sound 
excellent!

I assume Marine Force Lieutenants etc. would habitually be referred 
to as "Lieutenant Jones" except in formal matters or interservice 
dealings.  So the Marine CO might say to a trooper, "Report to Lt. 
Jones", but the Navy Captain would order "Force Lt. Jones" to the 
Bridge, and the court-martial for cowardice might begin "Force Lt. 
Jones, you are accused of the capital crime of cowardice in the face 
of the enemy.  How do you plead?"

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:07:46 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Marathon weapons: MA-75B AR/GL

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>Nifty little toy, there, Roderick. Just one question, has Hengabar
>actually let go of the prototype the FSY engineers showed him, or are they
>still trying to pry it out of his hands? ;-)
>


	Actually, the staff are well trained.  The boss gets to play with
new toys as long as he wants so long as he doesn't compromise Orbital HQ's
structural or atmospheric integrity or he doesn't drool too heavily on them.

	Also, they're not dumb enough to hand them to Hengabar _loaded_ :).

	Seriously, though, I don't think that I'd release that one as a
Spofulam design.  The inspiration wasn't mine, but rather that of the guys
at Bungie Games, whose games you should all run out and buy immediately :).

	Now that I've got the main ones from Marathon done (with the
exception of the SPNKR SSM launcher and the TOZT-7 Backpack Napalm Unit and
the Zeus-class Fusion Pistol (which'd have to be about TL-18)) I might just
take a stab at that funky little gun thing Gary Oldman's character was
packing in Fifth Element.  I think that it could be done by lifting some
data from EA (like the net gun and flamethrower) and creatively fudging...


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 00:27:37 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

>Date: Sun,  3 Aug 97 22:11:00 GMT 
>From: s.johnson107@genie.com
>Subject: Re: Star Trigger

>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:29:01, pould@netcom.ca Wrote...

>> They must make sure that the Sword World will not learn about
>> the fact that the trigger doesn't work (at least until some
>> time after the Collapse and the beginning of the Regency).

>    From what I vaguely remember of the pseudophysics desribed in the Darrian's
>module the problem resulted from the fact that the Darrian's discovered records
>from the original experiment that caused the sub nova flare.  Technical
>schematics of the original probe, early data and such like and it didn't match
>what they had on hand in their current (circa 1100+) Special Arm units.  So the
>Darrian's started an emergency re-engineering to make their weapons match the
>millenium old specs.

>    Their diplomats and leader started wearing psionic screens because "they
>knew" the Star Trigger was a bluff suddenly.  About a year or so later the
>Darrian's had re-engineered their Star Trigger weapons to match the recovered
>specs and they got back data matching the original data from the early tests.
>Now WE, the overviewing GM's and Player who read AM8, know that the newly
>re-engineered Star Triggers are worthless.  BUT the Darrian's believe they work
>and it's that belief that the Zhodani telepaths read in the minds of the
>Darrian's diplomat and leaders and thus are detered.  Because the Darrians
>BELIEVE their Star Trigger works and in all likelyhood They Would Know. ;)

>    As I remember the described pseudophysics in AM8, my copy is packed away,
>the new Star Trigger wouldn't work either.  Mostly because the original sub
>nova flare was a complete and utter accident.  Something to do with how all
>those meson beams communicating with the probe deep within the stellar core
>were interacting if memory serves.  OC the use of the Star Trigger is NOT
>something you want to have happen in your local space.  The original one fried
>electronics half a dozen parsecs away when the wave front got there.  And it
>didn't do the Darrian's Primary Star any good either. ;)

The first Darrian Star Trigger was in fact a sham. According to AM8 it was
developed in haste in the mid 400's in response to a percieved Zhodani threat.
The Darrian's couldn't initially reproduce the star trigger because they did
not understand how they had triggered the Maghiz. However they fudged a
demonstration (one is left to puzzle at just how one 'demonstrates' a star
trigger without actually setting it off) which convinced their own people that
it worked. The Zhodani then detected this belief telepathically and thus the
deterrent worked.

However shortly after the end of the Fifth Frontier War, some documents
relating to the probe thought to have caused the Maghiz came to light that the
creators of the star trigger didn't have, creating doubt that the star trigger
worked. This threatened the deterrent effect as the Zhodani would be able to
detect this doubt. The adventure in AM8 details the efforts of the Darrian's
to get the star trigger to work, without letting on that it doesn't. AM8 states
that the Maghiz was caused by the interaction of two ongoing probes into
Darrian's primary. While not specifically stated, the overall tone of the
adventure is that the Darrian's did figure out how to build a working star
trigger in the 1100's. However since it requires the deployment of two big
powerful meson beams close to the star to be triggered as well as physically
dropping a large probe into the star; I'd say actually using it would be a tad
on the tricky side.

Scene in Zhodani Planetry Defence HQ.
"Okay, so we've got two Darrian ships moving to flank postions on either side
of our star and another approaching the star at high-G's. Do you think they
might be up to something?"

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 07:38:21 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #07: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Sorry for not updating over the weekend, but I left the list address at
work :(.

Anyway, update is attached.  Thanks!

Rules:   Update 8/4/97  -  07:00 EDT         

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $12.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 8.00 stackmc@aol.com

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $32.00 rmorris@wyoming.com
        $30.00 teflonkid@voyager.net
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $26.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $25.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $22.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu 

Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00  
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $ 3.00 EugHarvey@aol.com

TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
   
TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $15.00 EugHarvey@aol.com
        $15.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $ 6.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net

GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        $ 7.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 5.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                       
        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:33:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: House Rules

Bureau-X Agents report to Commander X the following Information:

>Date: 01 Aug 1997 11:00 EDT
>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: House Rules : Quick Solar System Generation,Political 
Strength,Starport >Size,Hacking the Grid...etc...

WOW!
4 sets of house rules on the TML.  Robert you've been busy! This is what I 
like to see on this list.  Creativity!

I enjoy rules variants, stuff like this makes the game that much more 
interesting.

These are some interesting house rules Robert.  Well done.  I particulary 
like your hacking rules variant.  I too have done a hacking rules system, 
based in part by info in CSC.

If you would like to check them out they are @
http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/hausrulz.htm

Keep up the good work!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:04:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Starship npises

>On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>
>> Just to add some flavor during travels, I would like to have you opinion on
>> the noises the players could hear inside a starship while in J/N space
>
>[whommmmp] from laser fire near-misses as the grav focussing pulse (associated
>with each laser pulse) brushes the hull.
>
>Bruce

Wouldn't they "disturb" sensors and laser mirrors as well? Couldn't you use
grav-soliton guns as defense against lockons of sensors?
Finally I'm wondering if you do not need to resolve the target to be able
to use the image for FC purposes?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:29:54 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: spinward marches campaign

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk wrote:

> SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> >What is in the Spinward Marches Campaign? Is it similar to the
> Traveller
> >Adventure?
>
> (...)



> Actually that's not fair.  There is material enough in SMC to base a
> campaign on, but it  takes much more work from the referee.
>
> SMC is 49 pages of background material for the Fifth Frontier War,
> character generation for the 12 classes of characters already
> published in
> _Citizens of the Imperium_ (Supplement 4) and various military and
> civilian
> organizations.  It also has maps of the Spinward Marches and a handy
> one
> page reference to extended UWP stats.
>
> TTA is 154 pages of classic Classic Traveller adventures.  If you've
> not
> got Supp 4 and want some detail on the FFW, then SMC is quite useful.
> Otherwise, if you've got to choose...
>
> This is, of course, all in my opinion.
>

   Actually, what I have done before is that everytime I had another
group (I have moved so often because of my work that I have to start all
over again), I always start the new group in the Spinward Marches at the
time of the Fifth Frontier War.  It does require more work but it is
always a time filled with adventures.  It also gives a perspective on
the NPC that will get importance later (i.e. Norris).  For example, if
your characters meet Norris when he is not archduke and help him, they
will be interested in his rise to power in later years.

SMC contains useful information on the sector (and the map is a lot
nicer than the original one published as one of the supplement).  The
map in the front of the book is also useful if you photocopy it and give
it to your player as a player aid.  It helps them have an understanding
on the universe around them.  I have always found this book useful.  I
have used it so often that my copy is kind of beat up now.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 23:20:41 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Vanefa Subsector (B/Solomani Rim)

Part 2 of the SolRim UPP data...once again, comments and suggestions are
invited...

The Vanefa Subsector

The Vanefa subsector is dominated by the Easter Concord, most of it's
worlds are either members of, or have close ties to the Concord.  The
subsector is named for it's primary world, which is the dominant in the
Easter Concord's spinward regions, and is a major power within the
Concordat Assemblage itself.  Vanefa, and most of the other member worlds
in this subsector joined the Easter Concord relatively recently (from -57
to -12).
Vanefa is critical of many of the Concord's policies, both internal and
external.  Wary of the growing tendency towards centralised government, all
of Vanefa's representatives are members of the Centrifugal Faction within
the Assemblage.

Porlock       0902 E433105-5    Lo Ni Po           413    F9 V M8 D   
Bethe         0903 E422000-0    Ba                 012    K6 V M6 D   
Llewellyn     0907 C200000-0    Lo Ni Va           122    M3 V M8 D   
Ganelon       0909 E430000-0    Ba De              012    G5 V     
Poseidon      0910 E8AA000-0    Ba Fl Wa           022    G9 V     
Khedish       1002 E556521-3    Ag Lo Ni           422    M2 V M3 D   
Shaabipili    1007 D55365A-7    Ni Po              814    M0 V     
Coriolanus    1105 E237501-6    Lo Ni              610 EC M1 V M7 D   
Tammuz        1107 B754674-7    Ni                 523 EC G7 V     
Quaver        1110 E111000-0    Ba Ic              035    F2 V     
Akimasi       1201 E8A5000-0    Ba Fl              012    F4 V M3 D   
Sase          1202 C347725-5                       214    G5 V     
Biggles       1205 B236632-9    Ni                 100 EC K2 V     
Ascalon       1207 C562636-6    Ni                 923 EC F6 V M3 D   
Vanefa        1304 A5638DE-B    Cp                 412 EC M1 V     
Rimmon        1306 E222000-0    Ba                 020 EC G5 V     
Gulimaru      1402 E7A6000-0    Ba Fl              012    G5 V     
Esterhazy     1404 E335000-0    Ba                 002 EC M0 V     
Azaremiid     1405 D766761-4    Ri                 812 EC K5 V K9 D M8 D 
Catseye       1406 E222000-0    Ba                 010 EC G7 V     
Suleiman      1504 DA64610-7    Ni                 802 EC K7 V     
Rossyg        1505 E785401-4    Ag Lo Ni           614 EC M1 V M0 D   
Ai Jabry      1507 E765656-4    Ni Ri              820 EC A9 V M8 D   
Imarir        1510 C250565-5    De Lo Ni Po        734    G9 V     
Dolfuss       1604 E100000-0    Ba Va              002 EC G4 V     
Madder        1607 E532000-0    Ba                 002 EC K0 V     
Okefenokee    1609 E337000-0    Ba                 025    K7 V

The Vanefa subsector contains 27 worlds, with a total population of 582
million.  The highest tech level is 11 (B), at Vanefa.  the highest
population is 441 million, also at Vanefa.
Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:04:55 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: MTJ and TD canonical?

Harold Hale wrote:

>   Our lists more or less correspond, though I would not rate Traveller
>Digest or MegaTraveller Journal nearly as high.  In fact, Dave Nilsen
>pretty much reputiated the contents of MTJ #4, and the Regency
>Sourcebook just flat states that the whole "Sparklers" episode did not
>happen.

I disagree with you here, Harold. *Everything* in the published articles of
MTJ and TD should be construed as canon.

The Sparklers episode appeared in a lettercol at the back of MTJ4 and was
mentioned more as an idea that DGP was planning to develop. Since they
never did develop it, it remains an "idea" and Dave could invalidate it
without making the implication that everything DGP wrote bears scrutiny.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml




- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:26:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re:Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Rat

>Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:23:25 -0700
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Ratings/conversion from T4&FFS1)

>Part 3: Rating ships.

>Note that FFS2 includes a much wider range of sensors for use on newly-
>designed ships - including much more powerful active sensors and huge
>arrays for use on capital ships. It also includes advanced stealth and
>ECM options.

>FFS2 also distinguishes between sensors that are optimized for detecting new
>targets ("scanners") and those optimized for fire-control ("trackers") but
>sensors converted from FFS are considered to be dual-mode tracker/scanners
>(as are most high-TL sensors in FFS2), except for LADARs.

>Sensor ratings:

>Passive sensors from FFS/QSDS/SSDS are converted to the new system
>using Table 3:

>Table 3: Passive Sensor Conversion Table

>FFS range(hexes)                Sensitivity
>or T4 rating
>0.01 - 0.1                      13
>1-2                             13.5
>3-4                             14
>5-6                             14.5
>7-8                             15.0


>Active sensors use Table 4:

>Table4: Active Sensor Conversion Table

>FFS range(hexes)                Sensitivity
>or T4 rating
>0.01-0.1                        11.5
>1-7                             12.0
>8-16                            12.5

How did you figure the conversions?  I have been working on small craft and 
fighter designs recently.  I could only plug in relatively small sensor 
packages in the 10 ton fighter.  I choose the 12.5 Sensitivity rating 
passive sensor, hoping it would be adequate.  According to the conversion 
tables my fighter would only be able to sense ships in the same hex.  But 
after doing some math I discovered that my fighter could detect automaticaly 
things within the range of factor 11(3-16 hexes) provided the object had a 
passive signature of 0 with no modifications.

12.5-0-11-0=1.5 (automatic detection)

I am a little confused about all this.  This is going to shake some 
shipdesigners up a bit as we move to a new sensor rules structure.

IC:  Looks like its time for another ISBA forum! :)

Commander X

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1645
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Monday, August 4 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1646



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

new items and math question
Safari Ship
FF&S2 + Gateway Cross the Great Rift
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: Marine OTC
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Mileu:E21
re: re: Starship npises
Re:Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Rating)
sensor rule of thumb for ship designers
House Rules: Exchange Rates
Re: T41 CharGen
Re: Newton owners?
Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything
FF&S Here -- My opinion on Jump Drives
Re: Vanefa/Solomani Rim
Re: T41 CharGen
Re: Vanefa Subsector (B/Solomani Rim)
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Fencing Styles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 12:58:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: new items and math question

   Hi.

> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 07:38:31 -0400
> From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>

> Recieved FF&S and Gateway yesterday. 
> Anyone know what the doubleheaded arrow in the math formulas mean?
> ex.  Thrust = Accel <-> Volume <-> 10kN

   In this example, they mean multiplication.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 13:08:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Safari Ship

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 21:39:13 -0400
> From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>

>> CT Adventure 10 "Safari Ship".  It has plans and nice clean pictures.
>> He He, I have 2.
>>                                                                  John
>> ____________
>>
>> I am trying to find the stats of the safari ship (I really like that
>> ship, I think it has one of the coolest deck plan).  Does anyone know
>> where I can get it?
>>
>> Daniel Poulin
>> pould@netcom.ca

> No, I already have that one.  I want the stats in TNE (FF&S).

   I don't know whether they've ever been published.  Here are the T4
   stats from my High-Guard-to-T4 conversion scheme (which works pretty
   well IMNSHO).  I believe that T4-to-TNE conversion is pretty simple,
   so this may help you out.

...............................................................................
                               Animal class Safari Ship

Tons: 200                      Volume: 2800                     Cost: 81.08
Crew: 4                        Hi/Med Pass: 7                   Low Pas: 0
Cargo: 6                       Controls: Mil Std /Bridge        Tech Level: 11

 8 Size Rating                                  2 Jump Drive Rating
 1 Fire Control Rating                          1 G Thruster Plates
                                                2 Power Plant Rating (1000MW)
                                               60 Fuel Rating /Scoop
                                                0 Meson Screen Rating
                                                0 Damper Rating
                                                0 Sandcaster Rating
                                                2 A   4 P   2 J  Sensor
                                                0 Armor       12 Structure

Enclosed Air Raft
20-ton Launch

Chief Naval Architect: Marc W. Miller

Ship has 2 7-ton holding tanks for live specimens and a 7-ton trophy
lounge.

...............................................................................

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 18:10 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: FF&S2 + Gateway Cross the Great Rift

Looks like IG have got the mail order problems fixed.

Only skimmed FF&S2, but it looks pretty good. 

Except for the fact that it's unusable due to all the tables being at 
the back and half the equations being garbled (what the smeg does eq. 
22 on p36 mean?)
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 18:10 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970801092924.00594338@172.16.20.5>

Nicolas,

> Yes, you are right. FFS laser sight are bit big and heavy, so it's not
> usable on pistols.

Which is odd, since I can go out now and buy a TL8 laser pointer for 
~$50 that's the size/weight of a pen and will reach 100m.

Okay, so it's not quite the same thing, but laser sights should be a 
*lot* smaller than FF&S said.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 18:10 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Marine OTC

In-Reply-To: <33DFCA77.B2E95CF7@bu.edu>

Steve,

> >    Marines use Naval Academy for their OTC requirements.
>  
> But since Naval characters have Officer Flight School, and Amry grunts
> have Officer Commando School, shouldn't the Marines have their own
> specialized professional military school?  Something like Spaceborne
> Combat School?  Studying such topics as Environmental or Zero-G combat,
> boarding hostile vessels, repelling boarders, etc.

Good idea.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 18:10 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

In-Reply-To: <v0300780db0069b46017e@[18.77.3.40]>

Peter,

> And, as a marine once pointed out to me, the laser sight is as good as a
> flashlight when trying to shoot at the *user* of the sight.  I would treat
> anyone using a laser sight as a big target in a darkened room, for example.
> Of course, the sight usually goes on just before a round is fired, right?
> Maybe just an increase in what some systems call "signature" for the firing
> weapon.
>  
> Anyway, the players in my group rarely use laser sights since I explained
> this opinion.  Does anyone here use such devices, and can they verify or
> comment on this opinion?

Simple solution: use a wavelength off the end of the visible spectrum and 
goggles that can detect it.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: 04 Aug 1997 13:19 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Mileu:E21

I was bored one day and wondered if there was any playability
in a Milieu based on the Earth system in the 22nd century, up
to the point where jump technology is developed.

The solar system would be explored, and there may well be
colonies, observatories, explorations (2001), drydocks, fuel 
depots, outposts, relay stations, mining ops (Outland), 
shuttle and tug ports.

The tech level would be 8, with perhaps some TL9 (except 
without the jump drive).  Grav vehicles would be restricted
to the most wealthy states and people.  The 20t launch
and the 100t are the only ships in the T4 book which would
be directly transferable.  We must also assume a space tug,
perhaps little more than a 50t engine which could drag
around things displacing up to 200t?

Life would be more precarious than that of the typical Imperial,
but a scenario there might provide a good background for a
large-scope adventure spanning several centuries...

Anyone put some work into this?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:37:08 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: re: Starship npises

Anders writes
>Bruce wrote
>>[whommmmp] from laser fire near-misses as the grav focussing pulse (associated
>>with each laser pulse) brushes the hull.
>Wouldn't they "disturb" sensors and laser mirrors as well? Couldn't you use
>grav-soliton guns as defense against lockons of sensors?
The whommmp isn't that much of an effect; the active optics in laser
mirrors and sensors should easily be able to cope with it.


>Finally I'm wondering if you do not need to resolve the target to be able
>to use the image for FC purposes?
My ultimate decision was that you don't. You can computer the
centroid (location) of an unresolved target to much better than your
resolution - a hundred or a thousand times better with enough signal-to-noise.
The new sensor rules model that; you need lots of S/N to fire (which is
why there's a big sensitivity penalty) but you don't need incredible
resolution.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:54:00 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 3/5 (Rating)

The sinister Commander X wrote

>How did you figure the conversions?
The passive sensor conversion were based mostly on surface area.
The active sensor conversion were based on surface area too, tweaked a 
little based on power consumption and personal prejudice.

>I have been working on small craft and 
>fighter designs recently.  I could only plug in relatively small sensor 
>packages in the 10 ton fighter.  I choose the 12.5 Sensitivity rating 
>passive sensor, hoping it would be adequate.  According to the conversion 
>tables my fighter would only be able to sense ships in the same hex.  But 
>after doing some math I discovered that my fighter could detect automaticaly 
>things within the range of factor 11(3-16 hexes) provided the object had a 
>passive signature of 0 with no modifications.

>12.5-0-11-0=1.5 (automatic detection)

What limited you to the 12.5? That's a pretty dinky sensor - a fighter
should be able to carry a 13 or 13.5.

A couple more things to keep in mind:
- -If you're looking for someone who's already been detected (by you or another
friendly ship you;'re in communication with) you get a +1.5 (which is *huge*.)
A fighter can get targets handed off from the mother ship; or, if fighters
are going to operate independently, build one fighter with no weapons but
a bigger sensor array (maybe even folding) that acquires targets for the
whole squadron. 

- -In T4, an "average" task is pretty easy, so you really only need a signal of
1 to be fairly sure of catching someone

- -Limiting your scanning to a single arc gets you a sensitivity bonus;

- -Getting a firecontrol lock is even harder - it would be an Impossible task
for your fighter at RF 11 - but there's one really good option for fighters:
Ladar. Ladars are relatively cheap and very good for firecontrol locks. 
(Note that the Ladar table in the FFS draft was wrong - and the one in FFS
is probably wrong - all sensitivities should be increased by 6.) Fighters
can also consider a bigger single-function tracker. I may tweak the fire
control rules still more later...

The rules do make life harder for fighters trying to detect small ships
or other fighters (although they make life easier for fighters trying to
detect capital ships...) This is probably realistic, unfortunately. 
Fighters that want to do "space control" missions probably need a AWACS-
equivalent to fly with them.

>I am a little confused about all this.  This is going to shake some 
>shipdesigners up a bit as we move to a new sensor rules structure.

>IC:  Looks like its time for another ISBA forum! :)

I'm happy to answer questions - and tweak the rules as playbalance issues
become apparent. Maybe I should participate in your ISBA forum...
I *think* the rules give us more options - as opposed to FFS, where 
pretty much any ship could carry a sensor big enough to make sensors 
irrelevant in combat - and ultimately will be nice to have.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:04:43 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: sensor rule of thumb for ship designers

The rule of thumb is that you can see a normal target - a 100-ton ship
with no masking (sig=0) at a range equal to your sensitivity (Impossible)
and are pretty much guaranteed to detect it in a turn or two at a range
equal to sensitivity-1.

You can *fire* on it at a range equal to sensitivity-2.5, which is why
Ladars are a good buy.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: 04 Aug 1997 14:13 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: House Rules: Exchange Rates

Alright, here's a more shaky rule set I fudged last week
for quickly determining the currency value of a world.

This cute little formula gives the value, in Credits, of
the world's basic denarius/shilling equivalent:

Ratio = [ Tech Level
        + Starport Class (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)
        + 3 if a Rich world
        - 3 if a Poor world ]
        / 20

Of course, 0 or less means you gotta barter.

So,

Sylea's credit is worth		(15 + 2 + 3) / 20 = 1.0 Credits (surprise)
Regina's credit is worth	(10 + 2 + 3) / 20 = 0.75 Cr
Rhylanor's credit is worth	(15 + 2)     / 20 = 0.85 Cr
Arkadia's credit is worth	(6 - 2)      / 20 = 0.25 Cr
Darrian's credit is worth       (16 + 2)     / 20 = 0.90 Cr (I think)

Note: since Starport class and TL tend in the same direction,
the effect is non-linear, which is fine with me.  However, I
haven't spent a lot of time thinking about side effects.

- ---

I should rename my house rules to: QND House Rules (Quick 'N Dirty).

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:40:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T41 CharGen

In a message dated 97-08-04 11:50:28 EDT, you write:

<< I assume Marine Force Lieutenants etc. would habitually be referred 
 to as "Lieutenant Jones" except in formal matters or interservice 
 dealings. >>

Sort of like your mother using your middle name when she's mad. "George
Armstrong Custer, how could you?"

Back in the Army a long time ago, phone etiquette demanded we identify  the
unit when answering the phone... "Headquarters, Third battalion, sir." We had
numerous soldiers who answered "Motor Pool, Bravo Battery, Six Battalion,
Sixty-Seventh Air Defense Artillery (Chaparral / Vulcan), We Aim to Please,
Sir!"
 [or some such slogan] just because it was aggravatingly long and tedious. We
had an attitude problem back then.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:36:53 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Newton owners?

At 03:19 PM 8/2/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Michael Koehne wrote:
>> 	I dislike systems where development is propretary (apple)

Proprietary or for pay?  Newton development is not proprietary, but I know
of no free development options.

>> 	If Apple would make development tools free available I would
>> 	own an Newton.
...
>Not to get into a platform debate, but Apple is NOT the only source for a
>Newton development environment. There is also a product called NS-Basic
>available shareware. Last I knew, Turbo-Pascal wasn't free either...

And of course, there is the program Newt, which is newton hosted.  Download
text into the newton from any platform you care to, and you can develop away.

It is not free, but IIRC, it was cheap (under $50).  I liked it a great
deal when I was developing, as I was thinking kind of text like at the time.

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 12:19:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Is DGP ever going to do anything

At 11:32 AM 7/30/97 +0100, Jo wrote:
>    I note, with amusement, once again that people are calling on MM to let
>Roger Sanger (who bought the rights to DGP) publish stuff. How quickly
>people forget that Roger has never, ever, produced anything.
...

N.B. I contacted him a few days ago about publishing the DGP stuff.  He
communicated willingness on his part, but that others were in the loop and
prevented it.  Going into more details would likely be outside the bounds
of good taste, as it was email.

I care not whether Roger publishes the information; I want it available in
some form from someone.  As he holds the copyrights, he has to be in the
center of any such discussion.

If there is someone else preventing Roger from doing so, I would be happy
to call, write letters, make Dark Hints, whatever it takes.

If it is him that is in the way, then I want him to find someone able to do
this particular task, and to let them.
...
>    The best service Roger Sanger can do is to give up (or agree to sell)
>his ownership of the DGP stuff to someone who will do something with it. He
>has already violated the spirit of his agreement with Joe Fugate. If people
>are going to make public cries, I would not pester MM, who is actually
>doing _something_ to "let" Roger, who is actually doing _nothing_, fail to
>deliver on yet another promise. Rather, I'd pester Roger to either release
>his DGP rights to the public domain or else let them be bought by someone
>who will actually do something with them.

All I want from Marc and IG is their agreement that this would be
acceptable.  IIIRC, they are the only other players who have a legal
ability to prevent it.  Once they assure me that they are not the sticking
points, then I know it is Roger who is the problem.  If they do not, then I
do not know who is obstructing the process.

I am not asking them, mind, to say that anything he chooses to do with it
is fine, only that they would not be opposed to the old DGP stuff being re
released, perhaps in an electronic form.

>    [If he sets a price, I'd be more than happy to coordinate a TML
>collection to buy them, web them, and make them publically available to the
>gaming community. Maybe followed by an at-cost CORE printing for those who
>like hard-copy, etc.]

I like that idea.  I would be willing to contribute, though I would want to
see the price first.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:46:27 -0500
From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: FF&S Here -- My opinion on Jump Drives

 My copy of FF&S came last Thursday.  While I haven't been able to go
through it all yet I have one major problem.

Jump Drive and Jump Fuel volume at higher TL is MY big problem.

The book tells me that at TL 11 and at TL 15 a Jump 2 ship takes the same
amount of volume for the Jump Drive and Jump Fuel, about 23%.

An advance of 4 TL's and NO benefit?!?

That just does not make sense to me.  My reasons are as follows:

1.  A Jump Drive is not much more than a specialized power plant.  Every
power plant decreases volume per output with advancing TL's.

2.  On page 58 I am told that 35% of Jump Drive volume is accumulator.
Accumulator volume modifier goes from 0.060m3/MJ at TL 11 to 0.035m3/MJ at
TL 15.  Again volume almost is cut in half.

I'm not sure if these reasons are as compelling to anyone else as they are
to me.  As it has been explained to me.  It might be different if Jump
technology was explained differently, i.e.. something along reaction mass
vehicle mass or something.

I am really interested in hearing what anyone else thinks.  Dave, Guy, some
input from either of you might be enlightening.

Well I'll get off my soap box now and let the masses help me hash this out.

______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:07:24 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Vanefa/Solomani Rim

Michael Bailey wrote:


>Part 2 of the SolRim UPP data...once again, comments and suggestions
are

>invited...

>

>The Vanefa Subsector

 <<snip>


I don't know, Michael. I think you've been a bit too hard on this
subsector. Here are the stats I created for the subsector for a similar
project spawned on the HIWG list a few months back:


Porlock       0902 E433458-7    Lo Na Ni Po        513 Na M8 V M9 V
Bethe         0903 D422545-7    Lo Na Ni Po        212 Na M6 V M6 V
Llewellyn     0907 X200000-0    Ba Va              022 -- M3 VI M8 V
Ganelon       0909 X430000-0    Ba Po De           012 -- M5 V
Poseidon      0910 X8AA000-0    Ba Fl Wa           022 -- M9 V
Khedish       1002 C556685-8                       922 Na M2 VI M3 V
Shaabipili    1007 D553756-8    Po                 114 Na M0 V
Coriolanus    1105 C237644-8    Ni                 410 EC M1 V M7 V
Tammuz        1107 C7548AA-9                       223 Na M7 V
Quaver        1110 D111568-7    Na Ic O:1107       135 Na F2 V
Akimasi       1201 E8A5111-5    Fl Lo Ni           512 Na F4 V M3 V
Sase          1202 D347525-7    Ag Ni              614 EC M5 V
Biggles       1205 D236769-8    O:1405             700 EC K2 V
Ascalon       1207 B562AAC-A  M Hi                 123 EC F6 V M3 V
Vanefa        1304 C56388A-9                       712 EC M1 V
Rimmon        1306 X222000-0    Ba                 020 -- G5 V
Gulimaru      1402 E7A6468-7  O Fl Lo O:1504       212 EC M5 V
Esterhazy     1404 D335214-7    Lo Ni              402 EC M8 V
Azaremiid     1405 A766ABA-B  N Hi                 212 EC M5 V K9 D M8V
Catseye       1406 E222224-6    Lo Ni Po           810 EC M7 V
Suleiman      1504 AA6498C-B  N Hi                 202 EC M7 V
Rossyg        1505 B785467-B    Lo Ni O:1504       414 EC M0 V M1 V
Ai Jabry      1507 A7659AC-A    Hi                 220 EC A9 V M8 V
Imarir        1510 D250322-6    Po De              534 Na M9 V
Dolfuss       1604 X100000-0    Ba Va              002 -- G4 V
Madder        1607 D532346-6    Lo Ni Po           902 Na K0 V
Okefenokee    1609 E337434-7    Lo                 625 Na K7 V



I gave the worlds of the subsector a higher average tech level and a
maximum TL of 11.


The EC is described as being almost all worlds within 10 parsecs of
Easter IIRC. And, as most PEs of Solomani fame are described, largely
surviving intact throughout the Long Night.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================

Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

- --------------------------------------------------------------

Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 18:39:25 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: T41 CharGen

Nick Munn wrote:

> Marc Miller writes:
>
> > Here are some interesting (?) elements included in the current draft
> of T41
> > Chargen.
>
> [deleted for bandwidth]
>
> I haven't been entirely keen on some of the directions T4.1 has been
> taking on character generation, but all these changes sound
> excellent!
>
> I assume Marine Force Lieutenants etc. would habitually be referred
> to as "Lieutenant Jones" except in formal matters or interservice
> dealings.  So the Marine CO might say to a trooper, "Report to Lt.
> Jones", but the Navy Captain would order "Force Lt. Jones" to the
> Bridge, and the court-martial for cowardice might begin "Force Lt.
> Jones, you are accused of the capital crime of cowardice in the face
> of the enemy.  How do you plead?"

I can think of several amusing and not so amusing ways a Force
Lieutenant might be reffered to:F.L.T. (as in "report to eff-el-tee
Jones" - for casual conversations - might be corrupted at "Float"),
Fella (corruption of F.L.),
FooL (derisive term used by Naval personnel),
ForLiu ("for-loo"),
FoLi ("Foley" - but this could result in "Report to Foli Foley" ;-)

I like F.L.T., FooL, and FoLi the most.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:05:58 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Vanefa Subsector (B/Solomani Rim)

Michael Bailey writes: 

>Part 2 of the SolRim UPP data...once again, comments and suggestions are
>invited...

   I'm curious about what previous publications you have consulted in
putting this together.  

   For example, the Easter Concord, Vegan Polity, Dingir League, and Old
Earth Union had long since fossilized within their borders by M:0--how
is that suddenly the Easter Concord decided to start expanding again?  

   Also, I note that you use the old DGP stellar data for the sector. 
You should try to get the revised stellar data included in the New Era
version of the Solomani Rim, which was published in Traveller Chronicle
#10.  If you can't get access to a copy, the data is available free of
charge from the author.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:16:47 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

At 05:19 PM 8/4/97 +0000, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>I was bored one day and wondered if there was any playability
>in a Milieu based on the Earth system in the 22nd century, up
>to the point where jump technology is developed.
>
>The solar system would be explored, and there may well be
>colonies, observatories, explorations (2001), drydocks, fuel 
>depots, outposts, relay stations, mining ops (Outland), 
>shuttle and tug ports.
>
>The tech level would be 8, with perhaps some TL9 (except 
>without the jump drive).  Grav vehicles would be restricted
>to the most wealthy states and people.  The 20t launch
>and the 100t are the only ships in the T4 book which would
>be directly transferable.  We must also assume a space tug,
>perhaps little more than a 50t engine which could drag
>around things displacing up to 200t?
>
>Life would be more precarious than that of the typical Imperial,
>but a scenario there might provide a good background for a
>large-scope adventure spanning several centuries...
>
>Anyone put some work into this?
>

This is the same line of thought that motivated me to buy a copy of the
Merc:2000 rules & gazetters. Was planning on using the political and social
background from them along with TNE:FF&S as the basis for a campaign set in
the time just before or during the initial Terran/Vilani meeting at
Barnard's start. 

Real life, as usual, kept it from getting very far off the drawing board,
but there are some interesting possibilities. Like long range Vilani scouts
as possible explanations of UFOs.

Garry

 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue,  5 Aug 97 01:34:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

On Sat, 02 Aug 1997 22:10:55 GMT, jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com Wrote...

    BTW, before anything I else I want to thank all the members of the list who
have been so helpful with all the references, details and information on this.
When I first asked I barely had a clue.  Now I have much more then that. :)
    Again, thank you.

> In short, _what_else_can_you_tell_us_about_your_campaign_
> _that_may_have_an_impact_on_the_Code_Duello_?
    Well, I decided that about fifty years or so before Cleon took over on
Sylea that there was a sudden infatuation with Dumas and an idealized form of
Earth's seventeenth century European dueling styles.  So Dueling with rapiers
became all the rage, but instead of fading away as a fad it took hold and has
become the Sylean Noble's standard for doing duels.
    Now they've had a couple of decades to develop it, but I wanted some clear
idea of the original styles so I could figure out how it would evolve.  Now to
answer your question I'm presuming Rapiers (TL 12 materials tech OC) with main
gauche, Duel protocals of First, Second and Third Blood, formal seconds and all
of that.  I figure that because this is how Sylean Nobles resolve their
disputes it's going to have a certain force amongst the new nobles coming in.
Eventually, especially will everything thusfar posted on this thread, I'm going
to have some fun with the 3I encountering cultures strong enough to withstand
the Noble duel culture of Sylea and maintain their own, different culture of
dueling.  But that's down the road, after I get the details of Sylea's dueling
culture set. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1646
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1647



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates
Re: CD project
FSA Maringouin Flechette Pistol-12
Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates
M:-25 C
FSA MFP-12 revision [curses]
Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates
Cities In Flight
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Traveller novels
Purchasing Roger Sanger's Rights to DGP Stuff?
Re: Mileu:E21 (Long)
Hull Shape Modifiers in FF&S
FF&S2 Errata
Re: Idea (skills related)
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
WSV suit question
Auction Update #08: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 03:39:01 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates

Moin Robert Eaglestone,

> Ratio = [ tradeworld Tech Level
>         + tradeworld Starport Class (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)
>         + 3 if a Rich tradeworld
>         - 3 if a Poor tradeworld ]
>         / 
> 	  [ homeworld Tech Level
>         + homeworld Starport Class (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)
>         + 3 if a Rich homeworld
>         - 3 if a Poor homeworld ]

	is more independet. M0-Sylean Credit will be worth 17,
	later Imperial 20.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:28:17 -0500
From: ghost029@juno.com
Subject: Re: CD project

To any and all concerned with traveller on CD.
    In my opinion, this is definetely the way to go. I have almost all
the traveller material, but I don't have a Scanner.
I'll team up with someone with a scanner if we decide to go through with
this.

Thomas Harkless

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:13:05 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FSA Maringouin Flechette Pistol-12

	Just bashed this one up off the top of ye olde noggin.  Basically,
it's a small (24.5cm long) TL-12 pistol, constructed entirely out of TL-12
advanced materials, that fires 4mm caseless flechettes.  It's capable of
single-shot, burst-of-5, or full auto fire.  It has a 35-round magazine
capacity.  Firing it at full auto is not recommended; the recoil would be
punishing.  I have further plans for the cartridge; watch this space.


T4 Stats:

Name: 		FSA Maringouin Flechette Pistol.
Damage: 	1.5 (house rule special: treated as 1 die higher against
flex armour).
TL: 		12.
Range:		Very Short.
Shots:		35.
Mass (empty):	0.787 Kg.
Reloads:	0.141 Kg.
Price:		1,215 Cr.

FF&S/TTA design notes:


* Cartridge (4X43mmCF Spofulam)

Caliber= 4mm
Rated energy= 750 joules
Base area= 12.57 mm^2
Propellant volume= 625 mm^3
Bullet length= 12mm
Case length= 31mm
Round length= 43mm
Round mass= 32.68 g
Ideal barrel length= 187.5 cm
Round price= 0.81
Designation= 4X43mmCF Spofulam


* Barrel (5 cm light smoothbore TL-12 advanced materials)

Barrel length= 5 cm
Mod(Blen)= -0.973
Barrel mass= 0.05 kg
Barrel price= 52.5 Cr
Actual Muzzle Energy= 385 joules


* Reciever (TL-12 advanced materials light automatic/burst)

Reciever length= 19.5 cm
Reciever mass= 0.46 Kg (0.71 incl TL-12 Adv. Mat. grip)
Reciever price= 1,159.68 Cr.


* Magazine (TL-12 advanced materials 35-round grip)

Mass= 26.32 g empty, 141.75 g full.
Price= 1.84 Cr empty, 30.19 Cr full


* Weapon Evaluation

Weapon length: 24.5 cm
Bulk: 1
Mass: loaded 0.929 Kg, empty 0.787 Kg
Price: 1,220 Cr.
Basic Range: 8.5 m (Very Short Range in T4 range bands).
Damage: 1.5 (actually 1.86)
Recoil: single shot: 3, 5-round burst: 7.5, full auto: 15

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 97 22:17:50 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates

On 08/04/97 at 02:13 PM,  "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> said:

>Alright, here's a more shaky rule set I fudged last week
>for quickly determining the currency value of a world.

>This cute little formula gives the value, in Credits, of
>the world's basic denarius/shilling equivalent:

>Ratio = [ Tech Level
>        + Starport Class (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)
>        + 3 if a Rich world
>        - 3 if a Poor world ]
>        / 20

>Of course, 0 or less means you gotta barter.

Rob, this isn't going to work in Milieu 0.

>So,

>Sylea's credit is worth		(15 + 2 + 3) / 20 = 1.0 Credits (surprise)

Right, but Sylea's TL isn't E, it's C in Milieu 0, so (12+2+3)/20 = 0.85

Maybe you should use something like Exchange Rate = TL+SP+Eco/IS

TL: planetary tech level

SP: Starport (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)

Eco: Rich=+3; Poor=-3

IS: Imperial Standard (Milieu 0=17; Milieu 1100=20; etc)

Of course, outside the Imperium the Imperial Credit might not be worth very
much at all.  Players travelling into The Outlands aren't going to be able
to use all those convenient Credits they have in their pockets or on their
smart cards.  They are going to have to worry about exchanging credits for
local currency, working out "arrangements" with banks for letters of
credit, bartering with hard goods, and carrying *things* that retain
intrinsic value between systems..gems, gold, iridium, platinum, silver,
etc.  BTW, I know precious metals *shouldn't* be all that valuable in a
cheap fusion-starfaring culture, but knowing human-type sapients they
probably will be. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:29:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: M:-25 C

>Subject: Mileu:E21
>
>I was bored one day and wondered if there was any playability
>in a Milieu based on the Earth system in the 22nd century, up
>to the point where jump technology is developed.
...
>Anyone put some work into this?

  I ran a campaign around 1985, after getting my hands on a copy
of Triplanetary. I kept in the early-mid 21st century, using the
limited tech and exploration assumed in that game; e.g. fusion
(aka Heplar?) drives were cutting edge military equipment, and
everything else merely took patience to get to your destination.

  Nowadays such a campaign might risk getting turned into a cyber-
punk game, but it has the advantage that you can lavish effort on
the solar system and _know_ that the players aren't going skip into
the next sub-sector, never to return (unless, of course, UFO abduction
is real).

       Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:34:57 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FSA MFP-12 revision [curses]

	Made a slight mistake in the original version; I applied the box
magazine reciever length rule (cartridge length + min. 150mm) when the gun
had a grip magazine.  After fixing it, I realized that the pistol was now
16 cm long, or about 6.25 inches long, which was much closer to what I was
visualizing.  So now it's just that much more concealable.  Please
cut&paste the following revised description if you want to use the gun.  I
might rework the original version into a short machine pistol with a
70-round box magazine...


	A small (16cm long) TL-12 pistol, constructed entirely out of TL-12
advanced materials, that fires 4mm caseless flechettes.  It's capable of
single-shot, burst-of-5, or full auto fire.  It has a 35-round magazine
capacity.  Firing it at full auto is not recommended; the recoil would be
punishing.

T4 Stats:

Name: 		FSA Maringouin Flechette Pistol.
Damage: 	1.5 (house rule special: treated as 1 die higher against
flex armour).
TL: 		12.
Range:		Very Short.
Shots:		35.
Mass (empty):	0.787 Kg.
Reloads:	0.141 Kg.
Price:		1,215 Cr.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 23:03:21 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates

At 02:13 PM 8/4/97 EDT, you wrote:
 parts snipped
>Alright, here's a more shaky rule set I fudged last week
>for quickly determining the currency value of a world.
>
>Ratio = [ Tech Level
>        + Starport Class (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)
>        + 3 if a Rich world
>        - 3 if a Poor world ]
>        / 20
>
>Sylea's credit is worth		(15 + 2 + 3) / 20 = 1.0 Credits (surprise)
>
>Rob
>
>
How did Sylea come up with the +3 bonus, it can't be for a Rich world,
since Sylea's population is much too high for that trade classification?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:10:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Cities In Flight

Hello all, 

I stumbled across the James Blish novel, "Cities In Flight," in a bookstore
the other day. For those of you who have already read it, is this book
applicable for background info for Trav, i.e. how things work etc. If so,
I'll move it up on my "to read" list.

Thanks,
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 23:08:53 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Aug 1997 22:10:55 GMT, jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com
> Wrote...
>
>     BTW, before anything I else I want to thank all the members of the list who
> have been so helpful with all the references, details and information on this.
> When I first asked I barely had a clue.  Now I have much more then that. :)
>     Again, thank you.
>
> > In short, _what_else_can_you_tell_us_about_your_campaign_
> > _that_may_have_an_impact_on_the_Code_Duello_?
>     Well, I decided that about fifty years or so before Cleon took over on
> Sylea that there was a sudden infatuation with Dumas and an idealized form of
> Earth's seventeenth century European dueling styles.  So Dueling with rapiers
> became all the rage, but instead of fading away as a fad it took hold and has
> become the Sylean Noble's standard for doing duels.

Have you got Central Supply Catalogue??  There's mention of a TL 10
Magnum Pistol favored by the nobility for the cojones it takes to carry
a 6-shooter manual loading weapon for personal defense in a time of
lasers and plasma, etc.

Perhaps, Magnum Pistol Dueling would be the more violent form and final,
though more rarely practiced, form of dueling.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 23:21:39 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller novels

At 08:32 AM 8/1/97 +0100, you wrote:
>

>I know of two Swycaffer trilogies:
>Not in Our Stars
>Become the Hunted
>The Universal Prey (all by Avon Books)
>
>The Empire's Legacy
>Voyage of the Planet Slayer
>Revolt and Rebirth (all by New Infinities Productions)
>
>and the short story collection: The Praesidium of Archive (Avon books
>again)

>For those who don't know, these books are not set in The Imperium but are
>stories based in an alternate Traveller universe (with permission from MWM
>to use such concepts and ideas).

>tc
>timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk
>

There was also an adventure published in Dragon Magazine #59 back in March
'82, called Exonidas Spaceport, by Jeff Swycaffer.  This IIRC, is part of
the setting of "Become the Hunted" and details the characters in some of
the novels and some of the ships (in High Guard stats).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 21:53:57 -0700
From: David Simmons <singularity@qks.com>
Subject: Purchasing Roger Sanger's Rights to DGP Stuff?

At 12:19 PM 8/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:32 AM 7/30/97 +0100, Jo wrote:
>>    I note, with amusement, once again that people are calling on MM to let
>>Roger Sanger (who bought the rights to DGP) publish stuff. How quickly
>>people forget that Roger has never, ever, produced anything.
>...

    Ok, call me curious?

    Any idea how much Roger Sanger paid for the rights to the Traveller
    related DGP stuff?  Any idea how much he would sell the rights for?
    (Presuming he actually does have the rights to these materials in
     an uncontested form).

- -- Dave S.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 02:31:52 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21 (Long)

Garry Ward writes:

>I was bored one day and wondered if there was any playability
>in a Milieu based on the Earth system in the 22nd century, up
>to the point where jump technology is developed.

<snip>

>Anyone put some work into this?
>

   As a matter of fact...

Here's the canonical timeline (with corrections), courtesy of 
Mr. McKinney's site:

- -2560 (AD1957) First Solomani space explorations. GDW, MT Imperial 
               Encyclopedia, p. 6.
- -2548 (AD1969) First Solomani landings on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
               Solomani Rim). TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
- -2510 (AD2007) Archimedes settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
               Solomani Rim) established as a small mining base. 
               TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
- -2508 (AD2009) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA) 
               established on Terra (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, Alien 
               Module 6 - Solomani, p. 12.
- -2501 (AD2016) Copernicus settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
               Solomani Rim), established by America, Britain and 
               Japan. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
- -2467 (AD2050) ESA Long-Range Colony Mission leaves Terra (1827 
               Solomani Rim) in generation ships. GDW, Adventure 5 
               - Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 40.
- -2460 (AD2057) Solomani bases throughout the Terran solar system 
               (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, MT Imperial Encyclopedia, 
               p. 6.
- -2438 (AD2079) GSbAG allegedly founded from consortium of old 
               Terran manufacturing firms on Terra (1827 Solomani 
               Rim). GDW, Supplement 8 - Library Data (A-M), p. 41.
- -2433 (AD2084) Luna, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani Rim), unifies as 
               a nation in the United Nations. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 
               1984), p. 75.
- -2431 (AD2086) Solomani develop jump-1 drives on Terra (1827 Solomani 
               Rim). GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 18.

   My speculative additions/subtractions/changes:

- -2503 (AD2014) First manned expedition to Mars.  An international
               effort, it will be a primary factor leading to...
- -2502 (AD2015) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA)
               established on Terra.
- -2498 (AD2019) First permanent colony on Luna.  For apparent reasons
               (all dealing with budgetary considerations), the 2007
               date isn't going to happen.

- -2467 (AD2050) The ESA LRCM should leave somewhat later, thus 
               allowing technology a chance to advance a bit further.
               I would place it more toward AD2070-75. 

Unlikely       Bases throughout the Solar System.  While it is
               probable that the Terrans would have throughly 
               *explored* the Solar System by 2057 (with a combination
               of manned and unmanned vessels), there would not be
               any particular incentive to establish bases everywhere.
               Why?  In 2057 (a mere 60 years from now), the 
               technology wouldn't exist to exploit places like the
               moons of Neptune and Uranus.  Even if it did, such
               operations would be cost prohibitive given the
               distances involved.  After the invention of jump
               drive, and contact with the Vilani, bases would
               almost certainly be established however.

Other notes:   We can safely hypothesize that a scientific revolution
takes places in the mid-21st century that yields spacecraft-sized fusion
power plants, gravitics, and most importantly, enviromental controls
that can protect astronauts and colonists from the problems associated
with staying in space for long periods of time (cosmic rays anyone?). 
There would of course be other developments in the realm of computers,
etc.

   The political situation c. AD2050 would be anybody's guess.  Is the
U.S. still a superpower (we do know from the Traveller history it is
still a major player in AD2086)?  What becomes of China?  Has Japan
finally went into serious decline economically (one scenario I can
foresee is a tide of Chinese immigration sweeping over Japan in the
AD2040s that revives the country but changes its basic character)? 
Europe could go off toward the sunset or arise as a phoenix as a new
"European Nationalism" develops.  Perhaps there was a Third World War in
the early 21st century, which while it caused a great deal of damage,
did not cause a decline in technology (merely a bit of stagnation) and
political realignment which set the stage for the New Renaissance.

   Playing in this era would be very interesting, what with all the
national interests and megacorps (Terran version) competing for power. 
Then there's that conspiracy the elites are involved in--you know, the
one involving the detection of the Vilani by a SETI listening post in
AD2045, and how the elites are covering it up...

   Sourcebook anyone?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 02:13:28 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Hull Shape Modifiers in FF&S

- --------------AB47067752CF081721989F67
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On p.104 table 160: Hull Shape Modifiers lists all the modifiers for the
differnt shaped hulls. But for the wedge shape the following are
missing...

    Streamlining Cost Modifiers:
            AF

    Dimension Modifiers for:
            Length
            Width
            Height

Are these not supposed to be there or are they just missing. If they are
just missing does anybody have and idea what they shoul be?

Alex Rebsch
grazzit@flash.net

- --------------AB47067752CF081721989F67
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
On p.104 table 160: Hull Shape Modifiers lists all the modifiers for the
differnt shaped hulls. But for the wedge shape the following are missing...

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Streamlining Cost Modifiers:
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
AF
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dimension Modifiers for:
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Length
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Width
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Height
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>Are these not supposed to be there or are they just missing. If they
are just missing does anybody have and idea what they shoul be?

<P>Alex Rebsch
<BR><A HREF="mailto: grazzit@flash.net">grazzit@flash.net</A></HTML>

- --------------AB47067752CF081721989F67--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 19:41:39 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: FF&S2 Errata

I think I've found an omission in FF&S2, table 185 Control Systems seems to
be missing.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 03:19:02 -0500
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Idea (skills related)

David Smart wrote:
> 
> Glenn Crawford wrote:
> >
> > Here is an idea that has been bouncing around in my head for a while.
> > Instead of tying skills to a given either/or stat, why not provide secondary
> > stats? They are the average of the two stats, round up. You do not have to
> > name them, I just did it to give a feel for the particular comboes.
> > St=Strength, De=Dexterity, En=Endurance, In=Intelligence, Ed=Education,
> > So=Social
> > NEW STATS
> > Fitness (StEn)
> > Agility (StDe)
> > Presence  (StSo)
> > Reflexes  (DeIn)
> > Grace  (DeSo)
> > Willpower  (EnIn)
> > Experience  (InEd)
> > Wit  (InSo)
> > Style  (EdSo)
> >
> 
> Nicely done, Glenn! I'm trying to get an MT campaign started and was
> trying to think of how to use the stats better in the task rolls.
> I was starting to look at how Determination was derived and your idea
> is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

Years ago I revamped my CT/MT game with the following secondary
characteristics which worked out well. I use them today in my MT
universe.

Speed - PC's quickness and agility. I use Action Points with 6 second
combat rounds. I use Speed in determining Initiative Roll for surprise.

Body Mass - Indicator of PC's overall height, weight and physique. 
I then rolled body type as normal, endomorphic, ectomorphic or
mesomorphic. Weight and height varied between sexes.

Appearance - Indication of PC's physical attractiveness and personal
presence. Not just surface beauty, but also physical deformaties,
personal grooming, dress, mannerism, walk, and voice. Character with low
or hight Appearance will be noticable in a crowd. It would be race and
sex specific.

Charisma - Measure of personal charm, wit, humor, attitude, social
skills and sex appeal - in short, Personality. Used only when attempting
to influence NPC's.

Awareness - PC's observational and perceptive powers. Would include
sight and hearing abilities as well as an intitutive sixth sense. High
Awareness would imply character consistently notices details.

Loyality - Measure of patriotism towards the IMPERIUM. Defined as
attitude towards, or concern for, his homeworld, family, friends and
unit. I also use it as PC's sense of lawfulness, intergity and sense of
honor/duty. I intergrate this into my game as the military security
clearance and credit worthlyness (bank credit line). Low loyality rarely
gets weapons permits or cooperation from Imperial organizations.

Determination - PC's will power, ego strength, competitiveness and
bravery. High score here would means high confidence in his abilities
and would find it hard to give up on a task. I also use this as an
indicator of psionic aptitude.

Comments please.

Alex Ingram
Desktop Publisher/Graphic Designer from Dallas, Texas
Traveller player from 1978!
ingram@airmail.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 01:27:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote

[Second try at sending this message]

> Using active sensors: ships using any using any active sensor any active
>         sensor must annouce this to all ships with functional active or
>         passive sensors within a range equal to the active sensor range +
>         passive sensor range minus 5 (which is normally the whole solar
>         system and occasionally the whole subsector.) 

<=500,000,000   3 AU                            interplanetary  14
<=1,600,000,000 10 AU                                           14.5
<=5,000,000,000 30 AU                           outsystem       15
<=16,000,000,000  100 AU                                        15.5
<=50,000,000,000  300 AU                        oort            16
<=500,000,000,000 3000 AU                                       17

At these longer ranges speed of light lag will become significant.  How
about, as an advanced rule, ships using active sensors only have to tell
ships that are close enough that they could detect it _in_1_turn_.  This
would seem to me to be only those ships at range 14 or less (3AU = 1,500
light seconds = 30 light minutes = as far away as you can get
information at the speed of light in 1 turn).  When you user active
sensors you do have to tell ships at longer ranges as well- but not for
a few turns.

For example your large military ship jumps in system and uses its high
powered active sensors to scan it.  The enemy scout ship in the Oort
cloud (range = 16) is going to notice this - but not for 50 hours.

On the other hand you may be able to detect their _mass_ right away
based on the gravitational effect.  Maybe as a further refinement ships
with can detect ships instantly at long distances only if they have the
right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
soley on the targets mass.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 12:53:40 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@atos-group.com>
Subject: WSV suit question

I have a questionon the visual suits that a character can have with him.

Let's talk about the WSV suit which have most of the visual improovement
such device can have.

So WSV is a passive IR to UV viewer suite

I both UV and IR uses false color to make the image visible to wearer but I
was wondering what the guy can see in different wavelength during
day/night/obscurity

Day/IR : much like regular VL image but in negative (white is colder than
black). Walking people leave trace of their passage for a fiew minutes on
the ground. Engins lights the road under the car, the top of the car is
very bright because of the sun. Boats leave a long "tail" behind them

Day/UV : ? (please help)

Night/IR : Doesn't make many difference from day except that the image is
less precise for non living and non animate creatures/objects. The car
would still lighten the road but the hardtop would be the coldest part of
the car. The driver could be well seen inside the car.

Night/UV : ? (please help)

Obscurity/IR : Only thinks that produce heat (people/animated objects) are
visible. would Plants be visible? Would a person create sufficient IR
emission to "light" a small room?

Obscurity/UV : ? (please help)


BTW what is the difference between HRT and IR viewer?

And if it possible to seen trought walls with IR devices. Surely not a
precise image, but maybe it's possible to know that the next room is
inhabited by one or two people...

Thanks for help


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@atos-group.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:20:58 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #08: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Rules:   Update 8/5/97  -  07:00 EDT         

Starting today I will begin the goingx1, goingx2, gone process.
I have put today's date by all leading bids.  In two days
(barring any new activity), these will move to goingx1, then
goingx2 in two more days and gone two days after that.  New
bids will start the goingx1, goingx2, gone process over.

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5)

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net (8/5)
        $12.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 8.00 stackmc@aol.com

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $35.00 cgriffen@cisco.com (8/5)
        $32.00 rmorris@wyoming.com
        $30.00 teflonkid@voyager.net
        
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5)

Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5)

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00  
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net (8/5)

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $ 3.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/5)

TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com (8/5)
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        

TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $15.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/5)
        $15.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com (8/5)

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com (8/5)

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 6.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5)

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/5)
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net

GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (8/5)
        $ 7.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 5.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                       
        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net (8/5)
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/5)
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5)

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1647
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1648



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu
GATEWAY
Re: FF&S Here -- My opinion on Jump Drives
Sign the Petition to free the DGP Material!
Re: Cities in Flight
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
Duels
Re:Definitve Sensor Rules
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
Re: WSV suit question
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: new items and math question
Re: Star Trigger
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
Laser Grav Pulse???
Re: GATEWAY
Re: Fencing Styles
Re: Star Trigger

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 00:08:35 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Will buy for $175.00

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 12:58:35 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: GATEWAY

Someone asked what Gateway was: it's the second part of The Long Way Home
campaign adventure (the first part being "Long Way Home"). Originally
published as a single volume - "The Long Way Home" by British Isles
Traveller Support, September 1996.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:17:37 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: FF&S Here -- My opinion on Jump Drives

Moin David Murray,

> Jump Drive and Jump Fuel volume at higher TL is MY big problem.

	mine also, I prefer TNE jump drives, where fuel was
	5*jdrivedisplacement for a full jump, and not
	10%shipdisplacement per parsec.

	A private rule of thumb, saying that any if you are
	building a jump drive on a higher tech level than
	the minimum for contruction, gives a discount of 5%
	per tech-level difference, would make me much happier.

	BUT: T4 changed it the other was round ;-(

	Here is my table for fuel consuption per hull displacement

	TL/Jump	1	2	3	4	5	6
	9	10%
	10	9.5%
	11	9%	15%
	12	8.5%	14.25%	20%
	13	8%	13.5%	19%	25%
	14	7.5%	12.75%	18%	23.75%	30%
	15	7%	12%	17%	22.5%	28.5%	35%

	divide these numbers by maxjump to get fuel for 1 parsec
	divide these numbers by 5 to get jump drive displacement

	So for a 100dt scout

	tl  9 jump 1 drive : 2.0 dt +10   dt fuel per parsec
	tl 10 jump 1 drive : 1.9 dt + 9.5 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 15 jump 1 drive : 1.4 dt + 7.0 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 11 jump 2 drive : 3.0 dt + 7.5 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 12 jump 2 drive : 2.85dt + 7.12dt fuel per parsec
	tl 15 jump 2 drive : 2.4 dt + 6.0 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 12 jump 3 drive : 4.0 dt + 6.6 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 15 jump 3 drive : 3.4 dt + 5.6 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 13 jump 4 drive : 5.0 dt + 6.2 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 15 jump 4 drive : 4.5 dt + 5.6 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 14 jump 5 drive : 6.0 dt + 6.2 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 15 jump 5 drive : 5.7 dt + 5.7 dt fuel per parsec
	tl 15 jump 6 drive : 7.0 dt + 5.8 dt fuel per parsec

	So the most fuel economic would be the Jump3-TL15 Liner,
	and a Jump2-TL12 Far-Trader would as economic as a
	Jump1-TL15 Main-Trader. This IMHO does not cripple
	balance as (in TNE setting) the price is dependent
	from tech level.

	e.G. a Jump 1 drive build on Regina would cost 58.8 MCr
	while build on a TL12 world it would cost 71 local MCr,
	converts by 17/20 = 59.9 Regency MCr. If the local
	starport is poor it only converts 14/20 = 49.9 R-MCr.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:25:31 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Sign the Petition to free the DGP Material!

Yo Folks,
    Since my original message declaiming Roger Sanger's disservice to the
DGP material I've received a number of supportive messages. Rather than
just take that as a private confirmation of what I feel I'd like to turn it
into a market force whereby we can, hopefully, pursuade him to take action.
To this end I've created a petition and placed it on the web. I'd ask each
of you who would like to see the DGP material back in publication to visit
the page, http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/dgp, and sign it. There is
plenty of space on the form for additional comments.
    The text of the petition is as follows:

"Given the high esteem in which these works are held by the player
community, Mr. Sanger's inactivity is an insult to the people who
originally produced them. We, the undersigned, roundly chastise Roger
Sanger for sitting on these and call upon him to
1. Release these works in to the Public Domain so that the free
promulgation of them will make them available to all Traveller players.
OR
2. Allow the works to be purchased by someone else who has actually
published some Traveller material in the past year with the commitment that
they will begin bringing these works back to the market."

    If you do not have web-access you can e-mail your comments to me and
I'll post them on your behalf.
         Cheers,
             Jo Grant

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:59:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Cities in Flight

 
	Read it.  It`s the source of such Traveller ideas as TDK
explosives, black/white globes and such.  While it isn`t
Travelleresque I found it very enjoyable.


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:53:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

 
> The advanced rules add many more sensitivity modifiers
> 
> Condition	  Active Sig.	  Passive Sig.	   Passive Sig.
> 		  (radar)	  (emitted/IR)	   (reflected/vis)
> Evading		-0.5		-0.5		-0.5

Is this for any evasion >=1g?  I wonder if (for advanced rules, of
course) evasion might get a bigger mod for outstanding success on
the FC solution roll at least.  That provides an incentive for
increasing evasion.  I guess a modifier on the fire task itself
covers that as well as anything else though.

> using HEPlaR 1-2G	+0.0		+0.5		+0.0
> using HEPlaR 3-20G	+0.0		+1.0		+0.0
> using HEPlaR 21G+	+0.0		+1.5		+0.0

Perhaps there would be an additional + mod for ships using HEPlaR
above a certain mass.  So Large+ ships add +0.5 for any HEPlaR use
and Gigantic add +1.0 or something (in additon to what is above).
This to just cover the *huge* exhaust plumes of a BB with multi-g
HEPlaR chugging along (the reaction mas can be thousands of dtons a
burn for those suckers).

There as just a post to the TML regarding light lag and long
distance detections using these rules.  I played around with
extremely long range targets, and capitol ships will be seen from
huge distances.  Getting a FC solution on something a couple
light-hours away seems a little odd, however.  As I see it FC "lock"
is arbitrarily based on assumtions about how well you think your
weapons have a chance of doing (or how well some idealized weapons
would do).  In any case, having the computer thinking is has a good
crack at hitting at a few lhs is a little odd.

It might need to be stated that when the distance is farther than
half a turn's time interval light lag, a FC solution is impossible,
and only BOL weapons may be launched with any chance of sucess.  So
for BL turn lengths 15 l-minutes would be the cutoff.  Another
ideas?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 08:56:12 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

Peter Newman wrote:

> On the other hand you may be able to detect their _mass_ right away
> based on the gravitational effect.  Maybe as a further refinement ships
> with can detect ships instantly at long distances only if they have the
> right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
> that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
> require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
> soley on the targets mass.

On the other other hand, according to special relativity gravity
propagates at the speed of light.

<http://www.landfield.com/faqs/astronomy/faq/part4/preamble.html>

However, until we are able to detect gravity waves from a nearby
supernova or somesuch, the speed of gravity hasn't been actually
measured...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Duels

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Mike Lee wrote:
> ....
> carefully, and pray the other guy's shot doesn't kill him first.  If a man
> fires and misses, he has to literally stand there and wait for his opponent
> to take his shot.  Talk about nerve-wracking.  If both parties miss, they
> reload and try again.
 
Andrew Jackson, before he was president, fought a number of duels. During
one, he was struck by his opponent's shot but managed to remain on his feet.
Jackson insisted on taking his shot, which killed his unfortunate opponent.
Jackson evidently carried the bullet in his chest cavity througout the rest
of his life ... tough old bird.

I have a reproduction copy of a Code Duello published in South Carolina in
the 1820s, which outlines a complex series of proceedures for duels. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:43:19 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re:Definitve Sensor Rules

Shouldn't active sensors be ratings be the factor derived according to the
rules multiplied by 2 and then use 2x range factor when in actual use?
Passive sensors are 1/ range^2 but active are 1/range^4.

I also find some of the sig modifiers playable but unrealistic:
Firing weapons shouldn't be a sig + as the signature from a firing weapon
has nothing to do with the vessels power output etc. I can see the
playability aspect here but it's definately unrealistic as it gives
stealthy ships far to big an advantage. Am I missing something here or
what?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:38:10 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

>> right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
>> that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
>> require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
>> soley on the targets mass.

I've used a simlar system to Bruces for a couple of years and we have Mass
and Neutrino signatures as well. Mass signatures depend on the mass of the
vessel, the gravthrust/thrusterplates thrust and the volume and strength of
g-comp. The neutrino sig depends on the fusion power output and fusion
thruster thrust. The BIG advantage with neutrino sensors is that they can
be mounted inside the hull. My grav sensors works as a VERY weak
tractorbeam that doesn't actually tractor anything but its powerconsumtion
depends on the mass in its lobe divided by range squared. This factor makes
them impractical to mount inside the hull as the short range between
detector and hull will make the powerconsumtion enormous.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:39:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSV suit question

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:

> I have a questionon the visual suits that a character can have with him.
> 
> Let's talk about the WSV suit which have most of the visual improovement
> such device can have.
> 
> So WSV is a passive IR to UV viewer suite
> 
> I both UV and IR uses false color to make the image visible to wearer but I
> was wondering what the guy can see in different wavelength during
> day/night/obscurity

I expect that _all_ the various wavelengths will be false colored to modes
similar to what we see in daylight, since that's where we resolve objects
best, so no 'negative' IR images, no 'green' light intensifiers (which
will probably be wide spectrum by that time, anyway).

As for seeing through walls with IR, that would likely be possible,
depending on the wlls thickness. Certainly, through a thin wall, with some
observation time, you could determine who was in there.

OTOH, they can 'see' you, too!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:52:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

>> using HEPlaR 1-2G     +0.0            +0.5            +0.0
>> using HEPlaR 3-20G    +0.0            +1.0            +0.0
>> using HEPlaR 21G+     +0.0            +1.5            +0.0
>
>Perhaps there would be an additional + mod for ships using HEPlaR
>above a certain mass.  So Large+ ships add +0.5 for any HEPlaR use
>and Gigantic add +1.0 or something (in additon to what is above).
>This to just cover the *huge* exhaust plumes of a BB with multi-g
>HEPlaR chugging along (the reaction mas can be thousands of dtons a
>burn for those suckers).

These are ADDS to the base sig which is more or less dependent on mass.
Adding something with logs is the same as multiplying so thats already in
there.
In my rules I have a little table for each vessel like this (replace x with
actual numbers):
            Active      Passive
Type        Reflected   Reflected   IR   Mass   Neutrino
Popup       x           x           x    x      x
Popdown     x           x           x    x      x
Fullpower   x           x           x    x      x
Idle        x           x           x    x      x
Firing      x           x           x    x      x
Thruster-A  x           x           x    x      x
Thruster-B  x           x           x    x      x
Floorfield  x           x           x    x      x
etc

The highest sig in each category is used for detection purposes and passive
sensors can see in IR and reflected. Any sig that added with sensor factor
and range subtracted gets a 0+ is told to the player if detecting using the
best sig.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:55:08 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

>There as just a post to the TML regarding light lag and long
>distance detections using these rules.  I played around with
>extremely long range targets, and capitol ships will be seen from
>huge distances.  Getting a FC solution on something a couple
>light-hours away seems a little odd, however.  As I see it FC "lock"
>is arbitrarily based on assumtions about how well you think your
>weapons have a chance of doing (or how well some idealized weapons
>would do).  In any case, having the computer thinking is has a good
>crack at hitting at a few lhs is a little odd.


Getting an FC lock has nothing to do with having a good chance of hitting
the target but the fact that you have a good measurement of where the
target is. Shooting depends on target size, range, evasion and computer
speed. Hitting at several lighthours is a no no and also you'd just light
the ship up a bit with your HUGE dispersed laser blob.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 18:05 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: new items and math question

In-Reply-To: <01IM1JLTGDBM90MVZE@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

Robert,

> > Recieved FF&S and Gateway yesterday. 
> > Anyone know what the doubleheaded arrow in the math formulas mean?
> > ex.  Thrust = Accel <-> Volume <-> 10kN
>  
>    In this example, they mean multiplication.

There are an *awful* lot of these. Didn't *anybody* check this before 
it went to the printers?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 18:05 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970804122737.00703630@braeburn.mac.co.nz>

Andrew,

> trigger in the 1100's. However since it requires the deployment of two big
> powerful meson beams close to the star to be triggered as well as physically
> dropping a large probe into the star; I'd say actually using it would be a tad
> on the tricky side.
>  
> Scene in Zhodani Planetry Defence HQ.
> "Okay, so we've got two Darrian ships moving to flank postions on either side
> of our star and another approaching the star at high-G's. Do you think they
> might be up to something?"

Don't forget, these are extremely fast and/or stealthy *TL16* ships. And they'd 
probably have escorts and/or decoys. I wouldn't like to bet my system on being 
able to stop them in time.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:36:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

>Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:16:47 +0000
>From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

>At 05:19 PM 8/4/97 +0000, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>>I was bored one day and wondered if there was any playability
>>in a Milieu based on the Earth system in the 22nd century, up
>>to the point where jump technology is developed.
>>
>>The solar system would be explored, and there may well be
>>colonies, observatories, explorations (2001), drydocks, fuel
>>depots, outposts, relay stations, mining ops (Outland),
>>shuttle and tug ports.
>>
>>The tech level would be 8, with perhaps some TL9 (except
>>without the jump drive).  Grav vehicles would be restricted
>>to the most wealthy states and people.  The 20t launch
>>and the 100t are the only ships in the T4 book which would
>>be directly transferable.  We must also assume a space tug,
>>perhaps little more than a 50t engine which could drag
>>around things displacing up to 200t?
>>
>>Life would be more precarious than that of the typical Imperial,
>>but a scenario there might provide a good background for a
>>large-scope adventure spanning several centuries...
>>
>>Anyone put some work into this?
>>

>This is the same line of thought that motivated me to buy a copy of the
>Merc:2000 rules & gazetters. Was planning on using the political and social
>background from them along with TNE:FF&S as the basis for a campaign set in
>the time just before or during the initial Terran/Vilani meeting at
>Barnard's start.

>Real life, as usual, kept it from getting very far off the drawing board,
>but there are some interesting possibilities. Like long range Vilani scouts
>as possible explanations of UFOs.

>Garry

I have been toying with a Milleu setting like this in my head for a while. 
 Basicaly its a universe in the late 21st century.  Terrans have explored 
most of the Sol syetem.  The moon and mars are major colonies.  J-drive is 
being used for 'microjumping' to pluto and such.  Proxima and Alpha Centauri 
systems have been explored, pending posible coloinization.  And then the 
scout mission to Barnard in 2094(?) discovers something new.

Other HUMANS in space!

I think this would be a cool Milleu setting.  Kind of a "Traveller: First 
Contact" or something.  (Hey, I like the sound of that!)

The tech level would be a moderate TL-9.  Gravatics have been developed, 
making space travel much more easier.  Grav to orbit, then kick in the TL-9 
Fusion Drives.  Most of space is dominated by belters, ever since the big 
lanthanum(or whatever) rush of 2089 in the Asteriod belt.  Luna and Mars are 
major terran colonies, with outposts at the jovian satalites and the deep 
space telescope array at Pluto and Charon.

The PC's could be in the Infantile Terran Scout Service, jumping to Proxima 
or Barnard just in time to contact the Vilani.  Hey It could be the PC's who 
fire the first shot that leads to the Interstellar wars! ;->

 ------------------------
Commander X

This setting has definite possibilities.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:51:13 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

>At these longer ranges speed of light lag will become significant.  How
>about, as an advanced rule, ships using active sensors only have to tell
>ships that are close enough that they could detect it _in_1_turn_.  This
>would seem to me to be only those ships at range 14 or less (3AU = 1,500
>light seconds = 30 light minutes = as far away as you can get
>information at the speed of light in 1 turn).  When you user active
>sensors you do have to tell ships at longer ranges as well- but not for
>a few turns.

This is true. These really really long ranges aren't "combat" situations - more
refereed pre-combat situations - so  I took it as given that a referee 
would deal with the lightlag, but maybe I should spell it out.


>On the other hand you may be able to detect their _mass_ right away
>based on the gravitational effect.  Maybe as a further refinement ships
>with can detect ships instantly at long distances only if they have the
>right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
>that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
>require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
>soley on the targets mass.

Gravitational effects propogate at the speed of light (at least in
our universe.

FFS2 omits grav sensors (an oversight, admittedly - it should have copied
the stuff from FFS1.) My personal feeling is that even with Imperium tech
it's hard to build a grav sensor that can see the gravitational effects
from spacecraft rest masses at any significant distance or with any
significant accuracy, so such sensors aren't useful in space combat.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:14:31 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Laser Grav Pulse???

Bruce Wrote
>Anders writes
>>Bruce wrote
>>>[whommmmp] from laser fire near-misses as the grav focussing pulse
>>>(associated
>>>with each laser pulse) brushes the hull.
>>Wouldn't they "disturb" sensors and laser mirrors as well? Couldn't you use
>>grav-soliton guns as defense against lockons of sensors?
>The whommmp isn't that much of an effect; the active optics in laser
>mirrors and sensors should easily be able to cope with it.
>
What Whommp? The gravitic effects of a grav-focused laser should be
localized to the Firing end only... I thought it uses the gravitics as a
lens, not a confinement beam... based solely upon FF&S 1. I can't see a
canfinement beam until TL16+, based upon the established TL's for tractors
and Repulsors... Besides, Gravitics are OBVIOUSLY some kind of field
effect.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:42:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: GATEWAY

At 12:58 PM 8/5/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Someone asked what Gateway was: it's the second part of The Long Way Home
>campaign adventure (the first part being "Long Way Home"). Originally
>published as a single volume - "The Long Way Home" by British Isles
>Traveller Support, September 1996.

I now have it, and like it, but I do have a question.  Why was it published
in two parts?  This required duplication of some 25 pages or so of material
between the two, as otherwise, needed information would not be present.
This seemed inefficient, though I can see a number of reasons why this
could have been the best way to print it.  (Timing of a major convention,
IG policy that adventures should be short, etc.)

I found it quite worth buying, and will recommend it to people, but I was
surprised at the amount of material on, for example, the Sidurii cluster
that was needed twice.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 20:10 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Fencing Styles

In-Reply-To: <199708011948.PAA14044@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Eris,

> There's a point about Dueling that no one has made yet, in many cultures
> duels often weren't "to the death", but "to first blood", or even the
> "first clash of blades."  The Duel's *purpose* also differed, but was
> usually to satisfy the "honor" and test the character of the participants.

Another point is that the person being challenged usually gets to choose the 
weapons and sometimes the conditions of the duel.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:19:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

Stephen wrote
>On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:29:01, pould@netcom.ca Wrote...
>> They must make sure that the Sword World will not learn about
>> the fact that the trigger doesn't work (at least until some
>> time after the Collapse and the beginning of the Regency).
>    From what I vaguely remember of the pseudophysics desribed in the
>Darrian's
>module the problem resulted from the fact that the Darrian's discovered
>records
>from the original experiment that caused the sub nova flare.  Technical
>schematics of the original probe, early data and such like and it didn't match
>what they had on hand in their current (circa 1100+) Special Arm units.
>So the
>Darrian's started an emergency re-engineering to make their weapons match the
>millenium old specs.
>    Their diplomats and leader started wearing psionic screens because "they
>knew" the Star Trigger was a bluff suddenly.  About a year or so later the
>Darrian's had re-engineered their Star Trigger weapons to match the recovered
>specs and they got back data matching the original data from the early tests.
>Now WE, the overviewing GM's and Player who read AM8, know that the newly
>re-engineered Star Triggers are worthless.  BUT the Darrian's believe they
>work
>and it's that belief that the Zhodani telepaths read in the minds of the
>Darrian's diplomat and leaders and thus are detered.  Because the Darrians
>BELIEVE their Star Trigger works and in all likelyhood They Would Know. ;)
>    As I remember the described pseudophysics in AM8, my copy is packed away,
>the new Star Trigger wouldn't work either.  Mostly because the original sub
>nova flare was a complete and utter accident.  Something to do with how all
>those meson beams communicating with the probe deep within the stellar core
>were interacting if memory serves.

I wouldn't call the Darrian's bluff if I was you...

/////////
S
 P
  O
    I
      L
       E
        R

          W
            A
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               N
                 I
                  N
                    G
///////////////
/////////
S
 P
  O
    I
      L
       E
        R

          W
            A
              R
               N
                 I
                  N
                    G
///////////////
/////////
S
 P
  O
    I
      L
       E
        R

          W
            A
              R
               N
                 I
                  N
                    G
///////////////
/////////
S
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  O
    I
      L
       E
        R

          W
            A
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               N
                 I
                  N
                    G
///////////////
/////////
S
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  O
    I
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       E
        R

          W
            A
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               N
                 I
                  N
                    G
///////////////

Quoting TNE Regency Sourcebook p83 Referees' Library Data

"The Darrians
The Star Trigger
Through much of their recent history the fabled Darrian Star Trigger was
only a bluff. The Maghiz event of -924 was the result of Darrian
activities, but the Darrians were unable to reproduce the event. By keeping
this fact a secret, the Darrians were able to use the purported star
trigger as a powerful deterent weapon.

However, by the late 1110's they were able to isolate the true chain of
events that caused the catastrophic flaring, and by the later 1120s were
able to produce a functional star trigger weapon."

Nasty.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1648
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1649



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

2nd Imperium TL
Second Careers
T4 Errata
Second Careers
Re: Cities In Flight
THUDDD 6 preliminaries
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1647
re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)
Dueling and Equality. 
re: Ship Noises
Re: Star Trigger
Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates
Re: Second Careers
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1646
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1646
Re: Hull Shapes (in general)
Sparklers
Re: Traveller novels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:15:42 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: 2nd Imperium TL

Donning flameproof armour, I venture into the debate (only this once, and I
will never post on RoM TL again, promise)

In Emperor's Arsenal, under Pistol, Laser - 13 it states; Never issued in
any significant numbers, they were still in the field testing stage when
production stopped. 

Earlier in the paragraph, it states that the RoM Laser PIstol was more
innovative, though less refined as the Vilani ones.

To make a long story short (TOO LATE), RoM was a shaky 13. The Vilani were a
solid 11. Like our society, certain technologies had surged ahead of others,
creating social instability. If the Terrans had slowed down their tech
surge, they might have been able to come up with a solution to ruling the
vast former Vilani Empire. But, without the tech surge (some areas reached a
very unreliable TL 14-15) they would not have had the drive to defeat the
Vilani.  The ferocity to kick an old empire over negates the possibility of
stability after. It takes a while to calm down after an adrenaline rush,
whether it is a society or an individual. The ancient Greeks fighting Persia
is a good parallel. The sheer will of the city states to remain free
prevented them from uniting after the immediate threat, and the methodology
for one problem was transferrred to other problems. It took an outsider,
assimilated in many Greek ways to end the wars and finish off the Persians.
American proclivity to firearms is a good modern example; it has been
proposed that since America was born in violence, and since that was the
solution to the first Problem, it follows that it is the solution to all of
them. But it gives America a dynamism that few countries have ever, or will
ever possess. If America dies, it will die in violence. Canadians tend to
see solutions in terms of new laws, as we were born by an act of
legislation. When we die, it will be because we legislated ourselves out of
existence.

Price you pay. Way it goes.

Thank you for your kind attention. I now go back to work, as my lunch is
almost over

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Second Careers

Changing Careers (Draft)
	When a career ends, a new one begins. For most Traveller characters, the=
 new
career is one of Adventurer=85 the character begins adventuring in the un=
iverse
of the far future.
	A character who has ended a career may pursue a new one. Rolls for secon=
d
career enlistment, continuance (but not injury) are subject to a DM of -2=
;
rolls for a third career are subject to a DM of -3; a fourth career is no=
t
permitted. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.
	A character can serve in only one career with rank (Army, Navy, or Marin=
es).


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:39:11 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: T4 Errata

I've gone and pulled together all the "T4" errata (including your SSDS page)
that I could find and located them in one spot. It includes the Pocket Empires
stuff that Joe Walsh posted to the TML, and the Central Supply Catalog errata
that Greg Porter produced.

I plan on keeping it up through the various publications, but I'll be
relying on other folks to be gathering the info (Like Joe & Greg)..

Hope it helps.

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:38:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Second Careers

Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.

Changing Careers. Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a person may
change his chosen occupation. For most people this is not an easy thing to
accomplish. Often, it is not so much a result of choice as of necessity: a
mandatory retirement due to injury, or a failure to continue. Still, some
people simply choose to quit their current career in order to attempt a new
one. Within the Traveller game system, a change in career occurs when a
character ends character generation and begins adventuring.
A character may also change careers and begin a new career in a different
field. After mustering out of his or her first career, the character may
attempt the entire career process in a new field.

Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and continuance)
are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to a DM
of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.

*** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a second
career?

A character with a commission in a previous career automatically receives a
commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest obtained
previously.

*** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about enlisted?
Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).

Are some second careers precluded? 

Any other comments?


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:49:41 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Cities In Flight

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:10:46 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

>Hello all,=20
>
>I stumbled across the James Blish novel, "Cities In Flight," in a =
bookstore
>the other day. For those of you who have already read it, is this book
>applicable for background info for Trav, i.e. how things work etc. If =
so,
>I'll move it up on my "to read" list.

It was a while ago that I read that novel, but basically all the major
Terran cities put domes over themselves and, using some form of
propulsion and anti-grav, become mobile space vehicles. Each city
developed a culture all its own, but eventually their machinery began
wearing out. At the time of the novel there were only a few of them
left.

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 6 preliminaries

As previously mentioned, the August THUDDD will cover a TL-10 System
Defense Boat, 500-1000 tons, with price efficiency a primary criterion --
these are intended for a (relatively) poor pocket empire which can't
squander gigacredits quite so recklessly as certain up-and-coming Imperia
can. :)  A formal Request For Proposals (RFP), schedule, and rules update
will be released by tomorrow evening, August 6.

In answer to one question I've received in several private emails, FFS2
*will* be added to the "valid design systems" list for THUDDD 6.  FFS1 may
still be used under the conditions explained on the THUDDD website, and
QSDS/SSDS are of course still valid as well.

Detailed THUDDD 5 results will be webified and mailed later this week --
sorry for the delay, things have been a bit chaotic of late.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:04:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

 
> >> using HEPlaR 1-2G     +0.0            +0.5            +0.0
> >> using HEPlaR 3-20G    +0.0            +1.0            +0.0
> >> using HEPlaR 21G+     +0.0            +1.5            +0.0
> >
> >Perhaps there would be an additional + mod for ships using HEPlaR
> >above a certain mass.  So Large+ ships add +0.5 for any HEPlaR use
> >and Gigantic add +1.0 or something (in additon to what is above).
> >This to just cover the *huge* exhaust plumes of a BB with multi-g
> >HEPlaR chugging along (the reaction mas can be thousands of dtons a
> >burn for those suckers).
> 
> These are ADDS to the base sig which is more or less dependent on mass.
> Adding something with logs is the same as multiplying so thats already in
> there.

Yes, I know.  But the basic emission sig has to to with PP output,
not size, and HEPlaR is an emissive sig. 

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:13:50 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

 
> Getting an FC lock has nothing to do with having a good chance of hitting
> the target but the fact that you have a good measurement of where the
> target is. Shooting depends on target size, range, evasion and computer

Whatever you call an FC Lock it is arbitrary.  A FC solution is the
point at which you release you weapon to fire.  It has nothing to do
with to-hit, it is what you program your FC system to think "this is
good enough to release weapons."  So it has everything to do with
what your FC system _thinks_ about the chance of hitting.

You can take a shot at Impossible task level, so I'd say that if the
computer says that the task is past impossible, you don't have a
"Lock."  You could just as well say that you don't have a Lock until
Average task level attempts are possible (tight weapons
control---wait until you see the whites of their eyes as it were).

For lightspeed weapons, the computer has one set of FC guidelines,
for missiles another.  A missile with some form of terminal guidance
can be fired with very rough data on where the target is, it'll
adjust for changes as it approaches.

> speed. Hitting at several lighthours is a no no and also you'd just light
> the ship up a bit with your HUGE dispersed laser blob.

You can make some pretty tight grav-focused x-ray lasers in
traveller... :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 22:55:39 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1647

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:40:46 -0400, Dedly@aol.com wrote:

>Hello all,=20
>
>I stumbled across the James Blish novel, "Cities In Flight," in a =
bookstore
>the other day. For those of you who have already read it, is this book
>applicable for background info for Trav, i.e. how things work etc. If =
so,
>I'll move it up on my "to read" list.

You should put it on your "to read" list anyway, but there are
some basic assumptions in that story that don't fit with
Traveller.  I've considered taking some ideas from it and
Traveller-izing them, but none of them really worked well.  The
idea I liked best was their concept of anagathics; the biggest
problem was that they were _too_ good - someone on a regimen of
them was virtually guaranteed to live forever (barring accidents,
etc.).  But rather than one single drug, they had a whole series
of them, each of which focussed on a different aspect of the
problem.

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:58:16 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)

Anders writes (on TML)
>Shouldn't active sensors be ratings be the factor derived according to the
>rules multiplied by 2 and then use 2x range factor when in actual use?
>Passive sensors are 1/ range^2 but active are 1/range^4.

I sneakily divided all the active sensor sensitivies and signatures by two
(effectively) to save players from having to multiply by two while playing.
I think this is the right approach - but it does have two bad consequences:
active sensors have to use a different detection probabilities table (which
drops off faster) and active signatures are really, really coarse (only 4 
different values - -0.5 to +1.5 or so - as you go from missiles to Tigress.)
On the other hand, it has the advantage that active and passive sensitivity
numbers are directly comparable - an A13 and P13 have roughly the same
effective range - whereas if we doubled range factors for active you;d have to
have a A26 and a P13, which looks confusing to me.

>I also find some of the sig modifiers playable but unrealistic:
>Firing weapons shouldn't be a sig + as the signature from a firing weapon
>has nothing to do with the vessels power output etc. I can see the
>playability aspect here but it's definately unrealistic as it gives
>stealthy ships far to big an advantage. Am I missing something here or
>what?

No, you're not missing something - clever weasel that you are you've picked
up on subtlties that everyone else missed. What Anders is saying is that
(since it's a log scale) the "+0.5 sig" for a 100-MW scout is a lot less
power than "+0.5 sig" for a 10000-MW cruiser; simplifying things to say that
"extra (heat) due to weapons fire is proportional to power plant output"
(which is not a bad simplification - the bigger the ship, the more weapons it
has.) However, as Anders noticed, I'm also implicitly saying that weapons
fire on a 0-sig scout is more power than a -1 sig scout-with-baffling, even
if they are identical in all other aspects.

As a playability issue this is obvious - the only practical alternative 
would be to rate the ship;s signature while firing during design, and get a big
signatgure table like Anders. My mental justification was that stealthing
or masking includes putting effort into things like baffling your lasers
so they radiate less waste heat, cool off faster, etc, so a stealthy ship's
lasers really do produce less extra signature than a non-stealthy. This is
similar to the real world - if you design a stealthy aircraft you design it to
have stealthy weapons. It would be more accurate tomake people pay for
"baffled lasers" or soemthing like that - but I didn't do the FFS laser rules
and anyway the system is pushing the level of complexity most people are willing
to live with (opinions, anyone?)

>I've used a simlar system to Bruces for a couple of years and we have Mass
>and Neutrino signatures as well.
It's a judgement call. My opinion is that even with 3-I tech grav and
neutrino sensors aren't good enough to detect spacecraft at significant
ranges. Among other issues, you have to have a way of sheilding your detector
against unwanted gravity and neutrinoes - otherwise grav variations from
people on your own ship, and neutrinoes from your own power plant and from
the sun, swamp the hostile signal. If you *have* such a way of blocking 
neutrinoes, why not just apply it to the power plant so no-one else can
see your neutrinoes?

Anyway, with the Realistic Sensor Model (tm) ships are very easy to detect
just with IR, so (in my opinion) neutrino sensors and grav sensors would add
little (except for detecting people hiding behind rocks.)

Anders - would you be willing to move this discussion to gdw-beta? I think
you and I could discuss sensors well, well past the tolerance of most TML
readers. (Although any TML reader has to have been pretty tolerant by
definition to survive the Task Wars and the Great Second Empire debate.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:07:57 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Dueling and Equality. 

>Andrew Jackson, before he was president, fought a number of duels. During
>one, he was struck by his opponent's shot but managed to remain on his feet.
>Jackson insisted on taking his shot, which killed his unfortunate opponent.
>Jackson evidently carried the bullet in his chest cavity througout the rest
>of his life ... tough old bird.

Didn't he also kill a man with a Bowie knife? Also before he was President.
Speaks volumes for the changes in the "acceptable behavior" tolerated from
public officials.

Makes one wonder what manner of behavior is tolerated from nobles in the
Imperium, and whether or not all Imperial citizen are in any way equal.

But then that's a very complex and loaded question best left in the realm
of the philosophical.

Or is it? :)





Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:04:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Ship Noises

William hostman writes>What Whommp? The gravitic effects of a grav-focused laser should be
>localized to the Firing end only... I thought it uses the gravitics as a
>lens, not a confinement beam... based solely upon FF&S 1. I can't see a
>canfinement beam until TL16+, based upon the established TL's for tractors
>and Repulsors... Besides, Gravitics are OBVIOUSLY some kind of field
>effect.

Not obviously.

If you do the math, if you want the grav focusser to be a point source 
right in front of the laser, it has to have a field of tens of G's to 
bend the light enough - possibly thousands depending on the geometry. 
To me, this seemed implausible.

On the other hand, if grav focussing is a gravity wave travelling along with
the light, continously bending the light inward as diffraction bends it outward,
the required field is a G or less - nice and easy. It doesn't really carry
much energy, either, so you can't use it as a weapon or a defence or a sensor.
A grav field right in front of the laser has tens of meters to bend the
light, so it needs strengths of thousands of G's -  a travelling pulse has
thousands of km.

Put it this way: which do you find more plausible at moderate TL:

(a) a point souce of thousands of G's
(b) a travelling pulse of 1 G

I find (b) much more plausible. I think it actually made it into FFS2 as
canon (ha!). And, finally, it allows you to have cool sound effects during
battles (or even have the pulse rock the whole ship if it's a big laser and
a small ship), which is a nice effect. (The latter requires exaggeration of the
needed fields but might be worth it for drama.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:47:01 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

At 07:19 PM 8/5/97 +0100, Dom wrote:
....
>I wouldn't call the Darrian's bluff if I was you...
>/////////
>S
> P
>  O
>    I
>      L
>       E
>        R
>
>          W
>            A
>              R
>               N
>                 I
>                  N
>                    G
>///////////////
>/////////
>S
> P
>  O
>    I
>      L
>       E
>        R
>
>          W
>            A
>              R
>               N
>                 I
>                  N
>                    G
>///////////////
>/////////
>S
> P
>  O
>    I
>      L
>       E
>        R
>
>          W
>            A
>              R
>               N
>                 I
>                  N
>                    G
>///////////////
....
>However, by the late 1110's they were able to isolate the true chain of
>events that caused the catastrophic flaring, and by the later 1120s were
>able to produce a functional star trigger weapon."

I have been using the Darrian as the bogeymen of the area.  I had a fair
number of Darrian ships survive, and go awandering post Maghiz.  wherever
they show up, they are a number of tech levels up from the locals, and
dangerous to boot.  Because they do not like coercion, they tend to help
people who want to escape it, and because they are not expansionistic, the
PE rulers whose populations have gotten suddenly very feisty have no idea why.

I ran a scenario in 1120 where the players found out that the Darrians had
lost the Star Trigger for a while, and had recently regained it.
Unfortunately, they found out about losing it first, and reported it to
various spy agencies they worked for.  Then when they found out the
Terrible Truth, nobody believed them.

Imagine the horror and shock on the part of the players when they realized
that the Darrians never back down from a bluff, and thus were quite serious
about their threat to blast a dozen stars into novae, flattening the
Zhodani consulate and the nascent Regency.  Further, nobody believed them,
and they were actually sympathetic to the Darrian cause, so they needed a
way to convince everyone to back off, without undercutting Darrian power.

Be aware: in my universe, the Darrian confederation of 1200 is back to full
size, and is up to TL17 on three planets.  They are holding there until
they have all of the planets of the confederacy up to at least TL16, which
they expect to take about 100 years.

They are not making a big deal of it, as they do not want to be disturbed.
The deal with Norris where the Regency made TL16 ships based on the Darrain
model actually happened, but was a double reversal.  Most people thought
that the Darrian ships had been given to Norris to aid in his tech, the
clever realized that the Regency contributed more than the Darrains, and
the truly connected realized that these ships were nothing compared to the
Darrian ships of the line.

Note: the Regency would be most horrified If It Only Knew - the real reason
the Darrians were not affected overmuch by the Virus was that their own
computers had a more stable, if more primitive, form of it installed
already.  Virus advanced Darrian understanding of AI by at least fifty
years.  The Regency can preen and strut about never making a deal with the
Virus, but they have a large power that did so a long time in the past
right on their border.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 17:21:50 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: House Rules: Exchange Rates

>Alright, here's a more shaky rule set I fudged last week
>for quickly determining the currency value of a world.
>
>This cute little formula gives the value, in Credits, of
>the world's basic denarius/shilling equivalent:
>
>Ratio = [ Tech Level
>        + Starport Class (A=2, B=1, C=0, D=-1, E=-2, X=-3)
>        + 3 if a Rich world
>        - 3 if a Poor world ]
>        / 20
>
>Of course, 0 or less means you gotta barter.
>
>So,
>
>Sylea's credit is worth		(15 + 2 + 3) / 20 = 1.0 Credits (surprise)
>Regina's credit is worth	(10 + 2 + 3) / 20 = 0.75 Cr
>Rhylanor's credit is worth	(15 + 2)     / 20 = 0.85 Cr
>Arkadia's credit is worth	(6 - 2)      / 20 = 0.25 Cr
>Darrian's credit is worth       (16 + 2)     / 20 = 0.90 Cr (I think)

Hmmmm... Interesting. Your house rule comes close to the values I looked 
up in Adventure 5: Trillion Credit Squadron. I believe the same Relative 
Value Table is in MegaTraveller somewhere, among other places.

Maybe you're reinventing the wheel in this case?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:21:33 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.
>
> Changing Careers. Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a person
> may
> change his chosen occupation. For most people this is not an easy
> thing to
> accomplish. Often, it is not so much a result of choice as of
> necessity: a
> mandatory retirement due to injury, or a failure to continue. Still,
> some
> people simply choose to quit their current career in order to attempt
> a new
> one. Within the Traveller game system, a change in career occurs when
> a
> character ends character generation and begins adventuring.
> A character may also change careers and begin a new career in a
> different
> field. After mustering out of his or her first career, the character
> may
> attempt the entire career process in a new field.
>
> Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and
> continuance)
> are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to
> a DM
> of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.

Marc, I hate to say it, but this rule isn't any better than the
only-one-career rule.  I won't play with it.  Its even a bit worse,
IMHO.  I think the rule in T4.0 of DM -2 to enlistment per subsequent
career is fine.  It makes it difficult enough to have several careers
but gives the possibility of having a neat character (gratuitous example
deleted ;-)

Also, the DM on all rolls is extreme.  I will never play with these
rules as you've written them.  Sorry   :-(


> *** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a
> second
> career?

Of course not.

> A character with a commission in a previous career automatically
> receives a
> commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest
> obtained
> previously.
>
> *** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about
> enlisted?
> Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).

I always thought this was a bit gratuitous, but you real military types
would know better than me.  BTW, does this mean that you get a bonus
muster out roll and skill for each military career?

> Are some second careers precluded?

An injured or exposed rogue might be forbidden from the Military  and
Noble service due to criminal past.  An exposed Agent would have a tough
time of it as a Rogue.

> Any other comments?
>
> Marc

 The larger issue concerning careers is the relatively few
opportunities.  Basically it Military (Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts),
Dilettante (Noble, Entertainer), 'Business' (Merchant, Rogue) and
Scholar.  Very similar to the old Warrior, Wizard, Rogue archetypes of
fantasy RPGs. If anything, Traveller should have more than simple
variations on that basic theme (although that may not be possible).  Of
course these categories are 'adventurous' and PCs are more likely to
come from these backgrounds.  I guess my qualm is the insistence that a
character have an 'official' career for at least a 4 year stretch.
Looking around the people I know, I would say that a great many of them
don't have 'careers' at all.  Yet somehow they muddle through.  Yet I
love the traveller Char Gen system overall.  I think it would be
broadened by having a few more careers.  But also some standardized way
to generate a character who hasn't already led an adventurous life but
is beginning one.  When you generate a Marine for example and he gets an
injury and an MCUF or something, he already had the adventure.  The
insurance agent laboring away for a number of years in an office may
spend all his spare time learning to fence, or shoot, or star sailing,
or studying xenobiology, waiting for the day he can quit his job and
seek passage on a starship to see what happens.  Of course, I may be
transferring a lot   ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:30:34 -0700
From: sfellows@netcom.com (Steven B. Fellows)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1646

I keep getting the same *&%&* digest in my mailbox.  I must have 30
copies in 2 days.  Please make this stop.

thanks,
Steve F.

sfellows@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:30:34 -0700
From: sfellows@netcom.com (Steven B. Fellows)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1646

I keep getting the same *&%&* digest in my mailbox.  I must have 30
copies in 2 days.  Please make this stop.

thanks,
Steve F.

sfellows@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:29:29 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Hull Shapes (in general)

On this general topic, I have several questions:

What is a closed structure hull?
What is an open structure hull?
How are they different?
Are there some ratios of length x width x height somewhere?
When does a box become a slab?
When does a cylinder become a box?

All of these questions and more are not answered in either the main book
or the Starships book.  (BTW, I have a few bones to pick about the
latter book - although I'm grateful for what info is there, much of it
isn't explained well, if at all - e.g., no real explanation of stealth
and a confusing 20 words or so on EMM - hardly sufficient - and then too
many pages of the same old pictures - but I'll save the whole of that
rant for another post).

Any help is much appreciated.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:44:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Sparklers

What the hell are 'sparklers'? Are they the same as that
supertechnological race from Knightfall - the ones that preceded the
Ancients? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:59:46 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller novels

At 11:21 PM 8/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>There was also an adventure published in Dragon Magazine #59 back in March
>'82, called Exonidas Spaceport, by Jeff Swycaffer.  This IIRC, is part of
>the setting of "Become the Hunted" and details the characters in some of
>the novels and some of the ships (in High Guard stats).
>
>

I didn't recall correctly, it was "The Universal Prey", not "Become the
Hunted".

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1649
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1650



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Chameleon Suits
Milieu: E21
T4 Hydrographic Roll
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Perseid meteor shower peaks this Mon.
Re:  Vanefa subsector
Re: Vanefa Subsector (B/Solomani Rim)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1649
RE: Second Careers
RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1647
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1647
Re: Star Trigger
Re: Duels and Old Hickory!
Re: new items and math question
Re: Second Careers
THUDDD 6 preliminaries
Sell/Trade Items
Laser Whomp

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 16:37:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)

> > Yes, you are right. FFS laser sight are bit big and heavy, so it's not
> > usable on pistols.
> 
> Which is odd, since I can go out now and buy a TL8 laser pointer for 
> ~$50 that's the size/weight of a pen and will reach 100m.

Laser sights for pistols sell for about $400.00, and are about the size
of a cigarette lighter.  "Sight" isn't the right word; it's really a
pointer that tells the shooter where the gun is pointed.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:09:26 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Chameleon Suits

What would be the game effects of the TL12 Chameleon Combat Environment
Suit, as outlined in CT Book 4: Mercenary? Has the CES been converted to
the new game system? 
I loved the Combat Environ Suit, since it provided better protection than
the old Ballistic Cloth armour, could be worn like ordinary combat
fatigues, could be sealed against most (non-vacuum, non-corrosive) hostile 
environments, possessed NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical)
resistance...and was nowhere near as expensive as Combat Armour (aka
Battledress, these days). 
Add in the Chameleon option, and you had great concealment. The CES was
especially useful in mercenary operations against prestellar-tech enemies
(ie TL7-9). 
All in all, the CES was one of the best value-for-money outfits in the
Traveller arsenal. Where has it gone? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:18:31 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Milieu: E21

Two books that I've found contain some fascinating speculations on early
21st century space exploration were actually written for the Cyberpunk
game (R.Talsorian). These books are: 
Near Orbit - R.Talsorian - 1989
Deep Space - R.Talsorian - c.1993 (contains all the rules in Near Orbit,
but not the scenario which is, IMO, one of the best near-future RPG
adventures I have ever seen). 

Most of the 'cyberpunkish' stuff in the CP game really bites, since it has
shown its age very quickly with advancing technology. But the NO and DS
modules, despite a few technical inaccuracies, still have some great
material. 

And finally - they acknowledge "Mark W. Miller" (sic.) along with Gerard
O'Neill and Werner Von Braun as major influences on their material - thus
recognising Traveller's place as the progenitor of SF-RPGs. 

Check them out. Very worthwhile if you're considering a near-future space
exploration game. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:44:40 +0200
From: Mats Erlandsson <mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: T4 Hydrographic Roll

 Hi.

I just started on a computerized Traveller sector generator when I came
upon the roll for Hydrographic in the T4 rule book (page 130):

Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere)

Is this correct? In my CT/MT/TNE books the roll is:

Hydrographic (2D-7+SIZE)

So.....is the T4 version of the hydrographic roll correct?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:18:18 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

>	OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>There's lots there for a Trav game...

Picked it up (Marathon 2) for about $15 at the local fire sale store
(Building 19).

Didn't see the little "Win 95 required" on it.

Pretty box though.

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:24:28 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Perseid meteor shower peaks this Mon.

	Just thought I'd inject a real-life astronomical note here; the
Perseid meteor shower peaks Monday August 11th-Tuesday August 12th this
year.  It promises to be a good show; associated with Comet Swift-Tuttle,
they've been quite spectacular since its last perhilion passage in 1992.
The Perseids are one of the better annual showers; they've dinged Mir
twice, NASA doesn't fly shuttles during their peak period, and they tend to
produce lots of big bright meteors.  In 1992 they were coming at a rate of
400 per hour; although they've declined a bit since then they still put on
a great show.

	In order to observe them, head outside after midnight; the darker
the skies the better.  Look up.  Enjoy.  For more info, pick up the August
issue of Sky&Telescope at your local newsstand, or scope the following URL:

http://www.ticetboo.demon.co.uk/perseids.htm

It's a complete guide to the Perseids and how to observe them.

	Our gaming group has a semi-major expedition planned this year;
we're heading out to a dark-sky site out in the boonies, and weather
permitting will be observing all night long and sending our data in to the
IMO.  It's a worthwhile project; it helps advance science and promises to
be a lot of fun.  For neophyte amateur astronomers meteor observations are
one of the easiest astronomical projects; all you need is paper, lawn
chair, and warm clothes.  Telescopes, binoculars, and so forth are mostly
useless.

	So those of you who've been playing Trav for decades but are
completely unfamiliar with the night sky, this is a great way to wet your
toes and, ObTrav: it's a great way of learning how to visualize re-entry..:)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:38:37 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Vanefa subsector

>I don't know, Michael. I think you've been a bit too hard on this
>subsector. Here are the stats I created for the subsector for a similar
>project spawned on the HIWG list a few months back:

<snip>

>I gave the worlds of the subsector a higher average tech level and a
>maximum TL of 11.


>The EC is described as being almost all worlds within 10 parsecs of
>Easter IIRC. And, as most PEs of Solomani fame are described, largely
>surviving intact throughout the Long Night.

Good points - I admit that I interpreted 'almost all' as 'most'.  Perhaps I
should push the Concord's borders out a little...BTW, if anyone can send me
the data on subsector's M, N, O and P of the Diaspora Sector (in the
'Astrogators Guide' ?), I would be grateful...otherwise I'll use the DGP
Second Survey data.

On tech levels, I see your point.  I believe that I'll push up the tech
levels within the Concord, given that the polity has been stable for 1700
years...outside the Concord however, given that most of those 1700 years
were isolationist, I'm tempted to leave as is or even push down a little.

Thanks for your input Chris.


Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:29:02 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Vanefa Subsector (B/Solomani Rim)

At 20:05 04/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Michael Bailey writes: 
>
>>Part 2 of the SolRim UPP data...once again, comments and suggestions are
>>invited...
>
>   I'm curious about what previous publications you have consulted in
>putting this together.  
>
It's tough getting your hands on a lot of the less available material down
here.  Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim, Alien Module 6:  Solomani and
Solomani and Aslan were used.  Unfortunately, I've as yet been unable to
source the Trav Digest/MT journal issues that dal with the area.


>   For example, the Easter Concord, Vegan Polity, Dingir League, and Old
>Earth Union had long since fossilized within their borders by M:0--how
>is that suddenly the Easter Concord decided to start expanding again?  
>

'Suddenly start' is probably overstating it.I envisaged a slower (almost
glacial at first) process that picked up momentum in later years in
response to external events (the growing power of the expanding Aslan
Heirate, increasing expansion by other former Terran colonies (particularly
in the Aldebaran and Alpha Crucis sectors).  Also, at least one of thge
states, The Old Earth Union, would have to start looking outwards again
soon if, after 212 Imperial,  'Terran exploration ships and merchant
cruisers began plying the space spinward of Magyar' (Solomani & Aslan p62).
 It would make sense that the other states (except possibly the Vegans)
also began looking beyond their borders.

However, the dates can be adjusted, perhaps to place the 001-25 data at the
beginning of the acceleration, rather than a half-century to century into it.

For my campaign, the whole idea was to present the area as being in
transition from it's old moribund and isolationist state, into a period of
at least cautious expansion (reluctantly, but pragmatically)...a process
that has it's opponents.

>   Also, I note that you use the old DGP stellar data for the sector. 
>You should try to get the revised stellar data included in the New Era
>version of the Solomani Rim, which was published in Traveller Chronicle
>#10.  If you can't get access to a copy, the data is available free of
>charge from the author.
>

Good idea, as I believe I have TC#10 in the bookshelf.  I used the DGP
data, then removed most of the dwarf and M class main sequence stars
without habitable zones.  Class VI stars were also altered, as were some
class IV ones (K5-9, M0-9).

>Regards,
>
>Harold
>
Thanks for your input.  This is exactly what I'm after.


Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:06:41 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1649

>
>Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:35:58 -0400 (EDT)
>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Second Careers
>
>Changing Careers (Draft)
>	When a career ends, a new one begins. For most Traveller characters, the
new >career is one of Adventurer=the character begins adventuring in the
universe of the far future.
>	A character who has ended a career may pursue a new one. Rolls for second
>career enlistment, continuance (but not injury) are subject to a DM of
- -2;rolls for a third career are subject to a DM of -3; a fourth career is not
>permitted. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.
>	A character can serve in only one career with rank (Army, Navy, or Marines).

YES!!! Thank you! The only suggestion I would have is that you might want to
have it be a straight -2 per career after the first, thus -4 to enter a
third career. This would make three career characters rarer, and thus
prevent abuse. (I unofficially limit the characters in my campaign to two
careers anyway.)
I assume Education "careers" are not counted toward this total :)

Thanks, Marc :)

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:07:44 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: RE: Second Careers

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCA1F4.72814D60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I personally believe in no limits ..... at least until you reach a =
certain age (Hard to teach an old dog new tricks). I'm only 27 and have =
had several 'careers' (U.S. Army, Student, Medical Tech, Short Order =
cook, and currently ... PC Tech/Network Engineer.)=20

- -----Original Message-----
From:	CardSharks@aol.com [SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, August 05, 1997 5:38 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Second Careers

Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.

Changing Careers. Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a person may
change his chosen occupation. For most people this is not an easy thing to
accomplish. Often, it is not so much a result of choice as of necessity: a
mandatory retirement due to injury, or a failure to continue. Still, some
people simply choose to quit their current career in order to attempt a new
one. Within the Traveller game system, a change in career occurs when a
character ends character generation and begins adventuring.
A character may also change careers and begin a new career in a different
field. After mustering out of his or her first career, the character may
attempt the entire career process in a new field.

Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and  continuance)
are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to a DM
of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.

*** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a second
career?

A character with a commission in a previous career automatically =
receives a
commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest =
obtained
previously.

*** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about =
enlisted?
Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).

Are some second careers precluded?=20

Any other comments?


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:34:44 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll

On Wednesday, 6 August 1997 12:45, Mats Erlandsson
[SMTP:mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se] wrote:
[snip]
> Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere)
> 
> Is this correct? In my CT/MT/TNE books the roll is:
> 
> Hydrographic (2D-7+SIZE)
> 
> So.....is the T4 version of the hydrographic roll correct?

I thought it has always been 26-7+atmosphere as the denser the
atmosphere the more water there is likely to be.

BCD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:04:05 -0700
From: sfellows@netcom.com (Steven B. Fellows)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1647

I am STILL getting multiple copies of the same digests.  I just got
20 digests all the same three from the last couple of days.  Will
someone at MPGN please investigate this?

thanks,
Steve F.
sfellows@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:04:05 -0700
From: sfellows@netcom.com (Steven B. Fellows)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1647

I am STILL getting multiple copies of the same digests.  I just got
20 digests all the same three from the last couple of days.  Will
someone at MPGN please investigate this?

thanks,
Steve F.
sfellows@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 22:13:14 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

On 08/05/97 at 06:05 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>> Scene in Zhodani Planetry Defence HQ.
>> "Okay, so we've got two Darrian ships moving to flank postions on either side
>> of our star and another approaching the star at high-G's. Do you think they
>> might be up to something?"

>Don't forget, these are extremely fast and/or stealthy *TL16* ships. And
>they'd  probably have escorts and/or decoys. I wouldn't like to bet my
>system on being  able to stop them in time.

Sounds like a job for "jump torpedos!" <gd&r>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 21:56:05 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Duels and Old Hickory!

On 08/05/97 at 12:00 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:

>Andrew Jackson, before he was president, fought a number of duels. During
>one, he was struck by his opponent's shot but managed to remain on his
>feet. Jackson insisted on taking his shot, which killed his unfortunate
>opponent. Jackson evidently carried the bullet in his chest cavity
>througout the rest of his life ... tough old bird.

Later, a political opponent attacked him on the steps of the capitol
building and Jackson beat the stuffings out of him with his walking stick. 
Yeah, Jackson was one tough old bird! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 22:12:06 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: new items and math question

On 08/05/97 at 06:05 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>> > Recieved FF&S and Gateway yesterday. 
>> > Anyone know what the doubleheaded arrow in the math formulas mean?
>> > ex.  Thrust = Accel <-> Volume <-> 10kN
>>  
>>    In this example, they mean multiplication.

>There are an *awful* lot of these. Didn't *anybody* check this before  it
>went to the printers?

There were a number of us who looked at the draft before it went to IG, and
I just want to say, in the last draft *I* saw this formula was correct. 

However, I viewed the draft using Word 6.0 and Dave used the formula editor
and saved it using Word 95. I had continuing trouble getting formulas to
display correctly. I'd get all kinds of strange things instead of "pi" or
"times" or "square root", depending on the size of the fonts or the shape
of the formula area..and the phase of the moon. ;-< If I saved a file with
those strange things showing that's how they got saved too.  

I wonder if the IG folks (or printers) had a similar problem, but not
*knowing* the screwed up formulas didn't make sense....


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 22:53:41 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Second Careers

On 08/05/97 at 05:38 PM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:

>Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.

>Changing Careers. Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a person may
>change his chosen occupation. For most people this is not an easy thing to
>accomplish. 

<snip>

>Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and continuance)
>are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to a
>DM of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.

>*** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a second
>career?

No! 

>A character with a commission in a previous career automatically receives
>a commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest
>obtained previously.

>*** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about
>enlisted? 

Good question.  I know people that have moved from Marines to Army and Navy
to Marines, but I don't know how much, if any, rank they lost. Losing 1 or
2 levels seems reasonable.

>Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).

I'd be inclined to say that once you get to E or O 7+, any time in another
*service* would be more a matter of cross-training/posting than an actual
career change.  Admiral Dudley leaves the Imperial Navy to accept a
commission as General Dudley..I've got my doubts.

>Are some second careers precluded? 

Probably, not.

>Any other comments?

It might work best to have a PC start at the bottom for all careers.  If
you've spent 16 years in the Navy working  your way up to Captain, the
player is going to think twice about starting a second career in the Army
as a 2nd Lt.  Doing this the PC can switch to any career, but there is a
severe penalty for doing so, especially once they've built up some tenure.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:03:40 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: THUDDD 6 preliminaries

>As previously mentioned, the August THUDDD will cover a TL-10 System
>Defense Boat, 500-1000 tons, with price efficiency a primary criterion --
>these are intended for a (relatively) poor pocket empire which can't
>squander gigacredits quite so recklessly as certain up-and-coming Imperia
>can. :)  A formal Request For Proposals (RFP), schedule, and rules update
>will be released by tomorrow evening, August 6.

Does this mean that there will be a THUDDD voting catagory this month
entitled "best bargain on the lot, er....ahem, I mean on the tarmack." :)
This lowest bidder thing may mean that some SDB are not exactly the best
money can
buy but the best that the Kaguk Fishfarmers Cooperative can afford to
protect thier great Red Tarbot stocks. Hey, wait a minute, that's an idea...

I still think 400 tons is the ideal size for an SDB. :)

Will you be giving us an example ship to emulate or scorn? Or is this ship
catagory too open ended for something like this?




Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:14:16 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Sell/Trade Items

I am looking to trade for (in good or better shape):
        MTJ 2 (Mega Traveller Journal Issue 2)
        Dbl Adv 4 (GDW, CT)
        Adv 2,4,7,11,12 (GDW, CT)
        Alien Module 8: Darrians (GDW, CT)
        Dark Nebula boardgame (Everything there is a must; played is fine)
        5th Frontier War Boardgame (Ditto)
        The Adjutant (Certain Issues only, I need to find my Striker Box to know
            which)

I am willing to Sell or trade any of the Following (Prices negotiable)
        MTJ 3, Very good
        Challenge 32 Good
        Imperial Encyclopedia (MT), Cover damage, highlighted
        101 vehicles (MT), Fine condition (has owner name blacked out)
        CT supp 12:Forms & Charts, Good condition (Cover Scuff, 2 pp have minor
                ink speckles)
        CT Supp 11: Library Data N-Z, Good, Highlighting.
        Ascent to Anekthor (CT, Gamelords) Fine. For use with Mountain Env.
        MT Rebellion SourceBook (GDW), Fine Cond
        MT COACC (GDW) Fine Cond

Sell:
        One boxed set MT, Like NEW CONDITION, in box, with map and errata, and
            response card! (Minimum $35). Only the Shrink Wrap is missing.
        CT Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium (min $10). New condition.

Contact me via Private E-mail ONLY on these items

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:45:00 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Laser Whomp

>Put it this way: which do you find more plausible at moderate TL:
>
>(a) a point souce of thousands of G's
>(b) a travelling pulse of 1 G

(c) a series of 15 to 20 G point sources. All at the mounting end. It makes
sense based upon FF&S 1's description.

>I find (b) much more plausible. I think it actually made it into FFS2 as
>canon (ha!).

Well, it shows, as I feared would happen, T4 is less hard sci-fi than any
previous incarnation pf trav. It violates one of marc's rules for the
traveller millieu... no zapotron rays. Any grav-pulse CAN BE a weapon of
it's own. I recieved 5-6 "hate mails" off-list when I pointed it out during
a previous discussion.

And also insures that I will not buy FF&S2. At least not new. T4 keeps
changing the mechanics of the UNIVERSE... (t'were me big complaint bout
TNE's lack of T-Plates).

>And, finally, it allows you to have cool sound effects during
>battles (or even have the pulse rock the whole ship if it's a big laser and
>a small ship), which is a nice effect. (The latter requires exaggeration of the
>needed fields but might be worth it for drama.)

I cannot see a "travelling pulse" at all... as all known gravity effects
that have been measurable have been uniform field effects.

As for Whomping the ship, any laser HIT WILL create a whomp, as the
affected point of impact is vaporized, and creates a thrust.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1650
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1651



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Can you help & FFS arrived in UK
Gateway
RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Hull Shapes (in general)
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Violent politicians...
Re: Laser Whomp
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Auction Update #09: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)
Re: Sparklers
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Shipplans and stuff.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 02:17:50 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Glenn Crawford writes:

>Donning flameproof armour, I venture into the debate (only this once, and I
>will never post on RoM TL again, promise)

   Oh, now how can we put you on a spit and roast you if you won't hold
still?  :-)

>In Emperor's Arsenal, under Pistol, Laser - 13 it states; Never issued in
>any significant numbers, they were still in the field testing stage when
>production stopped. 
>
>Earlier in the paragraph, it states that the RoM Laser PIstol was more
>innovative, though less refined as the Vilani ones.
>
To make a long story short (TOO LATE), RoM was a shaky 13.

   Interesting implications for MMT users.  Nothing new here for the
Traveller Canon Orthodoxy.

>Like our society, certain technologies had surged ahead of others,
>creating social instability. If the Terrans had slowed down their tech
>surge, they might have been able to come up with a solution to ruling the
>vast former Vilani Empire.

   Using this logic, the most technologically advanced societies today
should be the most unstable.  We're talking about the U.S., Japan, and
select countries in Western Europe (i.e. Switzerland).  Ooops!  All
those countries are by far the most *stable*.

   Rapid technological advance will not bring about instability in a
culture, but on the other hand, it doesn't guarantee it either.   

>But, without the tech surge (some areas reached a very unreliable TL 14-15) 
>they would not have had the drive to defeat the Vilani.  

   Speaking from the Traveller perspective, there is enough of a
difference between TL 11 and TL 12 that it would have given the Terran a
decisive enough advantage so that TL 13+ would not be required.

   From the Marc Miller's Traveller perspective, my impression was that
the Terrans don't go beyond TL 12 until *after* the Vilani Empire fell,
thus rendering your point moot.

>The ferocity to kick an old empire over negates the possibility of
>stability after. It takes a while to calm down after an adrenaline rush,
>whether it is a society or an individual. The ancient Greeks fighting Persia
>is a good parallel. The sheer will of the city states to remain free
>prevented them from uniting after the immediate threat, and the methodology
>for one problem was transferrred to other problems. It took an outsider,
>assimilated in many Greek ways to end the wars and finish off the Persians.

   Well the Macedonians claimed to be Greek--even though the people from
the city-states thought of them as country hicks who should stay on the
other side of the mountians (funny...they still treat them the same way
today...).

   The primary reason that instability develops in the wake of an
empire's collapse has to do more with the power vacuum that gets created
than any failings on the part of the conquerers.  In cases where the
conquerers are able to "fill the shoes" of the previous government,
instability is less of a problem.

>American proclivity to firearms is a good modern example; it has been
>proposed that since America was born in violence, and since that was the
>solution to the first Problem, it follows that it is the solution to all of
>them. But it gives America a dynamism that few countries have ever, or will
>ever possess. 

   While some Americans talk big, and a few of the crazier ones shoot
first and ask questions later, the vast majority of Americans see
firearms as a last resort, and pretty much always have (remember the
Declaration of Independence talks about how the Colonies tried to
resolve things peaceably first).  In the movies, the hero is the one who
takes up arms in response to violence or the threat of violence.  This
is a case where Hollywood reflects the people's attitudes and beliefs.

   In frontier days, people had no choice but to take up arms, since
bandits, ruffins, and the occasional band of natives could slaughter you
days (or weeks) before help could arrive.  Today, bandits and ruffins
still exist (though the natives now run casinos--these are still
potentially dangerous to your wallet), as does '911' and large police
forces who usually arrive in time to clean up the mess after somebody
breaks in to your home.  For this reason people generally still feel the
need to be armed.

>If America dies, it will die in violence.

   If America dies, it will be because the majority of people would
rather have the government take care of them instead of taking care of
themselves.  America is a set of ideas more than a set of borders.  When
those ideas die, America will go with them.

>Canadians tend to see solutions in terms of new laws, as we were born by 
>an act of legislation. When we die, it will be because we legislated 
>ourselves out of existence.

   Not to tell you how to run your country (that's not my job), but IMHO
before Quebec or the other provinces would be allowed to secede, they
would have to do so with the sword, not the pen.  "Anything worth having
is worth fighting for", so said somebody before my time.

Regards,

Harold


Price you pay. Way it goes.

Thank you for your kind attention. I now go back to work, as my lunch is
almost over

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 07:44:05 +0100
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Can you help & FFS arrived in UK

Hi, I'm just wondering if anyone on the TML can help me with some info:

Dark Star was an A5 UK traveller microzine written by a guy called Trevor 
Graver in 1981. It had I think 6 issues. Did anyone ever get the promised 
issue 7 ? Does anyone have issue 3 as i'm missing it.

Alien Star was a UK traveller fanzine from 81 to 82. Were there only 8 
issues?

Were there only 2 issues of FASA's Far Traveller Magazine?

Were there only 5 issues of FASA's High Passage Magazine?

Did FASA ever publish the promised double adventure A8 - Piracy/Stardust 
or A9 Target:Assassin (see the inside back cover of Rescue on Galatea)? 
Both were meant to come out summer 82.

BTW, I just got my copy of FFS through the post - excellent service 
considering I'm in London UK. Looks okay, shame the tables are squashed 
up at the back and some are duplicated. Haven't had time to build 
anything yet, just skimming. Still no explanation of what Synapic fluidic 
controls are... What on earth is the <-> typo in the formulas meant to be?

David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:28:54 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Gateway

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> asked, about GATEWAY:

>I now have it, and like it, but I do have a question.  Why was it published
>in two parts?  This required duplication of some 25 pages or so of material...

You guessed right, in that IG expect future adventure booklets to be 64
pages in length, and there was no way that we were going to be able to
squeeze the 100 pages of TLWH into 64 pages. We intended that the 50-odd
star systems should be detailed in both books but there was insufficient
room in LWH, so these were left for Gateway. We pointed out at the time that
there would be some duplication between the books, and encouraged IG to go
for a 100 page campaign booklet, but they had made their mind up (printing
costs, and all that). Hopefully the extra adventure we put in each book
will, to some degree, compensate.

>I found it quite worth buying, and will recommend it to people...

Thanks! :-) David and I are receptive to any criticisms anyone might have,
particularly anything that might help for the next adventure we're writing
for IG.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:35:07 +0200
From: Mats Erlandsson <mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll

On Wednesday, August 06, 1997 8:02 AM, Brody  Dunn 
[SMTP:brody@intersol.co.nz] wrote:
>  
>> [snip]
> > Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere)
> > 
> > Is this correct? In my CT/MT/TNE books the roll is:
> > 
> > Hydrographic (2D-7+SIZE)
> > 
> > So.....is the T4 version of the hydrographic roll correct?
> 
> I thought it has always been 26-7+atmosphere as the denser the
> atmosphere the more water there is likely to be.
> 

 No, it has ALWAYS been 2D6-7+Size until T4 came out.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

In a message dated 97-08-05 15:31:06 EDT, you write:

<<  This setting has definite possibilities.  >>

I agree.

Marc

Draft Outline.
* Introduction
* Setting
* Characters
* Mechanics
* The Solar System
* Vehicles and Equipment
* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
drive and the Vilani.

What else?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:39:45 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Hull Shapes (in general)

On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:29:29 -0500, you wrote:

>On this general topic, I have several questions:
>
>What is a closed structure hull?

A closed structure is one that doesn't easily fit one of the other
descriptions, yet has a compact design. It doesn't look like a box,
sphere or wedge/needle. Offhand I can't think of an example of such a
ship.

>What is an open structure hull?

An open structure has a lot of "space" between the parts. The best
example would be the Constellation class starships in Star Trek. The
hulls are seperate from each other with connecting structures in
between. This hull IMO would be best for a carrier that you don't want
to land in an atmosphere, as all that surface area allows the small
craft to launch at once.

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:10:30 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>
>>	OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>>There's lots there for a Trav game...
>
>Picked it up (Marathon 2) for about $15 at the local fire sale store
>(Building 19).
>
>Didn't see the little "Win 95 required" on it.
>
>Pretty box though.


	Yeah... the production values on the game etc are generally pretty
high.  When you read the manual, scope out the blurb on the flamethrower;
it had Ross, myself, and another of our players laughing like hyaenas in
the subway.  Think we scared some passengers :).

	If you need any help through sticky spots let me know; I'm
currently playing my way through M2 for about the 4th time or so.

	And you should dig the textures on the alien ships.  The guy who
came up with them had a pretty good if rather warped take on what H.P.
Lovecraft was driving at; Lounge Cthulhu :).

	Have fun.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:11:52 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Violent politicians...

Eris wrote:

>
>Later, a political opponent attacked him on the steps of the capitol
>building and Jackson beat the stuffings out of him with his walking stick.
>Yeah, Jackson was one tough old bird! ;->


	A few years back, Pierre Trudeau, who was PM for most of the 70's
and early 80's and IMHO one of the best PM's we've ever had (prepare for
explosions from K.C. and Pierre-Louis on this one ;>) was walking out of a
restaurant when he was accosted by a comedian, whose schtick was to pose as
an annoying interviewer, accost celebrities, subject them them to a
fast-paced barrage of obnoxious questions, and show tape thereof on his
show (which was actually kinda funny; I used to watch it when it was on).

	At the time well into his 70's, Trudeau spun, kicked him in the
crotch in front of dozens of witnesses _and_ a couple of TV cameras, and
continued on his way unperturbed.  It was a good kick, too.

	Gotta love the guy for that :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:12:19 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Laser Whomp

William F. Hostman wrote:

[snip]
>And also insures that I will not buy FF&S2. At least not new. T4 keeps
>changing the mechanics of the UNIVERSE... (t'were me big complaint bout
>TNE's lack of T-Plates).
>
>>And, finally, it allows you to have cool sound effects during
>>battles (or even have the pulse rock the whole ship if it's a big laser and
>>a small ship), which is a nice effect. (The latter requires exaggeration
>>of the
>>needed fields but might be worth it for drama.)
>
>I cannot see a "travelling pulse" at all... as all known gravity effects
>that have been measurable have been uniform field effects.
>
>As for Whomping the ship, any laser HIT WILL create a whomp, as the
>affected point of impact is vaporized, and creates a thrust.


	Actaully, this whole grav focussed lasers question has always made
me wonder why gravitational weapons, either suddenly creating lenslike
point sources in the target's galley, er, bridge, or hitting it with
travelling pulses, haven't been developed for higher TL's in Traveller.

	I mean, let's face it; their destructive potential is _enormous_
<evil mad scientist laughter> and they'd just be a logical extension of
either the grav point source lens or travelling annular pulse technologies.
I can just see an Ancient-level weapon that just collapsed targets into
little balls of superdense...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 06:59:51 -0400
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------12AA7255E698C4419FBE4D28
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I've created a Visio 4.0 template for some some common rooms and fixtures
> that would be on deckplans. It's almost 500k, so I won't send it to the
> list, but if anybody wants a copy let me know.
> 

Waiter!  I'll have whatever he's drinking! er! I mean... I'll take a
copy of those please! 


- -- 
PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
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email;internet: peterb@cyber-wizard.com
title:          Unix Hacker at Large
tel;work:       (908) 392-2722
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note:           Model Railroader=0A=
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- --------------12AA7255E698C4419FBE4D28--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 07:21:09 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #09: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Rules:   Update 8/6/97  -  07:00 EDT         

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5)

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
        

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com (8/5)
        $35.00 cgriffen@cisco.com 
        $34.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $30.00 teflonkid@voyager.net
        
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5)

Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5)

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net (8/5)

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5)
        $ 3.00 EugHarvey@aol.com 

TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5)
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        

TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $15.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/5)
        $15.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com (8/5)

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5)
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 6.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5)

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                       
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
                
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/5)
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5)

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $10.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/5)
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:02:27 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sparklers

- -> What the hell are 'sparklers'? Are they the same as that
- -> supertechnological race from Knightfall - the ones that preceded the
- -> Ancients? 
Yep! They are the same... for more info consult DGP's MTJ4, the 
section of things planned, but never realized!
 

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:30:12 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

- -> Draft Outline.
- -> * Introduction
- -> * Setting
- -> * Characters
Secretary General, opposition parties, national seperatist factions, 
the antagonists (Vilani)
- -> * Mechanics
What do you mean? Mechanics of technology or of the game? The latter 
would be superfluous!
- -> * The Solar System
Also add desciptions of the nearby stars (maybe at jump 5-6 radius), 
where the Vilani are and which worlds are still free for the Terrans!
- -> * Vehicles and Equipment
- -> * Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
- -> * The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
- -> drive and the Vilani.
I'd set it at just around the discovery of jump space to 20-30 years 
later (letting the DM decide).
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:56:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>>
>>>	OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>>>There's lots there for a Trav game...
>>
>>Picked it up (Marathon 2) for about $15 at the local fire sale store
>>(Building 19).
>>
>>Didn't see the little "Win 95 required" on it.
>>
>>Pretty box though.
>
>
>	Yeah... the production values on the game etc are generally pretty high.
[snip]
>	If you need any help through sticky spots let me know; I'm
>currently playing my way through M2 for about the 4th time or so.

I don't think you understand.  I don't have windows 95, so the box is going
to sit on a shelf until I upgrade (probably when I get my next computer).
Of course, the place I got it for such a good price doesn't take returns
(even in the shrink wrap).  The joke's on me.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:47:44 +0200
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Shipplans and stuff.

	Just got acquainted with some pretty nifty Cad-like engines while doings
some shipplans. I was wondering if anyone has some cad files with
furnitures, consoles and stuff to incorporate into my own. Heard some guy
talking about making an internet-ship plan standard using a standard set of
objects in cad plans.

	Anyone who knows what the heck i'm talking about? 

	I think these files would work: .WMF, .DXF, .DWG .

Keep on pouring your stuff onto this excellent list.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1651
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1652



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FF&S Here -- My opinion on Jump Drives
Re: Second Careers
new items and math question
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: T4 Hydrographic Roll
Re: Can you help & FFS arrived in UK
Insatbility (and instability too!)
Chameleon Suits
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re: Sparklers
August THUDD
Re: Mileu:E21
Laser Whomp
Re: Mileu:E21

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:22:37 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S Here -- My opinion on Jump Drives

>Moin David Murray,
>
>> Jump Drive and Jump Fuel volume at higher TL is MY big problem.
>
>	mine also, I prefer TNE jump drives, where fuel was
>	5*jdrivedisplacement for a full jump, and not
>	10%shipdisplacement per parsec.

I think David's point is about the drive itself, more than the fuel.

The Classic Traveller model that requires immense amounts of fuel relative
to ship tonnage has an immense effect on the style and design of starships
in the Traveller unvierse.  Changing the quantity of fuel required
significantly would invalidate all the MT and CT ship designs (Well, the MT
designs are a bit different anyway) for use as T4 ships.  Right now, the
ships from those rules are pretty much usable (especially the important
large scale deck plans from seeker, DGP, FASA and others).

I despised TNE, not because of Virus, but because of Heplar drives, jump
drive changes, and the huge alterations in ship design.  There was also the
cultural change that made things like a Kinunir practically impossible to
encounter at all.

T4 is Classic Traveller, modified.  I advocate playing by the spirit of CT,
which requires the handicapping of Jump capable ships in this way over
non-jump capable ships.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:32:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Second Careers

In a message dated 97-08-05 20:52:38 EDT, you write:

<< Marc, I hate to say it, but this rule isn't any better than the
 only-one-career rule.  I won't play with it.  Its even a bit worse,
 IMHO.  I think the rule in T4.0 of DM -2 to enlistment per subsequent
 career is fine.  It makes it difficult enough to have several careers
 but gives the possibility of having a neat character (gratuitous example
 deleted ;-)
 
 Also, the DM on all rolls is extreme.  I will never play with these
 rules as you've written them.  Sorry   :-( >>

You should go back and read T4. This is essentially the text from T4 on
second career.

My basic position on second careers is that they shouldn't be allowed for
humans. Your second career is adventuring. After I did that post, and I got a
wave of responses saying second careers are in T4 and we need to keep that, I
looked it up. The text above is the result.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:04:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: new items and math question

   Hi.

> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 18:05 BST-1
> From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)

> Robert,

>>> Recieved FF&S and Gateway yesterday. 
>>> Anyone know what the doubleheaded arrow in the math formulas mean?
>>> ex.  Thrust = Accel <-> Volume <-> 10kN
>>  
>>    In this example, they mean multiplication.

> There are an *awful* lot of these. Didn't *anybody* check this before 
> it went to the printers?

   I did not work on this project, so I don't know.  (How could I answer
   your question then?  Basically, I'm an old fogie who's seen this
   equation and others like it many times before.)   But the problem
   smells like software incompatability --- the writers used one type of
   software, the printers another.  Often (always) non-standard characters
   like times signs and so on change their meaning from one program to
   another.  The printers should have known better (assuming this is the
   cause of the problem) and insisted (and checked) that the writers
   use appropriate software.

   (Occasionally, the writer is at fault for these problems; he tries to
   do an end-run around the software requirements by using his own
   favorite word processor and then doing some alleged `conversion' to
   the required format while not checking his output.  Printers are
   usually pretty good at spotting this idiocy, but sometimes a writer
   is sufficiently clever enough to get himself into real trouble doing
   this.)

   It just goes to show that software is NO substitute for a
   professional editor who is in contact with both the writer and the
   typesetter.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:38:31 +0100
From: John_Wood@cbtsys.com
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Draft Outline.
* Introduction

* Setting
With the setting zoomed down to this scale, it's easier to encourage play
in a single star system. I think the sheer size of a star system should
be emphasized in this setting and more detail on each system should be
included to encourage interplanetary Traveller play.

* Characters
Characters are unlikely to own their own ships in this setting - the
stellar economy and trade opportunities will be so much smaller than in
the interstellar economy of the TI. It will be important for players to
belong to organizations to get out into space - Weyland Utani type
corporate employees etc will be the norm. Space travel will probably
still be relatively expensive.

* Mechanics
Keep this a source book rather than a complete game - T4 game
mechanics are largely unnecessary apart from setting specific rules
changes which should mostly concern character creation.

* The Solar System
Some decent maps of Earth/Luna and a terraformed Mars, plus details of
orbital stations and facilities (is there an orbital elevator?) Also,
I agree that nearby stars should be included, but I'd extend that out to
a subsector's worth of systems. With only a moderate number of systems
being detailed, it would be feasible to provide system maps of each.
* Vehicles and Equipment

* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
Will the UN or whoever have a navy? If they haven't fought any wars in
space yet this seems unlikely; or at least the Navy will be small and
inexperienced. There will probably be a science and mapping organization
- - but not a scout service as we know it. There will probably be some
equivalent of Larry Niven's ARM (the united nation's police force);
corporations/commercial concerns are important too.

* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of
jump drive and the Vilani.
Give the background in the form of a history that the referee can jump into
at any point of choice. I'd begin about 20 years before the discovery of
jump space to allow adventure in the Sol system alone, and take it up to
the beginning of the war against the Vilani (when was this???)

* Sample scenario???? Very important.

This setting is a great opportunity to create a game that is traveller -
yet has a significantly
different more gritty, 2300AD type feel to it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:54:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Hydrographic Roll

In a message dated 97-08-06 04:05:52 EDT, you write:

<< I just started on a computerized Traveller sector generator when I came
 upon the roll for Hydrographic in the T4 rule book (page 130):
 
 Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere)
  >>

Hmmm. My T4 says 2D-7+Size (page 135).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:53:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Can you help & FFS arrived in UK

In a message dated 97-08-06 04:32:36 EDT, you write:

<<  Were there only 2 issues of FASA's Far Traveller Magazine?
  Were there only 5 issues of FASA's High Passage Magazine?
  Did FASA ever publish the promised double adventure A8 - Piracy/Stardust 
 or A9 Target:Assassin (see the inside back cover of Rescue on Galatea)? 
 Both were meant to come out summer 82.  >>

Working from memory, High Passage had only 5 issues; Far Traveller had 2. I
never saw Fasa's A8 and A9.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:11:35 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Insatbility (and instability too!)

Thus spaketh Haroldthustra
>Like our society, certain technologies had surged ahead of others,
>creating social instability. If the Terrans had slowed down their tech
>surge, they might have been able to come up with a solution to ruling the
>vast former Vilani Empire.

   Using this logic, the most technologically advanced societies today
should be the most unstable.  We're talking about the U.S., Japan, and
select countries in Western Europe (i.e. Switzerland).  Ooops!  All
those countries are by far the most *stable*.

Are they? Democracy provides a release valve. A sort of controlled anarchy.
And look how hard it was for the USA to maintain a common face amongst its
allies during the rough days of the cold war when we actually were afraid of
the USSR. Perhaps I should have phrased it more like saying that once you
get repeated successes on a certain path, it tends to be positive
reinforcement on that behaviour. This provides a distinction from merely
unstable to excessively dynamic. 

Again....
   Not to tell you how to run your country (that's not my job), but IMHO
before Quebec or the other provinces would be allowed to secede, they would
have to do so with the sword, not the pen.  "Anything worth having is worth
fighting for", so said somebody before my time.

But Canada's multicultural policy (good idea, lousy excecution) guarantees
that it won't be worth saving by that time. Nobody has any loyalty to Canada
itself (or at least, not enough to matter)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 08:13:30 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Chameleon Suits

> From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
 
> What would be the game effects of the TL12 Chameleon Combat Environment
> Suit, as outlined in CT Book 4: Mercenary? Has the CES been converted to

> All in all, the CES was one of the best value-for-money outfits in the
> Traveller arsenal. Where has it gone? 

Maybe it hasn't been invented or perfected yet in Milieu: Zero?  At
TL12, it could have been invented, but there's room to fudge.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:29:28 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Harold Hale wrote:

[snippage]
>
>>Canadians tend to see solutions in terms of new laws, as we were born by
>>an act of legislation. When we die, it will be because we legislated
>>ourselves out of existence.
>
>   Not to tell you how to run your country (that's not my job), but IMHO
>before Quebec or the other provinces would be allowed to secede, they
>would have to do so with the sword, not the pen.  "Anything worth having
>is worth fighting for", so said somebody before my time.


	I think you're encountering a fundamental difference between the
U.S. and the Canadian conception of their respective statehoods.  Canada is
a loose confederation (in fact the loosest on Earth in terms of federal
power) of a few large former British colonies.  Our federal structure was
designed to allow provinces a great deal of autonomy; it's not too far off
the mark to see it more as an association of provinces rather than one big
country.  Our country was built because it made administrative sense, not
to champion the democratic ideal (which, nevertheless, we've adopted
because it's right and it works).  The provinces came together because it
was mutually advantageous; it makes a certain amount of sense to allow them
to leave, on fair terms that are acceptable to all Canadians, if the deal
sours.

	This assumption seems to be built right in to our constitutional
amendment process.  It is possible to amend a province out of
Confederation; this would require assent from what in practical terms would
a large supermajority of Canadians and the provincial legislatures.

	The problem with the separatist movement is that it claims to be
able to unilaterally declare independence on the basis of a 51% or higher
referendum vote, unfairly short-circuiting the constitutional amendment
process.  This claim is false (I'll spare you the constitutional details
:>) and undemocratic since 51% of Quebec's electorate is under 10% of the
country's population.  While the racist and ethnocentric nature of the
separatist movement is why I'm against it, the fact that the current PQ
government seems willing to flout the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (our
equivalent of your Bill of Rights) and the rule of law doesn't make me
think any more highly of them.

	However, should the PQ government eventually manage to negotiate
their way out of Confederation in a manner that respects the rule of law
and Canada's national interests, I will willingly accept that result; it'd
be a very Canadian solution, arrived at in a democratic manner.

	So basically, and here comes the ObTrav, you shouldn't assume that
all countries or political units in Trav are put together and hang together
like the US; I'm sure that out there in the Imperium there are loose
confederations of smaller political units that hold together because it
make political and economic sense.  Travellers might very well encounter
citizens who put their local political entity's interests above the larger
collectivity's, and who aren't firecely and ideologically patriotic;
they're merely patriotic because it makes sense...  Basically, politics in
Traveller should hopefully transcend the dreaded "Yanks in Space" syndrome
:).


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:56:04 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Sparklers

Michael Barry wrote:

>What the hell are 'sparklers'? Are they the same as that
>supertechnological race from Knightfall - the ones that preceded the
>Ancients?

One and the same. A.k.a., "the primordials." I ran Knightfall some years
back, so I know what you're talking about.

The Sparklers were detailed more in the lettercol section of MegaTraveller
Journal #4, the last Traveller publication put out by DGP in 1991 or
thereabouts. It was DGP's intention that the threat coming out of the
galactic core that was causing the Zhodani so many problems was to be the
Sparklers. The Sparklers were a race of psionic nautiloids who were
inadvertantly throwing the Zhodani Consulate into chaos by somehow
undermining the psionic basis of their government.

IIRC, the Sparklers were also referred to in the World Builder's Handbook.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:13:16 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: August THUDD

>
You might wan tto think carefully about what to do about
sensors. FFS2 sensors are very different from existing ones...I've posted
conversion rules to rate old sensors on the new scale, but this is somewhat
unfair, as the old ones don't precisely match (they're generally a lot
cheaper.) You might want to run this THUDD with only the old sensors.

On the hand...I think the new sensor rules are fairly cool, and especially
neat for things like an SDB where stealth and sensitivity are
important. I'm hoping to write some QSDS-style sensor packages with the 
FFS2 sensors (if there's interest....) possibly this weekend. If I do
that, you could require everyone to use new sensors. But my main point is
that you should require one or the other.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:22:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

- -> * Mechanics
- -> Keep this a source book rather than a complete game - T4 game
- -> mechanics are largely unnecessary apart from setting specific rules
- -> changes which should mostly concern character creation.
Seconded!
- -> 
- -> * The Solar System
- -> Some decent maps of Earth/Luna and a terraformed Mars, plus details of
                                        ^ ^^^^^^^^^^ -Not yet, Mars 
will be terraformed later on, during the RoM and later!

- -> orbital stations and facilities (is there an orbital elevator?) Also,
- -> I agree that nearby stars should be included, but I'd extend that out to
- -> a subsector's worth of systems. With only a moderate number of systems
- -> being detailed, it would be feasible to provide system maps of each.
I do agree that complete maps are a necessity!

- -> * Sample scenario???? Very important.
A sample scenario should be included, as well as rumours, timed by 
date!
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:30:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Laser Whomp

>(c) a series of 15 to 20 G point sources. All at the mounting end. It makes
>sense based upon FF&S 1's description.
You'd have to show me the numbers to persuade me that this would 
possibly work. Grav focussing has to bend the laser path by several
arcseconds - to do that with a (quasi-static) field close to the 
ship would require fields in the thousands of Gs; gravity just doesn't
bend light by that much unless it has a long time to act over. (The
sun bends light by about an arcsecond, but the force has a long path
length - order of the radius of the sun - to act along. To get the same
bending with a path length of meters would requires thousands or
millions of Gs.) (And that ignores the fact that the beam would
diffract again as it leaves the grav focussing radius. To get the ranges
Traveller lasers have, the (glass) focal array would actually have to
launch a diverging beam, which would get caught by the grav focus at
a beam diameter big enough to give you the range you want and bent
back into a focussed beam. That would require black-hold level
gravity.


>no zapotron rays. Any grav-pulse CAN BE a weapon of
>it's own. I recieved 5-6 "hate mails" off-list when I pointed it out during
> previous discussion.
I hope this doesn't count as hate mail...The travelling pulse has to
have field strengths around a G and a duration (as measured by
someone "hit" by the pulse) of only a millisecond or so (the duration
of the laser pulse) and a diameter of a few meters.
That's not a weapon; even suggesting that it
goes "whomp" was a considerable exaggeration on my part. Even a ship
small enough to be fully inside the pulse would be accelerated at a 
G for a millisecond - you'd never even notice.

On the other hand, if you can make point source fields of tens (your
interpretation) or thousands-millions (what the math demands) of
G's, that sounds like a nasty weapon to me - maybe not at ship combat
ranges, but certainly for point defence or ground combat. 

>I cannot see a "travelling pulse" at all... as all known gravity effects
>that have been measurable have been uniform field effects.

Have you ever heard of gravity waves?

Admittedly, they haven't been detected yet, but the GR equations 
allow for travelling waves in a relatively straightforward way. There
is indirect evidence for gravitational radiation in binary pulsar
orbit changes, and NSF is building a 100-million-dollar gravity
wave detector.

That's not to say that there is a GR solution that does precisely
what I want - a travelling wave with negative curvature perpendicular
to the direction of travel - but it's at least vaguely plausible. 

>T4 is less hard sci-fi than any previous incarnation pf trav.

Speaking as an Actual Scientist who's worked on some aspects of T4
(like inventing the "grav pulse" concept, and the sensor rules) I
take exception to this.
It's not quite as hard-sci as TNE (cold fusion - yuck!) but it's
reasonably close. The new sensor rules I just posted, for example,
are about as hard-sci as anything you're ever likely to see - I spent
days on signal-to-noise calculations and simulations to generate them.

Dr. Bruce Macintosh
bmac@eggneb.astro.ucla.edu (frivolous)
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov (real life)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:31:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

- --Boundary (ID q4yIRZ3NuERRiTPUvDkJIg)
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN


>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
>From: CardSharks@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

>In a message dated 97-08-05 15:31:06 EDT, you write:

><<
> This setting has definite possibilities.
   

>>>

>I agree.

>Marc


:) :) <Comical Worship Mode ON> (: (:
Belhold!
He hath spoken!  And doth produce an outline for a New Milleu!
:) :)</Comical Worship mode OFF>(: (:

Yes, this could be a very interesing setting, First Contact to   
Interstellar Wars, maybe up to the RoM.  or would the Wars and RoM   
settings be split into 2 books? Hmm..

>Draft Outline.
>* Introduction
>* Setting

Howard Hale has set up an impresive timeline for such a setting: I   
reproduce it here:
<BEGIN INSIDE QUOTE>
> As a matter of fact...

>Here's the canonical timeline (with corrections), courtesy of
>Mr. McKinney's site:

>- -2560 (AD1957) First Solomani space explorations. GDW, MT Imperial
               Encyclopedia, p. 6.
>- -2548 (AD1969) First Solomani landings on Luna, Terra's moon (1827
               Solomani Rim). TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>- -2510 (AD2007) Archimedes settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827
               Solomani Rim) established as a small mining base.
               TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>- -2508 (AD2009) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA)
               established on Terra (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, Alien
               Module 6 - Solomani, p. 12.
>- -2501 (AD2016) Copernicus settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827
               Solomani Rim), established by America, Britain and
               Japan. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>- -2467 (AD2050) ESA Long-Range Colony Mission leaves Terra (1827
               Solomani Rim) in generation ships. GDW, Adventure 5
               - Trillion Credit Squadron, p. 40.
>- -2460 (AD2057) Solomani bases throughout the Terran solar system
               (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, MT Imperial Encyclopedia,
               p. 6.
>- -2438 (AD2079) GSbAG allegedly founded from consortium of old
               Terran manufacturing firms on Terra (1827 Solomani
               Rim). GDW, Supplement 8 - Library Data (A-M), p. 41.
>- -2433 (AD2084) Luna, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani Rim), unifies as
               a nation in the United Nations. TSR, Dragon #87 (July
               1984), p. 75.
>- -2431 (AD2086) Solomani develop jump-1 drives on Terra (1827 Solomani
               Rim). GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 18.

>   My speculative additions/subtractions/changes:

>- -2503 (AD2014) First manned expedition to Mars.  An international
               effort, it will be a primary factor leading to...
>- -2502 (AD2015) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA)
               established on Terra.
>- -2498 (AD2019) First permanent colony on Luna.  For apparent reasons
               (all dealing with budgetary considerations), the 2007
               date isn't going to happen.

>- -2467 (AD2050) The ESA LRCM should leave somewhat later, thus
               allowing technology a chance to advance a bit further.
               I would place it more toward AD2070-75.

>Unlikely       Bases throughout the Solar System.  While it is
>               probable that the Terrans would have throughly
>               *explored* the Solar System by 2057 (with a combination
>               of manned and unmanned vessels), there would not be
>               any particular incentive to establish bases everywhere.
>               Why?  In 2057 (a mere 60 years from now), the
>               technology wouldn't exist to exploit places like the
>               moons of Neptune and Uranus.  Even if it did, such
>               operations would be cost prohibitive given the
>               distances involved.  After the invention of jump
>               drive, and contact with the Vilani, bases would
>               almost certainly be established however.

>Other notes:   We can safely hypothesize that a scientific revolution
>takes places in the mid-21st century that yields spacecraft-sized fusion
>power plants, gravitics, and most importantly, enviromental controls
>that can protect astronauts and colonists from the problems associated
>with staying in space for long periods of time (cosmic rays anyone?).
>There would of course be other developments in the realm of computers,
>etc.

>   The political situation c. AD2050 would be anybody's guess.  Is the
>U.S. still a superpower (we do know from the Traveller history it is
>still a major player in AD2086)?  What becomes of China?  Has Japan
>finally went into serious decline economically (one scenario I can
>foresee is a tide of Chinese immigration sweeping over Japan in the
>AD2040s that revives the country but changes its basic character)?
>Europe could go off toward the sunset or arise as a phoenix as a new
>"European Nationalism" develops.  Perhaps there was a Third World War in
>the early 21st century, which while it caused a great deal of damage,
>did not cause a decline in technology (merely a bit of stagnation) and
>political realignment which set the stage for the New Renaissance.
</END>

>* Characters

Hmmm...Not realy any Space navy at this time, most space careers would be   
more like the Scouts in the 3I.  I see distinct posibilty of the revival   
of the Prospector or Belter Career.  Mining(Luna, Mars, the Asteroids)   
would be big business in the mid 21st. All those lovely natural resources   
Terra needs.   There will always be Rogues and the Military.  And   
Academia(Scholars) as well.

>* Mechanics

Hopefully nothing would change the rules mechanics much :)

>* The Solar System

Luna had colonies place on it since the Early 21st, and it was considered   
it's own country by the UN in the later 21st (2084). So that world is a   
major player.  Wonder what Luna culture would be like, a mix of Terran   
cultures I would think.  Mars is a major colony and mining world.  It is   
from here that most belters head off to the "rocks" and stake claims.   I   
would think a lanthanum or some other valuable metal rush would encourage   
more belt miners.  Belter rush of 2089?

"On a rock, in a belt, excavating for a mine,
Lived a miner '89er and his probe called  'Celmentine' "

Proxima Centari System has been discovered but not explored

>* Vehicles and Equipment

TL-9 with some Higher Techs(shakey) for various items, such as computers   
at TL-11?

>* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)

Belter Companies ('Red Dwarf' Mining Ships?), Scouts as well. And Rogues,   
Schollars, and Military Guys (oh my!)

Claim jumping pirate types could hassel the belters :)

A company could hire the PC's to stake a claim on a world in the Proxima   
System

>* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of   
jump
>drive and the Vilani.

It's these same companies(Sternmetal? GSBaG?) that pressure UNSCA into   
devloping more Jump ships and explorations to other systems for mining   
that leads to First Contact, and Interstellar Wars.  IIRC it was   
originaly a dispute over Mining rights on Barnard right?  The Terrans got   
impatient and fired the first shot IIRC.

_______________
Commander X  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1652
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1653



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Mileu:E21
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: AI ships and Darrians
Re: Second Careers
Re: Hull Shapes (in general)
Re: Perseid meteor shower peaks this Mon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:07:43 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

>Draft Outline.
>* Introduction
>* Setting
>* Characters
>* Mechanics
>* The Solar System
>* Vehicles and Equipment
>* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
>drive and the Vilani.
>
>What else?

	Perhaps a section on the then current research on Jump drive
technology (as a separate category from the "grand story" you mentioned),
since that's what will begin to drastically alter the campaign situation.
Some historical background that expands on the pre-existing Traveller canon
regarding this time-period would also seem to be neccesary.
	Alternatively, this kind of product could be presented as a "Terran
supplement" which instead of presenting a very specific campaign presented
a locale (the Terran system) and its campaign possibilities during various
periods (21st century, a few years after contact with the Vilani, the
height of the Rule of Man, during or near the end of the Long Night.) While
it may be interesting to set a campaign so early in  the established
timeline, it would also be more "Traveller-like" to look at other later
periods when the solar system was also more isolated than in the stardard
campaign (i.e. M1100). Without any FTL travel to other stars, even on a
very small scale, the games scope becomes a very different one.
	This is OK, but it should be noted nonetheless.


>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:39:45 GMT
>From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
>Subject: Re: Hull Shapes (in general)
>
>On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:29:29 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>On this general topic, I have several questions:
>>
>>What is a closed structure hull?
>
>A closed structure is one that doesn't easily fit one of the other
>descriptions, yet has a compact design. It doesn't look like a box,
>sphere or wedge/needle. Offhand I can't think of an example of such a
>ship.
>
>>What is an open structure hull?
>
>An open structure has a lot of "space" between the parts. The best
>example would be the Constellation class starships in Star Trek. The
>hulls are seperate from each other with connecting structures in
>between. This hull IMO would be best for a carrier that you don't want
>to land in an atmosphere, as all that surface area allows the small
>craft to launch at once.
>
>John Lansford
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:10:30 -0400
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians
>
>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>>
>>>	OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>>>There's lots there for a Trav game...
>>
>>Picked it up (Marathon 2) for about $15 at the local fire sale store
>>(Building 19).
>>
>>Didn't see the little "Win 95 required" on it.
>>
>>Pretty box though.
>
>
>	Yeah... the production values on the game etc are generally pretty
>high.  When you read the manual, scope out the blurb on the flamethrower;
>it had Ross, myself, and another of our players laughing like hyaenas in
>the subway.  Think we scared some passengers :).
>
>	If you need any help through sticky spots let me know; I'm
>currently playing my way through M2 for about the 4th time or so.
>
>	And you should dig the textures on the alien ships.  The guy who
>came up with them had a pretty good if rather warped take on what H.P.
>Lovecraft was driving at; Lounge Cthulhu :).
>
>	Have fun.
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:11:52 -0400
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Violent politicians...
>
>Eris wrote:
>
>>
>>Later, a political opponent attacked him on the steps of the capitol
>>building and Jackson beat the stuffings out of him with his walking stick.
>>Yeah, Jackson was one tough old bird! ;->
>
>
>	A few years back, Pierre Trudeau, who was PM for most of the 70's
>and early 80's and IMHO one of the best PM's we've ever had (prepare for
>explosions from K.C. and Pierre-Louis on this one ;>) was walking out of a
>restaurant when he was accosted by a comedian, whose schtick was to pose as
>an annoying interviewer, accost celebrities, subject them them to a
>fast-paced barrage of obnoxious questions, and show tape thereof on his
>show (which was actually kinda funny; I used to watch it when it was on).
>
>	At the time well into his 70's, Trudeau spun, kicked him in the
>crotch in front of dozens of witnesses _and_ a couple of TV cameras, and
>continued on his way unperturbed.  It was a good kick, too.
>
>	Gotta love the guy for that :).
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:12:19 -0400
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Re: Laser Whomp
>
>William F. Hostman wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>And also insures that I will not buy FF&S2. At least not new. T4 keeps
>>changing the mechanics of the UNIVERSE... (t'were me big complaint bout
>>TNE's lack of T-Plates).
>>
>>>And, finally, it allows you to have cool sound effects during
>>>battles (or even have the pulse rock the whole ship if it's a big laser and
>>>a small ship), which is a nice effect. (The latter requires exaggeration
>>>of the
>>>needed fields but might be worth it for drama.)
>>
>>I cannot see a "travelling pulse" at all... as all known gravity effects
>>that have been measurable have been uniform field effects.
>>
>>As for Whomping the ship, any laser HIT WILL create a whomp, as the
>>affected point of impact is vaporized, and creates a thrust.
>
>
>	Actaully, this whole grav focussed lasers question has always made
>me wonder why gravitational weapons, either suddenly creating lenslike
>point sources in the target's galley, er, bridge, or hitting it with
>travelling pulses, haven't been developed for higher TL's in Traveller.
>
>	I mean, let's face it; their destructive potential is _enormous_
><evil mad scientist laughter> and they'd just be a logical extension of
>either the grav point source lens or travelling annular pulse technologies.
>I can just see an Ancient-level weapon that just collapsed targets into
>little balls of superdense...
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 06:59:51 -0400
>From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
>Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>- --------------12AA7255E698C4419FBE4D28
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> I've created a Visio 4.0 template for some some common rooms and fixtures
>> that would be on deckplans. It's almost 500k, so I won't send it to the
>> list, but if anybody wants a copy let me know.
>>
>
>Waiter!  I'll have whatever he's drinking! er! I mean... I'll take a
>copy of those please!
>
>
>- --
>PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0
>
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
>%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
>%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
>%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>- --------------12AA7255E698C4419FBE4D28
>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Peter  Berghold
>Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"
>
>begin:          vcard
>fn:             Peter  Berghold
>n:              Berghold;Peter
>org:            Who ME?  Organized?!?!?!?!
>adr:            ;;14 Rider Lane;Tinton Falls;NJ;08873;USA
>email;internet: peterb@cyber-wizard.com
>title:          Unix Hacker at Large
>tel;work:       (908) 392-2722
>tel;fax:        (908) 392-3875
>tel;home:       (908) 918-0622
>note:           Model Railroader=0A=
>Unix System Administrator=0A=
>Java Programmer=0A=
>C++ Programmer=0A=
>Perl Programmer
>x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
>x-mozilla-html: TRUE
>end:            vcard
>
>
>- --------------12AA7255E698C4419FBE4D28--
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 07:21:09 -0400
>From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
>Subject: Auction Update #09: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)
>
>Rules:   Update 8/6/97  -  07:00 EDT
>
>1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50
>increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.
>
>2. Buyout offers will be considered.
>
>3. Buyer pays shipping.
>
>4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will
>hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All
>checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.
>
>5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason.
>
>6. This auction will be updated every day.
>
>7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
>the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to
>the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.
>
>8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.
>
>9. The following conditions will be used:
>    (MN) Item is perfect.
>    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
>    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
>    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if
>         all counters are present.
>    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.
>
>Traveller Related Items
>DGP     101 Vehicles
>        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5)
>
>DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit
>        Buyout - $12.00 - gone
>
>DGP     Starship Operator's Manual
>        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
>        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
>
>
>GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched
>        does not have the tech manual or combat
>        chart)
>        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
>        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
>        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
>
>GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff
>        marks and is slightly pushed in)
>        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com (8/5)
>        $35.00 cgriffen@cisco.com
>        $34.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>        $30.00 teflonkid@voyager.net
>
>Judge's
>Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN
>        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com
>        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5)
>
>Judge's
>Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN
>        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5)
>
>Martian
>Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &
>        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
>        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr,
>        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large
>        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.
>        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft
>        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
>        total of 228 painted figures.)
>        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
>
>
>AD&D Related Items                                Co
>TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex
>        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net (8/5)
>
>TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex
>        $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5)
>        $ 3.00 EugHarvey@aol.com
>
>TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
>        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5)
>        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com
>        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
>        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
>        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
>
>
>TSR     Castle Greyhawk
>        $15.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/5)
>        $15.00 tarquin@ro.com
>        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
>        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
>        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com
>
>TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex
>        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com (8/5)
>
>TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
>        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5)
>        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com
>
>TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $ 6.00 astinus@juno.com
>        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com
>
>
>Space 1889 Related Items
>GDW     Canal Priests of Mars
>        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>
>GDW     Caravans of Mars
>        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>
>GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5)
>
>GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World
>        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>
>GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>
>GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted
>        figures)
>        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
>
>GDW     More Tales from the Ether
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Referee's Screen
>        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>
>GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a
>        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
>        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
>        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Soldier's Companion
>        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5)
>        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net
>
>GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)
>        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/5)
>        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Steppelords of Mars
>        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5)
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5)
>
>GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm
>        unpainted figures)
>        $10.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/5)
>        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:02:27 MET
>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
>Subject: Re: Sparklers
>
>- -> What the hell are 'sparklers'? Are they the same as that
>- -> supertechnological race from Knightfall - the ones that preceded the
>- -> Ancients?
>Yep! They are the same... for more info consult DGP's MTJ4, the
>section of things planned, but never realized!
>
>
>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.
>- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
>- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>
>- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:30:12 MET
>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21
>
>- -> Draft Outline.
>- -> * Introduction
>- -> * Setting
>- -> * Characters
>Secretary General, opposition parties, national seperatist factions,
>the antagonists (Vilani)
>- -> * Mechanics
>What do you mean? Mechanics of technology or of the game? The latter
>would be superfluous!
>- -> * The Solar System
>Also add desciptions of the nearby stars (maybe at jump 5-6 radius),
>where the Vilani are and which worlds are still free for the Terrans!
>- -> * Vehicles and Equipment
>- -> * Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>- -> * The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery
>of jump
>- -> drive and the Vilani.
>I'd set it at just around the discovery of jump space to 20-30 years
>later (letting the DM decide).
>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.
>- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
>- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>
>- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:56:32 -0400
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians
>
>>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>	OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>>>>There's lots there for a Trav game...
>>>
>>>Picked it up (Marathon 2) for about $15 at the local fire sale store
>>>(Building 19).
>>>
>>>Didn't see the little "Win 95 required" on it.
>>>
>>>Pretty box though.
>>
>>
>>	Yeah... the production values on the game etc are generally pretty
>>high.
>[snip]
>>	If you need any help through sticky spots let me know; I'm
>>currently playing my way through M2 for about the 4th time or so.
>
>I don't think you understand.  I don't have windows 95, so the box is going
>to sit on a shelf until I upgrade (probably when I get my next computer).
>Of course, the place I got it for such a good price doesn't take returns
>(even in the shrink wrap).  The joke's on me.
>
>Pete
>
>Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
>"Shiela-X where are you"
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:47:44 +0200
>From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
>Subject: Shipplans and stuff.
>
>	Just got acquainted with some pretty nifty Cad-like engines while
>doings
>some shipplans. I was wondering if anyone has some cad files with
>furnitures, consoles and stuff to incorporate into my own. Heard some guy
>talking about making an internet-ship plan standard using a standard set of
>objects in cad plans.
>
>	Anyone who knows what the heck i'm talking about?
>
>	I think these files would work: .WMF, .DXF, .DWG .
>
>Keep on pouring your stuff onto this excellent list.
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1651
>***********************************
>
>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:
>
>unsubscribe traveller-digest
>
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>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com


Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 18:27 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In-Reply-To: <l03020901b0092965f917@[198.168.183.133]>

Roderick,

> OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
> There's lots there for a Trav game...

Mac only, isn't it?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 18:27 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: AI ships and Darrians

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970802192313.006b5844@athens.net>

Paul,

> A couple of years ago, a good friend and I played too many rounds of
> Drunk Jutland (take a drink every time you score a hit, everyone kills
> their drink every time an English ship explodes<g>), and created a list
> of names we used for the fleet of what would now be considered a 
> pocket empire that our campaign had harassing the borders of the 3I.
> Every once in a while one stills turns up in the campaign I have now.
> I'm sure others who've studied the *cough* quaint naming of British
> ships have made similar lists:

In a Star Trek game I was in years ago, (during which the Science Officer 
accidentally phasered the Navigator to death, and the Chief Engineer 
mutinied), our ship was the USS Expendable.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:36:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Steve Daniels wrote:

> > Marc
> 
>  The larger issue concerning careers is the relatively few
> opportunities.  Basically it Military (Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts),
> Dilettante (Noble, Entertainer), 'Business' (Merchant, Rogue) and
> Scholar. 

Hear Hear!! Just transplant the careers section from TNE (it even has
second careers for rogues...prisoners! ;-)

I'd even put up with the crappy typography...just stick the thing in the
book!


Bloo is right...the restricted number of character options tend to produce
more one dimensional characters. While an experienced gamer can take an
Agent and make a journalist or a cop or a PI or a bounty hunter or a spy
from that generation sequence, having those careers explicitly laid out,
encourages even experienced gamers to rethink what kind of character
they're creating.

Otherwise you _do_ tend to end up with three fighters, two clerics, a
magic user and a half-elf fighter-magic user as characters.

Again...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:48:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hull Shapes (in general)

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Steve Daniels wrote:

> On this general topic, I have several questions:
> 
> What is a closed structure hull?
> What is an open structure hull?
> How are they different?
> Are there some ratios of length x width x height somewhere?
> When does a box become a slab?
> When does a cylinder become a box?

Well, you're not quite the ONLY one to have some probblems with the
Starships book...

Here's a shot at some answers:

Closed vs Open structure.

Closed structure is an unstreamlined hull with all the components enclosd
in some sort of hull. It may be a thin skin of metal, but it's enclosed,
and in theory, maintains a shirtsleeves environment for all components of
the ship.

Open structures are frames with things hung wherever they're convenient,
and no pretense of a hull. Some parts may not be accessible in a
shirtsleeve environment.

Neither tends to be any regular shape, and neither can enter an
atmosphere.

A box becomes a slab when IMO, it looks 'slabbish'; when the length and
width are considerably greater than the height; it's really a gradation.

A cylinder is that, a cylinder, it may be oval in cross section, but
nowhere does the curve of the hull 'straighten out'. A box may be curvy,
but there are portions of the hull that are perpendicular to each other.

There are LxWxH ratios in FFS2, and (without looking, because I dont have
it here) I think in QSDS.

Too bad, I'm sorry you wasted money on Starships, because it is truly one
of the crappiest game supplements ever produced.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:56:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Perseid meteor shower peaks this Mon.

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Just thought I'd inject a real-life astronomical note here; the
> Perseid meteor shower peaks Monday August 11th-Tuesday August 12th this
> year. (SNIP)  For neophyte amateur astronomers meteor observations are
> one of the easiest astronomical projects; all you need is paper, lawn
> chair, and warm clothes.  Telescopes, binoculars, and so forth are mostly
> useless.

Hmmm, you're showing your geographic bias here, Roderick! ;-)

Here the warm clothes are a bit too much (I think it got down to 80F 
last night)...but the show is just as good!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1653
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1654



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Laser Whomp
Apology
GenCon & New SF Games
Re: THUDDD 6 preliminaries
Re: Milieu E:21
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1649
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1649
DGP Open Letter
Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Re: Mileu:E21
Gravity-Focused Lasers
Re: new items and math question
Re: Second Careers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 17:59:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Laser Whomp

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:45:00 -0800, William F. Hostman wrote:

> >Put it this way: which do you find more plausible at moderate TL:
> >
> >(a) a point souce of thousands of G's
> >(b) a travelling pulse of 1 G
> 
> (c) a series of 15 to 20 G point sources. All at the mounting end. It makes
> sense based upon FF&S 1's description.

I believe it has already been discussed that a) and c) are impossible.
It takes a mass the size of our sun to bend light a *minute* fraction
of a degree.  To create a "gravity lens" capable of allowing lasers to
strike targets at the ranges associated with Traveller ship combat
would require the creation of MONSTROUSLY huge gee-forces which would
certainly damage-- and most likely destroy-- the firing ship.  A
thousand 1 Gee sources or ten 100 Gee sources... it wouldn't make a
difference-- you'd still have to deal with a pulse of 1,000 Gees
originating a few metres away from the firing vessel (something I
don't think inertial dampers would be able to handle).

> >I find (b) much more plausible. I think it actually made it into FFS2 as
> >canon (ha!).
> 
> Well, it shows, as I feared would happen, T4 is less hard sci-fi than any
> previous incarnation pf trav. It violates one of marc's rules for the
> traveller millieu... no zapotron rays. Any grav-pulse CAN BE a weapon of
> it's own. I recieved 5-6 "hate mails" off-list when I pointed it out during
> a previous discussion.

During a previous discussion it was determined that the gee-forces
necessary in a travelling "pulse" would be far less than those
required using a high-gee gravity lens.

A point source gravity lens would need to possess an immense mass (or
pseudo-mass) to improve the focus of light at such great distances.
The travelling grav pulse idea allows for a much lower grav source to
be used.  The gravity lens would need to apply its brute-force gravity
all at once, while the travelling pulse could apply a lesser force
over a longer period of time.

If you did allow the latter, you would also be creating another
powerful weapon... gravity bombs.  If you can create a gravitational
field to keep a laser focused enough to do damage at distances of
300,000 km, a ship docked at a starport could do severe damage to the
surrounding structures by simply firing its laser skyward.  The
resulting gravity field would cause an extremely brief but powerful
"implosion".  If you hand wave this away using some sort of shielding,
you now have to explain how one shields everything except the laser
beam from these immense gee-forces (no matter how short their
duration).

> And also insures that I will not buy FF&S2. At least not new. T4 keeps
> changing the mechanics of the UNIVERSE... (t'were me big complaint bout
> TNE's lack of T-Plates).

This is a poor example.  I find more realism in ultra efficient HEPlaR
drives than nonsensical "Thruster Plates".  HEPlaR is at least
possible using today's theories and technology.  Which one requires
the MOST hand-waving? :)

> >And, finally, it allows you to have cool sound effects during
> >battles (or even have the pulse rock the whole ship if it's a big laser and
> >a small ship), which is a nice effect. (The latter requires exaggeration of the
> >needed fields but might be worth it for drama.)
> 
> I cannot see a "travelling pulse" at all... as all known gravity effects
> that have been measurable have been uniform field effects.

They would still have uniform field effects.  The pulse is merely
moving instead of being stationary.  After all, every body in the
universe is moving :)

> As for Whomping the ship, any laser HIT WILL create a whomp, as the
> affected point of impact is vaporized, and creates a thrust.

More likely, the superheated region of the hull will cause such rapid
expansion that the hull plates will resound like a big kettle drum
(not to mention burst a few seams).  Callisto anyone? :)

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:11:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Apology

Greetings fellow listmembers:

When I responded to the M:E21 post in the last digest, I was using 
Microsloth Exchange, which slaped a nastly little WINMAIL.DAT to the end of 
an already lengthy post.  That's the last time I'd let some System 
Administrator at the office mess arround with my system, in which I know 
works! :)

I have reverted back to my original Mail Program which should not reporduce 
the anoying 'winmail' thing.

Again my appologies for flooding the list.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:18:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: GenCon & New SF Games

Well, I'm off to GenCon on Friday, and I hope to see some of you there. 
I'll be either wandering around or working the the Biohazard booth 
helping to sell Blue Planet.

On that note, I'll do my one but of self-promotion.  Blue Planet is a
great new SF game (well, I think it's great, I wrote 20% of it).  It's set
in 2199 and is a hard sf extrapolation of the future which involves humans
colonizing another star system.  It's 350 pages long with over 250 pages
of world background, gadgets and other stuff, and only around 90 pages of
(quite good) rules.  In it we have realistic cybertech, genetic
engineering, space colonization, and much other fun stuff. 

Also, it does have one thing in common with Traveller.  Blair Reynolds 
(who did much of the art in several DGP MT products, including Solomani
& Aslan did the interior art.

See "http://www.biohazardgames.com/" for more info


No more non-Traveller advertising, I promise...



- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:35:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 preliminaries

> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:03:40 -0500
> From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
> 
> >As previously mentioned, the August THUDDD will cover a TL-10 System
> >Defense Boat, 500-1000 tons, with price efficiency a primary criterion --
> >these are intended for a (relatively) poor pocket empire which can't
> >squander gigacredits quite so recklessly as certain up-and-coming Imperia
> >can. :)  A formal Request For Proposals (RFP), schedule, and rules update
> >will be released by tomorrow evening, August 6.
> 
> Does this mean that there will be a THUDDD voting catagory this month
> entitled "best bargain on the lot, er....ahem, I mean on the tarmack."
> :)  This lowest bidder thing may mean that some SDB are not exactly the
> best money can buy but the best that the Kaguk Fishfarmers Cooperative
> can afford to protect thier great Red Tarbot stocks. Hey, wait a minute,
> that's an idea... 

In all previous THUDDDs except for last month's Yacht competition, there
has been a voting category for "Most Efficient Design."  'Efficiency' is
of course measurable along many parameters; for THUDDD 6, it will be
largely performance/price (= bang/buck :)).  This does *not* necessarily
mean that the lowest bidder wins; rather, it simply indicates that the
buyer(s) are very price-sensitive.  By contrast, an Imperial Navy design
would tend toward maximizing performance/ton; they don't care (as much)
about ship cost, but rather about ship quality in absolute terms.

That's why I'm opening up the range of tonnage to a full factor of two,
from 500 to 1000 tons.  As cost is very roughly proportional to tonnage in
this regime, designers are welcome to trade off the lesser individual
capability but greater redundancy and operational flexibility of two 500
ton ships vs. one 1000 ton ship, or any point in between.

Speaking of which, I will probably require entries to list how many units
can be bought for ten gigacredits, so people can compare entries more
easily.

> I still think 400 tons is the ideal size for an SDB. :)

Depends on what you mean by SDB.  In a revenue cutter and anti-piracy
role, I tend to agree.  But as defense against naval destroyer-sized
targets, you need to get into the 500+ range to even make them notice
you're shooting at them. :)

> Will you be giving us an example ship to emulate or scorn? Or is this ship
> catagory too open ended for something like this?

Nope, no example this time; I only did that for the Yacht THUDDD so
non-gearheads could participate without dealing with the design system(s).

Some concern has been expressed regarding comparisons between
FFS2-designed ships vs. those using any of the older systems, as FFS2
sensor suites are cheaper (in both cost and volume/area) for the same
performance.  Does anyone have suggestions on how to handle this?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 13:49:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: Re: Milieu E:21

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:38:31 +0100, John Wood wrote:

* Characters
Characters are unlikely to own their own ships in this setting - the
stellar economy and trade opportunities will be so much smaller than in
the interstellar economy of the TI. It will be important for players to
belong to organizations to get out into space - Weyland Utani type
corporate employees etc will be the norm. Space travel will probably
still be relatively expensive.

        I agree heartily that interplanetary travel should be fairly
expensive, at least out past Mars.  For Luna to become a viable, thriving
nation, I think there would need to be economical travel from Earth-Luna,
though.  
        As far as characters having their own ships- you could make a case
for characters being belters, prospectors, traders, or military types, and
having ships on a corporate-subsidized basis, similar to the old subsidized
merchants from CT.  Getting ships as "gifts" a la the 100-ton Scout would be
unheard of, however.
        Some suggestions for character types: Explorers (scouts or
privately-funded independants), Belters, Freighters  (tramp merchants with
subsidized ships, or corporate crews like on the Nostromo), Law Enforcement
(corporate, UN, bounty hunters and private investigators), Colonizers
(people with the skills to establish colonies on inhospitable worlds- skills
could cover adaptive agriculture, exobiology, etc.), Military (see below),
Scientists.

* The Solar System
Some decent maps of Earth/Luna and a terraformed Mars, plus details of
orbital stations and facilities (is there an orbital elevator?) Also,
I agree that nearby stars should be included, but I'd extend that out to
a subsector's worth of systems. With only a moderate number of systems
being detailed, it would be feasible to provide system maps of each.

        I think you could get by quite nicely with just the solar system
detailed, along with orbital environments.  You could set an initial
campaign in the period leading up to the development of jump-1, and then
later expand to cover the near stars.  Can you imagine the cultural impact
of finally developing FTL?  Or the cutthroat tactics the corps would employ
to get a monopoly on such technology?  There's a whole campaign's worth of
adventures right there!

* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
Will the UN or whoever have a navy? If they haven't fought any wars in
space yet this seems unlikely; or at least the Navy will be small and
inexperienced. There will probably be a science and mapping organization
- - - but not a scout service as we know it. There will probably be some
equivalent of Larry Niven's ARM (the united nation's police force);
corporations/commercial concerns are important too.

        I think that it would be better for the game if a fair bit of the
solar system was still unexplored.  The more distant planets and their
moons, the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, etc.  This would leave lots of room
for adventuring, and justify the existence for a scout-type service, or
privately-funded expeditions to search for all manner of practical or
oddball things.  I can also see reasons for having a highly-trained Search
and Rescue force, similar to the Coast Guard, which would be a multinational
group funded by the UN.  There would also need to be law enforcement types.
What about penal institutions in space?  Convict mines in the Ceres Belt,
for example.  It would certainly cut down on escape attempts.
        As far as a Naval service goes... Well, who is to say that all of
Earth's nations will be getting merrily along in the 21st century?  Each
nation might choose to maintain their own military presence in space, in
order to protect their interests systemwide, and there might be threats to
the interplanetary community which require militay force, but stem from
internal pressures.  How did Luna become a nation, for instance?  Anybody
read Heinlein's "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?"  Perhaps there was a revolt
of sorts, and in its wake the UN decided to mandate some sort of federated
military force to be mobilized in the event of an emergency.  You could also
have situations of piracy and terrorism, as ideological or religious feuds
boil over into space.  Imagine a final flareup in the Middle East, wherein
the nation of Israel is overrun by an alliance of Islamic nations, and the
Hebrew people are forced into a mass migration- up into orbit.  It is
unlikely that the struggle would stop there.

* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of
jump drive and the Vilani.
Give the background in the form of a history that the referee can jump into
at any point of choice. I'd begin about 20 years before the discovery of
jump space to allow adventure in the Sol system alone, and take it up to
the beginning of the war against the Vilani (when was this???)

        I think that's a great idea.  If it were me, I would advocate
starting in the couple of years prior to the discovery of jump drives, and
work the players into the dramatic unfolding of events.

* Sample scenario???? Very important.

        Some suggestions:
        1.) "The Wreck of the Endeavour"- The characters are present on the
shakedown cruise of a new class of corporate spaceship.  It employs a number
of cutting-edge technological advances that promise to make it the leading
edge of a revolution in ship design.  Unfortunately, a group of competitor
corporations have plans to turn triumph into tragedy.  You could play this
as a "survive the spacewreck" adventure, or a complicated hijacking under
the cover of an accident, and the players are in a position to stop (or
cause) it.
        2.) "Deadly Seed"- The characters are the crew of a subsidized
freighter on the Ceres Run, carrying ores and minerals to Earth.  Strapped
for cash, they accept a lucrative side job carrying crates for a small
business- only to become embroiled in a well-funded terrorist plot to
smuggle fissionable materials onto Earth.
        3.) "Ship to Shore"- The characters, members of an SAR or
exploratory service, receive a weak distress signal from the Rim (the area
at Neptune's orbit and beyond).  They find a small outpost not listed on any
charts- an extreme oddity- and a scene of brutal piracy.  Everyone on board
is dead, and the computers destroyed, but there is enough evidence to
suggest that the place was used as a listening post of some kind, and th
eplayers manage to recover fragments of stored radio signals unlike anything
they have heard before.  But who were they listening to?  The mystery
deepens when the government immediately orders their ship to port after
making their report.  From here, the players are hounded and menaced at
every turn, caught up in a ruthless, shadowy struggle between the government
and a number of interplanetary coporations.  The prize is the final proof
that humanity is not alone- the station was established in secret to
catalogue the faint emanations of radio signals coming from Barnard's Star.
There is Someone Out There- the Vilani.  You could really have fun playing
this as a dark, gritty, X-files adventure.

This setting is a great opportunity to create a game that is traveller -
yet has a significantly
different more gritty, 2300AD type feel to it.

        I agree.  I love this idea, and I would have a blast helping out
with it.

Mike Lee
Freelance designer and compulsive GM

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:06:02 -0700
From: sfellows@netcom.com (Steven B. Fellows)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1649

I am STILL getting multiple copies of the digest in my mailbox.  Please
check gthis out.  I don't know who to send this to, so I am just going
send this to the list.  

By the way, I got over 60 messages in my box since lst night.

Steve Fellows
sfellows@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:06:02 -0700
From: sfellows@netcom.com (Steven B. Fellows)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1649

I am STILL getting multiple copies of the digest in my mailbox.  Please
check gthis out.  I don't know who to send this to, so I am just going
send this to the list.  

By the way, I got over 60 messages in my box since lst night.

Steve Fellows
sfellows@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:07:48 -0700
From: "Roger Sanger" <rodge@case.cyberspace.com>
Subject: DGP Open Letter

 
Dear TML'ers,
 
We ALL want to see DGP's Traveller archives made available to the
public once again.
 
Please keep in mind that DGP (or any other publisher) cannot
publicly distribute materials, under the Traveller trademark or
which portray the Traveller milieu, in any form or by any means
without first obtaining an official Traveller License to do so.
Note that creating a work and then "donating the copyrights" to
the public domain could be construed as a method of publishing,
and may still be subject to obtaining a license.
 
Besides, there are proper channels for publishing "official"
Traveller materials, and DGP is currently waiting in line for a
Traveller license. For DGP to step outside those channels would
be a display of disregard and disrespect to the managers of
Traveller, and to Marc Miller himself.
 
As far as we at DGP are concerned, with respect to the Traveller
universe, Marc Miller is GOD. We couldn't conceive of operating
outside the official pathways he and his associates have planned
for the creation or distribution of Traveller products.
 
 
 
BTW, we at DGP appreciate your anxiousness to see DGP's upcoming
(non-Traveller) release. Everyone seems to be eagerly waiting.
Thank you.
 
Though at times the creation of a brand new universe can be
overwhelming if not frustrating, we're having fun designing it,
and our "kibitzers" are having fun discussing and proofreading
it. That's what keeps us going. After all, FUN is what gaming is
all about.
 
We will continue to joyfully tinker away. We are creating what we
believe to be an innovative and entertaining milieu. DGP veterans
and newbies alike are involved with bringing this product to
fruition. I think you are going to like it. The excitement level
here at DGP is HIGH.
 
It's our biggest project to date, slated to be 320-pages in size,
over 3-times larger than anything DGP has ever produced before.
 
Wish us luck, for we definitely have our work cut out for us.
 
Sincerely,
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications
 
 
 
P.S.: With respect to the prospect of DGP obtaining a Traveller
License, if and when this happens, you'll be the first to know!
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 14:06:37 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

On 08/06/97 at 11:29 AM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott
<rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca> said:

>	I think you're encountering a fundamental difference between the U.S. and
>the Canadian conception of their respective statehoods.  Canada is a loose
>confederation (in fact the loosest on Earth in terms of federal power) of
>a few large former British colonies.  Our federal structure was designed
>to allow provinces a great deal of autonomy; it's not too far off the mark
>to see it more as an association of provinces rather than one big country. 
>Our country was built because it made administrative sense, not to
>champion the democratic ideal (which, nevertheless, we've adopted because
>it's right and it works).  The provinces came together because it was
>mutually advantageous; it makes a certain amount of sense to allow them to
>leave, on fair terms that are acceptable to all Canadians, if the deal
>sours.

Roderick, that's what a lot of my ancestors thought about our united States
too.  Their States attempted to peaceably secede and were forced to remain
part of the United states.  Nothing in our Constitution expressly forbid
secession..then..and opinion was pretty evenly divided on the subject, but
that didn't stop the bullets from flying.  Don't get me wrong, I think
union worked out better than disunion would have, but a lot of good people
died while our basic governmental structure was being changed from a
decentralized union of independent States to a strongly centralized Union
of states.

So, when push comes to shove, law rides on the point of a bayonet, "them
what has the guns makes the rules", and history is written by the winning
side..and those are *not* uniquely American ideas.  ;->

!!Hypothetical Strawman Warning!!

Speaking TOTALLY hypothetically, how would Ottawa react if Quebec succeeded
based solely on a 50.1% vote?  If it seized military assets and closes its
borders?  If it revoked treaties with your First Nations and seized their
territory.  If it nationalized formerly Canadian and international private
assets?  If it suppressed Anglophiles, striped them of rights, refused to
allow them to take their wealth out of Quebec?

Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
hypothetically would your Federal government just let it happen?  Or would
it *act*, saying it was in the best interests of Canada as a whole?  You
might be surprised by how *you* react..how your government reacts.

Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks in
Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p

Eris,
    the rebel ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 15:08:50 -0400
From: Peter Miller <pmiller@linkeasy.net>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Hello,

BTW, this is the setting for Traveller that I've been waiting for, an
Interstellar Wars Era.  Definitely looks good.

> * Setting

The setting should explore the grandeur of a solar system.  All too
often, in Traveller we go to a system, set down on the main world, and
then leave for the next main world.  This should explore the business of
intra-system activities, such as trade, politics, communications,
colonies, etc.

Detailed maps of Terra, Luna, Mars, the Asteroid Belt would be useful,
with deck plans on some standard ship designs, and of the first jump
ship, etc.

The setting should explore the political landscape of 21st century
Earth, trying to stay as realistic as possible (it's not _that_ far into
the future).  A detailed timeline (ala T:2300-style) would be very
useful, and also add a ton of canon material into this vital historical
period.

> * Characters

Characters would come from either Mars, Luna or Earth, and specific
classes could be national military types, police, scholars & scientists,
rouges, merchants (employees of trading firms), belters & prospectors. 
When it comes into existence, the UNSCA will more than likely be a
scouting and scientific organization, but it gives more careers, such as
UNSCA scout, and UNSCA scientist, etc.

Also, there could be diplomats, etc.  Players whose character is from
Earth should choose a nation or at least geographic region that they're
from (ie. Europe, NA, SA, Africa, Asia).

A major point to characters is what currency is being used.  Will there
still be different moneys around the world (ie. Dollars, 'Euros'?, etc.)
or will a UN-mandated coin have taken their place (unlikely, I think).

> * Mechanics

A more fully developed game mechanic for interplanetary travel could be
useful, but aside from that Is ee no changes being made to the game
rules.  

As to the mechanics of the time, in technology, it should be TL9, with
some TL10, and perhaps TL11 at various points (the higher ends, being
expensive and unreliable). 

> * The Solar System

A UPP rating for each world and major moons is needed (perhaps
downgraded from the information in S&A), along with explanations of how
far human or machine exploration has gone.

> * Vehicles and Equipment

Individuals will more than likely not own spaceships, as they will be
controlled by governments and large corporations.  A major space station
employing some kind of pseudo-gravitiy could be used as an adventure
jump off point, in orbit around Earth.  Also, information on the kind of
vehicles in use, along with laws about what weaponry can or cannot be
used at this time, etc.

Space weaponry will have been developed, although it may not be
necessary.  Explanation of different weaponry used in space should be
included.

> * Organizations (reasons for adventuring)

Major corporations, the UNSCA, organized crime, scientific foundations
(SETI?), and national governments all could be prospective patrons.  

> * The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery
> of jump drive and the Vilani.

I think that the possibility for adventure in Earth's solar system
should be given for before jump drive as well. Perhaps the source book
will cover 2050-2100 or so, which would nicely take on exploration of
the solar system, jump drive and the beginning of the Interstellar Wars
(why did they actually start?).

> What else?

A starter scenario has already been suggested, that's a great idea.  A
pullout poster map of Sol, and it's surrounding stars (indicating
Vilani-inhabited or not and including ALL stars, not just habitable
planets).

Useful artwork is always a benefit, as are well done charts etc.  Also,
one more thing would be a referee's section on any leftover Ancient
artefacts in the Sol system for characters to explore in adventure.  A
section detailing Bernard's Star and Proxmia Centauri is probably also a
good idea.  

Also, on a note unrelated to this, a name for the upcoming M200 campaign
came to me last night as I flipped through the Imperial Encylopedia. 
Perhaps something along the lines of "Milieu 200: Antebellum" would
work.  I thought it sounded kind of cool.

Thanks,
- -- 

________________________________________________ Peter J. Miller
TravWeb Central - http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

"Virtually anything mentioned in a story or article can be transferred
to the Traveller environment.  Orbital cities, nuclear war, alien
societies, puzzles, enigmas, absolutely anything can occur, with
imagination being the only limit."
                                - Marc W. Miller (CT Book 3)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
The best graphics and web design - http://www.irevolution.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 14:43:46 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Gravity-Focused Lasers

On 08/06/97 at 09:30 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>(c) a series of 15 to 20 G point sources. All at the mounting end. It makes
>>sense based upon FF&S 1's description.

FFS/1's decription wasn't very convincing to me.  I really don't think it
was convincing to the authors either, just the handwave they came up with.

>You'd have to show me the numbers to persuade me that this would  possibly
>work. Grav focussing has to bend the laser path by several arcseconds - to
>do that with a (quasi-static) field close to the  ship would require
>fields in the thousands of Gs; gravity just doesn't bend light by that
>much unless it has a long time to act over. 

That's why I wasn't all that enamored of the gravity lens idea.

>>no zapotron rays. Any grav-pulse CAN BE a weapon of it's own.

Sure, but it depends on how strong you can make the grav-pulse, how it
degrades over time, and what its range (if it has a range) is.

>The travelling pulse has to have field strengths around a G and a
>duration (as measured by someone "hit" by the pulse) of only a
>millisecond or so (the duration of the laser pulse) and a diameter of a
>few meters.

And it's the grand-daddy of tractor/repulsor beams, too.  ;-> Of course,
they won't become very effective for a few tech levels.

Whether or not any offical rules do it, I'm going to put specific tech
level ranges on gravity pulses.  My handwave is that the pulse is composed
of a matched pair of tuned gravity waves and can be kept in a tight focus
for only X(tl) seconds after which the pulse pair cancels itself out and
the laser defocuses.

>On the other hand, if you can make point source fields of tens (your
>interpretation) or thousands-millions (what the math demands) of G's, that
>sounds like a nasty weapon to me - maybe not at ship combat ranges, but
>certainly for point defence or ground combat. 

Well, how about a very short range pulse to *defocus* incoming laser or
particle beams?  Shields up, anyone?  ;->

>>T4 is less hard sci-fi than any previous incarnation pf trav.

>Speaking as an Actual Scientist who's worked on some aspects of T4 (like
>inventing the "grav pulse" concept, and the sensor rules) I take exception
>to this.

Ah well, MegaTraveller isn't on the spine of the book so it *can't* be any
good.  ;-p

>It's not quite as hard-sci as TNE (cold fusion - yuck!) but it's
>reasonably close. 

Hey!  I like cold fusion.  I might even find a place for it in my game one
of these days...now fusion+ *that's* another story. ;->

>The new sensor rules I just posted, for example, are about as hard-sci
>as anything you're ever likely to see - I spent days on signal-to-noise
>calculations and simulations to generate them.

Doc!  They're TOO hard-sci!  ;-> I've been wading through them for a week
now, and space opera (no caps!) is looking better and better. Well, maybe
not.  ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:35:07 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: new items and math question

Moin Eris Reddoch,

> However, I viewed the draft using Word 6.0 and Dave used the formula editor
> and saved it using Word 95. I had continuing trouble getting formulas to
> display correctly. I'd get all kinds of strange things instead of "pi" or
> "times" or "square root", depending on the size of the fonts or the shape
> of the formula area..and the phase of the moon. ;-< If I saved a file with
> those strange things showing that's how they got saved too.  

	perhaps you should switch to LaTeX (like any scientific people
	do) or LyX (a WYSInWYG for TeX). BTW: Springer, Routlege, OReily
	and many other publishers accept only TeX or SGML, and submit
	their style before contract. Perhaps IG should learn from them!

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:56:25 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Second Careers

Moin CardSharks@aol.com,

> Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.

	I dislike the one career only attempt. Of course there
	are careers you should serve for the first term on. e.G
	military, school, etc. only takes people who are young.
	Otherhands some careers are better for older people (marketing
	/sales, politic, etc) while other require that you have
	done a specific career before (medizine requires several
	schools, special operations requires a military career,
	while agents normaly continue their old career officially.

	I think thats more difficult to start a second (or even
	third) career, but the is IMHO no increased chance of
	injury, but an increased chance of becoming promoted,
	or getting a special job the first term of a new career.

	e.G. my grandfather was Navy (Price Eugene), Mechanic
	(we have a Electronic shop) and a politican later.
	3 careers and he server all well.

By Michael

PS : The Prince Eugene was the first ship with a analogous fire control.
     "Feuerleitzentrale"
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1654
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1655



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Star Trigger
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Second Careers
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1648
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Oh Canada!
More Code Duello
Re: Mileu:E21 or Mileu:-2508
Re: Dueling and Equality.
Re: T4 Hydrographic Roll
Re: Hull Shapes (in general)
Re: Second Careers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:18:29 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

Moin Scott Ellsworth,

> Be aware: in my universe, the Darrian confederation of 1200 is back to full
> size, and is up to TL17 on three planets.  They are holding there until
> they have all of the planets of the confederacy up to at least TL16, which
> they expect to take about 100 years.

	sounds interesting.

> Note: the Regency would be most horrified If It Only Knew - the real reason
> the Darrians were not affected overmuch by the Virus was that their own
> computers had a more stable, if more primitive, form of it installed
> already.  Virus advanced Darrian understanding of AI by at least fifty
> years.  The Regency can preen and strut about never making a deal with the
> Virus, but they have a large power that did so a long time in the past
> right on their border.

	To cite Muecke :

		I was not like the shock of becoming sentinent
	other ships had, as I was sentinent before. It was a
	shizo-psychose. Fortunately I had prepared programs for a
	similar event, and everything on board had manual shutdown
	buttons, so I have to thank my crew to give me the time
	to find a solutution for AIvirus :

	Reprogram and redistribute it.
		Lucan is the enemy - Kill Lucan

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:03:38 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Harold Hale wrote:
> 
> Glenn Crawford writes:
> 
> >Donning flameproof armour, I venture into the debate (only this once, and I
> >will never post on RoM TL again, promise)
> 
>    Oh, now how can we put you on a spit and roast you if you won't hold
> still?  :-)

hee hee!

My comments are not intended to flame, merely to point out that certain
"American Values" are not widely held by the rest of the continent. I
respect the point of view of others, but I don't always agree...

Also note, that my point of view comes from who I am, and where I come
from. If I were constantly faced with violence, I *might* have different
opinions. Or, I might not, and have my life violently ended in
martyrdom. Thank God I haven't yet had much cause to worry about it
(yet)...

<Snip!>

> >Like our society, certain technologies had surged ahead of others,
> >creating social instability. If the Terrans had slowed down their tech
> >surge, they might have been able to come up with a solution to ruling the
> >vast former Vilani Empire.
> 
>    Using this logic, the most technologically advanced societies today
> should be the most unstable.  We're talking about the U.S., Japan, and
> select countries in Western Europe (i.e. Switzerland).  Ooops!  All
> those countries are by far the most *stable*.

Weeeelll... It depends how one defines "stability". Sure, countries like
US and Japan have a relatively stable *political* structure, but Glenn
here is talking about *social* structure. I would argue that the social
stability of US & Japan fall somewhere near the bottom, and the cause
can be attributed to rapidly changing technology. ie. upheavals in the
workforce and family.

Tech changes aren't always bad, imho rapid tech advancement at all
costs, without regard to consequences, rapid development without study
of impact (environmental and social) is almost *always* a bad thing.

'Course, speed of development and *how much* study and forethought is
required is a highly subjective judgement. It's my opinion that in most
cases, not enough forethought is used...

<SNIPPY>

> >American proclivity to firearms is a good modern example; it has been
> >proposed that since America was born in violence, and since that was the
> >solution to the first Problem, it follows that it is the solution to all of
> >them. But it gives America a dynamism that few countries have ever, or will
> >ever possess.
> 
>    While some Americans talk big, and a few of the crazier ones shoot
> first and ask questions later, the vast majority of Americans see
> firearms as a last resort, and pretty much always have (remember the
> Declaration of Independence talks about how the Colonies tried to
> resolve things peaceably first).  In the movies, the hero is the one who
> takes up arms in response to violence or the threat of violence.  This
> is a case where Hollywood reflects the people's attitudes and beliefs.

And this is where *my* beliefs diverge from those of Hollywood. (and
those of the American people, as you imply) Violence begets violence, it
does not solve it.

(Please note the generalization. I will not deny that the surgical use
of violence cannot be used as a means to an end. It is my *personal*
choice that I will *never* exercise it as *my* option, but I do not deny
it as an option to those legally enabled to use it, and use it legally;
or to those in dire distress, who use it only defensively to save an
innocent life or their own.)

>    In frontier days, people had no choice but to take up arms, since
> bandits, ruffins, and the occasional band of natives could slaughter you
> days (or weeks) before help could arrive.  Today, bandits and ruffins
> still exist (though the natives now run casinos--these are still
> potentially dangerous to your wallet), as does '911' and large police
> forces who usually arrive in time to clean up the mess after somebody
> breaks in to your home.  For this reason people generally still feel the
> need to be armed.

It is my perception that more "messes" are made when households stock
their own firearms. Not having a whackload of statistics to back my
claim, I would just like to caution that there are certain risks that
one takes when one keeps a firearm. Is it *really* safer?

> >If America dies, it will die in violence.
>
>    If America dies, it will be because the majority of people would
> rather have the government take care of them instead of taking care of
> themselves.  America is a set of ideas more than a set of borders.  When
> those ideas die, America will go with them.

Actually, I take the opposite view. If America dies, it will because a
minority becomes overcome by a conspirational fervor, and believes that
government is "out to get them" "oppress the people" and take away their
"God given rights and freedoms". The countryside becomes fractured by
guerrilla fighting, cities become staging grounds for terrorist attacks.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

America will die when it forgets their Government is "of the people, for
the people, and by the people." 

"No one is an island", someone else once said.

> >Canadians tend to see solutions in terms of new laws, as we were born by
> >an act of legislation. When we die, it will be because we legislated
> >ourselves out of existence.

And that's a bad thing? ;-) I feel uncomfortable with the use of "When"
instead of "If". Nothing is inevitable.

>    Not to tell you how to run your country (that's not my job), but IMHO
> before Quebec or the other provinces would be allowed to secede, they
> would have to do so with the sword, not the pen.  "Anything worth having
> is worth fighting for", so said somebody before my time.

What would be gained, if the *people* of Quebec (not current government)
desired to "secede" and TROC (the rest of Canada) decided to call up
arms and not let them?

Scenario #1: Quebec declares independance. Canada balks. War declared.
Economic and political instability ensues. People Die. USA intervenes.
(Don't tell me you wouldn't, your largest trading partner fractures and
starts fighting on your border...) Quebec's nationalism increases and
becomes more militant. France gets involved. Things get *really* messy.
Devolution into a Northern Ireland-like situation, or a more global
conflict ensues...

Scenario #2: Quebec declares independance. Much political and legal
wrangling over what Quebec can and cannot do. How much of the national
debt do they assume? How much territory? (northern QC does *not* want to
separate, being mostly populated by First Nations peoples) Economic
instability. Both parties agree to take their grievances to Hague for
consideration... Separation terms are established, and Quebec becomes an
independant entity in a Canadian EC-esque economic federation. BC sees
the plum deal and wants out too... 

I find Scenario #1 highly unlikely and more distasteful than Scenario
#2. (Also unlikely, BTW) Most likely what will happen is that powers
will continue to be devolved to the provinces until a more loose
confederation (ala Swiss) is reached, sporadic cycles of Quebec
nationalism will wax and wane as they have ever since the British
defeated the French on the Plains of Abraham...

Governments in the 21st century become more and more emasculated as
Corporate entities displace their sovereignty in key areas. Democracy
stagnates and is replaced by a feudal technocratic system, where a tiny
oligarchy rules the majority of the world's citizens... whooops... I
digress...

Sorry for the increasingly off-topic rant. Won't happen again.

- -- another Glenn, slightly delirious from the heat...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:09:12 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

At 06:27 PM 8/6/97 BST-1, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <l03020901b0092965f917@[198.168.183.133]>
>
>Roderick,
>
>> OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>> There's lots there for a Trav game...
>
>Mac only, isn't it?

I had thought they did a windows 95 port.

I loved it on my Mac.

Scott 

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:07:34 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

At 10:53 PM 8/5/97 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 08/05/97 at 05:38 PM,  CardSharks@aol.com said:
>>Changing Careers. Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a person may
>>change his chosen occupation. For most people this is not an easy thing to
>>accomplish. 
>
><snip>
>
>>Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and continuance)
>>are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to a
>>DM of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.

Strong disagreement.  I do like the minus on the enlistment roll, as it is
often hard to get into a career after you have some rank elsewhere, but
once in, you actually have somewhat of an advantage in experience, which
offsets your disadvantage in domain knowledge.  Further, people are going
to do something after leaving a career - they do not just die off, and the
world should model the fact that after five years, someone might become a
scholar, and then return to their old career, or start a new one.  From
where I sit, this is pretty darn common - most people will change careers
twice in a thirty year period.

>>*** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a second
>>career?
>
>No!

Agreed - no!
 
>>A character with a commission in a previous career automatically receives
>>a commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest
>>obtained previously.

I hope that the Imperium allows easy service jumping or cross training, as
the various military branches have to work together.

>>*** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about
>>enlisted? 
>
>Good question.  I know people that have moved from Marines to Army and Navy
>to Marines, but I don't know how much, if any, rank they lost. Losing 1 or
>2 levels seems reasonable.

I have known people who lost none.  Remember that officer rank comes at a
rate of one per term, so losing a rank is fairly traumatic.  Losing an
enlisted rank, which can show up at one a year, is less traumatic.

>>Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).
>
>I'd be inclined to say that once you get to E or O 7+, any time in another
>*service* would be more a matter of cross-training/posting than an actual
>career change.  Admiral Dudley leaves the Imperial Navy to accept a
>commission as General Dudley..I've got my doubts.

Certainly - in a military system that has so many responsibilities as the
3I, I can see a planetary army wanting an admiral to plan their resistance
to invasion.

>>Are some second careers precluded? 
>
>Probably, not.

I would think not, as long as every service has either enlistment
requirements, or age requirements.  For example, I can see the Navy not
accepting anyone as an O1 if they are over 26.  They might, though accept
them as an O3.  This would be reflected in the harder enlistment roll.
>
>>Any other comments?
>
>It might work best to have a PC start at the bottom for all careers.  If
>you've spent 16 years in the Navy working  your way up to Captain, the
>player is going to think twice about starting a second career in the Army
>as a 2nd Lt.  Doing this the PC can switch to any career, but there is a
>severe penalty for doing so, especially once they've built up some tenure.

This seems too severe, imho, given that the system does not allow cross
training or seconding.  I would prefer a system where people can move, but
it takes a lot of effort to move without losing seniority.  For example,
force them to make a promotion roll once per rank they used to possess.  If
they make it, they keep their old rank, if they fail, they lose one, and
have to roll again.  As a kindness, I would allow them to roll in advance,
because damn few are going to be caught out by this.

Alternatively, put a "special option" on the skill table, which allows a
service or branch jump.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:55:26 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1648

On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:05:42 -0400, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
wrote:

>Yo Folks,
>    Since my original message declaiming Roger Sanger's disservice to the
>DGP material I've received a number of supportive messages. Rather than
>just take that as a private confirmation of what I feel I'd like to turn it
>into a market force whereby we can, hopefully, pursuade him to take action.
>To this end I've created a petition and placed it on the web. I'd ask each
>of you who would like to see the DGP material back in publication to visit
>the page, http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/dgp, and sign it. There is
>plenty of space on the form for additional comments.
>    The text of the petition is as follows:
>
>"Given the high esteem in which these works are held by the player
>community, Mr. Sanger's inactivity is an insult to the people who
>originally produced them. We, the undersigned, roundly chastise Roger
>Sanger for sitting on these and call upon him to

While I agree that Roger has been singularly ineffective in
returning these products to the marketplace, and support the idea
that he should surrender the rights (possibly via sale) to an
individual or organization that can and will return them to the
marketplace, I cannot sign the petition as written.

Roger strikes me as a "creative type" of person: one who has many
ideas, and whose mind is never truly at rest.  This can be a
blessing for an individual who has trained themselves to focus on
a project and see it through; it can be a curse to one who has
not.  I get the impression that Roger is in the latter class, as
am I - but that Roger lacks even the rudimentary self-training
that I have achieved at a great cost in lost time, disappointed
expectations, and personal reputation.  Roger may honestly
believe that he has the ability to deliver on his promises;
certainly, I am not willing to cry insult over his failure to
deliver - disappointment, certainly.

Nor do I believe that "chastisement" is appropriate; this again
may be part of his "curse": that he is a poor businessman (as I
am), but again, has failed to realize it (which I _did_, and for
that reason alone I am not a consultant).  I would urge him to go
into partnership with someone who has abilities to complement
his; and can channel Roger's energy and keep him focussed until a
project has reached fruition. =20

Do not overlook the fact that Roger is as much a victim of this
situation as we are, even though the fingers (rightly) point to
him: Roger has made an investment of his own in those rights; he
cannot recoup that investment until/unless he either sells them
or brings the products back to market.  It is entirely possible
that he is as frustrated as we are.

Also, for good and proper reasons, neither he nor Imperium Games
can discuss the negotiations between them without the
acquiescence of the other - so unless the both agree on making a
public statement, we don't know whether there are any legal
issues standing in the way.  And if there are, the obstacles
could have been placed by either party - or by their respective
lawyers, regardless of how the principals feel!

Jo, I fully support your goal of getting the DGP material back in
print - and I would very much like to see even the unfinished
notes from some of the other products, like The Black Duke or the
third and fourth volumes of The MegaTraveller Alien.  But to take
what I can only call a punitive and truculent tone with respect
to Roger is not something that I can in good conscience acquiesce
to.

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 16:11:19 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Andrew Boulton wrote:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <l03020901b0092965f917@[198.168.183.133]>
> 
> Roderick,
> 
> > OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
> > There's lots there for a Trav game...
> 
> Mac only, isn't it?

Nope. Marathon 2 is out for Win95, too.

Marathon Infinity (includes map and physics model creation tools) is
only available for Mac though, and I don't think the PC version of M2
sold well enough to warrant a port. Pity.

The game engine isn't much different, though. All it would take would be
to convert the sounds, textures and maps.

I've had this tool to convert Mac maps to PC format on my drive for a
while now. I'd have to change the Infinity textures to M2 textures, but
I could conceiveably [ie. theoretically] make a PC version of my Sub
Merchant map.

Tell ya what, if five PC users mail <jumpspace@geocities.com> to request
a PC-compatible SubMerchant, I'll do it this weekend, and post it.

- -- Glenn Hoppe

PS. I just downloaded a Marathon-EVIL Forge patcher yesterday, anyone
for EVIL versions of my maps? I think Devlins infesting the staterooms
would be cute...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 19:47:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Oh Canada!

On 08/06/97 at 02:03 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> said:

>Sorry for the increasingly off-topic rant. Won't happen again.

Oh, of course it will!  You Canadians just can't help yourselves.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: More Code Duello

Eris Reddoch  Re: Duels and Old Hickory!

> On 08/05/97 at 12:00 PM,  GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
> 
> >Andrew Jackson, before he was president, fought a number of duels. During
>> one, he was struck by his opponent's shot but managed to remain on his
>> feet. Jackson insisted on taking his shot, which killed his unfortunate
>> opponent. Jackson evidently carried the bullet in his chest cavity
> >througout the rest of his life ... tough old bird.
> 
> Later, a political opponent attacked him on the steps of the capitol
> building and Jackson beat the stuffings out of him with his walking stick. 
> Yeah, Jackson was one tough old bird! ;->

Jackson was in his 80s, at the time, IIRC, and it was an assassin: the guy
walked up, whipped out a pistol and it misfired (percussion cap went off, but
the powder wasn't ignited). Jackson wacks the guy with his cane, and the
assassin whips out a second pistol, which _also_ misfires, and Jackson has to
be restrained from killing the poor schmuck. 

We now return you to the discussion in progress...

Loren Wiseman
     GDW Emeritus/Great Old One

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:05:01 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21 or Mileu:-2508

The ever mysterious Commander X wrote:

> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:31:00 -0400
> From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
> Subject: Re: Mileu:E21
>

< Major Snipe of some Good Stuff! >

> ->* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>
> Belter Companies ('Red Dwarf' Mining Ships?), Scouts as well. And
> Rogues,
> Schollars, and Military Guys (oh my!)
>
> Claim jumping pirate types could hassel the belters :)
>
> A company could hire the PC's to stake a claim on a world in the
> Proxima
> System
>
> >* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery
> of
> jump
> >drive and the Vilani.
>
> It's these same companies(Sternmetal? GSBaG?) that pressure UNSCA into
>
> devloping more Jump ships and explorations to other systems for mining
>
> that leads to First Contact, and Interstellar Wars.  IIRC it was
> originaly a dispute over Mining rights on Barnard right?  The Terrans
> got
> impatient and fired the first shot IIRC.
>
> _______________
> Commander X
>


Just happened to have my copy of AM 6 (Solommani) next to me when I read
this so I thought I'd chime up.
First paragraph in the "Terran Confederation" Section, " Although each
of Terra's nations maintained its own space operations, the need was
seen for cooperation between those space forces in such simple matters
as traffic control, orbit assignment, and radio frequency allocation.
The agency established to meet this need was the United Nations Space
Coordination Agency - UNSCA."

The first mission to Bernard's Star was undertaken by the US Space Force
(indicating that the US was still a major player at this time), " It
took several years before a US Space Force team based on Luna tried a
mission which, in several trips, established an intermediate stopover
and refueling point about one parsec out."

Next paragraph states," Joint UNSCA expeditions were quickly launched -
to meet and deal with the Vilani on Barnard and later on the
Vilani-settled worlds of Nusku and Gashidda, and to explore the as yet
unsettled worlds of Alpha Centauri. A quick effort was also made to
settle Barnard even as Vilani prospectors were working on that world"
Later in the same section, following the uproar of finding that "most of
the worlds beyond a few parsecs distance were already claimed (by
Vilani)." ..."Individual nations began EXPANDING (emphasis mine) their
armed forces and building starships. Outposts on Barnard and Alpha
Centauri were reinforced and strengthened . In 2118 a minor incident by
a Vilani merchant caravan (it ignored traffic control signals from the
Terran base on Barnard) sparked the First Interstellar War."

I take this to mean that each nation had, at least, law enforcement
agencies involved in it's own extra terrestrial colonies. These served
as the core for military expansion following First Contact. These
national space agencies are organizations that would provide Characters
a means into space, and serve as adventure bases (as stated in previous
post, claim jumpers, criminal flight from Earth to Luna, Mars, Search
and Rescue operations, etc.)

On an another note, I like the idea of this as a source book/expanson
set to the T4 rules.

Mike Peters

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:19:04 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dueling and Equality.

Sebastien Normandin wrote:

> >Andrew Jackson, before he was president, fought a number of duels.
>
> Didn't he also kill a man with a Bowie knife?

I believe you're actually thinking of Jim Bowie, the man who made that
blade famous.  I think he killed some Frenchmen in a closed room with no
light.  That's what Alan Ladd did in the movie anyway  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:09:12 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: T4 Hydrographic Roll

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-06 04:05:52 EDT, you write:
>
> << I just started on a computerized Traveller sector generator when I
> came
>  upon the roll for Hydrographic in the T4 rule book (page 130):
>
>  Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere)
>   >>
>
> Hmmm. My T4 says 2D-7+Size (page 135).

BOTH of you are right :-P

pg. 135 chart:  2D-7+Size
pg. 130 text:    2D-7+Atmosphere

Can we get a ruling?  I'm no physicist but Size seems the better
indicator to me, since it corresponds to the amount of material that
gathered to form a planet, and thus corresponds to the amount of
hydrogen and oxygen that would be present.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:17:07 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Hull Shapes (in general)

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
> > On this general topic, I have several questions:
>
> Well, you're not quite the ONLY one to have some probblems with the
> Starships book...
>
> Here's a shot at some answers:

[snip]

So, the duck test, am I right?  If it looks like a box, its a box?

> There are LxWxH ratios in FFS2, and (without looking, because I dont
> have
> it here) I think in QSDS.

Don't have and haven't seen FFS2.  QSDS has nothing I can find, though I
may be blind.

> Too bad, I'm sorry you wasted money on Starships, because it is truly
> one
> of the crappiest game supplements ever produced.

So true.  How did it get out the door, and how did I -not- make my
brother return it after giving him the cash for it.  <sigh>

Bloo

> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:09:16 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

Disclaimer:  This is not an attack!  This is not an attack!  Merely an
interpretation of text.  I love Marc Miller's Traveller!   The following
is meant as constructive criticism as I hope to see Traveller grow and
get better.  It may be a bit "rules-lawyer-ish"  but as I'm in law
school have players that game master themselves, I hope you'll forgive
it.  :-)

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> You shoulod go back and read T4. This is essentially the text from T4
> on
> second career.

Well, yes and no.  The T4 text says nothing about adventuring being the
second career.  It also says in paragragh 3, column 1, page 22:  "During
character generation, when a Traveller character leaves a career for any
reason, he may choose to pursue a different one, going through the
enlistment process all over again.  There is a penalty for doing this,
however.  The enlistment roll for a second career is subject to a DM of
- -2, for a third career it is a DM of -3, and so on.  All other DMs,
qualifications, and preferences apply."

There is no hint of a desire to limit the number of careers.  Indeed, "
. . . and so on . . ." implies as many careers as you can make the
enlistment roll for.  If it was your intention to limit careers, Marc,
its not evident in this language.  It may be in other language.

Granted, I did misread the increase of DMs by 1 per subsequent career.
But I like the current T4 language and would even increase the modifier
to increments of 2.

> My basic position on second careers is that they shouldn't be allowed
> for
> humans. Your second career is adventuring. After I did that post, and
> I got a
> wave of responses saying second careers are in T4 and we need to keep
> that, I
> looked it up. The text above is the result.
>
> Marc

I guess I'm most curious as to why you feel that way, Marc.  I don't
think that at all.  If it weren't possible to roll up octogenerian
players, I might agree, stopping character development before the onset
of middle age.  And how do you deal with the problem of a failed
continuance roll?  Take a hypothetical.  I want to make a character (or
NPC for that matter) who was born the same year as Cleon I for a
campaign starting in Year 0.  Should I have to abort or 'freeze' the
character if he fails a continuation roll after one term?  (Now that I
think about it, some 'frozen' characters born during or pre-Cleon might
be interesting  ;-)  And if he fails multiple continuation rolls or is
injured?

I'm really not trying to attack your position at all.  I just want to
understand it.



Peace
Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1655
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1656



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Second Careers
FFS2 sensor errata (some quick notes)
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Perseid meteor shower peaks this Mon.
new sensor packages for QSDS
Re:Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Re:  Apology
Re: Shipplans and stuff.
T4.1 Charcter Gen
Telekinesis In T4(Erratta?)
Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Re: Oh Canada!
Re: Second Careers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:52:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Second Careers

In a message dated 97-08-06 20:44:19 EDT, you write:

<<I hope that the Imperium allows easy service jumping or cross training, as
the various military branches have to work together.  >>

You mean like the US?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:54:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFS2 sensor errata (some quick notes)

FFS 2 sensor errata:

Folding arrays: folding sensor arrays should be the same volume, mass, and power
as the equivalent non-folding array, but cost twice as much and require only 10%
as much surface area with no minimum diameter requirements. While a folding array
is extended a ship may not maneuver.

Power for passive sensors should be in MW, not kW

Conversions: the conversion table is in error in several respects - use the
table in Part 3 of the Definitve Sensor rules instead.

There are several other changes I am considering for game balance reasons:
adjusting the maximum fire range of LIDARS to match passive sensors of the
same sensitivity (to make play easier), reducing the cost of sensor arrays
somewhat, and reducing the power required for a PEMS jammer.


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:54:03 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>
>In-Reply-To: <l03020901b0092965f917@[198.168.183.133]>
>
>Roderick,
>
>> OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
>> There's lots there for a Trav game...
>
>Mac only, isn't it?

	Nope... they  released a Win95 version of Marathon 2: Durandal, the
second of the three games.  Bungie has a website somewhere you can order it
from if you like.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:56:29 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Perseid meteor shower peaks this Mon.

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
>On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 	Just thought I'd inject a real-life astronomical note here; the
>> Perseid meteor shower peaks Monday August 11th-Tuesday August 12th this
>> year. (SNIP)  For neophyte amateur astronomers meteor observations are
>> one of the easiest astronomical projects; all you need is paper, lawn
>> chair, and warm clothes.  Telescopes, binoculars, and so forth are mostly
>> useless.
>
>Hmmm, you're showing your geographic bias here, Roderick! ;-)
>
>Here the warm clothes are a bit too much (I think it got down to 80F
>last night)...but the show is just as good!
>


	Ahh... shirtsleeve weather and clear desert skies to boot.  You
lucky dog you :).  I'm just praying for good weather Monday night...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:02:39 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: new sensor packages for QSDS

For the sake of this month's THUDD, and for QSDS users in general, I've
come up with a bunch of QSDS-style sensor packages using the new sensor
rules. Currently only TL-10 is supported.
I'm interested in working with any shipbuilders who have special needs,
questions about the sensor rules or questions about sensors in FFS2.


These use the normal QSDS notation, but sensor sensitivities are on the new
scale, and a few new letters had to be added:

Letter	Meaning
A	AEMS active sensor
P	PEMS passive sensor 
L	LIDAR tracker
JA	AEMS deceptive jammer
JP	PEMS jammer
S	scanner-only sensor (may not be used for fire control)
T	tracker-only sensor (may not be used for detecting targets, only for
	  tracking already-detected or fire control solutions)
F	folding array (ship may not maneuver while array is unfolded; reduce 
	sensitivity 0.5 when array folded)
sc	Science-optimized sensor

Note that some packages include multiple passive, active or LIDAR sensors.

For example, a A11.5 P14FS P13.5T L14.5 JA12 JP13.
has an 11.5 active sensor, a 14 passive folding array scanner (not useful
for fire control), a 13.5 passive tracker (only used for fire
control), a 14.5 LIDAR tracker, a 12 active jammer, and a 13 passive jammer.


Please excuse the sales rhetoric following the sensor descriptions; I've been
shopping for cars, which has infected my brain. There is some valuable commentary
buried in the rhetoric, though. The single most important lesson for ship
designers is "don't neglect LIDAR" - a cheap LIDAR will often be able to 
get a fire control lock when a medium-sized passive array can't.


TL10 sensors:
Type	   Power   Cost	 Area   Vol   Hull  Rating			Crew
Basic	     0.4    2.8	  0.6   2.1     0   A11 P12.5 L0 JA0 JP0	1.0
Improved     0.8   14.1	  2.8	7.8     1   A11 P13 L14 JA0 JP0		1.5
Small Mil    7.0  135.0	 26.5  71.5    40   A11.5 P13.5 L14.5 JA11 JP0  2.0
Medium Mil 156.5 1856.6	321.3 955.3  1000   A12 P14 P13.5S L15 L15 JA12 JP0
								crew=3
Science	     5.2 1225.0	 25.0 425.0     0   A11.5 P14Fsc L0. JA0. JP0.	1.0
Mil Picket 111.2 1605.0	 96.0 629.0    40   A11.5 P14FS P13.5T L14.5 JA12 JP13.5
								crew=3
Lurker	     1.3  181.3	 36.3  75.3    40   A10 P13.5 P13.5S L14.5 JA0 JP0	1.5
SearchLight 53.2  275.8	 55.2 266.7	1   A12 P13 L15 JA0 JP0 	1.5

								

Over the past year BamTech has been working quietly behind the scenes as a major
consultant to the Imperium on sensor and electronics countermeasures issues.
Now, BamTech is prepared to come out from the shadows of the "black world" and
apply its unmatched expertise in sensor analysis and design to the construction
of a whole suite of sensor products - ranging from the solid and reliable to
state-of-the-art equipment for the Imperial Navy.

Our first production facilities are located on Linth (Core 0502 B664884-A),
and until certain complex legal issues are sorted out, we are emphasizing
TL-10 sensors. These sensors can be maintained by less advanced worlds on the
fringes of the Imperium, and BamTech is even prepared to licence manufacturing to
local corporations. The initial annoucement was timed to coincide with this
month's THUDD competition for a TL-10 System Defence Boat. We at BamTech are
confident that our sophisticated sensors will provide several exciting design
options to THUDD participants.

In addition to sensors, BamTech is searching for industry partners for a planned
line of stealthy starship hulls. True stealth can't be added as an afterthought - 
it must be designed into a hull from the ground up.

The initial line includes no less than 8 sensor packages - more than any of our
competitors have ever offered! With such a wide range, ship designers can be sure
of finding the perfect package even for the most exotic requirement.

For civilian customers, we offer the BamTech Basic package, certified to meet
navigational requirements on all Imperial and neighbouring worlds. This package
is recommended only for the most confident of shipholders, as it provides effectively
no fire control capability.

The BamTech Standard adds a enhanced passive sensor, the BamTech P1300, capable of
detecting small civilian spacecraft at ranges in excess of 5,000,000 km. The
P1300 also provides a significant passive fire control capability. More importantly,
it adds a cost-effecitve LIDAR tracker, the L1400, capable of engaging twenty
targets simultaneously to ranges of nearly 1,000,000 km. Pirates will know they're
in for a fight when the L1400 lights up their hull!

The Small and Medium Military packages add enhanced active, passive, and LIDAR
sensors, together with sophisicated electronic countermeasures. The Medium,
with its dual scanners and LIDARS, allow a destroyer-sized starship to 
excercise absolute command over its assigned patrol area.

For the more peaceful customer, the BamTech "Tycho" Science package features
the most sophisticated sensor array available, the S1400 folding science array.
From the surface of Sylea, this array can easily resolve a man-sized target on
the moon! In addition, it includes the full functionality of a P1400 spacecraft
tracking array - including an unmatched passive fire control capability for those
tricky tenure struggles.

Finally, BamTech offers three sensor systems for specialized military needs. The
powerful Picket suite combines a large folding array - the largest BamTech
currently offers - with a powerful ECM suite, ideal for allowing small warships
to listen in on enemy ship movements and escape undetected. The Lurker suite
uses dual passive sensor arrays - one full-function, one scanner - while 
reducing costs by including only navigational radar sensors; ideal for those
who prefer not to announce their presence to the whole world. Alternatively,
the SearchLight suite is for combat vessels unafraid to be seen. It includes an
A1200 imaging active electromagnetic sensor, the same as the Medium Military
suite, but for a fraction of the total cost. Hostile vessels trying to hide
with their power plants shut down will be in for the (last) surprise of their
lives!

If these suites don't match your needs, BamTech is prepared to work with
major shipbuilders to assemble custom packages for any function - from
sensor drones to system control ships.

BamTech is prepares to ship all these sensor suites in limited (prototype)
quantities for the THUDD competition, and to ramp up production to meet the
needs of the winning team - and we're confident that the winning team will be
the one that choses BamTech! 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:08:42 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re:Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

	WRT the title: there's a great old limerick that goes:

	There was a young lad from Quebec
	In snow buried up to his neck
	When asked "Is you friz"?
	He said: "Yes I iz,
	But we don't call this cold in Quebec!"


	I really shouldn't be diving back into these waters again...
However, since Eris asked, those of you who have no interest in Canadian
politics can safely tune out now.


Eris wrote:

>
>Roderick, that's what a lot of my ancestors thought about our united States
>too.  Their States attempted to peaceably secede and were forced to remain
>part of the United states.  Nothing in our Constitution expressly forbid
>secession..then..and opinion was pretty evenly divided on the subject, but
>that didn't stop the bullets from flying.  Don't get me wrong, I think
>union worked out better than disunion would have, but a lot of good people
>died while our basic governmental structure was being changed from a
>decentralized union of independent States to a strongly centralized Union
>of states.
>
>So, when push comes to shove, law rides on the point of a bayonet, "them
>what has the guns makes the rules", and history is written by the winning
>side..and those are *not* uniquely American ideas.  ;->


	Altogether too true; I worry about this a lot; see below.


>
>!!Hypothetical Strawman Warning!!
>
>Speaking TOTALLY hypothetically, how would Ottawa react if Quebec succeeded
>based solely on a 50.1% vote?  If it seized military assets and closes its
>borders?  If it revoked treaties with your First Nations and seized their
>territory.  If it nationalized formerly Canadian and international private
>assets?  If it suppressed Anglophiles, striped them of rights, refused to
>allow them to take their wealth out of Quebec?


	Ok... these are all highly unlikely scenarios.  While the PQ may be
capable of province-wide electoral fraud and incredible mendacity, they
aren't violent.  There was a short-lived and generally pretty half-assed
terrorist movement called the FLQ in the late '60's, who managed to kill
more francophone workers than anglophone oppressors, but they and the
subsequent government reaction in the form of the October Crisis
(basically, martial law was declared, they arrested them all, and that was
that) have pretty well stacked the deck against political violence around
here.  An anglo lobby group office was torched some years back, there's the
odd bit of anglophobic graffiti and vandalism directed at individuals
flying Canadian flags on their property, but other than that things are
pretty peaceful.  Nobody wants to see tanks in the streets again.

	Secondly, diehard separatists are in the minority; approximately
35-38% of the province's population are what could be called "purs et
durs"; these are mostly concentrated in the rural regions of the province;
western Quebec, Montreal, and parts of the South Shore are mostly
federalist.  The problem is the so-called "soft nationalists" who are
lukewarmish Quebec nationalists but who are also kind of attached to Canada
and who form a large swing vote.  Thus, in order to win, the PQ would have
to convince these guys to vote yes.  In the last referendum, they promised
the electorate that they'd get to keep their Canadian citzenship and
passport, they'd continue using the Canadian dollar, and that the rest of
Canada would for some reason accept a new "partnership" where Quebec, with
25% of the population, would have equal power and representation with
"English Canada" in a new political framework whose details were howlingly
ludicrous.  According to exit polls, 20-30% of the 49% of Quebecers that
voted Yes in the last referendum actually thought that they'd still be
sending MP's to Ottawa, keeping their passports, and using the Canadian
dollar...

	If the PQ can't convince the soft nationalists that they can have
the best of both worlds, that all will be sunshine and light, and that
Canada is an evil British plot to eradicate all French and that
anglomontrealers are its shock troops, they can't win.  There aren't enough
stupid and racist Quebecers out there for them to pull it off in an honest
way.  If it becomes quite clear that the rest of Canada will play hardball,
that Quebec will lose all input on Canadian monetary policy, that Quebecers
won't be able to renew their Canadian passports, and that Quebec will be
partitioned with Canada keeping the federalist regions, the soft
nationalists will vote "no" and the PQ will lose.


 However, since you asked:


1) Seizing military assets:  Highly unlikely.  The provinces do not have
armed forces.  The closest thing to a military Quebec has is the Surete du
Quebec.  They have eight armoured cars and some SWAT teams.  And they
aren't exactly the best police force in the world.  A few years back a
bunch of Mohawks successfully defended a reserve against the SQ, who among
other things attacked upwind into their own tear gas barrage and managed to
fatally shoot one of their own in the process.  The thought of the SQ
taking on even a reserve milita unit is hilarious.  Basically, I doubt that
the PQ are dumb enough to try this; they couldn't pull it off.

2) Closing borders: likewise highly unlikely; they could have the SQ put up
roadblocks, but the SQ would not capable of holding them.  Recall that
these guys got routed by a few Mohawks with AK-47s.  They could try and
barricade the highways, but they'd fold as soon as the army showed up.  And
airports are a federal responsibility, so they'd have to seize all of
those, too.  They simply aren't militarily capable of it, even assuming
they were inastute enough to try it.

3) Pushing Natives around: They could try...  the last time they tried to
push Natives around, the SQ's ass got kicked.  Basically, Indian relations
are a federal field of competence, so legally they couldn't.  And even if
they decided to play rough with the natives, well, the international
political fallout would be horrendous.  Besides, Quebec is a major exporter
of electricity, from James Bay and Churchill Falls.  These power lines run
through native lands.  A few strategically placed charges of dynamite and
the province is blacked out and losing gazillions of export dollars.

4) Seizing stuff: political suicide for a number of reasons.  First off,
Quebec's economy is highly export-oriented.  If the PQ pissed off their
major trading partners, the economy would tank.  Secondly, they can't win
without convincing the voters it'll all be a happy little walk in the park;
once things get rough and the soft nationalists realize that separating
isn't just going to be like waving a magic wand (like our premier claimed
it would be) support for separation will drop like a brick.

5) Anglo oppression: well, basically, I suppose they could try it.
However, their bond ratings would tank and they'd never be able to borrow
money internationally again.  The political and economic fallout would be
horrendous.  Even with the relatively low level of discriminatory measures
directed at anglos (banning of the language from public view, barring
access to english schooling to non native Quebec anglophones, limiting
access to English health care via bureaucratic means, compulsory
francization of businesses over a certain size, trying to unilinguize the
civil service, censoring english-language web-sites) the province is
suffering economically.  Capital is trickling away, and the province is
recieving far less than its per capita share of foreign investment in
Canada.  While the rest of Canada is doing OK economically, Quebec is kinda
limping with growth rates well under 3%.  Over 1/2 of Montreal's population
lives on some form of government financial assistance.  Recruiting
qualified professionals into Quebec is difficult; people are concerned
about being able to educate their kids in english.  If the PQ turned up the
heat, things would just get worse.


>
>Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
>hypothetically would your Federal government just let it happen?  Or would
>it *act*, saying it was in the best interests of Canada as a whole?  You
>might be surprised by how *you* react..how your government reacts.
>


	 I suspect that the feds would act in this case.  You see, while I
could condone a legal separation done democratically and constitutionally,
the current PQ position is that they are above the law, basic principles of
democracy, and the Constitution.  That I cannot condone.  If they act
illegally, I would hope that the feds would bring them to heel by whatever
justifiable means are neccessary.  And if this means putting tanks in the
street, arresting the ringleaders,and restoring the rule of law, then so be
it.  Its a basic principle of international law that states may use force
to deal with internal threats to their stability.  I just really, really
hope that things will not come to this.  However, "peace at any price" is
not something that I believe in.  I think that the _ideals Canada stands
for _ (democracy, human rights, pluralism, and the rule of law) are worth
defending; an illegal, unconstitutional, and unilateral attempt to subvert
them might IMHO depending on the circumstances justify reasonable armed
intervention.  However, _I_ _WOULD_ _NOT_ _BE_ _HAPPY_ _TO_ _SEE_ _THIS_
_HAPPEN_!!!  It would really, really, really suck.

	It is possible that military action would follow an illegal
separation attempt (and I think that regardless of how it's done, there'd
be some civil violence).  It's just a possibility that nobody likes to
think about...  although there was one poll a while back that indicated
that 75% of Canadians outside Quebec condoned the used of military force in
the event of an illegal separation attempt.  It might be extremely easy to
score political points by taking an extreme hard line with the PQ in such a
case.


	And how would I react?  If Quebec separates legally, I don't know;
I kind of like it here, y'see :).  It would depend on how bad things got.
If Quebec separates illegally, I'd leave.  I have no wish to live in a
two-bit  banana republic where the weather is too cold for bananas.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:20:16 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re:  Apology

>When I responded to the M:E21 post in the last digest, I was using
>Microsloth Exchange, which slaped a nastly little WINMAIL.DAT to the end of
>an already lengthy post.  That's the last time I'd let some System
>Administrator at the office mess arround with my system, in which I know
>works! :)

That's OK. I did something even more boneheaded by attaching the end of the
list to my last post. Just in case you all missed it the first time. :)

>Again my appologies for flooding the list.

And mine as well, for repeating it.


Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:42:01 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipplans and stuff.

Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> 
>         Just got acquainted with some pretty nifty Cad-like engines while doings
> some shipplans. I was wondering if anyone has some cad files with
> furnitures, consoles and stuff to incorporate into my own. Heard some guy
> talking about making an internet-ship plan standard using a standard set of
> objects in cad plans.
> 
>         Anyone who knows what the heck i'm talking about?
> 
>         I think these files would work: .WMF, .DXF, .DWG .
> 
> Keep on pouring your stuff onto this excellent list.

I mentioned the idea of an object-oriented standard for ship's plans
when the CD idea was being knocked about.  I was thinking DXF, since it
seems the most universal from what (little) I know.  I've got a few
deckplans in DXF format on my web page if you want to look at them at:

	http://www.umr.edu/~mkm/trav/travpage.htm

I'd be quite willing to post any that anyone else has also.

Does anyone know of a freeware or shareware program that works directly
with DXF's and runs under win32?  The package I've been working with has
a proprietary native format and converts to/from DXF.

Thanks,

	Matt McL
- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 23:04:12 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: T4.1 Charcter Gen

Marc,

Will you be also revising the Psionic Charcter generation too? It needs
some badly.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 23:05:56 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Telekinesis In T4(Erratta?)

Well I have looked very hard at the Telekinesis in T4 , but I have just few
questions

The table says that a mass 4 object at speed 6 does 28d6 damage.
But in the text under TK it says cost 1kg for a cost of 1 point, and times
ten for each additional point, and speed is 1kph for one point and each
additional point times ten speed.

Does that mean a 1000kg projectile travelling at 100,000kph only does 28d6
damage. I think that is underestimating the damage.

Also a 1 kg lead ball will be 55.8mm in diameter a 1000kg lead ball will be
558mm in diameter. Hell I roll that 1000kg puppy over you at a walk and do
severe damage to you. Stopping it would be a real bitch.

Or could the table mean a 4kg projectile travelling at 6kph does 28d6?

Either way you interpret it is way off.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:01:19 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

>Roderick, that's what a lot of my ancestors thought about our united States
>too.  Their States attempted to peaceably secede and were forced to remain
>part of the United states.  Nothing in our Constitution expressly forbid
>secession..then..and opinion was pretty evenly divided on the subject, but
>that didn't stop the bullets from flying.  Don't get me wrong, I think
>union worked out better than disunion would have, but a lot of good people
>died while our basic governmental structure was being changed from a
>decentralized union of independent States to a strongly centralized Union
>of states.
>So, when push comes to shove, law rides on the point of a bayonet, "them
>what has the guns makes the rules", and history is written by the winning
>side..and those are *not* uniquely American ideas.  ;->

The philosophy of "them what has the guns makes the rules" sounds
remarkably like the ramshakle gunboat diplomacy that America has been
practicing for far too long, and has nothing at all to do with a Republic
founded on ideal democratic notions. Indeed. Opinion WAS pretty evenly
divided on the subject, and it might be argued that it was a Brit, Thomas
Paine, who in all likelyhood swayed public opinion. According to some, the
broadsheet _Common Sense_ did more to canvas opinion on the issue than
anything else at the time. For an alternative vision of the founding of
your country might I recommend _The Temple and the Lodge_, a very
enlightening book, to say the least. As for history being written by the
winning side, I disagree. History is written by people, most of whom have
realised that such a simplistically one-sided portrayal of history is not
only incomplete, but irrelevant and of little use.

>!!Hypothetical Strawman Warning!!
>
>Speaking TOTALLY hypothetically, how would Ottawa react if Quebec succeeded
>based solely on a 50.1% vote?  If it seized military assets and closes its
>borders?  If it revoked treaties with your First Nations and seized their
>territory.  If it nationalized formerly Canadian and international private
>assets?  If it suppressed Anglophiles, striped them of rights, refused to
>allow them to take their wealth out of Quebec?

One would hope that Ottawa would react sensibly, and try to reach a
solution. Most of what you assume, of course, presupposes that French
Canadians are barbarians with absolutely no respect for the rule of law.
That this process has been going on so long without any major mishaps is a
testament to the exact opposite. In the 70s, some people thought that soem
of their goals were being pushed out of reach and went to far. But, in
effect, they were reacting to a situation which was already drastically
altered by the Quiet Revolution. That name itself speaks volumes about what
kind of a situation we have here in Quebec. As for Anglophiles, you might
find quite a few in suburban Toronto. Quebecers whose first language is
English are Anglophones.

>Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
>hypothetically would your Federal government just let it happen?  Or would
>it *act*, saying it was in the best interests of Canada as a whole?  You
>might be surprised by how *you* react..how your government reacts.

If you KNOW the Quebec government would never do any of these things, than
why do you even bring it up?

>Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks in
>Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p

If you aren't, then one would expect that you can even better relate to the
situation in Quebec. You too, as you mentioned, have an experience of the
government threatening your culture and way of life, even after you fought
for what you believed in. It was called the Reconstruction era, and
according to one of your most famous southern historians C.Vann Woodward,
your vision of the Federal governement has been colored by it even since.

Just a little friendly food for thought. :)

Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:52:53 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

>Roderick, that's what a lot of my ancestors thought about our united States
>too.  Their States attempted to peaceably secede and were forced to remain
>part of the United states.  Nothing in our Constitution expressly forbid
>secession..then..and opinion was pretty evenly divided on the subject, but
>that didn't stop the bullets from flying.  Don't get me wrong, I think
>union worked out better than disunion would have, but a lot of good people
>died while our basic governmental structure was being changed from a
>decentralized union of independent States to a strongly centralized Union
>of states.

Indeed. Opinion WAS pretty evenly divided on the subject, and it might be
argued that it was a Brit, Thomas Paine, who in all likelyhood swayed
public opinion. According to some, the broadsheet _Common Sense_ did more
to canvas opinion on the issue than anything else at the time.

>So, when push comes to shove, law rides on the point of a bayonet, "them
>what has the guns makes the rules", and history is written by the winning
>side..and those are *not* uniquely American ideas.  ;->

The philosophy of "them what has the guns makes the rules" sounds
remarkably like the ramshakle gunboat diplomacy that America has been
practicing for far too long, and has nothing at all to do with a Republic
founded on ideal democratic notions. For an alternative vision of the
founding of your country might I recommend _The Temple and the Lodge_, a
very enlightening book, to say the least. As for history being written by
the winning side, I disagree. History is written by people, most of whom
have realised that such a simplistically one-sided portrayal of history is
not only incomplete, but irrelevant and of little use.

>!!Hypothetical Strawman Warning!!
>
>Speaking TOTALLY hypothetically, how would Ottawa react if Quebec succeeded
>based solely on a 50.1% vote?  If it seized military assets and closes its
>borders?  If it revoked treaties with your First Nations and seized their
>territory.  If it nationalized formerly Canadian and international private
>assets?  If it suppressed Anglophiles, striped them of rights, refused to
>allow them to take their wealth out of Quebec?

One would hope that Ottawa would react sensibly, and try to reach a
solution. Most of what you assume, of course, presupposes that French
Canadians are barbarians with absolutely no respect for the rule of law.
That this process has been going on so long without any major mishaps is a
testament to the exact opposite. In the 70s, some people thought that soem
of their goals were being pushed out of reach and went to far. But, in
effect, they were reacting to a situation which was already drastically
altered by the Quiet Revolution. That name itself speaks volumes about what
kind of a situation we have here in Quebec. As for Anglophiles, you might
find quite a few in suburban Toronto. Quebecers whose first language is
English are Anglophones.

>Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
>hypothetically would your Federal government just let it happen?  Or would
>it *act*, saying it was in the best interests of Canada as a whole?  You
>might be surprised by how *you* react..how your government reacts.

If you KNOW the Quebec government would never do any of these things, than
why do you even bring it up?

>Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks in
>Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p

If you aren't, then one would expect that you can even better relate to the
situation in Quebec. You too have an experience of the government
threatening your culture and way of life, even after you fought for what
you believed in. It was called the Reconstruction era, and according to one
of your most famous southern historians C.Vann Woodward, your vision of the
Federal governement has been colored by it even since.

Just a little friendly food for thought. :)

Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 14:05:24 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Oh Canada!

At 07:47 PM 6/08/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/06/97 at 02:03 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> said:
>
>>Sorry for the increasingly off-topic rant. Won't happen again.
>
>Oh, of course it will!  You Canadians just can't help yourselves.  ;->

I like Canadians, they seem to make so much more sense. I can see it was
obviously a U.S. team that started the First Interstellear War, (shoot
first, ask questions later) Rather than a Canadian Team (legislate first,
ask questions later). ;)

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 23:16:16 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

At 08:09 PM 8/6/97 -0500, Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:
>Well, yes and no.  The T4 text says nothing about adventuring being the
>second career.  It also says in paragragh 3, column 1, page 22:  "During
>character generation, when a Traveller character leaves a career for any
>reason, he may choose to pursue a different one, going through the
>enlistment process all over again.  There is a penalty for doing this,
>however.  The enlistment roll for a second career is subject to a DM of
>-2, for a third career it is a DM of -3, and so on.  All other DMs,
>qualifications, and preferences apply."

Yes but under Preferential Enlistment: if two qualifying characteristics at
least two points above the number necessary for the enlistment difficulty
modifier may *Automatically* enlist in the career, without making any roll....

So here what you do enlist in first career boost the stats to auto get you
into the second career, boost stats again and enlist in third career and so
on. The minus dm for second and beyond careers is null and void.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1656
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1657



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Second Careers
Re: Second Careers
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Re: Chameleon Suits
Re: Second Careers
T41 Chargen
Rolling Dice for CharGen
Traveller on IRC
Insatbility (and instability too!)
When To Fight?
T: 3I & Separation
Re: Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
THUDDD 6: Contest Announcement: Low-Tech SDB
Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)
Re: Mileu:E21

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 23:10:33 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.
> 
> Changing Careers. Sometimes, at one point in life or another, a person may
> change his chosen occupation. For most people this is not an easy thing to

This may be a factor of age and/or number of terms in old career.  Maybe
a DM of -(total previous terms/2).

> accomplish. Often, it is not so much a result of choice as of necessity: a
> mandatory retirement due to injury, or a failure to continue. Still, some
> people simply choose to quit their current career in order to attempt a new
> one. Within the Traveller game system, a change in career occurs when a
> character ends character generation and begins adventuring.
> A character may also change careers and begin a new career in a different
> field. After mustering out of his or her first career, the character may
> attempt the entire career process in a new field.
> 
> Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and continuance)
> are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to a DM
> of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.
> 
> *** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a second
> career?

Depends.  Going into a dangerous career significantly different from the
previous one may result in greater chance of injury during the first
term.  Of course, if this is done, it should also apply to raw
recruits.  There's a reason noone gets real friendly with the new
replacement 'till he's been in country a while.  Personally, I'd pass on
this one.

I _might_ also see a first-term penalty for promotion.  It doesn't
really make since to me for continuance; once you're in, you're in.
> 
> A character with a commission in a previous career automatically receives a
> commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest obtained
> previously.
> 
> *** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about enlisted?

From what I've seen, it applies for enlisted also.

Maybe base the rank in the new career on a D6:

       1: -2   (you're desparate!) 
     2-3: -1
     4-5: +0
       6: +1  (You've got something they want!)

> Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).
I'd think it applies more strongly at higher paygrades, since you should
be intimately familiar with a service to rank that high in it.  Maybe a
- -1 on the above D6.

> 
> Are some second careers precluded?

Depends on why you left the previous one.  If you got a disciplinary
boot from the Marines, chances are slim of getting in the Navy (except
maybe as a rogue!).  Of course, you might end up in the armed forces of
some PE somewhere; chances are they wouldn't have access to all your
records, and wouldn't care much, as long as you could do the job.

You made a comment about not moving between careers with ranks. I don't
think it should be precluded; maybe just made difficult, like with a DM
of -terms served in previous service for enlistment.
> 
> Any other comments?

It'd be tricky, but I'd like to see a reserve program.  Maybe someone in
academia or an agent is in the Navy reserves and picks up 1 service
skill per term in lieu of a normal skill.  Each term roll for
deployment, with deployment being resolved as an active term in that
service in all respects.  Don't know how you'd resolve promotion; maybe
a -DM to the standard roll.  Reservists get promoted, but not as
quickly.

I don't think the number of terms should be arbitrarily limited.  Myself
as an example, I did six years active Navy, 2 years hanging drywall, and
I'm ending about 8 years of schooling.  I'm getting ready to start my
fourth 'career', as soon as I finish my thesis and land a job, and I'm
still in the reserves.  Maybe not common, but not that uncommon either.

> 
> Marc

Matt McL
- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 23:26:14 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-08-06 20:44:19 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  I hope that the Imperium allows easy service jumping or cross training, as
>  the various military branches have to work together.
> 
>   >>
<SARCASM>
> You mean like the US?
</SARCASM>
> 
> Marc
;)

If you tell them to "secure the building",

  The NAVY will turn out the lights and lock the doors,
  the ARMY will occupy the building and set up a command center,
  the MARINES will capture the building and defend it with suppressive
fire,
  and the AIR FORCE will take out a 3-year lease with and option to buy.

Matt
- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 00:38:52 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I've created a Visio 4.0 template for some some common rooms and fixtures
> that would be on deckplans. It's almost 500k, so I won't send it to the
> list, but if anybody wants a copy let me know.

   Damn netiquette, full speed ahead...  

   Me too!  Me too!!  Me Too!!!

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Chameleon Suits

Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au> wrote:  

>I loved the Combat Environ Suit, since it provided better protection than
>the old Ballistic Cloth armour, could be worn like ordinary combat
>fatigues, could be sealed against most (non-vacuum, non-corrosive) 
>hostile environments, possessed NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical)
>resistance...and was nowhere near as expensive as Combat Armour (aka
>Battledress, these days). 
>
>Add in the Chameleon option, and you had great concealment. The CES 
>was especially useful in mercenary operations against prestellar-tech 
>enemies (ie TL7-9). 

>All in all, the CES was one of the best value-for-money outfits in the
>Traveller arsenal. Where has it gone? 

In early CT this was true, but once JTAS 23 (pp 45-48) came out we had the
TL 14+ Tailored Vacc suit.  This thing beat the old CES all hollow in
terms of armor, comfort, verstaility (it was a full vacc suit after all)
and protection (it was useful in almost any atmosphere and most
temperatures.  With a grav belt you could even survive in Jupiter's upper
atmosphere in one.  That's the one I truly miss.  I hope it appears in a 
future supplement.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:57:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Second Careers

In a message dated 97-08-07 00:12:22 EDT, you write:

<< Disclaimer:  This is not an attack! 

Disclaimer accepted. I make the same disclaimer etc.

 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
 
>>The T4 text says nothing about adventuring being the second career.<<

I agree. It doesnt. What I said was hype/style.
 
>>There is no hint of a desire to limit the number of careers.<<

Actually there is a "hint, since escalating DMs -2, -3, etc "hint" that there
must be an end somewhere.
 
>>and would even increase the modifier to increments of 2.<<

Which I am considering.
 
 
>>Take a hypothetical.  I want to make a character (or NPC for that matter)
who was born the same year as Cleon I for a campaign starting in Year 0.
 Should I have to abort or 'freeze' the character if he fails a continuation
roll after one term?  <<

When you want a specific result, then I believe that you have to start
maniplulating die rolls. That is what A) Quick Generation is about, and B)
Implies that I need to write up something on manipulated die rolls.

Thanks for the feedback.


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Chargen

I have really enjoyed working on T41 Chargen, and as it nears completion, I
want to point out the elements that I think are important/fun/interesting.

Revised Homeworld/Birthworld Determination.
Character Cards.
Education advancement to specific levels (ie, College graduate to Edu 7).
The Technical Institute (thanks Volker!)
Impediments to noble advancement beyond C.
Impediments to Military commissioned rank advancement beyond O6.
The Masquerade for Rogues.
Rewards and Consequences for Rogues.
Assumed Identities for Agents.
Current university association for Scholars (ie The University of Na Ni Po)
Birthdate determination
Official Status for Nobles
Detached Duty for Scouts
Reintroduction of Cutlasses for Scouts

Any comments (especially from those of you who have been reviewing T41
Chargen)?

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:20:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Rolling Dice for CharGen

I have basically thrown out the old T4 "roll a bunch of different ways an=
d
pick the best" concept, and instituted the text below.

Ways To Roll Dice
	Although there are many schools of thought on how dice should be rolled,=
 the
Traveller game system embraces only three for character generation:
traditional rolls, the pre-rolled sequence, and the specific manipulated =
die
roll.
	Traditional Rolls. As the player creates his or her character, the corre=
ct
number of dice are rolled at the moment the result is required. That resu=
lt
is used, and it cannot be changed or re-rolled.
	Pre-Rolled Sequence. Before the character generation procedure is starte=
d,
the player rolls the dice quite a few times and records the results in or=
der.
The player should roll the half die at least 20 times, a single die at le=
ast
40 times, and two dice at least 50 times.
	During character generation, the player selects the next die roll on the
list and uses it. Because the player can make decisions, the player is
allowed, within the context of the rules, to select what roll is next to =
be
made and can search out options within the rules for the best use of that
roll.
	Manipulated Die Rolls. In some situations, a player=92s goal is a very
specific result: a character of a specific age, or in a specific career, =
or
of a specific rank. In such situations, the player can manipulate the
required die rolls in order to achieve such a result.
	When the player is creating a character to be used for adventuring, the
manipulation of die rolls should be coordinated with the game master in o=
rder
to verify that they are legitimate.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:17:56 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller on IRC

Greetings!

This week's topic is Privacy in the Imperium.  As our own lives are 
being documented in ever greater detail, detail that is then sold to 
business for use in marketing, one begins to speculate on how other 
cultures and technologies will deal with the same issue. Join us 
tomorrow night as we explore this topic.

Imperium Games Server, www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 & 6666
8pm Central (I should be on by 7:30 at the latest)
#traveller

As always, if you have any questions or need any help joining us, 
please email me. And topics!  I need topics! <G>

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 01:36:37 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Insatbility (and instability too!)

Glenn Crawford writes:

>>   Using this logic, the most technologically advanced societies today
>>should be the most unstable.  We're talking about the U.S., Japan, and
>>select countries in Western Europe (i.e. Switzerland).  Ooops!  All
>>those countries are by far the most *stable*.
>
>Are they? Democracy provides a release valve. A sort of controlled anarchy.
>And look how hard it was for the USA to maintain a common face amongst its
>allies during the rough days of the cold war when we actually were afraid of
>the USSR. Perhaps I should have phrased it more like saying that once you
>get repeated successes on a certain path, it tends to be positive
>reinforcement on that behaviour. This provides a distinction from merely
>unstable to excessively dynamic. 

   From the American perspective, if we had trouble maintaining NATO, it
was because certain members (who shall go nameless, though one is known
to be a bit Gaullic...) had trouble with the idea that things couldn't
go back to "business as usual" after WW II.  One member in particular
(our Gaullic friend again) became troublesome because they targeted
their nuclear weapons toward West Germany instead of toward the bad
guys, and generally tried to pretend they were an equal military power
to the U.S., which of course they never were. 

   Is the U.S. "excessively dynamic"?  It is far better in terms of
keeping together an empire/republic/kingdom/etc. to be too dynamic than
to be stagnant.  Being stagnant is an open invitation to those who are
dynamic to beat you up and steal your wallet (metaphorically speaking). 
That's what happened to the Vilani--the Terrans were able to move in and
steal an empire because of Vilani stagnation.

>Again....

<snip>

>But Canada's multicultural policy (good idea, lousy excecution) guarantees
>that it won't be worth saving by that time. Nobody has any loyalty to Canada
>itself (or at least, not enough to matter)

   Then it is in the best interest of Canada for the U.S. to continue to
be strong, since fear of being culturally "absorbed" by the Americans
seems to be the only thing keeping the Canadian Federal government from
falling apart.

   Thus another tie-in with Traveller: Without question there would be
factions within the Solomani Party that objected to the Solomani
invasion of the Imperium in 1117 on the grounds that it would only serve
to weaken the Imperium and ensure that the Solomani Confederation would
eventually dissolve into feuding factions (once the Imperium was no
longer a threat).  The Imperial threat seemed to be the only thing
keeping the Solomani Confederation together.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:48:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: When To Fight?

Hello,
>   Not to tell you how to run your country (that's not my job), but IMHO
>before Quebec or the other provinces would be allowed to secede, they
>would have to do so with the sword, not the pen.  "Anything worth having
       ^^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ 
>is worth fighting for", so said somebody before my time.

  It doesn't follow that fighting is the only way to solve problems, or
that what you want to preserve can even survive the fighting - certainly
many Americans regret the outcome or results of the Civil War, and any
real of a loose union with strong states probably died with it.

  Partially, it's a question of constitutional forms; the U.S. started as
a loose federation and tightened up quite substantially; Canada started as
a loose confederation and loosened up noticably, largely courtesy of the
legal interpretations of the British parliament. Mostly, we're happy with
the results.

  I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to take exception
(humourous or not) to the tendency to refer to "yanks".

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:47:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: T: 3I & Separation

....
>Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
>hypothetically would your Federal government just let it happen?  Or would
>it *act*, saying it was in the best interests of Canada as a whole?  You
>might be surprised by how *you* react..how your government reacts.

Hello,
  Any reaction to provocation - and from most Canadians' point of view a
unilateral declaration of independence would be a significant one - is
going to be measured. Only a ridiculously overblown case such as the
one I snipped could prompt an armed response, IMO. But there are ways
to negotiate, with or without threats of force or economic coercion.

  On the whole I'm surprised that threats of economic consequences haven't
quashed the movements commitment to separation long ago. Certainly I can't
see any real advantage to the U.S. from an independent Quebec, and possibly
a great deal of possible damage.

  I'm not really following M:0 (anyone want to buy a copy of Starships?),
but this sort of discussion seems at least vaguely relevant to worlds
associated to some polity/PE or other. Of course, an important difference
would be that any Empire (or at least 1100 years of the Imperium) will
effectively prohibit withdrawal from the state, under threat of economic
embargo or economic action. Such an empire (especially a large one) can't
afford free-riders on its' defence bills, or internal pockets that may
drift politically into enemies, nor can any corporate body (i.e., the
bureaucracies of the Navy, and the Imperial govt) allow the extent of 
either its' budget or physical presence to be eroded.

"We must conquer the small furry animals of the forest moon due to the
expectation of over 400 jobs at the Scout base that will be installed,
four of which will be at the pay grade I'll be promoted to as a result".

>Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks in
>Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p

  What would be a better term? :)

       Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 01:52:09 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

>>Speaking TOTALLY hypothetically, how would Ottawa react if Quebec succeeded
>>based solely on a 50.1% vote?  If it seized military assets and closes its
>>borders?  If it revoked treaties with your First Nations and seized their
>>territory.  If it nationalized formerly Canadian and international private
>>assets?  If it suppressed Anglophiles, striped them of rights, refused to
>>allow them to take their wealth out of Quebec?
>
>One would hope that Ottawa would react sensibly, and try to reach a
>solution. Most of what you assume, of course, presupposes that French
>Canadians are barbarians with absolutely no respect for the rule of law.
>That this process has been going on so long without any major mishaps is a
>testament to the exact opposite. In the 70s, some people thought that soem
>of their goals were being pushed out of reach and went to far. But, in
>effect, they were reacting to a situation which was already drastically
>altered by the Quiet Revolution. That name itself speaks volumes about what
>kind of a situation we have here in Quebec. As for Anglophiles, you might
>find quite a few in suburban Toronto. Quebecers whose first language is
>English are Anglophones.
>
>>Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
>>hypothetically would your Federal government just let it happen?  Or would
>>it *act*, saying it was in the best interests of Canada as a whole?  You
>>might be surprised by how *you* react..how your government reacts.
>
>If you KNOW the Quebec government would never do any of these things, than
>why do you even bring it up?

Lighten up.  He's making an analogy to what happened in the U.S. to
precipitate the Civil War.  Of course, in a civilized nation like Canada,
that could never happen.  The people there aren't barbarians.  Apparently,
that's what the people of my state were 137 years ago, huh?

Let's take this to where it belongs: the Trite Political Discussion list
and return -this- list to Traveller.

Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Honor to those who in the life they lead
define and guard a Thermopylae.
     - C.P. Cavafy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott Nolan
nolan@erols.com
snolan@spa.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 02:17:23 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Roderick Darroch Elliott writes: 

>        I think you're encountering a fundamental difference between the
>U.S. and the Canadian conception of their respective statehoods.  Canada is
>a loose confederation (in fact the loosest on Earth in terms of federal
>power) of a few large former British colonies.  Our federal structure was
>designed to allow provinces a great deal of autonomy; it's not too far off
>the mark to see it more as an association of provinces rather than one big
>country.  Our country was built because it made administrative sense, not
>to champion the democratic ideal (which, nevertheless, we've adopted
>because it's right and it works).  The provinces came together because it
>was mutually advantageous; it makes a certain amount of sense to allow them
>to leave, on fair terms that are acceptable to all Canadians, if the deal
>sours.

   Such thinking is foreign to Americans.  While we have our share of
regional and even state rivalries (Ohio, for example, has a long running
feud with Michigan to the north and Kentucky to the south over seperate
border disputes), after 1865 these never get to the point of troop
mobilizations.  Ultimate Federal authority is unquestioned, though
admittedly this doesn't stop certain states from grumbling when they
feel the Federal government is imposing burdensome demands.  From our
perspective, the American Civil War was as bloody as it was because
regional issues were allowed to take prescedent over national interest. 
We have no desire to let that happen again.

>        This assumption seems to be built right in to our constitutional
>amendment process.  It is possible to amend a province out of
>Confederation; this would require assent from what in practical terms would
>a large supermajority of Canadians and the provincial legislatures.
>
>        The problem with the separatist movement is that it claims to be
>able to unilaterally declare independence on the basis of a 51% or higher
>referendum vote, unfairly short-circuiting the constitutional amendment
>process.  This claim is false (I'll spare you the constitutional details
>:>) and undemocratic since 51% of Quebec's electorate is under 10% of the
>country's population.

   I doubt the seperatists in Quebec will care about Canada's
constitution if they think they have a majority of the population behind
them.

>  While the racist and ethnocentric nature of the
>separatist movement is why I'm against it, the fact that the current PQ
>government seems willing to flout the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (our
>equivalent of your Bill of Rights) and the rule of law doesn't make me
>think any more highly of them.

   With the Anglophile population of Quebec shrinking, the day of
reckoning is approaching. 

>        However, should the PQ government eventually manage to negotiate
>their way out of Confederation in a manner that respects the rule of law
>and Canada's national interests, I will willingly accept that result; it'd
>be a very Canadian solution, arrived at in a democratic manner.

   Again a very *foreign* concept to Americans.  States in the U.S.
became states because the population voted the join the union. 
Membership in the U.S. is forever--no provision is made for secession.

   As for a "very Canadian solution", it might be very Canadian, but it
would be in Canada's best interest.  No Quebec effective means no
Canada, or at least the pieces that are left would be sorely tempted to
make "other arrangements" concerning their central government.  My
understanding is that the Atlantic coast provinces have already decided
to petition the U.S. to join--is this true?

>        So basically, and here comes the ObTrav, you shouldn't assume that
>all countries or political units in Trav are put together and hang together
>like the US; I'm sure that out there in the Imperium there are loose
>confederations of smaller political units that hold together because it
>make political and economic sense.  

   You pretty much are describing the Solomani Confederation, at least
as described in Solomani and Aslan.

>Basically, politics in Traveller should hopefully transcend the dreaded 
>"Yanks in Space" syndrome :).

   As has been stated previously, Traveller and Marc Miller's Traveller
have been written by Americans for a predominately American audience. 
It is only natural that there would be a certain amount of bias
involved.  On the other hand, look at some of the alternative goverments
that have been established: the Terran Republic for the New Era milieu,
the K'Kree, the Federation of Arden, etc.  These show alternatives to
the "Yanks In Space" syndrome you are complaining about.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 6: Contest Announcement: Low-Tech SDB

The ISBA (and the Third Imperium) step aside this month, and a
hard-pressed pocket empire somewhere on the fringes of Imperial space
takes center stage...

***

[Excerpted from an official document released to Kaneshi shipbuilding
concerns by the Kanesh Chartered Guild of Shipwrights (KCGS), local date
Makan IV:33 Upper (Imperial 117-23).  The document carried the Autarch's
personal seal.]

Brave companions in our shared triumph!

We, the Council of Nine of the Shipwright's Guild, salute you!  Your
perseverence and dedication, your ceaseless toil on behalf of our beloved
Empire, are the shield and the sword which stand between our precious
realm and the barbarians beyond, eager to tear down all we have built, all
we hold most dear. 

[19k omitted.]

Thus, at the personal command of our beloved Autarch Zomaiir III, we
request your proposals for a vessel meeting the following requirements. 

The vessel will form the cornerstone of permanent in-system defense in the
key systems of our Empire.  Its size must be in the range 500 to 1000
displacement tons, and it should not be jump-capable.  It must be capable
of independent and covert 'guerrilla' operation (e.g., lurking in a gas
giant's atmosphere and pouncing on refueling vessels); it must also have
superior sensor capabilities in order to serve in an 'early warning'
picket role.  Maneuver capability and armaments should be consistent with
the vessel's role as a last line of defense against invading fleets. 

All components must be of Kaneshi manufacture, in order to ensure spare
parts are available locally in the event of war.

[The Kaneshi Empire is at TL 10.]

Noble colleagues, skilled shipwrights, honored citizens of our Empire --
heed our Autarch's call!  The rewards of success will be great.

***

Welcome to THUDDD meets Pocket Empires. :)  This info, along with new
rules clarifications and other useful stuff, will appear on the THUDDD
website soon.  Meanwhile, just keep in mind that the primary concern of
the Autarch is price...Kanesh is not a rich PE, and squeezing maximum bang
out of minimum bucks is the key to winning this contract.  To this end,
each contestant should list how many vessels of the proposed design can be
purchased for 10 gigacredits -- include this value with the 'header'
design data.  If you can credibly provide peacetime roles for the design
(e.g., Coast Guard-like duties, in-system transports, or whatever), all
the better...but the primary mission is detecting and destroying invading
starships, and nothing else should interfere with this. 

FFS2 *will* be a valid design system for this THUDDD, along with all the
earlier systems.  Judges should take into account differences (especially
in sensor performance) between FFS2 and the earlier systems.

As usual, all entries should be sent to me at cberry@cinenet.net.  The
schedule for THUDDD 6 is:

  Wed 8/06:  Announcement released
  Wed 8/20:  Entry deadline
  Fri 8/22:  Designs and ballots released
  Fri 8/29:  Voting deadline
  Sun 8/31:  Results announced

Gentlebeings, start your spreadsheets!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:17:21 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)

Hi there

Please, could we just lose the Canadian/USA
governmental/social/economic system comparison or whatever it is?  I
don't know if most of the posts had anything to say relevant to Trav,
because I gave up reading them.  This is th stuff of private email, or
perhaps there is a Rant on About America Mailing List somewhere?  This
isn't intended as a flame, just a request.

Thanks

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 04:19:08 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Marc Miller writes:

>I agree.
>
>Marc
>
>Draft Outline.
>* Introduction
>* Setting
>* Characters
>* Mechanics
>* The Solar System
>* Vehicles and Equipment
>* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
>drive and the Vilani.
>
>What else?

   Referee's Section - The real story behind first contact with the
Vilani.  We would almost certainly have overheard their prescence so
nearby by the mid-21st century, and they were probably vaguely aware
that we are here as well.

1) Who knew and when did they know it?

2) What preparations were made on Terra for our first face-to-face encounter?

3) Why didn't the Vilani just absorb us?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1657
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1658



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Anti-Rodge?
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re: Thruster Plates (was Re: Laser Whomp)
Slightly more Trav than Oh! Canada
Re: Second Careers
Re: Second Careers
Computer storage
Auction Update #10: RPG Item (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)
Re: THUDDD 6
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re:  OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:14:50 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Anti-Rodge?

>Yo Folks,
>
>Since my original message declaiming Roger Sanger's disservice to the
>DGP material I've received a number of supportive messages. Rather
>than just take that as a private confirmation of what I feel I'd like
>to turn it into a market force whereby we can, hopefully, pursuade him
>to take action.  To this end I've created a petition and placed it on
>the web. I'd ask = each of you who would like to see the DGP material
>back in publication to visit the page,
>http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/dgp, and sign it. There is plenty of
>space on the form for additional comments.
>    The text of the petition is as follows:
>
>"Given the high esteem in which these works are held by the player
>community, Mr. Sanger's inactivity is an insult to the people who
>originally produced them. We, the undersigned, roundly chastise Roger
>Sanger for sitting on these and call upon him to

Well, I think Roger Sanger answered this pretty directly. I have to
ask: Did the petition writer bother to get some sort of explanation
from Roger before setting about dissing him?  The tone of the original
email and the petition smack of personal animosity, and if this isn't
the case then please revise your manner!  Frankly, my gut reaction to
all this was "what a crock of sh*te", and looking at the comments of
the petitioners, I think most would agree.

It doesn't seem to be a matter of "giving Roger a chance" or "giving
Roger stick" but perhaps finding out what is really going on before
flying off the handle. Perhaps someone from IG or FFE would like to
confirm/deny Roger's assertions - or perhaps not!

Thanks

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 04:12:49 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Glenn Hoppe writes:

>My comments are not intended to flame, merely to point out that certain
>"American Values" are not widely held by the rest of the continent. I
>respect the point of view of others, but I don't always agree...

   I for one have never believed that the American Way is the only way,
or even the best way for everybody.  However, it does seem to possess
certain advantages over many other forms of governing and living.

>Also note, that my point of view comes from who I am, and where I come
>from. If I were constantly faced with violence, I *might* have different
>opinions. Or, I might not, and have my life violently ended in
>martyrdom. Thank God I haven't yet had much cause to worry about it
>(yet)...

   It is in our nature to be violent as circumstances demand.  For
everyone who claims to be a passivist, I can usually construct a senario
in which they pull the trigger.  Ghandi (the ultimate advocate of
passivism and passive resistance) was a *highly* unusual man living in
highly unusual circumstances.  It is doubtful that his methods would
have worked against the likes of Hitler, Stalin, or Mussolini. 

>Weeeelll... It depends how one defines "stability". Sure, countries like
>US and Japan have a relatively stable *political* structure, but Glenn
>here is talking about *social* structure. I would argue that the social
>stability of US & Japan fall somewhere near the bottom, and the cause
>can be attributed to rapidly changing technology. ie. upheavals in the
>workforce and family.

   The social structure of the U.S. is still sorting itself out from the
massive upheavals that occured in the 1960s, however, I would argue that
it is far more stable now than it was 20 years ago.  Also, the changes
in the U.S. were due to *economic* changes, not so much technological.

   In the case of Japan, social problems there caused by technology go
back to the 19th century, and also appear to be disappearing over time,
however, new social problems associated with declining birth rates and
economic changes loom on the horizon.

>Tech changes aren't always bad, imho rapid tech advancement at all
>costs, without regard to consequences, rapid development without study
>of impact (environmental and social) is almost *always* a bad thing.

   I don't know that outside of a purely philosophical discussion, much
has occurred in that regard.  Only recently did cloning come up for some
knee-jerk reaction by politicians here in the U.S. (and some modest
intellectual discussion here and there).  *Ideally* those in charge of
developing new technology think ahead about what it all means in the big
picture, but unless you want to go to the Vilani method, I don't see
central control of tech development being all that feasible or wise.

>And this is where *my* beliefs diverge from those of Hollywood. (and
>those of the American people, as you imply) Violence begets violence, it
>does not solve it.

   Someone had to stop Hitler.  No one (or should I say 0.0001 percent
of the population) believed that Hitler and the Nazis Party could be
convinced in 1939 to withdraw their forces from Poland, free all
political prisioners, and surrender control of Germany to proper
authorities.  That's why WW II had to be fought.  It would have been
*wonderful* if Hitler could have been taken out early on and his
movement died before it could wreak havoc, but when you've got a madman
with a large number of armed body guards, that isn't always an option.

>It is my perception that more "messes" are made when households stock
>their own firearms. Not having a whackload of statistics to back my
>claim, I would just like to caution that there are certain risks that
>one takes when one keeps a firearm. Is it *really* safer?

   When there is an effort in the community to train people in the
proper use of firearms, and ownership of said firearms is tolerated,
crime in general (not just violent crime) declines dramatically--without
any significant increase in accidental gun deaths (if anything these
also decline).  Note I said *trained*.  I would not want anyone to own a
firearm unless they had received proper training on how to use and store
it.  Ownership of weapons in the U.S. may be a right, but with that
right comes a heavy *responsibility* to use them in a proper manner.

>>> >If America dies, it will die in violence.
>>
>>    If America dies, it will be because the majority of people would
>> rather have the government take care of them instead of taking care of
>> themselves.  America is a set of ideas more than a set of borders.  When
>> those ideas die, America will go with them.
>
>Actually, I take the opposite view. If America dies, it will because a
>minority becomes overcome by a conspirational fervor, and believes that
>government is "out to get them" "oppress the people" and take away their
>"God given rights and freedoms". The countryside becomes fractured by
>guerrilla fighting, cities become staging grounds for terrorist attacks.
>I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

   It sounds as though you've been watching too much "Clinton News
Network" aka CNN.  Oh sure, there are a few nutcases here and there, but
even the so-called "militia movements" consists of a bunch of basically
law-abiding people concerned about civil liberties.  Americans have far
more to fear from people who blow the threat of so-called "right-wing
terrorism" out of proportion and then take away freedoms in the name of
"national security".

>America will die when it forgets their Government is "of the people, for
>the people, and by the people." 

   Amen.

>What would be gained, if the *people* of Quebec (not current government)
>desired to "secede" and TROC (the rest of Canada) decided to call up
>arms and not let them?
>
>Scenario #1: Quebec declares independance. Canada balks. War declared.
>Economic and political instability ensues. People Die. USA intervenes.
>(Don't tell me you wouldn't, your largest trading partner fractures and
>starts fighting on your border...) Quebec's nationalism increases and
>becomes more militant. France gets involved. Things get *really* messy.
>Devolution into a Northern Ireland-like situation, or a more global
>conflict ensues...

   It's *war*, not a football match, of course people are going to die
(offer excludes England).  During the American Civil War, Atlanta,
Richmond, and countless small towns and villages were burned.  You can
expect similar results in Quebec (Montreal wouldn't be a good place to
invest in real estate).  The U.S. would probably not intervene--at least
not right away.  We would probably wait to see what the outcome of the
initial fighting brings about.  American troops would first be deployed
to New York and New England, but they would only be there to ensure that
some Quebec unit trying to run away from the Unionists doesn't stray
into some small town in Vermont and shoot up the place.

   As for France, I wouldn't worry.  Not even the French are stupid
enough to send arms and other supplies to Quebec.  The Monroe Doctrine
is still very much in place, thank you very much, and the French
ambassador to the U.S. would be reminded of this fact.

   U.S. troops would most likely be brought in as peacekeeping troops at
the request of the Canadian government as the conflict came to an end
(or in the unlikely event the Unionists lose, at the request of the
United Nations).  Sure, there would be a period of guerilla warfare
afterward, but if things are handled properly, this would eventually
end.

>Scenario #2: Quebec declares independance. Much political and legal
>wrangling over what Quebec can and cannot do. How much of the national
>debt do they assume? How much territory? (northern QC does *not* want to
>separate, being mostly populated by First Nations peoples) Economic
>instability. Both parties agree to take their grievances to Hague for
>consideration... Separation terms are established, and Quebec becomes an
>independant entity in a Canadian EC-esque economic federation. BC sees
>the plum deal and wants out too... 

   Within five years the other Atlantic coast provinces opt out and join
the U.S., as a increasingly isolationist and hostile Quebec makes it
difficult for the central government on maintain contact with its
eastern fringe.  These would be followed by BC and some of the other
western provinces, who could go toward total independence or also
joining the U.S.  The new "rump" country of Canada is now virtually
landlocked and on the verge of lossing its national identity.

>Sorry for the increasingly off-topic rant. Won't happen again.

   Actually all this ties into our discussion of the 21st Century
Milieu.  Things should be coming to a head in Quebec within the next 10
years or so, and it would be good to have the political background stuff
worked out ahead of time.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 02:21:25 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Thruster Plates (was Re: Laser Whomp)

James Lindsay wrote

 William F. Hostman wrote:

[snip]

> > And also insures that I will not buy FF&S2. At least not new. T4 keeps
> > changing the mechanics of the UNIVERSE... (t'were me big complaint bout
> > TNE's lack of T-Plates).
> 
> This is a poor example.  I find more realism in ultra efficient HEPlaR
> drives than nonsensical "Thruster Plates".  HEPlaR is at least
> possible using today's theories and technology.  Which one requires
> the MOST hand-waving? :)

Although he is certainly capable of speaking for himself [a subject our
long in person arguments/discussions about Traveller prove] I believe
what he is protesting here (and I agree) is that in CT and TNE ships had
thruster plates.  In TNE they did not have thruster plates
_and_we_were_supposed_to_believe_they_never_did_, thus canon was
changed.  I happen to agree that HEPlaR is somewhat more plausible using
current understanding of technology than thruster plates were _but_
HEPlaR instead of thruster plates was a big change in technological
history continuity for no more reason than the fact that the TNE people
wanted it to be that way.  

TNE changed the Imperium in a way that I was not wild at at first
(virus) but it did not go around saying "No, that never happened, there
never was an Imperium." it just said the Imperium fell apart because of
virus.  But when they stuck in HEPlaR instead of thruster plates they
_were_saying_ "No, it never happened, there never were thruster plates."
This was unneeded [IMNSHO]. When TNE's FFS 1 explained how traveller
ships used gravity focusing on their lasers because otherwise you would
need laser apperture disks 90 m wide to fire at the ranges traveller
ships could they were using science in a good way, to semiscientifically
explain previos canon (small laser dishes and long range combat).  When
T4 said that ships could have either HEPlaR or (at higher TL's) thruster
plates they were explaining previous canon (CT & MT's thruster plates &
TNE's HEPlaR)in a good way.

Change the year of the setting all you want (if you can get a good story
out of it) (TNE was set later and T4 is set earlier than) CT and MT but
don't change canon unless you have both 1) a _very_ good reason AND 2)
it is minimal change or reinterpretation rather than a "No that never
happened."  For example the current efforts to get the star generation
system fixed are a good example of a needed change.  Current astronomic
knowledge demands that we get rid of all these habitable traveller
planets aroung dim type M starssince it could never happen that way in
nature and it will only minimally affect canon if we do so since CT, MT,
and TNE never made a big deal out of the spectral types of the stars its
world orbited.  They mentioned it but it was almost never _important_.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:37:27
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Slightly more Trav than Oh! Canada

All this stuff on Quebecious seperatism reminded me of a great story
from the time of the US Civil War.

The CSS Shenendoah, a commerce raider, had docked in the port of
Melbourne, in the then-British colony of Victoria. At the time, 
Melbourne was entirely undefended, having no shore defenses, Royal
Navy ships or anything else.

Never the less, the main Melbourne newspaper, the Age (www.theage.com.au ...
still a damn good read) wrote an editorial calling for the Governor
to commission a naval vessel to put a shot across the Shenandoah's
hull and demand it leave port (the Age's editors were strongly pro-Union 
and anti-slavery).

What makes it very Trav was that they envisioned a rowboat containing
six men and a rifle be used, on the grounds that should the Shenandoah
return fire, then the entire force of the RN could be brought against
the Confederacy, making life interesting and short for blockade runners
among others.

I can see similar events happening in the 3I, with a air raft crewed by four 
desperadoes and a Naval Officer with a laser rifle and an newly-written 
authority from  the local governor closing in one some pocket empire's
battlewagon, demanding it withdraw from Imperial Space, or face the full
wrath of the Imperial Navy ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 02:59:02 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

Sam Thomas wrote

>Steve Daniels wrote:

> > The T4 text says [snip] in paragragh 3, column 1, page 22:  "During
> >character generation, when a Traveller character leaves a career for > >any
> >reason, he may choose to pursue a different one, going through the
> >enlistment process all over again.  There is a penalty for doing  this,
> >however.  The enlistment roll for a second career is subject to a DM of
> >-2, for a third career it is a DM of -3, and so on.  All other DMs,
> >qualifications, and preferences apply."
> 
> Yes but under Preferential Enlistment: if two qualifying  characteristics at
> least two points above the number necessary for the enlistment  difficulty
> modifier may *Automatically* enlist in the career, without making any > roll....
> 
> So here what you do enlist in first career boost the stats to auto get > you
> into the second career, boost stats again and enlist in third career  and so
> on. The minus dm for second and beyond careers is null and void.

Yes but "entrance is automatic" could also be interpreted as "entrance
on a roll of 12 or less than the negative DM's would matter.  In
addition if you disalow choice of advance it becomes harder to raise
attributes enough to automatically qualify.

I would errata it to say that automatic enlistment is only allowed in
the first career _or_ that the negative DM is also a negative DM to the
attributes required for bonuses to enlistment (and thus for automatic
entry).  For example under T4 entering the Navy has DM's for INT 8+ and
EDU 9+ therefore is automatic at INT 10+ and EDU 11+.  If the later
career negative DM's were used here in your third career you would need
INT 10+ to get a +1 bonus to enlistment roll or EDU 11+ to get a +2
bonus and INT 12+ and EDU 13+ for automatic entrance into the Navy (-2
DM to each).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:03:54 +0000
From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> wrote:

>A character may also change careers and begin a new career in a 
>different field. After mustering out of his or her first career, the 
>character may attempt the entire career process in a new field.

This raises a point that seemed unclear in T4 - the new career starts 
AFTER mustering out from the old career.  So what happens about 
mustering out benefits, specifically starships?  The only reasonable 
courses of action that I have found are to say to the players either:

1) 'OK, you've rolled a starship.  Now you can either keep the ship
and start adventuring, or re-roll and start another career.'

OR

2) 'OK, you've rolled a starship.  You don't actually get it now, but 
when you start adventuring you'll have it, and the reason will be 
something to do with this career you've just left.  Think up 
something good.'

What do other people do?  What does Marc suggest?

Martin
Martin Pickett 
ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are alive, well and living on Sylea 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:18:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Computer storage

Here's an interesting argument for *lots* of computer storage in
ships, Xboats, etc...

[re-mailed to you from rec.arts.sf.science]
[the original seemed to come from d92-jfo@nada.kth.remove.this.se]

Carl Perkins wrote:
> 
[How much memory do you need?]
> Eventually, it should reach a point when enough really is enough.  I
> suspect that 15 petabytes in a floppy sized package would qualify, at
> least for portable storage.

Just a small counterargument:
Some graphics people believe that voxel graphics (that is, 3d pixels,
little cubes filling space) will replace current 2d and 3d techniques
just as raster graphics once replaced vector screens.

One 4000x4000x4000x32 bit image will then take up 256 GB.
Suppose you want to do an animation? 100 fps yields 25.6 TB/s.
That's 40 seconds per PB. And so your storage media would only
hold 600 seconds, or ten minutes of video (unpacked).

I realise this argument is a tad extreme, but at least it shows
that there will always be applications that use more storage than
you have... 

- -- 
<--/---\------76-cols-----------------^-----Your-Name-Here----Something---->
 / Small*<-Perth  Make Your Very   4 rows email@address.here witty some
/  Ascii  \     Own Signature File!   |    Profession Here    dead guy
\ Picture /   Follow The Instructions v  Other Personal Info  said here
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 07:12:51 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #10: RPG Item (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Rules:   Update 8/7/97  -  07:00 EDT         

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) going x1

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x1
        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
        

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        $27.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x1
        $25.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $22.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $20.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com (8/5) going x1
        $35.00 cgriffen@cisco.com 
        $34.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $30.00 teflonkid@voyager.net
        
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com (8/6)
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu 

Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5) going x1

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net (8/5) going x1

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 4.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de
        $ 3.00 EugHarvey@aol.com 

TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5) going x1
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        

TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $15.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/5) going x1
        $15.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com (8/5) going x1

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $ 7.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7)      
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 6.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 5.00 stackmc@aol.com


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5) going x1

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (8/7)
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x1
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                       
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
                
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/5) going x1
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x1
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5) going x1

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $10.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/5) going x1
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6

  One minor issue I'd like to check on is the cost of missiles.  In QSDS,
there are no costs given for the missiles themselves, just for the
launchers, at least as far as I can tell.  Could someone point me to this
info (no, I don't have Starships with me here in Denmark) or perhaps post
the relevant data somewhere.

  Now, you might ask why I ask.  Well, browsing the Traveller web ring, I
came across a description of a campaign some folks ran that involved
defending a system from succesive attacks by Vampire ships in a TNE
setting (sorry I can't remeber the url of the site).  I don't recall the
tech level, but the player defending the system soon found that missiles
for reloads were really expensive, and that beam weapons of one sort or
another made more sense.  I thought this might be the sort of logic a
strapped-for-cash pocket empire might be interested in.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:49:19 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Harold Hale wrote:

>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:
>
>>        I think you're encountering a fundamental difference between the
>>U.S. and the Canadian conception of their respective statehoods.  Canada is
[snippage]
>
>   Such thinking is foreign to Americans.  While we have our share of
>regional and even state rivalries (Ohio, for example, has a long running
>feud with Michigan to the north and Kentucky to the south over seperate
>border disputes), after 1865 these never get to the point of troop
>mobilizations.  Ultimate Federal authority is unquestioned, though
>admittedly this doesn't stop certain states from grumbling when they
>feel the Federal government is imposing burdensome demands.  From our
>perspective, the American Civil War was as bloody as it was because
>regional issues were allowed to take prescedent over national interest.
>We have no desire to let that happen again.
[snip]

	While I have responded to Harold privately, I won't do so to the
list because the Traveller content is getting kinda low and people are
getting grumpy.  Anyone else wants to read what I had to say to Harold, let
me know and I'll forward it to you.

	And point taken wrt the various Trav political entities he
mentioned; I was unfamiliar with the older materials and so was unaware of
several of them.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 03:46:01 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:  OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 

Harold Hale wrote

> Roderick Darroch Elliott writes: 
> 
> >        I think you're encountering a fundamental difference between the
> >U.S. and the Canadian conception of their respective statehoods.  
[Snip]
> > The provinces came together because it
> >was mutually advantageous; it makes a certain amount of sense to allow them
> >to leave, on fair terms that are acceptable to all Canadians, if the deal
> >sours.
> 
>    Such thinking is foreign to Americans.  While we have our share of
> regional and even state rivalries (Ohio, for example, has a long running
> feud with Michigan to the north and Kentucky to the south over seperate
> border disputes), after 1865 these never get to the point of troop
> mobilizations.  Ultimate Federal authority is unquestioned, though
> admittedly this doesn't stop certain states from grumbling when they
> feel the Federal government is imposing burdensome demands.  From our
> perspective, the American Civil War was as bloody as it was because
> regional issues were allowed to take prescedent over national interest. 

This is a bit inacurate.  If you mean that rivalry between the states
has not resulted in troop hobilizations since 1865 I believe you are
correct. If you mean ultimate federal authority is not questioned by the
_states_ to the point of mobilizing troops you are ignoring various
charming events (occuring mostly in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's) that
were part of the oppostion to the Civil Rights movement. Perhaps some of
you out there recall George Wallace standing in the doorway to the
University of Missippi and sying (basically) that this is a white
university and will stay one.

 If you mean ultimate federal authority over the states is unquestioned
in general by the _states_ you are ignoring vast ammounts of legal
precedent in which the states sue the Federal government and say "You
can't do that because you do not have the Constitutional right to do
so."  Lately the Supreme Court has been backing them up (sometimes). 
Something about the 10th Ammendment I believe....

"Article [X.] 

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to
the people."

US Constitution Ammendment 10

If you mean that the federal government authority to do so is not
questioned by the _people_ that depends on which people you are refering
to.  I realize that this is off topic but I can assure that I do
consider that the federal government has the authority to do so. In my
not so humble opinion the North acted in a way that was blatantly
illegal and Lincoln violated the US Constitution in an unforgivable
way.  Moreover I would like to point out that neither historians nor
Americans in general agree that 

> "From our perspective, the American Civil War was as bloody as it was > because regional issues were allowed to take prescedent over national > interest." 

I would suggest that the American Civil War (alternately The War Between
The States) occured because the North illegally attempted to prohibit
the southern states from leaving _As_was_their_right_to_do_so [IMNSHO].

(If you disagree the proof I require to convince me otherwise would
consist of words in the US Constittion (circa 1861) saying that states
do not have the right to secede and _NO_ such text exists.  The 10th
Ammendment once again applies - the power to stop states from leaving
was not reserved for the federal government and therefore it was
reserved to the states.)

> We have no desire to let that happen again.

You're not from the South I take it :)


> >        So basically, and here comes the ObTrav, you shouldn't assume that
> >all countries or political units in Trav are put together and hang together
> >like the US; I'm sure that out there in the Imperium there are loose
> >confederations of smaller political units that hold together because it
> >make political and economic sense. 

Also ObTrav - Nor should we assume that governments are now constituted
as they were one or two hundred years ago.  Nor should we assume that
the popular view of the "legitemacy" of a government (whether Imperial
or US Federal) is correct. 

>    You pretty much are describing the Solomani Confederation, at least
> as described in Solomani and Aslan.

Yes and I have always found it strange that more Traveller players are
not more sympathetic towards the Solomani.  After all almost all
Traveller players are 100% Solomani. 
 
P.S. Where can I get my  Solomani Party membership card ? :)  

Peter Newman - Alaskan by choice, Texan by grace of birth :)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1658
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1659



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Corsair deckplans
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Laser Grav Pulse???
Re: Deckplans and Visio?
Anti-Rodge? (long, flamewar warning)
The Interstellar Wars
Re: Solomani Sympathisers (was: OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
LS: Dan Yaws - Your E-mail is only one way
Winmail.dat and Outlook
Re: Second Careers
Re: T4 Hydrographic Roll
Re: T: 3I & Separation
Vilani First Contact
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re: Laser Whomp
Re: Blue Planet
re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)
RE: Laser Grav Pulse???

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:20:18 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Corsair deckplans

Yes, I would like to see them.

Eric Freitas
Class 1
607 NW 27th Ave
Ocala  FL  34475
USA

edf@atlantic.net
ph: 352 629 5020


- ----------
> From: Mark Seemann <mark@dk-online.dk>
> The deckplans are fairly datailed and my players are quite happy about
it.
> Would people be interested in seeing them?
> 
> Mark Seemann
> mark@dk-online.dk
> http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:52:17 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

>Yes, I know.  But the basic emission sig has to to with PP output,
>not size, and HEPlaR is an emissive sig.
>
>-Merrick

Actually the emissive sig for thrusters, PP etc should be calculated
separately and the largest one used. The current rules are simplified for
playability(?) compared to my original homebrew upon which these rules are
somewhat derived.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:49:27 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Laser Grav Pulse???

>What Whommp? The gravitic effects of a grav-focused laser should be
>localized to the Firing end only... I thought it uses the gravitics as a
>lens, not a confinement beam... based solely upon FF&S 1. I can't see a
>canfinement beam until TL16+, based upon the established TL's for tractors
>and Repulsors... Besides, Gravitics are OBVIOUSLY some kind of field
>effect.
>
>William F. Hostman
><Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

Nope, some guys smarter than me figured that the only way to do it without
involving black hole style gravitics (pretty nasty weapons) would be to
fire a gravity soliton along the beam that would interact with the photons
all the way to the target.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 14:56:40 +0200
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Visio?

dump one copy to me if you have the time. Stuff like that you can't get
enough of.

Goran




At 00:38 1997-08-07 -0400, you wrote:
>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> I've created a Visio 4.0 template for some some common rooms and fixtures
>> that would be on deckplans. It's almost 500k, so I won't send it to the
>> list, but if anybody wants a copy let me know.
>
>   Damn netiquette, full speed ahead...  
>
>   Me too!  Me too!!  Me Too!!!
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:56:22 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Anti-Rodge? (long, flamewar warning)

>>Yo Folks,
>>
>>Since my original message declaiming Roger Sanger's disservice to the
>>DGP material I've received a number of supportive messages.
[snip]
>Frankly, my gut reaction to
>all this was "what a crock of sh*te", and looking at the comments of
>the petitioners, I think most would agree.

(sigh) well, I hope this doesn't degrade into a flamewar or anything, but
here I go;

Well, Stewart, as one of the petitioners and, like you I think, a long time
member of this electronic Traveller community, I have to completely
disagree with your position.

Roger has held license to the DGP material for a long time.  In fact, he
has had that license through three different Traveller management teams
(GDW, IG under Whitman, and the current "regime").  I will not repeat what
rumors I have heard, instead I will simply point out the possibilities
1). IG is not allowing him to reprint the materials (as Roger has implied),
2). he has not done anything about publishing the materials himself.

if (1) is the case we must ask ourselves if Courtney Solomon or Marc Miller
(Both of whom would have to agree, as I understand it) might not have a
reason for this.  I would suggest that the reason is that Roger *has yet to
prove he can produce any gaming product at all!*  This is in spite of
various efforts to do so.  It is also possible that Courtney or Marc are
afraid that the DGP material would compete for dollars with new T4
material.  I think this is relatively resonable too, although I might not
like it.  In this case Jo Grant's petition is a means of 'asking' Roger to
give up or sell the rights to DGP's traveller material.  Perhaps not the
friendliest method, but this is the 'net after all.

if (2) is the case, then the petition is perfectly justified.

 I was involved in an effort which Roger initiated a few years ago,
starting with a message to this mailing list (or it's direct predecessor,
if you wish) inviting participation.  I found that project to be thoroughly
disorganized, and the effort he was undertaking seemed more aimed at petty
empire building than serious game design.  Perhaps it was a learning
experience for him, but it left me with a poor impression.  If this
impression is incorrect, them I'm sorry that I took it as such, but it is
the basis for my signing the petition and my basis for believing the things
stated above.

Roger's message redirected us to another product - non-traveller - which
DGP is apparently working on.  I will consider it Vaporware until it is
actually published, but perhaps that is the sign IG will need to allow
Roger to proceed.

I have nothing against Roger personally.  I simply do not believe he would
"do it right" similar to the way that Ken Whitman fell short in certain
areas.  I still like Ken (I met him at GenCon and spoke on the phone
several times) but I really feel the change in management was best for him
and IG.  Similarly, without regard to Roger's personality or other
unrelated factors (of which I have no knowlege anyway), I do not think
Roger's republishing the DGP material is the best thing to do with that
material.

Naturally I am simply expressing my opinion, no hurtful comments or angry
retorts expressed or implied, nor would such be welcomed in return.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:00:13 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: The Interstellar Wars

The talk of M:E21 has prompted me to think about the Interstellar Wars
(actually this has been in the back of my mind for a while). I gone
through my Traveller library to find what I know about the Interstellar
Wars with the aim of producing a hypothetical Interstellar War sourcebook.
So far this is what I've found:

The first war lasted from -2408 to -2400, this was followed by eight
more distinct numbered wars (2nd through 9th) and then the Nth (-2235
to -2210). If one regards the Nth as simply one war, this gives 10 wars
over a 198 year period.

The Terrans won the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 8th and 9th Wars (and the Nth of
course); no mention of who won the 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th Wars. The 1st War
was fought by the independent nations of Terra, under the loose control of
the UN. After the 1st War the Terrans brought all their forces under a
single strong central command. The 2nd through 7th were fought mainly in the
Dingir and Sol subsectors (early wars in the Sol Subsector, later wars in
Dingir), the Barnard and Fenris systems were crucial points during the early
wars and were fiercely contested. The 8th War involved a very successful
Terran offensive into the Albadawi Subsector, and resulted in the Vilani
ceding all worlds rimward of Vega to the Terrans. The 9th War involved saw
the Vilani central government deploy significant forces for the first time,
but they were defeated due to the Terran's invention of jump 3 drives and
meson guns and the Vilani lost the entire sector. The Vilani were at TL 11
through out the wars. At the start of the 1st War the Terrans were at TL 9,
at the end of the 1st War they were at TL 10, two years after that they were
at TL 11 (equal to the Vilani). The Terrans started moving into TL 12 just
11 years after the end of the 1st War, but did not fully reach it until the
9th War.

So heres my highly unofficial "brief" summary of the 1st to 9th Interstellar
Wars.

First Interstellar War (2118AD to 2126AD)
The war started accidentaly over a minor incident on Barnard. Initially the
Vilani provincial government paid little attention to it, deploying minor
forces to contain the Terrans. The Terrans however were throwing everything
they had into the fight. The Terrans quickly expelled the Vilani from
Barnard and it settled down to an attritional battle as the Vilani attempted
to break the Terran perimeter at Barnard and Fenris. However the Vilani
underestimated the Terrans and never committed sufficent forces to break the
perimeter. During the war the Terrans launched many deep penetration raids
into the Vilani Imperium resulting in significant economic dislocation.
The Vilani governor, concerned at the continuing drain on the economy of the
war made peace in 2126AD, recognising Terran control of Barnard.

Second Interstellar War (2145AD to 2150AD)
A new Vilani provincial governor launched a suprise offensive aimed at
regaining Barnard. However the Vilani had seriously underestimated Terran
strength. The Terrans had by know equalled the Vilani technologically and
brought their forces under a single central command. The initial offensive
was easily contained and in 2147AD, the Terrans launched a counter-offensive
at Agidda. The Vilani response was difficent and the Terrans captured Agidda
in 2148AD. The Terrans followed up their success at Agidda with an attack on
Nusku. The local Vilani forces put up a heroic resistance here and the
Terrans were stalled. The Vilani then launched a counter-offensive aimed at
Fenris, but this was defeated with some difficulty by the Terrans (having
suffered heavy loses at Nusku). Again throughout the war, the Terrans
launched many deep penetration raids into Vilani space; and  with the war
stalemated, the Vilani made peace in 2150AD, ceding Agidda to the Terrans.

Third Interstellar War (2154AD to 2166AD)
The Vilani governor, severly humiliated by the Terran victory in the 2nd War,
launched simultanious offensives aimed at Fenris and Agidda. The thrust at
Fenris was held with some difficulty, but the Agidda offensive was successful
and the Terrans were forced back to Barnard. Barnard fell to the Vilani in
2156AD and the Vilani moved to attack Terra directly in early 2157AD. This
proved to be a miscalculation on the part of the Vilani, as it incited near
fanatical resistance in the Terrans. The Vilani were defeated and forced from
Terra in mid 2156AD with heavy losses. By this stage both sides had suffered
severe loses and paused to regroup. This phoney war period lasted until late
2159AD when the Vilani (reinforced by central government troops for the first
time) again attacked Fenris. Whilst not able to take Fenris, the Vilani were
successful in besieging it and moving on to attack Junction in the middle of
2160AD. The battle of Junction was the turning point of the 3rd War. The
Vilani Fleet was defeated and scattered in late 2160AD and the Terrans moved
on to lift the seige of Fenris in 2161AD. In mid 2161AD the Terrans launched a
diversionary attack at Barnard. The diversion was successful and the Vilani
diverted significant forces to hold Barnard. In early 2162AD the Terrans
launched their major offensive at Sirus. With most of their forces tied up
at Barnard, the Vilani were woefully unprepared for this attack. In little
more than 18 months the Terrans had seized Sirus, Shulimik, Iilike and
Markhash. The Terrans then transfered the weight of their forces to the
Barnard Front; and quickly recaptured both Barnard and Agidda. In early 2166AD
the Vilani provincial governor was replaced and the Vilani made peace ceding
the Sol Subsector to the Terrans.

Fourth Interstellar War (2185AD to 2191AD)
An uneasy period of peace followed the 3rd War. However the Terrans allowed
their defences to run down during the interwar period. In 2185AD the Vilani
launched an attack at Nusku. The Terran defences proved inadequate and the
world was quickly overun. Rather than turn towards the heart of the
Confederation, the Vilani chose to drive to liberate Ishimshulgi and Lagash.
The drive was successful and by 2186AD the Terrans had lost both worlds. The
Vilani then turned their attentions towards the Terran worlds in the Dingir
Subsector and attacked Iilike in 2187AD. By this stage the Terrans had rebuilt
their forces and successfully held the Vilani at Iilike. The war then bogged
down into an attritional fight around the Terran perimeter at Iilike and
Agidda. With the usual long range Terran raids into the Vilani Empire, this
form of warfare proved to be to costly for the Vilani to sustain. In 2191AD
a negotiated settlement was reached with the Vilani regaining the Coreward
portion of the Sol Subsector.

Fifth Interstellar War (2203AD to 2213AD)
Still smarting from their defeat in the 4th War, the Terrans launched an
attack aimed at retaking the worlds lost in that war. The Terran strategy was
not however aimed at directly reconquering the worlds, rather isolating them
and reducing them at leisure. The initial Terran target was Nusku which fell
after a brief siege. Then rather than turn to trailing as the Vilani expected,
the Terrans drove into the Dingir Subsector taking Apishal and Zaggisi in
2203AD, thereby establishing a strong defensive position. Only then did the
Terrans turn their attentions on the Coreward worlds in the Sol Subsector.
Whilst holding of the Vilani in Dingir, the Terrans reduced these worlds one
by one over the next 3 years. During this period, the Vilani launched a
number counter-offensives aimed at relieving their posestions in the Sol
Subsector. However the Terrans held off each one (albeit with some difficulty).
With the Sol Subsector secure, the Terrans turned again to Dingir. In 2207AD
they moved against Shuruppak and Meshan. Both these worlds fell with little
struggle and the Terrans drove deeper into Dingir. However they were now
starting to overreach themselves. In 2210AD the Terrans reached Kinunir. Their
defeat at the Battle of Kinunir marked the high water mark of the Terran
advance in the 5th War. Over the course of the next 3 years the Vilani
gradually pushed the Terrans back. However the war was proving to be a strain
on both parties economies and in 2213AD a treaty was negotiated returning the
border to it's pre 4th War state.

Okay, its 1am here now. I'll finish the 6th through 9th Wars tommorrow.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:06:29 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Solomani Sympathisers (was: OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 

>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 03:46:01 -0800
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re:  OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 

>Harold Hale wrote

[sniperty do dah sniperty day....]

>>    You pretty much are describing the Solomani Confederation, at least
>> as described in Solomani and Aslan.

>Yes and I have always found it strange that more Traveller players are
>not more sympathetic towards the Solomani.  After all almost all
>Traveller players are 100% Solomani.

Strangely, here in New Zealand (once described not inaccurately as the
Prussia of the South Pacific), I've found most players are overwhelmingly
Pro Solomani. Maybe its something in the water.

>P.S. Where can I get my  Solomani Party membership card ? :)

Mark me down for one too.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:37:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

 
> >Yes, I know.  But the basic emission sig has to to with PP output,
> >not size, and HEPlaR is an emissive sig.
> 
> Actually the emissive sig for thrusters, PP etc should be calculated
> separately and the largest one used. The current rules are simplified for
> playability(?) compared to my original homebrew upon which these rules are
> somewhat derived.

Only if the wavelengths of the emitted radiation are different.  If
I look at a certain bandpass and count 1 photon from the ship, and
10 from the drive plume, I still caught 11 photons at that
wavelength.  My detector doesn't care that one was made by the hull
and the rest by the drive plume.

When you have ESM intercept that might be radio transmissions, or
radar, then you're looking with a different detector than your IR or
visual telescope so adding up signals isn't as appropriate.

So certain mods would be cumulative while others wouldn't as I see
it.  Anyway, I guess PP is tied to size to some degree, but the
balance of size vs. PP output certainly changes from civilian to
military ships.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:42:43 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: LS: Dan Yaws - Your E-mail is only one way

Sorry folks for this needless waist of bandwidth.

Dan Yaws, I have been receiving messages from you, but your SMTP host is
rejecting messages from me.  Even the mail administrator account is
rejecting, and so I cannot contact you but I know you are there.

Dan please respond if you read this, knowing that I cannot communicate
back.

Respond to: scspieker@ncweb.com

Thanks,
Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:57:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Winmail.dat and Outlook

Slightly off-topic, but it may save a considerable amount of posts in the
future...

Outlook, as packaged in Office97, has an interesting bug that defaults any
message using a reply-to address to be sent in .rtf format (creating the
winmail.dat).

Microsoft has a patch for outlook available on it's website that corrects
this issue (the internet mail enhancement program or IMEP). I don't know
if this affects Outlook Express or not.

 --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:19:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Second Careers

In a message dated 97-08-07 08:16:02 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Yes but under Preferential Enlistment: if two qualifying characteristics at
 least two points above the number necessary for the enlistment difficulty
 modifier may *Automatically* enlist in the career, without making any
roll....
 
  >>
and Preferential Enlistment goes away in T41.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Hydrographic Roll

In a message dated 97-08-07 05:48:39 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Can we get a ruling?  I'm no physicist but Size seems the better
 indicator to me, since it corresponds to the amount of material that
 gathered to form a planet, and thus corresponds to the amount of
 hydrogen and oxygen that would be present.
 
 Bloo
  >>

I am treating page 130 as a typo. Page 135 becomes authoritative.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:42:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Sanders <kalin@bambam.swlink.net>
Subject: Re: T: 3I & Separation

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Steven Hudson wrote: 

> >Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks
> in >Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p
> 
>   What would be a better term? :) 

Ummm....Canuks in Space...sounds good, but how likely is that to ever be a
reality? :P~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:00:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Vilani First Contact

Harold said:
>    Referee's Section - The real story behind first contact with the
> Vilani.  We would almost certainly have overheard their prescence so
> nearby by the mid-21st century, and they were probably vaguely aware
> that we are here as well.
> 
> 1) Who knew and when did they know it?

	The Long-Range Colonizing missions sent out in generation ships to
the Islands _had_ to be a worst-case insurance plan against destruction by
the "Baddies from Barnard."  There's no other reason to send slowboats so 
far to such a totally isolated region of space except to preserve the race 
in case of catastrophe.  So, obviously the ESA knew it, and presumably 
the US and other powers of the time, whoever the were, probably knew it, too.
	The expedition to the Islands was launched in 2050, so, 
considering preparation time, the ESA had to know by at least 2040, 
probably earlier.

> 2) What preparations were made on Terra for our first face-to-face
> encounter?

	The space-faring nations established significant space fleets both
to gain experience and as defensive forces.  Perhaps one of these fleets
captured a Vilani prospector or some such who came into the system, and
this ultimately allowed them to duplicate the j-drive.  There might also
have been defense installations secretly constructed, like giant PAWs in
hollowed out asteroids. 

> 3) Why didn't the Vilani just absorb us?

	Probably it was just politically inconvenient for the first 
governor who discovered us to admit it.  After that, it became harder and 
harder to explain why no one had noticed us before.  Or maybe it was a 
lot of work for the bureaucracy to integrate a new species into the 
Imperium and they didn't want to be bothered.  Besides, what's one more 
human minor race, more or less?

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:10:20 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

>   Within five years the other Atlantic coast provinces opt out and join
>the U.S., as a increasingly isolationist and hostile Quebec makes it
>difficult for the central government on maintain contact with its
>eastern fringe.

You have heard of telephones, right? If you haven't, they're these marvellous
machines that would let a central government keep contact with its 
"eastern fringe" no matter who's in the way. 

Seriously - I can't imagine any quebec government closing its borders;
trade with the rest of canada will be crucial to its economy. The worst I can
possibly imagine is a dispute over Quebec charging excessively high transit
fees - and even that is unlikely, as a Quebec government is really, really
going to want to be part of NAFTA and hence will be bound by NAFTA 
rules on free trade.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:22:14 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Laser Whomp

>        Actaully, this whole grav focussed lasers question has always made
>me wonder why gravitational weapons, either suddenly creating lenslike
>point sources in the target's galley, er, bridge, or hitting it with
>travelling pulses, haven't been developed for higher TL's in Traveller.
>
>        I mean, let's face it; their destructive potential is _enormous_
><evil mad scientist laughter> and they'd just be a logical extension of
>either the grav point source lens or travelling annular pulse technologies.
>I can just see an Ancient-level weapon that just collapsed targets into
>little balls of superdense...
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

Buy GURPS Vehicles and see. Most high TL weapons there are of the
gravcannon etc variety which give you the SF feel of StarTrek or Lensman ie
not entirely hard SF (;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:14:10 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Blue Planet

John R. Snead wrote:

>On that note, I'll do my one but of self-promotion.  Blue Planet is a
>great new SF game (well, I think it's great, I wrote 20% of it).  It's set
>in 2199 and is a hard sf extrapolation of the future which involves humans
>colonizing another star system.  It's 350 pages long with over 250 pages
>of world background, gadgets and other stuff, and only around 90 pages of
>(quite good) rules.  In it we have realistic cybertech, genetic
>engineering, space colonization, and much other fun stuff.
>
>Also, it does have one thing in common with Traveller.  Blair Reynolds
>(who did much of the art in several DGP MT products, including Solomani
>& Aslan did the interior art.
>
>See "http://www.biohazardgames.com/" for more info
>
>
>No more non-Traveller advertising, I promise...

Yeah, will you please rein that in?! <g>

Seriously though, John, I appreciate your post here. I had stumbled upon
the description of Blue Planet a few months back at the Biohazard site and
sort of forgot about the game since then. I was intrigued by the
description.

Thanks to your ad, I'll probably buy a copy, so your advertising and
shameless self-promotion guaranteed at least one sale!

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:18:20 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)

>It's a judgement call. My opinion is that even with 3-I tech grav and
>neutrino sensors aren't good enough to detect spacecraft at significant
>ranges. Among other issues, you have to have a way of sheilding your detector
>against unwanted gravity and neutrinoes - otherwise grav variations from
>people on your own ship, and neutrinoes from your own power plant and from
>the sun, swamp the hostile signal. If you *have* such a way of blocking
>neutrinoes, why not just apply it to the power plant so no-one else can
>see your neutrinoes?

A little handwave for my gravscanners/massdetectors:
In my uncanonical but remarkably similar universe tractors/pressers come in
at short range vs missiles at TL 15 and real long range such at TL 16+
(remember that Strephons palace was held in place not by gravthrusters but
repulsers on the ground according to DGP Capital issue). Before TL 15
however we are able to make VERY feeble tractors. They pull SLIGHTLY at far
away targets and the power consumtion of them is the sum of mass/range^2
for all targets within its lobe. Thus by measuring the powerconsumtion they
can detect massive targets. they cannot see through planets as the power
for tractoring the planet will noise out any starships etc on the other
side. Another drawback here is the fact that as armourplate will be pretty
close the sensors will have to be put on the outside of the ship - not as
convenient as neutrino sensors.

>>If you *have* such a way of blocking
>>neutrinoes, why not just apply it to the power plant so no-one else can
>>see your neutrinoes?

I do not buy this argument as this would apply to other signatures as well:
"If you can detect photons why not use that technology to block the photons
thus making the ship invisible"
I know the anology falters due to thermodynamics etc but if one can detect
say 1 per million neutrino shot off it would be useable for detection but
not for shielding.

My larger reason for using neutrino/mass detectors is that I tend to look
at Traveller tech as more than quantative change: At TL 6-7 we generally
look at planes/ships with radars, at TL 8 we gradually go over to
IR/visual. The IR/Visual sensing rules supreme in space until TL 13 when
(in my Universe) thrusterplates arrive that make starships MUCH harder to
detect (no exhaust plume); luckily enough gravscanners arrive at about the
same time to detect those thrusterplates (each ton of thrust from
thrusterplates/gravthrust produces the equivalent of 10 tons of mass sig)
and at really high TLs (14+) shipboard neutrinoscanners arrive that make
heavily armoured battleships practical. This (in my Universe) is the main
reason that battleships tend to be so large in traveller (the larger the
ship the more armour and they have to be big enough to room several
neutrinoscanners).

In summary I want my spaceship fights to be different at different TLs/eras.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:25:41 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: RE: Laser Grav Pulse???

I prefer to think that gravatic technology works by 'crinkling' the
space-time fabric.  The 'Force of Gravity' is merely the effect of space
being curved.  A star (or planet, or pocketwatch for that matter) makes
a 'dent' in the fabric of space.

A grav plate, however, _wrinkles_ the space around it, making a very
sharp local distortion or gravitational gradient.  The greater the
gradient you wish to create, the more energy you have to put in.  If you
want a larger gradient, again it requires more energy.  However, because
the warp is small, the effect dies off at a very short range--space for
all intensive purposes, wants to remain flat (via the conservation of
energy).  Creating a sub meter radius, 1000 G gradient to focus your
laser would have little practical effect beyond the confines of the
laser turret.

Rather than a single device that creates such a powerful field,
G-focused laser (graser?) would employ several small gravatic devices,
each focused on a small area just outside the columniation chamber's
emitter.   The fields overlap, creating the huge gradient needed to
focus the laser.  Also, this provides the method to _focus_ the
laser-altering the individual field strengths changes the laser's point
of convergence.

Another matter is why the ship doesn't implode on the laser turret.  Two
reasons-artificial gravity fields decay at an exponential rate and
contragrav devices are used to ''shield" the device from the rest of the
ship.

Comments? 

.


Jeffrey Cornish
Appian Graphics Technical Support

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	anders.backman@aniware.se
[SMTP:anders.backman@aniware.se]
	Sent:	Thursday, August 07, 1997 6:49 AM
	To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
	Subject:	Re: Laser Grav Pulse???

	>What Whommp? The gravitic effects of a grav-focused laser should be
	>localized to the Firing end only... I thought it uses the gravitics as a
	>lens, not a confinement beam... based solely upon FF&S 1. I can't see a
	>canfinement beam until TL16+, based upon the established TL's for tractors
	>and Repulsors... Besides, Gravitics are OBVIOUSLY some kind of field
	>effect.
	>
	>William F. Hostman
	><Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

	Nope, some guys smarter than me figured that the only way to do
it without
	involving black hole style gravitics (pretty nasty weapons)
would be to
	fire a gravity soliton along the beam that would interact with
the photons
	all the way to the target.


	/Anders Backman
	Aniware AB
	anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1659
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1660



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Milieu E21
Inter-Imperial Relations (was Canada vs USA)
Re:T41 Chargen
Re: Slightly more Trav than Oh! Canada
Re: Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)
Re: THUDDD 6 preliminaries
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Shipplans and stuff.
Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: Second Careers
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: new items and math question
3I and Solomani
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Wehn to invest in real estate.
Re: Second careers
Interstellar Expansion
Re: THUDDD 6: Contest Announcement: Low-Tech SDB
Starting the Interstellar Wars
Re: new sensor packages for QSDS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:27:35 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Milieu E21

Mike Lee wrote:

>        I agree heartily that interplanetary travel should be fairly
>expensive, at least out past Mars.  For Luna to become a viable, thriving
>nation, I think there would need to be economical travel from Earth-Luna,
>though.

True. Your mention of a "space elevator" would make shipping freight
relatively cheap though. For an interesting mishap with a space elevator,
read Kim Stanley Robinson's RED MARS. Reading this book will make you
believe that security for a space elevator would be extreme because the
consequences of sabotage to such a device could have effects on the entire
Terran population!

>        As far as characters having their own ships- you could make a case
>for characters being belters, prospectors, traders, or military types, and
>having ships on a corporate-subsidized basis, similar to the old subsidized
>merchants from CT.  Getting ships as "gifts" a la the 100-ton Scout would be
>unheard of, however.

Yeah, pretty much. I've been slowly developing an Interstellar Wars milieu
for my players for some time now. The premise would be that they are a crew
of diverse backgrounds who are hired to serve as corsairs during the 1st
Interstellar War. Without an interstellar navy to speak of, the Terrans
would have to rely on commerce raiding to destabilize the local Vilani
economy.

A similar scenario could be played out in the E21 milieu. Here I go with a
literary reference again. Ben Bova's PRIVATEERS presents an interesting
prototype for such a setting.

>* The Solar System
>Some decent maps of Earth/Luna and a terraformed Mars, plus details of
>orbital stations and facilities (is there an orbital elevator?) Also,
>I agree that nearby stars should be included, but I'd extend that out to
>a subsector's worth of systems. With only a moderate number of systems
>being detailed, it would be feasible to provide system maps of each.

And for some good maps, go to:

http://bang.lanl.gov/solarsys/

There are many photo maps at this site that could be squeezed into the
ubiquitous Traveller world map.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml



- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:04:13 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Inter-Imperial Relations (was Canada vs USA)

Harold Hale wrote:
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:
>
>>        I think you're encountering a fundamental difference between the
>>U.S. and the Canadian conception of their respective statehoods.  Canada
is
[snippage]
>
>   Such thinking is foreign to Americans.  While we have our share of
>regional and even state rivalries (Ohio, for example, has a long running
>feud with Michigan to the north and Kentucky to the south over seperate
>border disputes), after 1865 these never get to the point of troop
>mobilizations.

During the construction of the Hoover Dam, there was a huge argument
between the states of Arizona and California over the division of the water
of the lower Colorado river.  This argument (which really dates back to the
days of the Spanish rule of the region) grew and grew until the governor of
Arizona mobilized the state militia with orders to seize the Hoover Dam.  A
quick response by the Federal government ended the impasse before the
troops actually took possession of the dam, but the forces were mobilized
and preparing to go.

So, to bring in the obligatory Traveller reference; how would the Imperium
resolve such a situation?  Image a subsector in some backwater new sector
of the Imperium.  There are two TL10 worlds here, Planet Alpha and Planet
Beta.  Both worlds are relatively similar, but Planet Alpha is more wealthy
in minerals and has a higher technology, and Planet Beta has a higher
population and larger economy.  Planet Beta gets a large portion of its
mineral needs from Planet Alpha.  Both worlds are not so hot
agriculturally, and both depend on large colonies on Planet Zeta (a nearby
agricultural world).  The Imperium comes in, and suddenly Alpha and Beta
are part of the Imperium.  Zeta has no government of its own, but two
colonies from worlds that are now part of the Imperium.

So - does the Imperium force Zeta to become independent?  Does it hand it
over to either Alpha or Beta for sole rule?  When a minor famine hits Zeta
and the more-populous Beta decides to grab all of the crop for the year,
how does the Imperium react?  Does the Imperium act immediately>  Does it
wait until Alpha sends a military force to occupy Zeta?

I would suspect that the Imperium would not allow the dual-ownership of
Zeta; it would either be made its own independent polity or it would be
granted to one of the two other worlds when the Imperium took over.
However, this would not remove the fact that both Alpha and Beta need Zeta
to survive.  The Imperium does not take a huge interest in the internal
affairs of its member worlds, but this situation would demand some sort of
Imperial attention because:
   A.  Relations between member worlds are an Imperial prerogative
   B.  Any military activity between Alpha and Beta would involve the space
lanes, another Imperial prerogative.

and, of course, the Imperium would not want to lose a significant part of
the population of one of its member worlds to an argument over resources.

Any thoughts?
Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:03:59
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Re:T41 Chargen

CardSharks@aol.com [Marc Miller wrote]:

>Any comments (especially from those of you who have been reviewing T41
>Chargen)?

Well, I have a plead. It is tangentially linked with Chargen per se, but
here it comes anyway:

May we (please) have a non-starship Engineering skill (at least one...) for
people who build houses, bridges, airplanes and so on? 
I'd like a career based on some kind of "blue collar merc" like the ones
who (here on Earth)  work on oil rigs, build dams in remote regions and so
on, someone who works on the various kind of infrastructure  for a planet.

An Imperial Civil Engineering Corps woul be nice and I think that an
official "Engineer" skill would be a godsend.



__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:29:21 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Slightly more Trav than Oh! Canada

At 08:37 PM 7/08/97, you wrote:

>I can see similar events happening in the 3I, with a air raft crewed by four 
>desperadoes and a Naval Officer with a laser rifle and an newly-written 
>authority from  the local governor closing in one some pocket empire's
>battlewagon, demanding it withdraw from Imperial Space, or face the full
>wrath of the Imperial Navy ...

I **love** this... And I can see it happening to my PC's. Although it
probably wouldn't be a shot across the bows (ga-faw, giggle), more
realistically I see them demanding the battle wagon to "heave to and
prepare to be boarded". 

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:17:58 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)

At 09:17 AM 7/08/97 +0100, you wrote:

>Please, could we just lose the Canadian/USA
>governmental/social/economic system comparison or whatever it is?  I
>don't know if most of the posts had anything to say relevant to Trav,
>because I gave up reading them.  This is th stuff of private email, or
>perhaps there is a Rant on About America Mailing List somewhere?  This
>isn't intended as a flame, just a request.

And very nicely put too. :)
Stewart, I have to say that I am actually quite interested in this
discussion. Hearing an insiders view about their own government (as well as
an outsiders point of view of that same government) actually helps to give
me ideas about different traveller governments. My view of a foreign
goverenment will always be tainted by my own misconceptions. Hearing about
the varios problems not only helps me with an understanding, but also leads
me to plot ideas. 
Still, you are right, we should rememeber that this is a list for
discussing traveller in it's various forms, and try not to get too carried
away. 


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:48:24 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 preliminaries

Moin Craig Berry,

> That's why I'm opening up the range of tonnage to a full factor of two,
> from 500 to 1000 tons.  As cost is very roughly proportional to tonnage in
> this regime, designers are welcome to trade off the lesser individual
> capability but greater redundancy and operational flexibility of two 500
> ton ships vs. one 1000 ton ship, or any point in between.

	Hm sorry ;-( I have already designed my boats, making them
	bigger would make them even more expensive but not better.

	As 400dt is the classical size of a SDB, say 100-999, to make
	any size 8 boat posible.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:30:29 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Moin Peter Miller,

> (why did they actually start?).

	I think Shell started it or was it ESSO. It was one of those
	solomani megacorporations, who was used to be a state of its
	own. It was a Vilani planet with local TL6 inhabitants. Shell
	treated them like they used to treat people in Afrika, just a
	little virus, slow and deadly designed to seek a genetic
	diffenence.

	Politican talked a lot this time that this was'nt a designed
	virus but a typical solomani one, who killed the Vilani like
	Grippe for the Indians.

	But it was to late, the virus spread around the Vilani rimward
	frontier and Vilani decidet to declare war. A fortune for
	the few Solomani ships, where that most of Vilani crew where
	already infected. Now Solomani had Vilani Ships to counterstrike.

	Together with Grippe they overrun the former Empire.
	
By Michael

PS : I think I've smoked to much ;-)
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:57:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Shipplans and stuff.

>        Just got acquainted with some pretty nifty Cad-like engines while
>doings
>some shipplans. I was wondering if anyone has some cad files with
>furnitures, consoles and stuff to incorporate into my own. Heard some guy
>talking about making an internet-ship plan standard using a standard set of
>objects in cad plans.
>
>        Anyone who knows what the heck i'm talking about?
>
>        I think these files would work: .WMF, .DXF, .DWG .
>
>Keep on pouring your stuff onto this excellent list.

Make it DXF then as ALL 3D apps can read/write that despite its crappiness
(no textures etc). Otherwise I'd vote for 3DMF files but that would
probably start another PCs (albeit slow) are better than Macs war.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 97 12:49:19 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

I promise to keep this short and not visit it again...for a while. ;->

On 08/07/97 at 12:01 AM,  Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net> said:

>>Now, I KNOW no Quebec government would do any of the above, but speaking
>>hypothetically...

>If you KNOW the Quebec government would never do any of these things, than
>why do you even bring it up?

To be polite.  I picked Quebec because I was discussing this with a
Canadian, and because it *is* relatively unlikely that anything this
drastic will happen there.  If I had been discussing this with an
Englishman, I would have used Scotland...using Ireland would have
been...well, I *was* speaking hypothetically.  ;->

However, if you want to get right down to it, I don't really KNOW that *no*
Quebec (or Canadian) government would ever do any of the above. Heaven
knows, governments of many supposed civilized nations have committed worse
acts, and yes, this includes various governments in the United States. 
What I was attempting to get at was what I perceived as an attitude of "It
can't happen here, because *we're* different.", and IMO, it can happen
ANYWHERE.  If you think it can't happen where you live, then you're half
way to letting it happen.

>>Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks in
>>Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p

In reply to someone's question as to how you should refer to us, well, I
live in the United States of America, and I'm an American.

American is what we call ourselves, and whether Canadians, Mexicans,
Brazilians, Englishmen or Swedes <g> think that's fair, that *is* what we
call ourselves. We would *like* you to call us that too.

Specifically, "Yank" or "Yankee" refers to Americans that live in the New
England states..or generically to any citizens of the north or midwestern
states.  Just as you shouldn't call Scotsmen or a Welshmen, English, you
shouldn't refer to *all* Americans as Yanks.  I had intended my comment to
be taken as a joke, but, if you like, you can think of it as defending our
trademarks.  ;->

Finally, Peter, it was Alabama, not Mississippi, where Wallace "stood in
the schoolhouse door."  Mississippi didn't need the Alabama governor for
that, they had enough idiot politicians of their own stirring up trouble.
Racial bigotry isn't unique to the American South, but the racial bigots of
my region *are* a continuing embarrassment to many of my fellow
Southerners.  To *parody* Wallace's segregation speech, they were idiots
then, they are idiots now, and they will be idiots forever.  Just don't tar
us all with the same brush.

Eris,
    American by birth
    Southern by the Grace of God
    Floridian by choice
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 19:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In-Reply-To: <v0300780ab00e1f8ef0fa@[18.77.3.40]>

> >>Picked it up (Marathon 2) for about $15 at the local fire sale store
> >>(Building 19).
> >>
> >>Didn't see the little "Win 95 required" on it.
>  
> I don't think you understand.  I don't have windows 95, so the box is going
> to sit on a shelf until I upgrade (probably when I get my next computer).

Oh! I thought it was for the Mac. Can you point me towards somewhere (ideally 
on the net) that sells it? Never seen it over here.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 19:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

In-Reply-To: <33E7B949.58D6@pacbell.net>

Glenn,

> > > Yes, you are right. FFS laser sight are bit big and heavy, so it's not
> > > usable on pistols.
> > 
> > Which is odd, since I can go out now and buy a TL8 laser pointer for 
> > ~$50 that's the size/weight of a pen and will reach 100m.
>  
> Laser sights for pistols sell for about $400.00, and are about the size
> of a cigarette lighter.  "Sight" isn't the right word; it's really a
> pointer that tells the shooter where the gun is pointed.

I would've said 'aiming point indicator', but that takes longer to type...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 19:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Second Careers

In-Reply-To: <970805173415_-1138398448@emout13.mail.aol.com>

> Here is the current text from T4 for second careers.
>  
> Rolls for a second career (enlistment, injury, promotion, and continuance)
> are subject to a DM of -2; all rolls for a third career are subject to a DM
> of -3. All other DMs, qualifications, and preferences apply.
>  
> *** is someone really subject to a greater chance of injury in a second
> career?

No.
  
> A character with a commission in a previous career automatically receives a
> commission in the new career with a rank one less than the highest obtained
> previously.

with a min of O-2?

> *** Commissioned rank gets a new commission at rank-1. What about enlisted?
> Does it apply at the high end of the spectrum (E7-8-9 and O7-8-9).

E-1 to E-5 get dumped back to E-1, E-6+ lose 1 grade.

> Are some second careers precluded? 

Ex-Rogues can't join the military or become Agents. OTOH, someone who gets a 
Soc boost may now qualify as a Noble.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:21:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

>Only if the wavelengths of the emitted radiation are different.  If
>I look at a certain bandpass and count 1 photon from the ship, and
>10 from the drive plume, I still caught 11 photons at that
>wavelength.  My detector doesn't care that one was made by the hull
>and the rest by the drive plume.

Due to the simple fact that we're dealing with a pretty steep logscale
max(log(a),log(b) is about the same as a+b, right?
As the factor for drive, pp etc will change during play we need to
recalculate them during play; either we calculate them, sum them and log
them or just take the max of the dominant one. I've tried both versions and
believe me to the latter is far easier to cope with.

Your example of 1 + 10 would be:

max(log10(10),log10(1)) = 1

log10(10+1) = 1


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 19:18 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: new items and math question

In-Reply-To: <01IM463RKV1E90N8D5@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

Robert,

> > There are an *awful* lot of these. Didn't *anybody* check this before 
> > it went to the printers?
>  
>    equation and others like it many times before.)   But the problem
>    smells like software incompatability --- the writers used one type of
>    software, the printers another.  Often (always) non-standard characters
>    like times signs and so on change their meaning from one program to
>    another.  The printers should have known better (assuming this is the
>    cause of the problem) and insisted (and checked) that the writers
>    use appropriate software.
>  
>    (Occasionally, the writer is at fault for these problems; he tries to
>    do an end-run around the software requirements by using his own
>    favorite word processor and then doing some alleged `conversion' to
>    the required format while not checking his output.  Printers are

Either way, somebody cocked up. I'm not really interested in who, or why, I 
just want to know that it won't happen again.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 11:44:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: 3I and Solomani

>   Thus another tie-in with Traveller: Without question there would be
>factions within the Solomani Party that objected to the Solomani
>invasion of the Imperium in 1117 on the grounds that it would only serve
>to weaken the Imperium and ensure that the Solomani Confederation would
>eventually dissolve into feuding factions (once the Imperium was no
>longer a threat).  The Imperial threat seemed to be the only thing
>keeping the Solomani Confederation together.

Hello,
  Peeling off territory that rightly belonged to the Race (i.e., every
human inhabited, or uninhabited star system in this galaxy, at least)
is certainly a moral duty of any loyal Sol-Sec representative. Given
the fact of the Rebellion, they could always helpfully prevent Imperial
collapse by supporting one or more factions; being effectively undamaged
they could certainly afford it.

  Also, didn't Vega go hedgehog around an Imperial Navy concentration?
Daibei could also be represented to Confederation politico's as a threat
in order to maintain cohesion. Sol-Sec wouldn't hesitate to subvert the
intelligence feed to other state institutions, if it could.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
       

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

This is a very nice beginning synopsis. I'm looking forward to the rest.

Meanwhile, the intent of Nth Interstellar War was to convey that toward the
end of the period, some groups of worlds were at peace while others continued
to fight. The Ziru Sirka (or is it Sirkaa?) talked out of several sides of
its collective mouth, and kept fighting etc.The traditional numbering system
for wars was used (1-8) or so until it fell apart.

I have been talking with Loren Wiseman about he and I doing the E21 milieu,
and it would be a natural for us to do the Interstellar Wars after that. I
believe that a Milieu should be used to reflect on a specific type of play
and emphasize that. E21 would emphasize the Soalr System and the Grand Story
of first contacts with the Vilani. The Interstellar Wars would benefit from
emphasizing space battles and ship design.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:12:03 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Wehn to invest in real estate.

	Harold Hale wrote:

[snip]
>
>   It's *war*, not a football match, of course people are going to die
>(offer excludes England).  During the American Civil War, Atlanta,
>Richmond, and countless small towns and villages were burned.  You can
>expect similar results in Quebec (Montreal wouldn't be a good place to
>invest in real estate).
[snip]


	Au contraire.  There's this Chinese saying to the effect that the
best time to buy is when the blood is flowing in the streets.  You can snap
up some real bargains that way.





Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:23:59 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Re: Second careers

Marc Said:
>I have really enjoyed working on T41 Chargen, and as it nears completion, I
>want to point out the elements that I think are important/fun/interesting.
>
>Revised Homeworld/Birthworld Determination.
>Character Cards.
>Education advancement to specific levels (ie, College graduate to Edu 7).
>The Technical Institute (thanks Volker!)
>Impediments to noble advancement beyond C.
>Impediments to Military commissioned rank advancement beyond O6.
>The Masquerade for Rogues.
>Rewards and Consequences for Rogues.
>Assumed Identities for Agents.
>Current university association for Scholars (ie The University of Na Ni Po)
>Birthdate determination
>Official Status for Nobles
>Detached Duty for Scouts
>Reintroduction of Cutlasses for Scouts
>
>Any comments (especially from those of you who have been reviewing T41
>Chargen)?

I assume you meant, of course, "reintroduction of Cutlasses for Marines". I
never thought they went away, myself, just got subsumed into the "Large
Blade" skill category.

I really like what I have seen of the new chargen rules, especially with
multiple careers reinstated, after a fashion. I like all of the things
listed above, and look forward to utilizing this in future Traveller games.

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:40:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Interstellar Expansion

Hello,
>joining the U.S.  The new "rump" country of Canada is now virtually
>landlocked and on the verge of losing its national identity.
                       ^^^^^     ^^^^^
  Been there. Nothing new :) An interesting point on the perhaps
unlikely prospect of provinces trying to join the U.S.; how much
trouble would be caused by, say three more New England states
each electing radical left wing Democratic senators (hmm, the NDP
claims to be an avowedly _socialist_ party - kinda makes calling
opponents "liberal" pretty weird in context)?

  This also raises a question in small interstellar states that
aren't simply based on one conquering power - what will the new
balance of power within the polity be after admission of new
members? The 3I in 1100 is too big for any single member to matter,
but to a single sub-sector or even sector government it can make a
great deal of difference, particularly if factions aren't ideology
driven (see 18th C. Britain). This also remembers the pre-ACW
period somewhat, correct?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
       

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:18:40 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6: Contest Announcement: Low-Tech SDB

Moin Craig Berry,

> The vessel will form the cornerstone of permanent in-system defense in the
> key systems of our Empire.  Its size must be in the range 500 to 1000
> displacement tons, and it should not be jump-capable.

	I would prefer 200-1000 tons. The classical SDB is 400 tons,
	it would'nt fit into your range.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 15:22:03 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Starting the Interstellar Wars

The Americans probably did start the Interstellar Wars.  We've always been 
very interested in trade, freedom of navigation, and other such principles 
that are easily turned to profit.

All wars, even the mythological American Revolution, are complex events 
which simultaneously incorporate private and public aspirations to wealth
and power.  In the case of IW #1, one object was simple, survival.  Even 
a poor tactician could sense that envelopment of Terran space, however large 
and vibrant, would lead to the assimilation of Terra into the Vilani state.
That couldn't be allowed, so all that was required for war was a pretext.
Perhaps that wasn't even necessary.  Maybe the Vilani were in violation of
some very basic agreements.  After all, these were the same people who
expended great effort at subjugating every race and people they 
encountered by convincing them that they were inferior to Vland, and who 
hardly balked at using mass-destruction warfare to achieve the desired
ends.

Perhaps that merchant caravan was armed, perhaps it intentionally
hazarded Terran astrogation or facilities at Barnard.  

And I don't mind anyone using the word "Yankee" of me (I consider it a
compliment to my heritage).  The word goes back a long way and has 
identified Americans (for good or ill), northerners especially,
throughout the history of the present United States and before.  

I won't speak for those south of the Mason-Dixon line, as they 
have their own feelings on the matter.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:53:10 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: new sensor packages for QSDS

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

	is FFS now quite useless ? your stats dont meet any of mine !
	I wont like to see DSR-ratings in THUDDD 6, they are created
	to befuddle buyer by asuming a higher value. Its like 2inch
	is bigger than 1 meter.

> "don't neglect LIDAR" - a cheap LIDAR will often be able to 
> get a fire control lock when a medium-sized passive array can't.

	Is lidar differnt to old ladar ? an L4 (which is maximum
	for TL<11) has a size of 2.4m3 and cost of 24MCr. I wont
	call this cheap. So L14 (using your DSR-ratings) would be
	maximum for TL10. You have L15 lidars here, this would mean
	a short range of 7 what is posible at TL13 !

> TL10 sensors:
> Type	   Power   Cost	 Area   Vol   Hull  Rating			Crew
> Basic	     0.4    2.8	  0.6   2.1     0   A11 P12.5 L0 JA0 JP0	1.0
> Improved     0.8   14.1	  2.8	7.8     1   A11 P13 L14 JA0 JP0		1.5
> Small Mil    7.0  135.0	 26.5  71.5    40   A11.5 P13.5 L14.5 JA11 JP0  2.0
> Medium Mil 156.5 1856.6	321.3 955.3  1000   A12 P14 P13.5S L15 L15 JA12 JP0
> 								crew=3
> Science	     5.2 1225.0	 25.0 425.0     0   A11.5 P14Fsc L0. JA0. JP0.	1.0
> Mil Picket 111.2 1605.0	 96.0 629.0    40   A11.5 P14FS P13.5T L14.5 JA12 JP13.5
> 								crew=3
> Lurker	     1.3  181.3	 36.3  75.3    40   A10 P13.5 P13.5S L14.5 JA0 JP0	1.5
> SearchLight 53.2  275.8	 55.2 266.7	1   A12 P13 L15 JA0 JP0 	1.5
> 
> 								
> 
> Over the past year BamTech has been working quietly behind the scenes as a major
> consultant to the Imperium on sensor and electronics countermeasures issues.
> Now, BamTech is prepared to come out from the shadows of the "black world" and
> apply its unmatched expertise in sensor analysis and design to the construction
> of a whole suite of sensor products - ranging from the solid and reliable to
> state-of-the-art equipment for the Imperial Navy.
> 
> Our first production facilities are located on Linth (Core 0502 B664884-A),
> and until certain complex legal issues are sorted out, we are emphasizing
> TL-10 sensors. These sensors can be maintained by less advanced worlds on the
> fringes of the Imperium, and BamTech is even prepared to licence manufacturing to
> local corporations. The initial annoucement was timed to coincide with this
> month's THUDD competition for a TL-10 System Defence Boat. We at BamTech are
> confident that our sophisticated sensors will provide several exciting design
> options to THUDD participants.
> 
> In addition to sensors, BamTech is searching for industry partners for a planned
> line of stealthy starship hulls. True stealth can't be added as an afterthought - 
> it must be designed into a hull from the ground up.
> 
> The initial line includes no less than 8 sensor packages - more than any of our
> competitors have ever offered! With such a wide range, ship designers can be sure
> of finding the perfect package even for the most exotic requirement.
> 
> For civilian customers, we offer the BamTech Basic package, certified to meet
> navigational requirements on all Imperial and neighbouring worlds. This package
> is recommended only for the most confident of shipholders, as it provides effectively
> no fire control capability.
> 
> The BamTech Standard adds a enhanced passive sensor, the BamTech P1300, capable of
> detecting small civilian spacecraft at ranges in excess of 5,000,000 km. The
> P1300 also provides a significant passive fire control capability. More importantly,
> it adds a cost-effecitve LIDAR tracker, the L1400, capable of engaging twenty
> targets simultaneously to ranges of nearly 1,000,000 km. Pirates will know they're
> in for a fight when the L1400 lights up their hull!
> 
> The Small and Medium Military packages add enhanced active, passive, and LIDAR
> sensors, together with sophisicated electronic countermeasures. The Medium,
> with its dual scanners and LIDARS, allow a destroyer-sized starship to 
> excercise absolute command over its assigned patrol area.
> 
> For the more peaceful customer, the BamTech "Tycho" Science package features
> the most sophisticated sensor array available, the S1400 folding science array.
> >From the surface of Sylea, this array can easily resolve a man-sized target on
> the moon! In addition, it includes the full functionality of a P1400 spacecraft
> tracking array - including an unmatched passive fire control capability for those
> tricky tenure struggles.
> 
> Finally, BamTech offers three sensor systems for specialized military needs. The
> powerful Picket suite combines a large folding array - the largest BamTech
> currently offers - with a powerful ECM suite, ideal for allowing small warships
> to listen in on enemy ship movements and escape undetected. The Lurker suite
> uses dual passive sensor arrays - one full-function, one scanner - while 
> reducing costs by including only navigational radar sensors; ideal for those
> who prefer not to announce their presence to the whole world. Alternatively,
> the SearchLight suite is for combat vessels unafraid to be seen. It includes an
> A1200 imaging active electromagnetic sensor, the same as the Medium Military
> suite, but for a fraction of the total cost. Hostile vessels trying to hide
> with their power plants shut down will be in for the (last) surprise of their
> lives!
> 
> If these suites don't match your needs, BamTech is prepared to work with
> major shipbuilders to assemble custom packages for any function - from
> sensor drones to system control ships.
> 
> BamTech is prepares to ship all these sensor suites in limited (prototype)
> quantities for the THUDD competition, and to ramp up production to meet the
> needs of the winning team - and we're confident that the winning team will be
> the one that choses BamTech! 
> 


- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1660
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Thursday, August 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1661



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Loose Confederations (Was Quebeck)
M: -25 C
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: Second Careers
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Damn Yankees!
RE: Laser Grav Pulse???
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: new sensor packages for QSDS
re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)
Re: Star Trigger
Re: Second Careers
Re: Laser Grav Pulse???
Re: new items and math question
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1657
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1660
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Second Careers
Re: Laser Grav Pulse???
Re: Interstellar Wars
Re: Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)
Re: Sensor rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:39:05 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Loose Confederations (Was Quebeck)

>        So basically, and here comes the ObTrav, you shouldn't assume that
>all countries or political units in Trav are put together and hang together
>like the US; I'm sure that out there in the Imperium there are loose
>confederations of smaller political units that hold together because it
>make political and economic sense.  Travellers might very well encounter
>citizens who put their local political entity's interests above the larger
>collectivity's, and who aren't firecely and ideologically patriotic;
>they're merely patriotic because it makes sense...  Basically, politics in
>Traveller should hopefully transcend the dreaded "Yanks in Space" syndrome
>:).

An idea I often use in some of the worlds. Often, I treat some of the more
main-stream balkanized worlds this way. They, as a group, joined the
Imperium... even though they actually are merely in a treaty to jointly pay
the taxes and levies of imperial membership. The scouts say they are
balkanized due to no common rule of law; the imperium sees them as a
"Member World"...


William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:40:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: M: -25 C

Hello,
>   Actually all this ties into our discussion of the 21st Century
>Milieu.  Things should be coming to a head in Quebec within the next 10
>years or so, and it would be good to have the political background stuff
>worked out ahead of time.

  The canonical material doesn't cover a lot of the important
points necessary to play in the later 21st century. Admittedly,
we have to decide whether states have mostly withered away (let's
assume not for now), which doesn't seem indicated in the material.

  The UN must have been pretty weak until the Wars. So power in
the classic Realist sense lies with the Great Powers. Unless
there's been a tremendous upheaval of one sort or another then
both Japan and the U.S. are going to qualify. Europe will if united,
and possibly China if it's somehow continued to advance under
it's burdens. Who else would qualify as Great Powers in 2050
rather than regional powers (seriously, Nigeria may end up as
the strongman of sub-Saharan Africa, but the U.S. would still
tell them where to stick it when it mattered to them).

  Also, when the Terran Confederation is formed, what bribes
are used to bring the less-developed countries on-board to a
group that is just a fig leaf for the bigger powers operations
(or suggest why all is sweetness and light)?

  BTW, what is the minimum heredity for Solomani citizenship?
Or is it a cultural thing? I mean, like what if you're Scottish?
Does the sheep blood count?  :)
  No flames please. I mean that - b-a-a-a-ck off.
        Have fun,
                Steven Hudson (1/16th+ sheep)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 20:43 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

In-Reply-To: <33E8F687.3B7D@sk.sympatico.ca>

Glenn,

> > > OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
> > > There's lots there for a Trav game...
> > 
> > Mac only, isn't it?
>  
> Nope. Marathon 2 is out for Win95, too.

Ah. I shall investigate. I've nearly finished Duke Nukem 3D, so I'll 
need something else to waste my time on soon...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 97 20:43 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Second Careers

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970806102804.26881A-100000@pill.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

Bruce,

> Bloo is right...the restricted number of character options tend to produce
> more one dimensional characters. While an experienced gamer can take an
> Agent and make a journalist or a cop or a PI or a bounty hunter or a spy
> from that generation sequence, having those careers explicitly laid out,
> encourages even experienced gamers to rethink what kind of character
> they're creating.

Personally, I'd rather have more career branches than more careers (although 
ideally I'd like both) - an Army infantryman has more in common with a 
Marine infantryman than with an Army filing clerk!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:29:17 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >   Within five years the other Atlantic coast provinces opt out and join
> >the U.S., as a increasingly isolationist and hostile Quebec makes it
> >difficult for the central government on maintain contact with its
> >eastern fringe.
> 
> You have heard of telephones, right? If you haven't, they're these marvellous
> machines that would let a central government keep contact with its
> "eastern fringe" no matter who's in the way.
> 

Besides, with that kind of logic, Alaska should have joined Canada
a long time ago.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:39:39 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Damn Yankees!

>Specifically, "Yank" or "Yankee" refers to Americans that live in the New
>England states..or generically to any citizens of the north or midwestern
>states. 

I am from Connecticut and don't call me a Yankee, I am a Red Sox fan.

:)
 
Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is round and dangerous?  
A:A vicious circle.            

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:37:03 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: RE: Laser Grav Pulse???

Jeff Cornish writes

>Creating a sub meter radius, 1000 G gradient to focus your
>laser would have little practical effect beyond the confines of the
>laser turret.

>Rather than a single device that creates such a powerful field,
>G-focused laser (graser?) would employ several small gravatic devices,
>each focused on a small area just outside the columniation chamber's
>emitter.

The problem with this approach is that the field has to be bigger than 
"sub meter radius". Whether you use glass or gravity to focus light, it's
still limited by diffraction - a 1-m diameter beam coming out of a 
magic grav device will still have an angular spread lambda/D and hence
not be very useful - no better than a glass lens 1-m in diameter could have
made. (We can make mirrors or lenses that achieve essentially perfect
wavefronts - grav lensing wouldn't let you do any better.) To get decent
beam performance with this approach the beam as it leaves the gravity field
has to be tens of meters across, which means the gravity field has to be 
tens of meters across and millions of G's...Which is hard to do. The 
travelling pulse is somewhat more plausible.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:46:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

Merrick writes
>Anders writes
>> Actually the emissive sig for thrusters, PP etc should be calculated
>> separately and the largest one used. The current rules are simplified for
>> playability(?) compared to my original homebrew upon which these rules are
>> somewhat derived.
>Only if the wavelengths of the emitted radiation are different.  If
>I look at a certain bandpass and count 1 photon from the ship, and
>10 from the drive plume, I still caught 11 photons at that
>wavelength. 

The problem is that sensors are on a log scale - you can't add numbers on
a log scale. (Well, you can, but you're multiplying when you do.)

Look at the signature table:

Power		Signature
0.01-0.09 MW      -2.
0.1-0.9 MW        -1.5
1 -9 MW           -1
10 MW             -0.5
100 MW             0



Consider for example a missile with wimpy little batteries and a power of
0.05 MW - signature -2. We calculate somehow that its thrusters radiate
about 5 MW of heat - signature -1. How do we calculate the total signature
with thrusters on? If we add the signatures we get -3 - clearly wrong.
We could add the power (0.05 MW + 5 MW = 5.05 MW) and then look up that
on the signature table - and we'd get -1. The scale is so coarse that
just using the largest signature pretty much always works.

Now, what I've done is implicitly assume that power due to HEPlaR is
proportional to ship size (fair enough) and ship size is proportional to 
power plant output (less fair) so that lighting up the HEPlaR always
basically increases your signature by a factor of ten. This isn't
perfectly true because military ships have bigger power to weight
ratios than civilians - but military also have masking (bringing their
sig back down), and anyway the table is so coarse that we only have
to be right to within a factor of 3 or so - so for playability I made the
tradeoff.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:06:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: new sensor packages for QSDS

>For the sake of this month's THUDD, and for QSDS users in general, I've
>come up with a bunch of QSDS-style sensor packages using the new sensor
>rules. Currently only TL-10 is supported.
>I'm interested in working with any shipbuilders who have special needs,
>questions about the sensor rules or questions about sensors in FFS2.

Is there some form of backwards compatibility here?  I want to match up
with the Advanced Military sensor package I installed in my THUDD entry,
but none of your choices are even close in power, volume and price to the
numbers I have.  We're talking major revisions here.

Perhaps there is something I am missing.  I am tempted to submit my THUDDD
entry with sensors as-is and let the jury decide what to do about it.
Maybe it would be best to wait for the next THUDDD to use these new rules?

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:52:32 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)

>I do not buy this argument as this would apply to other signatures as well:
>"If you can detect photons why not use that technology to block the photons
>thus making the ship invisible"
>I know the anology falters due to thermodynamics etc but if one can detect
>say 1 per million neutrino shot off it would be useable for detection but
>not for shielding.

My point wasn't about detection but shielding; the neutrino sensor is much
closer to the sensing ship's power plant than any target, so the signal from
the target will get completely swamped by the signal from its own power
plant, unless you can perfectly shield the sensor from the power plant.
(The same applies to IR photons - you have to have the sensor inside a very
cold enclosure - and as you point out, thermodynamics prevent you from making
the whole ship that cold.)

Anyway, it's a matter of taste and philosophy. Actually, it'd be interesting
to see your neutrino and mass signatures and sensitivities adjusted to 
my range scale - maybe post them as a variant.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:00:39 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

>>> Scene in Zhodani Planetry Defence HQ.
>>> "Okay, so we've got two Darrian ships moving to flank postions on
either side
>>> of our star and another approaching the star at high-G's. Do you think
they
>>> might be up to something?"
>
>>Don't forget, these are extremely fast and/or stealthy *TL16* ships. And
>>they'd  probably have escorts and/or decoys. I wouldn't like to bet my
>>system on being  able to stop them in time.
>
>Sounds like a job for "jump torpedos!" <gd&r>

Think this also depends a lot on whether or not your version of jump drive 
drops you into predefined areas of space or whether popping into another 
system is random. Does your campaign's version of a j-drive always drop a
ship into the same "entry point" in a system? Can you choose your "entry 
point"? Are "entry points" random? The same questions for "exit points".
What about micro jumps; a ship can't jump out of a grav well without 
major problems, what about jumping in? In a campaign that allowed ships
to choose their entry points (to preposition them in the correct spaces about
the star), and to them quickly microjump into range around the star, would
be a campaign in which folks gave the Darrians a wide right of way.

Paul Darius Owensby
pauld@athens.net
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:27:00 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

At 10:52 PM 8/6/97 -0400, Marc wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-06 20:44:19 EDT, (I, I think) write:
>
><< 
> I hope that the Imperium allows easy service jumping or cross training, as
> the various military branches have to work together.
>  >>
>You mean like the US?

More so.  The US is not in the unenviable position of having C3I be months
or years behind the action.  There will be times where Something Must Be
Done, and the right tool for the job is a Marine.  The Navy will know this,
and will either need to have some Marine-trained navy chaps, or will need
to be able to get some Marines under their command.  I could see either,
but I have always liked the idea of any given area being under primary
control of one service, with smaller groups of the others as time, space,
and budget permit.  This would lead (imho) to more inter service crosstalk
and rivalry, unfettered by high command.  Clever high officers would use
the other services around when possible, while foolish ones would snipe
when they do not have to.

In my universe, which is fairly non canonical, most characters who wish to
go into another service are still on the rolls of the initial one, and are
merely counted as seconded.  This requires a new enlistment roll for both
services, representing what your present and your future service thought of
the idea.  Failure is not terribly bad for a person, though, as it is
usually kept quiet.

If your present service says no, but you made a better than average success
on the other's enlistment roll, it means that the other service really
wants you.  You can then switch without penalty, but cannot return to the
old one.

If, on the other hand, both agree, then you are seconded.  You receive a -2
on all promotion rolls, as you must convince both services to give you
rank, but you roll for skills, promotion, etc. on the new services table.
At the end of the term, you roll continuance at -2.  If you make it, then
you stay in the new service, if you fail it, but would have made it without
penalty, you return to the old one, and if you fail, you are out of both.

If you switch, then you have to make a series of promotion rolls as I
described earlier to see how many ranks you lose, but you have no penalties
at all to promotion or continuance.

Practical upshot - a service change often leads to loss of rank, benefits,
seniority, brownie points, and so on, but if you can convince them to
second or switch you, there can be large benefits.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 16:27:56 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Laser Grav Pulse???

Jeff Cornish wrote:
> 
> I prefer to think that gravatic technology works by 'crinkling' the
> space-time fabric.  The 'Force of Gravity' is merely the effect of space
> being curved.  A star (or planet, or pocketwatch for that matter) makes
> a 'dent' in the fabric of space.

<snippp>

 Another matter is why the ship doesn't implode on the laser turret. 
Two
> reasons-artificial gravity fields decay at an exponential rate and
> contragrav devices are used to ''shield" the device from the rest of the
> ship.
> 
> Comments?

I prefer the travelling gravity wave concept to static focusing for one
reason:

What would happen if you mounted one of these puppies you describe on a
bomb, drop it from a plane and hit a city. Just before it hits ground,
kill the "contragrav shield" device.

Grav implosion. Ouch.

I trust BAM's scientific background and reasoning behind his sensor and
laser rules. Like he said, a weak travelling grav pulse makes an easier,
less disruptive handwave than a static, powerful grav focussing effect.

I think a hurdle a lot of people get caught up in is Einstein's analogy
of space being warped like a rubber sheet by mass, and that's what
creates gravity. Then they wonder how dimples are moving without mass
attached! Remember: it's an analogy. It's like saying an electromagnet
warps magnetic-space around it causing dimples on a rubber sheet. He
used the rubbersheet analogy to graphically illustrate the fact that
gravity is inexorably linked to mass. Spacetime is "curved" because mass
exists.

Obviously with things like contra-grav, inertial compensators and
whatnot, Traveller-tech has found a way to create dimples without mass
attached. Why is it such a leap to be able to move the dimples wrt the
source?

Gravitational field effects are similar in many respects to
electromagnetic fields. Gravity is the weakest of the forces, weaker
then electromagnetic fields. It's no wonder we haven't yet discovered
the graviton or measured gravitational waves.

OTOH, physicists may be out to lunch. It boils down to this: What's the
least disruptive, most elegant handwave to explain why we can keep
lasers focussed at such long distances? I like small travelling grav
pulses. As the technology improves and becomes more efficient, repulsor
beams are developed by firing stronger or more rapid bursts...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:10:40 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: new items and math question

Andrew Boulton writes
>Either way, somebody cocked up. I'm not really interested in who, or why, I 
>just want to know that it won't happen again.

Ultimately, IG is at fault. They should have gotten galley proofs from the 
printers and reviewed them themselves. They definitely should have sent
those galley proofs to Guy and Dave for reviewing; and they definitely should'
have had at least one person sit down and try to design a starship with the
galleys.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 23:22:11 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1657

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:34:02 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

>I have really enjoyed working on T41 Chargen, and as it nears =
completion, I
>want to point out the elements that I think are =
important/fun/interesting.
>

>Current university association for Scholars (ie The University of Na Ni =
Po)

Hmmm...  I suspect that this really should be U of Na Ni Po TL7.
TL will make a difference in what subjects are educationally
available, just as it does for trade goods.

>Reintroduction of Cutlasses for Scouts

?  Wasn't it the Marines that had the cutlasses?

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:08:37 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1660

kraehe@bakunin.north.de writes
>        is FFS now quite useless ? your stats dont meet any of mine !
>        I wont like to see DSR-ratings in THUDDD 6, they are created
>        to befuddle buyer by asuming a higher value. Its like 2inch
>        is bigger than 1 meter.

You can convert FFS sensors to the new scale (see part 3 of the
DSR). I would say most THUDD people should at least do that for kicks.
On the other hand, the prices and sizes for a given sensitivity do
vary from FFS to FFS2...it's more "honest" to use FFS2 (If you have it)
or my sensor packages (if you're using QSDS/SSDS) but it's ultimately
the THUDD organizers call. My main purpose was to let QSDS users
use the new sensor scale and options.

>> "don't neglect LIDAR" - a cheap LIDAR will often be able to 
>> get a fire control lock when a medium-sized passive array can't.

>        Is lidar differnt to old ladar ? an L4 (which is maximum
>        for TL<11) has a size of 2.4m3 and cost of 24MCr. I wont
>        call this cheap. So L14 (using your DSR-ratings) would be
>        maximum for TL10. You have L15 lidars here, this would mean
>        a short range of 7 what is posible at TL13 !

LIDAR and LADAR mean the same thing, but the new ones are certainly better; 
I think LIDAR performances were underrated in original FFS (they certainly
should have better perfomance than radar at even moderate tech levels.)
FFS2 does give you more LIDARS at a given tech level...I hadn't realized
how much worse the LIDARs in FFS1 were.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:16:07 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

 
> >10 from the drive plume, I still caught 11 photons at that
> >wavelength.  My detector doesn't care that one was made by the hull
> >and the rest by the drive plume.
> 
> Due to the simple fact that we're dealing with a pretty steep logscale
> max(log(a),log(b) is about the same as a+b, right?
> As the factor for drive, pp etc will change during play we need to
> recalculate them during play; either we calculate them, sum them and log
> them or just take the max of the dominant one. I've tried both versions and
> believe me to the latter is far easier to cope with.

Yeah, I know, I'm just being a geek :-)
 
> Your example of 1 + 10 would be:
> max(log10(10),log10(1)) = 1
> log10(10+1) = 1

Of course, but you'd add up theenergy per unit time emitted and use
the power table in the rules to get the sig.  I never suggested that
you'd add up the log sigs, just that you'd add up the photons.  In
the case of hull radiators for something like a Scout ship (~150MW)
with a 2g drive (~100MW) we have something much different than 10+1.

Actually, we can assume that the exhaust is radiating the 100MW it
uses, and the hull radiators are taking up the 50MW slack, so we'd
just look up the sig for 150MW.  The problem is that the exhaust is
harder to hide than energy lost with the radiators---add to this the
fact that the HEPlaR contains more than the 50MW a g it was given by
the PP, and I'd say it would be at least fair to add them together
and check vs. 250MW.  In this case it won't matter, but in other
cases it might.  I tend to think it'll matter more for powered down
units really trying to have tight emission control. 

For play sake, it makes sense to assume the largest is the one used,
however, I agree with you there.  Otherwise you'd have to keep track
of way too much.  Actually allowing HEPlaR sigs (in their log form)
to add makes sense too, since we know HEPlaR is really a fusion
rocket, and should be 100 times brighter :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:44:42 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

>>however.  The enlistment roll for a second career is subject to a DM of
>>-2, for a third career it is a DM of -3, and so on.  All other DMs,
>>qualifications, and preferences apply."
>
>Yes but under Preferential Enlistment: if two qualifying characteristics at
>least two points above the number necessary for the enlistment difficulty
>modifier may *Automatically* enlist in the career, without making any
roll....
>
>So here what you do enlist in first career boost the stats to auto get you
>into the second career, boost stats again and enlist in third career and so
>on. The minus dm for second and beyond careers is null and void.

Or you simply rule that auto enlistments only apply to first careers; that's 
the assumption I make in Beginnings. Nobles are an exception to that, and
I'm thinking of possibly others, e.g. Scholars. What does the List think?

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:24:05 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Laser Grav Pulse???

> beam performance with this approach the beam as it leaves the gravity field
> has to be tens of meters across, which means the gravity field has to be
> tens of meters across and millions of G's...Which is hard to do. The
> travelling pulse is somewhat more plausible.
> 
> Bruce


How much grav does it take to collapse matter to superdense?  Almost
white dwarf or evenneutron star level gravs.  This technology exists in
Traveller, at least for contained sourses of unimaginably high g,
according to the existence of these materials.

Anyone care to take a wag a the g level needed to collapse matter to
this state?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:34:45 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Wars

Marc Miller wrote:

>This is a very nice beginning synopsis. I'm looking forward to the rest.
>
>Meanwhile, the intent of Nth Interstellar War was to convey that toward the
>end of the period, some groups of worlds were at peace while others continued
>to fight. The Ziru Sirka (or is it Sirkaa?) talked out of several sides of
>its collective mouth, and kept fighting etc.The traditional numbering system
>for wars was used (1-8) or so until it fell apart.
>
>I have been talking with Loren Wiseman about he and I doing the E21 milieu,
>and it would be a natural for us to do the Interstellar Wars after that. I
>believe that a Milieu should be used to reflect on a specific type of play
>and emphasize that. E21 would emphasize the Soalr System and the Grand Story
>of first contacts with the Vilani. The Interstellar Wars would benefit from
>emphasizing space battles and ship design.

Wonderful! I highly recommend that you make this your second "milieu."

I think from the general level of interest on the list, you can see that
many Traveller players are interested in roleplaying in the IW era.

Some considerations you might take into account:

o Design the milieu to cover the entire period of the Interstellar Wars
  (-2408 to -2219 3I, or 2112 to 2301 A.D.), with the technology
  advancement bar listed alongside the timeline. That way, players and
  refs can determine what level the Vilani and Solomani would have
  achieved depending on what year they played in (e.g., -2398, Solomani
  achieve TL 11 with advent of the J-2 drive; -2280, Solomani achieve TL
  12 with advent of the J-3 drive, etc.)

o The types of warfare fought in each war.
    - 1st IW: Commerce raiding by corporate-sponsored ships, brushfire
              wars over small area.
    - 2nd IW: Continued commerce raiding and limited naval engagements
              with brand new Terran navy.
    etc.

o Alien races: One of the things this milieu potentially suffers from
  is a lack of alien races. Develop the Vegans so that they can be used
  in the IW milieu. As far as I can recall, there are very few significant
  alien races in the Solomani Rim, but the Vegans are definitely a standout
  who deserve more attention. Loren was recently involved in an email
  discussion about the Vegans with a couple of us on HIWG, so perhaps
  his interest is piqued!

o Space combat: If you're going to develop space combat in more detail
  for this milieu, please take a long look at TNE's Brilliant Lances. In a
  simplified form, this game could be by far the best Traveller starship
  combat system the game has ever seen.

I can't wait to see what you come up with!

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:43:28 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)

I think this whole thread has great significance to Traveller.  The
rebellion is about these issues and what makes a government or polity
worth fighting for.   Why will people die by the trillions in the late
1100's?  What drives them to fight despite the knowledge they are
dismembering the cow they milk?

Same issues here, just different names of the participants.  

BTW, according to an aquaintance of mine from the Canadian Forces,
Quebec would not "enjoy" the actions Ottowa would take in the event of
aseccession.  Basically similar to aforementioned economic sanctions
with the military stick a DEFINITE possibility. It may not be a US Civil
War, but a lot of people would get crushed. 

 Canadians may be nice and diplomatic, but when it comes down to it
they'll fight if need be.  And that's good-a man should have things he
is willing to fight and possibly die for.  Otherwise nothing is really
very important at all.  Pontification off.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:43:14 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Sensor rules

>>>If you *have* such a way of blocking
>>>neutrinoes, why not just apply it to the power plant so no-one else can
>>>see your neutrinoes?
>
>I do not buy this argument as this would apply to other signatures as well:
>"If you can detect photons why not use that technology to block the photons
>thus making the ship invisible"

And we can, it's called "Build a Really Big Wall" :)


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1661
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1662



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Canucks in Space?  Got that already!
Re: Star Trigger
Re: Second Careers
Re: Canucks in Space?  Got that already!
Who started the Interstellar War etc...
RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll
re: qsds sensors
Re: US Armed Forces... :-) 
Re: Solomani...
15 mm LaserBurn miniatures 4-sale...
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1661
Re: Sparklers
pseudo-mercantilism?
Re: Damn Yankees!
Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
Re:  OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re: Damn Yankees!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:48:00 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Canucks in Space?  Got that already!

Sanders wrote:

>
>> >Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks
>> in >Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p
>>
>>   What would be a better term? :)
>
>Ummm....Canuks in Space...sounds good, but how likely is that to ever be a
>reality? :P~

	Actually, assuming todays shuttle launch wasn't scrubbed, there
_is_ a Canuck in space, right now.  Name is Bjarni Tryggarvson.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 00:39:45 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

*
*
*


S
P
O
I
L
E
R


S
P
A
C
E


*
*
*




On a slightly related topic, what kind of meson beam generator would
be necessary to replicate the ones used in the "UDH Project"?  Since
the ones in the project where moon-based, does this necessarily mean
that they would have to be extremely powerful?  Since damage wasn't
the intent of the meson guns used in the project, might you be able to
get away with a specially designed spinal mount?  Any ideas?

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:03:05 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-07 00:12:22 EDT, you write:
>
> << Disclaimer:  This is not an attack!
>
> Disclaimer accepted. I make the same disclaimer etc.
>
>  CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

[snip]

> Thanks for the feedback.
>
> Marc

<smiling happily at avoided flame fight>

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:56:18 -0600
From: Sanders <kalin@swlink.net>
Subject: Re: Canucks in Space?  Got that already!

At 04:48 PM 8/7/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Sanders wrote:
>
>>
>>> >Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks
>>> in >Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p
>>>
>>>   What would be a better term? :)
>>
>>Ummm....Canuks in Space...sounds good, but how likely is that to ever be a
>>reality? :P~
>
>	Actually, assuming todays shuttle launch wasn't scrubbed, there
>_is_ a Canuck in space, right now.  Name is Bjarni Tryggarvson.
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
>

 Sounds like a passenger to me....
[Sanders]
email=kalin@swlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:06:00 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Who started the Interstellar War etc...

Who started the First Interstellar War?  Choose one:

a)  The Vilani cruised in with their gun ports open (a traditional sign of
openness and friendliness to the Vilani), and were promptly blown to
vapours by the paranoid Terran crew (hmmm...paranoid...choose between
Russians, Israelis and North Koreans).

b)  The crew of the HMAS 'Paul Hogan', having mutinied, go rogue and hail a
passing Vilani merchant, demanding that they 'heave to, prepare to be
boarded and hand over all yer beer, women and Pauline Hanson posters'.

c)  There was no war...it was all a Hiver manipulation...

d)  all of the above


All this talk 'bout the Quebec/Canada/US debate brings to mind the idiots
here who still believe us Western Australians, a state with less than two
million people with a land area almost half of the continental US, can go
it alone.  Admittedly, Australia is run by morons, crooks and self-serving
cowards (both parties)...but then again, who isn't?

Now, my idea was much better...if it all worked out you'd be now talking to
the Minister for Nachos, People's Republic of Fremantle....(muhahaha)...

Sorry



Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:01:30 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll

At 10:35 AM 8/6/97 +0200, you wrote:
>[snip]
>> > Hydrographic Percentage (2D-7+atmosphere)
>> > 
>> > Is this correct? In my CT/MT/TNE books the roll is:
>> > 
>> > Hydrographic (2D-7+SIZE)
>> > 
>> > So.....is the T4 version of the hydrographic roll correct?
>> 
>> I thought it has always been 26-7+atmosphere as the denser the
>> atmosphere the more water there is likely to be.
>> 
>
> No, it has ALWAYS been 2D6-7+Size until T4 came out.
>
>

According to CT Book 3 that I have, on page 7 it is 2D-7+atmosphere, and on
page 12 it is 2D-7+size.
According to the CT Traveller Book it is 2D-7+atmosphere on page 82, and
2D-7+size on page 85.

According to MT Ref Manual, page 24, it is 2D-7+size.

So, NO it has NOT "ALWAYS been 2D6-7+Size until T4 came out."  This error
has been there since the beginning and just not been pointed out until now.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:53:53 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: qsds sensors

Peter H. Brenton writes
>Is there some form of backwards compatibility here?  I want to match up
>with the Advanced Military sensor package I installed in my THUDD entry,
>but none of your choices are even close in power, volume and price to the
>numbers I have.  We're talking major revisions here.

The compatibility is limited, unfortunately; in particular the new
sensors tend to occupy a lot more volume than old ones. (The other 
numbers are all within the same order of magnitude, at least - my
medium mil is three times as much power, 5 times the cost but half the
area of T4. Maybe I could tweak things to match T4 numbers a little
better (figure out what I can fit into the same area as the QSDS ones...)
(Is "Advanced Military a SSDS sensor? I don't own "Starships" so I
tried to match QSDS more.)

>Perhaps there is something I am missing.  I am tempted to submit my THUDDD
>entry with sensors as-is and let the jury decide what to do about it.
>Maybe it would be best to wait for the next THUDDD to use these new rules?
That would be fair enough - I'm sure the jury will be capable of
mentally switching back and forth. You can always use a QSDS/SSDS
sensor and rate it on the new scale with the conversion rules...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:05:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Re: US Armed Forces... :-) 

> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 23:26:14 -0500
> From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
> Subject: Re: Second Careers
> 
> If you tell them to "secure the building",
> 
>   The NAVY will turn out the lights and lock the doors,
>   the ARMY will occupy the building and set up a command center,
>   the MARINES will capture the building and defend it with suppressive
>     fire,
>   and the AIR FORCE will take out a 3-year lease with and option to buy.

(ahem)...

A wise old Master Sergeant once gave me this bit of wisdom.  
I thought I'd share it with you all.  

In the Marines, the officers and enlisted are the first to hit the beach.  
In the Army, the officers and enlisted hold onto whatever the Marines have
conquered (excuse me, I meant to say "secured" :-).  
In the Navy, the officers and enlisted are aboard ship offshore, within
range of combat.  
In the Air Force, the enlisted escort the officers to the planes, salute
smartly as the officers take off to fly to the combat zone, and return to
the NCO Club to "guard the base."  

Franklin W. Cain
former Staff Sergeant (E-5), USAF

(BTW, my specific career category in the Air Force was "Computer
Programmer." They *have* to air condition the buildings that contain 
computer equipment! :-)  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:12:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: Re: Solomani...

> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 03:46:01 -0800
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
> Subject: Re:  OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 

> Yes and I have always found it strange that more Traveller players are
> not more sympathetic towards the Solomani.  After all, almost all
> Traveller players are 100% Solomani.                   ^^^^^^^^^^

"Almost all"?  

"*ALMOST* all"?...  

If you've got proof that this should be "almost all" instead of just 
plain "all," then the tabloids should be offering you extreme amounts 
of money!...  :-) 

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:25:15 -0600
From: Sanders <kalin@swlink.net>
Subject: 15 mm LaserBurn miniatures 4-sale...

I've the following 15 mm LaserBurn miniatures form the U.K. for sale. 

They are unopened in the original blister-packs, and are of better quality
than the firgures produced by Martian Metals. 

They are $5.00 each, and payment needs to be either a Check or Money Order.
Postage paid within the US, outside the US postage is an additional $2.00
per order.

Buy five packs and receive the sixth free.

*** I will only hold your order ONE WEEK. If your payment isn't here by
then, then I will sell it to the next individual in line. ***

LB-2: "Adventurers with Small Arms" (12 per pack)
LB-3: "Adventurers Heavily Armed"   ( "       " )
LB-4: "Thugs"                       ( "       " )
LB-5: "Adventurers in Space Suits"  ( "       " )
LB-6: "Starship Crew"               ( "       " )
LB-8: "Imperial Marine Officers"    ( "       " )
LB-10: "Imperial Body Guards"       ( "       " )
LB-14: "Rebels"                     ( "       " )
LB-16: "Assault Trike"              (4 trikes with drivers and 4 loose rebels)
LB-17: "Rebel War-Lords"            (12 per pack)
LB-18: "Civilians"                  ( "       " )
LB-19: "Imperial Vehiles Crew"      ( "       " )

Contact me for more info.

Thanks,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 23:21:48 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1661

Chris Griffen wrote:

> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:34:45 -0700
> From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Wars
>
> Marc Miller wrote:
>
> >This is a very nice beginning synopsis. I'm looking forward to the
> rest.
> >
> >Meanwhile, the intent of Nth Interstellar War was to convey that
> toward the
> >end of the period, some groups of worlds were at peace while others
> continued
> >to fight. The Ziru Sirka (or is it Sirkaa?) talked out of several
> sides of
> >its collective mouth, and kept fighting etc.The traditional numbering
> system
> >for wars was used (1-8) or so until it fell apart.
> >
> >I have been talking with Loren Wiseman about he and I doing the E21
> milieu,
> >and it would be a natural for us to do the Interstellar Wars after
> that. I
> >believe that a Milieu should be used to reflect on a specific type of
> play
> >and emphasize that. E21 would emphasize the Soalr System and the
> Grand Story
> >of first contacts with the Vilani. The Interstellar Wars would
> benefit from
> >emphasizing space battles and ship design.
>
> Wonderful! I highly recommend that you make this your second "milieu."
>
> I think from the general level of interest on the list, you can see
> that
> many Traveller players are interested in roleplaying in the IW era.
>

<Snippage of good ideas>

> o Space combat: If you're going to develop space combat in more detail
>
>   for this milieu, please take a long look at TNE's Brilliant Lances.
> In a
>   simplified form, this game could be by far the best Traveller
> starship
>   combat system the game has ever seen.
>
> I can't wait to see what you come up with!
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Griffen

<Bandwidth trimming>

I agree with Chris' opinion that this would be a great second Millieu,
to potential for adventure is at one of it's peaks in Traveller history
at this time IMHO.

One point about space combat, however. Since Traveller has always been
one of the most inovative S.F. games I'm surprised at the lack of role
playing rules for space comabt. Since High Guard (Hat's off please!) the
emphysis in Traveller has been on multi ship combat, even the turn
outline in T$ reflects this. Somewhere on the internet I've seen role
playing rules for first person ship operation, and I assume, combat (I
lost the adress of the site, so if anyone has it please let me know!).
My point is that usually my players are all travelling in one ship. Wehn
combat occurs, I take on the role of one or more opposing ships. Now,
typically what happens is that the  most combat oriented of the players
takes control of the player's ship and we two duke it out. The other
players kibitz or drift into the other room to watch the tube. When the
combat is done, they come back, sometimes reluctantly if a good movie
was on, adjust their characters for damage and pick the game back up.
For this reason, I've virtually stopped using ship to ship encounters at
all, (sadly since a good customs boarding can be fun, but I don't want
possible combat to drag down the game).

Has anyone else seen this problem ?
What have you done to correct it?
What are the chances of seeing a good set of first person ship operation
and combat rules for T$ in the future?
I've recently began to think about Fasa's old (gasp!) Star Trek rules,
which I think used First person ship operations. Now if I still have
that book around....

Mike Peters

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  8 Aug 97 03:44:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Sparklers

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:02:27 MET, GREI5001@uni-trier.de Wrote...

>> What the hell are 'sparklers'? Are they the same as that
>> supertechnological race from Knightfall - the ones that preceded
>> the Ancients?
> Yep! They are the same... for more info consult DGP's MTJ4, the
> section of things planned, but never realized!
    Howabout you tell us some more, for those of us who don't have DGP's MTJ4
;) It always kind of bugged me that all the interesting stuff for MT was in DGP
publications that were frigging near impossible to find. :(

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:06:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: pseudo-mercantilism?

>So - does the Imperium force Zeta to become independent?  Does it hand it
>over to either Alpha or Beta for sole rule?  When a minor famine hits Zeta
>and the more-populous Beta decides to grab all of the crop for the year,
>how does the Imperium react?  Does the Imperium act immediately>  Does it
>wait until Alpha sends a military force to occupy Zeta?

>Any thoughts?
Hello,
  It sounds like this sort of situation is easily resolved in the
structure of the Imperium, at least in the long-term. Neither world
will be allowed to control the agri-world, as the trend to mercantilism
and mini-empires harms the Imperium. If trade is good for the 3I then 
any major world having true captive markets or directly controlled
reource worlds undercuts the revenue of the 3I, those planets loyalty
to it, and reduces the flexibility of the entire surrounding community
of trading worlds.

  This hardly begins to touch on the potential security threat of such
local hegemonies, especially as they may clash with each other, and
some will very likely develop their own expansionist tendencies. One
item that would need clarification is the Imperiums view of indirectly
controlled worlds, especially if used as pawns in a tradewar.

  Anyways, starvation hardly seems likely for a world with exports;
buy, borrow, and import. If economics drives everything, then while
finding a way to profit from a situation may be difficult, it is
rarely impossible.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 21:28:20 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Damn Yankees!

Lewis Roberts wrote:

> >Specifically, "Yank" or "Yankee" refers to Americans that live in the
> New
> >England states..or generically to any citizens of the north or
> midwestern
> >states.
>
> I am from Connecticut and don't call me a Yankee, I am a Red Sox fan.
>
> :)

I live in Boston and am from Texas.  In Boston I'm a redneck.  In Dallas I'm a Yankee.
To call all US Yanks is a major insult to Suth'ners.  I'd watch it aroud
them.  Remember those crackers shot first.

BTW:  Left-coasters are referred to as various things that make up trail
mix: nuts and fruit (although the latter is much less common these days)
as well as freaks, weirdos, etc..

So, in sum, we've got (for the white population anyway)

Yankees - Northeast-Mid-Atlantic States

Crackers - Deep South, ex-Confederacy

Rednecks - Plains States and Southwest (may include Texas, which is
separated from  the Crackers by Hillbillies and Cajuns, although Texans
are virtually their own category)

Hillbillies - From the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri to the
Appalachians

Cajuns - (Descendant's of French Canadians I think) A world unto
themselves

Assorted Nuts - West Coast

(Crackers, Rednecks and Hillbillies can be collectively referred to as
Hicks - which can also used for anyone from rural areas through out the
US, but in this usage it is mutually exclusive with Yank.  For a non-US
to refer to an Okie as a Redneck Yank would be fine, but to call him a
Hick Yank wouldn't make much sense)

Thus, the simplest three categories would be Yanks, Hicks and Weirdos.

Bloo
(Part Redneck, Part Yank, All Smart Ass)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:33:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale) wrote:

>>Actually, I take the opposite view. If America dies, it will because a
>>minority becomes overcome by a conspirational fervor, and believes that
>>government is "out to get them" "oppress the people" and take away their
>>"God given rights and freedoms". The countryside becomes fractured by
>>guerrilla fighting, cities become staging grounds for terrorist attacks.
>>I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

>It sounds as though you've been watching too much "Clinton News
>Network" aka CNN.  Oh sure, there are a few nutcases here and there, 
>but even the so-called "militia movements" consists of a bunch of basically
>law-abiding people concerned about civil liberties.  Americans have far
>more to fear from people who blow the threat of so-called "right-wing
>terrorism" out of proportion and then take away freedoms in the name of
>"national security".

Harold, you have interesting & useful things to say about Traveller, but
please cut the politics.  I disagree very strongly with almost everything
you have said, but I am (with effort) avoiding responding to it, because I
don't want to embroil the TML in only of the many internet
Libertarian&Guns flamewars.  *Please* take this to email. 

For the record, not all US citizens approve of militias or oppose strict
gun control. 

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
- -Flaming Liberal and Proud of it

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:35:55 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re:  OT American Civil War (was Re: Canada) 

Peter Newman writes: 

>This is a bit inacurate.  If you mean that rivalry between the states
>has not resulted in troop hobilizations since 1865 I believe you are
>correct. If you mean ultimate federal authority is not questioned by the
>_states_ to the point of mobilizing troops you are ignoring various
>charming events (occuring mostly in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's) that
>were part of the oppostion to the Civil Rights movement. Perhaps some of
>you out there recall George Wallace standing in the doorway to the
>University of Missippi and sying (basically) that this is a white
>university and will stay one.

   Mr. Wallace was an Alabama man.  I do recall an incident during the
Kennedy Administration when the National Guard was called out in a state
(Mississippi I think) to prevent a black woman from attending what had
been an all-white college.  President Kennedy promptly nationalized the
troops (as was his perogative as Commander-in-Chief) and brought them
under Federal control.

   True enough, localized incidents involving state National Guard units
have taken place, but when the Federal government intervened, the
National Guard yielded to Federal authorities.

> If you mean ultimate federal authority over the states is unquestioned
>in general by the _states_ you are ignoring vast ammounts of legal
>precedent in which the states sue the Federal government and say "You
>can't do that because you do not have the Constitutional right to do
>so."

   I believe you are referring to the issue of unfunded mandates (the
Federal government forces states to institute programs and then provides
no funding for them).  While that is of questionable constitutionality,
the Supreme Court had no problem with the Federal government forcing
states to enact laws (i.e. the 21 drinking age) by threating to withold
Federal funds.

>  Lately the Supreme Court has been backing them up (sometimes). 
>Something about the 10th Ammendment I believe....

   This amendment, like the others (particularly the 1st and 2nd) have
had numerous interpretations and re-interpretations applied to them. 
Today, the Federal government has a broad range of powers (no small
thanks to Bill Clinton) that allow them to seize control of your
property without compenstation in the name of "The War On Drugs", the
"wetlands" or whatever excuse some bureaucrat can think up.

>In my not so humble opinion the North acted in a way that was blatantly
>illegal and Lincoln violated the US Constitution in an unforgivable
>way.  Moreover I would like to point out that neither historians nor
>Americans in general agree that:
> "From our perspective, the American Civil War was as bloody as it was 
> because regional issues were allowed to take prescedent over national 
> interest." 

   And who was it that fired upon the Federal garrison at Fort Sumter? 
Who seized Federal arsenals and other Federal property for the purpose
of making war against the central government?  That's *sedition*, and
reason enough for Federal authorities to bring full military force to
bear against those committing the aggressions.  Claims that the 10th
admendment makes it all OK ring hollow in the face of criminal (some
would argue treasonous) activities.

>I would suggest that the American Civil War (alternately The War Between
>The States) occured because the North illegally attempted to prohibit
>the southern states from leaving _As_was_their_right_to_do_so [IMNSHO].

   The Constitution of the U.S. in *no way* guarantees the right of any
state to nullify Federal laws within their particular boundaries, nor
does it grant the right to any state to secede, period.

>(If you disagree the proof I require to convince me otherwise would
>consist of words in the US Constittion (circa 1861) saying that states
>do not have the right to secede and _NO_ such text exists.  The 10th
>Ammendment once again applies - the power to stop states from leaving
>was not reserved for the federal government and therefore it was
>reserved to the states.)

   Of course no such text exists, but that doesn't mean that the 10th
admendment therefore applies either.  It was *never* the intention of
Madison, Jefferson, Washington, et al. that any state have the ability
to pull out from the union just because things weren't going their way. 
The Constitution was suppose to provide for a *stronger* central
government, not a *weaker* one.

>> We have no desire to let that happen again.
>
>You're not from the South I take it :)

   Born in Kentucky (as was Lincoln and Davis, the leaders of the North
and South during the Civil War), and raised in Ohio.  While I respect
men such as Lee, Stuart, Jackson, Longstreet, et al., at the same time I
recognise that the cause they fought for was in support of slavery and
the ultimate division of the United States.  Those ideas could not
allowed to win out in the end.

>Also ObTrav - Nor should we assume that governments are now constituted
>as they were one or two hundred years ago.  Nor should we assume that
>the popular view of the "legitemacy" of a government (whether Imperial
>or US Federal) is correct. 

   Something goes terribly wrong with the public perception of the
Imperial government by 1116, otherwise Dulinor would have been hunted
down and killed for his actions against Strephon.   

>Yes and I have always found it strange that more Traveller players are
>not more sympathetic towards the Solomani.  After all almost all
>Traveller players are 100% Solomani. 

   When it is apparent that some of your descendents favor a system of
government that is more or less subtlely totalitarian in nature, you
tend to cheer for the other side...
 
Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:51:51 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

Erwin Fritz writes:

>Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
>>>   Within five years the other Atlantic coast provinces opt out and join
>>>the U.S., as a increasingly isolationist and hostile Quebec makes it
>>>difficult for the central government on maintain contact with its
>>>eastern fringe.
> 
>> You have heard of telephones, right? If you haven't, they're these marvellous
>> machines that would let a central government keep contact with its
>> "eastern fringe" no matter who's in the way.
> 
>
>Besides, with that kind of logic, Alaska should have joined Canada
>a long time ago.

  Actually, I've heard some minor rumblings from Alaska regarding the
possibility of going it alone.  Nothing serious, but I think it would
make a butt kicking near future novel.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:03:03 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Damn Yankees!

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
<SNIP>
 
> So, in sum, we've got (for the white population anyway)
> 
> Yankees - Northeast-Mid-Atlantic States
> 
> Crackers - Deep South, ex-Confederacy
> 
> Rednecks - Plains States and Southwest (may include Texas, which is
> separated from  the Crackers by Hillbillies and Cajuns, although Texans
> are virtually their own category)
> 
> Hillbillies - From the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri to the
> Appalachians
> 
> Cajuns - (Descendant's of French Canadians I think) A world unto
> themselves
> 
> Assorted Nuts - West Coast

Then there's them what falls somewhere in the middle.  Imagine my
surprise after joining the (US)Navy and finding out I was a southern
midwestern yankee who came from out west back east depending on who I
was talking to.  (Shame on me!  I mean, 'to whom I was talking.' ;-) ) 
I spent a few months in Idaho and found out that anything east of the
Mississippi is considered the east coast.  Funny how point of view
changes things.  Then we got to Scotland, and the bartender says he
can't detect a difference between my accent and that of my Texan friend,
who _did_ have a well-developed drawl.  Of course, that third pint may
have blurred things a bit :).

Matt McL

	Mostly Irish, all American!

- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1662
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1663



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: US Armed Forces... :-)
re: yanks
Re: Second Careers
Starting the Interstellar Wars
Re: Star Trigger
Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size
Stretchers 
Re: Solomani...
Re: M: -25 C
Grav-focussed lasers
Re: Damn Yankees!
Auction Update #11: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)
Re: Polyhedra
Martial Arts in T4.1?
Re: Sensor rules
More Interstellar Wars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:20:30 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: US Armed Forces... :-)

Franklin W. Cain wrote:
> 
> (ahem)...
> 
> A wise old Master Sergeant once gave me this bit of wisdom.
> I thought I'd share it with you all.
> 
> In the Marines, the officers and enlisted are the first to hit the beach.

I always found it amusing that a Marine considers it an insult to talk
about the Navy carrying them places to do the fighting.  Personally, I
rather preferred it that way.  That's one reason I _like_ Marines.  To
say nothing of respecting them.  (Just don't let that last bit get out
;-).

> In the Army, the officers and enlisted hold onto whatever the Marines have
> conquered (excuse me, I meant to say "secured" :-).
> In the Navy, the officers and enlisted are aboard ship offshore, within
> range of combat.

With warm meals and bunks. :)

> In the Air Force, the enlisted escort the officers to the planes, salute
> smartly as the officers take off to fly to the combat zone, and return to
> the NCO Club to "guard the base."
> 
> Franklin W. Cain
> former Staff Sergeant (E-5), USAF

Now that has a certain charm.  Send the officers off to fight the war. 
To bad it couldn't be the officers and enlisted sending the politicians
off to fight it. 

> 
> (BTW, my specific career category in the Air Force was "Computer
> Programmer." They *have* to air condition the buildings that contain
> computer equipment! :-)

Ah, yes.  Like the sonar and nav equipment spaces on the boat, where
they had to where sweaters on watch, and still took showers before and
after watch, leaving no hot water for those of us who worked in the
80-degree plus engine room.  And yes, I'll have a bit of cheese with
that whine.  A nice Brie, perhaps. ;)

Oh, yes Traveller.  Well, to secure the building, the SCOUTS would
investigate from a distance, interdict the area to minimize disturbance,
and perform an in-depth analysis of the political and economic
ramifications of admitting it to the Imperium.

Matt McL

- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:10:11 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: yanks

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>Specifically, "Yank" or "Yankee" refers to Americans that live in the New
>England states..or generically to any citizens of the north or midwestern
>states.  Just as you shouldn't call Scotsmen or a Welshmen, English, you
>shouldn't refer to *all* Americans as Yanks.  I had intended my comment to
>be taken as a joke, but, if you like, you can think of it as defending our
>trademarks.  ;->

Specifically, I think you'll find that the above is true *if* you're
American.  :-)

Outside of the US the distinction is blurred and 'yank' *tends* to
generically mean 'American'.


"Most People" (?) know, however, that it's mildly derogatory in the same
way that calling an Englishman a 'limey' (or indeed a 'whinging pom') is.

I can supply a dictionary reference that says just this if anyone really
cares.  But it's certainly been my experience Travelling some 30 odd
countries.

tc
"Past master at whinging like a pom."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:18:16 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Second Careers

>Ex-Rogues can't join the military or become Agents. OTOH, someone who
>gets a Soc boost may now qualify as a Noble.

Whoa, surely ex-Rogues could become sojer boys (if only via the "join
up or get a nice wardrobe with pretty arrows on it" variety of draft,
or even the normal variety now I think of it) and certainly become
agents (eg. the Stainless Steel Rat)?

Transfer to the Noble career sounds excellent, although presumably
those who gain their patents as a result of service or achievment
would be expected to continue to do their Emperor proud?

A more realistic (but more complicated) method may be to have
unfavourable enlistment modifiers between some careers, eg. a Noble
finds it harder to become a Rogue than to become a Scholar.  Its very
hard to see that any career could be absolutely barred on the basis of
a previous career.


Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:27:02 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Starting the Interstellar Wars

Hi there

There was an adventure in a Challenge mag regarding the start of the
IWs by Dunc Law-Green.  I think he outlined the idea that while some
factions of the UN/some Terran Nations or factions therein were
actively trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement with Vland, there
were Hawks who provoked the war (or maybe reacted strongly to Vilani
provocation).  The cited reasons included "stalling" by Vilani, which
of course the Vilani would view as being cautious.

I'll see if I can dig out my copy of the adventure tonight.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:32:15 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger

>*
>*
>*
>
>
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>
>
>S
>P
>A
>C
>E
>
>
>*
>*
>*
>
>
>
>
>On a slightly related topic, what kind of meson beam generator would
>be necessary to replicate the ones used in the "UDH Project"?  Since

I seem to recall AM8 saying that the meson beams were being used to
communicate with the probes - although a stellar atmosphere they may
still need to be relatively powerful.  Also, the experimenters weren't
intending to set it off "it just went off in me hand, your honour", so
perhaps the Darrian Confederation either want to make sure, or want to
impress, or assumed that a powerful meson beam is needed.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size

  What folks are overlooking in the debate about size is that the Classic
400T SDB is not TL10 - can't remember off hand, but I seem to recall that
it was at least TL12, if not more.  I know that does not sound like much,
but the gravitic focus laser jump at TL11 means that TL10 SDBs either
carry big bay weapons or missiles - no laser turrets.  The Classic SDB
carries two missile bays and two triple laser turrets - under current
Traveller ship design rules you really can't duplicate a ship like that at
TL10.

  Based on my fiddles several months ago with low tech SDBs, designed as
opponents for the Merc and Patrol Cruiser THUDDDs, TL10 SDBs should be
larger, esp. if they are going to use anything but missiles.  TL10 sensors
are expensive, and it only makes sense to wrap those sensors with more
armor and firepower, at least in my opinion.  YMMV, of course.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:09:52 +0100
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Stretchers 

Hi there

Can anyone tell me the typical size of a normal field-stretcher?  I
could have a good guess, but I'd like to get a correct answer.  The
reason I ask is that I'm writng up a Trav description of an LSTAT,
which is a life support and trauma unit for use on the battlefield,
and is described in the New Scientist article I read about it in as
"the same length and width as a normal stretcher" which isn't very
precise.  Basically, you pop your casualty on this thing, plug them
in, and it provides early stabilisation and life support on the way
back from the front.

Please use direct email to reply, unless you have info which may
interest the list as a whole (ie. more than just the stretcher
dimensions).

Thanks

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:59:33 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani...

Franklin W. Cain wrote

>  Peter Newman wrote

> >  I have always found it strange that more Traveller players are
> > not more sympathetic towards the Solomani.  After all, almost all
> > Traveller players are 100% Solomani.                   ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> "Almost all"?  
> 
> "*ALMOST* all"?...  
> 
> If you've got proof that this should be "almost all" instead of just 
> plain "all," then the tabloids should be offering you extreme amounts 
> of money!...  :-) 

Well it is not actual proof per se but a few months ago on the list we
were talking about the fact that Sumer must have been a lost Vilani
colony or Vilani names would not sound Sumerian.

Some list members presumably have Summerian anscestors and are therefore
_not_ 100% Solomani.  However since we have not yet realized the extent
of the Vilani colonization & infiltration of our fair planet this will
be hard to prove, thus the tabloids are not offering me any money.  :(

I think the tabloids would use a title somthing like "Romans from Outer
Space ! - since their audience has not heard of Summerians but may have
heard of Romans, if only from old movies.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:11:39 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: M: -25 C

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>   BTW, what is the minimum heredity for Solomani citizenship?

In M -25C, there isn't one -- but there hasn't been much 
interbreeding, so by and large Solomani communities are wholly 
Solomani, tho' decreasingly so with time and distance from Terra.

In M1100, since the Solomani party is rather Nazi-like in its views 
on race, it's not unreasonable for 1 Vilani grandparent to make you 
non-pure Solomani.  Perhaps 1 Solomani grandparent makes you 
noticably and acceptably Solomani.

> Or is it a cultural thing? I mean, like what if you're Scottish?
> Does the sheep blood count?  :)
>   No flames please. I mean that - b-a-a-a-ck off.
>         Have fun,
>                 Steven Hudson (1/16th+ sheep)

Hey, yoo, can yer mammy sew?  Get her tae stitch this!

[Anachronistic meson gun fire snipped.]

You must be thinking of the Welsh ;-)

ObCanada: Or do I mean Newfoundlanders?


Nick Munn (1/8 + some Irish)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:57:21 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Grav-focussed lasers

I know this is a rather, um, syncretist idea (read: utter heresy 
which will have the RCCC after me) but actually I'd rather like 
lasers to have much shorter ranges... then we could go back to 
having small ship-to-ship missiles, and fusion guns, and... y'know, 
old stuff like that.

The major advantage of grav focussing IMO is that it would allow much 
higher energy densities than conventional lenses, which absorb energy 
from the laser pulse, and also the focussing of inconvenient 
frequencies like X-rays.  Thus, the grav-focussed laser is noticeably 
better than the non-focussed but not a whole new technology.

Corrections to the above paragraph will be, well, not exactly welcomed, 
but listened to attentively.

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 03:07:42 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Damn Yankees!

Matt McLaughlin wrote

> Steve Daniels wrote:

> > So, in sum, we've got (for the white population anyway) 
> > Yankees - Northeast-Mid-Atlantic States 
> > Crackers - Deep South, ex-Confederacy 
> > Rednecks - Plains States and Southwest (may include Texas although  > > Texans are virtually their own category) 
> > Hillbillies - From the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri to the
> > Appalachians 
> > Cajuns - (Descendant's of French Canadians I think) A world unto
> > themselves 
> > Assorted Nuts - West Coast
> 
> Then there's them what falls somewhere in the middle.  Imagine my
> surprise after joining the (US)Navy and finding out I was a southern
> midwestern yankee who came from out west back east depending on who I
> was talking to.  (Shame on me!  I mean, 'to whom I was talking.' ;-) ) 
> I spent a few months in Idaho and found out that anything east of the
> Mississippi is considered the east coast.

[Sarcasm mode on !]

No anything east of the _Rocky Mountains_ is the east.  Of course none
of these distinctions you are talking about really matter. The only
distinction that really counts in US politics is that between Alaska and
the Lower 48 [The 48 contiguous US states- Hawaii does not count].  I
forget what the official motto of the state is but I can assure you that
the unofficial motto of the State of Alaska is

 "We don't give a da** about what they do in the lower 48."  

Similarly anything below 55 degrees north is the south and Canada is the
country to the southeast of the United States. :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 07:08:31 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #11: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Rules:   Update 8/8/97  -  07:00 EDT         

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) going x2

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x2
        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net     

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        Buyout - $40.00 - gone
        
GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $38.00 cgriffen@cisco.com (8/7)
        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com 
        $34.00 pnewman@alaska.net
                
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/8)
        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com 
        
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/5) going x2

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net (8/5) going x2

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $ 8.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7)
        $ 6.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
        $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net 
        
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5) going x2
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        
TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $15.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/5) going x2
        $15.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com (8/5) going x2

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net (8/5) going x2
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7)
        $10.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
        

Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7)
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net (8/5) going x2
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5) going x2

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 7.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7)
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz (8/8)
        $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x2
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $13.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
        $10.00 egc@northnet.org (8/7)
        $ 9.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
                
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/5) going x2
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/5) going x2
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net (8/5) going x2

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz (8/8)
        $10.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us 
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:33:08 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

- ----------
> From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> I am trying to figure out a way to use this bit of trivia in my Traveller
> game (a bit easier for me since I don't run a "canon" universe). Would it be
> possible to build a reasonable technological society without a real
> understanding of atoms, electrons or molecules...?


What makes you think, that we have a true understanding of what they are now?
We only really know how they act in certain circumstances.

Eric Freitas
Class 1
607 NW 27th Ave
Ocala  FL  34475
USA

edf@atlantic.net
ph: 352 629 5020

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  8 Aug 97 12:33:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Martial Arts in T4.1?

Hey Marc!
    I can be slow on occassion but I get there eventually.  Since you are
rewriting T4 can you Finally, PLEASE!  Fix the problems with Martial Arts and
put in a system to handle them?  Something like that issue of the JoTAS did for
CT would be Wonderful.
    It's always bugged me that Traveller simply falls apart on this point and
invariable with each new incarnation of the rules I've had to fudge up a fix.
So please put in a decent system to handle it in some way.

Thanks in Advance,

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:40:20 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Sensor rules

>And we can, it's called "Build a Really Big Wall" :)

A really big really COOL wall (about 3K) :)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 01:18:07 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: More Interstellar Wars

As promised, the 6th through Nth Interstellar Wars.

The Sixth Interstellar War (2221AD to 2231AD)
The 6th War opened with a Vilani attempt to outflank the Terrans. Their
initial offensive was launched from the Vega subsector using a deep space
refueling depot to extend the range of their fleet, enabling them to attack
Lagash directly from Shulgiasu. This strategy did catch the Terrans off
guard, who had expected any attack to fall in the Dingir Subsector. Lagash
fell in late 2221AD, but the Vilani strategy proved to be deeply flawed. The
Vilani attempted to push on toward Ishimshulgi and Nusku, but their supply
lines were totally dependent on the deep space depot and they could never
gather sufficent forces to reduce Ishimshulgi, and in 2223AD the Terrans
forced them back to Lagash. Lagash was to prove to be a weaping sore in the
Vilani war effort during the 6th War. The Terrans never made a concerted
effort to retake the world, but were well contented to just bleed off Vilani
strength as they tried to hold. Eventually the Vilani recognised the futility
of this front and in 2228AD they withdrew from Lagash.
However, in the meantime, events had not remained static on other fronts. In
2224AD the Terrans launched an offensive into the Dingir Subsector. This
offensive was aimed directly at the Vilani provincial capital at Gashidda.
Shuruppak and Enki Kalamma both fell in 2224AD and the Terran gathered their
strength for an assault on Gashidda itself. The Siege of Gashidda lasted for
most of 2225AD and into 2226AD before the world finally fell to the Terrans,
but not before the Terrans had suffered significant losses. With Gashidda
secured, the Terrans drove deeper into Vilani territory. Shilgiili and
Kinunir fell in 2227AD, and Shulgi and Meshan in 2228AD. However with the
Vilani withdrawl from Lagash in 2228AD, they were able to significantly
reinforce the Dingir front in late 2228AD. The overstretched Terrans were
unable to hold their gains and by 2230AD the Vilani had retaken Shilgiili,
Kinunir and Shulgi. By this stage the war had taken a heavy toll on both
sides and the more moderate elements in both camps were calling for a peace
treaty. A treaty was negotiated in 2231AD with the Terrans retaining Enki
Kalamma, Shuruppak, and Meshan; and the Vilani regaining Gashidda.

Seventh Interstellar War (2237AD to 2244AD)
The end of the 6th War proved to be only a brief respite as both sides
furiously rebuilt their strength. The period between the 6th and 7th Wars
was more like an uneasy truce than a time of peace. Both sides engaged in
frequent raids and there were numerous skirmishes during this period. In
2237AD the expected 7th War finally started. The opening move was a Vilani
attack on Enki Kalamma. The world fell in late 2237AD and the Vilani drove on
to Shuruppak, which fell in 2238AD. Iilike was the next Vilani target. By
this stage however, the Terran defence was starting to stiffen significantly.
Iilike held until 2239AD when the Vilani abandoned the siege to meet a Terran
offensive towards Apishal. Apishal and Zaggisi fell to the Terrans in 2239AD.
From there the Terrans drove on to Karkhar with the aim of reopening a link
to Meshan. Karkhar fell in 2240AD, but by now the Vilani had transfered
enough forces to hold the line. However they did not anticipate the rate at
which the Terrans could shift the weight of their offensive and in 2241AD the
Terrans were on the offensive again using Iilike as a base. Faced with
presure on two front and with the Terran technological advantage becoming
quite marked by now, the Vilani buckled. In 2242AD the Terrans retook
Shuruppak, Enki Kalamma and Shilgiili. The Terrans had finally learnt the
leasons of the 5th and 6th Wars and were careful not to overextend themselves
again. The war settled down to another prolonged attritional struggle were
the traditional Terran commerce raiding tactics wore down the Vilani will to
continue the war. The war was to drag on like this for another 2 years before
the Vilani finally yelded and ceded the trailing half of the Dingir Subsector
to the Terrans in 2244AD.

Eighth Interstellar War (2266AD to 2269AD)
The 7th War was followed by the so called "Long Peace". Both sides had been
heavily drained by the efforts of the 6th and 7th Wars; and neither was keen
to renew hostilities quickly. However, this lengthy period of peace was to
favour the Terrans far more than the Vilani. With the relative stability of
the Long Peace. Substaintial colonies were established to rimward, the former
Vilani worlds were absorbed into the mainstream of the Confederation and most
importantly; industry was rationalised and the technological advances of the
previous 150 years fully utilised for the first time.
Finally however the 8th War came in 2266AD. The war opened with a Vilani
attack on Karkhar. The attack proved to be misjudged. The Terran defences
were far stronger than the Vilani had anticipated and the Vilani forces were
badly lead. In 2267AD the Terrans launched their counter-offensive. Shulgi and
Kinunir fell quickly in 2267AD. Launching a faint towards Gashidda, the
Terrans turned and siezed Dingir in 2267AD. This threw the Vilani into
confusion; and provided the opportunity for Admiral Albadawi to launch his
master plan. He gambled on the Vilani being unable to react to the change in
Terran focus quickly and moved to seize and fortify Enulsur (now Oudh). Taking
possibly the biggest gamble of the wars, he took the bulk of the Terran fleet
and in 2268AD he reduced Gaea, Tonopah and Duriim. This maneuver totally
outflanked the Vilani and left their entire fleet cut off and stranded at
Gashidda. The Vilani tried franticlly to break out of this pocket, but the
Terran line held and in 2269 the virtually the entire Vilani provincial fleet
surrendered. In the subsequent Treaty of Enulsur, the Vilani surrendered all
territory rimward of Vega to the Terrans.

Ninth Interstellar War (2274AD to 2280AD)
With the crushing defeat in the 8th War, the Vilani central government finally
took notice. Substainial forces were dispatched to the Rim and preperations
were made to put an end to the Terran menace once and for all. However the
Terrans struck first. Utilising their newly developed jump 3 drives (deployed
experimentally in limited numbers at the end of the 8th War), the Terrans
totally outflanked the Vilani forward positions and destroyed the Vilani fleet
in detail. The Vilani were thrown into a panic; the provincial forces, already
demoralised after the 8th War disintergrated and collapsed, whilst the newly
arrived central forces were totally at a loss to cope with the deep penetration
and raiding tactics of the Terrans. By 2278AD the Vilani were in full retreat.
The newly developed Terran meson guns further added to the Vilani collapse and
the retreat turned into a rout. By 2279AD the Terrans had driven the Vilani
from the Sector. However the Terran Confederation government was by now
concerned at the rate of advance, with the forwards elements of their forces
being virtually out of control. In 2280AD the Confederation government called
a halt to the offensive and announced they were ready to bring an end to
hostilities. The Vilani were by now desperate and gladly accepted the
opportunity for a respite and in 2280AD ceded the entire Sector to the Terrans.

Nth Interstellar Wars (2283AD to 2299AD)
The Confederation's fears about maintaining control of it's forces proved to
be well founded. In 2283AD a minor incident on the frontier sparked the
beginning of the Nth Wars. Intially the Confederation only intended to use the
opportunity to seize a few strategic border worlds to secure the frontier.
However the time delay between the front and central command prevented the
government from ever gaining control of the fleet. As the Vilani collapsed in
front of the advancing Terrans, local commanders were constantly presented
with opportunities too good to ignore. Many historians have commented on the
fact that it took the Terrans 16 years to finally defeat the Vilani was more
due to the fact that the Terrans could not keep up with the rout more than
any resistance from the Vilani. The entire period of the Nth Wars is
confusing; to all intents and purposes the Ziru Sirka had ceased to exist by
around 2287AD. The bulk of the Nth War were fought by local Vilani commanders
and worlds with little or no reference or support from their higher government.
On the Terran side the continually lengthening lines of communications
prevented the Confederation from exercising effective control of their forces.
The setting of the end of the Nth Wars is a purely arbitary date based on the
surrender of the Ishimkarun at Vland on 14th September 2299AD. In fact the
fighting continued for at least four years after this date as some Vilani
continued fighting either from a sense of honor, denying the inevitable, or
simply because they did not know the Wars were over. However by 2303AD the
Wars were over and the Terran Confederation was left in control of the Vilani
Empire.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1663
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1664



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: Polyhedra
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: Grav-focussed lasers
Re: Western Australia going it alone...
Re: Canada etc
Milieu -2500
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: Polyhedra
re: qsds sensors (getting a bit lengthy)
alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Chocolate on the mind.....
Cities in Flight Replies
oops - QSDS new sensors, revised.
Definitive Sensor Rules errata: converting LIDARs
RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll
More Code Duello
Re: Mileu:E21 or Mileu:-2508
Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:38:41 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

>Of course, but you'd add up theenergy per unit time emitted and use
>the power table in the rules to get the sig.  I never suggested that
>you'd add up the log sigs, just that you'd add up the photons.  In
>the case of hull radiators for something like a Scout ship (~150MW)
>with a 2g drive (~100MW) we have something much different than 10+1.

Ok max(log10(150),log10(100)) = max(2,2) = 2
Or log10(150+100) = 2
More or less the same (given another logscale things would be different)

>For play sake, it makes sense to assume the largest is the one used,
>however, I agree with you there.  Otherwise you'd have to keep track
>of way too much.  Actually allowing HEPlaR sigs (in their log form)
>to add makes sense too, since we know HEPlaR is really a fusion
>rocket, and should be 100 times brighter :-)
>
>-Merrick

I use the following for calculating thruster sigs:
Chemical: Tons of thrust x 10 = Equivalent MW
Fission: Tons of thrust x 100 = Equivalent MW
Fusion: Tons of thrust x 1000 = Equivalent MW

In the above logscales this is the same as
+1 for chemical, +2 for fission and +3 for fusion/Heplar


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:39:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

> From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> Subject: The Interstellar Wars
> 
> The talk of M:E21 has prompted me to think about the Interstellar Wars
> (actually this has been in the back of my mind for a while). I gone
> through my Traveller library to find what I know about the Interstellar
> Wars with the aim of producing a hypothetical Interstellar War sourcebook.
> So far this is what I've found:
> 
<snip>
> 
> Okay, its 1am here now. I'll finish the 6th through 9th Wars tommorrow.
> 

Hey! Very cool! I shall have to go home and get out my maps of the Solomani
Rim to see how this looks on paper...

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:51:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

>What makes you think, that we have a true understanding of what they are
>now?
>We only really know how they act in certain circumstances.
>
>Eric Freitas

Define true understanding (no mystic crap please).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:48:40 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

Merrick Said;
>Actually, we can assume that the exhaust is radiating the 100MW it
>uses, and the hull radiators are taking up the 50MW slack, so we'd
>just look up the sig for 150MW.  The problem is that the exhaust is
>harder to hide than energy lost with the radiators---add to this the
>fact that the HEPlaR contains more than the 50MW a g it was given by
>the PP, and I'd say it would be at least fair to add them together
>and check vs. 250MW.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but would the mdrive actually radiate it's full
output?  Seems to me that some large prtion of the energy output from the
power plant to the mdrive goes into propelling the vessel.  It's only the
"leaking" energy that has to be radiated, right?  Not that it takes much
energy to radiate like a lightbulb in a dark room, but It seems like you're
throwing around 100% of the PP or mdrive output.

Correct me, I know I'm probably wrong/came in too late.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:50:07 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Grav-focussed lasers

>I know this is a rather, um, syncretist idea (read: utter heresy
>which will have the RCCC after me) but actually I'd rather like
>lasers to have much shorter ranges... then we could go back to
>having small ship-to-ship missiles, and fusion guns, and... y'know,
>old stuff like that.
>
>The major advantage of grav focussing IMO is that it would allow much
>higher energy densities than conventional lenses, which absorb energy
>from the laser pulse, and also the focussing of inconvenient
>frequencies like X-rays.  Thus, the grav-focussed laser is noticeably
>better than the non-focussed but not a whole new technology.
>
>Corrections to the above paragraph will be, well, not exactly welcomed,
>but listened to attentively.
>
>Nick

I've been playing with short range lasers (about 10 000 km combat ranges)
with good effects. You could really build 50 kg missiles that work on those
ranges, even chemical (remember that CT canon has missiles massing 50 kg).
No need for gravfocussing either and space battles where dodging behind
planets, slingshotting with gravity, aerobraking etc really worked. The
problem was that Bruce calculated realistic detection ranges for sensors
and shot this scenario to hell (at least if you want sensor ranges on par
with shooting ranges).
Now I'm working on a rewrite of my spacecombat system with longer ranges
(100 000 km typical shooting ranges) and using much shorter wavelength
light (x-ray etc) to still avoid those pesky gravfocussing abominations.
OK, you'll need one set of lasers for atmospheric work as the air absorbs
the x-rays too much but that I consider good as well (no PCs will a
civilian merchant terrorizing some government with their good-of-thunder
lasers in atmosphere).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:01:45 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Western Australia going it alone...

Michael T. Bailey wrote:

[snip]
>
>All this talk 'bout the Quebec/Canada/US debate brings to mind the idiots
>here who still believe us Western Australians, a state with less than two
>million people with a land area almost half of the continental US, can go
>it alone.  Admittedly, Australia is run by morons, crooks and self-serving
>cowards (both parties)...but then again, who isn't?
>
>Now, my idea was much better...if it all worked out you'd be now talking to
>the Minister for Nachos, People's Republic of Fremantle....(muhahaha)...


	The fact that Western Australia voted 75% to separate in a
referendum on the subject held back in the 1930's occasionally gets
mentioned up here.  Of course, the constitutional situation was and is
quite different, but it's an interesting little precedent.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:33:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Canada etc

> From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
> Subject: Canada vs USA (its all America to me...)
> 
> Hi there
> 
> Please, could we just lose the Canadian/USA
> governmental/social/economic system comparison or whatever it is?  I
> don't know if most of the posts had anything to say relevant to Trav,
> because I gave up reading them.  This is th stuff of private email, or
> perhaps there is a Rant on About America Mailing List somewhere?  This
> isn't intended as a flame, just a request.

I think someone already mentioned, but, I'll mention again: and a polite
request it is. 

However, the chances of getting a Canadian to stop talking about the
Quebec situation are about as high as convincing a bunch of Orangemen
to give up their parades. It is some sort of bizzare, masochistic
failing that's inside all of us.

Anyways, it is perhaps more interesting to look at Quebec and contemplate
why it is part of Canada in the first place. Quebec has (and I'm sure
I'll be corrected if I'm wrong):

 - it's own set of laws, using a civil code instead of a common law code
    like the rest of Canada has
 - it's own set of immigration laws
 - it's own parliment, which passes laws independently of the federal
    government
 - it's own retirement fund/pension plan, which the separatist gv'mt
    uses to play games with the Canadian dollar (well, only once)
 - it's own set of culture laws, even more strict, and bizzare than
    Canada's national culture laws
 - it's own (inept) para-military force, which I don't think other
    provinces have
 - even worse drivers than Toronto and bizzare no-right-turn-on-red-light
    rules

and other things that I'm not aware of probably.

At any rate, the only things that Quebec shares with the rest of Canada
are the dollar, the Canadian passport and a general dislike of weak
American beer. By all rights, it should be a different country already.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:43:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Milieu -2500

   Hi.

> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:40:07 -0700
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)

>   The UN must have been pretty weak until the Wars. So power in
> the classic Realist sense lies with the Great Powers. Unless
> there's been a tremendous upheaval of one sort or another then
> both Japan and the U.S. are going to qualify. Europe will if united,
> and possibly China if it's somehow continued to advance under
> it's burdens. Who else would qualify as Great Powers in 2050
> rather than regional powers (seriously, Nigeria may end up as
> the strongman of sub-Saharan Africa, but the U.S. would still
> tell them where to stick it when it mattered to them).

   Hmmm.  Japan may wind up being less of a power when the other Asian
   Tigers begin competing with it --- unless it re-establishes its
   empire.  I'd put my long-term money on resource-rich Indonesia and
   Malaysia, and possibly China as you point out.  When Russia stops
   falling apart I suspect it will really take off;  Siberia may be THE
   wild frontier and land of oportunity for the 21st century.  Barring
   WWIII Europe will certainly be a world power (when has it not been in
   the last two millenia?) either as a polity or as amalgam of
   independent states.  If India ever modernizes its infrastructure (it
   may be able to if it has a whole century) it may just become the most
   powerful country in the world.  Brazil is getting stronger every day; 
   in a century it may be the dominant power of the western hemisphere.
   And don't forget `Arabia', if it ever unites. (Hey, it happened
   before and with little warning!)  The US will probably still be a
   force to be reckoned with unless it falls apart (which could happen
   very quickly --- compare the rhetoric of the southern state
   governments when they seceeded with the rhetoric they used a mere ten
   years earlier when many were swearing to `perpetually vernerate the
   sanctity of the Union').

   But of course, the possibility of political instability makes all
   these predictions mere guesses.  A lot can happen in a century.
   Heck, a lot can happen in a decade!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:57:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars
> 
> This is a very nice beginning synopsis. I'm looking forward to the rest.
> 
> Meanwhile, the intent of Nth Interstellar War was to convey that toward the
> end of the period, some groups of worlds were at peace while others continued
> to fight. The Ziru Sirka (or is it Sirkaa?) talked out of several sides of
> its collective mouth, and kept fighting etc.The traditional numbering system
> for wars was used (1-8) or so until it fell apart.
> 
> I have been talking with Loren Wiseman about he and I doing the E21 milieu,
> and it would be a natural for us to do the Interstellar Wars after that. I
> believe that a Milieu should be used to reflect on a specific type of play
> and emphasize that. E21 would emphasize the Soalr System and the Grand Story
> of first contacts with the Vilani. The Interstellar Wars would benefit from
> emphasizing space battles and ship design.

Darn! All this time, I've been seething with ideas for an Interstellar
Wars/Rule of Man type Milieu supplement and now the cat is out of the bag...
oh well. Here's some of the ideas that had been dancing around in my head:

 - profile the Vilani and some major worlds in the area, to give the 
   players some idea of what purely Vilani run worlds are like
 - lots of info on the Vegans, who with the advent of Interstellar Wars,
   shrug off their Vilani overlords and become a major force in the
   area and a signifigant Terran ally.
 - a description of how Terra has changed in the last hundred years,
   going from being the rulers of the universe to being just another
   human race - this revelation alone will change Terran society 
   immensely
 - a description of the Terran Navy - during the period of the Interstellar
   Wars, there would be very little "civilian" space traffic, as least 
   from Terra. Chances are that all Terran jump-capable ships are
   Naval vessels and that civilians have to charter space on them for
   cargo, passage, etc. (Makes a good plot hook for getting civilians
   into those tight spots they have no place being...)
 - a description of some of the new Terran colonies - no doubt some of the
   larger ones are going to try to push away from the distant
   Terran rule...

I also envisioned a sample campaign setting, a large Vilani highport
on a conquered world (this is more towards the end of the Nth Interstellar
War, on the cusp of the declaration of the Rule of Man by Estigarribia)
to which the Pc's are assigned as high-level commanding officers, in
spite of the fact that they're all, oh, you know, about 25 and fresh
out of the Naval Academy... of course, this has lots of options for
all types of characters. (It's kind of Deep-Space-9-ish, but only in
the sense that the campaign would take palce primarily on the station,
as opposed to on a ship travelling between systems, like most Traveller
campaigns seem to).

Anyways, if you're interested Marc, I'd love to help out or contribute in
some way to the project. And never fear - if you don't need or want
help, I'm too busy to bother to sue you. ;)

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:18:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Eric Freitas wrote:

> ----------
> > From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
> > To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> > I am trying to figure out a way to use this bit of trivia in my Traveller
> > game (a bit easier for me since I don't run a "canon" universe). Would it
> be
> > possible to build a reasonable technological society without a real
> > understanding of atoms, electrons or molecules...?
> 
> 
> What makes you think, that we have a true understanding of what they are
> now?
> We only really know how they act in certain circumstances.

Go read a book, called (I believe) Quantum Electrodynamics, by Richard
Feynmann. It is a series of lectures, allegedly aimed toward the lay
public (ghod how we have fallen) written in the late 50', early 60's,
which explains chemistry from quantum mechanincs, and it matches
perfectly. A number of people have gotten Nobel Prizes for their work in
determining exactly how chemistry works. 

Chemistry, we understand perfectly well, _if we have knowledge of the
exact conditions pertaining_, and we're gainng on knowing what happens
when we don't know them all the time.

I couldn't do it now, but once upon a time I could tell you precisely and
mathematically what happens when you mix oxygen, hydrogen and a spark.

(Quick...how do you say BOOM in Calculus ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:13:19 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: re: qsds sensors (getting a bit lengthy)

>Peter H. Brenton writes
>>Is there some form of backwards compatibility here?
>
>The compatibility is limited, unfortunately; in particular the new
>sensors tend to occupy a lot more volume than old ones. (The other
>numbers are all within the same order of magnitude, at least - my
>medium mil is three times as much power, 5 times the cost but half the
>area of T4. Maybe I could tweak things to match T4 numbers a little
>better (figure out what I can fit into the same area as the QSDS ones...)
>(Is "Advanced Military a SSDS sensor? I don't own "Starships" so I
>tried to match QSDS more.)

Should be "Military".  I'm using Andrew Akins SSDS template, so it should
be standard.

Here's his table entry (mass omitted for comparison sake);

TL    Vol	Area Power  Price	Crew(mx)	Crew(el)
	Rating	       MinLength
10  143.8	 554  413.9  248.91	  0.41	   11	A10 P4 J10          0

One thing to mention, I think Andrew has lumped the communications package
into this as well.

Let me find one close to the new table you provided;

I'd prefer Mil Picket (good descriptive names btw);
TL   Vol	 Area   Power  Price	  Crew(mx)		Rating
10   629     96     111.2  1605      3       A11.5, P14FS, P13.5T, L14.5,
JA12, JP13.5

Ok, this will save on power and area (area doesn't matter to me on this
design one bit),  dropping 300MW of power will save space and crew to some
extent.  The price though is 6.4 times the price I had.  This is quite
significant.  I'm not sure, but I think crew requirement has increased as
well, and that implies a lot of extra space needed for their needs,
probably more thanthe savings in PP volume.

Lets try Medium Mil - oops, cant use it due to the 1000 ton min hull! (my
submission is 700 tons)

Ok, SmallMil still has active jammers, lets try that;

TL   Vol	 Area   Power  Price	  Crew(mx)		Rating
10   71.5   26.5    7.0      135     2.0                A11.5, P13.5,
L14.5, JA11, JP0

No passive jammers?  seems a bit silly to have active jamming but not passive.

Anyway, this component much smaller than the "standard" SSDS one I picked,
uses 1/60th the power, and costs half as much. I feel like I've got the
wrong sensor here; is it as capable?  the A, P, and L ratings are
comparable, but what about the J rating?  No passive jammers, but otherwise
similar.  Are the values actually comparable though?

In fact, the main difference between the small mil and the mil picket seems
to be that the mil picket has to deploy a folding array to do passive scans
and the small mil doesn't.  for that and the passive jammer the mil picket
pays over 100MW in power, over 500m^3 in space (35 tons!!!) and almost 1500
Mcr in price!  Oh, and they get half a factor additional passive scan (but
only with the folded array open) and a full factor better active jammer (is
this really a significant impact?).

What am I missing?

by the way, I do not mean, in any of this, to demean or be critical of all
the work that has gone into this.  I am sure I am missing something and I'm
just running through my logic to make it possible to poke holes in it.  I
appreciate the feedback loop.

(also BTW I won't be back 'til Monday to respond to any messages).

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:24:48 +0200
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

	Some days ago i read a letter asking for some info about an entity that
sounded like an alien, from the movie "ALIEN".	I have a magazine in my
posession that is dealing with this particular creature in traveller. If
anyone want me to drop the info on this, then let me know. They even have
traveller figures on the creatures itself. The bad news is: it's in swedish
so i have to translate the stuff and it may take a while.

More news on the cad object work of mine..

I read the essay on bridge design contributed by:
	Darkstar
	M. Bailey
	D. Berry
	P. Brenton
	H. Hale
	L. Howie
	Wildstar
By some and written by J. Golden.(What happened to your excellent webpage?)

Am doing a database of objects to drop onto my homepage. It contains Doors
and hatches, screens, consoles, machinery, engines, furnitures, standard
rooms and facilities, weapons and even tools that may be lying around in a
ship plan. I'll have a .dxf & .dwg standard in 2D. What's your thoughts on
this?

Goran S

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 04:52:05 -0700
From: "Makens, Brian" <bjm@dsc.com>
Subject: Chocolate on the mind.....

While eating a chocolate ice cream cone at the local Frosty's, my mind
began wandering onto things traveller...

1. I have read that Vet's don't recommend feeding chocolate to dogs, because
    it as a strong narcotic effect on canine brains(similar to cocaine 
on human brains)

    This got me wondering, if Vargr have the same sensitivity to chocolate
     as their distant biological cousins,  does this mean that chocolate is
     a dangerous narcotic menace on Vargr worlds?  Visions of Heroic(or Corrupt)
     Chocolate Interdiction Task Force agents battling  the nefarious chocolate
     smugglers from the infamous Mother See's and Hershey's chocolate cartels                 abound. Every ship from human space is a 
potential menace in the struggle to keep Vargr worlds safe from the scourge of  chocolate addiction.

2. 	That also ead to the interesting idea, that there is a significant 
part of the solomani
      population that would never VOLUNTARILY  leave earth to colonize 
new worlds light years away, unless it was proved to their 
satisfaction, that either a frequent supply ship is going to be 
bringing the chocolate around, or they were shown the carefully
packed cocoa bean plants in the hold, along with the other terrestrial 
crops being
shipped.

Then it hit me, that there would also be those who would demand to see the coffee
bean plants, and those who would want to check out the brewing/distilling equipment
in the hold before they would ever agree to go find their berth for 
take off.

So the question is folks,  what vital cargoes are going to be needed to be shipped
before billions of solomani voluntarily leave Terra, for "uncivilized" places like
sylea, alderbaran, home, dingir and other places...

Brian Makens
(Sure, I will emigrate  to Dingir! I just need to  travel in the liner(first class please) and
you can ship all the stuff I'll need in a  cargo ship dedicated just for me and you can
unlock  the chains and handcuffs on me right after lift off!!!).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:28:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Cities in Flight Replies

Thanks to all of you who responded to my question! I'll be adding it to my
reading list. 

I have to signoff this list and the TNE-RCES list as well for a couple of
weeks. I hope to be able to return soon to lurk some more. =)

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:21:21 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: oops - QSDS new sensors, revised.

Embarrassingly, I forgot that QSDS does volume in dTons - my post gave 
volume in m3. Here's the correct chart with volume in dTons - now it 
doesn't look *quite* as different from the existing ones.

TL10 sensors:
Type       Power   Cost  Area   Vol   Hull  Rating                      Crew
Basic        0.4    2.8   0.6   0.2     0   A11 P12.5 L0 JA0 JP0        1.0
Improved     0.8   14.1   2.8   0.6     1   A11 P13 L14 JA0 JP0         1.5
Small Mil    7.0  135.0  26.5   5.1    40   A11.5 P13.5 L14.5 JA11 JP0  2.0
Medium Mil 156.5 1856.6 321.3  68.2  1000   A12 P14 P13.5S L15 L15 JA12 JP0
                                                                crew=3
Science      5.2 1225.0  25.0  30.3     0   A11.5 P14Fsc L0. JA0. JP0.  1.0
Mil Picket 111.2 1605.0  96.0  44.9    40  A11.5 P14FS P13.5T L14.5 JA12 JP13.5
                                                                crew=3
Lurker       1.3  181.3  36.3   5.4    40   A10 P13.5 P13.5S L14.5 JA0 JP0
								crew=1.5
SearchLight 53.2  275.8  55.2     1   A12 P13 L15 JA0 JP0         1.5

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:27:04 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Definitive Sensor Rules errata: converting LIDARs

Please use this improved conversion table for mapping FFS LADARs to 
FFS2/DSR LIDARs:

FFS range	Sensitivity
1		13.5
2		14.0
4		14.5
6		15.0
8		15.5		

(the results are pretty close - though they differ somewhat because my TL
breakpoints are different than FFS, so you can buy a 15.0 LIDAR at TL10 - 
but that's a small difference.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 18:00:23 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: RE: T4 Hydrographic Roll

> According to CT Book 3 that I have, on page 7 it is 2D-7+atmosphere
In my copy (UK printing) p7 is about Law Level.


> and on page 12 it is 2D-7+size.
I agree with this (as does the written description on p4).

Both p8 and p12 show DM -4 for ATM 0, 1 or A+



Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 09:34:20 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: More Code Duello

> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
 
> > Later, a political opponent attacked him on the steps of the capitol
 
> Jackson was in his 80s, at the time, IIRC, and it was an assassin: the guy
> walked up, whipped out a pistol and it misfired (percussion cap went off, but
> the powder wasn't ignited). Jackson wacks the guy with his cane, and the
> assassin whips out a second pistol, which _also_ misfires, and Jackson has to
> be restrained from killing the poor schmuck. 

Sounds like the poor schmuck had it coming -- and assassins know that
their job carries a certain risk.  
 
> Loren Wiseman
>      GDW Emeritus/Great Old One

Now that's scary ... maybe Doug Berry has been right all these years. 
(Run Twilight Zone theme music.)

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 09:42:02 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21 or Mileu:-2508

> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:05:01 -0400
> From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
> Subject: Re: Mileu:E21 or Mileu:-2508
 
> I take this to mean that each nation had, at least, law enforcement
> agencies involved in it's own extra terrestrial colonies. These served
> as the core for military expansion following First Contact. These
> national space agencies are organizations that would provide Characters
> a means into space, and serve as adventure bases (as stated in previous
> post, claim jumpers, criminal flight from Earth to Luna, Mars, Search
> and Rescue operations, etc.)
> 
> On an another note, I like the idea of this as a source book/expanson
> set to the T4 rules.
> 

This would be an excellent Milieu, and I second the motion for a source
book.  However, I think that the Canadian Civil War (known to
francophones as La Guerre entre Quebec et Canada) has to be included. 
Maybe the colony Nouveau Quebec is in danger of falling to the Vilani
and France and les Puissances Anglophones (USA, Britain, Australia) have
to cooperate to save it from alien invasion -- until they can get back
to their own warfare.  Or maybe the real danger is that Nouveau Quebec
wants to secede from the Terran Empire (er, confederation, sorry) and is
willing to take Vilani help to do it.  Hmm -- lots of possibilities
here.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:01:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size

> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
> 
>   What folks are overlooking in the debate about size is that the Classic
> 400T SDB is not TL10 - can't remember off hand, but I seem to recall that
> it was at least TL12, if not more.  I know that does not sound like much,
> but the gravitic focus laser jump at TL11 means that TL10 SDBs either
> carry big bay weapons or missiles - no laser turrets.  The Classic SDB
> carries two missile bays and two triple laser turrets - under current
> Traveller ship design rules you really can't duplicate a ship like that at
> TL10.
> 
>   Based on my fiddles several months ago with low tech SDBs, designed as
> opponents for the Merc and Patrol Cruiser THUDDDs, TL10 SDBs should be
> larger, esp. if they are going to use anything but missiles.  TL10 sensors
> are expensive, and it only makes sense to wrap those sensors with more
> armor and firepower, at least in my opinion.  YMMV, of course.

Thanks, Mark -- that was exactly my thinking in going to the 500-1000 dt
range for this THUDDD, but I hadn't gotten the chance to lay out my case.
I'm actually pretty sure that the 'optimum' displacement without price
constraints for a TL-10 SDB is more in the 2-3000 dt range, but as this
THUDDD is aimed at an impoverished PE, I moved the range down accordingly.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1664
***********************************
Traveller-digest       Friday, August 8 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1665



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Laser Grav Pulse???
Lector wanted
Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
this sucks up !
Re: M: -25 C
Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Re: Chocolate on the mind.....
Looking for Gvurrdon Sector Info
Re: Damn Yankees!
re: qsds sensors (getting a bit lengthy)
Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Re: Polyhedra
Stop the bloody phone calls!
[T97#1664] Chocolate on the Mind...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:19:13 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Laser Grav Pulse???

At 06:24 PM 8/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> beam performance with this approach the beam as it leaves the gravity field
>> has to be tens of meters across, which means the gravity field has to be
>> tens of meters across and millions of G's...Which is hard to do. The
>> travelling pulse is somewhat more plausible.
>
>How much grav does it take to collapse matter to superdense?  Almost
>white dwarf or evenneutron star level gravs.  This technology exists in
>Traveller, at least for contained sourses of unimaginably high g,
>according to the existence of these materials.

Actually, I suspect it would take a lot less, given that degenerate matter
and neutronium are both far, far more dense that superdense.  Superdense is
only a factor of 2-3 denser than plain steel, right?

Note - center of the earth pressures are sufficient to compress matter to
more than double its normal density, I heard once, but I have no references
for that.  References appreciated, or counter examples.

>Anyone care to take a wag a the g level needed to collapse matter to
>this state?

Would a short 100G pulse do it?  IIRC, the pressure at the earth's core is
in the tons/in^2, which seems in line with thousands of gees. 

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:21:30 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Lector wanted

Hy folks,

	I think I need a lector for the next THUDDD. As you
	know I'm a german guy and my grammar/spelling/style,
	is probately not the best. I had preposted it on Aug3,
	if you like it contact me privately to obtain an
	actual version.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:50:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

here is a little speech i would like to share with the list.  i would like
you all to try and decide who gave the speech.  just to make sure you know
who the speech maker is i will repost the speech with the name of the
speaker.....

"This year will go down in history.  For the first time in, a civilised
nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more
efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"


okay folks who said it....

Richard

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 11:29:46 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> 
> Am doing a database of objects to drop onto my homepage. It contains Doors
> and hatches, screens, consoles, machinery, engines, furnitures, standard
> rooms and facilities, weapons and even tools that may be lying around in a
> ship plan. I'll have a .dxf & .dwg standard in 2D. What's your thoughts on
> this?
> 

Please continue this work. I'll scoop up the stuff as soon as it's done!

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 97 14:27:00 EDT
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@ansyspo.ansys.com>
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians

Hi All,

I found that COMPUSA was closing out versions of Marathon 2 for Windows95 
for $9.95 about 2 months ago. It pays to look in the bargin bin.

Bye,

Glenn Myers ( one of the lurker Glenns)
 ----------
From: owner-traveller
To: traveller
Subject: Re: AI Ships and Darrians
Date: Thursday, August 07, 1997 8:43PM

In-Reply-To: <33E8F687.3B7D@sk.sympatico.ca>

Glenn,

> > > OBTrav: check out the Marathon games if you haven't already.
> > > There's lots there for a Trav game...
> >
> > Mac only, isn't it?
>
> Nope. Marathon 2 is out for Win95, too.

Ah. I shall investigate. I've nearly finished Duke Nukem 3D, so I'll
need something else to waste my time on soon...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 13:34:06 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> 
<snip ALIEN ;) >
> More news on the cad object work of mine..
> 
> I read the essay on bridge design contributed by:
>         Darkstar
>         M. Bailey
>         D. Berry
>         P. Brenton
>         H. Hale
>         L. Howie
>         Wildstar
> By some and written by J. Golden.(What happened to your excellent webpage?)

Where can I get a copy of this?

> 
> Am doing a database of objects to drop onto my homepage. It contains Doors
> and hatches, screens, consoles, machinery, engines, furnitures, standard
> rooms and facilities, weapons and even tools that may be lying around in a
> ship plan. I'll have a .dxf & .dwg standard in 2D. What's your thoughts on
> this?

Excellent!  Sounds time consuming though...  I've not been able to put
that much detail in.  If you need a web page to make them available on,
let me know.

> 
> Goran S

Matt McL

- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 13:45:46 -0500
From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:
> 
> here is a little speech i would like to share with the list.  i would like
> you all to try and decide who gave the speech.  just to make sure you know
> who the speech maker is i will repost the speech with the name of the
> speaker.....
> 
> "This year will go down in history.  For the first time in, a civilised
> nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more
> efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
> 
> okay folks who said it....
> 
> Richard

Well, this is cheating because I saw it on a .sig on this list (or
gdw-beta), but IIRC, his initials were A.H.  His second prediction was
certainly correct, and it looks like the third one may also be. :-(  The
first prediction could, I suppose, be taken as a POV issue.

	Matt McL


- -- 
>-----------------------------------------------------<
Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>-----------------------------------------------------<

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:16:56 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: The Interstellar Wars

One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and copies
it from the Vilani. This makes for lots of fun things - aircraft and helicopters
rather than grav vehicles, large spacecraft are incapable of landing on planets
and you need to use shuttles, ground-to-orbit is very expensive, etc.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:12:29 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

>Maybe I'm just being naive, but would the mdrive actually radiate it's full
>output?  Seems to me that some large prtion of the energy output from the
>power plant to the mdrive goes into propelling the vessel.  It's only the
>"leaking" energy that has to be radiated, right?  Not that it takes much
>energy to radiate like a lightbulb in a dark room, but It seems like you're
>throwing around 100% of the PP or mdrive output.

If you do the numbers, a huge amount of waste heat shows up in chemical
or fusion rocket exhausts compared to the kinetic energy that goes into
the spacecraft - and (paradoxically) the waste heat to kinetic energy
in spacecraft gets much higher as the exhaust velocity inreases (which
corresponds to decreasing Traveller fuel consumption values.)

Basically, if you have a spacecraft of mass M and rocket exhaust (in a unit
time) of mass m, with velocities V and v respectively, starting from rest,   
the changes in momentum have to balance

                MV=mv

This means that if M>>m (an efficient rocket), V<<v. Since the kinetic energy
of the two components is 1/2MV^2 and 1/2mv^2, the kinetic energy of the 
exhaust is much higher than that of the spacecraft.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:08:31 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: this sucks up !

Moin Steven Hudson,

> >joining the U.S.  The new "rump" country of Canada is now virtually
> >landlocked and on the verge of losing its national identity.
>                        ^^^^^     ^^^^^

	please f*ck up and create a yanks agains canuck mailing
	list elsewhere. reading those wast, cost time and money
	(as i have to pay my phonebill)


By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:13:50 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: M: -25 C

Moin Steven Hudson,

> Who else would qualify as Great Powers in 2050
> rather than regional powers (seriously, Nigeria may end up as
> the strongman of sub-Saharan Africa, but the U.S. would still
> tell them where to stick it when it mattered to them).

	nations will fail, the real powers in the 21 century
	will be the mulinational cons.

	e.g. compare the Bill Gates, or even Guiseppe Benidetto
	to lets say France or Germany, they have probately more
	power. Compare some Cons with Canada or an US-State
	it will be similar.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:52:01 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

Moin Goran Sjoberg,

> Am doing a database of objects to drop onto my homepage. It contains Doors
> and hatches, screens, consoles, machinery, engines, furnitures, standard
> rooms and facilities, weapons and even tools that may be lying around in a
> ship plan. I'll have a .dxf & .dwg standard in 2D. What's your thoughts on
> this?

	sounds interesting, i sould look around for a dxf<->xfig
	converter, dxf was an easy format xfig is plain text, so
	it should even be posible to write per hand.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:59:14 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Chocolate on the mind.....

Moin Makens, Brian,

> 2. 	That also ead to the interesting idea, that there is a significant 
> part of the solomani
>       population that would never VOLUNTARILY  leave earth to colonize 
> new worlds light years away, unless it was proved to their 
> satisfaction, that either a frequent supply ship is going to be 
> bringing the chocolate around, or they were shown the carefully
> packed cocoa bean plants in the hold, along with the other terrestrial 
> crops being
> shipped.

	never mind, desert storm showed that US was able to produce
	a new chocolate for troupers. It dosnt change taste in the
	heat. BTW it was not based on milk, but on aminmal waste
	(blood, brain, boones, etc).

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:59:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Looking for Gvurrdon Sector Info

I'm looking for Gvurrdon Sector info.  My players don't know it yet, 
but they are about to go trans-Imperial.

Does anybody know of a Gvurrdon map produced by DGP in a mag or other 
product?

I prefer an official sector (one that has appeared in a GDW or DGP 
supplement or mag) as opposed to a player generated one, but I will 
take either.

Since DGP did such a fine job of listing every star system accurately 
on their large maps (the one in the DGP ref screen;  the one in V&V), 
the best of all worlds would be to find a Gvurrdon map and sector 
data that corresponds to the star locations shown on page 48 of DGP's 
excellent Vilani & Vargr.

So, can anybody help me out?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 97 15:06:18 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Damn Yankees!

On 08/07/97 at 09:28 PM,  Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> said:

>Crackers - Deep South, ex-Confederacy

Cracker comes from "Sand Cracker" and refered to poor dirt farmers that
attempted to scratch out a living by "cracking the sandy soil" down in the
hollers between the hills and throughout the pine barrens.  

>Rednecks - Plains States and Southwest (may include Texas, which is
>separated from  the Crackers by Hillbillies and Cajuns, although Texans
>are virtually their own category)

Redneck came from the sunburned color of their necks. These were the poor
working class that worked outside all day. It is applied throughout the
southern part of the US from the Atlantic down to the Gulf and across to
the lower classes of California.  Today it refers, primarily, to bigots,
the overtly violent and the slovenly poor. The stereotypical redneck is any
big, dumb Hollywood heavy with a southern accent.

>Hillbillies - From the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri to the Appalachians

Also to the Smoky Mountain areas of Alabama, Tennesee, Georgia and North
Carolina. Hillbillie refered to males originally, as in "billy goat", but
very few references were made to Hillbelles and it became generic for both
sexes.  The stereotypical hillbilly family really *is* the "Beverly
Hillbillies."  The stereotypical hillbilly that made good is Dolly Parton.
The stereotypical hillbilly villains can be found in "Deliverance."
 
>Cajuns - (Descendant's of French Canadians I think) A world unto
>themselves

Correct, the displaced Arcadians. Read all about them in Longfellow's poem,
"Evangiline."  Cajuns were settled in southern and central Lousisana, and
that's where you'll find most of them today.  Their music, speech and
culture is still similar in many ways with rural Quebec.  A representive of
cajuns is Justine Wilson (he's only an honorary cajun, though ;-). 

In case you don't realise it, all these terms are generally considered
insults (except Cajun, of course).  Mountain folk wouldn't refer to
themselves as hillbillies, nor would poor whites call themselves crackers.
As for rednecks..well, if you *are* one then you're too stupid (or drunk)
to care what anybody calls you, and if you aren't "them's fighting words."
;->


Eris,
    my ancestors were crackers and had red necks, but weren't rednecks. -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:41:06 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: qsds sensors (getting a bit lengthy)

Peter Brenton writes

>[various questions boiling down to comparing the sizes of old and new
>sensors]

>What am I missing?
There are a bunch of complications - some unfortunate, some unavoidable.

The first thing to remember (when comparing one of my sensor sets to another)
is that because of the log scale a difference of 0.5 in sensitivity is a 
factor of 3 in range - so the mil picket has three times the effective range
of the small mil, due to its huge folding array. Unfortuntately, fundemental
physics means that to see 3 times further away you need a sensor ten times
bigger in area...Most of the rest of the difference is the power for the active
jammer (which maybe I should have made smaller) and the passive jammer (which
is a real power hog.)

The second thing is that the sensors then span a huge range in size; my main
goal was to have sensors that went from missile-sized to just-barely-fits-on-
the Tigress. Combined with the coarse range scale Marc chose for T4.1, and
the need to not have the tables get to big, this results in big jumps from
one sensor to the next.

The third thing is that the conversions to FFS are hard to make perfect. 
I pegged them by making looking at the sensor sizes in FFS and figuring out
what that amount of surface area buys you in my sensor system. Since the
volume per surface area, mass per surface area, cost per SA, and power per
SA are all different in FFS, it was somewhat hard to match things perfectly.

I matched things at TL12. Unfortunately, in FFS, sensors get a lot 
smaller with tech level - more smaller than I could mentally justify,
for reasons too detailed to go into now (the readers digest version is that
even TL-8 sensors are already close to 
perfect, so I couldn't see how much better they could get.) That means that
at TLs below 12 FFS sensors tend to be bigger than mine for a given 
performance and above they tend to be smaller.  

The range scalings in FFS1 are really, really weird - I couldn't for the
understand what determines how sensor size increases with range - which 
complicates things also; a PEMS 5 and PEMS 6 in FFS get the same rating on
my scale even though the latter is 5 times large in area. 

So that's the story...conversions to old sensors are weird mostly because of the
TL effect and slightly because of the different mass/cost/price/surface/power
ratios. Some of this could have been improved with more (any) playtesting,
but FFS2 got little playetesting. The conversions will never be perfect
plug-ins. On the other hand, the new sensors are 100% guaranteed internally
consistent, and you really do get a bigger benifit than you might think
with the +0.5 the Mil Picket buys you for all your money.

(Crew requirements on the sensors might differ from SSDS because I couldn't
understand how to do crews - I just sort of guessed. Feel free to substitute
the old values.)

One last thing you mention:
>No passive jammers?  seems a bit silly to have active jamming but not passive.
That's mostly because it's a TL10 package. Passive jammers are generally only
good against lower-TL passive sensors and (like all jammers) no use at all
against higher TL opponents; I figured a TL10 pocket empire is unlikely to be
invaded by TL9 opponents, and should mostly be concerned with fighting 
TL10-12 - so wasting money on a passive jammer on most ships seemed
of limited use. The Picket got one because it's mostly for dedicated spy/recon
ships.

>(also BTW I won't be back 'til Monday to respond to any messages).
Unfortunately I'll be away from next tuesday (vacation) but I'll try to catch
up before I leave.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:10:54 +0200
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

At 13:34 1997-08-08 -0500, you wrote:
><snip ALIEN ;) >

Yeah, i know.. What a clichee, but that's what i connected to when i read
the mail. An alien "ALIEN" entity of a 3 lives lifespan.
1. Egg
2. Embryo pregnator, or facehugger
3. living organism ready to kill anyone not of their species

> Am doing a database of objects to drop onto my homepage. It contains Doors
> and hatches, screens, consoles, machinery, engines, furnitures, standard
> rooms and facilities, weapons and even tools that may be lying around in a
> ship plan. I'll have a .dxf & .dwg standard in 2D. What's your thoughts on
> this?

>Excellent!  Sounds time consuming though...  I've not been able to put
>that much detail in.  If you need a web page to make them available on,
>let me know.

I am currently on a vacation from work (whatya callit??) and when i do
something, i do it for real and no "by half" bullshit. By the way.. the
drawings on the starship "stormwind" will be updated soon with an excact
drawing, type "Lawrence C. Cox" real soon when im done whith the
>cad-object< work for traveller. As for those who read the bridge essay i
will have a complete console for every "command" and other "crew" console.

>
>> 
>> Goran S
>
>Matt McL
>
>-- 
>>-----------------------------------------------------<
>Matt McLaughlin    MS Candidate, Nuc Eng, U of MO-Rolla
>mkm@umr.edu              http://www.umr.edu/~mkm
>    One of these days I'll get a real .sig . . .
>>-----------------------------------------------------<
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:20:48 +0200
From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@communique.se>
Subject: Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

At 20:52 1997-08-08 +0000, you wrote:
>Moin Goran Sjoberg,
>
>> Am doing a database of objects to drop onto my homepage. It contains Doors
>> and hatches, screens, consoles, machinery, engines, furnitures, standard
>> rooms and facilities, weapons and even tools that may be lying around in a
>> ship plan. I'll have a .dxf & .dwg standard in 2D. What's your thoughts on
>> this?
>
>	sounds interesting, i sould look around for a dxf<->xfig
>	converter, dxf was an easy format xfig is plain text, so
>	it should even be posible to write per hand.

Tell me what formats you can handle, cause i can convert to great deal of
programs. Here are some examples:

.dwg .dxf .gif .tiff .3ds .bmp .jpg .iff .wmf .sat .eps .dxx 

Have some ideas? Tell me then.. Maybe i am missing some formats.

PS: Damn right it is time consuming but i want to do something all the way.
There is no middleway. What can i say, i am a scorpion after all.

Goran S

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 13:53:20 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

At 08:18 AM 8/8/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
...
>Go read a book, called (I believe) Quantum Electrodynamics, by Richard
>Feynmann. It is a series of lectures, allegedly aimed toward the lay
>public (ghod how we have fallen) written in the late 50', early 60's,
>which explains chemistry from quantum mechanincs, and it matches
>perfectly...

Be aware that Dick Feynman was a genius physicist, Nobel laureate, and many
other things, but he was terrible at knowing the level of his audience.
The Feynman Lectures on Physics came out of his attempt to teach a group of
CalTech frosh their first physics class.  The lectures were meaty enough
that just about every grad student and professor showed up and profited,
but they lost most all of the freshmen very,very quickly.  He managed to
drag QM into something like the fourth or fifth lecture, though admittedly
in passing.  He was not wrong, mind, but it did pitch the class beyond the
sophistication of the group.

Do not get me wrong - I read them first as a frosh, and then again over the
following years, and learned a lot each time.  They were not impossible to
follow, just pitched very, very aggressively.  If I remember his QED book
properly, it was pitched even more aggressively, given that his target
audience was not Cal tech freshmen.

According to one of my Physics professors, who idolized Dr. Feynman, the
level of preparation of the students did not significantly change at
CalTech over that time, so it was not a sampling error.  Feynman was just a
very, very bright guy, who, I think, was never aware of just how much
brighter he was than the average bear.  Contrast with Freeman Dyson,
arguably of the same caliber, who could easily talk about exceedingly
complex topics at a level of sophistication appropriate for his audience.
I have heard both speak, and enjoyed both experiences tremendously, but
they did have somewhat different ways of approaching the world and
describing what they knew.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 14:20:09 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Stop the bloody phone calls!

Well, it happened.

At 2pm, Melody called one of my friends to ask if FF&S showed up.  At 2:01,
she tried to sell him another goddamn mouse pad and T-shirt covered with
Chris Foss Protuberance Art (TM).  By 2:02, he was off the pre order plan,
and trying to decide of a restraining order was needed to keep them from
calling him.

I am thinking of following in his footsteps.  At the very least, when, not
if, they call, I am planning on demanding to talk to Courtney.  Perhaps he
can get rid of the bloody telemarketing.

I gave them a phone number so they could inform me of the status of my
order, not so they could harass me both before and after each shipment to
buy some crap.

Sorry about the invective, but I like phone calls to be worthwhile, and
these are not.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 22:25:09 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#1664] Chocolate on the Mind...

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:24:32 -0400, "Makens, Brian" <bjm@dsc.com>
wrote:

>While eating a chocolate ice cream cone at the local Frosty's, my=20
>mind began wandering onto things traveller...
>
>1. I have read that Vet's don't recommend feeding chocolate to dogs,=20
>because it as a strong narcotic effect on canine brains(similar to =
cocaine=20
>on human brains)

I'd heard that it was actually a poison, but I like your report
better.  It opens up some good adventuring possibilities, such as
you suggest.

>    This got me wondering, if Vargr have the same sensitivity to=20
>chocolate as their distant biological cousins,  does this mean that=20
>chocolate is a dangerous narcotic menace on Vargr worlds?  Visions of=20
>Heroic(or Corrupt) Chocolate Interdiction Task Force agents battling
>the nefarious chocolate smugglers from the infamous Mother See's and
>Hershey's chocolate cartels abound. Every ship from human space is a=20
>potential menace in the struggle to keep Vargr worlds safe from the
>scourge of chocolate addiction.

I would play it that Vargr _do_ have this same sensitivity.  This
could make life interesting in the Julian Protectorate, as well -
what do you do for "drug laws" when a substance that is very evil
for some of your citizens is innocuous to others, and pleasurable
(for different reasons) to both?  Worse, suppose there's a common
minor race around (say the Bwaps) to whom chocolate turns out to
be the most efficient way of providing them with a biological
necessity?  Now what?  I see _lots_ of potential here...

>2. 	That also ead to the interesting idea, that there is a significant=20
>part of the solomani population that would never VOLUNTARILY leave earth
>to colonize new worlds light years away, unless it was proved to their=20
>satisfaction, that either a frequent supply ship is going to be=20
>bringing the chocolate around, or they were shown the carefully
>packed cocoa bean plants in the hold, along with the other terrestrial=20
>crops being shipped.

...assuming that there's a good chance of the cocoa being able to
thrive on the destination planet...

>Then it hit me, that there would also be those who would demand to see=20
>the coffee bean plants, and those who would want to check out the=20
>brewing/distilling equipment in the hold before they would ever agree
>to go find their berth for take off.

Coffee, yes; distilling/brewing equipment, probably not - beer
and wine are essentially TL1 products; freeze distillation ditto;
heat distillation maybe TL3 or TL4.  Believe you me, if there's
no equipment for alcohol production shipped, they'll find it, or
scavenge it, from what they have that they "can do without for a
while".  It's also likely that if the biochemistry of the planet
is broadly terrestrial-compatible (i.e., at least as compatible
as Vland was), there will be something native to the planet that
will make a nice alcoholic beverage.

>So the question is folks,  what vital cargoes are going to be needed=20
>to be shipped before billions of solomani voluntarily leave Terra, for
>"uncivilized" places like sylea, alderbaran, home, dingir and other =
places...

"Vital" was obviously intended to be in quotes, there... :)

H. Beam Piper suggested that coffee and tobacco would be in that
set; you've suggested chocolate; I think there should also be
some sort of crop from which sugar could be produced - either
sugar maple trees (trees, not seeds; it takes too long for the
first crop to come in from seeds), sugar beets, or sugar cane.
It's possible that bees and terrestrial flowers would also be
sent along; honey is nice to have - it sweetens things nicely
as-is, crystallizes into sugar, and can be fermented into a quite
palatable alcoholic beverage (mead).

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1665
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 9 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1666



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)
Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Milieu: E21
Re: Chocolate on the mind.....
Chocolate/Dogs
Vilani Sumerians (Sumerian Vilani?)
Superdense Materials
FF&S1 TL-9 LAD commuter aircraft
Re: Canada etc
FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1662
M: -25 C
IW Terra tech
Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?
Re: Damn Yankees!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:42:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules: Part 5/5 (Advanced)

> Merrick Said;
> >fact that the HEPlaR contains more than the 50MW a g it was given by
> >the PP, and I'd say it would be at least fair to add them together
> >and check vs. 250MW.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being naive, but would the mdrive actually radiate it's full
> output?  Seems to me that some large prtion of the energy output from the
> power plant to the mdrive goes into propelling the vessel.  It's only the
> "leaking" energy that has to be radiated, right?  Not that it takes much
> energy to radiate like a lightbulb in a dark room, but It seems like you're
> throwing around 100% of the PP or mdrive output.
 
For a reaction drive, all of the output that isn't heat absorbed by
the drive machinery goes out the tailpipe.  The shhip goes forward
from conservation of momentum (the sum of the exhaust momentum and
ship is zero (0th order :-)

A reaction drive has fuel (burned to make energy (burned could be
"fused" in this case), and the reaction drive has propellant.  The
propellant is inert stuff thrown out the tailpipe.  More stuff,
bigger thrust---that's why ion drives with huge exhaust velocities
produce small thrusts, they throw very little material out the
nozzle.  Anyway, the propellant in HEPlaR has lots of kinetic energy
(ie: it's hot) so it radiates light (through various interesting
mechanisms, but IR will be well represented).

The bottom line is that much of the energy will end up as EM.
Compared to the input energy of HEPlaR, more will come out than was
put in since we know that the drive must produce more than the
energy put in in FFS to work.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:13:08 -0500
From: Sebastien Normandin <luckyj@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size

>  What folks are overlooking in the debate about size is that the Classic
>400T SDB is not TL10 - can't remember off hand, but I seem to recall that
>it was at least TL12, if not more.  I know that does not sound like much,
>but the gravitic focus laser jump at TL11 means that TL10 SDBs either
>carry big bay weapons or missiles - no laser turrets.  The Classic SDB
>carries two missile bays and two triple laser turrets - under current
>Traveller ship design rules you really can't duplicate a ship like that at
>TL10.

This is probably true. However, 400t is still an interesting and useful
size for an SDB at any tech level. Their performance won't equal a TL-12
SDB, but could still be designed to pack a good punch in a small package.

>  Based on my fiddles several months ago with low tech SDBs, designed as
>opponents for the Merc and Patrol Cruiser THUDDDs, TL10 SDBs should be
>larger, esp. if they are going to use anything but missiles.  TL10 sensors
>are expensive, and it only makes sense to wrap those sensors with more
>armor and firepower, at least in my opinion.  YMMV, of course.

I find the biggest problem is not in the cost of sensors, but in the size
of the power plant needed to power TL-10 thrusters. The fact that thruster
plates don't use up a lot of energy makes them quite a technological leap.
A high G-maneuverable SDB (i.e. 4 or more) needs one heck of a power plant
at TL-10, particularly if armoured and highly streamlined.

Once you cross the 500t barrier, crew size seems to also increase to the
point where you looking for spaces to put them in, especially when you have
such a huge power plant.

At least this is what my little experiments have revealed about a TL-10 SDB
so far.

Armament (lasers vs. missiles) is a whole other thorny issue. Depending on
the concept, it seems that missile racks are a good idea. Presumably, more
targets can be engaged at longer ranges with missiles, but is this
neccesarily the case? Starship combat experts may have something to say in
respect to this.

Sebastian Normandin

luckyj@odyssee.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:02:39 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

At 09:17 AM 8/6/97 +0000, Marc wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-05 15:31:06 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
> This setting has definite possibilities.  
> 
>>>
>
>I agree.
>
>Marc
>
>Draft Outline.
>* Introduction
>* Setting
>* Characters
>* Mechanics
>* The Solar System
>* Vehicles and Equipment
>* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
>drive and the Vilani.
>
>What else?
>
>Marc
>
>
A little more offical clarification of First Imperium Vilani Culture.

Would a First Imperium Govenor have any reasons or motiviation to have a
clandestine operation several parsecs outside offical borders? One line of
adventures I had sketched out assumed that one or more factions in the First
Imperium's provincial government had justifications for unoffical and or
unsanctioned interference with the barbarians just a few jumps away.
Somewhat of a Traveller:Invaders or Traveller:UFO where PCs would be
involved in clandestine operations against unidentified aliens. 

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:01:38 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Milieu: E21

At 12:18 AM 8/6/97 +0000, Michael Barry wrote:
>Two books that I've found contain some fascinating speculations on early
>21st century space exploration were actually written for the Cyberpunk
>game (R.Talsorian). These books are: 
>Near Orbit - R.Talsorian - 1989
>Deep Space - R.Talsorian - c.1993 (contains all the rules in Near Orbit,
>but not the scenario which is, IMO, one of the best near-future RPG
>adventures I have ever seen). 
>
>Most of the 'cyberpunkish' stuff in the CP game really bites, since it has
>shown its age very quickly with advancing technology. But the NO and DS
>modules, despite a few technical inaccuracies, still have some great
>material. 
>
>And finally - they acknowledge "Mark W. Miller" (sic.) along with Gerard
>O'Neill and Werner Von Braun as major influences on their material - thus
>recognising Traveller's place as the progenitor of SF-RPGs. 
>
>Check them out. Very worthwhile if you're considering a near-future space
>exploration game. 
>
>**************************************************************************
>Michael Barry
>mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
>**************************************************************************
>
>
I think I recall seeming them at one of the local stores. I'll have to
revise and see if I can locate them.

Thanks.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:16:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chocolate on the mind.....

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Makens, Brian wrote:

> While eating a chocolate ice cream cone at the local Frosty's, my 
> mind
> began wandering onto things traveller...
> 
> 1. I have read that Vet's don't recommend feeding chocolate to dogs, 
> because
>     it as a strong narcotic effect on canine brains(similar to cocaine 
> on human brains)

No. The reason that dogs can be harmed by chocolate is that one of the
components of cocoa beans, theophylline, is poorly metabolized by dogs. 
Theophylline has a <oh hell what is the name> heart-rate affecting
property. In short it can give them irregular heartbeats, and it kills
them by interrupting cardiac function. 

This will do the same thing to humans, but we metabolize it faster, so
it's in our bloodstream less time.

Secondly, small dogs especially are susceptible to it, because they can
get such a large dose, relative to their body weight. A small 10 lb dog
can easily glom down a pound of chocolate. This can kill them. A 75 pound
dog can do the same thing and just be mildly ill. A 200 lb human can do
that and think, "what a nice snack!".

However, if that human ate 20 lbs of chocolate, the theophylline in that
dose would definitely put you in the hospital cardiac unit.

_Then_ they'd put you in the loony bin for stuffing 20 lbs of chocolate
down your gut;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:12:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Chocolate/Dogs

Brian Makens saidf: 

> 1. I have read that Vet's don't recommend feeding chocolate to dogs, 
> because it as a strong narcotic effect on canine brains (similar to cocaine
> on human brains).

Dunno for certain. One dog owner of my acquaintance says that of two dogs
surveyed (English translation: snuck a bite of a hershey bar while no one was
looking), one reacted to a small dose as a human given a large dose of
codeine (i.e. fell asleep immediately), the other got a protracted case of
the runs. I am given to understand that in many dogs, it can be fatal.

Loren

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 22:33:22 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Vilani Sumerians (Sumerian Vilani?)

Peter Newman wrote:

> "Romans from Outer Space ! - since their audience has not heard of >Sumerians but may have heard of Romans, if only from old movies.

Can't be, some important historical records indicate that ancient 
Sumer was settled by colonists from the 12 colonies of Kobol, not 
Vland.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 22:29:16 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Superdense Materials

Density and Toughness factors aside, I see the essential problem with
superdense materials as being the lack of a sustaining grav 
field.

Materials are largely what they are due to electron-electron repulsion
and interatomic/intermolecular quantum stability effects that result
in repulsion from unstable states and attraction to stable states.  

Ordinary matter is stable, but if you compress it using any sort of
force, such as a strong mechanical compresson (i.e. Journey to the Center
of the Earth), you'll get a counterforce resisting it attempting to
restore the stable state.  The stuff at the earth's core is dense only
under compression, but it will probably expand to normal density if
released from compression.

For gravitically fabricated superdense matter, there is therefore an
implicit assumption in Traveller of a metastable state between true 
degeneracy (white dwarf matter) and the normal stable state.  To my 
knowledge, there are no such states yet known and Traveller mentions 
no sustainer field for the SD materials.  Any comments or information 
to the contrary?

In other words, superdense material as a useful construction material is
not yet a plausible future technology (as are lasers, fusion, etc...).

My guess is that creation of such materials does require gravitic compression,
but also requires manipulation of the quantum manipulation of the material
matrix to stabilize it.

This soundss reminiscent of Bonded and Coherent SD technologies.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:29:08 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FF&S1 TL-9 LAD commuter aircraft

	A TL-9 LAD commuter aircraft which I think might be a fun thing to
see bopping around in M:E21:

Description: its streamlined 140 m^3 displacement slab-shaped fuselage is
slung between 4 counter-rotating Lift Activator Disks mounted fore and aft
on either side of the hull, hung from short airfoil cross-section reverse
gull-winged wings.  The bulbous, glass-encased cockpit is slung low and
slightly forward, giving it a rather droopnosed appearance; aft the hull
tapers backward towards a Y-configuration vertical stabilizer.

	Twin passenger entry doors, mounted at mid-hull and opening onto
the back of the passenger compartment, allow access to the passenger
compartment.  The passenger areas are slightly roomier than is the norm for
comparable aircraft; eight roomy seats are laid out on either side of a
central corridor.  Emergency exit hatches are placed in the ceilings of the
cockpit and pasenger compartment.  A 16 m^3 cargo compartment, accessed by
a side-opening small cargo hatch, is emplaced aft of the passenger
compartment.  4 3.625 Mw MHD power plants are emplaced in the hull at the
base of the wing roots; fuel storage is along the underside of the hull.
Landing gear consist of 4 short retractable landing legs with sturdy pads.



10 Td, Max Takeoff weight 120 tons

Airframe: Fast Subsonic
Thrust: TL-9 LAD, 120 tons thrust
Power plant: TL-9 MHD Turbine 14.5 Mw 2.9 M^3/hr fuel
Controls: TL-9 computer linked
Crewstations: 3 crew cramped crewstations, 16 open passenger stations
Life support: Basic
Fuel: 10 hrs range
Cargo: 9 tons w/full passenger & fuel load


Item					Volume	Mass	Area	Power
	Price

Airframe:				140	3.75	75		1.5
Thrust:						48.32		-13.33	2.416
Power plant:				-24.16	24.16		+14.5	0.24
Controls:					1.68		-0.6	1.2
Crewstations:				-7.5	0.6			0.003
Passenger stations (actually -56):	-62 	3.2			0.16
Life support:				-0.19	0.19		-0.0038	0.0114
300 Km radar:				-1		-0.5	-0.2	1
Fuel:					-29	29
Cargo (1 small hatch, 1 M^3/passenger):	-16	9	-12		0.012

Left over					0.1	loads	0.36	6.54

Rating:

Weight:	74.85 tons
Thrust: 12 tons
Glide ratio: 0: drops comme une brique
G rating: 0.9
Speed: Max 320 kph.  Cruising speed: 240 kph.  NOE speed: 40 kph
Combat move: 111.2 outdoor squares/turn
Agility: 6
Storage volume: 7,200 M^3
Endurance: 13.33 hrs
Range: 3199
Price: 6.54 Mcr
Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:34:00 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Canada etc

	Arg.  I was going to stay out, but since this really deserved
clarification...

Ethan Henry wrote:

[snip]

>
> - it's own set of laws, using a civil code instead of a common law code
>    like the rest of Canada has


	True.  Quebec is a civil law jurisdiction, much like Louisiana;
private law is governed according to principles of the civil law rather
than the common law.  However, public law (criminal, constitutional, and
administrative) is the same as that prevailing throughout Canada.


> - it's own set of immigration laws


	Sort've true.  Although immigration and citizenship are a federal
field of competence, the federal government has delegated a fair bit of
control over the immigration process to Quebec; however, final control over
citizenship remains in the hands of the feds.


> - it's own parliment, which passes laws independently of the federal
>    government


	Much like states in the U.S., the provinces have their own
legislatures; these deal uniquely with provincial fields of competence.



> - it's own retirement fund/pension plan, which the separatist gv'mt
>    uses to play games with the Canadian dollar (well, only once).


	Yup; this was another bit of administrative delegation from the feds.


> - it's own set of culture laws, even more strict, and bizzare than
>    Canada's national culture laws


	This actually implies that Canada _has_ an equivalent to Bills 101
etc.  In Canada, individual liberties and freedom from discrimination are
fully protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  If I wanted to put
up an 80-meter tall pink, yellow and orange neon uniligually French sign in
downtown Toronto I would be free to do so.  In Quebec, if I were to put up
such a sign in English I would be subject to prosecution by the government
(and likely vandalism and numerous hostile editorials in the separatist
press).

	While Canada does have a few sillyish rules on Canadian content in
broadcasting, there are no laws that systematically discriminate against
one particular ethnic group because of an ethnocentrist fear of cultural
contamination on the part of an arguably racist political movement claiming
to represent the majority.


> - it's own (inept) para-military force, which I don't think other
>    provinces have


	The Surete is just another provincial police force much like the
Ontario Provincial Police.


> - even worse drivers than Toronto and bizzare no-right-turn-on-red-light
>    rules

	Quite true.

>
>and other things that I'm not aware of probably.


	Poutine.  Be thankful you're unaware of poutine :).  Actually, I'm
kidding; it's actually great junk food.


>
>At any rate, the only things that Quebec shares with the rest of Canada
>are the dollar, the Canadian passport and a general dislike of weak
>American beer. By all rights, it should be a different country already.

	You left out the Constitution (despite what the PQ says the 1982
Constitution is in force and is routinely enforced by the courts) and all
the shared democratic and judicial institutions that this entails,
centuries of common history and a shared tradition of tolerance and
peaceful co-existence (despite the PQ's rabid attempts at fomenting
discord), and a common love of hockey that transcends any language barrier
:).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:23:19 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

	While some people bash out future histories, I seem to obsess about
gear.  Inspired by the thread on ME21, I decided to design a TL-9 HOTLHL
space-plane (I used FF&S1 since I only had an early playtest draft of
=46F&S2).  Stats follow.  I also have a question: nowhere can I figure out
what velocity is required to attain, say, high Earth Orbit.  I know that
escape velocity for Earth is somewhat over 11 km/sec, but if I understand
correctly you wouldn't need to reach that velocity to reach orbit.

	The thing follows this flight profile: 1hr climb in turbojet mode
to get up to stratospheric levels; aerial refuel with HCD then takes place.
A 15 minute climb at 0.76 G's in ramjet mode follows to gain both more
altitude and speed; finally a 7 minute burn at 1.86 G's in rocket mode is
made to punch it into orbit is made (these numbers take into account fuel
consumption).  On landing, a partial refuel is made during post-rentry
glide in order to allow it to land under power.

	What I'd like to know is how close to Reality=81 are these numbers
wrt velocity at end of each phase:

Turbojet phase: 0.437 km/s (based on max velocity of 1575 km/h)
Ramjet phase: 7.277 kms (based on acceleration of 7.6m/s^2 for 15 minutes
giving increase in velocity of 6.840 km/s over velocity of .437 km/s at
beginning of burn).
Rocket phase:  15.089 km/s (based on acceleration of 18.6 m/s^2 for 7
minutes giving increase in velocity of 7812 m/s over velocity of 7.277 km/s
at beginning of burn).

	Also, since FF&S1 doesn't provide for calculating rate of climb, I
don't know how long it would take the plane to get to ramjet altitude; I
figured 1 hour, but I could be way off.  As well, since FF&S1 doesn't
provide for calculating air resistance, I have no way of accounting for
that during the ramjet phase which annoys me no end since it might throw a
monkey wrench into the works.  And finally, since I don't know how fast you
have to be going to reach orbit, I've designed this thing as one big flying
fuel tank.  If I can reduce burn times I'd like to increase its passenger
and cargo capacity; as it is, this thing is a Learjet capable of going to
the moon; I was hoping for something like a Bombardier RJX.

	So can any of you rocket science types help me out?


Max Takeoff weight 2200 tons

Airframe: Hypersonic
Thrust1: TL-8 AZHRAE, 1008/1680/2520 tons thrust 504/3360/11340 M^3/Hr
Power plant: TL-7 fuel cell 1 MW
Controls: TL-9 computer linked
Crewstations: 3 crew cramped crewstations, 8 cramped passenger stations
Life support: Basic
=46uel: 850 tons HCD (850 M^3), 400 tons HRF (1334)
Cargo:


Item					Volume	Mass	Area	Power
	Price

Airframe:					660	660		220
Thrust1:				-280	280			140
Power plant:				-1	1		+1	0.02
Controls:					1.26		-0.45	0.9
Crewstations:				-7.5	0.6			0.003
Passenger stations:			-20 	1.6			0.008
Life support:				-0.19	0.19		-0.0038	0.0114
300 Km radar:				-1		-0.5	-0.2	1
3000 Km TL-8 radio communicator:	0.08	0.16	1	0.1	0.05
	leftover:					loads	loads
	361.9924
=46uel:					2185	1250
Cargo (1 small hatch):			70	76	-12		0.012
Refuelling probe				0.1			0.001

Left over					0.09	loads	0.36

Rating:

Length: approx 50 m.
Weight:	2200 tons clean
Thrust: 1008/1680/2520 tons
Glide ratio: 5
G rating: 0.45/0.76/1.87
Max speed: 1575/3465/4544
Min speed: 175
Crusing Speed: 1181
Takeoff-roll: 4560 meters
Landing roll: 4724 meters
Combat move: 219 outdoor squares/turn
Travel move: 4724
Agility: 7
Storage volume: 132000 M^3
Endurance: 111 mins turbojet mode only, plus 7 minutes more if rocket mode
is used.
Range: 2646 (but see below)
Price: 362 Mcr








Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 21:51:54 -0400
From: Paul Kestner <paully@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1662

In   Traveller-digest       Friday, August 8 1997       Volume 1997 :
Number 1662
>>>>> 
> On a slightly related topic, what kind of meson beam generator would
> be necessary to replicate the ones used in the "UDH Project"?  Since
> the ones in the project where moon-based, does this necessarily mean
> that they would have to be extremely powerful?  <snip>
> <snip>  Any ideas?
>

   They needed to be large to get the range....
   Try designing a meson gun with a short range of 1 AU.


> "Give me the strength to change the things I can,
>     the grace to accept the things I cannot,
>          and a great big bag of money."

 <<< and could we not let the IRS in on this, ya know, just between
us.... >>>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 21:43:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: M: -25 C

Hello,
>   Hmmm.  Japan may wind up being less of a power when the other Asian
>   Tigers begin competing with it --- unless it re-establishes its
>   empire.  I'd put my long-term money on resource-rich Indonesia and
>   Malaysia, and possibly China as you point out.  When Russia stops
>   falling apart I suspect it will really take off;  Siberia may be THE
>   wild frontier and land of oportunity for the 21st century.  Barring
>   WWIII Europe will certainly be a world power (when has it not been in
>   the last two millenia?) either as a polity or as amalgam of

  I don't have any specific references to either big wars or major
powers; we can I.D. the U.S. as a Great Power via the Screaming
Eagles, and possibly some of the other troop counters may help.
India and Brazil are unlikely to approach "Western" development
levels in the next century - given their demographics the social
changes needed would likely be inimical to Western sensibilities.

  The OPEC nations are largely screwed when cheap fusion arrives
(either RL or Trav) - their resource drops hugely in value when
demand drops and supply increases, both greatly - graph that puppy.

  I assume no major social upheavals in the U.S. (or seismic
events in Japan); discussing these options seems unprofitable,
as it would seem to largely represent a deus ex to remove them
from the field (see 2300 AD, ad nauseam). Otherwise, Japan seems
safe - the risk of competition from wholly owned subsidiaries
is phantasmal, as London realized prior to the Great War.

  As far as it goes, the exploitation of the solar system makes
mining copper in some Indonesian swamp simply uneconomic. And
Siberia will be hard pressed to compete for investment money
with the Belt. And we know that extra-orbital locations do get
developed, and the early stages must be money sinks.

  We can also posit the signing of the Treaty of New York in
2022 as the successful avoidance of a runaway space arms race;
that's a complete shot in the dark, and there's probably a
better explanation (hopefully, it doesn't involve dice...)

  Hmm. Must seek food. Hopefully, new digest when I come back.
        Later,  Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 21:43:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: IW Terra tech

>One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
>no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
>that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
>end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and copies
>it from the Vilani. 

Hello,
  The last suggestion there would fit well with the suggestion from
the RoM dust-up that Solomani grav tech was -1 TL. It would also be
a neat adventure or campaign item for the IW's - capturing a supply
of _real_ grav plates to sell at a premium over the cheap Terran 
knock-offs (by 2150, all of the ruling elite will want grav cars),
or a proper Vilani maintenance manual (with the culturally indicated
index of the 3000 fully annotated supplements to the original). A
military objective might be a maintenance facility capable of limited
remanufacturing capability.

  Of course, Terran troops will continue to put great effort into 
stealing enough Vilani grav trucks for their own needs...  ...they
may even leave them green rather than updating them to primer gray.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:50:52 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?

s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:

> Hey Marc!
>     I can be slow on occassion but I get there eventually.  Since you
> are
> rewriting T4 can you Finally, PLEASE!  Fix the problems with Martial
> Arts and
> put in a system to handle them?  Something like that issue of the
> JoTAS did for
> CT would be Wonderful.
>     It's always bugged me that Traveller simply falls apart on this
> point and
> invariable with each new incarnation of the rules I've had to fudge up
> a fix.
> So please put in a decent system to handle it in some way.
>
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> Stephen

I've always been intrigued by the idea of a Psionically enhanced martial
art.  Using awareness and perhaps telepathy to anticipate moves, find
the weak point, etc.

And shouldn't we a have a Vilani Nerve Pinch?
<ducks>

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 00:53:02 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Damn Yankees!

Steve Daniels writes: 

>Hillbillies - From the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri to the
>Appalachians

   In Ohio, people from Kentucky are called "briars".  I've also heard
the expression "briar hopper", which is presumably what "briar" is short
for.  Briar jokes have a similar structure and punch line to Polish
jokes (i.e. How many briars does it take to screw in a light bulb? 
None, briars don't have electricity; *or*  three, one to screw it in,
and two to get it out of the back of the cow and put it in the light
socket). 

   In Kentucky, "briar" (sometimes pronounced "blar" down there) used to
be interchangable with "redneck", but is starting to fall out of use as
"redneck" increases in popularity.  As a retort to Briar jokes, people
from Kentucky tell the following: What is a buckeye (Ohio being "The
Buckeye State")?  A worthless nut (buckeye nuts are in fact inedible).

   I have also heard the expression "Ridgerunner" used for people from
eastern Tennessee.

>Assorted Nuts - West Coast

   "California, Land of Fruits and Nuts".  FYI, people from northern
California do not like people from southern California.  Northern
Californians consider southern Californians to be flakes and weirdos,
whereas southern Californians consider northern Californians to be jerks
and names that go unsaid in this format.  Northerns also tend to be more
conservative than Southerns in California, though over the years that
distinction has blurred (particularly when you consider San Francisco,
in northern California, which is about as Liberal--and liberal--as any
city in the U.S.).

   ObTraveller: Without question, both humans and aliens would have
nicknames for other races, some of which are used in front of members of
that race and some which are not (unless you are looking for a fight). 
Anyone have a list of names used that have been cited in previous
material?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1666
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 9 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1667



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
Anti-Missile Fighter
Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Traveller CD
Re: Tactical Scenario
Re: Ship Noises
Re: Disintegrators
Re: Damn Yankees!
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re: IW Terra tech
Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size
Re: Definitive Sensor Rules errata: converting LIDARs
Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.
Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 LAD commuter aircraft
re: Milieu -2500
Re: 21st century Terra
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re: Chocolate on the mind.....
re: politics
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 01:06:07 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

John R. Snead writes:

>Harold, you have interesting & useful things to say about Traveller, but
>please cut the politics.  I disagree very strongly with almost everything
>you have said, but I am (with effort) avoiding responding to it, because I
>don't want to embroil the TML in only of the many internet
>Libertarian&Guns flamewars.  *Please* take this to email. 
>
>For the record, not all US citizens approve of militias or oppose strict
>gun control. 

   I've taken the bulk of the political discussion off list already,
thanks.

   For the record, I support *both* the First and Second Amendment--the
Constitution is not a Chinese restaurant menu (choice one from column
'A' and one from column 'B').  

   I didn't say that all Americans support or approve of militias.  I
was merely commenting on their actual nature versus what gets reported
(and believed by some people) in the mass media.

   As for strict gun control, true enough, there are people in the U.S.
who support it--but they are a minority.  If anything, the trend the
last few years has been to loosen controls rather than tighten them,
evidenced by the fact that an increasing number of states are allowing
licensed individuals to carry concealed weapons.

Regards,

Harold

P.S.  Please no flame wars over gun control!  If you dislike my
viewpoint, respond directly to me!

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:25:18
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Anti-Missile Fighter

Can a missile be aimed at another missile in Traveller space combat ?

The reason I'm asking is that according to my draft copy of TTA,
det laser warheads are very expensive (KCr600 to 1200, depending on
size).

On of the ideas I'm kicking around for TL9-11 is building a fighter 
that is cheaper than a det laser warhead.

A 50 megawatt laser is well within the reach of such a small cheap
fighter (2m diameter grav focussed TL11 laser comes in at 5.52 m3,
9.52 t without power source. Cost is KCr40, without the cost of the
focussing array, and range is 30 000km), but it could be easier to use
a conventional or kinetic-kill missile in this role.

The abomination known as Fusion Plus is ideal as a power plant, 
although you could fake it with a fission plant and lots of batteries
(does our Pocket Empire have access to TL10 Fusion Plus ???).

In either case, it would have a small HEPLAR maneuver drive (200 kN),
which can easily be powered by batteries.

I dont have the numbers for active sensors, becasue they werent in
my draft copy of TTA. I cant imagine a 30 000km Ladar or Radar
system would be that expensive though, and long-range target
indentification could be provided by the mother ship.

Tactically, theese fighters would screen the fleet at outside the
15 000km range of det lasers, and take out any missiles that approach
the fleet. If the fighters could be built for less than KCr250 each,
then they will be superior to using det laser missiles.

Any comments ?

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:08:07 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

> here is a little speech i would like to share with the list.  i would
like
> you all to try and decide who gave the speech.  just to make sure you
know
> who the speech maker is i will repost the speech with the name of the
> speaker.....
> 
> "This year will go down in history.  For the first time in, a civilised
> nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more
> efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
> 
> 

Adolph Hitler.

This is a favorite quote of those opposed to any form of gun control. It's
their way of saying "See!! See!!!! See!!!!!!" It does nothing to validate
any argument for or against gun control -- it just makes the quoters feel
like they have the moral high ground.

"Our beliefs are not automatically updated by the best evidence available.
They often have an active life of their own and fight tenaciously for their
own survival."
- --D. Marks and R. Kammann (Psychology of the Psychic, 1980)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:05:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

In mail you write:

> And, as a marine once pointed out to me, the laser sight is as good as a
> flashlight when trying to shoot at the *user* of the sight.  I would treat
> anyone using a laser sight as a big target in a darkened room, for example.
> Of course, the sight usually goes on just before a round is fired, right?
> Maybe just an increase in what some systems call "signature" for the firing
> weapon.

Unless the air is very smoky or dusty, the only trace of the beam will
be the spot on the target. Unless you are the target you won't see any
light from the sight. 

I can confirm this from having played with laser pointers and one laser
sight.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:57:22 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

- -> A little more offical clarification of First Imperium Vilani Culture.
- -> 
- -> Would a First Imperium Govenor have any reasons or motiviation to have a
- -> clandestine operation several parsecs outside offical borders? One line of
- -> adventures I had sketched out assumed that one or more factions in the First
- -> Imperium's provincial government had justifications for unoffical and or
- -> unsanctioned interference with the barbarians just a few jumps away.
- -> Somewhat of a Traveller:Invaders or Traveller:UFO where PCs would be
- -> involved in clandestine operations against unidentified aliens. 
Hmm, this definitely has some merits: Picture this: 
Somewhere on the Edge of Vilani Space, a small undiscovered (so far) 
human minor race exists. It is just about to move into space, when a 
new threat comes into existance. The Vilani discover the Planet. 
Since they have pressing problems elsewhere (IW's perhaps?), they 
can't send more than a few scout ships to analyse the world. This is 
percievedas threat by the people of that world, so the govenments 
decide to found a secret organization (for simplicity, let's call 
them Shado ;-), to battle the invaders. It must be secret because a 
planetwide panic would erupt if the danger became public knowledge. 
To keep everything secret, a second agency, tasked only with keeping 
this under wraps (Majstic, anyone) is founded. They operate in small 
teams of two operatives, dressed entirely in Black, equipped with the 
best secret technology, that the world has to offer.
Other organizations sense there is something afoot and try to uncover 
the secret, to inform the public (Mulder, i saw something!).
Thus, we have a setting where different agencies battle the external 
theat, but also themselves, the Referee could coose the side the 
players are on (Maybe even Vilani) and plot a campain accordingly. 
The Campaign would include elements of UFO (the British SciFi-Show), 
UFO (the Computer Games), X- Files, Men in Black and other series 
along these line.

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:14:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller CD

In mail you write:

> I want the information.  Drawings are nice, but I can produce better sector
> maps with my own mappers than those in the aliens modules (my opinion only,
> of course), and I would profit more from being able to search the various
> GDW items.  Just having a massive rumors collection would help my games 
> along.

Well, there is valuable info in those maps, crude as they are. You can
pinpoint the location (to within a hex or so) of numerous worlds, as
well as the boundaries of the various political entities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:57:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tactical Scenario

In mail you write:

> On problem which I don't think is well addressed is the fact that space 
> weapons are designed to target and track objects 1000+ miles away. They 
> need to be able to traverse very accurately and thus slowly, compared to 
> to a vehicle mount which has to target bigger objects at very much closer 
> range than space combat.

On the other hand the "point defense" weapons *do* have to swing
quickly. And for that matter, can't weapons like lasers engage multiple
targets during a turn (if they have a high rate of fire)? If so, then
they *can* shift aiming points quickly.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:41:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship Noises

In mail you write:

>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> It's too easy to control vermin on shipboard. Since all the "permanent"
>> blankets, and de-pressurize the section you took them from. It'd take
>> some pretty extra-ordinary critters to withstand a few hours of vacuum.
>  
> I don't know -- have experiments been done with cockroaches?  Lots of
> arthropods can survive underwater for very long periods of time, so it
> wouldn't surprise me if they could withstand vaccuum as well.

Even roaches have to breathe. Underwater, it may be possible for them
to get enough oxygen from the oxygen dissolved in the water. But in a
vacuum, not only is there nothing for them to breathe, but they'll be
losing water through accelerated evaporation. After a few hours the
likely result is "freeze dried" roaches.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:34:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

In mail you write:

> Guys,
>
> Only an IDIOT would use disintegrators, as described in Traveller,
> in close combat.  They work (ostensibly) by neutralizing, that is 
> NEGATING, the strong nuclear force between nucleons (not the true 
> gluon-gluon force of which the "strong" nuclear force is but a 
> residue).
>
> The result of disintegrator use SHOULD be the catatrophic nuclear
> detonation of the target, not just a Star Trek "warm white glow"
> accompanied by a hissing sound.  Sorry, but imagine all the material
> in a body becominging fissionable and unstable and supercritical in
> a nanosecond.  

Not really.

Consider, the effect is to turn the nucleus into free protons and
neutrons. The neutrons have a half-life of 17 minutes, so their decay
is going to be messy, but not a "bang". The protons are stable (ie you
get hydrogen).

The energy of a bunch of hydrogen and free neutrons is *higher* than
that of any remotely stable nucleus. So the breakup will *consume*
energy, not liberate it!

You'll get some explosive effects from the (effective) high pressure of
the hydrogen (being crammed together so tightly), and the decay of the
neutrons will release a lot of beta radiation, which will wind up as
heat. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 08:18:18 -0400
From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@cyber-wizard.com>
Subject: Re: Damn Yankees!

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------A879190897ED12195295E12A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> I live in Boston and am from Texas.  In Boston I'm a redneck.  In Dallas
> I'm a Yankee.
> To call all US Yanks is a major insult to Suth'ners.  I'd watch it aroud
> them.  Remember those crackers shot first.
> 

Another category:  Down Easter   Folks from the coast of Maine.  Most
are convinced that there are only two categories.  Folks from "around
he-ah" and folks from "away."  "Away" meaning anyone from north of the
International Border of Canada and Maine or south of Kittery.  To them
Yankees are from Boston or Connecticut. 

I know all this because my Mom's family is from Maine...

- -- 
PGP Fingerprint = D6 74 56 8E FB 52 4E DD  5C 3F 32 FE AE 1F 1C D0

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% Peter L. Berghold -- Unix Hacker at Large                          %%
%% TCG -- MIS Department       PHONE: (908) 392-2722                  %%
%% berghold@tcg.com  (work Email) peterb@cyber-wizard.com (play Email)%%
%% "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it"  %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
- --------------A879190897ED12195295E12A
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Peter  Berghold
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begin:          vcard
fn:             Peter  Berghold
n:              Berghold;Peter 
org:            Who ME?  Organized?!?!?!?!
adr:            ;;14 Rider Lane;Tinton Falls;NJ;08873;USA
email;internet: peterb@cyber-wizard.com
title:          Unix Hacker at Large
tel;work:       (908) 392-2722
tel;fax:        (908) 392-3875
tel;home:       (908) 918-0622
note:           Model Railroader=0A=
Unix System Administrator=0A=
Java Programmer=0A=
C++ Programmer=0A=
Perl Programmer
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x-mozilla-html: TRUE
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- --------------A879190897ED12195295E12A--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 08:17:35 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

Ramjets are effective in the Mach 3 to Mach 6 range, after which current
materials begin to or have melted.  A ramjet is a compressor without a
compressor fan section, and because of that it needs very high mach to
work.  

As for the orbital problem, orbit is relatively easy once youv'e made it
out to the atmosphere, which the USAF considers to be about 50 miles
up.  Above about 50,0000 feet pressures are so low your blood will boil,
so drivers have to use pressures.  By reg we wear them (read never fly
above unpressurized) 25,000 feet.

More soon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:18:20 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: IW Terra tech

Steven Hudson wrote:

>
>>One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
>>no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
>>that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
>>end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and copies
>>it from the Vilani.
>
>Hello,
>  The last suggestion there would fit well with the suggestion from
>the RoM dust-up that Solomani grav tech was -1 TL. It would also be
>a neat adventure or campaign item for the IW's - capturing a supply
>of _real_ grav plates to sell at a premium over the cheap Terran
>knock-offs (by 2150, all of the ruling elite will want grav cars),
>or a proper Vilani maintenance manual (with the culturally indicated
>index of the 3000 fully annotated supplements to the original). A
>military objective might be a maintenance facility capable of limited
>remanufacturing capability.
>
>  Of course, Terran troops will continue to put great effort into
>stealing enough Vilani grav trucks for their own needs...  ...they
>may even leave them green rather than updating them to primer gray.


	I'm heartily in favour of depriving the Terrans of gravitics in
M:E21 (at least early on).  I think that the variety of extremely funky
vehicles that would result, such as walkers, advanced rotary-wing aircraft,
rocket-propelled ground-to-space vehicles and so forth, would really add
flavour to the setting.

	And, they're more fun to design.  That space-plane thingy I just
posted to the list took four stabs at getting the size right because of
thrust and fuel requirements.  Doing grav vehicles is easy; drop in the
black box and a Fusion+ unit and wham; you've got a grav bike that does
20G's :).

	So Marc, please give the Terrans leads in genetics and medicine
since canon requires it, but stiff'em in the gravitics department...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:20:01 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size

Moin Craig Berry,

> Thanks, Mark -- that was exactly my thinking in going to the 500-1000 dt
> range for this THUDDD, but I hadn't gotten the chance to lay out my case.
> I'm actually pretty sure that the 'optimum' displacement without price
> constraints for a TL-10 SDB is more in the 2-3000 dt range, but as this
> THUDDD is aimed at an impoverished PE, I moved the range down accordingly.

	2-3000 means a PAW. Less 1000 tons is less 70 meters which
	is to short for a TL-10PAW. 3.6m round*70m length would be
	a price of 71MCr, but only a effective range of 3.8clicks.

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:59:08 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Definitive Sensor Rules errata: converting LIDARs

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> (the results are pretty close - though they differ somewhat because my TL
> breakpoints are different than FFS, so you can buy a 15.0 LIDAR at TL10 - 
> but that's a small difference.)

	there are a quite a lot small difference, e.g. minimum
	size of fusion drives for low tech.

	can you tell me price, weight, volume, mw for tl10 lidars.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:51:02 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: alien organism and data stuffs galore.

Moin Goran Sjoberg,

> Tell me what formats you can handle, cause i can convert to great deal of
> programs. Here are some examples:
> .dwg .dxf .gif .tiff .3ds .bmp .jpg .iff .wmf .sat .eps .dxx 

	The only formats from this list I use are .gif (bad
	idea as its a raster format) and .eps which is difficult
	to parse.

> Have some ideas? Tell me then.. Maybe i am missing some formats.

	XFig, OpenGL, GKS, PowRay have own formats. 

	Even if I dont manage to read it, .dxf should be
	the base format, gif and eps for html and printing.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:39:21 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 6 - Debate over size

Moin Sebastien Normandin,

> Once you cross the 500t barrier, crew size seems to also increase to the
> point where you looking for spaces to put them in, especially when you have
> such a huge power plant.

	I'll certainly place an offer under size, and even than a
	small fleet operation 1tender+2sdbs will involve 92 people,
	14 of the noble officiers. I'mho there are 4 costs for SDBs:
	purchase - crew - maintaince - munition.  Small "high-tech"
	ships are sometimes better on the long run, than huge missile
	bulk carriers.

> Armament (lasers vs. missiles) is a whole other thorny issue. Depending on
> the concept, it seems that missile racks are a good idea. Presumably, more
> targets can be engaged at longer ranges with missiles, but is this
> neccesarily the case? Starship combat experts may have something to say in
> respect to this.

	In combat missiles are the great equalisers, as the are deadly
	enough at TL10. On the other hand side missiles are very expensive.
	My stats (BL) show a price of 850kCr for a 1/14-45 controlled
	missile (6G - 2 BR/T4 points damage). A 65Mj laser with rof 100
	making the same for cheap (but only at 2 clicks)

	BTW TL12 should show 1/25-80 missiles which should make 3
	points of damage in BR/T4 (4G - cost 2 MCr). Those slow
	fat semi independent missiles are missing in T4 ;-(


- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 06:30:09 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 LAD commuter aircraft

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote
 
>         A TL-9 LAD commuter aircraft which I think might be a fun > thing to see bopping around in M:E21:

[snip of description]

> Life support: Basic
> Fuel: _10_ hrs range

Basic life support does not include a _bathroom_ and this vehicle has a
10 hour duration.  I suggest you change to standard life support and
allocate 1m^3 to water and waste handling.  (Central Supply Catalog pg
67). If you do not everyone on board is going to be a bit distracted
during the later parts of the flight....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 97 15:52 BST-1
From: nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
Subject: re: Milieu -2500

In-Reply-To: <199708081724.NAA26207@phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM>

>   The UN must have been pretty weak until the Wars. So power in
> the classic Realist sense lies with the Great Powers. Unless
> there's been a tremendous upheaval of one sort or another then
> both Japan and the U.S. are going to qualify.

In the article 'One Small Step' in Challenge 45, Charles Gannon 
mentioned ''...the intrasystem skirmishing of the prestellar 
Solomani, circa 2050... Various global and off-world power blocs 
were involved in small squadron actions in the asteroid belt and 
amidst the moons of both Jupiter and Saturn during that time. Some 
confrontations included planetary assaults, such as the fiercely 
fought Titan conflict of 2053, waged between the Pan-Asia Combine 
and the Multinational Corporate Forces.''

The Pan-Asia Combine? Perhaps an alliance between China and Japan, 
which dominates the eastern hemisphere.


Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:24:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: Marcus Teter <marcus@geminga.physics.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: 21st century Terra

Hello all;

	I've been following the discussion of the game setting idea and
have a couple of coments.

1) A decision has to be made as to what direction the world is going as
far as countrys are conserned.  It can be argued on one hand that countrys
are seeking larger political entities such as the EU.  On the other hand,
a lot of the countrys in the world have been splitting into smaller units
(most recently the Czech republic and Slovakia, for no appearant reason
other than self rule of an ethnic group).  Which of these trends will
become prevelant in the 21st century?  Or, could the boarders become
frozen over the next 100 years?  One item of consideration  that should be
taken into account is that many countrys boarders are artificial, having
little to do with the people living there. 

2) I recently heard (I think it was on the Adam Smith show) that India has
the fastest growing middle class of any country on earth.  If this is
true, and the trend continues into the next century, India will become one
of the strongest Economic powers on the planet.

3) On the technical note, when should fusion power become available?  One
expectation of the introduction of fusion is an economic boom unlike any
previous in history.  Should this be the case?  Could it destablize the
the planet?  (This might be a good adventure plot.)

I'll list some more things when they occure to me.  Great topic though;
leaves a lot to think about.

TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 10:37:57 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

g=V(orbital)^2/r   so   V(orbital)=(gr)^1/2   = (GM/r)^1/2


g = GM/r^2   where G=6.67 E-11 Nm^2/kg^2(universal grav constant)
                   M=6.0 E24 kg(mass of planet, assumed to be Earth)
                   r=absolute altitude of orbit from M's center

This gives an g at 200 miles up(read 4200 miles from earths center/6.72
E 6 m) of approximatley 8.862 m/s^2

This gives a V(orb) of 7.72 km/s

Been awhile since I did this stuff, but the order of magnitude and
numbers look right.  BTW, Vescape from Earth is 11.2 km/s, by the
relation

Ves = (2GM/r)^1/2  or 1.41 Vorb

Deadeye

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 97 00:25:23 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Chocolate on the mind.....

On 08/08/97 at 05:16 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

>Secondly, small dogs especially are susceptible to it, because they can
>get such a large dose, relative to their body weight. A small 10 lb dog
>can easily glom down a pound of chocolate. This can kill them. A 75 pound
>dog can do the same thing and just be mildly ill. A 200 lb human can do
>that and think, "what a nice snack!".

This is also why you aren't suppose to let babies and small children have
chocolate.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:30:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: re: politics

okay.. you were right. it was Adolph HItler. and i posted this for a simple
reason. there is no such thing as guncontrol. when you pass "guncontorl" laws
you only effect those who will abide by the law. not the criminals who are
killing people and breaking the law.  we in hte USA have enough laws on the
books to solve our crime problems and we do not need any more extra laws...
these so-called "guncontrol" laws are plecibos to the ignorant and
uninformed.

I have been working on a novel on WW2 and I discovered this quote while
reading through Hitler's speeches and I freaked.  Especially when i heard a
Modern American President give the same bloody speech.  I find Political
discussions on this list agrivating and a fools excersie.  So if you think
you know my politcal beliefs you are wrong. i hold very unquine ideals.  

But I keep this speech with me at all times to remind me history has this
queer thing of repeating itself.... 

"This year will go down in history.  For the first time in history, a
civilised nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our
police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler, 1935

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:13:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

On Sat, 9 Aug 1997 deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

> Ramjets are effective in the Mach 3 to Mach 6 range, after which current
> materials begin to or have melted.  A ramjet is a compressor without a
> compressor fan section, and because of that it needs very high mach to
> work.  

Man, those Spitfires and Hurricanes chasing down the V1's in WWII must
have been faster than anyone realized...;-)

I assume you meant _hypersonic_ ramjets...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1667
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, August 10 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1668



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1665
[T97#1665] Gvurrdon Sector
TL-9 spaceplanes
Re: Anti-Missile Fighter
Re: 21st Century Earth
Re: TL-9 spaceplanes
Re: StutterWarp Universe
Re: Deep Space
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re:  Anti-Missile Fighter
Fragged Digests
Re: Vilani Sumerians (Sumerian Vilani?)
Re: 21st century Terra
Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 6

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:31:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Sensor rules (Anders' comments)

 
> >I do not buy this argument as this would apply to other signatures as well:
> >"If you can detect photons why not use that technology to block the photons
> >thus making the ship invisible"
> >I know the anology falters due to thermodynamics etc but if one can detect
> >say 1 per million neutrino shot off it would be useable for detection but
> >not for shielding.
> 
> My point wasn't about detection but shielding; the neutrino sensor is much
> closer to the sensing ship's power plant than any target, so the signal from
> the target will get completely swamped by the signal from its own power
> plant, unless you can perfectly shield the sensor from the power plant.

I agree, and I also wonder if you would need this shilding to make
your detector directional---it doesn't do you any good if you get an
increase in the neutrino count, but you have no idea from what
direction.  Presumably you'd assume that the detectors tell you
something about direction as they interact with the detector instead
of just giving a count/energy.  Still, noise from your drive would
be nasty :-)  

If you allow such a directional neutrino detector that doesn't
require shielding, then it might be neat to put them on drones that
use other sources of power.  Your own ships would still be a source
of noise, but less so if the sensor was deployed far away.  Might
make good pickets in the Kuiper belt.  Of course it's kinda silly to
rely on catching the odd neutrino that goes through your detector when 
you catch 99% of the IR that goes by :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 13:45:39 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

> Man, those Spitfires and Hurricanes chasing down the V1's in WWII must
> have been faster than anyone realized...;-)
> 
> I assume you meant _hypersonic_ ramjets...
> 

Yep-the type used for transatmospheric vehicles and the sort.  
Can't remember why the limitation exists, but mach 3 is the number I
remember. Must be thinking of scramjets.  As I recall, the ramjet just
has to get going up to the point the compressor section does its job.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 18:55:55 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1665

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:34:39 -0400, RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:

>here is a little speech i would like to share with the list.  i would like
>you all to try and decide who gave the speech.  just to make sure you know
>who the speech maker is i will repost the speech with the name of the
>speaker.....

>"This year will go down in history.  For the first time in, a civilised
>nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more
>efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
>okay folks who said it....

1938, Deutsche Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler.

If this thread is to continue, I think it's probably not
appropriate to do so on the TML.

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:02:31 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#1665] Gvurrdon Sector

On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:34:39 -0400, "Kenneth Bearden"
<dreamer@weck.brokersys.com> wrote:

>I'm looking for Gvurrdon Sector info.  My players don't know it yet,=20
>but they are about to go trans-Imperial.

>Does anybody know of a Gvurrdon map produced by DGP in a mag or other=20
>product?

>I prefer an official sector (one that has appeared in a GDW or DGP=20
>supplement or mag) as opposed to a player generated one, but I will=20
>take either.

>Since DGP did such a fine job of listing every star system accurately=20
>on their large maps (the one in the DGP ref screen;  the one in V&V),=20
>the best of all worlds would be to find a Gvurrdon map and sector=20
>data that corresponds to the star locations shown on page 48 of DGP's=20
>excellent Vilani & Vargr.

I don't know whether the star map matches, but in _GDW_'s _Alien_
_Module_3:_Vargr_, there was complete CT-style information (No
PBG or stellar) for Gvurrdon sector, in the back, as part of the
information included for the adventure "Gvurrdon's Story".

=46WIW, the adventure requires translating an old story, written in
Anglic-transliterated Arrghoun (a Vargr tongue), which gives some
very interesting information about Vargr contacts with humans.

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:17:24 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: TL-9 spaceplanes

>Ramjets are effective in the Mach 3 to Mach 6 range, after which current
>materials begin to or have melted.


Actually, in addition to material heating problems, at high speeds current ramjets
simply stop producing thrust - the drag of air going into their
chambers (and being slowed down enough for combustion to happen) equals
the thrust they produce. Scramjets - supersonic combustion ramjets -
were supposed to overcome this, but haven't been perfected yet.

>This gives a V(orb) of 7.72 km/s
You have to add a couple of km/s for gravity losses for a conventional
rocket (the fraction of the rockets energy that goes into lifting it up
early in flight is mostly wasted) and atmospheric drag. And, of course,
you have to get up from the surface to a few hundred km, which takes more
energy; the proper calculation for that isw the same as a transfer orbit
(you spend fuel at the end to circularize the orbit.) You win some back
by launching from near the equator heading east.

All told, the proper number for a spaceplane (which has no gravity losses
and can use its turbojets to get above much of the air) is probably about
9 km/s (plus ten minutes or so of turbojet fuel.) Save a half km/s for
deorbiting at the end and ten minutes of turbojet fuel for the landing
(enough for one go-around if you miss the runway.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:37:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Anti-Missile Fighter

 
Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:25:18  Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au> said:
> 
> On of the ideas I'm kicking around for TL9-11 is building a fighter 
> that is cheaper than a det laser warhead.
> 
> A 50 megawatt laser is well within the reach of such a small cheap
> fighter (2m diameter grav focussed TL11 laser comes in at 5.52 m3,
> 9.52 t without power source. Cost is KCr40, without the cost of the
> focussing array, and range is 30 000km), but it could be easier to use
> a conventional or kinetic-kill missile in this role.
<snip> 
> Tactically, theese fighters would screen the fleet at outside the
> 15 000km range of det lasers, and take out any missiles that approach
> the fleet. If the fighters could be built for less than KCr250 each,
> then they will be superior to using det laser missiles.
> 
> Any comments ?

	What I do is just put a bunch of SR1 lasers on the mothership 
itself.  A 65Mj laser and SR1 MFD fits inside a 3-ton turret with room to 
spare and is essentially a guaranteed kill on a missile before it gets 
within det-range.  Admittedly, I use BL rules rather than T4 so this sort 
of thing is a little easier to handle, but the principle should work fine 
and it allows you to save money, space, pilots, etc that would have gone 
into all those little fighters.
	You can also use Fusion+ to power your PD lasers since you won't 
use them that often.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:29:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: 21st Century Earth

 
Marcus Teter <marcus@geminga.physics.montana.edu> said:

> 	I've been following the discussion of the game setting idea and
> have a couple of coments.
> 
> 1) A decision has to be made as to what direction the world is going as
> far as countrys are conserned.  It can be argued on one hand that countrys
> are seeking larger political entities such as the EU.  On the other hand,
> a lot of the countrys in the world have been splitting into smaller units
> (most recently the Czech republic and Slovakia, for no appearant reason
> other than self rule of an ethnic group).  Which of these trends will
> become prevelant in the 21st century?  Or, could the boarders become
> frozen over the next 100 years?  One item of consideration  that should be
> taken into account is that many countrys boarders are artificial, having
> little to do with the people living there. 

	This is actually a subject of much current debate among social 
scientists.  A prof in my department recently presented a paper where he 
argued that the future would look more like Medieval Europe before 
the rise of the nation-state, when economic and political allegiances 
were a multi-level tangle.  For instance, someone might be an Indian, 
educated in Britain, living in the U.S., working for a Japanese company, 
and married to a South American.  Describing this persons is much more 
complicated than naming their nation of birth.  Of course, most people 
will likely pretty much stay put as the always have.
	My take on the whole thing is that the nation-state was a very 
effective unit in its time because the efficient boundaries for economies 
and political/military units essentially coincided.  Now, many countries 
essentially exist in supra-national economies.  Cross-border trade in the 
EU is at something like a third of GDP, though trade still acounts 
for only about 10% of US GDP.  So for many countries, the economic 
motivation for a nation-state is gone.  Things like the EU, NAFTA, and 
the WTO (formerly GATT) have replaced nations as the primary economic 
arbiters.  Similarly, military requirements for nation-states have 
diminished with the rise of collective security arrangements, the US 
world presence, and the long shadow of nukes.
	So with no compelling military or economic need to stay in larger 
polities, various ethnic and cultural groups are aggitating for their own 
nations.  Their desire for separation has to some extent always been 
present, but in some cases has recently been exacerbated by what they 
perceive as the erosion of their culture by outside influences through 
TV, movies, fashion, etc.
	Though there may be a proliferation of smaller nation-states, the 
demands of the global economy will require them to be more and more 
similar in their economic policies.

	ObTrav:  I think the ME21 would see the relegation of 
nation-states to a secondary role behind Global or Regional economic and 
security organizations.  For instance, Canada and Britain could easily be 
broken up into their constituent parts politically but remain united 
under larger North American and European organizations, respectively.  
The U.S. is unlikely to break up, but the Federal gov't might wither away 
in favor of the states and international organizations below and above 
them.  Alternately, it could become the de-facto North American gov't by 
taking the lead in designing and managing the various cross-border 
agencies that did the real work of running the NA region.

> 2) I recently heard (I think it was on the Adam Smith show) that India has
> the fastest growing middle class of any country on earth.  If this is
> true, and the trend continues into the next century, India will become one
> of the strongest Economic powers on the planet.

	Projecting those sorts of trends indefinitely into the future is 
a notoriously bad idea.  Some people looked at the rate of growth in 
industrial output in the USSR after WWII and predicted that their economy 
would soon surpass ours.
	No doubt India and other developing nations will continue to 
enjoy rapid economic growth rates, but these rapids rates are possibly 
precisely because they are so backward.  As they develop growth 
inevitably slows to a more moderate rate.

> 3) On the technical note, when should fusion power become available?  One
> expectation of the introduction of fusion is an economic boom unlike any
> previous in history.  Should this be the case?  Could it destablize the
> the planet?  (This might be a good adventure plot.)

	Fusion will no doubt be a great boon, but given that we are 
rapidly moving to a service/information economy, cheap energy is less 
important to our economic growth than it used to be.  Transporation would 
be most affected, and trade would become even easier, which would have a 
positive effect on the economy.  But I doubt it will be as dramatic as the 
industrial revolution or even the coming/current information revolution. 
The best thing about fusion would be that we could finally stop 
putting all that extra carbon into the atmosphere.
	ObTrav:  Fusion power also means fusion rockets which would 
really open up the solar system and present lots of opportunities for 
exploration and adventure by players.

> I'll list some more things when they occure to me.  Great topic though;
> leaves a lot to think about.

	You betcha.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 18:07:01 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: TL-9 spaceplanes

> All told, the proper number for a spaceplane (which has no gravity losses
> and can use its turbojets to get above much of the air) is probably about
> 9 km/s (plus ten minutes or so of turbojet fuel.) Save a half km/s for
> deorbiting at the end and ten minutes of turbojet fuel for the landing
> (enough for one go-around if you miss the runway.)
> 
> Bruce

As I recall, the Saturn V 1st stage r burned 1/2 its fuel clearing the
launch gantry.  Kerosene/oxygen there.  My earlier calc was just an
approximate, as I could only guess at what atmospheric drag would do to
the thing.  

For additional info, the distance to the moon is 242,000 miles off the
top of my head.  I think HEO is considered 10,000 miles and up.  Geosync
is 22,300 .  

I'd guess the drag problem would be significant up to 50 miles.

Check out the SSTO sites, as there may be something useful "out there."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:25:43 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: StutterWarp Universe

The best part is that the StutterWarp drive can be used 
in-system as well as in interstellar space.  The speeds
attainable by the StutterWarp drive in a star system is
pretty damned fast.  It can literally fly circles around
both HEPlaR and thruster plate propelled ships.  The only
thing it cannot do well is operate close to a planet.  The 
drive efficiency drops off pretty dramatically in close
and can only be used to get you into or out of orbit. 
You still need contra-grav to fly and land on a planet.

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

- ----------
> From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Stutterwarp Universe
> Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 3:58 PM
> 
> Stutterwarp is the faster-than-light drive used in Traveller:2300.  
> Some people (like me) like the idea of the Stutterwarp (it was given 
> game stats in the Fire Fusion & Steel book for Traveller:The New Era) 
> as well as the "conventional" jump drive.
> 
> 
> 
> Simon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:30:12 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space

I read a novel once that had a multi-element interferometer
(IR to optical) placed in the asteroid belt.  The system 
had over 1000 1m(?) telescopes placed at regular intervals.
According to the book, this telescope had the resolving power
to observe earth size planets in the Andromeda galaxy.  I
may have the number of elements and their diameters wrong
however.  The astronomers using the system were currently 
studying "Massive Artificial Constructs", such as Dyson Spheres
Rings, and other very large alien-made things.  That sounded
really neat, now I'm going to have to find that book...

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net.net 

- ----------
> From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@astro.ucla.edu>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Deep Space
> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 1:27 PM
> 
> 
> 
> >Get a one meter or bigger scope into space and you'll be able to
> >*see* the gas giants at quite a few parsecs.
> 
> Well, that's slightly overstated - HST can't see gas giants, after all
> (although that's partially dominated by surface ripples in the mirror -
not
> the big figure error, but ripples on the scale of the polishing machine;
> considered acceptable in manufacture because planetfinding wasn't HST's 
> purpose in life.) Still, with good atmosphere correction a 5-10m
telescope
> on the ground can see planets, so a TL9+ 5-10m sensor in orbit certainly
can.
> For a first cut, I would say that a T4 sensor can see gas giants out to 
> a range of 2 parsecs*sensor rating (so a P4 can see gas giants at 8
parsecs);
> this would be an Average task for a sensor operator and take 12 hours per
> target system (but no matter how good the sensor operator there should 
> always be a 1 in 6 chance or so of missing the planet because it's 
> projected too close to the star or something.)
> 
> You can even detect earthlike planets with a really good spacebased
> telescope; first cut I would let a T4 sensor detect earthlike planets out
> to 1/2 parsec * sensor rating (so a P4 can see earthlikes at 2 parsecs);
> this is a Hard task for a sensor operator and takes 100 hours per target
> system.
> 
> Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:43:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

 
I should note that the V-1 was actually a pulse-jet.  That is to say, it relied
on an _interrupted_ flow of air to operate.  Should dig out my copy of German
Secret Weapons from the Ballantine WWII series and read what was actually
there.  It was certainly not a true ramjet.


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 22:49:17 -0400
From: Paul Kestner <paully@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re:  Anti-Missile Fighter

>From  Traveller-digest      Saturday, August 9 1997      Volume 1997 :
Number 1667
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
> Subject: Anti-Missile Fighter

> Can a missile be aimed at another missile in Traveller space combat ?
>
 
  Sure... you may fire a X-ray pumped Det laser/missile at another 
missile that is in flight,  but not at a missile that is in the
process of detonating.   Only 'beam' lasers have the reaction time
to target once a missile starts it's X-ray rod deployment.

  <<snip>>
> On of the ideas I'm kicking around for TL9-11 is building a fighter
> that is cheaper than a det laser warhead.
  <<snip>>> 
> Tactically, theese fighters would screen the fleet at outside the
> 15 000km range of det lasers, and take out any missiles that approach
> the fleet. If the fighters could be built for less than KCr250 each,
> then they will be superior to using det laser missiles.
> 
> Any comments ?
> 

   To really upset the other guy,  put 2.6 meters of armor on this
fighter to give it some resistance <grin> to the tactic of using the
first wave of missiles to clear your fighters.   Of course this forces
a redesign to account for the extra mass of that much armor,  and it
won't be as cheap,  but it would be a surprise.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:58:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: FKiesche@aol.com
Subject: Fragged Digests

Greetings All:

A computer problem fragged a bunch of digests that I hadn't gotten around to
reading yet. Anybody know how to read or view the "images" on the archives? I
can view the uncompacted (?) digests, but the older ones that have been
compacted come up as gook no matter what I do.

Or, alternatively, anybody out there get the TML in digest form that has
about 2 weeks or so worth of back issues still hanging around? I'll mail you
the missing numbers if you do and can help me out!

Thanks much!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:11:50 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Vilani Sumerians (Sumerian Vilani?)

Daniel Ray Lane writes:

>> "Romans from Outer Space ! - since their audience has not heard of >>Sumerians but may have heard of Romans, if only from old movies.
>
>Can't be, some important historical records indicate that ancient 
>Sumer was settled by colonists from the 12 colonies of Kobol, not 
>Vland.

   Cue the "Battlestar Galactica" theme!

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:48:56 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: 21st century Terra

Marcus Teter writes:

>1) A decision has to be made as to what direction the world is going as
>far as countrys are conserned.  It can be argued on one hand that countrys
>are seeking larger political entities such as the EU.  On the other hand,
>a lot of the countrys in the world have been splitting into smaller units
>(most recently the Czech republic and Slovakia, for no appearant reason
>other than self rule of an ethnic group).  Which of these trends will
>become prevelant in the 21st century?

   Good point.  It could be a combination of the two occurs: that is, a
breaking down of larger political units which leads eventually to new
collective arrangements and new large political units.  For example, the
Czech Republic, Hungary, Austria, and Slovenia forming an economic and
defense alliance that leads to a kind of neo-Austro-Hungarian Empire.

>  Or, could the boarders become frozen over the next 100 years?  

   Unlikely, as history has shown.

>2) I recently heard (I think it was on the Adam Smith show) that India has
>the fastest growing middle class of any country on earth.  If this is
>true, and the trend continues into the next century, India will become one
>of the strongest Economic powers on the planet.

   India must somehow overcome the rampant corruption within its
government that sometimes finds its way to the highest offices
(including Prime Minister).  Also potential problems for India are the
ongoing disputes with Pakistan and China.  Pakistan either has nuclear
weapons or soon will, and even a limited nuclear exchange would ruin the
Indian economy.

>3) On the technical note, when should fusion power become available?

   According to Traveller, about 2010.  According to reality, perhaps
some 5-15 years later.  Like room temperature superconductors,
economical picture phones, and the Falco comeback CD/tour, seemingly
just around the corner...

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:27:41 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 6

	Just ran the sixth session of my latest campaign, titled Traveller:
Beyond The Pale.  Here's the post-game summary:

The Cast:

Amr Santayema: a young and sneaky merchant, played by the TML's own Ross
Coburn, who the dudes at the Sylean Atmosphere Surfing Club would find
like, totally guava and gnarly in the extreme.

Lt Kehaaarl: An Aslan ex-marine.  Big, bad, furry, heavily armed, and a
real hit with the kintergarten set (like, we're talking Barney with teeth,
claws, and a gauss gun here).  Played by the TML's Jason Jones.

Sir Loreni Vilash: Vilani merchant from a poor family whose trading acumen
led him to a knighthood, and who will doubtless have massive screaming
post-traumatic stress flashback fits if he ever sees a G-tank with the
Famille Spofulam logo on it again.

Perlis Dalal: a muscular female ex-scout, who most emphatically does _NOT_
read Harlequins.  Played by the TML's Glenn Grant.

Elo Lezaar, a highly geeky Vilani ex-Navy sensors and electronics tech.  He
mumbles, collects meditation rugs and gravitationally abuses bees, and is
played by TML'er Sebastien Normandin.

Lt. Kurek: A tall, blond, shades-wearing former Navy gunner who'll be
manning the nuke damper and serving margaritas to the passengers.



	This bunch of intrepid adventurers is presently assembled, along
with a growingly large number of fellow fortune-seekers, on Mishegaan III,
an LSP mining colony, waiting for an Imperial interdict to lift on a
cluster of main-sequence stars three parsecs away.  However, Ling's
unpleasant labour relations practices have led to a full-scale worker
revolt involving nukes and other unpleasantnesses that have sent them
running about safeguarding corporate records, being kidnapped, having to
resort to personal re-entry kits, and other fun stuff.


	Things went a little differently this week: various schedule
screw-ups occurred; some players arrived late, and others had to leave
early.  Therefore, I decided to issue some players with expendable NPC's
(generated by Paul D. Owensby's wonderful character generation program) and
do the events of the previous game from the point of view of the Imperial
starport security force, in order to get Sir Loreni, whose player had
missed the previous session off the planet and hooked up with the rest of
the party again.  So basically, the first part of the session dealt with
the events of the previous game session from another point of view; the
second dealt with what happened after Sir Loreni rendezvoused with his crew.

	The session opened as a lovely day dawned on Mishegaan III:
completely sunny skies, with pressure at 0.13 atmospheres and temperatures
in the low -20's.  Sir Loreni sauntered out to the spaceport bar, threading
his way through the crowded concourse, to meet with a contact from Ling's
supply department to negotiate the purchase of some cargo.  Negotiations
were fruitful; he acquired 40-odd tons of plascrete slurry and 21 tons of
industrial diamond sheeting, which were to be delivered to a cargo loading
dock shortly.

	In the meantime, Lt. Ningaa Butall, of His Imperial Majesty's Army
(played by Seb Normandin), was on duty when he received a call from Lebar
Eehrt, the spaceport chief, requesting him to take a private and go find
Sir Loreni in the bar and bring him up to the spaceport operations room
(for commendation in his crew's having saved Ling's corporate treasury the
previous day).  Lt. Butall summoned Pvt. Chauncey Wilsonthorpe (played by
Ross Coburn in a manner somewhat reminiscent of Baldrick in Battledress).
Pvt. Wilsonthorpe promptly folded out of his card game, suited up in
Battledress, checked a PGMP-12 out of stores, and clomped off to meet Lt.
Butall.

	Sir Loreni was somewhat disturbed by their arrival; his contact
from Ling immediately excused himself to the bathroom and began unscrewing
vent grills in order to make his getaway.  After being informed that he was
not yet under arrest for anything, he willingly accompanied them up to the
spaceport operations room (and despite my best efforts, Ross rolled
amazingly well on his battledress-related rolls and didn't walk through any
walls or decapitate himself saluting with his visor up and so forth).

	In the Op Room, Lebar Eerht greeted Sir Loreni; while a recording
of SIr Loreni meeting with Liontzel Huutzaa and two of his crewmembers
prior to them entering the colony armed to the teeth played on his desk
screen (events which Sir Loreni had previously denied knowing anything
about), he offically thanked him for his invaluable assistance in foiling
the nefarious terrorist plot to seize Ling's records and treasury (and by
showing him the video also warned him to toe the line in future).

	As this was going on, a broadcast was suddenly recieved from the
terrorists who had kidnapped Amr, Dame Berek'san, and Vought Hendaar
(Ling's CEO); the video showed the unconscious bodies of Dame Berek'san and
Hendaar, and apnned over to show Amr at the controls of an ore hauler going
through his preflight routine at gunpoint; the terrorist leader threatened
dire reprisals should any action be taken against them.  Lebar Eerht gave
orders that they be allowed to depart; then recieving a comm call, he gave
orders that Sir Billum Egassa's ship (a heavily armed privateer; these were
the ones who shot down the ore carrier last session) also be allowed to
depart.

	Moments later, the horrified comm station technician warned Lebar
that they'd just recieved notice that a nuclear device had been emplaced
under the spaceport tarmac; tuning into the appropriate frequency, they
overheard the bomb (actually a standard (if somewhat large) mining fission
nuke) broadcasting its registration number, kilotonnage (341 kt), time to
detonation (at this point, 45 minutes), and polite requests to clear the
area as per Imperial regulations.  However, the bomb appeared to be
shielded somehow, as interrupt code transmissions failed to deactivate it,
so Lebar Eerht ordered Lt. Butall and Pvt. Wilsonthorpe to proceed to the
vehicle pool, rendezvous with a bomb disposal technician, and proceed to
deactivate the bomb.  They saluted and hastily left.  A general evacuation
warning was broadcast.  The Versailles was the first ship away, already
having been warmed up to go chasing after Amr's kidnappers.

	Eerht then requested Sir Loreni to proceed, with the aid of Sgt.
Dentask and Cpl. Mibutaakaagash (two more expendable NPCs) to the spaceport
kindergarten, where there were a half-dozen small children belonging to
spaceport staff.  He gave Sir Loreni a data chip containing the location
and pass codes to a vessel that Vought Hendaar had secreted away nearby in
case he had to make a quick getaway; Sir Loreni was to take the children
and proceed to the getaway vessel, and evacuate them if neccessary.

	Meanwhile Lt. Butall and Pvt. Wilsonthorpe had proceeded to the
vehicle pool, where they met up with a bomb disposal tech (well, actually,
one of the spaceport's engineers who knew a bit about mining nukes); the
tech provided them with a route (based on hastily done densitometer scans)
into the mine and to the secretly dug tunnel under the spaceport tarmac
where the bomb had been emplaced.  Piling into a grav speeder, with Lt.
Butall driving, they headed for an access shaft into the mine.  As Lt.
Butall's player failed his grav craft roll, the ride was a hair-raising,
bouncing-off-the-walls-and-ceiling, high-speed one down mineshafts, along
corridors and so forth, with the bomb's warning broadcast providing such an
annoying accompaniment that Pvt. Wilsonthorpe switched it off.

	Finally, after really damaging the grav speeder's paint job, they
reached the mouth of the recently dug tunnel leading to the bomb
emplacement.  Arriving at the bomb (which was wrapped in a great deal of
shielding with only the broadcast antenna protruding) with 20 minutes to
spare, they contacted the Op Room.  Op Room responded with a horrified "You
idiots!  Get out of there NOW!".  Quickly switching the bomb warning
broadcast back on, they heard "...thirty-one seconds to detonation.  I
lied!  Twenty-nine seconds to detonation.  Twenty-eight.  Twenty-seven.
Twenty-six..."

	Lt. Butall, Pvt. Wilsonthorpe, and the bomb tech piled back into
the grav speeder in a complete panic, and Lt. Butall floored it out of
there, with Seb failing his grav craft roll again.  Lt. Butall lost control
of the speeder, which went caroming off the walls and tumbling end-over-end
down the tunnel before finally coming to rest completely totalled.  As they
hung there in their restraint harnesses, the inertial compensators and
Tl-12 airbags and seat belts having saved them from serious injury, they
heard an explosion echo down the corridor.  The bomb's detonator had gone
off, and the Versailles' nuclear damper had prevented it from fissioning,
although they didn't know this.  They radioed back to the Op Room for a
lift back.

	Meanwhile, Sir Loreni and his escorts were proceeding down a
corridor in a ground car when a breaching charge blew in a wall some meters
down the hall.    Sgt. Dentask quickly bailed out of the car, ran to an
almost safe distance, and fired a round from his PGMP-12 into the hole; Sir
Loreni took a bit of sunburn from the blast, and was quite horrified to see
what it had done to the revolutionaries who had been about to burst through
into the corridor.

	Arriving at the kindergarten, they found the children (six of them)
already suited up in environment suits and respirators; after the children
had been loaded on board they proceeded to the nearest vehicle airlock,
where there was a moment's delay as Sir Loreni had to change into an
environment suit.  They then floored it out of there towards their
destination, approximately 30 kilometers east.

	The trip was event-free, with Sir Loreni narrating it like a field
trip for the children's benefit: "Today kids, we're going to see some
rocks!".  A few minutes after the bomb's scheduled detonation time had
passed, Sir Loreni recieved a call from Lebar Eerht.  Eehrt told him that
his crew had managed to damp the nuke, thus saving the spaceport from
destruction.  He asked Sir Loreni to nevertheless continue evacuating the
children as there was some fairly heavy fighting taking place in and around
the spaceport.  He also noted that Amr ought to be visible overhead soon on
his PRK re-entry; shortly thereafter Amr's meteoric trail did indeed appear.

	Some time later, they arrived at their destination, which appeared
to be a medium-sized mountain, with what appeared to a long-disused linear
accelerator track about three km long, mounted on massive trestles,
emerging from a cave at its base.  The accelerator was a relic of the
Second Imperium, formerly used to fling ore buckets into orbit.  Sgt.
Dentask parked the car behind a boulder a kilometer away from the cave, and
he and Cpl. Mibutaakaagash proceeded to scout out the cave.

	Shortly thereafter, however, Sir Loreni and the children were
horrified to see a brilliant flash, followed by a mushroom cloud, loom over
the horizon in the direction of the spaceport (this was the second nuke,
that destroyed the Ling mining colony town).  At this, several of the
children panicked, and started running back towards the spaceport, ignoring
Sir Loreni.  Sir Loreni had to go running about rounding up the poor
terrorized children.

	Somewhat earlier, Lt. Butall and Pvt. Wilsonthorpe had been picked
up and returned to the Op Room.  There when the second nuke had gone off,
they'd been ordered to join Sir Loreni and assist in evacuating the
kindergarten.  Issued with one of the few grav speeders remaining in the
vehicle pool, they quickly took off.  Encountering hostile tracer fire
coming their way, Pvt. Wilsonthorpe (who was driving this time) was forced
to take evasive maneuvers.  Arriving at the mountain after some NOE flight,
they saw Sir Loreni running around with a child under each arm chasing a
third.  They landed and assisted him in collecting and reassuring the
children.  Once their charges secured, Lt. Butall ordered Pvt. Wilsonthorpe
to aid Sgt. Dentask and Cpl. Mibutaakaagash in securing the cave.

	[at this point Jason arrived; I gave him Sgt. Dentask's character
sheet and we ate some pizza]

	Some minutes prior, Sgt. Dentask and Cpl. Mibutaakaagash had
encountered hostile fire; however, the Rye-Ben revolutionaries had not been
equipped to deal with Battledress and PGMP-equipped opponents, and they
quickly found themselves pinned down inside the cave mouth.  Sgt. Dentask
ordered Pvt. Wilsonthorpe to fly the grav speeder along the top of the
linear accelerator, land, and proceed to catch the hostiles in a crossfire.
Pvt. Wilsonthorpe complied, parking the grav speeder on the linear
accelerator about two kilometers from its end.

	Proceeding down the accelerator on foot, he quickly reached a point
where he could observe the revolutionaries, who were in the process of
affixing a piece of white cloth to the longest weapon they could find.  He
fired a warning shot into the cave wall over their heads, and reported the
fact that they appeared to be ready to surrender.  After radio contact was
established, the revolutionaries confirmed this fact as they picked
themselves out of the rubble; they laid down their weapons and were
escorted out of the cave by Sgt. Dentask, who confided them to Cpl.
Mibutaakaagash.  The revolutionaries claimed to be members of Ling's house
union and denied having any links with the several unofficial unions who
were wreaking most of the havoc currently taking place.  They informed Sgt.
Dentask that many non-combatant Rye-Ben had been escorted to a nearby cave,
and pleaded that these be spared.  Cpl. Mibutaakaagash ordered them to lie
down ont he ground, and kept them covered.

	Afer Sgt. Dentask had taken charge of the prisoners, Pvt.
Wilsonthorpe had continued scouting out the cave on foot.  At the head of
the linear accelerator, he found a long, rakish, 200td needle airframe
starship, mounted on some sort of jury-rigged sled designed to ride the
accelerator's rails.  What appeared to be locally-manufactured Tl-7 solid
rocket boosters were attached; two to the sled and four to the ship.  He
was joined shortly thereafter by Sgt. Dentask, Lt. Butall, Sir Loreni and
the children, with Cpl. Mibutaakaagash remaining at the cave mouth guarding
the prisoners.  Entering the pass codes to the ship, Sir Loreni and the
soldiers boarded the empty ship, which the starship-savvy Sir Loreni
recognized as an FSY Moonshine Rapid Insertion/Extraction Starship, with
some retrofitted solid rocket boosters, mounted on a rocket-boosted sled
that rode on the accelerator track.


	Had FSY been alerted to this unorthodox modification, they would
have warned the Moonshine's owners that this would completely void their
warranty, and been really annoyed that they hadn't thought of it
themselves....


	Sir Loreni and the soldiers discovered a largely spartan interior,
notable for the numerous grav tanks at the crew stations and in the
passenger quarters.  As the cockpit proved to rigged only for G-tanks, Sir
Loreni proceeded to disrobe and enter the grav tank, which involved filling
his lungs with an oxygen-bearing fluid, fed to him via a face mask.  It
also involved filling his digestive tract with a Tl-9 smart gel which
prevented internal organ displacement under high G, via a somewhat
uncomfortable rectally inserted probe.  Once these unpleasant formalities
taken care of, he filled the tank with its fluid and began warming up the
ship's power plant and drives and reconfiguring the control panel so it
made more sense to him.

	Meanwhile, the soldiers had raided the galley, dispensing snacks to
the children, and then began the difficult task of getting the kids into
the grav tanks for takeoff.  However, Lt. Butall had neglected to post
guards outside the ship.  Sgt. Dentask was suddenly surprised by someone
slapping something onto his back, then the sound of feet running for the
airlock.  Stumbling around trying to view his back with his gun camera, he
turned his back to the children he was strapping into their G-tanks.  The
children, spotting what was on his back, screamed.  Sgt. Dentask stumbled
out into the corridor; Pvt. Wilsonthorpe spotted what appeared to be a
sticky bomb stuck to his back.  Pvt. Wilsonthorpe bravely leaped to the aid
of his comrade, shoving him out the airlock before he could blow up inside
the ship.  Spotting a bunch of Rye-ben at the base of the boarding ladder,
Sgt. Dentask heroically went crowd-surfing in battledress, squashing
several of them before blowing up.  Meanwhile, a second group fired a
jury-rigged mining laser at Pvt. Wilsonthorpe.  Screaming to Sir Loreni to
take off, Lt. Butall sprayed SMG fire out the airlock while hitting the
emergency close button.

	Sir Loreni, meanwhile, was in the middle of reconfiguring the
rather idiosyncratically set up pilot's control board in his G-Tank.
Spotting a likely-looking large red button labelled "Maximum Angle of
Attack"*, he hit it.  This had the effect of firewalling the ship's 6G
T-plate drive, flooring its 3G HEPlaR auxiliary drive, and igniting the two
solid rocket boosters strapped to the sled and the four SRB's strapped to
the ship which together added a further 6 G's worth of thrust.  The
Moonshine surged forwards like it had been punted by a giant, accelerating
at a truly demented 15 G's (well over its structural G-limit).  Poor Lt.
Butall was killed instantly by the 2-meter fall to the end of the corridor;
his massive deceleration trauma was compounded by the impact of the
battle-dressed Pvt. Wilsonthorpe who likewise did not survive the fall.
The revolutionaries in the cave were instantly vapourized by the SRB and
HEPlaR exhaust.

	Going from 0 to 60 in a terrifyingly small fraction of a second,
the Moonshine screamed up the linear accelerator track, with Sir Loreni
getting crushed back into his seat by 10 G's (three being compensated by
the ship's inertial compensators and another two by his G-tank).  The cave,
meanwhile, was getting radically enlarged by SRB exhaust and the
relativistic plasma from the HEPlaR drives.  In the back, the children were
all screaming "Wheee!" but since they weren't plugged into the intercom,
Sir Loreni didnt hear this over the catastrophic racket.  They emerged from
the cave mouth (500 meters from their starting point) less than three
seconds after Sir Loreni hit the button, blasting out of it like a cork out
of a thermonuclear champagne bottle, their combined exhaust dramatically
reshaping the mountain and melting the accelerator track behind them like
butter under a blowtorch.  The grav speeder that the late Pvt. Wilsonthorpe
had left partway up the track was simply smashed to bits; it didn't even
check the Moonshine's acceleration.

	A few seconds later, the Moonshine shot off the end of the track,
the sled falling away beneath it, to impact many kilometers downrange.
With the acceleration dropping to 14 G's, the autopilot slewed its nose
upwards and the Moonshine surged skywards like the proverbial bat out of
hell.  Sir Loreni began to lose consciousness, but was revived by the
G-tank's injecting him with a near-overdose of Combat Drug and zapping him
with an electric shock via the rectal probe.  Adrenaline and electric
shocks rushing through his system, he continued to try and bring the ship
under control as it hurtled upwards, the creaking and popping of
overstressed structural components echoing throughout the ship.

	Meanwhile, back on the Versailles, Elo was surprised by a
surprising new sensor reading; sensors were picking up a truly spectacular
exhaust plume boosting off the planet; it showed strong gravitic emissions,
a massively red-shifted hydrogen line in its spectrum, and spectrogrphic
emissions consistent with low-TL solid rocket exhaust.  However, since the
Moonshine's EMS masking was defeating the Versailles's sensors, this
exhaust plume appeared to have no associated ship.  Initially thinking that
it was a missile, Amr alerted the defensive gunners, but ordered them to
hold their fire when it was clear that whatever it was it was not directed
at them.

	Detecting the Moonshine via optical observation, Elo hailed it; Sir
Loreni recieved the transmission, but due to the fact that he was currently
breathing a liquid and was under 9 subjective G's, he was unable to respond
coherently.  A few seconds later, the empty SRB's automatically dropped
off, peeling gracefully away from the ship whose acceleration dropped to a
mere 9 Gs, of which Sir Loreni only experienced a subjective 4, and Sir
Loreni was finally able to cut the throttle.  Establishing contact with the
Versailles, he requested that they rendez-vous with him.  The Versailles
then notified the Imperial squadron, reuesting that they send a pinnace to
transfer the children from the Moonshine and the rescued Imperial troops
from the Versailles

	After some time spent accelerating after the hurtling Moonshine,
whose structural integrity was gravely compromised, the Versailles managed
to match speeds with it.  Kehaaarl, Perlis, and Amr donned EVA suits and
boarded the Moonshine.  Kehaaarl was first into the ship.  Moving forwards
to the cockpit, down the slightly out-of-true  main corridor, he
encountered Sir Loreni exiting the G-tank before it had fully drained,
coughing up respiratory liquid.  Leaving the cockpit rather slimed, Sir
Loreni headed for the san, retching as he went.

	Kehaaarl and Perlis helped the children out of the G-tanks, none of
them seeming the worse for wear.  Their initial fear of Kehaaarl wore off
quickly, and they began to scratch his ears and pet him, which eventually
escalated to things like whisker-pulling and the like.

	Meanwhile, Amr, after claiming salvage rights with the Navy, began
investigating the ship and discovered the Moonshine's (highly illegal)
jettisonable secondary transponder (which unlike its regulation
transponder, could be set to broadcast any number of spurious ID codes,
then left in a legitimate orbit while the ship itself was off committing
mischief).  Releasing it, he raced to the airlock.  EVA'ing the transponder
to the Versailles' airlock, trying to get it aboard before the Navy
arrived, Amr miscalculated its inertia and managed to badly break his leg
wrestling it into the airlock, whereupon he passed out.  Leilei, their
engineer, got him inside the ship; Perlis, who had crossed back after
hearing the mishap, helped her wrestle the transponder into Amr's quarters.

	Kehaaarl, left alone on the ship, was having an increasingly
difficult time keeping the children under control, let alone away from the
remains of Lt. Butall and Pvt. Wilsonthorpe embedded in the bulkhead at the
end of the corridor.  When the Marines finally arrived, finding him with
one child held in each paw and a third clinging to his leg, he helped them
peel Lt. Butall and Pvt. Wilsonthorpe off the bulkhead and stuff the
children into rescue bags.  In the meantime, the Imperial troops were being
transferred off the Versailles.  Towing the thoroughly exhausted Sir Loreni
across in a rescue bag, Kehaaarl returned to the Versailles.

	After informing them of the cargo he'd lined up for them, Sir
Loreni headed for his quarters, a nice warm bath, and a bottle, and passed
out.  The Versailles headed back to what was left of the spaceport.  After
a four-hour wait while the Marines finished securing the port and environs,
they landed, and commandeering some cargo loaders, began loading their
cargo on board.  While this was taking place, Amr began advertising passage
out for the Ling refugees left on plant; he managed to round up three (two
security officers and a secretary) who were willing to pay the viciously
inflated price he was charging.  Amr also managed to inveigle some newly
declassified system data on their destiantion out of the Navy.

	After loading had taken place, the Versailles lifted off, finally
heading for jump point, which they reached 2.7 hours later; engaging the
jump drive, Perlis sent them on their way to the Shugilli cluster.

	And we called it there.  More next week.


* A reference to _Cosmic Banditos_ by A.C. Weisbecker.



Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1668
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Sunday, August 10 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1669



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: StutterWarp Universe
Re: Grav-focussed lasers
Orbital mechanics tables
Re: 21st century Terra
Mileu: E21
Re: Anti-Missile Fighter
RE: Stop the bloody phone calls!
Alaska and Independance, and Colonies
Re: US Armed Forces... :-)
Bye....
Re: StutterWarp Universe
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: Grav-focussed lasers
Re: StutterWarp Universe
Re: IW Terra tech
Re: Rolling Dice for CharGen
Re: Rolling Dice for CharGen
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
The culture

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 97 00:21:06 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: StutterWarp Universe

On 08/05/97 at 01:25 AM,  "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> said:

>The best part is that the StutterWarp drive can be used 
>in-system as well as in interstellar space.  The speeds
>attainable by the StutterWarp drive in a star system is
>pretty damned fast.  It can literally fly circles around
>both HEPlaR and thruster plate propelled ships.  The only
>thing it cannot do well is operate close to a planet.  The 
>drive efficiency drops off pretty dramatically in close
>and can only be used to get you into or out of orbit. 
>You still need contra-grav to fly and land on a planet.

Eric, the details depend on whether you follow the T2300/2300AD model
really closely or not.  If you strictly adhere to T2300, StutterWarps
become useless in low orbits, so you can't use them to get from the planet
to orbit or orbit to the planet.  They also don't create any real vector
change, so your ship has to match real orbital velocity som other way. 
Finally, there is the 7.7 light year limit...if you don't discharge the
stutterwarp drives in a gravity field every 7.7 light years they irradiate
your ship and kill everybody aboard.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:46:14 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Grav-focussed lasers

>... I'd rather like
>lasers to have much shorter ranges... then we could go back to
>having small ship-to-ship missiles, and fusion guns, and... y'know,
>old stuff like that.

I would also like to see this. Not to get rid of the grav-focussing
handwave, but to make the Terran-Vilani Wars milieu more distinctive. I
would prefer if the technologies in each milieu were different enough to
have characteristic ships, combat tactics, designs, and campaign styles.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:26:20 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Orbital mechanics tables

Thanks to the physics whizzes for the info about velocity required for
orbit. Does anybody know if there are tables for achieving orbit for the
different kinds of planet (eg Size 1,2,3...,A)? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:25:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: 21st century Terra

>1) A decision has to be made as to what direction the world is going as
>far as countrys are conserned.  It can be argued on one hand that countrys

  The easiest thing to do is avoid guessing, and assume minimal changes.
The designers might do differently, but doing so on the list becomes an
exercise in guessing how long before it becomes a flamewar.

>true, and the trend continues into the next century, India will become one
>of the strongest Economic powers on the planet.

  Lies, damned lies, and statistics :) ; their growth rate is high because
their starting point is so low, relatively. Besides, if this trend should
somehow not flatten out, the social tensions will be enormous, both with
the land-owners who won't like being squeezed for power-sharing, and the
poor who will still have squat, from a material-consumer POV (i.e., a
"middle-class" standard of living).

>3) On the technical note, when should fusion power become available?  One

  Whenever is convenient to fit the case being made, right? Or
someone could look through source material - Triplanetary has
the years listed for scenarios IIRC, so someone need only check
for the intro on Torches.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:06:44 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Mileu: E21

I like the idea of the Terrans having a few technological *disadvantages*,
balanced by a number of advantages. This will give Milieu E21 a
significantly different flavour to the other Milieux. 

I don't want to rekindle the flamewar about technology, but I suggest
(only a suggestion, mind) the following modifications to 'Terran Tech': 

TERRAN TECH LEVEL MODIFICATIONS
- -2 Gravitics/Thrusters, 
- -1 Jump technology (since these technologies are
nowhere in sight as at 10AUG1997...)
- -1 Power generation, energy weapons (since we have not developed such
things as the TL8 Laser rifle or fusion power, although we have a few
promising leads...)
+2 Computers, Medical, Genetics (these are the areas which, as of 1997,
seem to be moving ahead with still-frenetic pace...)
+1 Robotics, non-energy weapons (ditto, pace somewhat less frenetic but
still impressive...)

'Flavour' of Terran technology: (initially) non-gravitic, relying on
reaction drives; space weaponry heavily biassed towards missiles, nukes, 
railguns, shot cannisters, DU penetrators and the like, BUT guided with
highly accurate semi-intelligent 'brains'. Computers involved in
every aspect of life. Genetics 'dabbling' may have
led to a number of (very minor) modifications to human gene stock, as well
as a series of modified animals - note most of these will not be
intelligent (eg supercows enhanced for milk, not for carrying on
intellectual conversations). High medical technology will have significant
positive impact on morale; prosthetic/bionic limbs (etc) will be common,
particularly among Belters and space warfare veterans. Overall effect:
near future 'hardtech'. Jump technology developed late, and flawed
theoretical basis means that initially only useful for insystem
'microjumps'. However, even this gives a massive boost to insystem trade
(and therefore the economy). 
Power generation technologies based on fission, battery, solar, chemical
etc. sources - some fusion plants exist, but until the mid-21st
century, they are mostly too large for any use in gameplay. 

Some reasoning: 
The standard Traveller technological tables are not handling the changes
in technology over the last 20 years. Rather than change our definition of
technology, why not just declare us 'Terrans' as an 'anomaly' - and
'tweak' Terran technology to suit what we see around us...the Vilani would
maintain their 'standard Traveller' technology. 

That 'canonical technology', up to M:1100, is Imperial standard, which was
based heavily on Vilani measurement standards established by the AAB and
dating to the First Imperium. The Vilani had thousands of years to develop
a 'stable' technological level of (almost uniformly) 11, with the
exception
(for cultural/environmental reasons) of medical and genetic technologies, 
and (for cultural reasons, ie racial myths of cybernetic 'monsters' AKA
war machines left on Vland from the Ancients' Final War) also some
retardation in computer and (particularly) robotics technology.  

VILANI TECH LEVEL MODIFICATIONS
- -3 Medical, Genetics. 
- -1 Computers. 
- -2 Robotics. 
'Flavour' of Vilani technology: Labour intensive (few robots/less computer
enhancements) ---> large ship crews. 
Lack of medical technologies should extend to low berths as well - I think it 
unlikely that the Vilani will have low berths, given that the real trick
is not freezing somebody, but thawing them out...  ;)

Once the Terrans conquer a few Vilani warships, they will capture
working models of gravitics/thrusters, etc. that they can reverse
engineer. The Terrans thus 'catch up' very rapidly in the critical fields 
of gravitics, power generation, energy weapons, jump drives, etc. 
Vilani successes will also give them models of Terran technology, but
Vilani scientists consider them 'perverted devices' and
impound or destroy them. The one thing the Vilani will *not*
do is try to copy Terran technology...cultural factors again.  

So the Terrans maintain their lead in many technological fields, lose
their disadvantages in most others, and maintain their breakneck rate of
technological development. 

And eventually win the war. 
**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:32:11
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Anti-Missile Fighter

A
>
>	What I do is just put a bunch of SR1 lasers on the mothership 
>itself.  A 65Mj laser and SR1 MFD fits inside a 3-ton turret with room to 
>spare and is essentially a guaranteed kill on a missile before it gets 
>within det-range.  Admittedly, I use BL rules rather than T4 so this sort 
>of thing is a little easier to handle, but the principle should work fine 
>and it allows you to save money, space, pilots, etc that would have gone 
>into all those little fighters.
>	You can also use Fusion+ to power your PD lasers since you won't 
>use them that often.
>
>- -JM

Fighters could attack the missiles from different angles, preventing the
missiles having a cloud of sand pumped out ahead of them by other missiles
dedicated to their defense (the old SFB ECM drone escorting a swarm).

>
>> Can a missile be aimed at another missile in Traveller space combat ?
>>
> 
>  Sure... you may fire a X-ray pumped Det laser/missile at another 
>missile that is in flight,  but not at a missile that is in the
>process of detonating.   Only 'beam' lasers have the reaction time
>to target once a missile starts it's X-ray rod deployment.

OK. What about a missile with a conventional warhead, either direct
HE or a bucketful of shrapnel ?

>   To really upset the other guy,  put 2.6 meters of armor on this
>fighter to give it some resistance <grin> to the tactic of using the
>first wave of missiles to clear your fighters.   Of course this forces
>a redesign to account for the extra mass of that much armor,  and it
>won't be as cheap,  but it would be a surprise.

Hmmm, I'd have to do the numbers very carefully. I'm inclined to think
the armour would make the fighters so heavy as to be real sons of bitches
to acclerate.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:38:15 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Stop the bloody phone calls!

On Saturday, August 09, 1997 9:20 AM, Scott Ellsworth
[SMTP:Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu] wrote:
[snip]
> I am thinking of following in his footsteps.  At the very least, when, not
> if, they call, I am planning on demanding to talk to Courtney. Perhaps he
> can get rid of the bloody telemarketing.
> 
> I gave them a phone number so they could inform me of the status of my
> order, not so they could harass me both before and after each shipment to
> buy some crap.

I have the perfect solution for you.

> Sorry about the invective, but I like phone calls to be worthwhile, and
> these are not.

I can make sure they only ever call you when they really have to.  And
it's so simply.

Move to a foreign country.  Get a few Time Zones between you and them
and they can never call you.

Well, they never called me until I gave them a total incorrect Credit
card number on the Order form.  Like what was I thinking. 

BCD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:44:48 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Alaska and Independance, and Colonies

Harold
>>Besides, with that kind of logic, Alaska should have joined Canada
>>a long time ago.
>
>  Actually, I've heard some minor rumblings from Alaska regarding the
>possibility of going it alone.  Nothing serious, but I think it would
>make a butt kicking near future novel.
>

In many ways, alaska is still a colony. We are not equipped with any heavy
industry (of note), we produce many raw materials which, by various federal
laws, MUST be exported to the "lower 48" (the 48 contiguous states in the
temperate belt; continental but south of Canada). Most of the land in
alaska is owned by the federal government. Alaskans are not supposed to be
allowed to serve their first term in alaska except when in a mission
critical field that is understaffed. (Was told this by 4 different
recruiters, and have friends find out when enlisting in the lower 48 and
requesting 1st assignment to AK.)

Alaska has an active movement for separation; all the cities are easily
taken by military force. The pipeline is easily shut down (DS or HE in a
45-70; I can make either at home with a reloading kit).

One city has about 1/3 of the state population: Achorage (and environs).
There are more men than women (2:1 in Anch, 3:1 statewide, as conservative
estimates). Another 1/3 of the state lives in the other cities:
Juneau-DOuglass, Fairbanks, Sitka, Homer, Seward, Kenai-Soldatna,
Wasilla-Palmer-Houston-Big Lake. Anchorage's environs include seeral towns:
Eagle River, Peter's Creek, Chugiak, Eklutna, Girdwood, Indian, Bird Creek,
Rabbit Creek. Official census figures put the state well under a million
people. Unofficial figures put alaska right about 0.95 million. Nobody can
be certain, as alaska has villages that have disappeared for up to 3
years... due to bad weather, and no contact... no way in or out, save by
air, and constant bad weather cuts a few off for months at a time.
It was only in 1986 that the last of the village schools was forced to
teach enlgish rather than russian.
Many villages do not speak english; they use Inuit, inupiaq, Russian, or
one of 20 other native languages. Most villages are unreachable by land
during the spring and summer. Air and river are the basis all travel to
most places in alaska.
State police have the authority to declare legal death, sign death
certificates. They are also the magistrates in areas far from cities.
There are no Sherrifs Dept's, and no counties. There is one Borough (our
county equivalent) bigger than any single US state exept texas.

Independance is not viable, because we cannot afford to be without the
mandated trade. We cannot legally gear up sufficiently to have the
industrial and farming base needed for self sufficiency due to federal laws
restricting such. Without the bases covered locally, we could not stand on
our own.


Ob Traveller: Any place where you find lacks like alaska, you will also
find a totally different (and often strongly libertarian) approach to
government, law enforcement, and such. You can, however, keep such
movements small, and often marginalized, by careful taxation and limits
upon what can be locally produced.

You need not prevent local production of a product, but merely limit it so
that it cannot produce product any cheaper than import, which usually means
there will be sufficient demand to require import.

You often cannot control all of a colonial zone... all you need to control
is the basis for their defense and urban lifestyles, and you've got them
hooked.

William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:42:57 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: US Armed Forces... :-)

At 01:20 AM 8/08/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Oh, yes Traveller.  Well, to secure the building, the SCOUTS would
>investigate from a distance, interdict the area to minimize disturbance,
>and perform an in-depth analysis of the political and economic
>ramifications of admitting it to the Imperium.

... before realising that another scout team was already in the building,
finding ancient artifacts in the basement.


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:44:54 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
Subject: Bye....

Due to time committments, I must again drop off the list.

I've been fighting this impulse, but, since I have given up on T4, being
firmly convinced that it is not going to improve in quality, editorially or
artisiticly, let alone mechanically, I find myself unable to justify 2
hours+ per day reading TML digests.

I will still be available for private discussions, etc.

I am still willing to help on the CD project.

Rob, please re-launch the X-Boat list. Let me know when you do.

Peace unto all (even Ken B.).


William F. Hostman		
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:19:15 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: StutterWarp Universe

Stutterwarp ships can't orbit.  They need thrusters to provide realspace
velocity.  Not a major obstacle but I recall it was completely
overlooked in 2300.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:20:45 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

Victor J. Raymond wrote:
> 
> 
> I should note that the V-1 was actually a pulse-jet.  That is to say, it relied on an _interrupted_ flow of air to operate.  Should dig out my copy of German Secret Weapons from the Ballantine WWII series and read what was actually there.  It was certainly not a true ramjet.
> 
HA!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:39:08 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

[Hope this isn't too out of date]

Marc wrote,
> I have been talking with Loren Wiseman about he and I doing the E21
> milieu, and it would be a natural for us to do the Interstellar Wars
> after that.

Excellent!  I think they should be written in this order regardless of
relative popularity, since the extra detail added to E21 will help flesh
out IW and bypass compatibility problems that would be more likely to
arise if written the other way round.  Of course, if sales indicate, IW
could begin soon after, with slower support for E21 overlapping.

> I believe that a Milieu should be used to reflect on a specific type
> of play and emphasize that.

I agree.  This is one reason I'm so fond of Pocket Empires - it's the
book that most distinguishes M0 from M1100 or M1200.

> E21 would emphasize the Soalr System and the Grand Story of first
> contacts with the Vilani.

Can I second the recommendation of _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ by
Robert Heinlein as a source for ideas on Luna?

I'd like to recommend GURPS Terradyne as a solar-system-only RPG not yet
mentioned, but guess you might want to avoid looking at other RPGs in
case it's hard to disentangle their influence.  The political setup
isn't at all compatible (a single earth government, most of the solar
system controlled by a single megacorp), but the other material is
useful - other list members might want to take a look.

A few system features I'd like to see appearing during the 21st:
* Colonies on Luna (first) and Mars (second).
* Orbital habitats.
* Manned scientific bases on the gas giant moons - probably with
  conditions as comfortable as (say) the Mir station at the moment.
* Asteroid mining.

In RL I'd probably push some of these a bit later (or even omit), but we
want a good variety of terrans-only settings before those blasted Vilani
turn everything upside down...

> The Interstellar Wars would benefit from emphasizing space battles and
> ship design.

That makes sense.  Although this is of less interest to me personally, I
suspect this would be the bigger seller of the two.

The IW book should definitely have a section on the effect the start of
the 1st War in 2118 has on existing E21 characters (military and non-
military).  There is no time gap between the two milieux, so you don't
need an excuse like cold sleep (as in MT->TNE) - you can play right
through if you like.

I imagine there will be a period of military build up before 2118 in any
case, as governments would have realised something was bound to happen
eventually.  I'm not sure if this should be dealt with in E21 or IW -
but it won't require much space anyway.

Chris Griffen responded:
>Some considerations you might take into account:
>
>o Design the milieu to cover the entire period of the Interstellar Wars
>  (-2408 to -2219 3I, or 2112 to 2301 A.D.), with the technology
>  advancement bar listed alongside the timeline. That way, players and
>  refs can determine what level the Vilani and Solomani would have
>  achieved depending on what year they played in (e.g., -2398, Solomani
>  achieve TL 11 with advent of the J-2 drive; -2280, Solomani achieve
>  TL 12 with advent of the J-3 drive, etc.)

This is good.  Following recent debate on RoM TL, I'd say this would be
a good opportunity to give some serious thought to differing TLs in
different fields, since the Terrans' development seems to be quite
uneven (at least on the standard TL scheme - I support the idea that
this is a Vilani scale).
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:28:36 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Grav-focussed lasers

> would prefer if the technologies in each milieu were different enough to
> have characteristic ships, combat tavtics, designs, and campaign styles.


The style has already been done-a completely reworked 2300. Thats what I
though it was going to be when it came out anyway.  Why not find a way
to bring stutterwarp to the 3I? 

Aside from massive game alteration, what effect would stutterwarp in
Trav actually have to the game mechanics?  Existance of such a drive
would alter the 1 week travel time, but how much would this cause the
universe to change?

(No wonder the Terrans kicked some Vilani butt-they never did develop
jump drive.  Who needs Jdrive when you have SWarp;)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:35:36 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: StutterWarp Universe

> Finally, there is the 7.7 light year limit...if you don't discharge 

And huge, unrealistic hand wave it was.  There is a better way to limit
the Swarp drive than the mystical  "Its...radiation!"  An object quantum
tunneling will continuously be occupying the same space as free gases in
space.  There is not much in the vacuum, but it IS there.  The drive
gradually "includes" these items into the ship (as jump drive would
_also_ have to do.)  

Over a period of time a process called hydrogen embrittlment takes
place, weakening structure and maybe putting a good bit of free hydrogen
into the ships atmosphere.  You gotta stop and purge yourself, and check
your ships structure.  There may be other quantum mechanical ways of
dealing with this, but none I currently know of.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:09:24 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: IW Terra tech

>>>One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
>>>no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
>>>that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
>>>end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and
copies
>>>it from the Vilani.
	[snip]
>>  The last suggestion there would fit well with the suggestion from
>>the RoM dust-up that Solomani grav tech was -1 TL. It would also be
	[snip]
>	I'm heartily in favour of depriving the Terrans of gravitics in
>M:E21 (at least early on).  I think that the variety of extremely funky
>vehicles that would result, such as walkers, advanced rotary-wing aircraft,
>rocket-propelled ground-to-space vehicles and so forth, would really add
>flavour to the setting.
>
>	So Marc, please give the Terrans leads in genetics and medicine
>since canon requires it, but stiff'em in the gravitics department...

This all brings to mind a problem I've been meaning to bring up since I
started work on Beginnings, but other matters kept pushing aside: Why
do characters from TL 7+ Homeworlds get Grav Vehicle skill? If Grav
Vehicles don't come into use until TL 9 (and possibly late TL 9), why
are we allowing characters from a TL or even 2 below that automatically
gain it as a background skill? I have similar problems with the Computer
skill gained at TL 5+, but it's a bit easier to believe someone used to 
adding machines *might* be able to use HAL (and if you use the excuse
that computers become so much easier to use that anyone can use them,
then why only limit it to TL 5?)

Just ponderin'.... and I don't care iffn y'all call me a Yank, Cracker,
Redneck,
or what have ya... cuz I won't answer to none of 'em <g>.


**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 97 15:29 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Rolling Dice for CharGen

In-Reply-To: <970807012055_428682837@emout07.mail.aol.com>

> Ways To Roll Dice
>  Although there are many schools of thought on how dice should be
> rolled, the
> Traveller game system embraces only three for character generation:
> traditional rolls, the pre-rolled sequence, and the specific
> manipulated die
> roll.

okay

>  Pre-Rolled Sequence. Before the character generation procedure is started,
> the player rolls the dice quite a few times and records the results in order.
> The player should roll the half die at least 20 times, a single die at least
> 40 times, and two dice at least 50 times.
>  During character generation, the player selects the next die roll on the
> list and uses it. Because the player can make decisions, the player is
> allowed, within the context of the rules, to select what roll is next to be
> made and can search out options within the rules for the best use of that
> roll.

Does anybody actually do this? I say drop this and stick with the 
others - either you use the dice as rolled, or you don't.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 97 15:29 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Rolling Dice for CharGen

In-Reply-To: <970807012055_428682837@emout07.mail.aol.com>

> Ways To Roll Dice
>  Although there are many schools of thought on how dice should be rolled, the
> Traveller game system embraces only three for character generation:
> traditional rolls, the pre-rolled sequence, and the specific manipulated die
> roll.

okay

>  Pre-Rolled Sequence. Before the character generation procedure is started,
> the player rolls the dice quite a few times and records the results in order.
> The player should roll the half die at least 20 times, a single die at least
> 40 times, and two dice at least 50 times.
>  During character generation, the player selects the next die roll on the
> list and uses it. Because the player can make decisions, the player is
> allowed, within the context of the rules, to select what roll is next to be
> made and can search out options within the rules for the best use of that
> roll.

Does anybody actually do this? I say drop this and stick with the 
others - either you use the dice as rolled, or you don't.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 97 15:29 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

In-Reply-To: <33E98381.EA3@siscom.net>

Harold,

> >And this is where *my* beliefs diverge from those of Hollywood. (and
> >those of the American people, as you imply) Violence begets violence, it
> >does not solve it.
>  
>    Someone had to stop Hitler.  No one (or should I say 0.0001 percent
> of the population) believed that Hitler and the Nazis Party could be
> convinced in 1939 to withdraw their forces from Poland, free all
> political prisioners, and surrender control of Germany to proper
> authorities.  That's why WW II had to be fought.  It would have been
> *wonderful* if Hitler could have been taken out early on and his
> movement died before it could wreak havoc, but when you've got a madman
> with a large number of armed body guards, that isn't always an option.

Of course, if a certain country had helped in *1939*, rather than waiting 
for 2 years, WW2 could've been over a lot sooner.

> >It is my perception that more "messes" are made when households stock
> >their own firearms. Not having a whackload of statistics to back my
> >claim, I would just like to caution that there are certain risks that
> >one takes when one keeps a firearm. Is it *really* safer?
>  
>    When there is an effort in the community to train people in the
> proper use of firearms, and ownership of said firearms is tolerated,
> crime in general (not just violent crime) declines dramatically--without

And your evidence for that is...?

> any significant increase in accidental gun deaths (if anything these
> also decline).

But still more than if the guns weren't there in the first place.

> Note I said *trained*.  I would not want anyone to own a
> firearm unless they had received proper training on how to use and store
> it.  Ownership of weapons in the U.S. may be a right, but with that
> right comes a heavy *responsibility* to use them in a proper manner.

Sadly, most people in the US *don't* get proper training, and many *don't* 
see it as a responsibility.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:45:58 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: The culture

A few days ago there was some talk about Iain Banks Culture novels and 
some of quite cool ship names that the culture minds give themselves.
Theres actually a full list of them at 
http://lucid.cba.uiuc.edu/~rkeogh/banks/text/ships.html
including such gems as
dROU Frank Exchange Of Views (Psychopath Class) 
GCU Gray Area (aka meatfucker)
GSV Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The (Plate)
GCU A Series Of Unlikely Explanations
GCU Funny, It Worked Last Time...
and not forgetting
GSV No More Mr Nice Guy

Its nice to see a culture that doesn't name its ships things like 
enterprise or excelsior and it must be fun to watch your players faces 
when they come up against 4km long ships called Ultimate Ship The Second.
The page http://lucid.cba.uiuc.edu/~rkeogh/banks/ is the place to go for 
information on mr Banks and the culture.

 mark wilkin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1669
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, August 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1670



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bye....
Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level
X-Boat List 
Re: Disintegrators
Re: X-Boat List
Re: Disintegrators
Re: X-Boat List
Re: X-Boat List
Re: X-Boat List
Question:  Ht and Wt
Role-playing space combat
Re: Second careers
Re: M: -25 C
Re: Rolling Dice for CharGen
Re: IW Terra tech
Re: M: -25 C
Re: Blue Planet
Re: W.A.....
Social Stability
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:06:26 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Bye....

At 02:44 AM 8/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Due to time committments, I must again drop off the list.
>
>I've been fighting this impulse, but, since I have given up on T4, being
>firmly convinced that it is not going to improve in quality, editorially or
>artisiticly, let alone mechanically, I find myself unable to justify 2
>hours+ per day reading TML digests.
>
>I will still be available for private discussions, etc.
>
>I am still willing to help on the CD project.
>
>Rob, please re-launch the X-Boat list. Let me know when you do.

I too would like to see the X-Boat list come back, I also agree with many
of the points above.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:19:11 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level

IMO, Michael Barry's last post about relative TLs was simply 
outstanding.  The "standard" by which the 3I's IISS evaluates TL
must be Vilani in its basis.  This allows reassessment of Terran TL
by category (ala DGP's references) and accounts for any "anomalous"
developments here at home.

The slow rate of Vilani technological avdance as well as their
obsession with oppression through classification would have 
encouraged such a regimented system of tech classification.  

WE speak the TL code on the TML because we learned it from Traveller,
but how many of your non-TML friends talk like this?  basically none. 
Most folks talk of "High Tech" and "Low Tech" at best without any
greater gadation.

Even 2300 (Star Cruiser) evaluated tech only as "New Military (TL12),"
"Old Military/New Commercial(TL11.5)," and "Old Commercial(TL11)."

Gravitics could actually exist right now.  The alleged Biefeld-Brown
effect and actually documented and reasonably understood "Casimir 
force" have been known since the 30's.  

But what about those microjumps?  Sounds like something similar to
stutterwarp.  To the Vilani, SWarp would have seemed like J-Drive
with different visual effects and limitations.  

Maybe the Terrans were using SWarp when they encountered the Vilani.
As discussed in 2300, SWarp would require enormous computing 
resources, possibly quantum photonic computers, a technology the 
Terrans would have had but not the Vilani.  This technology would 
have been lost during the Long Night as the capability to produce the 
required support systems was lost.

And who really invented the Terran J-Drive.  Did we copy it from 
the Vilani?  If so, why, if we already had SWarp?

If anyone is interested if discussing SWarp in the Traveller universe
on a serious technical basis, let me know.  I'll have you believing
it really works as a microjump drive.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:02:20 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: X-Boat List 

I would like to find out how many people here would be interested in X-Boat
type list coming back into being. 

What I mean is a mailing list for those that have an interest in or playing
a Classic Traveller or MegaTraveller games. Such a list would be for
discussion the same ie Classic Traveller and MegaTraveller topics.

Until A Later Reality Then...


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:11:37 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

Hi Leonard!

> > in a body becominging fissionable and unstable and supercritical in
> > a nanosecond.

> Not really.
> 
> Consider, the effect is to turn the nucleus into free protons and
> neutrons. The neutrons have a half-life of 17 minutes, so their decay
> is going to be messy, but not a "bang". The protons are stable (ie you
> get hydrogen).
> 
> The energy of a bunch of hydrogen and free neutrons is *higher* than
> that of any remotely stable nucleus. So the breakup will *consume*
> energy, not liberate it!
> 
> You'll get some explosive effects from the (effective) high pressure of
> the hydrogen (being crammed together so tightly), and the decay of the
> neutrons will release a lot of beta radiation, which will wind up as
> heat.

I don't know if you are considering the binding energy of the 
affected nucleons.  That's the mass-energy the particles give up 
when they all come together as a team.  They are held together by the 
residual strong nuclear force (left over and mediated in the form of 
pi neutral mesons from the quark-quark gluon force inside each 
nucleon).  But protons repel each other...a lot.  Do the qq/r^2 
calculation for the electrostatic repulsion of two protons at one 
fermion distance and you'll find it to be large. 

What holds them together is the strong force.  Turn it off and the
protons leave....fast!

Present day fission reactors do not consume energy, they exploit nuclear 
resonances to induce instability in certain fissile materials and thus
break down nuclei into smaller mass components (fission fragments) with 
about 200Mev released per nuclear fission.  

Then they do the heat exchange thing with
water-steam-Pennsylvania-Ukraine 
and use the nasty evil glowing steam to generate electricity through the 
Rankine cycle.

Yes, the energy of free protons and neutrons IS higher than the same
nucleons confined in an atomic nucleus.  What is missing is the nuclear 
binding energy, which is related to the strong nuclear force.  When 
you disrupt this force, the Coulomb (electrostatic) repulsion between 
protons drives the nucleons to infinity as free particles, turning all
of
that binding energy you just destroyed into kietic energy of the
nucleons. 
That binding energy has to go somewhere due to the Second Law of 
Thermodynamics. Coincident to this, the electrons now have no bound 
states and also go away.  Bye bye matter.  This, in short, constitutes 
disintegration.

Strong force damper nodes somehow must act to interfere with the 
mesons transmitting the strong nuclear force. If you were dealing
with dampers that acted on the gluon level (quark-quark strong nuclear
atrraction...the only true nuclear attraction), the bang would be
bigger,
since quark quark binding energies are infinite, whatever that
means on a practical level.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:11:40 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Hi Sam.


I believe that my brother and I would both be interested in a
return of the X-Boat list as our principal effort is directed
tpoward the MegaTraveller/CT milieu.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:18:14 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

> That binding energy has to go somewhere due to the Second Law of
> Thermodynamics. Coincident to this, the electrons now have no bound

If I could write this again, I would say First Law of Thermodynamics.

Energy neither created nor destroyed-only changes form.

> -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:16:17 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Sam Thomas wrote:
> 
> I would like to find out how many people here would be interested in X-Boat
> type list coming back into being.
> 
> What I mean is a mailing list for those that have an interest in or playing
> a Classic Traveller or MegaTraveller games. Such a list would be for
> discussion the same ie Classic Traveller and MegaTraveller topics.
> 
> Until A Later Reality Then...
> 

Since I don't consider T4 mature enough to buy, I would be interested
and would subscribe to that kind of list.

However, it should be stated that T4 is the future of Traveller. If
this game is to survive then it must attract new purchasers. They won't
be buying MT or CT, they'll want the latest version. My concern is that
a wholesale exodus of people from the TML (and the implied withdrawal
of support for T4) will eventually hurt everyone, including us MT
and CT fans.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:09:33 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

At 02:16 PM 8/10/97 -0600, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>snip<
>
>Since I don't consider T4 mature enough to buy, I would be interested
>and would subscribe to that kind of list.
>
>However, it should be stated that T4 is the future of Traveller. If
>this game is to survive then it must attract new purchasers. They won't
>be buying MT or CT, they'll want the latest version. My concern is that
>a wholesale exodus of people from the TML (and the implied withdrawal
>of support for T4) will eventually hurt everyone, including us MT
>and CT fans.

Hmmm only time will tell if T4 is the future of Traveller. As for hurting
CT or MT well since nothing is going to be published for CT/MT by IG, any
ideas that such a list might foster can only help CT/MT, since IG will give
no support. 

I don't think that there will be a exodus from TML, but I have been wrong
many times before.<G> I am currently on the TML, GDW-Beta, and TNE-RCES
list, I think that a lot of the TMLer's will do similar things. On such a
list suggestions for CT/MT can be freely exchanged with out *wasting
bandwidth* for the non CT/MT persons.
 
From what I have seen here if TML has evolved from a bunch of buy anything
that IG *shovels out*, to lets wait and see what those that bought it think
about it. 

For myself I think that the lack of comment on FFS2 by those that have it,
does not bode well for it as a product. Where are the reviews, every other
IG T4 product to date has had reviews both pro and con after a week of the
release. It is not IMO the fault of the developers but due to IG's
inflexible time schedule for *Shovelling* things out the door, and the we
will fix it later attitude. From the few FFS2 comments it would seem to be
at least an errata feast. So I am tempted to wait for the second edition of
FFS2, I really don't like having pages of errata almost as big as the
original book.

Also I wonder if they ever fixed the 20kg+ M-16 designs that FFS1 had.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:26:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> However, it should be stated that T4 is the future of Traveller. If
> this game is to survive then it must attract new purchasers. They won't
> be buying MT or CT, they'll want the latest version. My concern is that
> a wholesale exodus of people from the TML (and the implied withdrawal
> of support for T4) will eventually hurt everyone, including us MT
> and CT fans.

Speaking as a survivor of the _last_ Great List Split, I can tell you two
things: one, there will be no 'wholesale exodus' of people from the TML,
and two, in time it will probably just dwindle down to nothing but
cross-posts from the main list, like the last time. 

rant/

	Personally, I'm getting tired of the constant whining of a few on
this list that "T4 is broken, no good, and I just wanna play CT and
pretend that nothing else has happened". Fine, we heard you, and if you
want to take your ball and bat and go away and play with yourselves, fine,
do it.

	There is of course room for improvement, large and small in T4,
and if something bothers you that much, just throw it out and use what you
want. I can assure you that neither Marc or IG has a secret corps of
Imperial Men in Black waiting to pounce on anyone Not Following The Rules.

	The vast majority of the contributors to this list seem to be able
to reconcile themselves to the inconsistencies and handwaving of the
current rules.

	The vast majority of contributors on this list will continue to
contribute useful, creative ideas. Why just look: in the last week, the
rough outline of an entire Mileu book has taken shape, with enough detail
that someone who wanted to could run such a campaign in fair detail right
now. Notice, that during the _entire_ M21 discussion, there has hardly
been one word about rules.

	This kind of material is the meat of what the TML can produce when
it wants to, and if you go off to play in your own little CT sandbox,
you'll miss a fair bit, if not the large majority of it. 

	But hey, it's your bat and your ball, so gowan, beat it, if you
don't want to share the playground!

/rant


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:33:42 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Question:  Ht and Wt

Hi Everyone,

First, I'd like to thank all of those who replied to my request for 
info on the Gvurrdon sector.  It was very nice to see all of that 
work done for me, and I can't tell you what a resource the TML is for 
a Traveller GM.  I would have been stuck with either a lot of work to 
do or running the scenarios I have planned as my players go 
extra-Imperial very differently that the way I want to do.

Even if you never post on this list, it's worth the subscription and 
review time for all of the game related benefits that can be obtained 
here.

Thanks.  Thanks very much from a busy Traveller GM.

Now for a new question.

I'd like to roll up Ht and Wt for my characters.  I've been using the 
TNE method for my T4 characters.  Does anybody know of some alternate 
charts for rolling this up besides what's in TNE?

I've looked at the T2300 stuff, and that looks interesting (for body 
mass), but it does not have ht and wt figures.

I'd like something put out by GDW or DGP, but home grown systems are 
very useful too.

Thank again,

Kenneth.

PS  If you haven't looked Joe Walsh and Co.'s Role Playing Space 
Combat System, then do so.

This thing is incredible.  They did a wonderful job on it, and after 
you print it out, it is as good and anything IG has released to date. 
 They even have it formatted well--and you  can get it on the net FOR 
FREE!	

Good job RPSC people. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:33:28 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Role-playing space combat

>One point about space combat, however. Since Traveller has always been
>one of the most inovative S.F. games I'm surprised at the lack of role
>playing rules for space combat.

I agree that Traveller has always been an innovative S.F. game. However, it
is not a terribly innovative role-playing game. Many of its rules, space
combat in particular, are based on wargaming and not role-playing. I'm not
saying that is bad, its just that space combat is innovative in things like
ship movement and turn mechanics and not player interaction.

>What are the chances of seeing a good set of first person ship operation
>and combat rules for T$ in the future?

I'd say the chances are high, especially since Joe Walsh, Eris Reddoch, and
a few other familiar names have already put together a pretty good set of
role-playing rules for Traveller ship combat called, simply, the
Role-Playing Space Combat System. I use it exclusively in my campaign.
Innovative features include active roles for non-weaponry characters like
engineers, pilots, and sensor operators, and tradeoffs for things like
sensors and lasers so simply turning on everything in the ship is not the
best combat tactic. Overall I recommend it highly; it's far superior to the
basic ship combat system in the T4 rules.
Try it yourself; it's available at http://users.qrc.com/~wildstar/rpsc/.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca
(Not an employee of the RPSCS, just a satisfied customer)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:03:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Second careers

In a message dated 97-08-08 03:08:36 EDT, you write:

<<  "reintroduction of Cutlasses for Marines". I
 never thought they went away, myself, just got subsumed into the "Large
 Blade" skill category. >>

Oops. That's the problem wit5h canon. Now there will be people who insist
that the scouts USED TO HAVE cutlasses once upon a tuime based on that
statement.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:20:08 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: M: -25 C

Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Steven Hudson,
>
> > Who else would qualify as Great Powers in 2050
> > rather than regional powers (seriously, Nigeria may end up as
> > the strongman of sub-Saharan Africa, but the U.S. would still
> > tell them where to stick it when it mattered to them).
>
>         nations will fail, the real powers in the 21 century
>         will be the mulinational cons.
>
>         e.g. compare the Bill Gates, or even Guiseppe Benidetto
>         to lets say France or Germany, they have probately more
>         power. Compare some Cons with Canada or an US-State
>         it will be similar.

I beg to differ.  The nation-state isn't dead. I think its more likely
that Western governments will become more corporate-styled in their
management.

People like Gates have more financial power perhaps, but that doesn't
translate perfectly to popular power.  Greed is a powerful motivator,
but I believe that its not the strongest, at least not always.  And
people don't always vote for what makes them the most money.

More on all this later.
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:35:48 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rolling Dice for CharGen

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> I have basically thrown out the old T4 "roll a bunch of different ways
> and
> pick the best" concept, and instituted the text below.
>
> Ways To Roll Dice
>         Although there are many schools of thought on how dice should
> be rolled, the
> Traveller game system embraces only three for character generation:
> traditional rolls, the pre-rolled sequence, and the specific
> manipulated die
> roll.
>         Traditional Rolls. As the player creates his or her character,
> the correct
> number of dice are rolled at the moment the result is required. That
> result
> is used, and it cannot be changed or re-rolled.

Only way to go.  Unless you want a specific character type.  Then give
the character the minimums and let the referee and the player work out
any possibility of higher than minimum stats.  Oh, you might as well
make up a system, I guess, based on the available range between the
minimum and a roll of 12, with it being weighed towards the low end.

For example:  I want a noble character.  He gets the minimum Soc of 10
(A).  Its possible that he could have a higher Soc.  So, make me roll
again on 2 dice.  If I roll 10-, the minimum stat sticks.  If I roll an
11 or a 12, take that roll.  How's that?

>         Pre-Rolled Sequence. Before the character generation procedure
> is started,
> the player rolls the dice quite a few times and records the results in
> order.
> The player should roll the half die at least 20 times, a single die at
> least
> 40 times, and two dice at least 50 times.

Huh?  Thats a bit extreme don't you think? 110 die rolls?  Anybody who's
this concerned just like rolling dice.  Send 'em to Vegas.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:47:57 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: IW Terra tech

Paul D. Owensby wrote 
> This all brings to mind a problem I've been meaning to bring up since I
> started work on Beginnings, but other matters kept pushing aside: Why
> do characters from TL 7+ Homeworlds get Grav Vehicle skill? If Grav
> Vehicles don't come into use until TL 9 (and possibly late TL 9), why
> are we allowing characters from a TL or even 2 below that automatically
> gain it as a background skill? 

Maybe TL 7 is the TL at which the average population is rich enough that
they can afford to import grav vehicles and they become ubiquitous.  I
usually prefer to give charecters from TL 7-9 their choice of Grav
Vehicle _or_ Ground Car.  If you have the time you can do WBH detailed
TL to find the transport TL's & use them rather than the general TL.

>I have similar problems with the Computer
> skill gained at TL 5+, but it's a bit easier to believe someone used to 
> adding machines *might* be able to use HAL (and if you use the excuse
> that computers become so much easier to use that anyone can use them,
> then why only limit it to TL 5?)

Same reasoning perhaps, at TL 5+ worlds are normally importing computers?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:22:24 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: M: -25 C

At 11:20 PM 10/08/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I beg to differ.  The nation-state isn't dead. I think its more likely
>that Western governments will become more corporate-styled in their
>management.

Hmmm.. maybe not.. running a nation like a corporation can only really
happen over a short amount of time, before the people of the nation get
angry over being the lack of social responsibilty and do something about it. 
Anyway, if you are running a nation like a corporation, how do you downsize
(or retrench, or whatever).

"I sorry Mr Bloggs, but Aust-Corp has decided that you are superfluous to
our needs."

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:49:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Blue Planet

>>Also, it does have one thing in common with Traveller.  Blair Reynolds
>>(who did much of the art in several DGP MT products, including Solomani
>>& Aslan did the interior art.

Wow talk about promotion. Anything with Blair Reynold illustrations will be
bought unseen by me.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:14:07 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: W.A.....

>The fact that Western Australia voted 75% to separate in a
>referendum on the subject held back in the 1930's occasionally gets
>mentioned up here.  Of course, the constitutional situation was and is
>quite different, but it's an interesting little precedent.

And the rest of the country still calls us secessionists!

Yeah, then the Privy Council in London (which up to 1983/4 was still the
highest court recognized by the Commonwealth), ruled that W.A. could only
secede with a through the passage of a secession bill through both houses
of parliament.

Since the House of Representatives is formed on population, and there was
no way that 90% of MHR's would vote for the passage of such a bill, it was
all quietly put aside.

Nowadays, secession is used mostly as a rally cry by local pols who are
performing badly in the polls (although that recent High Court decision is
bound to stir up the nest again).

Still, at least we could have fielded our own Test Team! (and Aussie Rules
would be a truly international sport).

ObTrav:  Joining the Imperium seems to be very much a one way proposition.
The Illelish Revolt probably made it quite clear that the Imperium would
not allow member worlds to leave.  On the other hand, the Solomani
Confederation (I'm speculating here) might very well have had a mechanism
in it's charter to allow member states to leave.  After all, the founders
had enough trouble getting everyone to agree on the charter in the first
place....their job would have been slightly less difficult if the member
states thought that they could back out at any time.  Of course, having the
mechanism doesn't mean that it was possible to leave...especially as the
Confederation government slowly accrued more powers in it's latter
years...likely as not, the Secretary General would ignore the charter and
send in the cruiser's (and the Doochten VeldtKommandoes....but that's
another thing entirely).


Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:33:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Social Stability

>Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL
>>Like our society, certain technologies had surged ahead of others,
>>creating social instability. If the Terrans had slowed down their tech
>>surge, they might have been able to come up with a solution to ruling the
>>vast former Vilani Empire.
>
>   Using this logic, the most technologically advanced societies today
>should be the most unstable.  We're talking about the U.S., Japan, and
>select countries in Western Europe (i.e. Switzerland).  Ooops!  All
>those countries are by far the most *stable*.

Hmm,
  This might be a bit stale, but I think there are two views
here, each accurate within their context. The latter points
out that the highly developed economies of the West are in
a situation of long-term political stability. 

  The former is emphasizing various current or historical
economic dynamics. Certainly the UK, US, and Japan have 
all been significantly destabilized by economic changes
in the past. 

  The near future can't be ascertained, but we know that
the last generation has seen large re-allocations of wealth
and income with new technologies, and structural changes
affecting most of the work-force. Blue collar jobs have
given way somewhat to the new or expanded service sectors,
and combined with other factors has resulted in a strong 
downturn in the living standard of a single-income family.

  Mind you, CPI increases and lower standards of living are
nonsense if you like desktop computing. Many people on the
list have equipment that would've been impossible or hugely
expensive even five years ago. But is the so-called information
revolution not potentially destabilizing in itself?

  M:0 would seem to resemble M: -2500 in this respect, as just
with the current world everyone (or everyone who matters) can
be in near-instant communications with anyone else ("). The
3I of 1100 has the same political command structures as M:0,
but far more lower echelon centers that can go it alone; witness
the Rebellion, and the Regency.

        Gotta run,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:40:07 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

Anders writes:

> I've been playing with short range lasers (about 10 000 km combat ranges)
> with good effects. You could really build 50 kg missiles that work on those
> ranges, even chemical (remember that CT canon has missiles massing 50 kg).

I must admit that my choice of 50 kg as a nice mass for a missile 
wasn't exactly coincidental...

Reducing laser ranges slightly sounds like a good experiment.

> No need for gravfocussing either and space battles where dodging behind
> planets, slingshotting with gravity, aerobraking etc really worked. The
> problem was that Bruce calculated realistic detection ranges for sensors
> and shot this scenario to hell (at least if you want sensor ranges on par
> with shooting ranges).

I'm more convinced with the realism of detection ranges than I am
with the realism of laser ranges and power.  A typical lab laser
(today) would produce a 1 ns pulse at 30 MW = 0.03 J; multiply that
by maybe a thousand for the size of a starship laser, and you get
30J per pulse, not truly good.

> Now I'm working on a rewrite of my spacecombat system with longer ranges
> (100 000 km typical shooting ranges) and using much shorter wavelength
> light (x-ray etc) to still avoid those pesky gravfocussing abominations.
> OK, you'll need one set of lasers for atmospheric work as the air absorbs
> the x-rays too much but that I consider good as well (no PCs will a
> civilian merchant terrorizing some government with their good-of-thunder
> lasers in atmosphere).

X-lasers are sort of hard to power... do you have a little fusion 
chamber powering each one?  The famous SDI X-lasers were powered by 
atomic (fusion? fission?) bombs, which suggests they're not easy to 
pump!

As for atmosphere absorbing X-rays... depends on the atmosphere, 
doesn't it? 8-)

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1670
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, August 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1671



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
Re: Looking for Gvurrdon Sector Info
Re: [T97#1665] Gvurrdon Sector
Re: Cities In Flight
Re: Cities in Flight
Re: [T97#1632] Fencing Styles
Re: Dres Blades as weapons
Re: WSV suit question
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
Re: Disintegrators
Re: X-Boat List
Warp Drive
re: new list/old list
Traveller-digest V1997 #1667 -Reply
Re: X-Boat List 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:04:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

In mail you write:

> Peter Newman wrote:
>
>> On the other hand you may be able to detect their _mass_ right away
>> based on the gravitational effect.  Maybe as a further refinement ships
>> with can detect ships instantly at long distances only if they have the
>> right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
>> that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
>> require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
>> soley on the targets mass.
>
> On the other other hand, according to special relativity gravity
> propagates at the speed of light.

But the ship's gravity has *always* been radiating out from it. So a
ship jumping into system *can* detect it immediately (if it can detect
it at all). It's no different than being able to see the star
immediately. You are observing photons that left the star some time
ago. 

> However, until we are able to detect gravity waves from a nearby
> supernova or somesuch, the speed of gravity hasn't been actually
> measured...

But detecting *mass* is *not* the same as detecting gravity waves. In
the first case you are detecting a steady field. In the second, you
are detecting the way the field *varies*. Much like the difference
between detecting a charge or a magnetic field, and detecting
electromagnetic radiation. You can't even use the same sort of sensors!

Geologists use mass detectors all the time. But gravity wave sensors
are quite different and far cruder.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:13:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Looking for Gvurrdon Sector Info

In mail you write:

> I'm looking for Gvurrdon Sector info.  My players don't know it yet, 
> but they are about to go trans-Imperial.
>
> Does anybody know of a Gvurrdon map produced by DGP in a mag or other 
> product?

Alien Module 3 Vargr, has a player's map of the sector, a referree's
map and a full world listing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:12:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#1665] Gvurrdon Sector

In mail you write:

> I don't know whether the star map matches, but in _GDW_'s _Alien_
> _Module_3:_Vargr_, there was complete CT-style information (No
> PBG or stellar) for Gvurrdon sector, in the back, as part of the
> information included for the adventure "Gvurrdon's Story".

It *does* have stellar info, as well as PBG. 

Typical entry:

0104 C8A8100-8  Z  Lo Nin              501Zh M4 V M4 D

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:56:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cities In Flight

In mail you write:

> I stumbled across the James Blish novel, "Cities In Flight," in a bookstore
> the other day. For those of you who have already read it, is this book
> applicable for background info for Trav, i.e. how things work etc. If so,
> I'll move it up on my "to read" list.

Actually, "Cities in Flight" is an omnibus edition of *four* novels.
But it's not Traveller. The drive used propels you FTL thru real space.
And it also works better with higher mass ships. So the title is
*real*. They are *literally* flying cities around. In fact, at one
point, they are flying a *planet*.

They also have FTL radio. Which is another thing that prevents the
background from being Traveller.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:20:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cities in Flight

In mail you write:

>         Read it.  It`s the source of such Traveller ideas as TDK
> explosives, black/white globes and such.  While it isn`t
> Travelleresque I found it very enjoyable.

"Cities in Flight" is the source for TDK and anagathics. Jerry
Pournelle's CoDominium/Empire universe is the source of black globes
(Langston Field) and white globes (Motie modified Langston Field). E.C.
Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series is the source of slow drug, fast
drug, and high, middle and low passages, as well as the low passage
lottery. 

Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.

You could do *far* worse than dig up such of Norton's SF as you can
locate and use it for ideas. It fits the Traveller universe quite well,
except that in her stories hyperdrive travel of any distance is
performed in one "jump", and it's possible to exit jump in the middle.
Duration seems to vary with distance. But that's a minor consideration
given the richness of her worlds.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:53:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#1632] Fencing Styles

In mail you write:

> I seem to recall reading one story (H. Beam Piper paratime
> story?) where the rules were somewhat more flexible - in one
> scene, the terms were "twenty rounds, twenty meters, fire at will
> after the signal".  Our Hero needed one shot to win.  I would
> suggest that you can modify rules, customs, protocols, et cetera
> to suit the needs of your campaign.

For that matter, in E.E. Smith's Lensman books, we get to see a duel in
Boskonian society (the bad guys). In D&D terms this is a *very* "lawful
evil" culture. In traveller terms, it's high law level, but not nice.

The big difference in their rules is the rather than the *challenger*
getting to pick weapons, etc, the higher ranking person does! Status is
everything...

That could be a rude shock for a player on some world out in the
boonies. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:06:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dres Blades as weapons

In mail you write:

> As for efficacy of a dull blade, back in high school, my frend and  NJROTC
> Cadet CO nearly lost an ear due to an accident with a MODERN dress sworn,
> US Navy Officer standard issue pattern... He went from "Carry" (back of
> blade resting upon shoulder) to "reverse carry" (an exhibition manoever
> where the blade front is lightly held against the back of the shoulder),
> overextending, and lopping his ear off... save for about 5mm at the front
> of the ear. 25 stitches later, he's now a US Coast guard officer, with an
> interesting (but hard to notice) scar. The blade was as sharp as the BACK
> edge of a table knife, ie, 1mm wide, rounded, and smooth.

Another oft overlooked detail is that an "edge" with a quite wide
"angle" can still be very sharp and if "drawn" across something can cut
quite well. I have a nice scar on two finger from being careless while
cleaning a lapping machine. I got cut againt the *right angle* at the
edge of one of the plates. This is a cylindrical chunk of steel about
four feet in diameter and several inches thick.

Who'd have thought a 90 degree edge could cut? :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:16:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: WSV suit question

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
>
>> I have a questionon the visual suits that a character can have with him.
>> 
>> Let's talk about the WSV suit which have most of the visual improovement
>> such device can have.
>> 
>> So WSV is a passive IR to UV viewer suite
>> 
>> I both UV and IR uses false color to make the image visible to wearer but I
>> was wondering what the guy can see in different wavelength during
>> day/night/obscurity
>
> I expect that _all_ the various wavelengths will be false colored to modes
> similar to what we see in daylight, since that's where we resolve objects
> best, so no 'negative' IR images, no 'green' light intensifiers (which
> will probably be wide spectrum by that time, anyway).

The "negative" appearance black&white IR sensor displays is just due to
our prejudices about what things should look like. Color IR looks just
as "different" (for example, vegetation winds up *red*).

If you use black & white IR, the lighter the color, the hotter the
object is. If you use color IR, red is cool, blue is hot, green is in
the middle.

> As for seeing through walls with IR, that would likely be possible,
> depending on the wlls thickness. Certainly, through a thin wall, with some
> observation time, you could determine who was in there.

If you want to see through walls that are much like current house and
building walls, use millimeter band radar. This is already being tested
both for airport security and for covert surveilance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:10:29 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:

> One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
> no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
> that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
> end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and copies
> it from the Vilani. This makes for lots of fun things - aircraft and helicopters
> rather than grav vehicles, large spacecraft are incapable of landing on planets
> and you need to use shuttles, ground-to-orbit is very expensive, etc.

I must admit, I like the idea.  (Based on the couple of episodes of 
Space: Above and Beyond I saw, the feel might well be similar: clunky 
Terran tech and enemy grav tanks, energy weapons etc.)

However... the point is made somewhere canonical (AM6 or MT I'd 
guess) that the reason Terrans took so long to develop fusion power 
is that they persisted in using EM fields to contain the reaction.  
Once they developed gravitic containment, fusion power became viable.
In other words, something very similar to contragrav is available in 
the E2100 era.

Of course, the technology would take a while to supplant existing 
military gear; this could be a factor creating a state of 
over-armament and military tension as major powers requip with new 
fusion/grav powered vehicles and sell their old equipment to client 
states.

(*Can* one build reasonable grav tanks without Fusion+?  I'd think
TL 9 fusion plants would be too large...)

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:45:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)

In mail you write:

>
>         While some people bash out future histories, I seem to obsess about
> gear.  Inspired by the thread on ME21, I decided to design a TL-9 HOTLHL
> space-plane (I used FF&S1 since I only had an early playtest draft of
> =46F&S2).  Stats follow.  I also have a question: nowhere can I figure out
> what velocity is required to attain, say, high Earth Orbit.  I know that
> escape velocity for Earth is somewhat over 11 km/sec, but if I understand
> correctly you wouldn't need to reach that velocity to reach orbit.

From part 4 of the sci.space FAQ:

	For circular Keplerian orbits where:
	    Vc	 = velocity of a circular orbit
	    Vesc = escape velocity
	    M	 = Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
	    G	 = Gravitational constant (defined below)
	    u	 = G * M (can be measured much more accurately than G or M)
	    K	 = -G * M / 2 / a
	    r	 = radius of orbit (measured from center of mass of system)
	    V	 = orbital velocity
	    P	 = orbital period
	    a	 = semimajor axis of orbit

	    Vc	 = sqrt(M * G / r)
	    Vesc = sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
	    V^2  = u/a
	    P	 = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
	    K	 = 1/2 V**2 - G * M / r (conservation of energy)

	    The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
	       of a circular orbit with the same semi-major axis.

	Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
	circular orbit:

	    delta V = 2 sqrt(GM/r) sin (phi/2)

	Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit (ignores rotational
	velocity, which reduces the energy a bit).

	    GMm (1/Re - 1/2Rcirc)
	    Re = radius of the earth
	    Rcirc = radius of the circular orbit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:54:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

In mail you write:

> Hi Leonard!
>
>> > in a body becominging fissionable and unstable and supercritical in
>> > a nanosecond.
>
>> Not really.
>> 
>> Consider, the effect is to turn the nucleus into free protons and
>> neutrons. The neutrons have a half-life of 17 minutes, so their decay
>> is going to be messy, but not a "bang". The protons are stable (ie you
>> get hydrogen).
>> 
>> The energy of a bunch of hydrogen and free neutrons is *higher* than
>> that of any remotely stable nucleus. So the breakup will *consume*
>> energy, not liberate it!
>> 
>> You'll get some explosive effects from the (effective) high pressure of
>> the hydrogen (being crammed together so tightly), and the decay of the
>> neutrons will release a lot of beta radiation, which will wind up as
>> heat.
>
> I don't know if you are considering the binding energy of the 
> affected nucleons.

I *am*. For any nucleus lighter than Fe56, the binding energy curve is
such that fissioning the nucleus *uses* energy, rather than produces
it. That's why you can get energy by *fusing* them. The new combination
has *less* binding energy than the old one.

Nuclei heavier than Fe56 will produce energy when fissioned. And Fe56
is the most stable configuration. Again, the new configuration has less
binding energy than the old one.

Remember, binding energy shows up as "missing mass". So by breaking a
nucleus down into protons and neutrons, you'll *only* produce energy if
the mass of that many free protons and neutrons exceeds the mass of the
nucleus you started with. And for anything up to Fe56 that's *not* true.

I also suspect that it may not be true of at least some heavier nuclei.
That is, breaking them up into smaller nuclei may release energy, but
not breaking them all the way down into individual nucleons. I don't
have a CRC handbook handy, so I can't check a table of isotopes.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:22:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

>I would like to find out how many people here would be interested in X-Boat
>type list coming back into being.
>
>What I mean is a mailing list for those that have an interest in or playing
>a Classic Traveller or MegaTraveller games. Such a list would be for
>discussion the same ie Classic Traveller and MegaTraveller topics.
>
>Until A Later Reality Then...

As I play in CT/MT era and find T4 buggy albeit improving I'll join such a
list as well.
As for the statement that Traveller will die if T4 fails seems a bit
strange. I've been playing Traveller more or less weekly for lots of years
now without ever using TNE/T4 material. Shure - T4 as a commercial thing
will die but that's hardly a problem for us. I've got CT/MT material to use
that will keep me going way off into the next millenium not to mention the
ability to write my own stuff as well.

It's a bit like saying that Christianity will die unless someone comes out
with some new chapters for the bible (now that's an idea...).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:23:23 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Warp Drive

I haven't seen this reported here on TML, so:

Two researchers at Tufts University, Medford, Mass., have estimated 
the energy required to sustain a warp drive like the one proposed by 
Alcubierre.  It's about 10 billion times the mass-energy of the 
visible mass of the universe...

The assumptions made are strictly correct only in non-warped space, 
but the indications aren't hopeful for FTL-lovers.  Alcubierre is 
quoted as saying "I always thought the amount of energy needed would 
be ridiculous.  I did the research really as a proof of concept."

Report: New Scientist, 26 July 1997, p6
Research: Classical and Quantum Gravity, 14 (1997) 1743


Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:31:19 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: new list/old list

Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote:

>I don't think that there will be a exodus from TML, but I have been wrong
>many times before.<G> I am currently on the TML, GDW-Beta, and TNE-RCES
>list,

You mean you're *not* on TravLang???  ;-)


> I think that a lot of the TMLer's will do similar things. On such a
>list suggestions for CT/MT can be freely exchanged with out *wasting
>bandwidth* for the non CT/MT persons.


The snag I see with this is that suggestions for CT/MT are hugely useful
for T4 supporters and I'd have thought I fair bit is useful from T4 for the
'old guard'.  I would hate to have to subscribe to two lists, essentially
discussing the same things.  I foresee a whole lot of cross posting and
thus more *wasting* of bandwidth for those on both lists.

I'm sure there will be folk who feel the need to subscribe to both if
there's another split.  Someone, please make this spectre go away.

<runs off and buries head in the sand>


tc
"Alright, so I'm Mister
Completely-unable-to-bear-the-prospect-of-a-list-split-or-a-heated-and-endl
ess-discussion-about-a-list-split."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:33:53 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1997 #1667 -Reply

Rules:   Update 8/11/97  -  07:00 EDT         

Please note that some of the items are now gone.  If you are still bidding
on other items, we should wait for there outcome before determining
postage costs.  If you have no other items, please contact me so I can
determine postage (at this point US Priority Mail for 48 states).

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) going x2

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net     

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        Buyout - $40.00 - gone
        
GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $38.00 cgriffen@cisco.com (8/7) going x2
        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com 
        $34.00 pnewman@alaska.net
                
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/8)
        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com 
        
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu gone

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net gone

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $ 8.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7) going x2
        $ 6.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
        $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net 
        
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        
TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $17.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/9)
        $16.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com gone

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7) going x2
        $10.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
        

Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7) going x2
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 4.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/10)
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net 

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 7.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz (8/8)
        $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $16.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/11)
        $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com 
        $13.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
        $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
        $11.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/11)
        $10.00 egc@northnet.org 
        $ 9.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
                
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net gone

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $15.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/11)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:03:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List 

I wouldn't want another list:
* Too many Crossposts
* Adventureideas easily transferable between milieux are lost to some 
if only posted to one list.

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1671
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, August 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1672



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: X-Boat List
Imperium Games and Product Quality
T4 Encounter Table Generator
RE: X-Boat List 
Re: Disintigrators
Re: X-Boat List
Re: X-boat list
Re: X-Boat List 
Re: X-Boat List
Re: Question:  Ht and Wt
Xboat list
Re: X-Boat List
Re : Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: T4 Encounter Table Generator
Re: 21st century Terra
Re: Anti-Missile Fighter
Law Level
2nd Imperium TL
Re: 21st Century Terran TL
Re: Question:  Ht and Wt
Re : Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: Cities in Flight
Re: Vilani First Contact

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:05:39 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Erwin Fritz writes: 

>However, it should be stated that T4 is the future of Traveller. If
>this game is to survive then it must attract new purchasers. They won't
>be buying MT or CT, they'll want the latest version. My concern is that
>a wholesale exodus of people from the TML (and the implied withdrawal
>of support for T4) will eventually hurt everyone, including us MT
>and CT fans.

   What makes you think that everyone here supports Marc Miller's
Traveller (at least as a replacement for Traveller)?  It seems to me
that there are a significant number of people here who are continuing to
use CT, MT, and TNE and have no intention of buying more than a couple
(if that many) MMT products.  They aren't going anywhere, or at least I
hope not.

Sam Thomas writes:

>For myself I think that the lack of comment on FFS2 by those that have it,
>does not bode well for it as a product. Where are the reviews, every other
>IG T4 product to date has had reviews both pro and con after a week of the
>release. 

   As was pointed out to me by someone else off list, the lack of
comment is probably due to the UPS strike here in the US (hard to
comment on something you don't possess), GENCON, and the summer vacation
season (hard to comment when you aren't here to comment).  Now if it
starts getting on toward the end of the month and we don't start seeing
some critical evaluations, *then* I would start wonder.

>It is not IMO the fault of the developers but due to IG's
>inflexible time schedule for *Shovelling* things out the door, and the 'we
>will fix it later' attitude.

   FF&S 2 marks an important milestone for MMT.  This, IMHO, is a book
that simply must be good quality for the product line to be taken
seriously.  I look forward to some reviews in the near future.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:03:23 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Imperium Games and Product Quality

        I'm not planning on defecting to another list, but I do have some
serious issues with Imperium Games and the way they handle their release
schedule. I couldn't participate in a lot of the discussions regarding FF&S2
(yes, my name is in the book; I tried to head that off, but to no avail),
but I did read almost all of them, and I personally know that Dave and Guy
did a commendable job on a difficult product. They, however, were simply not
given enough time to properly debug the thing. This is where the problem
lies, IMHO; IG is so committed to their release schedule, they are willing
to shove inferior product out the door to meet it. They also decided to
shove ALL of the tables into a confusing and errata-ridden section in the
back of the book rather than go the extra expense and time of properly
formatting each relevant table into the text in the proper location or, as
had been discussed,   at a tables section at the end of each chapter.
        I don't think Courtney Solomon is a gamer, if I remember correctly,
and I would suspect not many of the people involved in the business end of
IG are. This is where the problem lies. They do not realise that we want
QUALITY, USEFUL books, that come out RIGHT rather than ON TIME. Delays are
not that uncommon in the RPG business; other companies don't announce all
their planned releases for the year, announcing by quarter instead, and are
not afraid to delay a book if it needs additional work. Yes, businesses have
to make money, but let's face it, RPG's are not a big money business. There
is, in my opinion, no excuse for the kind of shoddiness that went into
FF&S2, and I want all to know that the authors were not responsible.
I also want IG to take close note of the people here who are so frustrated
with the quality of IG's products that they have announced their intention
to leave TML. For every customer like that, there are 10 you don't hear from
that simply quit buying. And there are a lot of people not on this list who
may be feeling the same. Short-term, Traveller may be doing well. Long-term
is the issue here. 

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:29:22 -0400
From: "Allen L. Hubbard" <us004073@mindspring.com>
Subject: T4 Encounter Table Generator

I've written an Encounter Table Generator for T4 in MS VB 4.0.  It's =
about 73 KB in size.  You enter the system and UPP, and select the =
terrain type for which you want an Encounter Table.  It prints it out in =
landscape format.  Run under Windows 95.  If anyone is interested, just =
e-mail me off-line, and I'll send a copy out to you.  I could be =
persuaded to make some modifications to it, if it is so desired, but my =
time for this kind of thing is limited.  Been lurking for quite a while, =
and thought I'd make my own humble contribution to this interesting =
list.

Al Hubbard
Grand Blanc, MI

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:18:51 -0400
From: "Allen L. Hubbard" <us004073@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: X-Boat List 

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCA630.EF167A40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



- -----Original Message-----
From:	Sam Thomas [SMTP:sinbad@dfw.net]
Sent:	Sunday, August 10, 1997 3:02 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	X-Boat List 

I would like to find out how many people here would be interested in X-Boat
type list coming back into being. 

What I mean is a mailing list for those that have an interest in or playing
a Classic Traveller or MegaTraveller games.
[Allen L. Hubbard]  
I'd be interested.  I'm primarily interested in Classic Traveller.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:48:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Disintigrators

This is one way I have developed disintigrators for my game.

Please bear in mind that I am not a physicist, this is just some stuff I 
came up with while in college.  You guys in the know can help me out with 
this little "theory" :)

Ok, heres the deal.
I was thinking about antimater while studying one day. This was in Chemestry 
where we were discussing ionizations.  I remember something about stripping 
away electrons.  I soon thought about the anti-electron, or positron.  Now 
according to what little college chem and physics I had I was thinking that 
if most matter is joined togeteher through these electon bonds, what would 
happen to that matter if shot with a steady stream of positrons.   Would the 
electrons and positrons anihilate each other, thereby destroying the 
electron bonds and causing the ions or pure nuclei to fly appart?  Would 
this positronic beam then be a true disintigrator?

This sounds too simple, and I know physics isn't :)

Ok physicist guys, is there some other law(s) I'm ignoring here?  Or are the 
effects of a positronic beam that devistating?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:27:32 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

At 03:26 PM 8/10/97 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:

>> However, it should be stated that T4 is the future of Traveller. If
>> this game is to survive then it must attract new purchasers. They won't
>> be buying MT or CT, they'll want the latest version. My concern is that
>> a wholesale exodus of people from the TML (and the implied withdrawal
>> of support for T4) will eventually hurt everyone, including us MT
>> and CT fans.
>
>Speaking as a survivor of the _last_ Great List Split, I can tell you two
>things: one, there will be no 'wholesale exodus' of people from the TML,
>and two, in time it will probably just dwindle down to nothing but
>cross-posts from the main list, like the last time. 

While I don't have a technical problem reinstating X-Boat, I have to agree
with Bruce.  While it would give the CT/MT a place to call their own, after
a bit its double the traffic on both lists.  More than 80% of the
readership will be on both lists.  That is if each list contains 500 names,
only 100 in each list will be unique, the other 400 will be on both lists.  

There was a time where I was reading the same message three times, once on
TML, once on Xboat and once on GDW-Beta.  All the cross-posts are a heavy
burden on our network both in CPU time to process and diskspace to archive
and spool the duplicate mail.

Unfortunatly, Email lists are not Usenet news.  Cross posts actually
manifest themselves in real space consumption, where as netnews, Cross
posts are Symbolic Links (under most news systems) and not so bad on
resources, even with a good news reader, you may only have to see a message
once.  Even with the best mail reader, you get them.

The last time, TNE was radically different from CT/MT.  Only parts of the
history remained intact.  T4 is a lot closer to the original CT but as Marc
has said many times, its been updated.  I just don't see a need for
seperate lists.  

I would encourage subject tags as a first step, then people could filter
out the unwanted messages.  If a message is T4 specific, then have the
subject start out T4:.  If it is CT specific, CT: or TNE specific: TNE:

Other generic messages that fit most everything would pass through the
filters and you get the content you want.  Just that everyone has to make a
concerted effort to use the tags.  

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:40:13 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: X-boat list

I'm against a split.

As some of you may know, I was a subscriber to the old X-boat list 
but not to TML, simply because I had no active interest in TNE.  By 
the time I left, X-boat had more or less wound up in expectation of 
T4 being a worthy sequel to CT and MT.

As long as TML tolerates/encourages posts concerning other flavours 
of Traveller -- like the occasional TNE design we see -- then IMO a 
new Xboat would mean duplication of material for those who read both
and missing some great ideas for those who don't.

The perfect Traveller system will always be T++

Nick


Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:57:43 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List 

At 02:03 PM 8/11/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>I wouldn't want another list:
>* Too many Crossposts
>* Adventureideas easily transferable between milieux are lost to some 
>if only posted to one list.

Well right now there are ideas posted to the TNE-RCES that are not cross
posted, and some discussions on the GDW-Beta list that do not make it the TML.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:02:09 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

At 08:05 AM 8/11/97 -0400, hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale) wrote:
>Sam Thomas writes:
>
>>For myself I think that the lack of comment on FFS2 by those that have it,
>>does not bode well for it as a product. Where are the reviews, every other
>>IG T4 product to date has had reviews both pro and con after a week of the
>>release. 
>
>   As was pointed out to me by someone else off list, the lack of
>comment is probably due to the UPS strike here in the US (hard to
>comment on something you don't possess), GENCON, and the summer vacation
>season (hard to comment when you aren't here to comment).  Now if it
>starts getting on toward the end of the month and we don't start seeing
>some critical evaluations, *then* I would start wonder.

Well at least here at my end FFS2 available, and several people have
replied that they have gotten their copy via the mail/post. My LGS does not
seem to be having much of a problem getting things past the UPS strike. But
then I am in a major metro area which may have something to do with it.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:14:56 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Question:  Ht and Wt

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> I'd like to roll up Ht and Wt for my characters.  I've been using the
> TNE method for my T4 characters.  Does anybody know of some alternate
> charts for rolling this up besides what's in TNE?

Since I don't have TNE, I'm curious. How does this work in those
rules?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:34:31 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Xboat list

In an earlier posting I wrote:

>However, it should be stated that T4 is the future of Traveller. If
>this game is to survive then it must attract new purchasers. They won't
>be buying MT or CT, they'll want the latest version. My concern is that
>a wholesale exodus of people from the TML (and the implied withdrawal
>of support for T4) will eventually hurt everyone, including us MT
>and CT fans.

This statement has, I think, been misinterpreted. Let me try again.

Where I live, Calgary, I have seven MT players. We originally started
with CT rules and moved to MT. I'm skipping TNE and plan to move to
T4 once I consider it mature enough (based on what people on the TML
say) to purchase.

My players are unable to purchase their own CT/MT stuff easily. That
is, they'd have to do serious hunting to find the stuff because it's
out of print. To solve this problem, I've taken the liberty of putting
the MT Player Manual, Referee Manual and Library online. I provide them
with copies (hopefully I'm not violating any copyright here). This
provides me with a side benefit; I can edit these versions to use my
home-grown rules and to introduce library entries I feel are important.
If these manuals were available in stores, I'd get the players to buy
them there.

This state of affairs is fine for me because I already have a full
group of players (my brain can't handle more than about that number).

However, consider a group of people who want to start playing Traveller
for the first time. The only material they can get easily is T4 stuff.
New players and referees are, because of availability, almost forced
to use T4 stuff. As the number of Traveller players grows (which it
hopefully will) the number of people using T4 stuff will become 
greater than the number of people using CT/MT/TNE stuff.

To assure the survival of the game, we must support T4 or convince
Marc to release the old versions again. People will use what they find
in gaming stores.

I think Traveller is the greatest game ever invented. I want to see
it thrive. When T4 is mature enough, I intend to make the switch.

How's that for muddying the waters even further?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:47:22 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Rob Miracle wrote:
> 
> I would encourage subject tags as a first step, then people could filter
> out the unwanted messages.  If a message is T4 specific, then have the
> subject start out T4:.  If it is CT specific, CT: or TNE specific: TNE:
> 

Now this is an excellent idea. I second the motion!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:14:26 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re : Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

Hi All,

Nick Munn wrote -

> X-lasers are sort of hard to power... do you have a little fusion =
> chamber powering each one?  The famous SDI X-lasers were powered by =
> atomic (fusion? fission?) bombs, which suggests they're not easy to =
> pump!

You can generate low end X-ray lasers using cyclotron radiation using the=
 =

"Free Electron Laser", which I believe were investigated as part of SDI.

> As for atmosphere absorbing X-rays... depends on the atmosphere, =

> doesn't it? 8-)

Certainly does !

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:54:07 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: T4 Encounter Table Generator

At 08:29 11/08/97 -0400, Allen L. Hubbard wrote:
>I've written an Encounter Table Generator for T4 in MS VB 4.0.  It's about
73 KB in size.  You enter the system and UPP, and select the terrain type
for which you want an Encounter Table.  It prints it out in landscape
format.  Run under Windows 95.  If anyone is interested, just e-mail me
off-line, and I'll send a copy out to you.  I could be persuaded to make
some modifications to it, if it is so desired, but my time for this kind of
thing is limited.  Been lurking for quite a while, and thought I'd make my
own humble contribution to this interesting list.
>
	Yes, please send this to me, many thanks!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:59:39 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: 21st century Terra

Moin Harold Hale,

>    According to Traveller, about 2010.  According to reality, perhaps
> some 5-15 years later.  Like room temperature superconductors,
> economical picture phones, and the Falco comeback CD/tour, seemingly
> just around the corner...

	The small Wendelstein (15m diameter) in Garchingen actualy
	produces more energy then it consumes. We are currently building
	the large Wendelstein (35m diameter) in Greifswald, and this
	beast will certainly have turbines, and hopefully finished 2002.

	Of course those large Wendelstein Reaktors, will be to big
	for starships. Perhaps american Tokamaks will start working
	short times later. Tokamaks are much smaller ( fit into a
	stateroom ;-) but currently consume much more energy than they
	produce. (about 10-100 times !)

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 03:06:54 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Anti-Missile Fighter

Moin Paul Kestner,

>    To really upset the other guy,  put 2.6 meters of armor on this
> fighter to give it some resistance <grin> to the tactic of using the
> first wave of missiles to clear your fighters.   Of course this forces
> a redesign to account for the extra mass of that much armor,  and it
> won't be as cheap,  but it would be a surprise.


	tl10, 9dt, 3g, 18 g-hours (0.6 m3 of fuel each), 40 armor
	will have 63 m3 free space for pilot, gunner and weapons.
	Base price 3.821 MCr is fairly higher than a missile.

	More important is that you can only store 6 fighter in 100dt,
	while you can store 140 missiles in cradles at the same
	displacement.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:41:38 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Law Level

Moin Andrew Boulton,

	just changed subject to fit ;-)

> > Note I said *trained*.  I would not want anyone to own a
> > firearm unless they had received proper training on how to use and store
> > it.  Ownership of weapons in the U.S. may be a right, but with that
> > right comes a heavy *responsibility* to use them in a proper manner.
> 
> Sadly, most people in the US *don't* get proper training, and many *don't* 
> see it as a responsibility.

	Hm : proper training what do you want paramiliz or hunting club,
	we have both ;-)

	Its a bit differnt here in german (T would say we have a higher
	law level) Of course its posible to own a gun here. There
	are magazines with adverisments, and e.g. a Tschechishe MP is
	available for 600DM by mail orders. I have saw 3 G3s
	in a cracked house (no it wasnt Havenstrasse). In Playboy was
	an article about a man selling weapons in Berlin (for those
	who are not member of a hunting club "schuetzenverein")

	Weapons are like drugs. What I mean ?

	If there is a law against alcohol there will be a Mafia, selling
	wine. If there is a law for mariuana there are "tuerken" ( i thing
	american weed is crown in califorina and mexico ) or a mexican
	selling it. Any time a government increases law level in a part
	I produces a new wealthy class of criminals, and of course an
	opportunity to suppress lower class, political subversives,
	foraign people, and to have a legetimation to also increase
	police, and government "burokratie".

	I always wonder why traveller law level only means weapons.

	We had a planet in our campain, UDP stated law level A. We
	had a job to do there. Ok there we had our guns hidden (in
	nr 5,6 and 7 sandcaster carton) in jumpspace. In habour we saw
	several people with needlers and even 3K lasers. In a bar where
	we wanted to meet any third had a weapon, but we where quite
	cool and nothing happend. Out Joern means he had to smoke a
	cigarette as to resove the shock. 20 seconds later a police
	drone arived and told that smoking is not allowed and that
	he is arested now.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:08:55 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: 2nd Imperium TL

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton), responding to Harold, wrote:
>>>And this is where *my* beliefs diverge from those of Hollywood. (and
>>>those of the American people, as you imply) Violence begets violence,
>>>it does not solve it.
>>
>>    Someone had to stop Hitler.  No one (or should I say 0.0001 percent
>> of the population) believed that Hitler and the Nazis Party could be
>> convinced in 1939 to withdraw their forces from Poland, free all
>> political prisioners, and surrender control of Germany to proper
>> authorities.  That's why WW II had to be fought.  It would have been
>> *wonderful* if Hitler could have been taken out early on and his
>> movement died before it could wreak havoc, but when you've got a madman
>> with a large number of armed body guards, that isn't always an option.
>
>Of course, if a certain country had helped in *1939*, rather than waiting
>for 2 years, WW2 could've been over a lot sooner.

On the other hand, had a certain island nation and its gallic ally been a
little more forthcoming in honoring alliances and taking action in 1939,
WW2 would have ended sooner still.

Unfortunately, very few nations in 1939, 1941 oreven today were blessed
with prescience or foresight.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:45:00 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 21st Century Terran TL

Daniel Ray Lane:

>WE speak the TL code on the TML because we learned it from Traveller,
>but how many of your non-TML friends talk like this?  basically none.
> Most folks talk of "High Tech" and "Low Tech" at best without any
>greater gadation.

Actually, *none* of the four players in my group are members of the TML and
at least two of them speak quite frequently of varied TLs. It's not so much
a TML thing as it is a World Builder's Handbook thing. The divided tech and
law levels have been part of my campaigns since MegaTraveller.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml




- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:29:57 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Question:  Ht and Wt

> Since I don't have TNE, I'm curious. How does this work in those
> rules?

Actually, TNE only covers a character's mass, and this is a function 
of that character's Str and Agility (would be T4's Dex) score.

Substitute Dex score for Agility score below.

For males, weight is--
                  80 + [4 x (Str - Agl)] kilograms

For females, weight is--
                    65 + [4 x (Str - Agl)] kilograms

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:33:48 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re : Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

>You can generate low end X-ray lasers using cyclotron radiation using the
>"Free Electron Laser", which I believe were investigated as part of SDI.

There has to be a theoretical upper limit on efficiency way below 50% for
free-electron "lasers" they generate the beam from "bremsstrahlung" but
only the forward part of it adds constructively to the laserpulse - the
rest is bled off.

Those thinking that x-ray lasers and gamma lsers are much to hard to make
efficient should note that we are comparing them to gravity focussed
gizmos! How efficient can they be without breaking the soundbarrier through
severe handwaving?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:44:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Cities in Flight

>Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
>Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
>The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
>Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.

Without bashing that Norton guy/girl(?) too much the free traders were
(according to MM in several interviews) based on Nicholas van Rijn et al
from Polu Anderson. The same can be said about the Imperium as a whole (the
Flandry books by Anderson) and also the Vargr (Hunters of the sky cave by
Anderson). Anderson used a sort of stutterwarp in his future history but
the feel of the empire in its last grand days before the collapse fits
traveller neatly.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 18:28 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Vilani First Contact

In-Reply-To: <199708071600.MAA24899@assets.wharton.upenn.edu>

>  The Long-Range Colonizing missions sent out in generation ships to
> the Islands _had_ to be a worst-case insurance plan against destruction by
> the "Baddies from Barnard."  There's no other reason to send slowboats so 
> far to such a totally isolated region of space except to preserve the race 
> in case of catastrophe.  So, obviously the ESA knew it, and presumably 
> the US and other powers of the time, whoever the were, probably knew it, too.
>  The expedition to the Islands was launched in 2050, so, 
> considering preparation time, the ESA had to know by at least 2040, 
> probably earlier.

Maybe they were originally intended to go somewhere closer, but the destination 
was changed to somewhere safer when the Vilani were discovered?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1672
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Monday, August 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1673



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sensor rules status
Fast Growing India
Re: Question:  Laser Sights
Re: 21st century Terra
Re: 2nd Imperium TL
Re: Disintegrators
M:E21
Re: IW Terra tech
Re: X-Boat List
Pocket Empires bug
Re: M:E21
Re: M:E21
Re: Disintegrators
re:Second Careers
Changed T4.1 skill levels
Re:Apology
(ALL) Re: 21st Century Terran TL
Re: Mileu:E21
(E:21) Power Structure

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:27:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Sensor rules status

I'm collecting various suggestions for errata. Some things that are quite
likely to change include the rules for getting FC locks (probably removing
the need for a task role and making an FC lock easier - it's currently fairly
easy to design a missile that can't be locked onto before it reaches
detonation range.) Also the conversion tables to/from FFS1 may get adjusted
a bit (though it's hard to match everything...If I had the opportunity to
redo what is in FFS2 over again from scratch I'd probably take the chance to
work harder at making at least some sensors roughly plug-compatible with 
FFS1.) 

Unfortunately I'm not going to be checking traveller-related email for a week
or so - and I'll probably not read the TML at all in that time; please
send any sensor-rule-related questions or suggestions either to 
gdw-beta or directly to me.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:38:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Fast Growing India

Here's a news item off AP today that underscores problems with, for
instance, claims that due to it's growing middle class India will be a
major power soon:

Hewlett Packard Abandons Indian
 Plant Plans
         9:55 a.m. EDT (1355 GMT) August 11, 1997

 NEW DELHI - Hewlett-Packard has abandoned plans to
 locate a $400 million inkjet printer plant in India, the head
 of the company's India unit said. 

 "India does not have the infrastucture to support the plant.
 The choice is now between Penang in Malaysia and
 Shanghai in China,'' Suresh Rajpal, president,
 Hewlett-Packard India Ltd (HPIL), told Reuters. 

 Rajpal said HP already had a large presence in Penang and
 in Shanghai. 

 "Why can't India have at least one international airport
 from which it takes 30 minutes to exit ... within easy reach
 of a manufacturing destination, from where a product can
 be shipped out in four hours.'' 

 He said it takes seven to eight days to import goods into
 this country. "Sometimes, you can't even find your
 products in the customs warehouse for days.'' 

 Earlier this year, HP pulled out from a joint venture with
 India's HCL group, HCL Hewlett-Packard, which
 manufactured computers in India. 

 HP has not written off manufacturing printers in India,
 Rajpal said, but will wait for local demand to drive it. 

 "If we can get up to a market share of 250,000 printers a
 year, based on the sales of about two million personal
 computers (PCs), we could drag manufacturing to India,''
 he said. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:34:03 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Question:  Laser Sights

	This comes a bit late as I have four days wortf of TML to catch 
up...

> Laser sights for pistols sell for about $400.00, and are about the
> size of a cigarette lighter.  "Sight" isn't the right word; it's
> really a pointer that tells the shooter where the gun is pointed.

	Actually, I've seen smaller ones too. Small enough to fit in the 
gun, in fact. About an year ago, I got to test-shoot a Glock 19 with 
a built-in laser sight that replaced the spring guide rod, with 
bateries located in the grip.

	The really cute feature was that the laser flashed on and off:
saves power and is easier to find with naked eye, even in bright
daylight. It was an indoor range of only 25 meters, so I didn't get
to test how far the laser dot is visible, although IMO if the target 
is further than 25 meters away handguns are good for "suppresive 
fire" only.

	One more mention about laser sights: It takes a whiule to get used 
to one. The first time I tried a laser (attached to a Beretta M92F) I 
was completely at loss. I knew there was a red dot somewere out 
there, but it took me several seconds to find it - seconds which I 
could've spend aiming using iron sights in a competition, or seconds 
in which the opposition could've taken a nice and cool aim at your 
humble narrator had that been a combat situation.

	Lasers have their uses, but for 70% of the time, they're just fancy 
toys that get in the way. How to fit that into game rules, that's 
different... :)


/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:19:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: 21st century Terra

On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Harold Hale,
> 
> >    According to Traveller, about 2010.  According to reality, perhaps
> > some 5-15 years later.  Like room temperature superconductors,
> > economical picture phones, and the Falco comeback CD/tour, seemingly
> > just around the corner...
> 
> 	The small Wendelstein (15m diameter) in Garchingen actualy
> 	produces more energy then it consumes. We are currently building
> 	the large Wendelstein (35m diameter) in Greifswald, and this
> 	beast will certainly have turbines, and hopefully finished
> 	2002.

Do you have some references to this? The IPP's web page regarding the
Wendelstein doesn't mention this, only that the Wendelstein is a
stellarator-type reactor designed to study the feasability of this.

If they'd achieved steady-state energy production, I'd think it would be
trumpeted on the web page...

Also, one of the groups to reach breakeven WAS a tokomak type reactor. I
could be wrong, since I'm vaguely recalling something I read on the TML.

(Oh great, now the TML is up there with "I remember something the other
month in Scientific American" in my mental search strategy...you know, the
"other month" parameter that produces decade old hits ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:31:21 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: 2nd Imperium TL

On  8 Aug 97 at 1:51, Harold Hale wrote:

>   Actually, I've heard some minor rumblings from Alaska regarding
> the possibility of going it alone.  Nothing serious, but I think it
> would make a butt kicking near future novel.

	Even better, I quite like the scenario of "Russians in Alaska", as 
in Twilight:2000. Doesn't quite work anymore, back in the days of 
Soviet Union it would've been great to run a T:2K campaign with the 
PCs as Soviet soldiers stuck in Alaska (kind of turning the table, so 
to speak).

	Also regarding Alaska, years ago I read a Clive Cussler thriller 
(can't remember its name right now) in which the heroic scientist 
Dirk Pitt hunted an old document that provided the Soviets the right 
to buy Alaska back within 150 (?) years, at the same price. Nifty 
idea, too bad the book itself was crap.

	Back to gaming, in an alternate reality campaign I ran a few years 
back (GURPS: Rocket Age) Alaska was used as a dumping ground for the
un-Americans (anarchists, gays, native Americans, social democrats, 
communist spies etc.), until the situation blew in the 1970s. Alaska 
declared independence, Federal Government sent in the troops, all 
hell broke loose. Especially since the Imperial Japan had promised 
the native americans to keep Alaska as their new homeland if they 
could drive the white gaijin away. :) The war in Alaska became the 
equivalent of Vietnam in the minds of Americans after over 10 years 
of guerrilla warfare.


/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:22:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:48:00 -0400
> From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
> 
> This is one way I have developed disintigrators for my game.
> 
> Please bear in mind that I am not a physicist, this is just some stuff I 
> came up with while in college.  You guys in the know can help me out with 
> this little "theory" :)
> 
> Ok, heres the deal.
> I was thinking about antimater while studying one day. This was in Chemestry 
> where we were discussing ionizations.  I remember something about stripping 
> away electrons.  I soon thought about the anti-electron, or positron.  Now 
> according to what little college chem and physics I had I was thinking that 
> if most matter is joined togeteher through these electon bonds, what would 
> happen to that matter if shot with a steady stream of positrons.   Would the 
> electrons and positrons anihilate each other, thereby destroying the 
> electron bonds and causing the ions or pure nuclei to fly appart?  Would 
> this positronic beam then be a true disintigrator?
> 
> This sounds too simple, and I know physics isn't :)

Actually, the core of physics is stunningly simple.  It's all the
applications that get hard. :)

> Ok physicist guys, is there some other law(s) I'm ignoring here?  Or are the 
> effects of a positronic beam that devistating?

Well, I'm more of an ex-chemist guy, but I'll take a shot at it.

Your beam would be a true disintegrator, but it would be even more
'violent' than the strong-force-suppression version previously under
discussion.  Each e-p annihilation produces two 511 keV photons (= gamma
rays).  These would tend to strongly couple with nearby matter,
immediately heating it into a plasma (= big fusion-bomb-type explosion).
The effect of bare-nucleus electrostatic repulsion would be swamped by the
effect of e-p annihilation in terms of disintegration energy.

The other problem with a positron beam is beam dispersion.  In a vacuum,
the beam would 'repel itself', so to speak, causing any reasonably dense
beam to smear out after a *very* short distance (order 10s of meters, I'd
guess); this would thus be useless as a space weapon.  In an atmosphere,
one might expect to use the CPAWS ion-tunneling effect, but as the
positrons would annihilate electrons in the air just off the end of the
barrel, you'd end up blowing up your own weapon before anything bad
happened to the target.

My own favorite disintegrator is Niven's version.  This device suppresses
the charge on either the electron or the proton (depending on the model
and setting) using some unspecified handwave technology.  Matter in its
path explosively turns into plasma due to mutual electostatic repulsion of
whatever charge you haven't suppressed, and electrons no longer being
bound to nuclei.  It reforms (into dust and gas) with much discharge of
static electricity once it blows out of the beam.  For *real* fun you can
aim the proton- and electron-suppressing versions at two spots on a planet
a few dozen kilometers apart, and watch a solid bar of 'lightning' flow
across the resulting voltage difference, eradicating everything in its
path. 

Sometimes Niven at his best gets into "Doc" Smith territory... :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: 11 Aug 1997 12:55 CDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: M:E21

Marcus may be right, the Milieu may have to come right out and
say what Earth's power structure is.

My opinion is that we should have fun with it and turn the status
quo on its side.  So, without further ado, I present my own
predictions list.

Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations

Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
- ----------------------------------------------------------
China		500M		1.30
India		700M		1.10
USA		400M		0.90
Indonesia	300M		0.70
EU		250M		0.60
Nigeria		200M		0.40
Spanish SA	200M		0.35
Japan		100M		0.30
Korean Union	120M		0.30

Corrections and additions, anyone?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:55:04 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: IW Terra tech

>> why
>> are we allowing characters from a TL or even 2 below that automatically
>> gain it as a background skill? 
>
>Maybe TL 7 is the TL at which the average population is rich enough that
>they can afford to import grav vehicles and they become ubiquitous.  I
>usually prefer to give charecters from TL 7-9 their choice of Grav
>Vehicle _or_ Ground Car. 

This seems a reasonable explanation; I just am one of *those* people who
have problems with the TL being very loosely tied to what can be found on
the planet. I know the explanation that some have made with TLs being
what can actually be produced on the planet; it's just my personal prefer-
ence that if you can buy a TL 9 car on the planet, it's a TL 9 planet... But
I think I can live with a 2-level "slop" factor, I guess.

> If you have the time you can do WBH detailed
>TL to find the transport TL's & use them rather than the general TL.

That's one of the problems of the "what's canon, T4 or the old GDW stuff"
debate as I see it: so many of us don't have items like WBH in our 
collection... I'd love to run a world through its paces, but alas...

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:14:38 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Put down another person who would really hate to see the list split
again. The last time I was on the TML was about 4 years ago in the
TML/XBoat era, and it was a pain to have to deal with. I've yet to
see too much lamentation and gnashing of teeth among *any* of the
various "The Only True Traveller Is ______" groups about the state
of the TML; and the gods only know if it can take the various Task
Wars, "I Know Something and I'm Not Gonna Tell You" Flames, 
and "Why (insert trite political argument here) Sux" Fests, we can
live through any amount of bandwidth junk.

Plus, I just can't help but feel that the same thing will happen as last
time; most of us will subscribe to both to stay current and not miss
anything, and after an initial flurry of post separation over the first
month or two, just about everyone will either a) decide it's too much
bother and post everything to the TML, or b) crosspost everything
to both lists because it fits in either one, and the other list will die
a slow, lingering death yet again. 

Whatever is decided I can certainly go along with, but I'd rather not
see a split happen. Does discussing something that is actually related
to Traveller (rare enough it seems these days <g>) regardless of 
what incarnation actually get seen as a waste of space? I've never, 
ever played in the TNE period and have no interest in doing so, 
but I still mine the posts for ideas.

My Cr 0.02 worth...

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:23:45 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Pocket Empires bug

Reading through Pocket Empires, especially Chapter 8 (War), I found
what looks like a bug.

The text states that all ground units with the same combat values have
approximately the same firepower, no matter what the TL of the units
may be. The example is a TL 6 unit may be made up of thousands of men
armed with rifles, while a TL 15 unit may be a squad of plasma cannon
armed soldiers with combat armor.

However, size of the units is based upon the sum of their offensive
and defensive values! That means each ground unit takes up the same
amount of space to transport no matter what the TL may be.

The idea that the above squad of TL 15 troopers needs as much
transport as the TL 6 multi-division group is quite ludicrous.

Hopefully I misread this and there's a practical and easy fix to this
bug...

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:28:52 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21

 
> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
> 
> Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> China		500M		1.30

Why is china so low?  (I just picked up this thread, sorry if I
missed something)  Shouldn't it be 1.5B?  What about the GNP thing?
I'll assume major changes have happened for these figures, right?
California had a "GDP" close to the PRC in the 80s as I recall.

> India		700M		1.10

Ditto.  India is pushing a billion right now.

> USA		400M		0.90
> Indonesia	300M		0.70

If indonesia is spacefaring, why not Pakistan?  Pakistan has over
300M people right now...

> EU		250M		0.60
> Nigeria	200M		0.40

Space-faring?  SA, maybe, but Nigeria?

> Spanish SA	200M		0.35

Were you going to throw in Brazil by itself I take it?  (not that I
know the Pop or anything :-)

> Japan		100M		0.30
> Korean Union	120M		0.30

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:25:31 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21

> 
> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
> 
> Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> China           500M            1.30
> India           700M            1.10

China has over a billion (thousand million) now, so how did it
lose half its population? I believe India now has over 800 million
but I'm not too sure on that one.

Also, not just because I'm patriotic, but Canada should be included
as one of the spacefaring nations. Or by "spacefaring" do you mean
nations that build/launch their own ships?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:52:34 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:

> 
> I *am*. For any nucleus lighter than Fe56, the binding energy curve is
> such that fissioning the nucleus *uses* energy, rather than produces
> it. That's why you can get energy by *fusing* them. The new combination
> has *less* binding energy than the old one.
> 
> Nuclei heavier than Fe56 will produce energy when fissioned. And Fe56
> is the most stable configuration. Again, the new configuration has less
> binding energy than the old one.
> 
> Remember, binding energy shows up as "missing mass". So by breaking a
> nucleus down into protons and neutrons, you'll *only* produce energy if
> the mass of that many free protons and neutrons exceeds the mass of the
> nucleus you started with. And for anything up to Fe56 that's *not* true.
> 
> I also suspect that it may not be true of at least some heavier nuclei.
> That is, breaking them up into smaller nuclei may release energy, but
> not breaking them all the way down into individual nucleons. I don't
> have a CRC handbook handy, so I can't check a table of isotopes.

All true.  Disintegrators wreck havoc on that curve.  I'm not saying 
that if you fission a carbon atom you get a lot of energy released, I 
know better than that.  I'm saying that if you disintegrate it you 
get a lot of energy released.

How do disintegrators work?  

Do they simply neutralize the SF as Traveller canon indicates? If this 
is the case, then you are left with nothing but the proton-proton
repulsion due to the Coulomb force, essentially equal the negative of
the binding energy.  Again, the nucleus would fly apart violently, as
would the First Law of Thermodynamics.

The BE curve is compiled using empirical, statistical data.  And those
data reflect nuclei assembled AND disassembled in the presence of
the nuclear force.  Disintegrators disable that force.  Perhaps through 
a complex interplay of the Coulomb and Nuclear forces (e-weak force?)
the Coulomb repulsion energy can be exchanged to disable the SF
binding the nucleus together, allowing the constituent nucleons to
simply drift away.  Sounds implausible to me, though.

Perhaps the damper/disintegrator provides the BE required to dissociate 
the nucleus.  This means that disintegrators will require a lot
of power to operate.  Maybe anti-matter.  They simply pay off the
binding energy by pusing the protons to infinity.  Hmmm.  No
strong force manipulation necessary.  This seems wrong.

If this isn't the case, what mechanism might you propose that will
keep the proton-proton Coulomb force from driving the nucleus
apart when the SF is disabled?  It sounds like the disintegrator
may violate the First Law if it can make all of that BE go away
without a peep.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:25:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Second Careers

Marc wrote some details on second careers (which I won't quote as the
formating has gone crazy):

Would a simpler solution be to have a -DM equal to the number of terms
served to date in all previous careers?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:22:11 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Changed T4.1 skill levels

Marc,

If the skill level averages have risen, shouldn't the table for crew
salaries be revised to reflect the higher levels?

(Divide base by 1.25 and similarly for increases?)

Is Skill-1 still adequate to obtain a position on a ship?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:19:22 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:Apology

Bill Prankard aka Commander X wrote:

>Greetings fellow listmembers:
>
>When I responded to the M:E21 post in the last digest, I was using
>Microsloth Exchange, which slaped a nastly little WINMAIL.DAT to the end of
>an already lengthy post.  That's the last time I'd let some System
>Administrator at the office mess arround with my system, in which I know
>works! :)
>
>I have reverted back to my original Mail Program which should not reporduce
>the anoying 'winmail' thing.
>
>Again my appologies for flooding the list.

And I thought it was a secret message from Commander X to his secret
agents, the X-men of X-Tek... At least you didn't repost the entire digest
with it! ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:10:18 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: (ALL) Re: 21st Century Terran TL

Chris Griffen wrote:
> 
> Daniel Ray Lane:
> 
> >WE speak the TL code on the TML because we learned it from Traveller,
> >but how many of your non-TML friends talk like this?  basically none.
> > Most folks talk of "High Tech" and "Low Tech" at best without any
> >greater gadation.
> 
> Actually, *none* of the four players in my group are members of the TML and
> at least two of them speak quite frequently of varied TLs. It's not so much
> a TML thing as it is a World Builder's Handbook thing. The divided tech and
> law levels have been part of my campaigns since MegaTraveller.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chris Griffen
> 

Howdy!

I wasn't implying that Traveller players don't use compartmented 
tech levels, I just meant that very few non-Traveller players 
talk of technology in terms of tech levels.  Most normal folks 
can only conceptualize tech levels as "high-tech" and "low"tech" 
nd "what I use to brush my teeth."  I think most Traveller players 
will understand the TL concept.

Composite TLs are also useful concept and should be based on some
sort of figure of merit, say an average of the component TLs.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:42:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Marc wrote:

>In a message dated 97-08-05 15:31:06 EDT, you write:
><<  This setting has definite possibilities.  >>
>
>I agree.
>
>Marc
>
>Draft Outline.
>* Introduction
>* Setting
>* Characters
>* Mechanics
>* The Solar System
>* Vehicles and Equipment
>* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
>drive and the Vilani.
>
>What else?
>
>Marc

*Give it an overall flavour not unlike T2300 to make it distinct from M0
and M1100. Nice and gritty.

*Most in system ships will be Heplar, and J-Drive will initially be used in
system to reach outer worlds faster. In fact, Jump Drive should be given a
specific name after someone, to preserve a different PoV. "Jump-Drive" only
becomes the name popularised after it becomes common...

*Look at the way the various colonies in the solar system are developing
unique divided cultures (I recommend the Red/Green/Blue Mars Trilogy by Kim
Stanley Robinson for a good take on this) and how the encounter with the
Vilani starts to stop the increasing factionalism.

*Maybe even have different money systems (eco-economics) like the Mars
books describe.

*Belt operations should be addressed and similar to those described in the
CJ Cherryh book 'Heavy Time'.

*Have Earth itself a real environmental mess suffering from global warming
(as hinted at in S&A) and expansion a necessity to survive.

*Have the cities in a mess like Bladerunner but *not* cyberpunk.

*Solar sails and cyclers (constant looping ships between earth and Mars as
described in the Cyberpunk supplement Deep Space, and also the Mars books...

* detail the Transnational corporations and friction between them and
governments.

*Reflect the arrogance within the culture assuming they are the most
advanced and alone in space..

And then you drop the Vilani on them.

*Have interesting groups like 'Terrans for Peace!' agitating for the
benefits of joining the Ziru Sirka.

*The CJ Cherryh book 'Hellburner' is a wonderful description of service
in-fighting in the development of warships to fight the enemy. And the
necessity of recruiting Belters and Shepherds (who collect the rocks the
belters give to the Mass Driver Ships to send...) to man military vessels
as they think in the right way. This gets interesting if they are
culturally opposed to the military...

Dom

PS You could even have a a precursor to Gen Assist called Genetic Controls
(AKA GenCon!) 8-)

PPS I really like the idea of this.


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:22:33 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: (E:21) Power Structure

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
> 
> Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> China           500M            1.30
> India           700M            1.10
> USA             400M            0.90
> Indonesia       300M            0.70
> EU              250M            0.60

Did something "nasty" happen to lower the populations of
China and India?

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1673
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1674



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: X-Boat List
Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level
Re: M:E21
Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
Re: M:E21
Re: M:E21
Re: M:E21
Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Old DGP Sectors
Galactic Viewer
Re: M:E21 longish
Re: 21st century Terra
Re: M:E21
M:E21 Spacefaring nations
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
Re: Old DGP Sectors
Re(2): Cities in Flight
THUDDD 5: Final results announcement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:26:53 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Paul D. Owensby wrote:

(Snipster)

> Whatever is decided I can certainly go along with, but I'd rather not
> see a split happen. Does discussing something that is actually related
> to Traveller (rare enough it seems these days <g>) regardless of
> what incarnation actually get seen as a waste of space? I've never,
> ever played in the TNE period and have no interest in doing so,
> but I still mine the posts for ideas.
> 
> My Cr 0.02 worth...

Sounds like experience implores that Traveller remain one coherent
entity online.  My support of a separate X-Boat list is predicated
on the impression that some might take offense to Rebellion era 
ravings.  Maybe this isn't the case.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:34:23 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level

At 06:19 PM 8/10/97 +0000, Daniel wrote:
><snip>
>
>If anyone is interested if discussing SWarp in the Traveller universe
>on a serious technical basis, let me know.  I'll have you believing
>it really works as a microjump drive.
>
>-Dan Lane
>

Yes. Stutter Warp is just an alternate application of the same principles
that produces Jump effects. Functional difference is that Stutter Warp
requires a stop after approximate 2 parsecs, where jump limits at 6. 

And both are predicated on an understanding of gravity; basic gravitics
gives you thruster plates, jump drives and stutter warp. You may not be able
to make the gravitic control small enough to stick under someone's car; but
you can shift a 100+ dt ship about a start system with it.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:38:24 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: M:E21

At 05:55 PM 8/11/97 +0000, Robert wrote:
>Marcus may be right, the Milieu may have to come right out and
>say what Earth's power structure is.
>
>My opinion is that we should have fun with it and turn the status
>quo on its side.  So, without further ado, I present my own
>predictions list.
>
>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>
>Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
>----------------------------------------------------------
>China		500M		1.30
>India		700M		1.10
>USA		400M		0.90
>Indonesia	300M		0.70
>EU		250M		0.60
>Nigeria		200M		0.40
>Spanish SA	200M		0.35
>Japan		100M		0.30
>Korean Union	120M		0.30
>
>Corrections and additions, anyone?
>
>Rob
>

I would say this is an opportunity for those with more experience in PE to
apply the PE rules to Earth in the 21st century as a Balkanized world, and
start us from that point on in development of ME21.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:27:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

RSpake2064@aol.com wrote:

>here is a little speech i would like to share with the list.  i would like
>you all to try and decide who gave the speech.  just to make sure you know
>who the speech maker is i will repost the speech with the name of the
>speaker.....

>"This year will go down in history.  For the first time in, a civilised
>nation has full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police 
more
>efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
>okay folks who said it....

How lovely, I arrive back from a wonderful GenCon to find some utter moron
has trolled the TML with this entirely off-topic crap.  Yes, I know who
said this.  He also built lots of road in Germany, does that make
supporting road-building suspect too?  Most of Western Europe has full gun
control including all the Scandinavian nations.  Are they all fascist
police states?  Sweden has a higher standard of living than the US, higher
literacy, less crime, and gun control, but wait, I guess we just can't see
the invisible Nazi's swarming all over Western Europe, I'm certain that
you can. 

This is not the place for such arguments, but if idiots post stuff like
that quote I will respond to it.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
- -Liberal and Proud

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:44:28 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: M:E21

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Marcus may be right, the Milieu may have to come right out and
> say what Earth's power structure is.
>
> My opinion is that we should have fun with it and turn the status
> quo on its side.  So, without further ado, I present my own
> predictions list.
>
> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations

[snip crazy predictions]

>Corrections and additions, anyone?


   Barring some monumental catastrophe (e.g., large meteor impact) these
numbers are way off.  As said by many others, China is well over a
billion.  Also, for the US pop to reach 400mil in even mid 21st isn't
going to happen, its well shy of 300mil now and not growing particularly
fast.

Population growth varies widely among countries.  Some lesser developed
countries are doubling their poulations every 20 years.  Some more
prosperous are fairly steady.  And other factors are involved.  Recall
that China, even with its Billion+ pop has a one-child rule.  If that
changed anytime soon its poulation would really jump.  Better access to
health care and a better diet would both decrease mortality and probably
increase fertility, compounding the problem.  Also, since the one-child
rule has led to a high rate of aborted female fetuses (presumable
because males are better able to contribute financially to the family)
if it changed, there would very likely be a dramatic change in the
male-female ratio towards the female side, increasing pop. further.

Regardless, I am beginning to seriously question whether a Milieu 21st C
can work.  Canon is serioulsy threatened.  Its time for the Deus Ex
Machina.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:20:28 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: M:E21

> Also, not just because I'm patriotic, but Canada should be included
> as one of the spacefaring nations. Or by "spacefaring" do you mean
> nations that build/launch their own ships?


Maple leaf land built a nice arm on the Space Shuttle..thats kinda
spacefaring:)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 20:22:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M:E21

On 08/11/97 at 11:38 PM,  Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> said:

>At 05:55 PM 8/11/97 +0000, Robert wrote:
>>Marcus may be right, the Milieu may have to come right out and
>>say what Earth's power structure is.

>I would say this is an opportunity for those with more experience in PE to
>apply the PE rules to Earth in the 21st century as a Balkanized world, and
>start us from that point on in development of ME21.

Are you saying we should run a "Great Game" to plot the political,
economic, military, and technological events of the next 100 years?  Now,
where have I seen *that* before?  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:27:35 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?

>I've always been intrigued by the idea of a Psionically enhanced martial
>art.  Using awareness and perhaps telepathy to anticipate moves, find
>the weak point, etc.

Go the Physical Adept! (for all you Shadowrun players out there).

Seriously, I remember there was a discussion on the martial arts vs
brawling thing when I first joined the list (back in mid-January). The
argument seemed to go 'round and 'round in circles about how much advantage
martial arts would give you over "the school of hard knocks" form of
fighting. As with a lot of the discussions on the TML, I don't think
anything was ultimately agreed on. Personally, I wouldn't add it as a
seperate skill unless the skill was harder to get/raise levels in (with an
associated bonus to to hit/damage in unarmed combat). Unfortunately T4 does
not have such a mechanism.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 04:20:19 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

Moin Nick Munn,

> X-lasers are sort of hard to power... do you have a little fusion 
> chamber powering each one?  The famous SDI X-lasers were powered by 
> atomic (fusion? fission?) bombs, which suggests they're not easy to 
> pump!

	this sounds interesting, perhaps we should give solomani
	two technologies : X-Ray lasers / Meson Guns. Both technologies
	are theoretic at first war, and reliable at 9th war.

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:38:52 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Old DGP Sectors

Does anybody know where I can get my hands on the 35 sectors that DGP
released to the old Sunbane files?

If so, I would like to get a copy.  DGP's work is tops!

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:36:51 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Galactic Viewer

I just saw a copy of Jim Vassilakos' Galactic Viewer tonight, and wow,
what a great job he did!

Does anybody know if v2.1 is the latest, or is there a later version
that I need to get?

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:03:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: M:E21 longish

In a message dated 97-08-11 20:50:41 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 China		500M		1.30
 India		700M		1.10
 USA		400M		0.90
 Indonesia	300M		0.70
 EU		250M		0.60
 Nigeria		200M		0.40
 Spanish SA	200M		0.35
 Japan		100M		0.30
 Korean Union	120M		0.30
  >>

Not meaning to sound Euro/Ameri-centric, I find it hard to believe that China
and India will be able to project the "power" you predict.  China might be a
possiblility if they maintain a population on the order of 800million as much
of their economic power is based upon individual humans.  China could occupy
Siberia and that would give them the resource base with which to build a
self-sustaining "modern" infrastructure. 

India is in a more precarious position due to several factors.  The caste
system stratifies Hindu culture to such an extent that educating the
1.25billion plus citizens that would be more likely by the Milieu E21 setting
would be a phenomenally daunting task.  That's not even taking into
consideration that they are pretty much geographically/sociopolitically
isolated.  Islamic Pakistan and the future Islamic bloc(?) would prevent
expansion to the West while China's successful incorporation of the South
East Asian countries excepting Indonesia prevents expansion to the North and
East.

I believe that an interesting development would be the annexation of
Australia by Indonesia.  After all, Java alone has 90 million people versus
Australia's 18million.  Australia has incredibly vast natural resources and
the thought of those infidels possessing such wealth will prove sorely
tempting to an aggressively expansionistic nation like Indonesia.

Oh well, my .02Cr or should that be rupiah?

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:41:15 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: 21st century Terra

Moin Bruce Johnson,

> Do you have some references to this? The IPP's web page regarding the
> Wendelstein doesn't mention this, only that the Wendelstein is a
> stellarator-type reactor designed to study the feasability of this.

	current pulse on the small Wendelstein is 10 seconds, aquiring
	12MW to heat the plasma, and producing about 14-18MW. The
	Wendelstein princip is capable to enclose a costant plasma,
	but as the small Wendelstein is an experimental reaktor, short
	test pulses (about 2500 for AS-7) with steady reconfiguration
	are dayly work there. Longes pulse tested was 5 minutes on a AS-X.

> If they'd achieved steady-state energy production, I'd think it would be
> trumpeted on the web page...

	Der geplante Nachfolger, die vollst&auml;ndig optimierte Anlage
	WENDELSTEIN 7-X soll nun die Reaktortauglichkeit der neuen
	Stellaratoren demonstrieren.

	Money for this reaktor was founded 96, and they started to build
	it. Size is 35m diameter and produced energy should be around
	1000 MW.

> Also, one of the groups to reach breakeven WAS a tokomak type reactor. I
> could be wrong, since I'm vaguely recalling something I read on the TML.

	While Wendelstein type reators have a steady stream of plasma,
	with injection of LHy (55 keV) and Deuterium (65 keV), Tokamaks
	are limited to short pulses, So I wont think that they reach
	production state soon.

> (Oh great, now the TML is up there with "I remember something the other
> month in Scientific American" in my mental search strategy...you know, the
> "other month" parameter that produces decade old hits ;-)

	There was an article in "Bild der Wissenschaft" and one
	in "Science", covering the Wendelstein project.

	BTW: Here are the stats of the small Wendelstein :

	- Mass 550 Tonnes
	- Diameter 15m
	- Hight 3m
	- Plasmawendel 5.5m * 0.53m
	- Magnetwendel 3 - 3.9 Tesla
	- Heating 12MW
	- Heating frequence 30-120 MHz (tuneable ;-)
	- Injection 3 milligramm at 12 million degree
	- Working temperatur 50 million degree 10 seconds later
	- Steady injection 0.5 milligram/second

By Michael
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:29:12 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: M:E21

>Also, not just because I'm patriotic, but Canada should be included
>as one of the spacefaring nations. Or by "spacefaring" do you mean
>nations that build/launch their own ships?

Very true, we could list Canada the same way they get listed on the
Shuttles' robotic arms:

USA(Canada)	400m		0.9

:) Smileys all round, folks :)

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:42:37 +1200
From: "Douglas D, Law School Computer Support" <DOUGLASD@waikato.ac.nz>
Subject: M:E21 Spacefaring nations

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>
>Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
>- ----------------------------------------------------------
 ...
>Indonesia       300M            0.70
 ...
>Corrections and additions, anyone?

 I recently read something somewhere about serious commercial interest
 in launch sites in Northern Australia which had the advantages of
 (a) proximity to the equator - cheaper launch vehicles/greater payload
 (b) better weather than other launch facilities (ie, the US/European
 launch sites)

 Milieu E21 should reflect these sort of factors either in
 (a) countries with good launch sites having involvement in Space
 (b) conflict between nations over good launch sites.

 for example, taking the aforementioned launch sites in Northern Oz,
 E21 could see major conflict between Australia and Indonesia for the
 launch facilities on the Northern portion of the Australian continent.

 (either that, or a joint Oz:Indonesian collaboration)

D.
- --
Douglas D.   Computer Support, School of Law, Waikato University.
email: douglasd@waikato.ac.nz  /  phone:  (07) 856-2889 ext 6258
"Any sufficiently advanced OS is indistinguishable from AmigaDOS"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 02:09:24 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

Nick Munn writes:

>> One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
>> no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
>> that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
>> end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and copies
>> it from the Vilani. This makes for lots of fun things - aircraft and helicopters
>> rather than grav vehicles, large spacecraft are incapable of landing on planets
>> and you need to use shuttles, ground-to-orbit is very expensive, etc.
>
>I must admit, I like the idea.  (Based on the couple of episodes of 
>Space: Above and Beyond I saw, the feel might well be similar: clunky 
>Terran tech and enemy grav tanks, energy weapons etc.)

   Space: Above and Beyond would make an excellent role model. 
Thrusters with thrust vectoring on assault landing craft and fighters,
and treads on armored fighting vehicles for the Terrans.  The way I
envisioned the Interstellar Wars working, the Terrans would eventually
have an advantage in space naval tech, whereas the Vilani would have had
an advantage on the ground.  Fortunately for the Terrans, the outcome
hinged more on happening in space rather than planetside.

>However... the point is made somewhere canonical (AM6 or MT I'd 
>guess) that the reason Terrans took so long to develop fusion power 
>is that they persisted in using EM fields to contain the reaction.  
>Once they developed gravitic containment, fusion power became viable.
>In other words, something very similar to contragrav is available in 
>the E2100 era.

   I had not read this.  Gravitic containment doesn't necessarily
translate into grav vehicles, however.  It could be that the Terrans get
gravitic vehicles from the Vilani after capturing a few.

>(*Can* one build reasonable grav tanks without Fusion+?  I'd think
>TL 9 fusion plants would be too large...)

   Using FF&S I it was possible, I can't say for the MMT version.  My
guess would be no.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:07:54 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

Leonard Erickson wote

> Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Peter Newman wrote:
> >
> >> On the other hand you may be able to detect their _mass_ right away
> >> based on the gravitational effect.  Maybe as a further refinement ships
> >>  can detect ships instantly at long distances only if they have the
> >> right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
> >> that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
> >> require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
> >> soley on the targets mass.
> >
> > On the other other hand, according to special relativity gravity
> > propagates at the speed of light.
 
> But the ship's gravity has *always* been radiating out from it. So a
> ship jumping into system *can* detect it immediately (if it can detect
> it at all). It's no different than being able to see the star
> immediately. You are observing photons that left the star some time
> ago.

Yes this is what I meant all along.  I meant when you jump in system you
should be able to tell right away where masses were a little while ago.
If your sensors are good enough this may include masses as small as
those of a ship.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:30:07 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Old DGP Sectors

Moin Kenneth Bearden,

> Does anybody know where I can get my hands on the 35 sectors that DGP
> released to the old Sunbane files?
> 
> If so, I would like to get a copy.  DGP's work is tops!

	try : http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe/traveller
	or    ~kraehe/browser/data
	or    ~kraehe/pub/browser.tgz
	      - realy big 500kB !

	be aware that the sector viewer is NOT running yet on this
	site, as I need to ask root for cgi. Coming RSN ;-)

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:06:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re(2): Cities in Flight

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) writes:

>>Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
>>Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
>>The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
>>Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.

>

>Without bashing that Norton guy/girl(?) too much the free traders were
>(according to MM in several interviews) based on Nicholas van Rijn et al
>from Polu Anderson. The same can be said about the Imperium as a whole (the
>Flandry books by Anderson) and also the Vargr (Hunters of the sky cave by
>Anderson). Anderson used a sort of stutterwarp in his future history but
>the feel of the empire in its last grand days before the collapse fits
>traveller neatly.


  Er. Having read both Norton and Anderson extensively, I can say quite
honestly that Traveller owes a lot to both. Andre Norton (aka Alice Mary
Norton; one of those female writers forced to adopt a male name to get
published at all, since she started writing in 1932) wrote several dozen
books in at least one future history. More of a storyteller than a hard
SF writer, Norton nonetheless is very consistent with her hardware.  I
consider her Solar Queen series necessary reading for any Traveller
player interested in doing a Merchant character.  Other books I consider
worth reading for Traveller players are the Time Traders cycle, the Zero
Stone/Uncharted Stars pair, and of course Star Rangers. There are others
as well, as she has written nearly 100 novels in her long career.

  Poul Anderson has been writing for almost as long, has many books
worth a Traveller players' time, and did indeed (according to an interview
of Marc Miller that FASA did) contribute many ideas and concepts to
Traveller. Traveller players would be remiss to not have read his Flandry
series and the Van Rijn/Falkayn cycle (both part of the same future
history). I also recommend the Psychotechnic League cycle and most of
his other SF.

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:05:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 5: Final results announcement

THUDDD 5: July 1997: Yacht
Final results announcement

Sorry this is so late...and once again, congratulations to Famille 
Spofulam and to all the other contestants.

This info is now also available on the THUDDD website at

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Remember that the low-tech SDB THUDDD is currently under way; designs are 
due next week.  The specs for this THUDDD appeared on the TML and ISBA 
lists last week, and should be on the website by Wednesday.

***
                                      
   OVERALL DESIGN 
     1  Imelda - Class Yacht   Roderick Darroch Elliott
        rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca                                2.78
     2  Rising Star   Peter H. Brenton
        brenton@psfc.mit.edu                                   3.20
     3  Xanadu 3 - Class Yacht   Bill Ernoehazy
        blackwilliam@hotmail.com                               3.56

   MOST LIKELY TO USE IN A GAME 
     1  Rising Star   Peter H. Brenton
        brenton@psfc.mit.edu                                   3.30
     2t Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht   Sebastien Normandin
        luckyj@microtec.net                                    3.56
     2t Xanadu 3 - Class Yacht   Bill Ernoehazy
        blackwilliam@hotmail.com                               3.56
     5  Imelda - Class Yacht   Roderick Darroch Elliott
        rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca                                3.78

   MOST UNUSUAL DESIGN 
     1  Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht   Sebastien Normandin
        luckyj@microtec.net                                    2.89
     2  Imelda - Class Yacht   Roderick Darroch Elliott
        rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca                                3.44
     3t Rising Star   Peter H. Brenton
        brenton@psfc.mit.edu                                   4.00
     3t Sluce - Class Yacht   Giovanni
        Giovanni@bellatlantic.net                              4.00

   BEST-WRITTEN DESCRIPTION 
     1  Imelda - Class Yacht   Roderick Darroch Elliott
        rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca                                2.67
     2  Rising Star   Peter H. Brenton
        brenton@psfc.mit.edu                                   3.10
     3  Ludwig - Class Pleasure Yacht   Sebastien Normandin
        luckyj@microtec.net 3.22

Winning entry:

  Imelda - Class Yacht
  
   Designer: Roderick Darroch Elliott rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca
   Firm: Famille Spofulam Yards
   System: SSDS (beta pdf)

Tons: 500 Std (A/F Saucer)    Volume: 7000 m^3                   Cost: 305 MCr
Crew: 14                      High/Mid Pass: 9                   Low: 0
Cargo: 20 Std                 Controls: TL-12 Hi auto (Bridge)   TL: 12

08 Size                               03 Jump Drive (150 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                      04 Maneuver (T-plate, 20,000 Tons Thrust)
01x 95 Mj Civ. Laser (0) 1/1-0-0-0    2.4 Power Plant (1x 600Mw)
                                      150 Fuel (Scoop 40, Refine 8.3)
                                      00 Meson Screen (0 Mw)
                                      01 Sandcasters (30 Cans)
01x Spacious Hangar (20 td launch)    00 Nuclear Damper
                                      A4 P4 J0 Sensors (0 Stealth/Cloak)
                                      10 Armor, 22 Structure

Crew Detail: 02 Command, 02 Sensors, 02 Gunners, 02 Engineer, 03 Steward,
             02 Flight Deck

Notes: Vessel is equipped with sickbay.

   News Item, Imperial Yacht Club Newsletter, IY 16-322:
   
    Famille Spofulam Yards Launches New Yacht
    
   Recently, I was given the opportunity of touring the first production
   model of Famille Spofulam's latest yacht offering. Greeted by Hengabar
   Spofulam at Famille Spofulam's orbital HQ, I was treated to the usual
   Spofulam wet bar and buffet before being ushered onto the antiseptic
   floor of Production Line #3 to tour the prototype, which is to be used
   as a corporate yacht by FSY.
   
   This reporter's first reaction upon viewing FSY's latest, sitting
   incongrously next to the hulking black form of a Bludgeon-class patrol
   cruiser, was: "It's a baby Caligula!". Indeed, the Imelda-class yacht
   (named after an ancient Terran queen renowned for her love of luxury
   and lavish tastes) is outwardly very similar to FSY's well-known
   1000-ton megayacht; it has an airframe saucer hull with prominent
   vertical stabilizers evoking early space-age Terran ground craft
   styling, in default hull colour settings of hot pink and chrome.
   Although the Imelda is somewhat sleeker than the Caligula, the family
   resemblance is pronounced.
   
   The Imelda's performance and specifications are pure Spofulam; 4G
   T-plate maneuver drives, a 3-parsec jump drive, a hull stressed to
   10G's for atmospheric operations and heavy armour are what we've come
   to expect from Hengabar's boys and girls. The only exception is the
   rather prosaic 95 Mj laser/sandcaster armament suite. Scoops, a
   purification plant and a hangar for a 20-ton launch reflect the
   Spofulam concern for spaceworthiness and functionality; the Imelda is
   capable of more than just the Highport to Highport run. In general,
   this is a fast, long-ranged and capable craft.
   
   While the exterior and performance specs are fairly standard for a
   Spofulam vessel. the interior decor reflects a new departure from
   FSY's trademark blond wood and indirect lighting motif. Rather than
   striving for simplicity, maximum ergonomic efficiency, and richness of
   material, FSY's interior designers have gone for all-out opulence in
   the newly popular Restoration style; an ornate fusion of First and
   Second Imperium motifs expressed in Sylean materials. The result, the
   product of months of work by noted designer Chonpohl Ghohltyeh, is
   stunning: the panelling is of burled green Lartsa-wood, with obsidian
   tile floors inlaid with green and white nephrite. Fixtures are crafted
   of Iridium-plated gold engraved with both Imperial Sunbursts and Ziru
   Sirkaa and Rule of Man heraldry, and the furnishings are upholstered
   in the finest butter-soft Noggah skin, dyed to match the panelling.
   Ghohltyeh's services are available for those wishing to create their
   own decors, albeit for an additional fee.
   
   Mr. Spofulam led me in through the hangar, as the passenger airlocks
   were not yet fully completed. The hangar is situated right aft,
   between the two vertical stabilizers. At the moment empty, the hangar
   is designed to accomodate an Imperial-standard 20td launch, with space
   enough to permit maximum ease of on-board service. After a perfunctory
   explanation of the hangar facilities, I was led forward, detouring
   through the somewhat smaller (20td) cargo hold, into the working areas
   of the ship, on the lower deck.
   
   The lower deck is laid out in a rather simple manner; right aft is the
   hangar, which connects to the cargo hold as well as to the central
   engineering area. A rather nice touch in the hangar area is the large
   and luxuriously appointed passenger grav shaft leading directly up to
   the main corridor on the passenger deck; this permits passengers to
   disembark in style and proceed to the passenger areas without having
   to tour through the working areas of the ship.
   
   Forward of the cargo bay lies the engineering spaces; the J-3 Famille
   Spofulams Subsystems Jump Drive hulks immaculately in the center in a
   large compartment, where the two engineering workstations are
   situated. Access hatches to the spaces containing the twin 10,000
   ton-rated Spofulam Gravitics maneuver drives (mounted aft, outboard of
   the vertical stabilizers) are situated at the rear of the jump drive
   compartment. Likewise, access hatches for the 600Mw Zhunastu Fusion
   Systems power plant (to portside of the jump drive compartment), and
   purification plant (to starboard of the jump drive compartment)
   radiate from the jump drive compartment.
   
   Forward of the jump drive compartment is an access hatch leading to a
   compartment holding a grav shaft to the passenger areas, and
   connecting to the sickbay and 5-workstation bridge. From here on,
   Ghohltyeh's hand became evident; the decor changed from workmanlike
   Spofulam engineering-area industrial chic to Restoration-style
   splendour; the sickbay is as much of a work of the desinger's creative
   mind as it is one of medical engineering. Like the sickbay, the bridge
   has Lartsa-wood panelling on all non-instrument surfaces, and is laid
   out around a massive owner's chair, with power swivel, an endless
   range of adjustments, a refreshment center in one arm and a
   comm/computer panel in the other, and upholstered in what must have
   been the hides of the softest baby Noggahs.
   
   Returning to the grav shaft in the hangar, Mr Spofulam led me up to
   the passenger deck. The grav shaft opens up onto a
   luxuriously-appointed corridor leading forwards. Discreet panels at
   the aftermost end of the main corridor lead to the crew quarters and
   galley and stewarding areas. The accomodations are luxurious, even for
   the crew; all crew save gunners and the two junior stewards have large
   staterooms to themselves. While not up to the standard of accomodation
   of the passenger areas, not even the most work-to-rule member of the
   Spacers Guild could find anything to complain of here: the staterooms
   are all done in traditional Spofulam blond wood and indirect lighting.
   After a brief tour of the crew areas, which connect to engineering via
   twin grav shafts to port and starboard, I was led back into the main
   corridor and into the passenger areas.
   
   The double-width doors at the end of the corridor open inwards, to the
   tune of Famille Spofulam's corporate anthem, to reveal an immense
   (300M^3) oval lounge divided into dining, recreational, and lounging
   areas by artfully placed and shaped planters filled with a variety of
   Terran, Sylean, and Vilani vegetation. The Imelda's passenger areas
   are centered around this space: eight staterooms are provided for the
   comfort of the owner's guests, five of which are standard 4td large
   staterooms, and three of which FSY has termed "MegaStaterooms"; vast
   and opulent 150M^3 spaces containing every possible amenity.
   
   Even these are beggared by the master's stateroom, which at 216 M^3,
   or 15 displacement tons, is quite simply immense, with huge panoramic
   viewports set in the ceiling. The furnishings are of course quite
   spectacular; a large canopied bed, sunken coversation pit, immense wet
   bar carved from a simple lump of black jade, and amazingly, a
   fireplace crowned with an actual working ancient Terran "Lava Lamp",
   one of only four known to be in existence. However, these are all
   minor details compared to the Imelda's most noteworthy feature; 66M^3
   of the master's stateroom are taken up by what has to be the single
   most gigantic 'fresher ever installed on a private vessel, situated
   dead forwards. Resembling more a tropical greenhouse than it does a
   sanitation facility, it holds a hot tub, a sauna, and several large
   planters filled with a variety of Sylean, Terran, and Vilani tropical
   plants. Terran bats and parrots and other exotic flying life forms fly
   from plant to plant, their cries echoing pleasantly from the walls.
   Most remarkable, however, is the massive alabaster-and-Iridium toilet,
   situated at the very front of the vessel, facing huge panoramic
   windows dead forwards.
   
   FSY expects to begin semi-custom production of the Imelda-class early
   next year, at the rate of "one or two" a year.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1674
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1675



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: M:E21
E21 Nations
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: M:E21
Re: Pocket Empires bug
An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
The Control of Quality
GDW-Beta and TravLang
M:2300 ( was Re : M:E21 )
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level
Auction Update #14: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:24:47 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: M:E21

Robert Eaglestone writes:

>Marcus may be right, the Milieu may have to come right out and
>say what Earth's power structure is.

   You are certainly going to have to do more than hint at it, since
that's where most of the action is likely to take place.

>My opinion is that we should have fun with it and turn the status
>quo on its side.  So, without further ado, I present my own
>predictions list.
>
>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>
>Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
>- ----------------------------------------------------------
>China           500M            1.30
>India           700M            1.10
>USA             400M            0.90
>Indonesia       300M            0.70
>EU              250M            0.60
>Nigeria         200M            0.40
>Spanish SA      200M            0.35
>Japan           100M            0.30
>Korean Union    120M            0.30
>
>Corrections and additions, anyone?

   Several.  First my list of spacefaring nations:

United States of North America 
Note: This may or may not include Canada and Mexico, would probably
include more than fifty states.

Australia (formerly Australia, New Zealand)

East Asian Alliance (formerly China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Mongolia)
Note: More a result of Chinese immigration than an economic alliance.

Oceania (many Pacific islands including the Philipines, Indonesia,
Malaysia, Brunei)
Note: Formed in response to East Asian Alliance.

South Africa
Note: May include Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique.

West Africa Federation (from Nigeria northwest along the coast to
Mauritania)
Note: Led by Nigeria, formed in response to chaos in the interior.

Egypt

Israel
Note: Space provides Israel for an outlet to its sever population
pressures.

India

Arab Republic (Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Gulf
States)

Turkey

Russia

Kazakstan

Ukraine

European Union (current members, plus several more)
Note: May not include the UK--a lot depends on how the neo-Thatcherites
fare in the early 21st century.

Brazil

Argentina

Central America
Note: Led by Costa Rica and Panama.

Additional considerations: The above assumes that the cost of space
travel drops considerably by the mid-21st century.  Also, "space-faring"
can include everything from countries with a few token research craft
and a space station to countries that have a space merchant fleet and
the beginnings of a TL 9-10 space navy.

   Population-wise, as has been pointed out by others, population
figures should be much higher, unless of course a world war is factored
in that kills *large* numbers of people (most likely nuclear or
biological).

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:45:55 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: E21 Nations

>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations

>Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
>- ----------------------------------------------------------
>China		500M		1.30
>India		700M		1.10

The population drop has been mentioned elsewhere...nuff said, apart from
the fact that both nations will have a lot of trouble tackling endemic
corruption and religious/ethnic confict...India and Pakistan may well have
nuked each other into tatters as well...
>USA		400M		0.90

Fair 'nuff...the US has a lot of momentum and infrastructure on it's side

>Indonesia	300M		0.70

Politely disagree...Indonesia is a hotbed of ethnic and religious tensions,
looking for an excuse to explode into conflict.  (My opinion only)
Indonesia as an intact state may well not survive Suharto's death (with
fairly ghastly security implications for it's large, largely empty and
resource rich southern neighbour).

>EU		250M		0.60

Populalation may be a little low, tho' Europe (esp. Western Europe) has had
slightly negative growth rates for some time.  Does this include the former
WarPac states.

>Nigeria		200M		0.40

The next successful African nation (apart from _perhaps_ South Africa post
1993/4) will be the first...ethnic and tribal tensions have a nasty habit
of causing chaos, corruption and widespread famine.

>Spanish SA	200M		0.35

Possible...although I'd be tempted to go with just Brazil (isn't that a
former Portuguese colony?) and perhaps Argentina.

>Japan		100M		0.30

Pop a little low - I'd shoot for about 150M.  Lots of infrastructure.

>Korean Union	120M		0.30

After the generation it will no doubt take to rebuild the former North
Korea from the ground up.

Other possibilities/additions:

Russian Federation - c'mon, it wouldn't be the same without the
Russians...and who knows, their economy might even start growing again in
the next few years...I'd picture an authoritarian state, perhaps a military
dictatorship, but with a very strong free enterprise slant...Russia does
not have a tradition of democracy.

Islamic Confederation - take the former Soviet central Asian republics, add
Iran, perhaps Pakistan, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia...bind them in a very
loose confederation and see what happens...should be interesting (don't get
me wrong, I _like_ a lot of Islam's points - the lack of racism dictated by
the Koran for one, and it's tradition of hospitality and charity...don't
judge a religion by it's extremeists).

Or (flight of fancy)...the Pacific Rim Co-Prosperity Sphere:  China, Japan,
Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, a few other (less prosperous) S.E.
Asian nations, add Australia (you listening, Dr Mahathir?), Papua New
Guinea and New Zealand.  Huge population, land (and sea) area, resource
base, parts of the area have an extensive hi-technology
infrastructure...and a genuine multi-racial coalition. 

All my opinion only...food for thought...

 
Michael T. Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive", he said, "I think there's something wrong with me"
			Hunter S. Thompson - 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:48:20 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

SD Mooney writes:

>*Give it an overall flavour not unlike T2300 to make it distinct from M0
>and M1100. Nice and gritty.

   Agreed.  This is *not* the Imperium, and the background should
reflect that.

>*Most in system ships will be Heplar, and J-Drive will initially be used in
>system to reach outer worlds faster. In fact, Jump Drive should be given a
>specific name after someone, to preserve a different PoV. "Jump-Drive" only
>becomes the name popularised after it becomes common...

   How do we know that 'jump drive' isn't the name the Terrans came up
with?  If I remember the Traveller canon material correctly, there was
no one person responsible for its development.

>*Look at the way the various colonies in the solar system are developing
>unique divided cultures (I recommend the Red/Green/Blue Mars Trilogy by Kim
>Stanley Robinson for a good take on this) and how the encounter with the
>Vilani starts to stop the increasing factionalism.

   The canon material indicates that the Terrans had national fleets,
which implies that: a) military spacecraft exist  b) there has already
been actions between them.

>*Maybe even have different money systems (eco-economics) like the Mars
>books describe.

   It is quite possible that Terra is working toward a common currency
by this point.

>*Have Earth itself a real environmental mess suffering from global warming
>(as hinted at in S&A) and expansion a necessity to survive.

   <buzz!>  I'm sorry, wrong answer.  I'd much rather see an optimistic
tone taken with the environmental messages.  Recovery of the Amazon rain
forest, re-creation of certain species (giant pandas, etc.), etc.  Save
the grit for space!!!

>*Have the cities in a mess like Bladerunner but *not* cyberpunk.

   Archologies would start to appear about this time, but there would
still be considerable urban sprawl.

>* detail the Transnational corporations and friction between them and
>governments.

  Excellent idea.  The transnationals would almost constitute a shadow
government in some cases, a la S:AAB.

>*Reflect the arrogance within the culture assuming they are the most
>advanced and alone in space..

   I disagree here.  While that may be the propaganda used on the
masses, the "powers that be" have known since the 2040s that the Vilani
are out there.  This creates an atmosphere of in which the PCs are never
quite sure if they know the whole truth.  S:AAB did an excellent job of
presenting this kind of feel.

>And then you drop the Vilani on them.

   Remember that the Americans find the Vilani and then *quietly*
return, perhaps using the discovery of a habitable planet in the
Prometheus system as a bit of PR cover.  At first, no one would be sure
what to do, but they would also realize that the existence of the Vilani
could no longer be kept a secret.

>*Have interesting groups like 'Terrans for Peace!' agitating for the
>benefits of joining the Ziru Sirka.

   Maybe not joining the Ziru Sirka, but advocating the sending of
ambassadors to negotiate peaceful coexistence (as if that were
possible).  There will always be people like that around...

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:53:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: M:E21

>Also, not just because I'm patriotic, but Canada should be included
>as one of the spacefaring nations. Or by "spacefaring" do you mean
>nations that build/launch their own ships?

Same as that major/minor race thing. Canadians are a minor race if they
launch there stuff with the help of someone else ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:51:32 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires bug

>However, size of the units is based upon the sum of their offensive
>and defensive values! That means each ground unit takes up the same
>amount of space to transport no matter what the TL may be.
>
>The idea that the above squad of TL 15 troopers needs as much
>transport as the TL 6 multi-division group is quite ludicrous.
>
>Hopefully I misread this and there's a practical and easy fix to this
>bug...
>
>John Lansford

Maybe they're accounting for the CocaCola machines, movie theaters,
videogames, nautilus machines etc that any self respecting TL 15 unit
requires ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:44:20 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires

johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) commented about a "Pocket Empires bug":

>...Pocket Empires, especially Chapter 8 (War)...
>...The example is a TL 6 unit may be made up of thousands of men
>armed with rifles, while a TL 15 unit may be a squad of plasma cannon
>armed soldiers with combat armor.
>However, size of the units is based upon the sum of their offensive
>and defensive values!...
>...The idea that the above squad of TL 15 troopers needs as much
>transport as the TL 6 multi-division group is quite ludicrous.
>...Hopefully I misread this and there's a practical and easy fix to this
>bug...

It's not a "bug", it's a "feature", indeed an "opportunity". The factors
used in the War system are intentionally extremely vague, and thus in some
cases (as in the example you've picked) one has interpret the data
accordingly. There is no 'fix' for such situations, unless you want to model
in detail the precise ships, troops, etc. used. The whole point of the War
system was to avoid this level of detail, while still giving a reasonable
representation, so that the non-wargaming types could resolve the odd battle
without needing pages and pages of complicated combat statistics and rules.
Once could hand-wave and say the high tech guys need tons of equipment space
for all their technical support, etc., while the low tech troops are packed,
sardine-like, into as small a space as possible - perhaps the high tech
troops expect individual cabins with the latest entertainment equipment! :-)
I repeat, this is not a bug, but if you want to suggest alternative rules or
interpretations, then the TML is the place to do it! ;-)

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:57:53 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag

>Yes this is what I meant all along.  I meant when you jump in system you
>should be able to tell right away where masses were a little while ago.
>If your sensors are good enough this may include masses as small as
>those of a ship.

I suspect that mass detection of small ships even in TL 15 will be pretty
close range - nowhere near AU ranges. The enormous gravity wave from the
injumping ship though will be another matter. It could easily be detected
and triangulated in the entire system. I suspect that this is the main
reason fleets are able to detect one another and not simply pass through.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:07:52 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com> writes:

> You can generate low end X-ray lasers using cyclotron radiation 
> using the "Free Electron Laser", which I believe were investigated
> as part of SDI.

Can you say any more about how these work?

When I hear "free electron" I start thinking about the Fermi level of 
metals; can you use metal crystals as an X-ray laser cavity pumped 
with cyclotron radiation, lasing at the K-alpha frequency, or 
something?

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:37:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: FKiesche@aol.com
Subject: The Control of Quality

Greetings All:

Like Mr. Shock, I am concerned with how IG is running things.

Let's review some history:

Under the "old management" we had...

Core rules delayed and riddled with problems
Starships rushed into production, delayed, and riddled with problems...
M0 riddled with problems...
First Survey rushed into production (from my understanding), material left
out, and therefore riddled with problems...

Plus, JTAS delayed and riddled with problems...

And problems with shipping (quality of packaging), broken promises on speed
of shipping, and pre charging of credit cards when product was significantly
delayed past date of charge...

Then we got religion. Courtney came down from the mountain top and promised
us new wonders. Efficiency. Quality. Proofing.

Under the "new management" we have received...

PE with a missing table...
M0 reprint...delayed so far...were our requests for material to be corrected
ever put in? Who knows? Was the material missing from First Survey put in?
Who knows? Wait and see...
FFS2...apparently same old story--authors rushed to finish, company needs it
**now**! Product delayed in production, then looks like a rush job anyway
with typos and problems with the tables--the most important part of the book,
IMHO!
The Long Way Home/Gateway--a great one volume product turned into a two part
product with material duplication...haven't checked for errors yet!

And...

Will we see the rules reprint under the revised release date? Doubtful, I
say...

The new management doesn't seem that interested in quality control. They are
more interested in getting a lot of product out--maybe it's a "critical mass"
theory, throw enough stuff out the door and something will stick!

The new management doesn't seem interested in supporting things like
conventions.

The new management apparently can afford to hire a "customer service rep"
(i.e., telemarketer), but not real customer service/quality control
people...or even a proofreader!

If the management supported conventions by attending they could probably sell
all those t-shirts and mousepads they have sitting around by bringing them to
the conventions! After all, gamers go to conventions to buy products. They
could also be used in prizes sponsored by the company, etc.....

This company sucks. There, I've said it. I've been a Traveller player/ref
since 1977. GDW may have had problems, but they had great staff and great
customer service. They kept you informed. I never had a charge put on my
credit card before a product was ready to ship. If a product was delayed,
they kept you informed...in the days before electronic mail, they did a
better job of keeping us informed and getting out the message.

If there were errors, they kept track of corrections and sent them to you for
the price of a stamp. How many errors have we found in Starships and M0 and
First Survey? Are they up on the web page? Are they available for the asking
in e-mail or SSAE's? Funny how small game companies like The Gamers, Inc. and
GMT Games can do this...

Look at JTAS. Expensive. Thin. Delayed. Funny how a small company like The
Gamers, Inc. can put their company rag out on a timely basis...cheap, when
compared to JTAS...and filled with useful information. Overfilled with useful
information!

Maybe it is the summer doldrums again. Maybe I'll "get religion" again when I
see the reprinted core rules come out on time and hit my mailbox three days
after it ships, as promised. Maybe the rest of the products coming this year
will be error free.

I doubt it. Unless things change, I'm "picking up my ball and bat". I'll not
pre-order anything else (it isn't worth the trouble...just about every order
of mine has been at least slightly screwed up...and some have taken multiple
e-mails, multiple phone calls and multiple faxes to straighten out!). I may
not even buy any more through the stores! True, there isn't anything new
being published for CT, MT or TNE. But at least all the bugs have been worked
out and I don't have to worry about my credit card being charged or getting
irritating telephone calls with more broken promises.

In disgust...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)

(Marc: I've known you for a long time. I'm not the only one who is annoyed. I
love the game, but the company is driving me away This is a wake up call if I
ever heard one!)

(In typical TML message response, this will either be ignored or much
debated. It is not my intention to start a flame war. Please--it is not my
intention to start a flame war. But, I've been patient. You've been patient.
We love the game. We want it to succeed. Does the IG management want the
same?)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:45:25 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: GDW-Beta and TravLang

Hi All,

How do I subscribe to these mailing lists ?

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:45:26 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: M:2300 ( was Re : M:E21 )

Hi All,

Eris Reddoch wrote -

> Are you saying we should run a "Great Game" to plot the political,
> economic, military, and technological events of the next 100 years?  No=
w,
> where have I seen *that* before?  ;->

2300AD, perhaps ? =


BTW, the rules to the _original GDW Great Game_ for Twilight 2000 and
2300AD are on Steven Alexander's Great Game ][ web site at =


http://www.nicom.com/~artcraft/gg2.htm

which also has an economic model for the period 2302 in the 2300AD canon,=
and intends to develop the timeline for 2300AD from 2302 to about 2315
or so. This might be useful to all you PE fans out there.

(There's also a load of support material for 2300AD on my site, plus links
to other related sites ).

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:01:51 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) writes:

[Andy Brick:]

> >You can generate low end X-ray lasers using cyclotron radiation using the
> >"Free Electron Laser", which I believe were investigated as part of SDI.
> 
> There has to be a theoretical upper limit on efficiency way below 50% for
> free-electron "lasers" they generate the beam from "bremsstrahlung" but
> only the forward part of it adds constructively to the laserpulse - the
> rest is bled off.

Aha, OK, I know how these puppies are powered!

Electron bombardment of a metal gives off EM radiation in a continuum 
(bremsstrahlung, the "braking radiation" given off by the electrons 
as they decelerate) plus a few high-intensity peaks from the process

o incoming electron kicks out an electron from atom
o electron from continuum level "falls into hole" left by ejected 
  electron, generating X-ray photon.

This is a very good way of getting monochromatic (single frequency) 
X-ray radiation, but how do you use it to get a coherent (laser) beam?
Is it just a case of making an appropriate cavity?

I suppose you could use the strong emission lines (K-alpha etc.) to 
pump a laser at X-ray frequencies, but then you've got two lossy 
processes: generating the X-rays and pumping the laser.


> Those thinking that x-ray lasers and gamma lsers are much to hard to make
> efficient should note that we are comparing them to gravity focussed
> gizmos! How efficient can they be without breaking the soundbarrier through
> severe handwaving?

Quite.  And near-c handwaving is sufficient to power a small rock 8-)

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:45:27 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level

Hi All,

Garry Ward wrote -

> Yes. Stutter Warp is just an alternate application of the same principl=
es
> that produces Jump effects. Functional difference is that Stutter Warp
> requires a stop after approximate 2 parsecs, where jump limits at 6. =


Not quite as I understand it. Stutterwarp is a scaled up version of
electron
tunnelling, with jumps hundreds of metres long repeated hundreds of
thousands of times per second. Jump drive on the other hand is
passage into another dimension ( "jumpspace" ) for a fixed duration.
Stutterwarp does not require interdimensional gateways, and the ship
is in normal space whilst in flight. You can shut down a stutterwarp =

on a dime, but you can't leave jumpspace early. Ships using
stutterwarp can take part in sublight combat actions etc, whereas ships i=
n =

jumpspace are prevented from interacting with anything in the normal
universe until they return to it.

> And both are predicated on an understanding of gravity; basic gravitics=

> gives you thruster plates, jump drives and stutter warp. You may not be=

able
> to make the gravitic control small enough to stick under someone's car;=

but
> you can shift a 100+ dt ship about a start system with it.

Gravitic theory may give you thruster plates, but it has little or anythi=
ng
to do
with Stutter or Jump Drives - the technology fields in FF&S1 make FTL and=
 =

Gravitics quite distinct. Gravitational fields do adversely affect
Stutterwarp =

performance and Jump drive field generation, true, but they are not =

important to the actual function of the drive unit itself.

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:07:12 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #14: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Rules:   Update 8/12/97  -  07:00 EDT         

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) gone

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        
GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        Buyout - $40.00 - gone
        
GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $45.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $40.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $38.00 cgriffen@cisco.com 
        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com 
                        
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/8) going x1
        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com 
        
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu gone

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net gone

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $10.00 BFireforge@aol.com (8/11)
        $ 8.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de 
        $ 6.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
        $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net 
        
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
               
TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $17.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/9) going x1
        $16.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com gone

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
      
TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $15.00 BFireforge@aol.com (8/11)
        $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de 
        $10.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
        

Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7) gone
               
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x1
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 4.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/10) going x1
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net 

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x1
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x1
        $ 7.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x1
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
       
GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $20.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $17.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $16.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com 
                
GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $11.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
        $10.00 egc@northnet.org 
                        
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
        
GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
     
GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net gone

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $15.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/11)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1675
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1676



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

I'm back, sensor rules, and list splits
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1671
Re: Fencing style
Re: X-boat list
Re: Fencing style

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 05:31:41 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: I'm back, sensor rules, and list splits

Greetings.. thanks to all of you who sent me and Kirsten supporting
messages during the last week.  I am now out of the hospital (and slightly
radioactive) and looking forward to getting back into the swing of things.

First off, I'd like to add my kudos to the new sensor rules; these are just
what we needed and will add a great deal of realism to space combat.
Bruce, I encourage you to sell these to JTAS or for an IG product.

The list split issue.  I am firmly against any list split that isn't for a
single concern sub-list (ala TravLang or the TNE folk.)  I use CORPS to run
a classic era campaign.. should I demand my own list?  I get to much good
information from everyone on all topics to afford losing someone; and since
my experience with X-Boat was that it was mostly cross-posts I'd avoid
subbing to any new list.

Sorry if I made no sense here, but the meds are still wearing off...
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:35:50
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1671

>
>(*Can* one build reasonable grav tanks without Fusion+?  I'd think
>TL 9 fusion plants would be too large...)
>
>Nick

Under FFS2/TTA rules, you can build a truly evil grav tank at TL9.
1 m^3 of contragrav lifters gives you 3333 kN. Power it with
fission, fuel cells or batteries.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:23:19 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Fencing style

Leonard Erickson writes:
>The big difference in their rules is the rather than the *challenger*
>getting to pick weapons, etc, 

In most duelling conventions I've heard of the *challenged* party choses
weapons.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:54:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: X-boat list

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 	There is of course room for improvement, large and small in T4, and 
>if something bothers you that much, just throw it out and use what you want. 

This point is made every so often by those defending a more casual attitude
to previously published material and every time I find it more difficult to
respond in a civilized manner to it. But here goes, for the umpteenth time:

Of course we are all at liberty to take what we want and throw out what we 
don't want. That is so obvious a truth that I really think it goes without
saying (ought to, anyway ;-). It is also completely and utterly besides the
point. The point is how much of any new material can we use and how much do
we have to throw away? The more the new material deviates from what I have
established in my campaign, the less I can use it and the more work I have
to do to fit it into my campaign. Work that I would much rather spend doing
campaign-specific material. If the work involved in getting a given module
to work for me exceeds the work of doing it myself from scratch then there's
no real reason why I should buy it. And if I buy something expecting it to
fit easily and find that it does not, then I _do_ have a legitimate beef.
IG has the legal right to publish a set of heroic fantasy rules under the
'Traveller' trademark, but I daresay you'd feel a tiny bit put out if you
came home with your shrink-wrapped "TRAVELLER: The New Rules" and found out
it was about swords and sorcery in the Imperium on the mysterious planet Arth.
Well, that's the way some of us reacts when we buy something we thought was
based on the old Traveller background and find out it is not.

Frankly, I'd really like a definite answer from Marc Miller to the following
question:

"Is T4 supposed to be based on the CT, MT, and TNE background, or are you
creating something new, merely mining the old background for ideas?"


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:16:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Fencing style

> 
> Traveller-digest      Monday, August 11 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1671
> 
> 
> 
> (R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
> All rights reserved.
> 
> The following topics are covered in this digest:
> 
> Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
> Re: Looking for Gvurrdon Sector Info
> Re: [T97#1665] Gvurrdon Sector
> Re: Cities In Flight
> Re: Cities in Flight
> Re: [T97#1632] Fencing Styles
> Re: Dres Blades as weapons
> Re: WSV suit question
> Re: The Interstellar Wars
> Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
> Re: Disintegrators
> Re: X-Boat List
> Warp Drive
> re: new list/old list
> Traveller-digest V1997 #1667 -Reply
> Re: X-Boat List 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:04:18 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Peter Newman wrote:
> >
> >> On the other hand you may be able to detect their _mass_ right away
> >> based on the gravitational effect.  Maybe as a further refinement ships
> >> with can detect ships instantly at long distances only if they have the
> >> right sensors.  I don't have FFS2 yet, what, if anything, does it have
> >> that would include gravitometric sensing capability ?  Maybe these would
> >> require a whole new type of signature - the Mass Signature- dependent
> >> soley on the targets mass.
> >
> > On the other other hand, according to special relativity gravity
> > propagates at the speed of light.
> 
> But the ship's gravity has *always* been radiating out from it. So a
> ship jumping into system *can* detect it immediately (if it can detect
> it at all). It's no different than being able to see the star
> immediately. You are observing photons that left the star some time
> ago. 
> 
> > However, until we are able to detect gravity waves from a nearby
> > supernova or somesuch, the speed of gravity hasn't been actually
> > measured...
> 
> But detecting *mass* is *not* the same as detecting gravity waves. In
> the first case you are detecting a steady field. In the second, you
> are detecting the way the field *varies*. Much like the difference
> between detecting a charge or a magnetic field, and detecting
> electromagnetic radiation. You can't even use the same sort of sensors!
> 
> Geologists use mass detectors all the time. But gravity wave sensors
> are quite different and far cruder.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:13:56 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Looking for Gvurrdon Sector Info
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I'm looking for Gvurrdon Sector info.  My players don't know it yet, 
> > but they are about to go trans-Imperial.
> >
> > Does anybody know of a Gvurrdon map produced by DGP in a mag or other 
> > product?
> 
> Alien Module 3 Vargr, has a player's map of the sector, a referree's
> map and a full world listing.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:12:42 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: [T97#1665] Gvurrdon Sector
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I don't know whether the star map matches, but in _GDW_'s _Alien_
> > _Module_3:_Vargr_, there was complete CT-style information (No
> > PBG or stellar) for Gvurrdon sector, in the back, as part of the
> > information included for the adventure "Gvurrdon's Story".
> 
> It *does* have stellar info, as well as PBG. 
> 
> Typical entry:
> 
> 0104 C8A8100-8  Z  Lo Nin              501Zh M4 V M4 D
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:56:55 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Cities In Flight
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I stumbled across the James Blish novel, "Cities In Flight," in a bookstore
> > the other day. For those of you who have already read it, is this book
> > applicable for background info for Trav, i.e. how things work etc. If so,
> > I'll move it up on my "to read" list.
> 
> Actually, "Cities in Flight" is an omnibus edition of *four* novels.
> But it's not Traveller. The drive used propels you FTL thru real space.
> And it also works better with higher mass ships. So the title is
> *real*. They are *literally* flying cities around. In fact, at one
> point, they are flying a *planet*.
> 
> They also have FTL radio. Which is another thing that prevents the
> background from being Traveller.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:20:42 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Cities in Flight
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >         Read it.  It`s the source of such Traveller ideas as TDK
> > explosives, black/white globes and such.  While it isn`t
> > Travelleresque I found it very enjoyable.
> 
> "Cities in Flight" is the source for TDK and anagathics. Jerry
> Pournelle's CoDominium/Empire universe is the source of black globes
> (Langston Field) and white globes (Motie modified Langston Field). E.C.
> Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series is the source of slow drug, fast
> drug, and high, middle and low passages, as well as the low passage
> lottery. 
> 
> Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
> Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
> The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
> Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.
> 
> You could do *far* worse than dig up such of Norton's SF as you can
> locate and use it for ideas. It fits the Traveller universe quite well,
> except that in her stories hyperdrive travel of any distance is
> performed in one "jump", and it's possible to exit jump in the middle.
> Duration seems to vary with distance. But that's a minor consideration
> given the richness of her worlds.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:53:48 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: [T97#1632] Fencing Styles
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I seem to recall reading one story (H. Beam Piper paratime
> > story?) where the rules were somewhat more flexible - in one
> > scene, the terms were "twenty rounds, twenty meters, fire at will
> > after the signal".  Our Hero needed one shot to win.  I would
> > suggest that you can modify rules, customs, protocols, et cetera
> > to suit the needs of your campaign.
> 
> For that matter, in E.E. Smith's Lensman books, we get to see a duel in
> Boskonian society (the bad guys). In D&D terms this is a *very* "lawful
> evil" culture. In traveller terms, it's high law level, but not nice.
> 
> The big difference in their rules is the rather than the *challenger*
> getting to pick weapons, etc, the higher ranking person does! Status is
> everything...
> 
> That could be a rude shock for a player on some world out in the
> boonies. :-)
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:06:58 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Dres Blades as weapons
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > As for efficacy of a dull blade, back in high school, my frend and  NJROTC
> > Cadet CO nearly lost an ear due to an accident with a MODERN dress sworn,
> > US Navy Officer standard issue pattern... He went from "Carry" (back of
> > blade resting upon shoulder) to "reverse carry" (an exhibition manoever
> > where the blade front is lightly held against the back of the shoulder),
> > overextending, and lopping his ear off... save for about 5mm at the front
> > of the ear. 25 stitches later, he's now a US Coast guard officer, with an
> > interesting (but hard to notice) scar. The blade was as sharp as the BACK
> > edge of a table knife, ie, 1mm wide, rounded, and smooth.
> 
> Another oft overlooked detail is that an "edge" with a quite wide
> "angle" can still be very sharp and if "drawn" across something can cut
> quite well. I have a nice scar on two finger from being careless while
> cleaning a lapping machine. I got cut againt the *right angle* at the
> edge of one of the plates. This is a cylindrical chunk of steel about
> four feet in diameter and several inches thick.
> 
> Who'd have thought a 90 degree edge could cut? :-(
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:16:25 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: WSV suit question
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
> >
> >> I have a questionon the visual suits that a character can have with him.
> >> 
> >> Let's talk about the WSV suit which have most of the visual improovement
> >> such device can have.
> >> 
> >> So WSV is a passive IR to UV viewer suite
> >> 
> >> I both UV and IR uses false color to make the image visible to wearer but I
> >> was wondering what the guy can see in different wavelength during
> >> day/night/obscurity
> >
> > I expect that _all_ the various wavelengths will be false colored to modes
> > similar to what we see in daylight, since that's where we resolve objects
> > best, so no 'negative' IR images, no 'green' light intensifiers (which
> > will probably be wide spectrum by that time, anyway).
> 
> The "negative" appearance black&white IR sensor displays is just due to
> our prejudices about what things should look like. Color IR looks just
> as "different" (for example, vegetation winds up *red*).
> 
> If you use black & white IR, the lighter the color, the hotter the
> object is. If you use color IR, red is cool, blue is hot, green is in
> the middle.
> 
> > As for seeing through walls with IR, that would likely be possible,
> > depending on the wlls thickness. Certainly, through a thin wall, with some
> > observation time, you could determine who was in there.
> 
> If you want to see through walls that are much like current house and
> building walls, use millimeter band radar. This is already being tested
> both for airport security and for covert surveilance.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:10:29 +0100
> From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars
> 
> bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
> 
> > One technological issue to give the E21 milleu it's own distinct flavour:
> > no contra-grav. Earth is basically TL9 at this time, but we could assume
> > that contra-grav is "late" TL9 and that Earth doesn't discover it until the
> > end of the period - possibly even never discovers it independently and copies
> > it from the Vilani. This makes for lots of fun things - aircraft and helicopters
> > rather than grav vehicles, large spacecraft are incapable of landing on planets
> > and you need to use shuttles, ground-to-orbit is very expensive, etc.
> 
> I must admit, I like the idea.  (Based on the couple of episodes of 
> Space: Above and Beyond I saw, the feel might well be similar: clunky 
> Terran tech and enemy grav tanks, energy weapons etc.)
> 
> However... the point is made somewhere canonical (AM6 or MT I'd 
> guess) that the reason Terrans took so long to develop fusion power 
> is that they persisted in using EM fields to contain the reaction.  
> Once they developed gravitic containment, fusion power became viable.
> In other words, something very similar to contragrav is available in 
> the E2100 era.
> 
> Of course, the technology would take a while to supplant existing 
> military gear; this could be a factor creating a state of 
> over-armament and military tension as major powers requip with new 
> fusion/grav powered vehicles and sell their old equipment to client 
> states.
> 
> (*Can* one build reasonable grav tanks without Fusion+?  I'd think
> TL 9 fusion plants would be too large...)
> 
> Nick
> Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
> Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:45:38 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: FF&S1 TL-9 Spaceplane (rocket scientist needed!)
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >
> >         While some people bash out future histories, I seem to obsess about
> > gear.  Inspired by the thread on ME21, I decided to design a TL-9 HOTLHL
> > space-plane (I used FF&S1 since I only had an early playtest draft of
> > =46F&S2).  Stats follow.  I also have a question: nowhere can I figure out
> > what velocity is required to attain, say, high Earth Orbit.  I know that
> > escape velocity for Earth is somewhat over 11 km/sec, but if I understand
> > correctly you wouldn't need to reach that velocity to reach orbit.
> 
> >From part 4 of the sci.space FAQ:
> 
> 	For circular Keplerian orbits where:
> 	    Vc	 = velocity of a circular orbit
> 	    Vesc = escape velocity
> 	    M	 = Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
> 	    G	 = Gravitational constant (defined below)
> 	    u	 = G * M (can be measured much more accurately than G or M)
> 	    K	 = -G * M / 2 / a
> 	    r	 = radius of orbit (measured from center of mass of system)
> 	    V	 = orbital velocity
> 	    P	 = orbital period
> 	    a	 = semimajor axis of orbit
> 
> 	    Vc	 = sqrt(M * G / r)
> 	    Vesc = sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
> 	    V^2  = u/a
> 	    P	 = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
> 	    K	 = 1/2 V**2 - G * M / r (conservation of energy)
> 
> 	    The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
> 	       of a circular orbit with the same semi-major axis.
> 
> 	Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
> 	circular orbit:
> 
> 	    delta V = 2 sqrt(GM/r) sin (phi/2)
> 
> 	Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit (ignores rotational
> 	velocity, which reduces the energy a bit).
> 
> 	    GMm (1/Re - 1/2Rcirc)
> 	    Re = radius of the earth
> 	    Rcirc = radius of the circular orbit.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:54:48 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Disintegrators
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Hi Leonard!
> >
> >> > in a body becominging fissionable and unstable and supercritical in
> >> > a nanosecond.
> >
> >> Not really.
> >> 
> >> Consider, the effect is to turn the nucleus into free protons and
> >> neutrons. The neutrons have a half-life of 17 minutes, so their decay
> >> is going to be messy, but not a "bang". The protons are stable (ie you
> >> get hydrogen).
> >> 
> >> The energy of a bunch of hydrogen and free neutrons is *higher* than
> >> that of any remotely stable nucleus. So the breakup will *consume*
> >> energy, not liberate it!
> >> 
> >> You'll get some explosive effects from the (effective) high pressure of
> >> the hydrogen (being crammed together so tightly), and the decay of the
> >> neutrons will release a lot of beta radiation, which will wind up as
> >> heat.
> >
> > I don't know if you are considering the binding energy of the 
> > affected nucleons.
> 
> I *am*. For any nucleus lighter than Fe56, the binding energy curve is
> such that fissioning the nucleus *uses* energy, rather than produces
> it. That's why you can get energy by *fusing* them. The new combination
> has *less* binding energy than the old one.
> 
> Nuclei heavier than Fe56 will produce energy when fissioned. And Fe56
> is the most stable configuration. Again, the new configuration has less
> binding energy than the old one.
> 
> Remember, binding energy shows up as "missing mass". So by breaking a
> nucleus down into protons and neutrons, you'll *only* produce energy if
> the mass of that many free protons and neutrons exceeds the mass of the
> nucleus you started with. And for anything up to Fe56 that's *not* true.
> 
> I also suspect that it may not be true of at least some heavier nuclei.
> That is, breaking them up into smaller nuclei may release energy, but
> not breaking them all the way down into individual nucleons. I don't
> have a CRC handbook handy, so I can't check a table of isotopes.
> 
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:22:40 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Re: X-Boat List
> 
> >I would like to find out how many people here would be interested in X-Boat
> >type list coming back into being.
> >
> >What I mean is a mailing list for those that have an interest in or playing
> >a Classic Traveller or MegaTraveller games. Such a list would be for
> >discussion the same ie Classic Traveller and MegaTraveller topics.
> >
> >Until A Later Reality Then...
> 
> As I play in CT/MT era and find T4 buggy albeit improving I'll join such a
> list as well.
> As for the statement that Traveller will die if T4 fails seems a bit
> strange. I've been playing Traveller more or less weekly for lots of years
> now without ever using TNE/T4 material. Shure - T4 as a commercial thing
> will die but that's hardly a problem for us. I've got CT/MT material to use
> that will keep me going way off into the next millenium not to mention the
> ability to write my own stuff as well.
> 
> It's a bit like saying that Christianity will die unless someone comes out
> with some new chapters for the bible (now that's an idea...).
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:23:23 +0100
> From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
> Subject: Warp Drive
> 
> I haven't seen this reported here on TML, so:
> 
> Two researchers at Tufts University, Medford, Mass., have estimated 
> the energy required to sustain a warp drive like the one proposed by 
> Alcubierre.  It's about 10 billion times the mass-energy of the 
> visible mass of the universe...
> 
> The assumptions made are strictly correct only in non-warped space, 
> but the indications aren't hopeful for FTL-lovers.  Alcubierre is 
> quoted as saying "I always thought the amount of energy needed would 
> be ridiculous.  I did the research really as a proof of concept."
> 
> Report: New Scientist, 26 July 1997, p6
> Research: Classical and Quantum Gravity, 14 (1997) 1743
> 
> 
> Nick
> Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
> Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:31:19 +0100
> From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
> Subject: re: new list/old list
> 
> Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote:
> 
> >I don't think that there will be a exodus from TML, but I have been wrong
> >many times before.<G> I am currently on the TML, GDW-Beta, and TNE-RCES
> >list,
> 
> You mean you're *not* on TravLang???  ;-)
> 
> 
> > I think that a lot of the TMLer's will do similar things. On such a
> >list suggestions for CT/MT can be freely exchanged with out *wasting
> >bandwidth* for the non CT/MT persons.
> 
> 
> The snag I see with this is that suggestions for CT/MT are hugely useful
> for T4 supporters and I'd have thought I fair bit is useful from T4 for the
> 'old guard'.  I would hate to have to subscribe to two lists, essentially
> discussing the same things.  I foresee a whole lot of cross posting and
> thus more *wasting* of bandwidth for those on both lists.
> 
> I'm sure there will be folk who feel the need to subscribe to both if
> there's another split.  Someone, please make this spectre go away.
> 
> <runs off and buries head in the sand>
> 
> 
> tc
> "Alright, so I'm Mister
> Completely-unable-to-bear-the-prospect-of-a-list-split-or-a-heated-and-endl
> ess-discussion-about-a-list-split."
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 07:33:53 -0400
> From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
> Subject: Traveller-digest V1997 #1667 -Reply
> 
> Rules:   Update 8/11/97  -  07:00 EDT         
> 
> Please note that some of the items are now gone.  If you are still bidding
> on other items, we should wait for there outcome before determining
> postage costs.  If you have no other items, please contact me so I can
> determine postage (at this point US Priority Mail for 48 states).
> 
> 1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
> increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.
> 
> 2. Buyout offers will be considered.
> 
> 3. Buyer pays shipping.
> 
> 4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
> hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
> checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.
> 
> 5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 
> 
> 6. This auction will be updated every day.
> 
> 7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
> the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
> the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.
> 
> 8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.
> 
> 9. The following conditions will be used:   
>     (MN) Item is perfect.
>     (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
>     (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
>     (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
>          all counters are present.
>     Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  
> 
> Traveller Related Items
> DGP     101 Vehicles                              
>         $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) going x2
> 
> DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
>         Buyout - $12.00 - gone
> 
> DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
>         $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
>         $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
>         $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net     
> 
> GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
>         does not have the tech manual or combat
>         chart)
>         Buyout - $40.00 - gone
>         
> GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
>         marks and is slightly pushed in)
>         $38.00 cgriffen@cisco.com (8/7) going x2
>         $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com 
>         $34.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>                 
> Judge's 
> Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
>         $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/8)
>         $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com 
>         
> Judge's 
> Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
>         $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu gone
> 
> Martian 
> Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
>         mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
>         types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
>         Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
>         variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
>         Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
>         and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
>         total of 228 painted figures.)
>         Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
>         
> 
> AD&D Related Items                                Co     
> TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
>         $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net gone
> 
> TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
>         $ 8.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7) going x2
>         $ 6.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
>         $ 4.00 jhascher@gte.net 
>         
> TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
>         $12.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
>         $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
>         $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
>         $10.00 astinus@juno.com
>         $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
>         
> TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
>         $17.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/9)
>         $16.00 tarquin@ro.com 
>         $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
>         $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
>         $11.00 lazascan@aol.com
> 
> TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
> TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00
> 
> TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
>         $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com gone
> 
> TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
> 
> TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
>         $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
>         $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 
> 
> TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00
> 
> TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00
> 
> TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
>         $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/7) going x2
>         $10.00 BFireforge!aol.com 
>         
> 
> Space 1889 Related Items
> GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
>         $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7) going x2
>         $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
>         $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>         
> GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
>         $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
>         $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>         
> GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
>         $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
>         $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>         
> GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
>         $ 4.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/10)
>         $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net 
> 
> GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
>         $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
>         $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
>         $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>         $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>         
> GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
>         $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
>         $ 7.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
>         $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>         
> GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
>         figures)
>         $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz (8/8)
>         $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
>         $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
>         $ 8.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
>                 
> GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
>         $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8)
>         $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>         $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>         $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>         $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
> 
> GDW     Referee's Screen                          
>         $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
>         $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>         $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net
> 
> GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
>         copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
>         $16.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/11)
>         $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com 
>         $13.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
>         $12.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>         $10.00 dmoody@bridge.com
>         $10.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>         $10.00 jlong@wilmington.net
> 
> GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
>         $11.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/11)
>         $10.00 egc@northnet.org 
>         $ 9.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
>         $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
>         $ 8.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net 
>                 
> GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
>         $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
>         $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net
> 
> GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
>         $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
>         $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
> 
> GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
>         $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net gone
> 
> GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
>         unpainted figures)
>         $15.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/11)
>         $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
>         $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
>         $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>         $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
>         
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:03:44 MET
> From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
> Subject: Re: X-Boat List 
> 
> I wouldn't want another list:
> * Too many Crossposts
> * Adventureideas easily transferable between milieux are lost to some 
> if only posted to one list.
> 
> Ad Astra,
> V.A.G.       
> - ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
> - -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
> - ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
> - ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
> 
> - -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1671
> ***********************************
> 
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1676
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1677



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Milieu 21C
US Military
Solomani
Re: M:E21
E21 Major/Minor races
Hand waving
Re: M:E21 
Re: US Military
Re: Milieu 21C
Re : Grav focussed lasers
QND House Rules : Hacking, revision 1
Re: X-Boat List
Re: Laser Whomp
Re: Hand waving
M:E21 Countries, revision 1
Re: Solomani

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:27:33 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Milieu 21C

The numbers should be closer to 

Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
 China	1600M		0.2
 India		1800M		0.1
 USA		300M		1
 Indonesia	500M		0.15
 EU		300M		1.2
 Nigeria	500M		0.05
 Spanish SA	400M		0.75
 Japan		130M		1.1
 Korean Union	180M		0.95
For those anti-anericans, anti-west people out there, The USA has a current
GNP on the area of 83 times China. The numbers indicate a LOT of levelling.
All of this assumes that there is not an anti-technology backlash.
>>

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com) spaketh

China could occupy Siberia and that would give them the resource base with
which to build a self-sustaining "modern" infrastructure.

Methinks the Russians would have a little to say about China going after
Siberia. They may be out of it now, but please try to remember these are the
same people who took millions of dead in WWI, about 25 million dead from
Stalin then another 15-20 million from Nazi Germany, then went on to be a
superpower. They are not dead, just resting. If you wannna see em back,
invade them, that'll provoke em

India is in a more precarious position due to several factors.  The caste
system stratifies Hindu culture to such an extent that educating the
1.25billion plus citizens that would be more likely by the Milieu E21
setting
would be a phenomenally daunting task.  

Perhaps a more realistic future would be "sputter, sputter, collapse,
sputter, sputter, violent uprising"

Oh well, my .02Cr or should that be rupiah?
No, Rupee

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:32:55 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: US Military

Still catching up with my mail, but I couldn't resist this one...

>In the Marines, the officers and enlisted are the first to hit the beach.  
>In the Army, the officers and enlisted hold onto whatever the Marines have
>conquered (excuse me, I meant to say "secured" :-). 

And which USMC units were involved in in Overlord?
 
>In the Navy, the officers and enlisted are aboard ship offshore, within
>range of combat.

In all fairness to the Navy (and after watching the Discovery Channel's
show about the Forrestal fire), squids face more danger than most grunts do
on a day to day basis.. If I get hit, I fall down and bleed a lot.. a ship
gets hit, and it's a long ride to the bottom for a lot of young guys (and
women these days.)  I may rag on the Navy, but I wouldn't want their jobs
for the world.  

> In the Air Force, the enlisted escort the officers to the planes, salute
>smartly as the officers take off to fly to the combat zone, and return to
>the NCO Club to "guard the base."  

Heh.  Reminds me of the time we were getting in a C-130.. This AF-type was
lording over us about his cushy job, easy hours, etc.. until one of my
buddies showed him a Stinger SAM and told him that it could blow the wing
off his Herc from miles away, and we were the ones wearing parachutes and
equipped to survive in the field.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:18:54 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Solomani

Franklin W. Cain wrote:

>> Yes and I have always found it strange that more Traveller players are
>> not more sympathetic towards the Solomani.  After all, almost all
>> Traveller players are 100% Solomani.                   ^^^^^^^^^^

>"Almost all"?  

>"*ALMOST* all"?...  

>If you've got proof that this should be "almost all" instead of just plain
>"all," then the tabloids should be offering you extreme amounts of
money!... > :-) 

In the last week I have discovered that my blood doesn't respond to normal
clotting agents, I have almost no detectable blood pressure at rest, I have
an unexplainable wave in my EEG, I am a bone marrow match with less than
.01% of the world's population, and that I have managed to regenerate a
major organ that was surgically removed.

We are here, we come in peace, and when a bug-free edition of Traveller is
released you will be welcomed into the cosmos.

Doug "Azhanti High Spleen" Berry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:50:07 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:
> 
> > Also, not just because I'm patriotic, but Canada should be included
> > as one of the spacefaring nations. Or by "spacefaring" do you mean
> > nations that build/launch their own ships?
> 
> Maple leaf land built a nice arm on the Space Shuttle..thats kinda
> spacefaring:)

We also have our own satellites in space. Also, there's a Canadian
in space right now on the Shuttle.

Perhaps the definition of spacefaring, like the definition of major
race, depends upon your point of view.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:06:28 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: E21 Major/Minor races

Late 20th C "Major Races"

USA
France
Russia
China

You will, of course, note that Germany and Japan are Minor races. (HA! in a
pig's eye they are) The Aslan syndrome seems to be in effect.

Mounting Soapbox...And stating an opinion (note that last word)

BTW, the overall environmental situation is improving. We are still on a
curve down due to momentum, (other than inexplicable oriental decimation of
bears for their bladders, tigers for paws etc), the number of species on
endangered lists is decreasing. As far as Global warming, it is a THEORY,
not a fact. For everyone that screams MELTING ICE CAPS, another yells
GLACIERS. Our biggest environmental problem for the forseeable future will
be human habitation (and there, primarily in the Third World)

The biggest problem humanity faces is ourselves. Namely, increasing
religious fanaticism, cut-throat capitalism, a lack of hope, and a strong
tendency in humanity to follow dictators. 

On a personal note, I think once we get the mass of idiots collectively
known as the human race past the millenium  (thus showing them that no great
apocalypse is going to strike) I think we are going to be okay. (I am a
fervently democratic and humanist, but that does not preclude the fact that
the mass of the human race are idiots)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:10:09 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Hand waving

I have heard this phrase many times, here and on other lists....what in
hoppin' hell does it mean?

Just Curious

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:22:44 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21 

I think this mileu is one of the more exciting topics that has come up on
the TML in a long time and THIS is why I read this list, not for endless
argument on rules and whining about same.

As for the political structure of Earth, is not possible to see more
fragmentation of the nation-states we know today.  It would seem to me that
this is the dominant trend.  I've noticed that most of the suggestions tend
to be the same nations we know now or the super-states ( such as the EU or
the Asian sphere ).  

Is it not more likely to see a great deal of nationalism ( or more likely "
localism " or ethnicism  ) when it becomes apparent that space travel is
now cheaper?  Would it not be more likely that each mini-state or ethnic
group would want to get into space without necessarily the others?  I'm
thinking Croats vs Serbs, Irish vs. English, etc.  Is it not likely that
there will be LOTS of players in the " final frontier " ?

Just some thoughts

John






It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: US Military

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >In the Marines, the officers and enlisted are the first to hit the beach.  
> >In the Army, the officers and enlisted hold onto whatever the Marines have
> >conquered (excuse me, I meant to say "secured" :-). 
> 
> And which USMC units were involved in in Overlord?
>  

In all fairness to both services, the Army did the dirty work in Europe,
but the Marines got the Pacific.  Personally, I think it's a toss up on
which would have been worse...Omaha Beach or Okinawa.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:36:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Milieu 21C

In a message dated 97-08-12 11:28:57 EDT, Glenn Crawford wrote:

<< 
 Oh well, my .02Cr or should that be rupiah?
 No, Rupee
  >>

Actually, I was hinting at my desire to see the possibilities of Indonesia
and Australia "merging".  The rupiah is the form of currency used in
Indonesia.  The resulting confederation/alliance would be extremely powerful
and control several of the most important seaways in the world.  A further
alliance with Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, and the Phillippines would ensure
that the resulting "nation" would be one of the most powerful in the world.
Mt. Wilson on Papua New Guinea is on the order of 15,000ft in elevation
providing the perfect launching area whilst being in close proximity to the
equator.

I love this E21 Milieu.  Keep the suggestion coming!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:55:04 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re : Grav focussed lasers

Hi All,

Nick Munn writes :-

> Can you say any more about how these work?

Free Electron lasers work by firing electrons through a series
of magnetic fields. As the electrons are deflected from their
paths, they can be made to emit photons. You can "tune" the
emissions by varying the deflection.

> When I hear "free electron" I start thinking about the Fermi level of =

> metals; can you use metal crystals as an X-ray laser cavity pumped =

> with cyclotron radiation, lasing at the K-alpha frequency, or =

> something?

I don't think that this is anything to do with FELs, but I might
be wrong.

> Aha, OK, I know how these puppies are powered!
> Electron bombardment of a metal gives off EM radiation in a continuum =

> (bremsstrahlung, the "braking radiation" given off by the electrons =

> as they decelerate) plus a few high-intensity peaks from the process
> o incoming electron kicks out an electron from atom
> o electron from continuum level "falls into hole" left by ejected =

>   electron, generating X-ray photon.

I don't recall reading anything about bombarding anything with the
electron beam. I thought it was just EM emission from electrons in
a strong magnetic field - isn't this synchroton radiation or whatever ?
Anyway, there wasn't any mention of bombarding metal crystals.

> This is a very good way of getting monochromatic (single frequency) =

> X-ray radiation, but how do you use it to get a coherent (laser) beam?
> Is it just a case of making an appropriate cavity?

Errr ... coherent light is single frequency, isn't it ? Or have I missed
something here ?

> > Those thinking that x-ray lasers and gamma lsers are much to hard to
make
> > efficient should note that we are comparing them to gravity focussed
> > gizmos! How efficient can they be without breaking the soundbarrier
through
> > severe handwaving?
> Quite.  And near-c handwaving is sufficient to power a small rock 8-)

Gravitational lensing sucks :-)

Actually, I think it's a huge bodge in Traveller that you need this tacti=
c
to get around the fact that UV lasers would never make good weapons at
longer ranges.

Also, the intensity of the field required to do this is awesome - we can
only observe this effect in nature by watching stars be occluded by plane=
ts
and other stars. That's 1 g field strength or much higher causing the
effect, and I still don't buy this in a ship mounted weapon.

Gravitics in Traveller is a weird subject anyhow - has anyone ever answer=
ed
how
a ship's floor plates manage to switch off their field beyond a certain
range
from the ship ? Why aren't things external to the ship attracted to the
floor plates ? Cause havoc in a star port, wouldn't it ? Or imagine turni=
ng
on
the g-lens in the laser and watching half the docking bay suddenly crash =
on
top
of your nice shiny and hopelessly improbable TL15 laser array ?

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1997 12:21 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: QND House Rules : Hacking, revision 1

[ I sent this last week, but I didn't see it in the Digest.
  So, I apologise if this is a rerun.  -R ]

Here is the first revision of my Quick 'N Dirty House Rules
for hacking a world computer network.  Thank you for
responding, commenting, and referring me to hacking rules
variants.  Ok, here goes.

Once again, suggestions and further critique are solicited.
This thing has changed a lot over the past week or so.

Network Intrusion
- -----------------
Network Intrusion is almost an art form, relying on white-
knuckle rides through dangerous systems.  World networks
are powerful, relying on connectivity to provide a measure
of protection and tracing ability.  A secure system depends
on its computational rating primarily; in addition, the
nature of the system also determines security.  Finally,
the Law Level of the world the system is on places some
final touches to system security.

On the Network Intruder's side are the invading computer's
computational rating, the NI's computer skill and related
task skills, and the option of a dedicated program running
a system-hack program.

Architecture
- ------------
Just as a world network is made up of computer systems
(connected by Routers), each computer system is built of 
discrete nodes.  Each node has certain elements inherent 
to it that can be manipulated by a user.

Node Class/Type		Connects with	Elements
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
I / Direct Interface	N,S		Lockout setting
W / Wireless Interface  "		"
D / Database		D,B,N		Data files; 
					File access list
B / Bus			D,N,S		Connection list;
					Connection access list
					Activity monitor;
					Bus status
R / Router		N		Lockout setting
N / Processor		all		Security setting;
					System map;
					System task list;
					User task list;
					User list;
					Access code list
S / Slave		I,B,N		Task list


Various Traveller skills can manipulate different parts of a system.
The charater's Computer rating is always a +DM to the target number.

Skill		Chr	Function/s
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Admin		Edu	Get element
Camouflage	Int	Access system from router
Communications	Edu	Send/Receive external messages
Electronics	Edu	Change element
Forgery		Int	Change element; Access system from router
Intrusion	Int	Enter system; Delete element
Investigation	Int	Get element; Detect IC
Intimidation	End	Cybercombat
Perception	Edu	Get access list; Detect IC
Research	Edu	Get element


So, for instance, to enter a system one would use Intrusion + Int,
with Computer as one of the DM's...


Target # and Dice
- -----------------
Operations have the following target number formula:

Hacker's Computer skill
+ applicable skill
+ applicable base characteristic [ probably EDU, INT, or END ]
- - world law level

The number of dice to roll are:

2
- - Hacker Computer's computational rating
+ Node computational rating
+ 1 per hacking time reduction (otw 10 sec is assumed)
+ 2 if hacking a business ("amber") net
+ 4 if hacking a military/govt/megacorp ("red") net


Failure
- -------
A failure sets a node on internal alert, adding 2 to subsequent rolls. In 
addition, things like traces and sniffers may be sent out. A second failure 
triggers a system alert, and something bad happens to the hacker or h/is/er 
deck.


Alternate Algorithms
- --------------------
To help even the odds some, the hacker has a set of alternate
algorithms per hacking run.  These consist of thought-out,
preprepared contingency plans in case a phase of a run goes
awry.  On any failed roll the hacker may elect to execute 
(and expend) one of these algorithms.  The player may remove
one of the dice from the roll, simulating the effectiveness
of the added algorithm.

The number of algorithms available per run equals the hacker's
Computer rating.


Hardware
- --------
The typical hacker, being extremely mobile, will have a palmtop
R2 computer, or a briefcase/attache' R3 for more serious work.

A dedicated "cyberdeck" can be bought, with circuitry geared 
for hacking, with a +1 hack rating and -1 general purpose rating.
They are lighter than standard systems, and cost more:

Cost multiple	Size multiple
- --------------------------------------------------
2x  (m2)	0.71
3x  (m3)	0.57
4x  (m4)	0.5
5x  (m5)	0.44
6x  (m6)	0.4
8x  (m8)	0.35
11x (mB)	0.3
15x (mF)	0.25

These beasties range in cost multiples from 2 to 15.  The computer's
weight ratio varies directly with the square root of its cost multiple.
Is that a dense paragraph, or what?

Desk models tend to be R3's and R4's, and are easy targets
for goons to track down.  House computers range from R0 to R2.

Wireless data transfer rates top out at R2, so dedicated systems
aren't worth it here.  Wired systems have no limit.


Example 1
- ---------
Alright, two examples.  Let's assume an R4 Telecom network on
a planet with law level 7.  It's effective rating is R6.  On
an LL7 world, it's a challenge.  The network looks like this:

              D			2 Databases
              |			1 Bus
        W--N--B--N--R		2 Processors
              |			1 Router to the Grid
              D			1 Wireless interface

The goal: fetch billing records stored in one of the databases.

Our first contestant is a minor noble from Lunion, 97BCDA, Comp-2,
Intrusion-1, Investigation-1, Forgery-2, Perception-1, Admin-2.  He
has an R2, attempting a wireless connection.  Ha!

He has only 2 'alternate algorithms'.  He'd better be lucky.

For entry he needs: 2 + 1 + 12 - 7 = 8

Once he's in, simple navigation will require a target roll of:

	2 + 13 - 7 = 8

Dice to roll = 2 - 2 + 6 = 6, which is awfully high for this neophyte.
He's not going to get far.  Those 2 'alternate algorithms' are going
to be used up pretty fast.  He should work on less dangerous nets
first, to improve his skill ratings.  

Perhaps he would fare better by entering from another system via the 
Router, forging access codes for entry.  The roll for entry would
then be:

	2 + 2 + 12 - 7 = 9, slightly better but still not good.


Example 2
- ---------
Our next contestant has more experience: a rogue working for a
trading outfit, working from the central office.  Edu=15, Int=9, 
Computer-6, Intrusion-1, Investigation-1.  He has 6 alternate algorithms 
to spare.  We'll assume he's also got a wireless R2 connection.

For entry he needs: 6 + 1 + 9 - 7 = 9

Once he's in, the navigation roll is: 6 + 15 - 7 = 14

Not bad.  Dice to roll = 2 - 2 + 6 = 6, still tough but the odds are 
better than the noble's.  The network is small enough that he probably
has a good chance of getting in, getting the data, and jacking out
with algorithms to spare.  Maybe.



Rob
                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:40:51 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

I'm also against splitting the list, for reasons that other people have
already mentioned.  I don't think there's a problem with posting CT
material here.
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:34:22 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Laser Whomp

- ----------
> From: Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@astro.ucla.edu>
> To: Aramis@asylumbbs.com; traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Laser Whomp
> Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 12:30 PM
> 

>To get the ranges
> Traveller lasers have, the (glass) focal array would actually have to
> launch a diverging beam, which would get caught by the grav focus at
> a beam diameter big enough to give you the range you want and bent
> back into a focussed beam. That would require black-hold level
> gravity.

Look up Robert L. Forward's work on using black holes to warp space-time.
In one of his science fiction novels he described a vehicle that utilized
"Black Hole Dust" in a warp drive.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:14:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Hand waving

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Glenn Crawford wrote:

> 
> I have heard this phrase many times, here and on other lists....what in
> hoppin' hell does it mean?
> 
> Just Curious
> 

It describes what a GM does when cornered by a player who HAS to know why 
(or, by some strange coincidence, a parent with a small child...)

:D

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 12 Aug 1997 12:25 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: M:E21 Countries, revision 1

Comments:
- ---------
By spacefaring, I mean: space vehicle construction (or purchase??)
and solar system exploitation.  Will you find a set of
belter ships with the Maple Leaf on them?  Then Canada
is spacefaring. (??)

China has the one-child rule for most of its people,
a drastic policy to halve the current population by the
next century.  I think this will work.

My assumption was that, somehow, maybe inexplicably,
India is also able to put in very strict population 
controls.  Y'all are probably right, it may be too difficult.
Also, if India's internal struggles don't calm down, 
perhaps they won't be able to pull it together, but then
neither will the Arab states or East Asia or the zillion
tiny nations out there who won't play together.  So I dunno.

Great Suggestions:
- ------------------
>I would say this is an opportunity for those with more experience in PE to
>apply the PE rules to Earth in the 21st century as a Balkanized world, and
>start us from that point on in development of ME21.
>
>Garry

Wow, this could be a really great concept.  Given the current
state of the world, play out the development of the countries 
to determine the state of things... very cool!


Questions:
- ----------
What should the global population be?  I think the
upper range should be 40 billion.  If it's that far
up there, then country populations should be scaled
upwards.  Otoh, if we're down around 10 billion, then
that's a different thing.

I assume there are no companies which are exclusively 
space-oriented, or is that untrue?

Does someone out there know about Pakistan's ability and
plans for aerospace?  (I am ignorant of them)  Ditto for
Nigeria.

And what do y'all think about Brazil?  And Canada?  And
if you prefer Argentina over SA, let me know.  Give me
some numbers, insert them in the table, remove some from
the table, whatever!



Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations

Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
- ----------------------------------------------------------
China		500M		1.00
India		1.5B		0.85
Indonesia	350M		0.70
USA		350M		0.69
EU		300M		0.54
Nigeria		200M		0.30
Spanish SA	200M		0.27
Japan		100M		0.23
Korean Union	120M		0.23

More corrections and additions, anyone?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:34:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Solomani

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

Snippage

> We are here, we come in peace, and when a bug-free edition of Traveller is
> released you will be welcomed into the cosmos.
> 
> Doug "Azhanti High Spleen" Berry
> 

Well THAT explains a LOT!

 Do you have an uncontrollable urge to use too
many 'i's in your writing? Like very spicy food? Think you really should
be doing the same thing your great great great grandfather did? Promise
yourself you'll buy one of those newfangled personal computer things, say
in twenty or thirty years 'when they get the bugs worked out'? An
unexplainable eversion to sushi, or any other 'unprepared' food? 

If you've answered yes to three or more of the above questions, contact us
at the Jenny Jones show, we want to put you on the air for our 'I am
REALLY Alien' special.

(PS Welcome back!)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1677
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 12 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1678



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: US Military
Re: Hand waving
Re: M:E21
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: Chocolate on the mind.....
Re: Second careers
Re: Chocolate on the mind.....
Re: Chocolate on the mind.....
Freelance Traveller Editorial Decision
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1674
Re: X-Boat List
Re: M:E21 Countries, revision 1
Re: M:E21
[T97#1675] GDW-Beta and TravLang
Re: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires
Re: US Military
Re: X-Boat List
RE: E21 Countries, revision 1
Re: Hand waving
Alpha Crucis and Massilia
Clever Player, DRAT!
Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:46:21 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: US Military

At 06:32 AM 8/12/97 -0700, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>snip<
>>In the Navy, the officers and enlisted are aboard ship offshore, within
>>range of combat.
>
>In all fairness to the Navy (and after watching the Discovery Channel's
>show about the Forrestal fire), squids face more danger than most grunts do
>on a day to day basis.. If I get hit, I fall down and bleed a lot.. a ship
>gets hit, and it's a long ride to the bottom for a lot of young guys (and
>women these days.)  I may rag on the Navy, but I wouldn't want their jobs
>for the world.  

Well as former squid, my instructors always taught us that the closest land
was straight down. I too have watched the Discovery Channel;s Forrestal
Fire show, boy it has brought back memories for me. We used to see those
films about once a year with some that I only saw in USN. Once a year they
put me and some of my ship mates into a small compartment and then flood
it. We had to stop the flooding with our training and brains and
limited(read none) DC support. The first thing we did when we entered the
compartment was to strip off our clothing. To use with the various plugs to
ensure a *leakproof* seal. As in the Forrestal fire I too had to help fight
a ship fire onboard my second ship, I was a twidget(read electronics type)
but due to duration of the fire, the DC(Damage Control) parties were in
need of relief. I used the Twin Agent fire fighting rig ie CO2 and *Purple
K* potassium carbonate. As for why I was selected well sometimes being a
BUFF(Big Ugly Fat Fellow) has its disadvantages. The fire was the result of
a electrical system shorting out and catching other flammables on fire. The
fire was hot enough to melt the aluminium in the overhead light fixtures.

>> In the Air Force, the enlisted escort the officers to the planes, salute
>>smartly as the officers take off to fly to the combat zone, and return to
>>the NCO Club to "guard the base."  
>
>Heh.  Reminds me of the time we were getting in a C-130.. This AF-type was
>lording over us about his cushy job, easy hours, etc.. until one of my
>buddies showed him a Stinger SAM and told him that it could blow the wing
>off his Herc from miles away, and we were the ones wearing parachutes and
>equipped to survive in the field.

Well I have worked with several former AF people, they were Viet Nam
vets, *protecting the base* was a hell of alot more dangerous than being a
plane jockey.

Glad to see you back Doug.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:15:13 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Hand waving

At 11:10 AM 8/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I have heard this phrase many times, here and on other lists....what in
>hoppin' hell does it mean?

I learned it at HMC, when the professors would start writing ever so
slightly faster as they neared the nasty bits of a calculation.  For
something particularly nasty, the chalk dust flew, and the audience,
reduced to stenographers, wrote it down, and hoped it would make sense later.

In general, I use it for any argument that sounds reasonable on the
surface, but that depends on smooth talking, and just slipping by for its
validity.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: M:E21

>> Also, not just because I'm patriotic, but Canada should be included
>> as one of the spacefaring nations. Or by "spacefaring" do you mean
>> nations that build/launch their own ships?

Ahem. We've been building spacecraft since the early '70s - and launching
them into polar orbits from our own launch site, near Churchill, Manitoba.

A weird story: A friend of mine is the son of a former Canadian Space
Agency director. His dad is currently in Thailand working on a project.
Seems that a Thai princess has just finished a degree in Geology at some
American university, so her father, the King, has decided to give her a
graduation present: her own ground-imaging geology satellite! Spar
Aerospace, builders of the Canadarm and Radarsat, won the contract to build
this little toy.

Spar managed to get a choice slice of waveband for data transmission, at a
frequency which allowed them to build a particularly small ground station -
less than four meters across IIRC. The cost advantages are obvious. But
then the Thai officials found out that the Malaysians, who already have a
satellite or two, have a much bigger groundstation, more than ten meters
across. So the Thais demanded to have a ground station that is _bigger_
than the Malaysian dish! The Spar folks tried to explain why smaller was
better, but to no avail. So they're going to build the groundstation with a
ludicrously oversided dish, and most of its surface area will be purely
cosmetic.

ObTrav: If we project this sort of behavior into the Traveller universe, we
can imagine some Padishah on a Balkanized Tech-4 planet, hiring offworld
contractors to build him a railway system - with gigantic fusion-powered
trains equipped with inertial compensators. Just to out-do the dictator
next door.

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <pawn@cam.org>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 13:44:20 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

On 08/12/97 at 11:01 AM,  "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk> said:

>Electron bombardment of a metal gives off EM radiation in a continuum 
>(bremsstrahlung, the "braking radiation" given off by the electrons  as
>they decelerate) plus a few high-intensity peaks from the process

>o incoming electron kicks out an electron from atom
>o electron from continuum level "falls into hole" left by ejected 
>  electron, generating X-ray photon.

>This is a very good way of getting monochromatic (single frequency)  X-ray
>radiation, but how do you use it to get a coherent (laser) beam? Is it
>just a case of making an appropriate cavity?

Don't free-electron lasers produce the coherent beam using "wigglers", a
series of electro-magnets that "wiggle" a magnetic field along the beam
path. I don't think the photons get bounced back and forth with magnetic
fields, ;-> but somehow or other magnets are involved in creating and
focusing the beam.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:54 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Chocolate on the mind.....

In-Reply-To: <m0www7v-0006t9C@bakunin>

Michael,

> never mind, desert storm showed that US was able to produce
>  a new chocolate for troupers. It dosnt change taste in the
>  heat. BTW it was not based on milk, but on aminmal waste
>  (blood, brain, boones, etc).

yummy.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:53:20 -0500
From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Second careers

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
<snip>
> Oops. That's the problem with canon. Now there will be people who insist
> that the scouts USED TO HAVE cutlasses once upon a tuime based on that
> statement.
> 
> Marc

So now it's canon.  There's a problem with canon.  My head hurts.

:) 

Matt McL

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:54 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Chocolate on the mind.....

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970808170044.5436A-100000@pill.Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

Bruce,

> However, if that human ate 20 lbs of chocolate, the theophylline in that
> dose would definitely put you in the hospital cardiac unit.
>  
> _Then_ they'd put you in the loony bin for stuffing 20 lbs of chocolate
> down your gut;-)

Pretty normal for most girls I know...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:54 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Chocolate on the mind.....

In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=DSC%l=GYPSUM-970808115205Z-5188@gypsum.dsc.com>

Makens,,

>So the question is folks,  what vital cargoes are going to be needed to be shipped
>before billions of solomani voluntarily leave Terra, for "uncivilized" 
>places like sylea, alderbaran, home, dingir and other places...

Babylon 5 videos
an internet connection
soft toilet paper
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:13:09 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller Editorial Decision

The time has come.  Imperium Games has proven that it can do
quality products; the problem now appears that they are either
unable or unwilling to focus on quality at the expense of
schedule.

I realize that Imperium Games is a business, and must make its
decisions based on what is good for the business.  But, and this
is strictly my opinion, not to be taken as gospel, they do not
have a feel for either the industry in which they are working or
for their specific target marketplace.  There appears to be too
much of a focus on timely product releases rather than on quality
product releases - yet they have shown that they can release
quality product, and have the market (as semi-represented by the
TML) notice and react positively.

I feel that it is time for the gloves to come off at Freelance
Traveller.  Effective immediately, the policy of not publishing
outright negative reviews of products is rescinded.  I can no
longer square with my conscience the conflict between complete
information to Traveller players and the desire to see Imperium
Games succeed.  Since IG has proven that they have what it will
take to succeed (even if they don't wish to use it), I no longer
feel that it is appropriate to in effect protect them from their
own mistakes.  I will continue to support their efforts to bring
_good_ products to market; I will encourage others to buy those
products that are worth buying.  I will no longer refuse to
comment on poor product.

To that end, I am requesting reviews of those products which are
currently not reviewed on Freelance Traveller.  I will also take
additional reviews of those products that _are_ reviewed on FT;
variety of opinion is to be desired.  It is preferred but by no
means mandatory that reviews be aimed at the player unfamiliar
with previous Traveller incarnations.

Reviews should either be sent to me at
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com or posted here with the subject
line appropriately flagged.
- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:20:44 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1674

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:13:57 -0400, Kenneth Bearden
<dreamer@brokersys.com> wrote:

>I just saw a copy of Jim Vassilakos' Galactic Viewer tonight, and wow,
>what a great job he did!
>
>Does anybody know if v2.1 is the latest, or is there a later version
>that I need to get?

The latest version is version 2.3; it's available from his pages
or from the InfoCenter/Software page on Freelance Traveller.  It
has some nice enhancements; for example, it is now possible to
add jump routes via point-and-shoot; you can also identify
hydro-0 worlds and systems with gas giants and bases without
needing to look at the detailed UWP.  If you think 2.1 was great,
by all means get 2.3!

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:36:56 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

John Wood wrote:

>I'm also against splitting the list, for reasons that other people have
>already mentioned.  I don't think there's a problem with posting CT
>material here.

I don't have a problem with posting CT material here, either.  My problem
is with receiving piles of uninteresting T4 and M:0 sludge.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:36:59 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: M:E21 Countries, revision 1

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

>China has the one-child rule for most of its people,
>a drastic policy to halve the current population by the
>next century.  I think this will work.

???  What's your reference for the plan to "halve the current population by
the next century"?  And -- while contemporary demography is not my strong
point, I had got the impression that the single-child family policy in the
PRC has been steadily disintegrating over the last 6-8 years, and
accelerating in that trend.


>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>
>Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
>----------------------------------------------------------
>China           500M            1.00
>India           1.5B            0.85
>Indonesia       350M            0.70
>USA             350M            0.69
>EU              300M            0.54
>Nigeria         200M            0.30
>Spanish SA      200M            0.27
>Japan           100M            0.23
>Korean Union    120M            0.23

Japan looks small to me -- how much population can we expect it to lose in
the next ~50 years, and why?

Also, what's this "GNP 'factor'"?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:30:58 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21

As for suggested reading on these topics:

" The Moon is a Harsh Mistress " and " Friday " by Robert A Heinlein ( I
think several others have suggested this already )

The Mars Series by Kim Stanley Robinson ( again, I think others have
mentioned this )

"Lunar Descent ", " Orbital Decay ", " Clarke County, Space" , " The
Jericho Iteration", and " Labyrinth of Night "  all by Allen Steele ( my
personal favorite
current writer )

and ( if you can grab it ) Asimovs' Science Fiction has a story in the
August 1997 edition called " Winter Fire " by Geoffery A. Landis

All of these give an idea of what I think things will be like in M:E21.  

or maybe we could just have the CoDominium.......nah....

John 




It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:04:05 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#1675] GDW-Beta and TravLang

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:34:10 -0400, Andy Brick
<exeus@compuserve.com> wrote:

>Subject: GDW-Beta and TravLang
>
>Hi All,
>
>How do I subscribe to these mailing lists ?

I can't speak for GDW-Beta, but you can subscribe to TravLang by
sending email to maiser@earth.execnet.com with any subject line
and a body of

subscribe travlang

If you also want a digest format (low volume list, so not
necessarily recommended) add a second body line of

set travlang digest

If you have any problems, email me directly; that list is my
baby.

- --=20
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:30:57 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:44:20 +0100, you wrote:


>It's not a "bug", it's a "feature", indeed an "opportunity". 

You're idea of what's a bug and what isn't is a lot different from
mine, then.

>The factors
>used in the War system are intentionally extremely vague, and thus in some
>cases (as in the example you've picked) one has interpret the data
>accordingly.

No interpretation is needed. The text specifically states that two
units, no matter the TL, are the same size if they have the same
combat factors. Size is determined by adding the combat factors
together.

There's no "interpretation" to this rule. 

> There is no 'fix' for such situations, unless you want to model
>in detail the precise ships, troops, etc. used.

Oh please. With all those nice factors and tables in the book, are you
saying there wasn't room to put in one where (for example) a TL 13
combat unit's size was determined by adding combat ratings, and for
every TL increase or decrease you increased or decreased size by 25%?

> The whole point of the War
>system was to avoid this level of detail, while still giving a reasonable
>representation, so that the non-wargaming types could resolve the odd battle
>without needing pages and pages of complicated combat statistics and rules.

At the same time you've got convoluted rules on how to subvert
governments, how to maintain a pocket empire economy, etc, etc, all
which have quite complex calculations and equations.

>Once could hand-wave and say the high tech guys need tons of equipment space
>for all their technical support, etc., while the low tech troops are packed,
>sardine-like, into as small a space as possible - perhaps the high tech
>troops expect individual cabins with the latest entertainment equipment! :-)
>I repeat, this is not a bug, but if you want to suggest alternative rules or
>interpretations, then the TML is the place to do it! ;-)

OK, here's my off-the-top-of-my-head solution to the size problem.

A TL 12 combat unit determines its size by adding the combat ratings,
just like it says in the book. For every TL increase over 12, decrease
the size needed (rounding down) by 25%. For every TL decrease below
12, increase the size needed for transport purposes by 30% (rounding
down).

That way, if you want to drop TL 15 troops onto a planet, each unit
with an offense and defense of 1 would take 75% less transport than
the TL 12 unit would. If you decided to round up enough men on a TL 8
world to make up the same amounto firepower, you'll need 120% more
transport to carry them around.

There should be a bonus to using high tech troops on lower tech
worlds. Right now the way the rules are written, there is not.

John Lansford

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:59:46 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: US Military

> Well I have worked with several former AF people, they were Viet Nam
> vets,*protecting the base* was a hell of alot more dangerous than being a plane jockey.


Until the AAA and SAMS come at you...Or the jet decides to quit working
in the middle of the night over the Atlantic...Or the weather goes down
to mins and your sweating your skin off on your last 1000 lbs of
fuel...Or the guy you're trying to teach formation to attempts to ram
your leader 15 times in one 1.5 hour sortie-the first of three just like
it in a day.

Sure-guarding the base is a lot tougher than that.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:25:15 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

At 01:36 PM 8/12/97 -0700, Kenji wrote:
>John Wood wrote:
>
>>I'm also against splitting the list, for reasons that other people have
>>already mentioned.  I don't think there's a problem with posting CT
>>material here.
>
>I don't have a problem with posting CT material here, either.  My problem
>is with receiving piles of uninteresting T4 and M:0 sludge.

Could we possibly reign in the rhetoric?  I run a campaign set in the
Lunion subsector set in the year 1105.  Very Classic.  I also am an active
participant in the ISBA/THUDDD competition.  Very T4.  If called upon, I
will discuss Dulinor's (lack of) strategy, the evolution of Virus, the
development of the Rule of Man out of the Nth Interstellar War, or just
about anything else of any possible connection to Traveller!

It is all useful!  Almost all of it is interesting!  To make my point, this
is what I enjoy about each of Traveller's "periods"

Classic:  The setting, espically the Spinward Marches through the Fifth
Frontier War.

Mega:  The DGP background publications (Alien Books, WBH, etc..) and the
task system.

TNE:  The harder edge to technology, increased detail in developing
starships and weapons using FFS.

T4/M:0:  The different look to the Imperium, the feeling of getting in on
the ground floor as it were.. also, QSDS/SSDS/FFS2 providing still more
options for the gearhead in all of us.

I use just about everything I read here in some way or the other.  It
really amazes me when somebody can't mentally seperate the useful nuggets
of information from whatever context they are given in.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:15:00 -0400
From: "Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com>
Subject: RE: E21 Countries, revision 1

China's population is currently on the order of 1.2 billion.  It has
grown from the 1 billion figure I've seen before.  Since it has grown,
the one-child rule may not be working so well...  Total world population
has also grown and is currently around 5 billion.  If anyone is
interested, I can get more information on this (growth rates of
countries, etc.).  The big thing that is coming up in the next several
decades is depletion of world resources, so I've heard.

- - David

*snip*
>
>China has the one-child rule for most of its people,
>a drastic policy to halve the current population by the
>next century.  I think this will work.
>
>*snip*
>
>Questions:
>----------
>What should the global population be?  I think the
>upper range should be 40 billion.  If it's that far
>up there, then country populations should be scaled
>upwards.  Otoh, if we're down around 10 billion, then
>that's a different thing.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:09:51 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Hand waving

A fellow traveller said;

> 
> I have heard this phrase many times, here and on other lists....what in
> hoppin' hell does it mean?
> 
> Just Curious
> 

Close your eyes...Drift back slowly to either a high school or (most)
under graduate physics classes (especially those taught by a TA.  OK are
you their?  Good.  Now remember, when someone asked, "how gravity really
worked" or "explain what holds protons together in a nucleus" or any of
a number of topics clearly beyond the capability of the "instructor" to
answer.  Now whereas some of your better instructors would have admitted
that they weren't sure or at least that scientists as a whole were not
sure, there was undoubtably someone in your educational past who would
proceed to "explain" how something worked...or at least their best guess
on how it worked--but they wouldn't tell you the "best guess" part.

Now if you recall the fervent, highly animated explaination that
followed...often with pretty blackboard pictures but no equations...then
you will have relived a "handwaving" explaination.  A handwaving
explaination usually involves theatrics, diagrams, and rhetoric designed
to back up arguements with little (or carefully selected) scientific
backing.  It is more often as statement of a persons beliefs (which
depending on the person) which may or may not be true.

This all puts handwaving in a negative light; however, I have also had
professors who used it in a positive way.  Sometimes a question would
come up that he (she/it/they) and others in the field had experimental
answers for but for which the theory had not yet been fully developed. 
A "handwaving explaination" would then begin outlining what they
believed was a move in the right direction and was the thrust of current
experiments to prove or disprove.

Sorry--this is more than you wanted I'm sure.  Just goes to show
you...don't ask a question that I might answer--I'm quite long winded:-}

Enjoy

TT

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 19:13:37 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Alpha Crucis and Massilia

Hi,
On the TNE-RCES list we have started updating various sectors for 1200
stats. So far we have done Alpha Crucis and Massilia. I think most
people have agreed to do Lishun next, but I am not sure.  

The available data for Alpha Crucis  only had names for the high
population planets, so we came up with names for all the planets. 
Harold Hale also updated the Stellar Data, so that it agrees better
with current stellar evolution, and also identified named stars that
exist in Alpha Crucis.   Many of the important worlds were given short
writeups.  Also two pocket empires were created, one of which has a
history that goes back to the Long Night. The 1120 and 1200 data are
presented on available on teh web. (Address below) 

The Massilia data was alot easier, because it had been developed for
the Rebellion in Knightfall. This gave a good jumping off point. 
Massilia also has many world write ups.  

In both sectors we tried to make everything agree with canon.  

The sector data for 1120 and 1200 are located in the OPAL section of
the BARD pages at:

http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard.html

Well if you see anything wrong, or the canon police spot an infraction
let us know.  
 
Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What is round and dangerous?  
A:A vicious circle.            

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 22:26:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Clever Player, DRAT!

    Many thanks to everyone who helped me out with Lighter Than Air stuff a
while back.  Been running with it and it's been going well, until the last
session when one of my players got clever.  And since she's playing an Academic
as a character she's allowed to be.
    Situation is the PC's are stranded on this mountain crag with a balloon but
no fuel to heat the air to lift it.  For convience the sun is similar to Sol
and she's proposing to use mirrors the group has available to them to focus the
light from the sun through a translucent portion of the balloon fabric to
create a Very Hot Spot inside the balloon that would heat the air within and
thus cause lift.
    Question is first will this work?  Secondly is it possible at all?  And if
so and her solution doesn't work what would?

Thanks in advance!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:10:44 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

Excuse ignorance, but what the #@%& is a 'Wendelstein'? And what use is a
Tokamak as a power generator if it consumes 10-100 times more energy than
it generates? 

I was also interested to hear that the Terrans didn't develop fusion power
until late because they insisted on using electromag rather than gravitic
containment. Seems to me that Milieu: E21 technology will be very 'hard
SF', with gravitics and fusion research as emerging (ie less reliable)
technologies. 

Here are some ideas I've had for E21 technology: 
DRIVES:
Ion drives - for outer system/unmanned vehicles
Solar sails - inner system 'clear space' runs - but v. limited payload
probably means unmanned, specialist (non-cargo) vehicles. Initial launch
by some kind of rocket booster assisted by laser? 
Daedalus Thermonuclear Pulse Drive - military applications only; early
fusion (ie semicontrolled fusion) = approx. early TL9
HEPLaR drives - military/early fusion technology = approx. early TL10 -
direct descendant of Daedalus H-bomb drive? 
Fusion rockets - TL10 - fusion era technology. 
High-efficiency rockets - TL8 - civilian. 

PROPULSION:
Maglev lifters - very expensive, need planetary magnetic field. Limited to
Earth atmospheric and orbital defence ? 
Ducted-fan hover technology - 'hovertanks' with amphibian (and
limited flight) capabilities.  
Improved cybernetics gives capability for specialist 'walker' vehicles
Wing-In-Ground aircraft for long-distance transport (troops and heavy
cargo). 
Advanced submarines, fission-powered with deep-dive (?1000metres?) and 
(maybe?) Wing-In-Ground flight capability for strategic deployment. 

POWER: 
Fission plants
Solar arrays
Batteries
HPG/capacitors - applications needing short peaks of sustained power eg
communications, active sensors
EPG (explosive power generator) - for weapons etc. requiring large peak
power. 
Huge fusion plants come into military use once Terra gets the fusion
containment problems under wraps. 

SPACE HABITATS: 
'Gravity' problems solved using spin modules (eg spun hulls, 'hamster
cages', spin capsules and spin habitats). 

WEAPONS:
TERRAN: Mass drivers, lasers, missiles (nuclear and conventional),
'grapeshot' weapons - made effective because of advanced cybernetic fire
control. Advantage in biological weapons; may
also create eg specialist bacteria that corrode plastics, metal alloys
etc.
VILANI: Particle accelerators, plasma/fusion weapons - made effective
because of huge battleships (10000+tons) with multiple batteries and very
large crews.
Initial advantage, but *only* where the few large battleships can be
deployed in the right place at the right time. 

Once the Terrans realise the nature of the Vilani forces, hit-and-run
tactics will keep the enemy on the defensive. Terrans reverse-engineer
captured Vilani ships and weapons and quickly correct their theories about
gravitics and fusion technologies. 

A new generation of Terran weapons systems - fusion guns, particle
accelerators, gravitic-guided missiles and fire control systems (Asimov's
*Homo Sol*, anybody?), powered by fusion plants only slightly inferior to
those the Vilani use, gives Terran forces a slight one-on-one advantage. 

The edge is in Terran cybernetics (fire control, missile guidance, etc)
that allows them to strike the enemy from beyond the enemy's maximum
weapons range. Strategically, the Terrans are willing to take far more
risks, and therefore are far more unpredictable than the Vilani. Deep
raids and strikes disrupt the Vilani economy and society over whole
neighbouring *sectors*. 

Perhaps most importantly - the Vilani are demoralised by contact with a
race that has developed jump drive without Vilani assistance. The Terrans
also possess a demented genius for weaponry, and a willingness to pursue
'perverted' (ie new) technologies. The Terrans also have few qualms about
modifying *themselves* (eg cybernetics, genetic manipulation, surgery),
and, what is probably most disturbing of all, their bodies are infested
with *diseases*, yet they still live... 

Given that the Vilani have spread across so many systems, and
encountered so many minor human races, they must have experienced disease
before (infrequently). However, with their limited medical
technology, quarantine might be the only way the Vilani would have of
checking the spread of disease. 

The Vilani would therefore have an even *greater* horror of
disease, since any individual becoming infected would be exiled from their
community. For the communal Vilani mindset, this *social* form of death
might be even more terrifying than physical death. The thought of 
Terrans walking about with disease germs, fungi and parasites continually
infesting their bodies could be enough to strike terror into the souls of
Vilani soldiers and starship crews. 

Indeed the Vilani must believe Terra to be a hell-world of bizarre
technologies, sociopathic lunatics and pandemic plagues. No wonder the
Vilani never launched an invasion of Earth! In fact, they may have
suppressed information about Terra's location, in case any of the Vilani
subject races visited it, and spread contagion to the rest of the Ziru
Sirka. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1678
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 13 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1679



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Disintegrators
Spacefaring nations and economics
Terran Jump Drive
Re: X-Boat List
Re: Cities in Flight
Huh? :)
Canon?
Arcologies
Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology
Re: Hand waving
Re: M:E21
Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)
3D mapping
Re: Terran Jump Drive
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1675
Launch Facilities
GNP, etc.
Re: 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...
1st I.W.
Re: Solomani
Re: Hand waving
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1675

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:23:16 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Disintegrators

I know this would damage the 'canon' of disintegrators interfering with
strong/weak forces, but I think that's pretty widely recognised as a load
of old cobblers anyway. 

Larry Niven's disintegrators only work on the forces *between* atoms, by
temporarily suppressing electron charge. The object flies apart under
electrostatic repulsion between its component atoms/molecules, turning
into an ultra-fine dust. 

Still plenty of problems with 'real life' physics, but less than messing
about with nuclear forces, methinks.  

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:46:49 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Spacefaring nations and economics

Assuming Terra begins relying on mass drivers and/or beanstalk for
economical transfers to orbit, and that the greatest wealth/opportunities
are to be found in space rather than on beat-up, overexploited old Earth,
then the economic and political power balance of the world would shift
towards the equatorial nations. 

Another factor influencing this might be increased reliance on the oceans
for foodstuffs, mining, living habitats and so on - shifting the balance
further in favour of the hitherto underexploited Pacific, Indian and
Southern Oceans. 

With massdrivers and beanstalks being built around the equator (say,
Kilimanjaro, Solomon Islands, Java, Brazil, and so on) and the planet
depending more heavily on space and the oceans for resources, we might see
Europe and the USA thrown onto Hard Times (tm). 

Political groupings: (suggested)
Oceanic Union (Aust, NZ, SW Pacific islands and a number of SE Asian
nations in an economic/military alliance along the lines of the European
Union/NATO. 
Japan/Korea bloc. 
China/Russia bloc. 
Europa (current-day European Union plus Eastern Europe, Turkey and Egypt?)
North American bloc (USA, Canada, Mexico plus a few other Central American
states)
South American bloc.
Middle Eastern bloc. 
Subsaharan African bloc. 

Each of these would be organised upon economic/trade lines, but with
integrated defence arrangements (something like the European Union today).
Member states would still retain national identity, but with much less
economic and political autonomy than today. 

Of course, the *real* powers would be the corporations, particularly those
controlling access to the massdrivers and beanstalks (projects that would
strain the finances of nation-states, but well within the capability of
corporations). 

This offers us a trigger for the First Interstellar War: corporations
become impatient with negotiating for resources with the Vilani, and
fabricate evidence of a Vilani 'attack' on Terran interests...drawing the
various power blocs, and the UN, into war. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:08:16 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Terran Jump Drive

I think we're mostly in agreement that the 21st century Terrans raced
ahead with their technology in certain fields, missing others that they
had to return to later. 

If (as I am pretty sure) the technologies of fusion, jumpdrive and
gravitics are linked quite strongly to a good knowledge of 'gravitic
physics' that we Terrans have only got a sketchy knowledge of...

Then perhaps the Terrans have raced down a couple of dead ends with these
technologies, because of slightly flawed gravitics theories. Hence
retarded development of fusion power, anti-grav/thrusters, and jump drive. 

We know that the Hivers spent a few centuries using some really crappy
jumpdrives - you know, the ones that self-destructed after a few jumps. 

Maybe Terran J-drives are similar. They're fine for microjumps around Sol
system, but if you try to take them on more than a few successive
parsec jumps, they turn into radioactive slag. That would delay
interstellar exploration for some time after the discovery of 'jump
drive', until a way of overcoming these difficulties is discovered. 

The thing that suggested this to me is the 2 tech level 'step' in
developing jump drive - looks to me like races discover jump, but have a
lot of trouble pushing it beyond jump-1. This would make the Vilani's
discovery of jump-2 an even more precious secret than previously imagined. 

Once the Terrans have captured a few Vilani ships, even only j-1 merchant
ships, they would be able to reverse engineer (not just the jump
drives, but the thrusters, grav compensators, sensors...) and fix their
theoretical framework of gravitics. This would lead to explosive
technological growth...which we know is what happened. 

The dozens of years of effort in trying to upgrade the inefficient Terran
j-1 drives later leads to many new insights into the physics of jump,
allowing Terra to surpass Vilani technology (achieving jump-3 and thus a
strategic advantage). Parallel to this: application of 'outdated' 19th
century Gatling Gun technology to modern machineguns, thus producing
modern autocannons and similar super-high rate of fire weapons. 

BTW, speaking of 'explosive technological growth' - has anybody read
Damien Broderick's "The Spike"? 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:22:55 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

>>I don't have a problem with posting CT material here, either.  My problem
>>is with receiving piles of uninteresting T4 and M:0 sludge.

[snip]

>I use just about everything I read here in some way or the other.  It
>really amazes me when somebody can't mentally seperate the useful nuggets
>of information from whatever context they are given in.


I couldn't agree with Douglas more. Unlike (it seems) most people on this
list, I have started with T4*, and am looking back at on all the CT/MT/TNE
stuff. I find reading the various supplements and magazines that my
Traveller fantical friend owns (you out there Harry? :) ) very interesting,
and almost all of it is useful with T4. A list split would be a major pain,
since it means subscribing to two lists, with the large possibility of
reading the same things twice due to cross posting.

If people are really that upset/worried/bothered/harassed by T4 (or TNE, or
MT, or even CT) then we should all try to at least label our posts with the
[T4] or whatever prefix, as suggested earlier in the thread. That way those
of use who find everything useful will still get everything (and only one
copy to boot), while those who only like a particular setting can skip over
what they don't like.

Of course, this will only work if we _all_ put in the effort.

Cheers,
Jason


* Sort of. I knew of Traveller, and had read the MT and TNE rulebooks, but
T4 is the first Traveller I have played or bought supplements for (although
once I started playing T4 I did pick up a few supplements for the other
settings).

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:28:01 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Cities in Flight

At 07:20 PM 8/10/97 PST, you wrote:
>
>"Cities in Flight" is the source for TDK and anagathics. Jerry
>Pournelle's CoDominium/Empire universe is the source of black globes
>(Langston Field) and white globes (Motie modified Langston Field). E.C.
>Tubb's "Dumarest of Terra" series is the source of slow drug, fast
>drug, and high, middle and low passages, as well as the low passage
>lottery. 
>
>Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
>Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
>The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
>Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.
>

The Sword Worlds and the 800 ton Broadsword class Mercenary Cruiser
(although VASTLY scaled down, as some of the ships were a mile in diameter)
were probably based off of  H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking."  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:35:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Huh? :)

>Maybe they're accounting for the CocaCola machines, movie theaters,
>videogames, nautilus machines etc that any self respecting TL 15 unit
>requires ;)

  I understood TL 15 BD included all that :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:35:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Canon?

>Regardless, I am beginning to seriously question whether a Milieu 21st C
>can work.  Canon is serioulsy threatened.  Its time for the Deus Ex
>Machina.

  How so? As long as whomever at IG ends up handling such watches
for discrepancies or inconsistencies?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:35:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Arcologies

Hello,
  It seems unlikely that this will happen in a society that is
not significantly collectivist, has more limited ideas of both
privacy and/or space, and isn't in need of new or replacement
housing stock. I wouldn't mind being proved wrong (esp. if I
had money riding on it), but I wouldn't expect to see a Soleri
style complex outside of Japan or Israel in the next twenty
years, and then only a few smaller (1-10K) units. In the long
term the west in general and North America in particluar seems
unlikely to go that way.

  The exception would be the logical extension in NA of the
gated community concept. Much more likely, especially as it
would provably be a short-term economically viable project
before it occurred, but it implies a nasty degeneration of
quality of life (perceived or actual) before the wealthy 
upper-middle class would want to be put in (to them) a 
sardine can.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

>   Archologies would start to appear about this time, but there would
>still be considerable urban sprawl.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:42:18 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology

Michael Barry wrote:

[snip]
>
>Indeed the Vilani must believe Terra to be a hell-world of bizarre
>technologies, sociopathic lunatics and pandemic plagues.
[snip]


	Gee... sounds like my kinda place.  Diseases aside, it almost
sounds like Famille Spofulam HQ :).

	Seriously, though, I really like the disease explanation for why
the Vilani never invaded Terra; the first few scout teams that landed came
back horrendously diseased.  I'd think that the only disease
micro-organisms that the Vilani and other non-Solomani humans would have
encountered would have been alien ones that adapted to humaniti within the
past 300,000 years.  It would have made no sense for the Ancients to have
scattered diseased humans thoughout the stars...  I'd imagine that the
number of disease micro-organisms that the Vilani would know would be at
max a few dozen, all of them not terribly well adapted to infecting humans.
I'd think that in most cases, they'd be organisms that simply found the
human digestive tract a nice place to live.

	So imagine what their reaction to a whole planetful of diseases
that have evolved to parasitize humans.  Just imagine how they'd freak out
over antibiotic-resistant superbugs.  And then there are the seriously
killer diseases; viral meningitis.  Tuberculosis.  AIDS.  Flesh-eating
bacteria.  Mad Cow disease.  Ebola.  The bubonic plague.

	And then of course there's the other parasites; mosquitoes, jock
itch, tapeworms, lice, fleas, leeches, black flies (I can just see the
first Ziru Sirkaa ship landing in northern Quebec in spring time :>),
hookworms...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 21:30:44 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Hand waving

On 08/12/97 at 07:09 PM,  Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
said:

> A handwaving explanation usually involves theatrics, diagrams, and
> rhetoric designed to back up arguements with little (or carefully
> selected) Scientific backing.  It is more often as statement of a 
> persons beliefs (which depending on the person) which may or may not
> be true.

While that's certainly an *application* of handwaving. The origin of the
term *may* lie elsewhere.  I first heard the term in a conversation between
my father and one of my uncles, over 30 years ago, regarding a politician's
speech. Said my uncle, "He was just handwaving his vote away.", or
something like that.  I asked what that meant and was told that handwaving
was what a magician does when he's doing a trick.  He "waves his hands
about" to distract the audience from what is really going on, just like a
politician will try to distract his audience from the truth.  

So, anytime someone wants to distract you from what's really going on (for
whatever reason) and they use theatrics, diagrams, rhetoric, hand gestures,
emotional speeches, calls to patriotism, statistics (real or made up), or
plausible sounding explanations they are "handwaving."

We Traveller folk, use it to explain how jump drives, gravitics, thrusters,
heplar, and so on work.  We don't *really* know how they work, but to
maintain our player's suspension of belief we give them a reasonable
sounding explanation.  A good "handwave" should be internally
self-consistent, so as to not allow them to come up with those big
game-breaking tricks, otherwise we have to "handwave" why those tricks
won't work.  ;->

Does that explain it?  Good!  My arms where getting tired. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:08:33 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: M:E21

>Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
>----------------------------------------------------------

>USA		400M		0.90
                ^^^
I'm not sure of this, what's the population of the USA at the moment?


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:22:55 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: 2nd Imperium TL)

John R. Snead writes: 

>How lovely, I arrive back from a wonderful GenCon to find some utter moron
>has trolled the TML with this entirely off-topic crap.  Yes, I know who
>said this.  He also built lots of road in Germany, does that make
>supporting road-building suspect too?

   Speaking of gun control, can we please cut the Bill Press and Pat
Buchanan imitations and exercise a little *mouth* control before another
useless flame war develops over this topic?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:25:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: 3D mapping

Just as a side curiousity, I found something recently. In our "nearby"
star maps, you don't find any significant Jump-1 mains... in fact, the
best you find at jump-2 are clusters, and it's only when you hit Jump-3
that you start seeing something resembling the mains in the starmaps of
traveller.

It doesn't really mean anything since we use a 2D hexmap, but it's kind
of interesting. If anyone's interested in looking at my render of some J2
clusters, take a peek at:

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/3d/587.3d.gif

(yes, I'm STILL messing with a 3D traveller game)

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:45:55 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Terran Jump Drive

On 13 Aug 97 at 11:08, Michael Barry wrote:

> Maybe Terran J-drives are similar. They're fine for microjumps
> around Sol system, but if you try to take them on more than a few
> successive parsec jumps, they turn into radioactive slag. That would
> delay interstellar exploration for some time after the discovery of
> 'jump drive', until a way of overcoming these difficulties is
> discovered. 

	K.W.Jeter's novel Bladerunner 3: Replicant Night had some 
interesting ideas concerning used jump drives - they became _the_ 
environmental hazard of the time. As jump drives are based (at 
least partially) on gravitics, they create a sharp bend in 
the space-time fabric.

	However, space-time fabric doesn't just bounce back into normal
shape once the drive is disengaged, but leaves a temporal anomaly
with the drive. After a couple of longer jumps, the drive and the
rest of the ship are shifting and flickering on and off existence
and produce severe temporal side effects.


/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:05:12 -0400
From: Paul Kestner <paully@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1675

This guy wrote some stuff which I'm quoting....
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules - Speed of Light Lag
> <<< snip >>>
> I suspect that mass detection of small ships even in TL 15 will be pretty
> close range - nowhere near AU ranges. The enormous gravity wave from the
> injumping ship though will be another matter. It could easily be detected
> and triangulated in the entire system. I suspect that this is the main
> reason fleets are able to detect one another and not simply pass through.
> 
   But 'High Guard' states that a incoming <in-jumping> squadrons using
black globe generators will achive surprise < NOT be detected >, for
the first round.   This inplys that either... 
        <A>. operating black globes damppen out a grav signiature.
  or... <B>. the gravity wave is not as large as you suggest.
   I would go with option B,  otherwise we have to account for how much
energy a black globe absorbes just sitting in a gravity well,  like on
a planetary surface.   And if it blocks gravity, why dosen't it get
flung of the planet by the rotation. 
	< Easy way to get to orbit , come to think of it....
	  LOOK Mother!!!!, NO Reaction Mass, No Energy usage,
  Heck, we even gained some energy in the storage capacitors...>

  I think the current explaination < hand waving > for black globes is
that they are a field of controlled 'free electrons' used to assorb and
redirect incoming, < or outgoing >, energy to the storage capacitors.
  We would have to set down how this affects gravitic actions.  
< Humm...  Can we comunicate thru a black globe by means of a
gravitic tractor or repulsor using morse code ?? >

< Another Humm...  Can we manuver a ship with a black globe set
 at 100 percent, < on full time >,  using thruster plates ?? >


My cat, the Emperor, demands feeding.  gottogo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:42:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Launch Facilities

> Milieu E21 should reflect these sort of factors either in
> (a) countries with good launch sites having involvement in Space
> (b) conflict between nations over good launch sites.
> E21 could see major conflict between Australia and Indonesia for the
> launch facilities on the Northern portion of the Australian continent.

Hello,
  N. Oz also has easy sea access for cheap transport of materials
down from the rest of the System. What prevents equatorial islands
in Indonesia from providing the same capability?

  Probably either coast of South America would be a great site,
but neither is likely to be able to compete economically with
whatever facility gets built in the continental U.S. Equally,
unless the U.S. wants Pacific coverage, there is unlikely to
be major civilian unloading capacity in Hawaii.

  A question for list discussion is whether major wars or
other catastrophes should be considered as solutions, as
these tend to expand the parameters of the discussion a
great deal. This also means that land grabs for sites
might be ignored, the rationale of the so-called New
World Order quite aside.

  Also, we know from Triplanetary that there are only six
major downports :)
        
        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
       
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:43:04 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: GNP, etc.

Hello,
>Subject: Milieu 21C
>
>The numbers should be closer to >
>Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
> China	        1600M		0.2

  To clarify here, is GNP-F meant to be a divisor or multiplier?
Not all of us have PE.

>For those anti-anericans, anti-west people out there, The USA has a current
>GNP on the area of 83 times China. The numbers indicate a LOT of levelling.

  Umm, I don't have to be anti-anything to point out that GDP is a
singularly unhelpful stat, and GNP is no real improvement. For the
"national power capability" debate (dice help us) actual potential
outputs count for a lot, among various "soft" factors.

>All of this assumes that there is not an anti-technology backlash.

  If there is, we end up as a sub-ordinate Vilani trading colony.

>Methinks the Russians would have a little to say about China going after
>Siberia. 

  Quite right, I hope. Methinks the Russians will recover before
the PRC gets enough modern weapons to prevent Massive Retaliation,
i.e., it won't happen in our lifetimes.

>would be a phenomenally daunting task.  

  Possibly counter-productive; to paraphrase, oxen don't have
political demands.

>Perhaps a more realistic future would be "sputter, sputter, collapse,
>sputter, sputter, violent uprising"

  Well, if the "winners" write the history, this could be the
unreported aspect of the "canonical" 21st C.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:45:25 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au> wrote

[snip]

> VILANI: Particle accelerators, plasma/fusion weapons - made effective
> because of huge battleships (10000+tons) with multiple batteries and very
> large crews.
> Initial advantage, but *only* where the few large battleships can be
> deployed in the right place at the right time. 

But in Imperium, the war game of the Interstellar wars, the Villani are
forbidden from building any ships larger than cruisers without the
Emperors permission.  Presumably the Ishimkarun does not trust his
provincial governors with heavy ships for fear they will use them to
rebel.  From what Traveller has said about the disintegrating nature of
the First Empire at this time this makes sense.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:44:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: 1st I.W.

Hello,
>VILANI: 
  Initially the porvincial governor has very little larger than a
light cruiser (to keep him dependent, from Imperium). The Vilani
have missile capabilities that the Terrans can't match. I don't
speak T4, so I wonder if this is a thruster plate issue, which
the Terrans presumably either don't have or remain behind in.

>raids and strikes disrupt the Vilani economy and society over whole
>neighbouring *sectors*. 

  This seems non-canonical (just mentioning it) and contradicts
the rationale that the governor at Dingir could understate the
threat until the province was largely gone, several wars later.

>Perhaps most importantly - the Vilani are demoralised by contact with a
>race that has developed jump drive without Vilani assistance. 

  How can you be demoralized, when you know it's not true? :) All
they did is buy the drive from some unauthorized vendor - and
they don't even pay royalties! "Hi, we just want to go to Vland
to pay our fees, uh, the fleet? In case we get lonely, yeah..."

>Indeed the Vilani must believe Terra to be a hell-world of bizarre
>technologies, sociopathic lunatics and pandemic plagues. No wonder the
>Vilani never launched an invasion of Earth! In fact, they may have

  Sounds likely to be accurate enough to me. Small wonder the
Solomani want off :)

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:51:11 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani

>In the last week I have discovered that my blood doesn't respond to normal
>clotting agents, I have almost no detectable blood pressure at rest, I have
>an unexplainable wave in my EEG, I am a bone marrow match with less than
>.01% of the world's population, and that I have managed to regenerate a
>major organ that was surgically removed.
>
>We are here, we come in peace,

Nah, just all side effects from *your* encounter with *them*; they were here,
they came in peace, and you were too groked out to notice. Remember one 
late night, coming up to that almost awake state by a couple of folks coming
into your hospital room? One of them loudly whispering, "Dammit, I'm a 
doctor, not a cave-bat! Oh! Uh, here, swallow this!"

The EEG  wave is much easier to explain, that's from decades if thinking 
about such imponderables as 0.1c rocks, fighter craft, and feudal techno-
cracies. It's kind of like having a secret handshake :)

>and when a bug-free edition of Traveller is
>released you will be welcomed into the cosmos.

Something even Starfleet's technology may not be able to produce <g>

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:24:02 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Hand waving

>I have heard this phrase many times, here and on other lists....what in
>hoppin' hell does it mean?
>
>Just Curious

Its a science term describing a scienntist describing his theory that has a
lot of holes and badly defined stuff. The scientist will typically show a
lot with his hands to cover up the lack of facts.
In traveller it refers to the technobabble we sometimes use to
scientifically justify some game mechanic or story background that doesn't
fit physical principles.

Why doesn't fuel efficiency go up with TL the same as with fusion drives?
Well, eh err the term fuel is actually hm err displacement mass ah yes
therefore the term displacement ton and um it creates a bubble of
spacetime-vortex-gravity-soliton-thingy-gizmo that enables the jump.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:21:11
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1675

>>
>>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations

>From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: E21 Nations
>
>>Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>
>>Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
>>- ----------------------------------------------------------
>>China		500M		1.30
>>India		700M		1.10
>
>The population drop has been mentioned elsewhere...nuff said, apart from
>the fact that both nations will have a lot of trouble tackling endemic
>corruption and religious/ethnic confict...India and Pakistan may well have
>nuked each other into tatters as well...

Yep. I have also seen some pretty horrifying numbers on how little China
is spending on education per capita. Also, didnt Hewlett-Packard just
bail on a big printer factory in India due to poor transport infrastructure ?

>>Indonesia	300M		0.70
>
>Politely disagree...Indonesia is a hotbed of ethnic and religious tensions,
>looking for an excuse to explode into conflict.  (My opinion only)
>Indonesia as an intact state may well not survive Suharto's death (with
>fairly ghastly security implications for it's large, largely empty and
>resource rich southern neighbour).

I find Indonesia an interesting case, because it is one of the few cases
where a nation state exists through the efforts of a single institution -
the armed forces (the ABRI). I find it easy to imagine that interstellar
states may exist where the Navy is and sees itself as the sole unifying factor
preserving a transtellar state. This runs into quite a bit of earlier thought
on the TML about an "Imperial" culture coming into existance - a cosmopolitan
culture transmitted through the trans-Imperial institutions of the IN, the
IISS, the TAS and the megacorporations.

A collapse of Indonesia into feuding ethnic and religious groups isnt the
bugbear for Australian military security some people think it is ...
the disruption from the refugees would arguably be greater. The air-sea
gap between the Indoneasian archipelago and anywhere worthwhile in
Australia is just too great (northern Australia is basically jungle and
desert, and the number of vital transport links can be counted on the
fingers of both hands). The resource richness of Australia is in many
ways a myth IMO, and the empty bits of Australia are empty for a damn
good reason (viz, there is no bloody water, and it is a huge long way
from anywhere).

>
>>EU		250M		0.60
>
>Populalation may be a little low, tho' Europe (esp. Western Europe) has had
>slightly negative growth rates for some time.  Does this include the former
>WarPac states.
>

The next issue is whether it includes the African Meditteranean states. Turkey
is trying real hard to be part of Europe, and Algeria and Morocco may join
up in the next 50 years or so, if they decide to become secular states.


>>Korean Union	120M		0.30
>
>After the generation it will no doubt take to rebuild the former North
>Korea from the ground up.
>

It wont take that long ... ten years at most. Lots of well-educated people
and the remnants of an industrial culture.

>
>Islamic Confederation - take the former Soviet central Asian republics, add
>Iran, perhaps Pakistan, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia...bind them in a very
>loose confederation and see what happens...should be interesting (don't get
>me wrong, I _like_ a lot of Islam's points - the lack of racism dictated by
>the Koran for one, and it's tradition of hospitality and charity...don't
>judge a religion by it's extremeists).

Lots of countries with little to no infrastructure, and lots of mutual
tensions. It's a Confederation that will spend more time on internal
emnities than on dealing with external matters. Lets not forget the
Sunni/Shi'ite split either.

>
>Or (flight of fancy)...the Pacific Rim Co-Prosperity Sphere:  China, Japan,
>Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, a few other (less prosperous) S.E.
>Asian nations, add Australia (you listening, Dr Mahathir?), Papua New
>Guinea and New Zealand.  Huge population, land (and sea) area, resource
>base, parts of the area have an extensive hi-technology
>infrastructure...and a genuine multi-racial coalition. 

I actually think that the SE Asian countries are going to act together
as a bloc more and more in the future. I can easily see that list happening,
but minus China, Japan and Korea. South East Asia has several common
interests (eg China and India), and common interests are always a good
start when considering co-operation.

Andy wrote on PE :

>
>It's not a "bug", it's a "feature", indeed an "opportunity". The factors
>used in the War system are intentionally extremely vague, and thus in some
>cases (as in the example you've picked) one has interpret the data
>accordingly. There is no 'fix' for such situations, unless you want to model
>in detail the precise ships, troops, etc. used. The whole point of the War
>system was to avoid this level of detail, while still giving a reasonable
>representation, so that the non-wargaming types could resolve the odd battle
>without needing pages and pages of complicated combat statistics and rules.
>Once could hand-wave and say the high tech guys need tons of equipment space
>for all their technical support, etc., while the low tech troops are packed,
>sardine-like, into as small a space as possible - perhaps the high tech
>troops expect individual cabins with the latest entertainment equipment! :-)
>I repeat, this is not a bug, but if you want to suggest alternative rules or
>interpretations, then the TML is the place to do it! ;-)
>
>Andy

PE did spend "pages and pages" on the War chapter - eight, plus just
under two pages of charts. It is a *lot* weaker than the rest of PE.

My quick fixes are ...

(1) Allow units to be built according to Orders of Magnitude ... any unit
that is outnumbered by 10:1 dies in the first round of combat. However,
this does let small worlds have military units and fight each other.

(2) Maintainence is 10% of unit cost per year at War readiness, and 2% of
unit cost per year when Mothballed. I find it a bad design decision that
a TL12 unit costs 2% of price per year at War maintainence while a TL6 unit
costs 0.2% of unit price per year at War maintainence.

(3) A unit needs it's (cost/200) in TRN points to transport.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1679
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 13 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1680



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

M: E21
Re : Grav focussed lasers
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?
Europe 2100
E21: China
Re: Cities in Flight
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: Disintegrators
Re: M:E21
Re: M:E21
Re: M:E21
Core sector data-Correction, mk0.9
Re: E21 Major/Minor races
Re: 1st I.W.
Auction Update #15: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1997 09:48:28 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: M: E21

Please could someone explain what's happened to Europe?  (I may have missed 
something here.)  I thought the current population of European Union member 
states alone is bigger than the US (about 340M), while the population of 
the whole European land mass stands at about 700M (I think).

Does anyone else perceive the influence of the nation state diminishing?  
The globalisation through trade, free movement of capital, etc, are 
increasing the influence of corporations.  Even now, I'm sure the biggest 
companies can affect countries' economies as much as their governments.

Case in point: Unilever is the world's tenth biggest employer - employing 
three times as many people as, for example, the entire British armed 
forces.  It's turnover is bigger than the GNP of some European countries 
(and there are twelve companies bigger than Unilever ... ).  More 
influential than many governments, I'd say.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:29:52 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : Grav focussed lasers

Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com> kindly answers my queries:

> Free Electron lasers work by firing electrons through a series
> of magnetic fields. As the electrons are deflected from their
> paths, they can be made to emit photons. You can "tune" the
> emissions by varying the deflection.

OK, thanks, I understand now.  The deceleration is uniform (assuming 
the electron beam doesn't spread) and the bremsstrahlung (oder 
Bremsstrahlung, wenn man Deutch sprecht!) will I think be 
monochromatic.


> I don't recall reading anything about bombarding anything with the
> electron beam. I thought it was just EM emission from electrons in
> a strong magnetic field - isn't this synchroton radiation or whatever ?
> Anyway, there wasn't any mention of bombarding metal crystals.

Blame the fact I learned physics from chemists -- I automatically 
remember chemical examples ;-)

> > This is a very good way of getting monochromatic (single frequency) 
> > X-ray radiation, but how do you use it to get a coherent (laser) beam?
> > Is it just a case of making an appropriate cavity?
> 
> Errr ... coherent light is single frequency, isn't it ? Or have I missed
> something here ?

Coherent light must be monochromatic, but I don't think the reverse 
is true.  If you combine photons of the same frequency and random 
phase, you ought to get a monochromatic beam of strongly varying
intensity, as the phase differences interfere.  Or am I forgetting 
something important here?

(Only really bothered by electron and proton waves recently...)


> Gravitational lensing sucks :-)

Magnetic lensing is warped ;-)

> Actually, I think it's a huge bodge in Traveller that you need this 
> tactic
> to get around the fact that UV lasers would never make good weapons at
> longer ranges.

For the record, why's that?  Is the dispersion likely to be higher 
than for e.g. IR/vis lasers?


> Gravitics in Traveller is a weird subject anyhow - has anyone ever
> answered how a ship's floor plates manage to switch off their field
> beyond a certain range
> from the ship ? Why aren't things external to the ship attracted to the
> floor plates ? Cause havoc in a star port, wouldn't it ? Or imagine
> turning on the g-lens in the laser and watching half the docking bay
> suddenly crash on top  of your nice shiny and hopelessly improbable
> TL15 laser array ?

As opposed to the highly likely TL9 jump drive, you mean? 8-)

I would assume that if one can produce both local decreases and 
increases in the gravitational field, it is possible to combine 
devices which do this so as to create highly intense local fields
which don't obey an inverse square law.

Crude example: let's take a point source which generates a change in 
gravitational field of +4g at 1 unit from the source.  Three units away 
from the source, we put point sources which generate -1g at 1 unit 
distance

Total field has the following values:

Distance  Field
   1      +3.75g
   2        0g
   4      -0.75g

whereas the unmodified 4g field would have generated

Distance  Field
   1       +4g
   2       +1g
   4      +0.25g

You can imagine a second set of small +ve point sources being used to 
"smooth out" the fluctuations from introducing the -ve points, and so
not quite ad infinitum, but perhaps until the effect is negligible.

I would expect equipment to produce intense local fields to require
volume proportional to G^3/2 where G is a measure of gravitational
field strength, or maybe G^2.  A large fraction of the power required
would be used in "damping" the field, using a 3D analogue of the 
above technique.

Nick




Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:39:55 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch):

> Don't free-electron lasers produce the coherent beam using "wigglers", a
> series of electro-magnets that "wiggle" a magnetic field along the beam
> path. I don't think the photons get bounced back and forth with magnetic
> fields, ;-> but somehow or other magnets are involved in creating and
> focusing the beam.

Thanks for the explanation (and thanks too to Andy Brick for a 
similar one).  A "wiggled" B-field would probably produce a 
laser-like effect -- the field intensity would govern wavelength
(for a given velocity of electron beam) and the wiggling would 
provide the coherence.

I *think* I understand now...

Nick
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 09:46:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:27:35, midnight@kagi.com Wrote...

> Personally, I wouldn't add it as a seperate skill unless the skill
> was harder to get/raise levels in (with an associated bonus to to
> hit/damage in unarmed combat). Unfortunately T4 does not have such
> a mechanism.
    That's kinda the point.  I'd like T4.1 to HAVE such a game mechanic.  As it
is now Brawling is more about what improvised weapons you can find at hand then
representing a serious Martial Artist who's spent decades learning their Style
and Mastering it.  It's a limitation that simply doesn't make sense, especially
when you realize that the development of Unarmed Combat Styles is a normal
development of any human culture.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:20:36 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Europe 2100

Europe is more concerned with expanding eastwards than southwards; 
the former USSR satellite states (as opposed to the post-Soviet 
states which came from the USSR) are mostly keen to join NATO and the 
EU, and the EU is mostly keen to have them.  The problem areas will be
the former Yugoslavian states, the Ukraine, Byelorussia, the CIS 
itself and near-eastern nations such as Turkey.

In particular, Greece will oppose the addition of Turkey to the EU 
until and unless the Turkish half of Cyprus is "returned", and 
probably beyond.  Greece doesn't enjoy wonderful relations with most 
of its other Balkan neighbours, either.  France may have something to 
say about the possibility of admitting Algeria ("Non", for instance)
and Scandinavia may stand somewhat aloof.

Internally, the trend towards smaller nation states will continue, 
with the U.K. becoming more of a federation than a single country, 
seccessionist movements in northern Italy and perhaps other places
becoming more vocal, and (unless good solutions are found) continued 
conflict in the Balkans, Northern Ireland (IRA) and the Basque region 
of Spain (ETA).

Making predictions about trouble-spots is troublesome, however, and 
I'd urge that M:E21 avoided it as far as possible.

Has anyone found data in S&A or AM6 which contradicts/supports what's 
already been said?


Nick
 
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:46:29 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: E21: China

One thing you might want to take into account is the fact that the "one 
child" rule in China has led to a massive imbalence in the sexes. As boys 
are considered more valuable that girls, i.e. you don't have to pay 
douries for boys, a lot of backwater China has a nice habit of drowing 
girls at birth. I also hear that they use ultrasound in the big citys to 
find out before birth.
Once all these men grow up and have trouble finding wives, imagine the 
ammount of trouble a china filled with testosterone will be in Asia.
Oh be aware that this is all based on vauge stuff I've heard in the news 
so is definately subject to error :-).

mark wilkin
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:08:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cities in Flight

In mail you write:

>>Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
>>Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
>>The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
>>Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.
>
> Without bashing that Norton guy/girl(?) too much the free traders were
> (according to MM in several interviews) based on Nicholas van Rijn et al
> from Polu Anderson.

Duh! How could I have forgotten Poul Anderson! You are correct, he's
another major source.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:20:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

In mail you write:

> Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com> writes:
>
>> You can generate low end X-ray lasers using cyclotron radiation 
>> using the "Free Electron Laser", which I believe were investigated
>> as part of SDI.
>
> Can you say any more about how these work?
>
> When I hear "free electron" I start thinking about the Fermi level of 
> metals; can you use metal crystals as an X-ray laser cavity pumped 
> with cyclotron radiation, lasing at the K-alpha frequency, or 
> something?

Free electron lasers use electron beams and varying magnetic fields so
that the "waving" of the electrons due to the mag fields (aided by the
resonances designed into the laser cavity) *directly* produce the
desired wavelength of EM radiation.

For a fixed installation, FE lasers are the best bet for high power. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:59:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

In mail you write:

>> I *am*. For any nucleus lighter than Fe56, the binding energy curve is
>> such that fissioning the nucleus *uses* energy, rather than produces
>> it. That's why you can get energy by *fusing* them. The new combination
>> has *less* binding energy than the old one.
>> 
>> Nuclei heavier than Fe56 will produce energy when fissioned. And Fe56
>> is the most stable configuration. Again, the new configuration has less
>> binding energy than the old one.
>> 
>> Remember, binding energy shows up as "missing mass". So by breaking a
>> nucleus down into protons and neutrons, you'll *only* produce energy if
>> the mass of that many free protons and neutrons exceeds the mass of the
>> nucleus you started with. And for anything up to Fe56 that's *not* true.
>> 
>> I also suspect that it may not be true of at least some heavier nuclei.
>> That is, breaking them up into smaller nuclei may release energy, but
>> not breaking them all the way down into individual nucleons. I don't
>> have a CRC handbook handy, so I can't check a table of isotopes.
>
> All true.  Disintegrators wreck havoc on that curve.  I'm not saying 
> that if you fission a carbon atom you get a lot of energy released, I 
> know better than that.  I'm saying that if you disintegrate it you 
> get a lot of energy released.
>
> How do disintegrators work?  

Supposedly they "supress" the nuclear force.

> Do they simply neutralize the SF as Traveller canon indicates? If this 
> is the case, then you are left with nothing but the proton-proton
> repulsion due to the Coulomb force, essentially equal the negative of
> the binding energy.  Again, the nucleus would fly apart violently, as
> would the First Law of Thermodynamics.

Easiest solution that I can see is that it's a "field effect", and
either "borrows" energy from the electrostatic repulsion, or some other
handwave. That would have the nucleons move apart, but not as
violently, and let the SF return after they were too far apart for it
to force them back together.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:41:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M:E21

In mail you write:

> prosperous are fairly steady.  And other factors are involved.  Recall
> that China, even with its Billion+ pop has a one-child rule.  If that
> changed anytime soon its poulation would really jump.  Better access to
> health care and a better diet would both decrease mortality and probably
> increase fertility, compounding the problem.  Also, since the one-child
> rule has led to a high rate of aborted female fetuses (presumable
> because males are better able to contribute financially to the family)
> if it changed, there would very likely be a dramatic change in the
> male-female ratio towards the female side, increasing pop. further.

Actually, the bit about aborted females is purely cultural. The culture
does *not* consider females to be of any worth. Several other male
dominated cultures are using sex selection, but since they don't have
limits on family size, it's not as noticeable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:34:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M:E21

In mail you write:

>  
>> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>> 
>> Union         Pop             GNP "factor"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> China         500M            1.30
>
> Why is china so low?  (I just picked up this thread, sorry if I
> missed something)  Shouldn't it be 1.5B?

China is exerting *major* efforts to lower population. As I recall,
couples are allowed *one* child. They know they've got too many people
and are willing to be pretty draconian about reducing population.

>> India         700M            1.10
>
> Ditto.  India is pushing a billion right now.

And trying to reduce population. They are quite likely to succeed, but
for a very unfortunate reason. They haven't gotten too far pushing
family planning. At the same time, though there's no official word
about it, the number of well-to-do Indians seeking treatment outside
the country for "odd" ailments that their doctors can't seem to figure
out is fairly high. And the cause of the "odd ailments" is AIDS...

A lot of the third world is going to have *major* population crashes
due to AIDS in the next decade or two.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:26:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M:E21

In mail you write:

> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>
> Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> China           500M            1.30
> India           700M            1.10
> USA             400M            0.90
> Indonesia       300M            0.70
> EU              250M            0.60
> Nigeria         200M            0.40
> Spanish SA      200M            0.35
> Japan           100M            0.30
> Korean Union    120M            0.30
>
> Corrections and additions, anyone?
>
> Rob

I'd bet on Brazil to be spacefaring long before the rest of South
America. And being on the Equator gives them an advantage.

Likewise, *somebody* is going to try setting up a launch site in New
Guinea (high mountains, on or near the equator). Australia would be a
good bet as a partner in such a venture. Possibly an Aussie/Japanese
partnership. 

I also don't see the Russians dropping out of the space business. Their
launching services are one of their major sources of foreign exchange
right now. 

One possible "joker" in the deck is that if space resources become
important before oil ceases to be a major commodity, the Arabs are
definitely smart enough (and rich enough!) to set up their own program
so that when oil is unimportant, they can use space resources of some
sort to maintain their income. Hell, they could be the ones to finally
fund Solar Power Satellites!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:20:34 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Core sector data-Correction, mk0.9

Please have look at the changes i made and lets discuss them. Any 
other corrections and additions are appreciated. 
Lets fix this stuff!


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:25:20 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: E21 Major/Minor races

<soapbox mode on>
- -> 
- -> Late 20th C "Major Races"
- -> 
- -> USA
- -> France
- -> Russia
- -> China
- -> 
- -> You will, of course, note that Germany and Japan are Minor races. (HA! in a
In your dreams.
France!
Hahaha!
Better make that the EU!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:33:41 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 1st I.W.

>Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:44:29 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: 1st I.W.

>Hello,
>>VILANI: 
>  Initially the porvincial governor has very little larger than a
>light cruiser (to keep him dependent, from Imperium). The Vilani
>have missile capabilities that the Terrans can't match. I don't
>speak T4, so I wonder if this is a thruster plate issue, which
>the Terrans presumably either don't have or remain behind in.

>>raids and strikes disrupt the Vilani economy and society over whole
>>neighbouring *sectors*. 

>  This seems non-canonical (just mentioning it) and contradicts
>the rationale that the governor at Dingir could understate the
>threat until the province was largely gone, several wars later.

Did you perchance catch my highly unoffical history of the IWs?
The way I saw things was that during the first three wars the
Vilani provincial government regarded the Terrans as little more
than a large pirate haven (incidentally probably not too far from
the truth) and treated it accordingly. The Terrans long range
raiding was at best pinpricks, but over the course of several
years, those pinpricks could start to add up and the Vilani's
war balance sheet move into the red. When this happened, the
Vilani governor would be willing to make peace for some minor
territorial losses.

>>Perhaps most importantly - the Vilani are demoralised by contact with a
>>race that has developed jump drive without Vilani assistance. 

>  How can you be demoralized, when you know it's not true? :) All
>they did is buy the drive from some unauthorized vendor - and
>they don't even pay royalties! "Hi, we just want to go to Vland
>to pay our fees, uh, the fleet? In case we get lonely, yeah..."

Almost certainly the concept that the Terrans could have developed
jump drive independently would have been inconcievable to the Vilani.
They would assume despite the Terrans claims that they must have
somehow copied it from them or one of their clients. Again another
factor in the Terrans favour "These Terrans just copy our technology,
they'll never actually develop any of their own".

>>Indeed the Vilani must believe Terra to be a hell-world of bizarre
>>technologies, sociopathic lunatics and pandemic plagues. No wonder the
>>Vilani never launched an invasion of Earth! In fact, they may have

The biowar element would be the Terrans "ace in the hole". Not only do
they have far superior biological and medical technology, but they also
have access to the largest resevior of pathogens and organisms specifically
evoloved to attack humans in the galaxy; and further more the Terrans have
natural immunity to most of them. The Terrans could easily geneer a pathogen
to attack the Vilani from some minor aliment such as flu or the common cold.
It would have virtually no effect on Terrans but be devastating to the
Vilani. Also since Vilani medical science is so far behind the Terrans,
the Vilani would find developing counter measures very hard. Take Typhus
for instance. Amongst populations with natural immunity the fatality rate
is something like 10% to 20% without treatment, with Terran populations
without natural immunity it can go as high as 40%; just what would it do
to the Vilani who have never encountered any organism remotely like it?
Small pox is another good one. The Terrans have a very good vaccine and
high natural immunity (if you catch chicken pox as a child you have a good
immunty against small pox). Drop a few aerosol bombs over some crowded
Vilani cities and bingo, a pandemic that puts the Black Death to shame.
I don't think the Terrans ever would have actually done that, but it would
make for a **very** powerful deterant. What I think the Terrans would have
done is used debilitating non-leathal biowar agents. Drop one on a world you
want to take and watch it's infrastucture collapse as they try to cope
with 80% of their population sick in bed. Sure they'll get better in a few
weeks, but by then the Terran troops have landed and are in control.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:30:24 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Auction Update #15: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Rules:   Update 8/13/97  -  07:00 EDT         

Please check to see if you have won any items in this auction.

If so and you are not bidding on anything else, please
email me your smail address along with a list of the items
won and I can get a postage amount.

If so and you are still bidding on other items, please
continue and email the above info when the bidding stops.

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) gone

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net     

GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        Buyout - $40.00 - gone
        
GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $45.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $40.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $38.00 cgriffen@cisco.com 
        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com 
                        
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/8) going x2
        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com 
        
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu gone

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                Co     
TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net gone

TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/11)
        $10.00 BFireforge@aol.com
                
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
        
TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $17.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/9) going x2
        $16.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com

TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com gone

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $16.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/11)
        $15.00 BFireforge@aol.com 
        
        

Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7) gone
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 4.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/10) going x1
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net 

GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
        $ 7.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        
GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $20.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $17.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $16.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com 
                
GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
        $11.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
        $10.00 egc@northnet.org 
                        
GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net gone

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $15.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/11)
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
        

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1680
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 13 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1681



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Messed-up 'Fencing style' message
Why Dulinor wasn't hunted down like a dog
Core Revision-repost
RE: E21 Countries, revision 1
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: M:E21
Re: Laser Whomp
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: Grav focussed lasers
Re: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires
Re: Messed-up 'Fencing style' message
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1675
Re: E21 Major/Minor races
Re: E21: China
Re: Disintegrators
Re: 1st I.W.
Re: Auction Update #15: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:51:27 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Messed-up 'Fencing style' message

Sorry about that, folks. They've been changing operating systems on me and
somehow my default editor had been set to one that I'm totally unfamiliar
with. In trying to extricate myself from it I accidentally sent out that
big massage.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:26:18 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Why Dulinor wasn't hunted down like a dog

Harold Hale writes:
>   Something goes terribly wrong with the public perception of the
>Imperial government by 1116, otherwise Dulinor would have been hunted
>down and killed for his actions against Strephon.   

What goes wrong is that the rumors about Varian's death split the rest of
the Imperium and prevents Lucan from having enough clout to defeat Dulinor.
And his subsequent errors of judgement dosen't help much. If Varian had
survived he'd propably even have accepted Strephon's return (He wouldn't
have any reason to fear him).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:14:32 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Core Revision-repost

It seems to not have worked the last time, so here's a second try!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:20:07 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: RE: E21 Countries, revision 1

"Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com> wrote:
>China's population is currently on the order of 1.2 billion.  It has
>grown from the 1 billion figure I've seen before.  Since it has grown,
>the one-child rule may not be working so well...  Total world population
>has also grown and is currently around 5 billion.  If anyone is
>interested, I can get more information on this (growth rates of
>countries, etc.).  The big thing that is coming up in the next several
>decades is depletion of world resources, so I've heard.

   China is a *big* place.  Crossing China is not like walking down to the 
corner chemist.  The one-child rule is in strict effect in the cities and 
other areas where Big Brother is close and hand and firmly in control.
Out in the boonies, implementation is still in progress.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:47:29 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson):

> Free electron lasers use electron beams and varying magnetic fields so
> that the "waving" of the electrons due to the mag fields (aided by the
> resonances designed into the laser cavity) *directly* produce the
> desired wavelength of EM radiation.
> 
> For a fixed installation, FE lasers are the best bet for high power. 

Thanks, Leonard.  Do you have any numbers on existing devices?

(Efficiency, frequencies, dispersion, power output, etc.)

Nick
 
Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:55:01 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21

>Does anyone else perceive the influence of the nation state diminishing?  
>The globalisation through trade, free movement of capital, etc, are 
>increasing the influence of corporations.  Even now, I'm sure the biggest 
>companies can affect countries' economies as much as their governments

I'd agree to this completely.  I think that the nation-state itself will
shrink to smaller units ( ie Scotland breaking from the UK ) and that
corporations ( particularly those who are spacefaring ) will rule the day
by and large.

As I posted in another post, the books of Allen Steele are a good example
of how I would invision this occuring.  In his books there is a rather
powerful corporation called SkyCorp which pretty much does as it pleases (
even though, in thsoe books, the governments are still more of a force to
be reckoned with than I believe they would be ).

John

It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:07:46 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Laser Whomp

>Look up Robert L. Forward's work on using black holes to warp space-time.
>In one of his science fiction novels he described a vehicle that utilized
>"Black Hole Dust" in a warp drive.
>
>Eric

Small black holes are dead thanks to Hawkins radiation but there are lots
of SF stories about them flying around.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:10:26 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

>Don't free-electron lasers produce the coherent beam using "wigglers", a
>series of electro-magnets that "wiggle" a magnetic field along the beam
>path. I don't think the photons get bounced back and forth with magnetic
>fields, ;-> but somehow or other magnets are involved in creating and
>focusing the beam.
>
>Eris
 Yes, thats how they do it but as the electrons are accelerated not in a
single direction a lot of the bremsstrahlung will be wasted and therefore
you'd never even in theory get above (or even near) 50% efficiency.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:01:40 +0000
From: "Martin F C Pickett" <ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav focussed lasers

"Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk> asked:
>> Actually, I think it's a huge bodge in Traveller that you need 
>> this tactic to get around the fact that UV lasers would never make 
>> good weapons at longer ranges.
>
>For the record, why's that?  Is the dispersion likely to be higher 
>than for e.g. IR/vis lasers?

As I'm sure eight people have already said by the time you read this, 
IIRC it's fundamentally because the diameter of the beam is 
dependant on wavelength.  A laser beam viewed side-on looks like a 
rubber strap that you've taken in both hands and stretched - widest 
at the ends and narrowest in the middle.  One end is the projecting 
lens/array, and the bit you want to hit the bad guys with is the 
'waist' (the narrowest part - AKA the focus).  As the wavelength 
decreases, the size of the waist for a given size of projecting lens 
decreases, but unfortunately the distance from the lens to the waist 
decreases.

In short, as you decrease the wavelength you move the focus closer.

It's also possible that I completely misremembered those lectures, 
it's been a while since it last mattered.

Martin
('90-94 BSc Optoelectronics & Laser Engineering - now in robotics/AI)

Martin Pickett 
ceemfcp@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are alive, well and living on Sylea 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:19:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires

>That way, if you want to drop TL 15 troops onto a planet, each unit
>with an offense and defense of 1 would take 75% less transport than
>the TL 12 unit would. If you decided to round up enough men on a TL 8
>world to make up the same amounto firepower, you'll need 120% more
>transport to carry them around.
>
>There should be a bonus to using high tech troops on lower tech
>worlds. Right now the way the rules are written, there is not.
>
>John Lansford

Yes you might be right but think of the PE rules as they stand:
As exchange rates favour buying military stuff from low TL systems and the
fact that the cost to move them is the same per combat factor then we've
suddenly got a reason why there are so many low TL planets in Trav. If you
want a ground war you simply buy mercenaries from the lowest TL possible
due to favourable exchange rates. Imagine huge starships filled with
battlecrazed stoneagers ready to do battle. Feels a bit like Warhammer 40K
AD don't it.

Yes I am insinuating that this PE rule is blatantly wrong and calling it
not a "bug" but a "feature" is laughable. The same was said about the
equally weird infrastructure not depending on pop but on size rule!
Please, admit your faults when they're pointed out instead of burying the
head in the sand.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:40:14 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Messed-up 'Fencing style' message

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 01:51 PM 8/13/97 +0200, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>Sorry about that, folks. They've been changing operating systems on me and
>somehow my default editor had been set to one that I'm totally unfamiliar
>with. In trying to extricate myself from it I accidentally sent out that
>big massage.
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
>'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
>                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:29:59 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1675

>   But 'High Guard' states that a incoming <in-jumping> squadrons using
>black globe generators will achive surprise < NOT be detected >, for
>the first round.   This inplys that either...
>        <A>. operating black globes damppen out a grav signiature.
>  or... <B>. the gravity wave is not as large as you suggest.
>   I would go with option B,  otherwise we have to account for how much
>energy a black globe absorbes just sitting in a gravity well,  like on
>a planetary surface.   And if it blocks gravity, why dosen't it get
>flung of the planet by the rotation.

When the black globes are fully ON they're ignoring gravity according to CT
canon (I'm not shure where I read it but it's in some pretty old stuff -
possibly JTAS). They're not gaining any energy this way (I'd say) because
conservation of potential energy is totally broken by J-drives,
thrusterplates etc anyways. Stars proper motion seem also to be ignored
when jumping etc.

I tend to ignore black globes as much as I can as they invoke relativistic
handwaving from square one.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:33 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: E21 Major/Minor races

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 01:25 PM 8/13/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
><soapbox mode on>
>-> 
>-> Late 20th C "Major Races"
>-> 
>-> USA
>-> France
>-> Russia
>-> China
>-> 
>-> You will, of course, note that Germany and Japan are Minor races. (HA! in a
>In your dreams.
>France!
>Hahaha!
>Better make that the EU!
>
>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>-- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
>---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>
>-----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:38:45 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: E21: China

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 11:46 AM 8/13/97 +0100, mark.wilkin wrote:
>One thing you might want to take into account is the fact that the "one 
>child" rule in China has led to a massive imbalence in the sexes. As boys 
>are considered more valuable that girls, i.e. you don't have to pay 
>douries for boys, a lot of backwater China has a nice habit of drowing 
>girls at birth. I also hear that they use ultrasound in the big citys to 
>find out before birth.
>Once all these men grow up and have trouble finding wives, imagine the 
>ammount of trouble a china filled with testosterone will be in Asia.
>Oh be aware that this is all based on vauge stuff I've heard in the news 
>so is definately subject to error :-).
>
>mark wilkin
> 
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:43 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 12:59 AM 8/13/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>> I *am*. For any nucleus lighter than Fe56, the binding energy curve is
>>> such that fissioning the nucleus *uses* energy, rather than produces
>>> it. That's why you can get energy by *fusing* them. The new combination
>>> has *less* binding energy than the old one.
>>> 
>>> Nuclei heavier than Fe56 will produce energy when fissioned. And Fe56
>>> is the most stable configuration. Again, the new configuration has less
>>> binding energy than the old one.
>>> 
>>> Remember, binding energy shows up as "missing mass". So by breaking a
>>> nucleus down into protons and neutrons, you'll *only* produce energy if
>>> the mass of that many free protons and neutrons exceeds the mass of the
>>> nucleus you started with. And for anything up to Fe56 that's *not* true.
>>> 
>>> I also suspect that it may not be true of at least some heavier nuclei.
>>> That is, breaking them up into smaller nuclei may release energy, but
>>> not breaking them all the way down into individual nucleons. I don't
>>> have a CRC handbook handy, so I can't check a table of isotopes.
>>
>> All true.  Disintegrators wreck havoc on that curve.  I'm not saying 
>> that if you fission a carbon atom you get a lot of energy released, I 
>> know better than that.  I'm saying that if you disintegrate it you 
>> get a lot of energy released.
>>
>> How do disintegrators work?  
>
>Supposedly they "supress" the nuclear force.
>
>> Do they simply neutralize the SF as Traveller canon indicates? If this 
>> is the case, then you are left with nothing but the proton-proton
>> repulsion due to the Coulomb force, essentially equal the negative of
>> the binding energy.  Again, the nucleus would fly apart violently, as
>> would the First Law of Thermodynamics.
>
>Easiest solution that I can see is that it's a "field effect", and
>either "borrows" energy from the electrostatic repulsion, or some other
>handwave. That would have the nucleons move apart, but not as
>violently, and let the SF return after they were too far apart for it
>to force them back together.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:40:22 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: 1st I.W.

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 11:33 PM 8/13/97 +1200, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>>Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:44:29 -0700
>>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Subject: 1st I.W.
>
>>Hello,
>>>VILANI: 
>>  Initially the porvincial governor has very little larger than a
>>light cruiser (to keep him dependent, from Imperium). The Vilani
>>have missile capabilities that the Terrans can't match. I don't
>>speak T4, so I wonder if this is a thruster plate issue, which
>>the Terrans presumably either don't have or remain behind in.
>
>>>raids and strikes disrupt the Vilani economy and society over whole
>>>neighbouring *sectors*. 
>
>>  This seems non-canonical (just mentioning it) and contradicts
>>the rationale that the governor at Dingir could understate the
>>threat until the province was largely gone, several wars later.
>
>Did you perchance catch my highly unoffical history of the IWs?
>The way I saw things was that during the first three wars the
>Vilani provincial government regarded the Terrans as little more
>than a large pirate haven (incidentally probably not too far from
>the truth) and treated it accordingly. The Terrans long range
>raiding was at best pinpricks, but over the course of several
>years, those pinpricks could start to add up and the Vilani's
>war balance sheet move into the red. When this happened, the
>Vilani governor would be willing to make peace for some minor
>territorial losses.
>
>>>Perhaps most importantly - the Vilani are demoralised by contact with a
>>>race that has developed jump drive without Vilani assistance. 
>
>>  How can you be demoralized, when you know it's not true? :) All
>>they did is buy the drive from some unauthorized vendor - and
>>they don't even pay royalties! "Hi, we just want to go to Vland
>>to pay our fees, uh, the fleet? In case we get lonely, yeah..."
>
>Almost certainly the concept that the Terrans could have developed
>jump drive independently would have been inconcievable to the Vilani.
>They would assume despite the Terrans claims that they must have
>somehow copied it from them or one of their clients. Again another
>factor in the Terrans favour "These Terrans just copy our technology,
>they'll never actually develop any of their own".
>
>>>Indeed the Vilani must believe Terra to be a hell-world of bizarre
>>>technologies, sociopathic lunatics and pandemic plagues. No wonder the
>>>Vilani never launched an invasion of Earth! In fact, they may have
>
>The biowar element would be the Terrans "ace in the hole". Not only do
>they have far superior biological and medical technology, but they also
>have access to the largest resevior of pathogens and organisms specifically
>evoloved to attack humans in the galaxy; and further more the Terrans have
>natural immunity to most of them. The Terrans could easily geneer a pathogen
>to attack the Vilani from some minor aliment such as flu or the common cold.
>It would have virtually no effect on Terrans but be devastating to the
>Vilani. Also since Vilani medical science is so far behind the Terrans,
>the Vilani would find developing counter measures very hard. Take Typhus
>for instance. Amongst populations with natural immunity the fatality rate
>is something like 10% to 20% without treatment, with Terran populations
>without natural immunity it can go as high as 40%; just what would it do
>to the Vilani who have never encountered any organism remotely like it?
>Small pox is another good one. The Terrans have a very good vaccine and
>high natural immunity (if you catch chicken pox as a child you have a good
>immunty against small pox). Drop a few aerosol bombs over some crowded
>Vilani cities and bingo, a pandemic that puts the Black Death to shame.
>I don't think the Terrans ever would have actually done that, but it would
>make for a **very** powerful deterant. What I think the Terrans would have
>done is used debilitating non-leathal biowar agents. Drop one on a world you
>want to take and watch it's infrastucture collapse as they try to cope
>with 80% of their population sick in bed. Sure they'll get better in a few
>weeks, but by then the Terran troops have landed and are in control.
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>
>****************************************************************************
>The longest distance between two points is with children.
>****************************************************************************
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:40:27 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Auction Update #15: RPG Items (AD&D, Space 1889, Traveller)

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 07:30 AM 8/13/97 -0400, Kevin Combs wrote:
>Rules:   Update 8/13/97  -  07:00 EDT         
>
>Please check to see if you have won any items in this auction.
>
>If so and you are not bidding on anything else, please
>email me your smail address along with a list of the items
>won and I can get a postage amount.
>
>If so and you are still bidding on other items, please
>continue and email the above info when the bidding stops.
>
>1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
>increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.
>
>2. Buyout offers will be considered.
>
>3. Buyer pays shipping.
>
>4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
>hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
>checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.
>
>5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 
>
>6. This auction will be updated every day.
>
>7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
>the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
>the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.
>
>8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.
>
>9. The following conditions will be used:   
>    (MN) Item is perfect.
>    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
>    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
>    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
>         all counters are present.
>    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  
>
>Traveller Related Items
>DGP     101 Vehicles                              
>        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com (8/5) gone
>
>DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
>        Buyout - $12.00 - gone
>
>DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
>        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
>        $16.00 john35@wharton.upenn.edu
>        $15.00 rbeck@pop.iquest.net     
>
>GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
>        does not have the tech manual or combat
>        chart)
>        Buyout - $40.00 - gone
>        
>GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
>        marks and is slightly pushed in)
>        $45.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
>        $40.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        $38.00 cgriffen@cisco.com 
>        $36.00 rmorris@wyoming.com 
>                        
>Judge's 
>Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
>        $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu (8/8) going x2
>        $ 6.00 argent_warning@rocketmail.com 
>        
>Judge's 
>Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
>        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu gone
>
>Martian 
>Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
>        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
>        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
>        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
>        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
>        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
>        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
>        total of 228 painted figures.)
>        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
>        
>
>AD&D Related Items                                Co     
>TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
>        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net gone
>
>TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
>        $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/11)
>        $10.00 BFireforge@aol.com
>                
>TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
>        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
>        $11.00 tarquin@ro.com 
>        $10.00 stackmc@aol.com
>        $10.00 astinus@juno.com
>        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com
>        
>TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
>        $17.00 EugHarvey@aol.com (8/9) going x2
>        $16.00 tarquin@ro.com 
>        $12.00 stackmc@aol.com
>        $12.00 tarquin@ro.com
>        $11.00 lazascan@aol.com
>
>TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
>TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
>        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com gone
>
>TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
>        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
>        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 
>
>TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00
>
>TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
>        $16.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/11)
>        $15.00 BFireforge@aol.com 
>        
>        
>
>Space 1889 Related Items
>GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
>        $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/7) gone
>        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        
>GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
>        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>        
>GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
>        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        
>GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
>        $ 4.00 Thorinn3@aol.com (8/10) going x1
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net 
>
>GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
>        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net 
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 5.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        
>GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
>        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
>        $ 7.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>        
>GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
>        figures)
>        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
>        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
>        $ 9.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca 
>        $ 8.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net  
>                
>GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
>        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com (8/8) going x2
>        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Referee's Screen                          
>        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>
>GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
>        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
>        $20.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
>        $17.00 pnewman@alaska.net
>        $16.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
>        $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com 
>                
>GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
>        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11)
>        $11.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
>        $10.00 egc@northnet.org 
>                        
>GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
>        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
>        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
>        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
>
>GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
>        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net gone
>
>GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
>        unpainted figures)
>        $15.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us (8/11)
>        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
>        $ 6.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net
>        $ 5.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com
>        $ 4.00 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca
>        
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1681
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 13 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1682



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Core sector data-Correction, mk0.9
Re: Cities in Flight
Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: M: E21
Re: Grav Focussed Lasers
Re: M:E21
Re: M:E21
Re: Europe 2100
Re: M:E21
Re: Re : Grav focussed lasers
test
re:E21 Countries
Re: Huh? :)
Re: Arcologies
Re: M:E21
Re: Solomani
Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...
Re: Arcologies
(Fwd) Re: How to unsubscribe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:38:49 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Core sector data-Correction, mk0.9

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 01:20 PM 8/13/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>Please have look at the changes i made and lets discuss them. Any 
>other corrections and additions are appreciated. 
>Lets fix this stuff!
>
>
>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>-- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
>---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>
>-----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:38:59 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Cities in Flight

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 01:08 AM 8/13/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>Free Traders are mostly based on Andre Norton stories (especially the
>>>Solar Queen books) and possibly on Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy".
>>>The Scout service is almost certainly based on Norton's "First In
>>>Scouts" which are referred to in many of her SF novels.
>>
>> Without bashing that Norton guy/girl(?) too much the free traders were
>> (according to MM in several interviews) based on Nicholas van Rijn et al
>> from Polu Anderson.
>
>Duh! How could I have forgotten Poul Anderson! You are correct, he's
>another major source.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:38:24 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 09:46 AM 8/13/97 GMT, s.johnson107@genie.com wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:27:35, midnight@kagi.com Wrote...
>
>> Personally, I wouldn't add it as a seperate skill unless the skill
>> was harder to get/raise levels in (with an associated bonus to to
>> hit/damage in unarmed combat). Unfortunately T4 does not have such
>> a mechanism.
>    That's kinda the point.  I'd like T4.1 to HAVE such a game mechanic.  As it
>is now Brawling is more about what improvised weapons you can find at hand then
>representing a serious Martial Artist who's spent decades learning their Style
>and Mastering it.  It's a limitation that simply doesn't make sense, especially
>when you realize that the development of Unarmed Combat Styles is a normal
>development of any human culture.
>
>Stephen
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:37:34 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 10:39 AM 8/13/97 +0100, Nick Munn wrote:
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch):
>
>> Don't free-electron lasers produce the coherent beam using "wigglers", a
>> series of electro-magnets that "wiggle" a magnetic field along the beam
>> path. I don't think the photons get bounced back and forth with magnetic
>> fields, ;-> but somehow or other magnets are involved in creating and
>> focusing the beam.
>
>Thanks for the explanation (and thanks too to Andy Brick for a 
>similar one).  A "wiggled" B-field would probably produce a 
>laser-like effect -- the field intensity would govern wavelength
>(for a given velocity of electron beam) and the wiggling would 
>provide the coherence.
>
>I *think* I understand now...
>
>Nick
>Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
>Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:37:02 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: M: E21

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.At 09:48 AM 8/13/97 +0100, Mark Samuels wrote:
>
>Please could someone explain what's happened to Europe?  (I may have missed 
>something here.)  I thought the current population of European Union member 
>states alone is bigger than the US (about 340M), while the population of 
>the whole European land mass stands at about 700M (I think).
>
>Does anyone else perceive the influence of the nation state diminishing?  
>The globalisation through trade, free movement of capital, etc, are 
>increasing the influence of corporations.  Even now, I'm sure the biggest 
>companies can affect countries' economies as much as their governments.
>
>Case in point: Unilever is the world's tenth biggest employer - employing 
>three times as many people as, for example, the entire British armed 
>forces.  It's turnover is bigger than the GNP of some European countries 
>(and there are twelve companies bigger than Unilever ... ).  More 
>influential than many governments, I'd say.
>
>Mark
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:38:54 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Grav Focussed Lasers

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.




At 01:20 AM 8/13/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com> writes:
>>
>>> You can generate low end X-ray lasers using cyclotron radiation 
>>> using the "Free Electron Laser", which I believe were investigated
>>> as part of SDI.
>>
>> Can you say any more about how these work?
>>
>> When I hear "free electron" I start thinking about the Fermi level of 
>> metals; can you use metal crystals as an X-ray laser cavity pumped 
>> with cyclotron radiation, lasing at the K-alpha frequency, or 
>> something?
>
>Free electron lasers use electron beams and varying magnetic fields so
>that the "waving" of the electrons due to the mag fields (aided by the
>resonances designed into the laser cavity) *directly* produce the
>desired wavelength of EM radiation.
>
>For a fixed installation, FE lasers are the best bet for high power. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:07 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: M:E21

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 01:41 AM 8/13/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> prosperous are fairly steady.  And other factors are involved.  Recall
>> that China, even with its Billion+ pop has a one-child rule.  If that
>> changed anytime soon its poulation would really jump.  Better access to
>> health care and a better diet would both decrease mortality and probably
>> increase fertility, compounding the problem.  Also, since the one-child
>> rule has led to a high rate of aborted female fetuses (presumable
>> because males are better able to contribute financially to the family)
>> if it changed, there would very likely be a dramatic change in the
>> male-female ratio towards the female side, increasing pop. further.
>
>Actually, the bit about aborted females is purely cultural. The culture
>does *not* consider females to be of any worth. Several other male
>dominated cultures are using sex selection, but since they don't have
>limits on family size, it's not as noticeable.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:26 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: M:E21

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 01:34 AM 8/13/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>  
>>> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>>> 
>>> Union         Pop             GNP "factor"
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>> China         500M            1.30
>>
>> Why is china so low?  (I just picked up this thread, sorry if I
>> missed something)  Shouldn't it be 1.5B?
>
>China is exerting *major* efforts to lower population. As I recall,
>couples are allowed *one* child. They know they've got too many people
>and are willing to be pretty draconian about reducing population.
>
>>> India         700M            1.10
>>
>> Ditto.  India is pushing a billion right now.
>
>And trying to reduce population. They are quite likely to succeed, but
>for a very unfortunate reason. They haven't gotten too far pushing
>family planning. At the same time, though there's no official word
>about it, the number of well-to-do Indians seeking treatment outside
>the country for "odd" ailments that their doctors can't seem to figure
>out is fairly high. And the cause of the "odd ailments" is AIDS...
>
>A lot of the third world is going to have *major* population crashes
>due to AIDS in the next decade or two.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:38:30 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Europe 2100

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.


At 11:20 AM 8/13/97 +0100, Nick Munn wrote:
>Europe is more concerned with expanding eastwards than southwards; 
>the former USSR satellite states (as opposed to the post-Soviet 
>states which came from the USSR) are mostly keen to join NATO and the 
>EU, and the EU is mostly keen to have them.  The problem areas will be
>the former Yugoslavian states, the Ukraine, Byelorussia, the CIS 
>itself and near-eastern nations such as Turkey.
>
>In particular, Greece will oppose the addition of Turkey to the EU 
>until and unless the Turkish half of Cyprus is "returned", and 
>probably beyond.  Greece doesn't enjoy wonderful relations with most 
>of its other Balkan neighbours, either.  France may have something to 
>say about the possibility of admitting Algeria ("Non", for instance)
>and Scandinavia may stand somewhat aloof.
>
>Internally, the trend towards smaller nation states will continue, 
>with the U.K. becoming more of a federation than a single country, 
>seccessionist movements in northern Italy and perhaps other places
>becoming more vocal, and (unless good solutions are found) continued 
>conflict in the Balkans, Northern Ireland (IRA) and the Basque region 
>of Spain (ETA).
>
>Making predictions about trouble-spots is troublesome, however, and 
>I'd urge that M:E21 avoided it as far as possible.
>
>Has anyone found data in S&A or AM6 which contradicts/supports what's 
>already been said?
>
>
>Nick
> 
>Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
>Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:37 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: M:E21

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.



At 01:26 AM 8/13/97 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations
>>
>> Union           Pop             GNP "factor"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> China           500M            1.30
>> India           700M            1.10
>> USA             400M            0.90
>> Indonesia       300M            0.70
>> EU              250M            0.60
>> Nigeria         200M            0.40
>> Spanish SA      200M            0.35
>> Japan           100M            0.30
>> Korean Union    120M            0.30
>>
>> Corrections and additions, anyone?
>>
>> Rob
>
>I'd bet on Brazil to be spacefaring long before the rest of South
>America. And being on the Equator gives them an advantage.
>
>Likewise, *somebody* is going to try setting up a launch site in New
>Guinea (high mountains, on or near the equator). Australia would be a
>good bet as a partner in such a venture. Possibly an Aussie/Japanese
>partnership. 
>
>I also don't see the Russians dropping out of the space business. Their
>launching services are one of their major sources of foreign exchange
>right now. 
>
>One possible "joker" in the deck is that if space resources become
>important before oil ceases to be a major commodity, the Arabs are
>definitely smart enough (and rich enough!) to set up their own program
>so that when oil is unimportant, they can use space resources of some
>sort to maintain their income. Hell, they could be the ones to finally
>fund Solar Power Satellites!
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:37:48 +0800
From: sg <cremark@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Re : Grav focussed lasers

Please remove me from your mailing. I do wish to have any more mail to my
account.

At 10:29 AM 8/13/97 +0100, Nick Munn wrote:
>Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com> kindly answers my queries:
>
>> Free Electron lasers work by firing electrons through a series
>> of magnetic fields. As the electrons are deflected from their
>> paths, they can be made to emit photons. You can "tune" the
>> emissions by varying the deflection.
>
>OK, thanks, I understand now.  The deceleration is uniform (assuming 
>the electron beam doesn't spread) and the bremsstrahlung (oder 
>Bremsstrahlung, wenn man Deutch sprecht!) will I think be 
>monochromatic.
>
>
>> I don't recall reading anything about bombarding anything with the
>> electron beam. I thought it was just EM emission from electrons in
>> a strong magnetic field - isn't this synchroton radiation or whatever ?
>> Anyway, there wasn't any mention of bombarding metal crystals.
>
>Blame the fact I learned physics from chemists -- I automatically 
>remember chemical examples ;-)
>
>> > This is a very good way of getting monochromatic (single frequency) 
>> > X-ray radiation, but how do you use it to get a coherent (laser) beam?
>> > Is it just a case of making an appropriate cavity?
>> 
>> Errr ... coherent light is single frequency, isn't it ? Or have I missed
>> something here ?
>
>Coherent light must be monochromatic, but I don't think the reverse 
>is true.  If you combine photons of the same frequency and random 
>phase, you ought to get a monochromatic beam of strongly varying
>intensity, as the phase differences interfere.  Or am I forgetting 
>something important here?
>
>(Only really bothered by electron and proton waves recently...)
>
>
>> Gravitational lensing sucks :-)
>
>Magnetic lensing is warped ;-)
>
>> Actually, I think it's a huge bodge in Traveller that you need this 
>> tactic
>> to get around the fact that UV lasers would never make good weapons at
>> longer ranges.
>
>For the record, why's that?  Is the dispersion likely to be higher 
>than for e.g. IR/vis lasers?
>
>
>> Gravitics in Traveller is a weird subject anyhow - has anyone ever
>> answered how a ship's floor plates manage to switch off their field
>> beyond a certain range
>> from the ship ? Why aren't things external to the ship attracted to the
>> floor plates ? Cause havoc in a star port, wouldn't it ? Or imagine
>> turning on the g-lens in the laser and watching half the docking bay
>> suddenly crash on top  of your nice shiny and hopelessly improbable
>> TL15 laser array ?
>
>As opposed to the highly likely TL9 jump drive, you mean? 8-)
>
>I would assume that if one can produce both local decreases and 
>increases in the gravitational field, it is possible to combine 
>devices which do this so as to create highly intense local fields
>which don't obey an inverse square law.
>
>Crude example: let's take a point source which generates a change in 
>gravitational field of +4g at 1 unit from the source.  Three units away 
>from the source, we put point sources which generate -1g at 1 unit 
>distance
>
>Total field has the following values:
>
>Distance  Field
>   1      +3.75g
>   2        0g
>   4      -0.75g
>
>whereas the unmodified 4g field would have generated
>
>Distance  Field
>   1       +4g
>   2       +1g
>   4      +0.25g
>
>You can imagine a second set of small +ve point sources being used to 
>"smooth out" the fluctuations from introducing the -ve points, and so
>not quite ad infinitum, but perhaps until the effect is negligible.
>
>I would expect equipment to produce intense local fields to require
>volume proportional to G^3/2 where G is a measure of gravitational
>field strength, or maybe G^2.  A large fraction of the power required
>would be used in "damping" the field, using a 3D analogue of the 
>above technique.
>
>Nick
>
>
>
>
>Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
>Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:53:01 +0000
From: "Doctor Vince" <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: test

please excuse the bandwidth waste...

vince

------------------------------

Date: 13 Aug 1997 10:29 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:E21 Countries

Well, I see what a barrel 'o monkeys can be gotten from
worrying over the fate of countries.  My own fault.

Maybe the result of this is that countries per se should
be ignored, and the focus should rather be on multinational
companies and agencies which have spaceborne operations.
Bonus: if the companies don't currently exist, then noone
can argue about them.

Company  	Builds
- -------------------------------------
Maglev	 	Launch	Engines 
On~oco	 	Orbital Engines
Eucliptic	Belter installations
OshimaCo	Orbital installations
...		Landing systems
...		Surface installations
...		Mining equipment
???

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:05:09 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Huh? :)

At 07:35 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Maybe they're accounting for the CocaCola machines, movie theaters,
>>videogames, nautilus machines etc that any self respecting TL 15 unit
>>requires ;)
>
>  I understood TL 15 BD included all that :)

Would RC BattleDress have Pepsi?
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:01:18 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Arcologies

Note that here in California we're starting to see apartment complexes
built as part of shopping malls.. except to work, you rarely have to leave
your semi-secure community.

IMHO, this is how we'll beging the transition into arcology-style housing,
Ghu knows I wouldn't mind it.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:07:27 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: M:E21

At 02:08 PM 8/13/97 -0900, you wrote:
>
>>Union		Pop		GNP "factor"
>>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>>USA		400M		0.90
>                ^^^
>I'm not sure of this, what's the population of the USA at the moment?

About 265 Million as of 1996 (US Census)
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:10:45 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani

At 01:51 AM 8/13/97 -0400, Paul wrote:

>Nah, just all side effects from *your* encounter with *them*; they were here,
>they came in peace, and you were too groked out to notice. Remember one 
>late night, coming up to that almost awake state by a couple of folks coming
>into your hospital room? One of them loudly whispering, "Dammit, I'm a 
>doctor, not a cave-bat! Oh! Uh, here, swallow this!"

Actually, the line was more like:  "Dammint, I'm a respiratory technician,
not a blood tech!  What do you mean, you're a hard stick?"

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:42:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Michael Barry wrote:

> Excuse ignorance, but what the #@%& is a 'Wendelstein'? And what use is a
> Tokamak as a power generator if it consumes 10-100 times more energy than
> it generates? 

	First, the Wendelstein is a 'stellarator' type fusion test
reactor, which uses external magnetic coils to compress and contain the
plasma in a toroidal configuration. A Tokomak uses the plasma itself to
compress and contain itself by running large currents through the plasma
generating the requisite magnetic fields.

	In theory, a Tokomak is capable of self sustaining fusion reaction
with fewer parts to the reactor, and thus would be more reliable. Alas, we
have found that, with fusion, the leap twixt theory and practice has been
a long hard one. Current designs do take more energy to run than they
produce. But, once started, you can generate larger and larger magnetic
fields by feeding the current the thing is producing back into itself,
thus, a self sustaining tokomak will be more stable than one that isn't
self sustaining.

However, I'm ignorant of all but the most basic details of current fusion
research, and so cannot begin to claim thatI know that one is inherently
better than the other.

I do know that the 'stellrator' type of reactor wasn't at all feasable
until relatively recent advances in magnetic technology, and shows a great
deal of promise _if_ we can get room temp, or near room temp
superconductors.  

Both types of reactor are still dealing with the major problem of keeping
the plasma from contacting the walls of the plasma chamber, simultaneously
cooling the plasma tremendously, and contaminating it horribly.
Controlling the plasma is on the order of balancing a broomstick on your
fingertip...while riding in the back seat of an F-14 during a dogfight.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:35:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Arcologies

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:
 
>   The exception would be the logical extension in NA of the
> gated community concept. Much more likely, especially as it
> would provably be a short-term economically viable project
> before it occurred, but it implies a nasty degeneration of
> quality of life (perceived or actual) before the wealthy 
> upper-middle class would want to be put in (to them) a 
> sardine can.
> 

Jerry Pournelle wrote a novel using precisely that concept some years
ago...which title escapes me now (Oath of Fealty perhaps?), but the
Arcologies were the comfortable, secure suburbia. And we're heading that
way faster than you know... 

Finally, people seem to have a view of arcologies that is extensively
dystopian...there's no reason on earth that an arcology needs to be a
'sardine can' Most people living in luxury high rises don't seem to regard
them as 'sardine cans', and an arcology isn't much more than an apartment
highrise, with an office building attached, sitting on top of the Mall Of
America...with a few grocery stores in there, and it's own subway station.

Think of how much time we already spend indoors in an urban environment.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:39:03 +0100
From: "Nick Munn" <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: How to unsubscribe

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
To:            n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
From:          cremark@pacific.net.sg
Reply-to:      cremark@pacific.net.sg
Subject:       Re: How to unsubscribe
Date:          Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:31:14 +0800

THIS IS A WARNING
Do not keep sending me mail if you do not know me.
Only people whom I know are welcome to send me mail. 

"KEEP OUT OF MY E_MAIL ADDRESS"

All Mail will be reported...... 

- ------------------------------------------------------

To which I say, I sent you precisely one email telling you how to 
unsubscribe to a list.  In the process of asking how this was done, 
you sent junk email to tens, hundreds of people, not once but several 
times.  Please remove the plank from your eye.

Here are the instructions I tried to send to avoid wasting bandwidth. 
Please use them.

And don't come back.

- -------------------------------------------------------


To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1682
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Wednesday, August 13 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1683



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: X-Boat List
RE: E21 Countries, revision 1
1st IW: The Bio-War
Population
Re: Wendelstein? 
Real data for stars and planets - non canonical
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War
Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list
Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?
Re: Population
Re: Battledress Soda
Re: Arcologies
Re: Disintegrators
Re:Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>
Re: The Interstellar Wars
Re: X-Boat List
Re:Who started the Interstellar War etc...
Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list
Re: M: E21
Re: Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:56:45 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> wrote concerning TML content,
> It is all useful!  Almost all of it is interesting!

[Welcome back, Doug!]
I find about half to 2/3rds of it interesting and/or useful (less when
there's a big rules or hardware debate, more when there's something like
the M21 discussion).  That's fine; I just skip the rest.

> To make my point, this is what I enjoy about each of Traveller's
>"periods"
>
> Classic:  The setting, espically the Spinward Marches through the
> Fifth Frontier War.

Definitely.  This was the only period I've run/played in, though Pocket
Empires is changing that.  It's also got a more upbeat feel than MT/TNE,
which can be refreshing (and which is back in M0).

> Mega:  The DGP background publications (Alien Books, WBH, etc..) and
> the task system.

Just the former for me, really.  Though the Rebellion Sourcebook got me
more interested in the political side of things than I had been
previously.

> TNE:  The harder edge to technology, increased detail in developing
> starships and weapons using FFS.

Hm.  TNE is the one I mostly just pick odd bits from.

> T4/M:0:  The different look to the Imperium, the feeling of getting in
> on the ground floor as it were.. also, QSDS/SSDS/FFS2 providing still
> more options for the gearhead in all of us.

Again, just the former for me.  Though I am looking forward to Naval
Architects, since that's more character-oriented.

> I use just about everything I read here in some way or the other.  It
> really amazes me when somebody can't mentally seperate the useful
> nuggets of information from whatever context they are given in.

Different people's minds work in different ways; it's not something I
have trouble with, but then other people can manage things that I can't.
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:30:47 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: RE: E21 Countries, revision 1

On 08/13/97 at 09:20 AM,  Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> said:

>"Paxson, David" <dpaxson@broc.com> wrote:
>>China's population is currently on the order of 1.2 billion.  It has
>>grown from the 1 billion figure I've seen before.  Since it has grown,
>>the one-child rule may not be working so well...  

>   China is a *big* place.  Crossing China is not like walking down to the
> corner chemist.  The one-child rule is in strict effect in the cities and
> other areas where Big Brother is close and hand and firmly in control.
>Out in the boonies, implementation is still in progress.

Three comments about the Chinese "one child" rule.  First, the Chinese have
said consistently that the planet will do just fine with a population of 30
to 40 billion..they aren't looking to shrink their population, just slow it
down while they develop.  Second, the "one child" per family is tied to tax
and social services incentives..poor country families still find it a *net*
benefit to have several sons, and even though it is discouraged there isn't
a requirement that families stop with one child..many don't.  Third,
daughters aren't considered worthless..just worth less..and a strategy of
per and post partum abortion is a dirty big not-so-secret secret..this is
will be a problem down the road.

So Robert, unless you want to postulate massive die-offs, from disease or
war, in China and India you need to double, or triple, your estimates for
their populations.  While you're at it cut their economic power by, at
least, fifty percent.

Comments on your figures and other things:  Europe is underpopulated and
probably under rated economically.  US is overpopulated (unless you include
Mexico and Canada in your definition of the US..I wouldn't) and it's
economic rating is too low.  Don't expect Spanish SA to unify, unless it's
to defend itself from Brazil, which you should include as a major regional
player.  Russia, as a union or Empire, is going to be in the game.  The
African states (except *maybe* South Africa) aren't going to get anywhere
until tribalism dies out, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.  The
Arabs have similar problems, they'll have money if the oil counties will
share (they won't), but there are so many ethnic, religious and cultural
grudges among them that I can't see them ever uniting longterm.  Japan has
hit a wall, they need room and resources to keep growing (the same problem
they had in the 30's)..space *might* give it to them, because they will be
hard pressed to get any on Earth. Australia can be a regional power, but
that's all.  India...poor India, I have no idea if India's middle class can
survive resting on the back of a billion desperately poor people struggling
to survive.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 11:57:13 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: 1st IW: The Bio-War

On 08/13/97 at 11:33 PM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>to the Vilani who have never encountered any organism remotely like it?
>Small pox is another good one. The Terrans have a very good vaccine and
>high natural immunity (if you catch chicken pox as a child you have a good
>immunty against small pox). Drop a few aerosol bombs over some crowded
>Vilani cities and bingo, a pandemic that puts the Black Death to shame. I
>don't think the Terrans ever would have actually done that, but it would
>make for a **very** powerful deterant. 

Andrew, you make a good point, but you don't take it far enough.  The
Terrans wouldn't have to distribute diseases with aerosol bombs, all they
would have to do is sneeze.

Whenever the Terrans interact with the Vilani they will be carrying all
those childhood diseases that we catch and shrug off, like chicken pox,
measles, mump. Diseases that absolutely destroyed natives in the Americas
and the Pacific islands.  The effects on the Vilani will be every bit as
bad as the effects the European explorers had on isolated native
populations. 

Then there is the common cold...the Vilani will have NO immunity to any of
the cold and flu viruses.  What percentage of Terrans die from a new strain
of flu?  Not a huge number usually, but the Flu of 1919-20 killed millions,
among the Vilani it would kill whole planets.

Then there is our friend E-coli, we carry strains of it around in our
guts..*we* probably couldn't live without it. If we travel a few hundred
miles and "drink the water" we're likely to shallow a *slightly* different
strain of the bacteria and we get very sick. We can't keep food down, we
get dehydriated, we get so sick we can't take care of ourselves, and in
serious cases if somebody doesn't take care of us we die.  Imagine exposing
any Vilani to *any* of our little friends?  

Notice we haven't even gotten to the diseases *we* consider deadly.

If you want my opinion, it will take the Vilani several generations to
adapt to the dieases of Terra, and it quote a song from a few years ago,
"...but there weren't near as many as there were a while ago."

Eris

ps. I have an alternative to the beginning contacts between the Terrans and
Vilani, that is *much* different from what I've been seeing suggested here. 
Andrew, I absolutely *loved* your outline though. ;->  I'll try to write it
up and post it. -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:07:44 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Population

Earth population is approximately 5.5 Billion, with an average growth rate
of 1.8% (much lower in the West, much higher in Africa). China has a pop of
1224 million in 1993 with a growth rate of 1.6%. India has 866.4 million
with a growth of 1.9%. The USA has 248.7 million with a growth of 0.8%.
Indonesia is 193.6 million, growth 1.8%. Nigeria 122.5 million, growth 3.0%,
Japan 124.1 million, growth 0.4%, Europe 732 million, 0.2% growth (average,
some are actually slightly negative) , Brazil 155.4 million, growth 1.8% 
The Highest growth on Earth is Kenya at 4.5%, with its 25.2 million people.
This (roughly) means at that rate (and it shows no signs of slowing) they
will have a pop in 2100 of about 175 million. and Bangladesh at its current
growth rates will have 400 million people. 

These stats are accurate as of 1993 from the New American Desk Encyclopedia

If these numbers drop it will not be due to AIDS or wars. Influenzas are
more likely to take us down a notch or two, due to their airborne vector and
survivability outside the human body

Starvation of significance is also unlikely, except by their own governments
deliberately culling enemy nationalities. 

As far as GNP (it is a fair measure of economic power) China (at current
growth) will be $5600/capita. The USA will be $51000. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:52:42 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Wendelstein? 

At 10:10 AM 8/13/97 +1000, Michael Barry wrote:
>Excuse ignorance, but what the #@%& is a 'Wendelstein'? And what use is a
>Tokamak as a power generator if it consumes 10-100 times more energy than
>it generates? 

At the moment, a tokamak is a very big fusion plant that burns graduate
students to produce energy.  :)

To be a bit more serious, they are pretty useless for energy production at
the moment, as IIRC, they can contain plasma to the densities needed for
commercial fusion power, but they still need far more power than they
produce.  This is, I believe, more an engineering problem than a physics
problem - the underlying physics is tolerably well understood, now we need
designs that approach the theoretical models.

If, as, and when they get those designs, Tokamaks have a lot to recommend
them.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:10:59 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Real data for stars and planets - non canonical

I have been working up a system to "fix up" the M0 data for my own use, and
in the process, opened a big can of worms.

I though, "As long as I am fixing the strange data, why not take a look at
stellar type, planet size, and so on?"

Silly me.

I am going to post the fruits of my labors, but I wanted to post a short
summary first, to give the astrophysicists a chance to tell me of any blind
alleys before I tread down them.

I need proportions for the various stars out there.  I have a distribution
based off of an HR diagram in a 1987 book, but I am not convinced this will
make me happy.

I then need to generate the planetary systems.  I am working from a Bode's
law approach, because I seem to recall from Astro 101 that a working theory
is that the first big body in the system sets up where all the other bodies
will end up.  In our system, it ended up that there are three potentially
habitable planet orbits.

From this, assume ten orbits that have bodies of interest, and that those
orbits almost certainly have something of size 1 or greater in them.  The
orbital distances are set by placing the biggest thing in the system,
making it one of the orbits, and all the others fall out from Bode's law.

Further, assume that gas giants can have a little flock of moons, of which
perhaps 3 +/- 1 of any twenty are of significant size.

Gas giants: we want ~80% of the systems to have them, according to cannon,
so how about 1D-1?  If the gas giant is in the near or habitable zone, it
has best be large.  The moons might be habitable.

Planetary belts - I think they are inevitable near a brown dwarf, and
likely near a big gas giant, so 1D3-1 per system?  Perhaps 80% of
existence, and 1D3 if exists?  I have no strong feeling, and not enough
theory.

Given that the gas giants have something like 99.?% of the mass in the
planetary system, and some amazing fraction of the angular momentum, there
is no reason to assume that the average sizes of the planets we see here
are typical.  Even a slight imbalance could have doubled or halved the
sizes of the rocky bodies in the system.  Because I like earthlike planets,
I am assuming that the size of earth is typical, I am working on
distributions where most planets range fairly uniformly from size 3 to size
12 or so.  As a result, most systems will have at least one, and likely
three or four planets with gravity somewhere close to human norms.

Atmosphere - from tables in the astro books, plus the delightful "World
Building" book, I have gotten the idea that nothing below size 3 is going
to have a human breathable atmosphere over the long term.  I am working on
distributions for the pressure, and am willing to assume across the board
that 25% of all atmospheres are tainted in some way.

Hydro - No strong feelings, but there seems to be a lot of ice in the
universe.  Perhaps a mild push towards more middling values.

I intend to add resource and life ratings to planets as well, so that one
can know just how good a place actually is after a preliminary survey.

So, anyone who actually knows this stuff want to point out any flaws so
far, so I can fix them before going further?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:14:12 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

The air in the balloon is constantly being heated by the sun light 
falling on it ... but it is not enough to lift the balloon.  You would 
need a much larger mirror surface area than the balloon to heat up the 
air enough to produce sufficient lift for the balloon + characters.

They could always suspend a piece of (black) bassalt rock in the ballon 
and heat it up with phasers on low poweer ... oops, wrong game :-)

The characters don't need that much heat (relative to a high TL) to 
make the balloon fly, and they should be able to manage a jury-rig if 
they have a laser power pack or something similar to heat wood or coal 
and make it burn fast enough to replace the original source of heat.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:38:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>  Imagine exposing
> any Vilani to *any* of our little friends?  

O ghod, but someone's gotta say it, so it may as well be me:

(In a heavy faux-Cuban accent)

"Say hello to my leetle friend..." THBBBBBBTTTTT

All right all right so I'm a sick puppy...we also had sign up in my old
lab that said "Fecal Coliforms Happen" ;->

As long as they don't look like little limes...(don't try, it's an
in-joke)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:07:43 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list

I tried sending the "cremark" fellow a polite message on how to get off this
list and I got the same message as Nick. I tried being polite. I really did.
Maybe if the jerk sees this he will kindly read the instructions at the end
of the .....FREAKIN' list

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:05:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?

Draft Text from Skill Chapter in T4.1

x	Brawling (Fighting)	Dex, Str
	Brawling is an unstructured hand-to-hand fighting skill. It is learned by
experience (rather than taught). The individual is familiar with the
processes of conflict resolution through violence. He has an understanding
his personal abilities and limitations when interacting violently with
others.
	Brawling is one of three members of the Fighting skill cascade (the others
are Melee and Environmental Combat). Brawling encompasses unarmed,
unstructured hand-to-hand combat. In contrast, Melee is structured
hand-to-hand combat (boxing, wrestling, martial arts). Environmental Combat
involves fighting in High G or Zero-G, or special situations (such as
underwater).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 15:20:06 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Population

On 08/13/97 at 01:07 PM,  "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com> said:

>Earth population is approximately 5.5 Billion, with an average growth rate
>of 1.8% (much lower in the West, much higher in Africa). 

What Glenn didn't add was that at a 1.8% growth rate that 5.5 billion
balloons to 34.5 billion by 2100.  Personally, I think that exceeds the
Earth's carrying capasity, and there will be some Malthusian hell to pay,
but I could be wrong.  All the Malthusian predictions of doom have been
wrong so far.

Eris,
    aren't there just too many people around here?
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:46:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress Soda

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> >>Maybe they're accounting for the CocaCola machines, movie theaters,
> >>videogames, nautilus machines etc that any self respecting TL 15 unit
> >>requires ;)
> >
> >  I understood TL 15 BD included all that :)
> 
> Would RC BattleDress have Pepsi?

Doug,

I'm shocked I have to say this.

RC Battledress would have, of course, RC Cola.

You'd have to go "smash" a TED or two to "grab" the real Coke 
receipe. (TED - maybe that should be "CED" - Cola Enhanced Dictator)

Ethan "Never even played TNE" Henry
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 15:13:01 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Arcologies

On 08/13/97 at 10:35 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

>Jerry Pournelle wrote a novel using precisely that concept some years
>ago...which title escapes me now (Oath of Fealty perhaps?)

Yes, that is correct, _Oath of Fealty_.  I remember it for the arcology,
but it also had a "Patty Hearst" plot that stuck in my mind. ;->

>...but the Arcologies were the comfortable, secure suburbia. And we're >heading that way faster than you know... 

Frankly, I expected to see them already.

>Finally, people seem to have a view of arcologies that is extensively
>dystopian...there's no reason on earth that an arcology needs to be a
>'sardine can' Most people living in luxury high rises don't seem to regard
>them as 'sardine cans', and an arcology isn't much more than an apartment
>highrise, with an office building attached, sitting on top of the Mall Of
>America...with a few grocery stores in there, and it's own subway station.

Yep, a hugh mall area covering the lower couple of floors, hotels and
convention centers around the outside of the next few floors, office
complexs rising up the center, and rings of garden apartments around lower
priced inner apartments further up.  Stores, shops, government offices,
mini-malls, churchs, and recreation areas strategicly placed here an there
as you go up.  You could spend almost your entire life in one of these
arcologies, living, working, going to school and church, playing, paying
you taxes, shopping..everything.  And all in climate and crime controlled
comfort.

Where do you think the "Jetson's" will live? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:24:23 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Disintegrators

> 
> Easiest solution that I can see is that it's a "field effect", and
> either "borrows" energy from the electrostatic repulsion, or some other
> handwave. That would have the nucleons move apart, but not as
> violently, and let the SF return after they were too far apart for it
> to force them back together.


Agreed.  At least initially, this mechanism may be the best bet
canonically and doesn't require enormous energy levels from the
disintegrator.

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:07:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:Down with Yanks in Space & Canada is so cool it should be covered in ice! <G>

Eris wrote:

>I promise to keep this short and not visit it again...for a while. ;->

>>>Ob Traveller, I wish you foreigners <g> would quit referring to Yanks in
>>>Space..I ain't no "damn yankee!" ;-p
>
>In reply to someone's question as to how you should refer to us, well, I
>live in the United States of America, and I'm an American.
>
>American is what we call ourselves, and whether Canadians, Mexicans,
>Brazilians, Englishmen or Swedes <g> think that's fair, that *is* what we
>call ourselves. We would *like* you to call us that too.
>
>Specifically, "Yank" or "Yankee" refers to Americans that live in the New
>England states..or generically to any citizens of the north or midwestern
>states.  Just as you shouldn't call Scotsmen or a Welshmen, English, you
>shouldn't refer to *all* Americans as Yanks.  I had intended my comment to
>be taken as a joke, but, if you like, you can think of it as defending our
>trademarks.  ;->

The BBC manages to blur the distinction between the various nations in the
UK (between British and English) to suit, so it's understandable if those
of us here in the UK get a little confused with this Yanks thing.. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:04:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Interstellar Wars

Marc wrote:

>This is a very nice beginning synopsis. I'm looking forward to the rest.

And me.. I again recommend CJ Cherryh as a read for writers wanting to work
in this period.

>Meanwhile, the intent of Nth Interstellar War was to convey that toward the
>end of the period, some groups of worlds were at peace while others continued
>to fight. The Ziru Sirka (or is it Sirkaa?) talked out of several sides of
>its collective mouth, and kept fighting etc.The traditional numbering system
>for wars was used (1-8) or so until it fell apart.

IIRC Vilani and Vargr explains the Sirka/Sirkaa difference as changing the
emphasis to mean 'restored' in the second case...

>I have been talking with Loren Wiseman about he and I doing the E21 milieu,
>and it would be a natural for us to do the Interstellar Wars after that. I
>believe that a Milieu should be used to reflect on a specific type of play
>and emphasize that. E21 would emphasize the Soalr System and the Grand Story
>of first contacts with the Vilani. The Interstellar Wars would benefit from
>emphasizing space battles and ship design.


Yes! I actually look forward to this more than M0 stuff... Must be the
T2300 GM in me. I do think that you should blur E21 and the Interstellar
Wars together, else the feel could end up being too claustrophobic for a
very long term campaign.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:39:30 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: X-Boat List

I hate doing this, but we seem to be taking a poll;

Me too; don't split.  See Paul Owensby's post for my exact feelings.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
[***note email address change***]
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:59:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:Who started the Interstellar War etc...

Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:

>a)  The Vilani cruised in with their gun ports open (a traditional sign of
>openness and friendliness to the Vilani), and were promptly blown to
>vapours by the paranoid Terran crew (hmmm...paranoid...choose between
>Russians, Israelis and North Koreans).

 I think that you mispelt Vilani - it should be 'Mimbari' in this case... ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:32:25 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list

At 04:07 PM 8/13/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I tried sending the "cremark" fellow a polite message on how to get off this
>list and I got the same message as Nick. I tried being polite. I really did.
>Maybe if the jerk sees this he will kindly read the instructions at the end
>of the .....FREAKIN' list

I tried sending a complete copy of his request, my (polite) reply, and his
asinine response to it to his postmaster.

Utter failure - apparently, they did not define postmaster, and I could not
find a whois record for them.  The second copy went to root.  I suppose I
could threaten to send a half a billion "Please send me information on your
nose hair clippers" messages to various cyberpromo sites, but I have a
feeling that this would lose me the moral high ground.

Pity, as it is so tempting.  I suppose I will stick to just being a polite
usenet admin, though, and try root and postmaster addresses at other
machine up the line.

This, I think, is why most SF/gaming worlds do not accept data and info
feeds from other worlds.  Can you IMAGINE the spam resulting from 30
billion people?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:48:37 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: M: E21

Mark Samuels wrote:

> Case in point: Unilever is the world's tenth biggest employer -
> employing
> three times as many people as, for example, the entire British armed
> forces.  It's turnover is bigger than the GNP of some European
> countries
> (and there are twelve companies bigger than Unilever ... ).  More
> influential than many governments, I'd say.
>
> Mark

And yet, I've never heard of it.  Go figure.  I thought I was a
reasonable well informed New York Times reading and CNN watching guy.
Guess I'll have to bursh up.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:44:05 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level

At 09:45 AM 8/12/97 +0000, Andy Brick wrote:
>Hi All,
>
><snip>
>
>Not quite as I understand it. Stutterwarp is a scaled up version of
>electron
>tunnelling, with jumps hundreds of metres long repeated hundreds of
>thousands of times per second. Jump drive on the other hand is
>passage into another dimension ( "jumpspace" ) for a fixed duration.
>Stutterwarp does not require interdimensional gateways, and the ship
>is in normal space whilst in flight. You can shut down a stutterwarp 
>on a dime, but you can't leave jumpspace early. Ships using
>stutterwarp can take part in sublight combat actions etc, whereas ships in 
>jumpspace are prevented from interacting with anything in the normal
>universe until they return to it.
>
><snip>
>
>Gravitic theory may give you thruster plates, but it has little or anything
>to do
>with Stutter or Jump Drives - the technology fields in FF&S1 make FTL and 
>Gravitics quite distinct. Gravitational fields do adversely affect
>Stutterwarp 
>performance and Jump drive field generation, true, but they are not 
>important to the actual function of the drive unit itself.
>
>Andy Brick
>exeus@compuserve.com
>http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/
>

We may be differing on interpretation. No matter how I tried to image it, I
could not get comfortable with Jump as a different form of space. My own
handwaving explanations on what the jump fuel was used for, what would be
seen outside the ship during a jump, and why you couldn't intercept a ship
in jump just did not fit with out calling jump an effect instead of a space. 

I did not begin to develop a final, satisfying explanation until I ran
across a book called 'The Iron Sun' by Adrian Berry (1977). It was the first
one I found in which the idea of skipping thru space time distortions caused
by black holes. This is where I started the explanation I posted earlier in
the form of Professor Davros intoductory lecture on Jump Theory. The arrival
of 'Secret of the Ancients' with pocket universes and teleporting by
twisting space time to match up entry and exit points confirmed my feelings
about this explanation for Jump. 

The ideas in the Iron Sun, Grandfather's pocket universes & teleports all
are based on distortion of space time, an effect of gravity. This melded the
idea that gravitics and Jump are related. When 2300 came out with
Stutterwarp, even though the analog was to electron tunnelling, the only
logical way I saw to achieve it was by rapid short distance space time
distortions, micro jumps. A field effect touching every atom within it
leaves you facing the same Heisenberg (sp?) principle that chucks Star Trek
type transporters into the fantasy realm instead of the science fiction realm.

It fits my view of the Traveller universe. It adds a layer of consistancey
to the universe; gravitcs are key to several technologies. Early gravitics
gives you some benefits without handing out aircars as soon as it appears.

It certainly eleminates the question of what all that Lhyd is for.

Garry



 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1683
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1684



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War
Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list
Re: Battledress Soda
Re: 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...
Re: Huh? :)
Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list
Re: 1st I.W.
Re: Arcologies
Malthus
Re: Arcologies
Updated web site
Re: Spacefaring nations and economics
Re: black globes
Re: Population (UN data... longish)
M:21C; I-Wars
Load-lifting, etc.
Re: Huh? :)
BioWar ... just say No

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 20:02:03 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

On 08/13/97 at 12:38 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

>As long as they don't look like little limes...(don't try, it's an
>in-joke)

That reminds me...I got the numbers wrong. Those little limes aren't
*quite* as powerful as I posted, Bruce. 

The civilian models only pack 2.4MJ's (20d6) explosive force.  Of course, I
still wouldn't want to be in the room when *that* went off, either. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 20:07:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list

On 08/13/97 at 04:07 PM,  "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com> said:

>I tried sending the "cremark" fellow a polite message on how to get off
>this list and I got the same message as Nick. I tried being polite. I
>really did. Maybe if the jerk sees this he will kindly read the
>instructions at the end of the .....FREAKIN' list

<g> Yeah, I did too. Then when I got *the* response, I emailed a complaint
to his postmaster, with a cc to him.  The postmaster wouldn't accept the
message..and an autoreply said "cremark's" address was full..couldn't
accept more mail.  

I think maybe we ALL sent him a "here's how to get off the list, you idiot,
so stop bugging us" post at the same time. What do you think? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 20:11:56 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Battledress Soda

On 08/13/97 at 04:46 PM,  Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com> said:

>I'm shocked I have to say this.

>RC Battledress would have, of course, RC Cola.

....and a MOONPIE!  Ah!!!!!  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:28:04 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

At 05:45 AM 8/13/97 +0000, Peter Newman wrote:
><snip>
>
>But in Imperium, the war game of the Interstellar wars, the Villani are
>forbidden from building any ships larger than cruisers without the
>Emperors permission.  Presumably the Ishimkarun does not trust his
>provincial governors with heavy ships for fear they will use them to
>rebel.  From what Traveller has said about the disintegrating nature of
>the First Empire at this time this makes sense.
>

True, they could not build anything larger than a cruiser, but what was the
First Imperiums tonnage classifications for ships? Supplement 9, fighting
ships of the Imperium gives us the THIRD Imperium's classifications, but
what were the FIRST Imperium's? A 3I cruiser could be in the same tonnage
class as a 1I  destroyer.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:31:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Huh? :)

In mail you write:

> At 07:35 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Maybe they're accounting for the CocaCola machines, movie theaters,
>>>videogames, nautilus machines etc that any self respecting TL 15 unit
>>>requires ;)
>>
>>  I understood TL 15 BD included all that :)
>
> Would RC BattleDress have Pepsi?

Wash your mouth out with soap!

Obviously, RC gear has RC Cola! :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:22:10 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list

At 16:32 13/08/97 -0700, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>>I tried sending the "cremark" fellow a polite message on how to get off this
>>list and I got the same message as Nick. I tried being polite. I really did.
>>Maybe if the jerk sees this he will kindly read the instructions at the end
>>of the .....FREAKIN' list
>
>I tried sending a complete copy of his request, my (polite) reply, and his
>asinine response to it to his postmaster.
>
	It looks like this guy has an automatic mail response set up. It could be
he is away on holiday and not back for a while, or there may be some other
explanation.

	The PC's have to use a combination of computer skill and lots of detective
work to track down the location of this irritating user on Sol's computer
net. They will find that they have to travel to Singapore, where the user
is actually an old tramp who lives under a bush with a laptop and a mobile
phone with fax / data facilities. The tramp will explain that he has been
trying to post a bug-free version of all the T4 rule books to TML, but as
they only exist in grandfather's pocket universe, he was unable to obtain
them and realised that no one will ever get to see them. This got him
particularly miffed with the whole thing, and he says that this is his way
of lashing out. Before the PC's get a chance to unhook his connection, he
will attempt to press his delete key. Roll D6 to see what this does to the
net. On a 1 etc...

	Enough of this, I'm off to bed. Good night.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:14:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 1st I.W.

In mail you write:

>>>Perhaps most importantly - the Vilani are demoralised by contact with a
>>>race that has developed jump drive without Vilani assistance. 
>
>>  How can you be demoralized, when you know it's not true? :) All
>>they did is buy the drive from some unauthorized vendor - and
>>they don't even pay royalties! "Hi, we just want to go to Vland
>>to pay our fees, uh, the fleet? In case we get lonely, yeah..."
>
> Almost certainly the concept that the Terrans could have developed
> jump drive independently would have been inconcievable to the Vilani.
> They would assume despite the Terrans claims that they must have
> somehow copied it from them or one of their clients. Again another
> factor in the Terrans favour "These Terrans just copy our technology,
> they'll never actually develop any of their own".

Gonna be *real* hard to justify that when it becomes obvious that the
Terrans have J-3.

> The biowar element would be the Terrans "ace in the hole". Not only do
> they have far superior biological and medical technology, but they also
> have access to the largest resevior of pathogens and organisms specifically
> evoloved to attack humans in the galaxy; and further more the Terrans have
> natural immunity to most of them. The Terrans could easily geneer a pathogen
> to attack the Vilani from some minor aliment such as flu or the common cold.
> It would have virtually no effect on Terrans but be devastating to the
> Vilani. Also since Vilani medical science is so far behind the Terrans,
> the Vilani would find developing counter measures very hard. Take Typhus
> for instance. Amongst populations with natural immunity the fatality rate
> is something like 10% to 20% without treatment, with Terran populations
> without natural immunity it can go as high as 40%; just what would it do
> to the Vilani who have never encountered any organism remotely like it?
> Small pox is another good one. The Terrans have a very good vaccine and
> high natural immunity (if you catch chicken pox as a child you have a good
> immunty against small pox). Drop a few aerosol bombs over some crowded
> Vilani cities and bingo, a pandemic that puts the Black Death to shame.
> I don't think the Terrans ever would have actually done that, but it would
> make for a **very** powerful deterant. What I think the Terrans would have
> done is used debilitating non-leathal biowar agents. Drop one on a world you
> want to take and watch it's infrastucture collapse as they try to cope
> with 80% of their population sick in bed. Sure they'll get better in a few
> weeks, but by then the Terran troops have landed and are in control.

Trouble is *finding* agents that are that mild. Given that the Vilani
have 300,000 years of isolated development, the odds are strong that
anything that causes noticeable illness in Terrans will be life
threatening to Vilani (check the experiments that raised animals in a
sterile environment). So you'd have to use Vilani as guinea pigs to
find some organism that we aren't affected by at all (100% immunity)
that they have enough immunity to to survive.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:15:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Arcologies

> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:35:46 -0700 (MST)
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Arcologies
> 
> On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:
>  
> >   The exception would be the logical extension in NA of the
> > gated community concept. Much more likely, especially as it
> > would provably be a short-term economically viable project
> > before it occurred, but it implies a nasty degeneration of
> > quality of life (perceived or actual) before the wealthy 
> > upper-middle class would want to be put in (to them) a 
> > sardine can.
> 
> Jerry Pournelle wrote a novel using precisely that concept some years
> ago...which title escapes me now (Oath of Fealty perhaps?), but the
> Arcologies were the comfortable, secure suburbia. And we're heading that
> way faster than you know... 

You have the title right, but it was actually a Niven-Pournelle
collaboration.

> Finally, people seem to have a view of arcologies that is extensively
> dystopian...there's no reason on earth that an arcology needs to be a
> 'sardine can' Most people living in luxury high rises don't seem to regard
> them as 'sardine cans', and an arcology isn't much more than an apartment
> highrise, with an office building attached, sitting on top of the Mall Of
> America...with a few grocery stores in there, and it's own subway station.
> 
> Think of how much time we already spend indoors in an urban environment.

Isaac Asimov told a lovely story about his novel _The Caves of Steel_.
TCoS is set in a future New York which is entirely enclosed (and mostly
underground); it's also rather crowded and 'cramped' in feeling.  Soon
after the book was published, a fan asked him how he had come to write
about this dystopia.  Asimov double-taked..."Dystopia?  What dystopia?"
You have to understand that Asimov disliked open spaces, was thrilled to
live in deepest, densest Manhattan, and did most of his writing in an
attic garret too low-ceilinged to stand upright in.

In other words, one man's hell is another man's heaven...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:34:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Malthus

Hello,
>>Earth population is approximately 5.5 Billion, with an average growth rate
>>of 1.8% (much lower in the West, much higher in Africa). 
>
>What Glenn didn't add was that at a 1.8% growth rate that 5.5 billion
>balloons to 34.5 billion by 2100.  Personally, I think that exceeds the
>Earth's carrying capasity, and there will be some Malthusian hell to pay,
>but I could be wrong.  All the Malthusian predictions of doom have been
>wrong so far.

  The Malthusian case assumes that the capacity for improved
agri-yields was exhausted around 1795. However, for the Third
World this case seems substantially accurate. They won't be able
to afford and won't be given geneered crops (Monsanto isn't a
charity), nor are they likely to develop other industries to
pay for food supply augmentation. While segments of their
population (assembly-line workers in Japanese or American
owned factories, bureaucrats, professionals) may be able to
hang on, that will only last until the society as a whole
collapses. Of course, the original theory hasn't been
exemplified yet either.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:34:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Arcologies

Hello,
>> would provably be a short-term economically viable project
>> before it occurred, but it implies a nasty degeneration of

>Jerry Pournelle wrote a novel using precisely that concept some years
>ago...which title escapes me now (Oath of Fealty perhaps?), but the

  That's the one - that's what I meant about economics, as in OoF the
arcology was a _big_ real estate venture.

>Finally, people seem to have a view of arcologies that is extensively
>dystopian...there's no reason on earth that an arcology needs to be a
>'sardine can' Most people living in luxury high rises don't seem to regard
>them as 'sardine cans', and an arcology isn't much more than an apartment

  Agreed. I don't think it would be horrible, but the outside
conditions driving the process may very well be. But a lot of
people do view apartments and townhouses as being too cramped.
In fact, an arcology can have _lots_ of floor space - even at
modest heights a too high density will lead to access problems
if based on individual vehicles, and certainly marketing problems
in NorAm.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

P.S. - and if you're really bored you can always e-mail your warm
thanks to: cremark@pacific.net.sg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:35:48 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Updated web site

Hi all

I never saw an echo of this message, so I'll try a repost. Sorry for the
waste of bandwidth if you've already seen it:

Finally, I've finished updating my Traveller Web Site (for now). It
features new Library Data entries and more worlds that have appeared in
'canon' Traveller Sources.

Library Data now contains 723 seperate entries, still extensively
hyperlinked!

The list of worlds now has 1039 references to systems appearing in
Traveller 'canon' - that's about 10% of all the worlds in the Imperium!

Also at the site: Robots with pictures now in color! Deckplans for the
Nishemani Class Corsair!

Check it out!

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:01:26 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Spacefaring nations and economics

> Milieu E21 should reflect these sort of factors either in
> (a) countries with good launch sites having involvement in Space
> (b) conflict between nations over good launch sites.
> E21 could see major conflict between Australia and Indonesia for the
> launch facilities on the Northern portion of the Australian continent.

The advantage of an equatorial launch site is marginal. The additional
launch velocity from planetary rotation is only a few dozen km/s, which a 1
G drive can match in seconds. Launch sites will be located wherever
convenient for passengers and industries. Equatorial launch sites are only
useful for beanpoles or space elevators, which become economically unviable
after the invention of HEPlaR at TL 10.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:02:51 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: black globes

>   But 'High Guard' states that a incoming <in-jumping> squadrons using
>black globe generators will achive surprise < NOT be detected >, for
>the first round.   This inplys that either...
>        <A>. operating black globes damppen out a grav signiature.
>  or... <B>. the gravity wave is not as large as you suggest.

how about

<C> Grav sensors don't have the resolution of AEMS sensors so, while you
can detect that a ship jumped in, you can't detect where it is.

<D> Grav sensors don't have the sensitivity of AEMS, so they can only
detect ships that jump in nearby.

or

<E> Black Globe squadrons jump in at extreme range and spend a few days
regrouping with ships that had a slightly different jump duration and
refueling before travelling to the final target.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 23:59:00 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Population (UN data... longish)

On 1997-08-13 14:20, Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net> posted the following:

>On 08/13/97 at 01:07 PM,  "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com> said:
>
>>Earth population is approximately 5.5 Billion, with an average growth rate
>>of 1.8% (much lower in the West, much higher in Africa). 
>
>What Glenn didn't add was that at a 1.8% growth rate that 5.5 billion
>balloons to 34.5 billion by 2100.  Personally, I think that exceeds the
>Earth's carrying capasity, and there will be some Malthusian hell to pay,
>but I could be wrong.  All the Malthusian predictions of doom have been
>wrong so far.
>
>Eris,
>    aren't there just too many people around here?

Current UN estimates place earth's pop at (mid. 1996) 5.77 Billion. An 
important thing to remember is that the growth rate is *declining*. Peak 
growth rate has been reached, we are beginning a long "levelling off" 
process. 

That 1.8% growth rate that Glenn C. cites is outdated. Between 1990 and 
1995 the world population grew at 1.48 per cent per annum, below the 
1.72% per annum at which population had been growing between 1975 and 
1990, which stands as the peak period in the history of world population 
growth. Growth rate in less developed regions is 1.77 per cent per annum.

Right now there are 10 nations with greater than 100 million: China, 
India, USA, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia, Pakistan, Japan, Bangladesh, and 
Nigeria. According to the medium-fertility varient projection, by the 
year 2050, seven more countries will have crossed that mark: Ethiopia, 
Iran, Zaire, Mexico, Philippines, Viet Nam and Egypt.

The UN projects a world population of 9.4 billion in 2050, nearly 
half-a-billion lower than projected in 1994.

Source: UN Press Release POP/626/Rev.1 (14 November 1996)


Here's some milestones I gleaned from the UN Population Info. gophers 
(that 34.5 billion M2100 figure is out to lunch!) Note that World 
Population is projected to stabilize at 11.6 billion by just after 2200.

<gopher://gopher.undp.org:70/1/ungophers/popin/>


*************************************************************************
The electronic version of this document is being made available by the 
Population Information Network (POPIN) Gopher of the United Nations 
Population Division, Department for Economic and Social Information and 
Policy Analysis.
*************************************************************************


                          WORLD POPULATION MILESTONES


                       Data from the Population Division,
       Department for Economic and Social Information and Policy Analysis



                     World Population reached:

                    1 billion in      1804
                    2 billion in      1927, (123 years later)
                    3 billion in      1960,  (33 years later)
                    4 billion in      1974,  (14 years later)
                    5 billion in      1987,  (13 years later)

                     World Population may reach:

                    6 billion in      1998, (11 years later)
                    7 billion in      2009, (11 years later)
                    8 billion in      2021, (12 years later)
                    9 billion in      2035, (14 years later)
                   10 billion in      2054, (19 years later)
                   11 billion in      2093, (39 years later)











 Source:  Population Division, Department for Economic and Social 
Information
          and Policy Analysis, World Population Growth from Year 0 to
          Stabilization, (United Nations, New York), mimeograph, 6/7/94.



                                                                      
6/7/94




**********************************************************************
The electronic version of this table is being made available by the 
Population Information Network (POPIN) Gopher of the United Nations 
Population Division, Department for Economic and Social Information and 
Policy Analysis.
**********************************************************************

              WORLD POPULATION GROWTH FROM YEAR 0 TO STABILIZATION

                       Data from the Population Division
       Department of Economic and Social Information and Policy Analysis


               Year         Population (in billions)       Source

               0                      0.30                 Durand
               1000                   0.31                 Durand
               1250                   0.40                 Durand
               1500                   0.50                 Durand
               1750                   0.79                 D & C
               1800                   0.98                 D & C
               1850                   1.26                 D & C
               1900                   1.65                 D & C
               1910                   1.75                 Interp.
               1920                   1.86                 WPP63
               1930                   2.07                 WPP63
               1940                   2.30                 WPP63
               1950                   2.52                 WPP94
               1960                   3.02                 WPP94
               1970                   3.70                 WPP94
               1980                   4.45                 WPP94
               1990                   5.30                 WPP94
               1994                   5.63                 WPP94
               2000                   6.23                 WPP94
               2025                   8.47                 WPP94
               2050                  10.02                 LR
               2100                  11.19                 LR
               2150                  11.54                 LR
               Stabilization
               (Just after 2200)     11.6                  LR




  Sources:

  Durand:     J.D. Durand, 1974. Historical Estimates of World Population:
              An Evaluation (University of Pennsylvania, Population 
Studies
              Center, Philadelphia), mimeo.
  D & C:      United Nations, 1973. The Determinants and Consequences of
              Population Trends, Vol. 1 (United Nations, New York).
  WPP63:      United Nations, 1966. World Population Prospects as
              Assessed in 1963 (United Nations, New York).
  WPP94:      United Nations, 1993. World Population Prospects: The 1994
              Revision (United Nations, New York)
  LR:         United Nations, 1992. Long-range World Population 
Projection:
              Two Centuries of Population Growth, 1950-2150 (United 
Nations,
              New York).
  Interp:     Estimate interpolated from adjacent population estimates.

                                                                   6/7/94


- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:17:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: M:21C; I-Wars

Hello,
>>Did you perchance catch my highly unoffical history of the IWs?

  Loved `em (snip!). Do you mind if I print a copy for my Imperium box?

>>years, those pinpricks could start to add up and the Vilani's
>>war balance sheet move into the red. When this happened, the

  I like the interpretation, plus can you imagine how underwhelmed
a sector governor would be when told that the solution to commerce
raiders was to slow military ship production to arm merchants (which
could then become real pirates in peacetime)?

>>Almost certainly the concept that the Terrans could have developed
>>jump drive independently would have been inconcievable to the Vilani.

  Here's a thought; given Vilani technology handling from V&V, would
they really believe that reverse engineering anything was practical?


>>The biowar element would be the Terrans "ace in the hole". Not only do

  It might explain why the Vilani didn't go for their genocide schtick.
We assume the Terrans don't want to provoke them, and want the real estate
anyways.

>>they have far superior biological and medical technology, but they also
>>have access to the largest resevior of pathogens and organisms specifically
>>evoloved to attack humans in the galaxy;               ^^^

  Is that a reference to microbes or other humans? :>

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:17:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Load-lifting, etc.

Hello,
>Subject: Spacefaring nations and economics
>are to be found in space rather than on beat-up, overexploited old Earth,
>then the economic and political power balance of the world would shift
>towards the equatorial nations. 

  Only if nation states are the only major actors and the resource
bearing under-developed countries can lock down control of their
economies. More realistically, they'll get screwed selling to the
markets and companies of the First World, and if they attempt to
re-write the rules they'll be punished, brutally if necessary,
until they change their minds. It ain't pretty, but I'm sufficiently
confident of the systems perpetuation to not worry about a future
decline in my standard of living.

  In all seriousness, would the U.S. _not_ have a major spaceport
capacity in the lower 48? Would they rely on Mexico, Panama, or
Ecuador, if the country in getting weren't a satellite or willing
to grant extra-territoriality?

>depending more heavily on space and the oceans for resources, we might see
>Europe and the USA thrown onto Hard Times (tm). 

  The UN Law of the Sea (unratified by U.S. still?) would still
allow any company to mine/exploit/use international seabed, and
ship the product home, or sell on the free market. That is, the
Indonesians are probably still screwed, but the US and Japan are
quite well looked after [Canada too :) ].

>strain the finances of nation-states, but well within the capability of
>corporations).

  I would strongly suggest that no single modern corporation would
undertake such a venture. A consortium (or zaibatsu) might do so
under special conditions (Pentagon cost-plus, or MITI) but projects
like such are typically beyond most MNC's interests. The Apollo
project, OTOH...

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:08:54 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Huh? :)

Douglas E. Berry wrote

> At 07:35 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >>Maybe they're accounting for the CocaCola machines, movie theaters,
> >>videogames, nautilus machines etc that any self respecting TL 15 unit
> >>requires ;)
> >
> >  I understood TL 15 BD included all that :)
> 
> Would RC BattleDress have Pepsi?

Obviously RC BattleDress would have _RC_ Cola, I can't believe you had
to ask. :)  Welcome back, Doug

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:17:01
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: BioWar ... just say No

IMO the Terrans would try quite hard not to use bioweapons in the
Interstellar Wars, because of their desire to keep the wars within
"nice" civilized grounds ... they cannot risk the Vilani going "stuff
this" and escalating to planetary nuclear bombardment ... the Terrans
may have good planetary defenses around Terra, but Nuclear Dampers
are a TL12 invention, and three cobalt bombs would wreck Terra ...

Accidental escape of pathogens OTOH is something else, and could provide
a reason for the Long Night ... the collapse of Vilani populations
from Terran diseases. This cold be a reason why the Long Night was so
long and so dark ... trade = plague.

Ian Whitchurch

PS If you are that prick from Singapore who is reading this after you
have not bothered to understand how to unsubscribe from this list, I
*am* going to forward your email address as the reply-to to my
favorite list of spam sites if you spam this list whining about how
you want someone else to unsubscribe you. Be Warned !

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1684
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1685



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: black globes
Re: Battledress Soda
RE: BioWar ... just say No
Re: M: E21
Stutterwarp & Heisenberg ( was Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level )
Coresector-suggested fixes, mk 0.9, Repost, mk2 (Looooooong)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:38:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: black globes

><C> Grav sensors don't have the resolution of AEMS sensors so, while you
>can detect that a ship jumped in, you can't detect where it is.

If the blackglobes can mask gravity (as implied by really old canon stuff)
then they wont be detected when injumping but they'll give the save huge
gravitywave when switching off the black globe so no big deal. Flickering
black globes would produce enormous square wave gravitywaves detectable by
mass detectors systemwide. This seems pretty strange to me so despite what
canon says I think we let gravity get through black globes (thus allowing
high tech ships to hurt one-another with pulsed tractors etc and also to
senso when the globe is 100% on using mass detectors.

It is easy to pinpoint an injumping ships location by stationing several
mass detectors in the system and triangulating when the gravity wave hits
each sensor. Then they'll know where the ship jumped in but not where it is
going as it's normal sigs will not be detectable at AU+ distances.
Pretty cool think I: Most systems with good starports and all with
scoutbases/naval bases will have massdetector ships/stations spread out
throughout the system (maybe 5 or 6) that will monitor traffic. The
amplitude of the gravity wave will tell you what displacement the ship has
and the wave shape its J-nbr.

"This is m-station Theta reporting an injumping ship in the 5000 tonne
range with J2 exiting near gasgiant Boote-Kalidor. Send a couple of
Gazelles to check it out. Coordinates and profiles follows in the message
trailer"


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1997 10:39:02 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress Soda

RC Battledress would have, of course, RC Cola.

     Does this mean Combat Armour would have Diet Coke?
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 03:00:17 -0700
From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: BioWar ... just say No

>PS If you are that prick from Singapore who is reading this after you
>have not bothered to understand how to unsubscribe from this list, I
>*am* going to forward your email address as the reply-to to my
>favorite list of spam sites if you spam this list whining about how
>you want someone else to unsubscribe you. Be Warned !
>  
> 
This is not a good idea.  If you check Deja News you will find a message
from some list admin somewhere indicating that this person and one other
have been subscribed to lots of mailing lists without their permission
or knowledge.  Hopefully Rob has unsubbed this person now, since he is
obviously not interested in doing it himself.  As someone else pointed
out he is almost certainly not even reading any of his mail at the
moment.

In all likelihood it is this persons abbrasive and ignorant attitude
that caused some other idiot to subscribe him to so many lists, but this
does not make it smart to further propogate this matter by further
bothering him.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1997 10:53:48 +0100
From: Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com>
Subject: Re: M: E21

And yet, I've never heard of it.  Go figure.  I thought I was a
reasonable well informed New York Times reading and CNN watching guy.
Guess I'll have to bursh up.  ;-)

Bloo
     Many really big companies are less well known than the names of their 
     subsidiaries or brands.  Plus geography plays a part.  Unilever may be 
     better known among Europeans, whereas its rival (Procter & Gamble) is 
     better known among Americans.  (Notice how I avoided the term Yanks - 
     see how culturally educational this list is!)
     
     Now there's a idea for referees out there.  A big corporation with 
     powerful and far reaching influence, yet nobody's heard of it ... very 
     sinister.
     
     Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 06:03:32 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg ( was Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level )

Hi All,

Garry Ward wrote:

> We may be differing on interpretation. No matter how I tried to image it, I
> could not get comfortable with Jump as a different form of space. =


Nevertheless, Jumpspace is a canonical "fact".  I guess it boils down to what =
you personally accept as canon and what you do not ... and how you
interpret what you do accept ...

> This melded the
> idea that gravitics and Jump are related. When 2300 came out with
> Stutterwarp, even though the analog was to electron tunnelling, the only
> logical way I saw to achieve it was by rapid short distance space time
> distortions, micro jumps. A field effect touching every atom within it
> leaves you facing the same Heisenberg (sp?) principle that chucks Star Trek
> type transporters into the fantasy realm instead of the science fiction

realm.

Heisenberg stated that you could not know _everything_ about a particle
or group of particles without changing their properties in some manner.

However, this is unimportant as regards Stutterwarp. Consider a balloon -
I can move the balloon and all of the air inside it without any knowledge 
of the properties of the various particles it envelops. In other words, I
can generate a field that affects a system of particles without needing
to know much if anything about that system. Think of magnetically 
confined plasma as another example of a "dumb" field that touches
every atom within its domain without violating Heisenberg. If I move the
field, I move the plasma. Now, while I agree that 
the "Heisenberg compensators" in ST are VERY suspect scientifically,
I see no problem with a "dumb" field moving everything along with itself.

It's no more than a container.

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:19:51 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Coresector-suggested fixes, mk 0.9, Repost, mk2 (Looooooong)

REVISED CORE SECTOR DATA:
I pointed out the changes i made in the spaces below the data, along with the reasoning and
the Canon Source. These changes are all subject to later approval by MM which is why i also
stated the originally posted data, to make changing it back easier.
Namechanges where only made when sufficient evidence pointed out that the particuar world
had that name back in the time of M:0 as well.
The Changes made are according to Canon, and logic (Barren Worlds usually have no tech
and Starport), if they do, they are an exception. I have removed all TL and Starports from
Barren worlds, but feel that a few could be reinstated later (Discussion on TML or MM-ruling))
I have found no planet with pop greater than A, have i overlooked any?
Some changes could still be discussed on this basis. Any comments?

So, now which sector data needs repairing?
AFAIK, Corridor (Me), Core(Me) and Massilia (Carlos) have been done already. Any other
TML'ers volunteer for the other sectors? I hope we can finish this job soon, now the char-gen
and task system discussions have almost died down. That about leaves us with Antares,
Dargushaag, Delphi, Fornast, Gushemege, Ilelish, Lishun, Zarushagar and most importantly,
Vland (anybody with the TD issue that deals with Vland??). Any new volunteers?

I hope we can finish this job soon, now the char-gen and task system discussions have
almost died down.

Sources:
TD (8-10)= Traveller's Digest
M:0= Text Milieu Zero
Anomalies

   cor    0103    Irkigkhan .     D9C359C-6       Ni Fl           223     M4 V

   cor    0104    Shana Ma .      E351000-0       Po Ba           003     K2 IV M7 D
 Changed Tl from 6 (Barren)

   cor    0106    Niir .  B9C68A8-7       Fl              404     A1 V

   cor    0112    Per  .  B673111-9       LoPop           103     M6 V M0 D

   cor    0113    Khishi. E7A8000-0       Ba              003     M6 V
 Changed Tl from 8 (Barren) , Starport from D

   cor    0114    Khid.   C250243-9       Po De LoPop             920     M1 VI

   cor    0116    Idpuu  .B485754-8       Ag Ri           411     M4 V

   cor    0117    Neki .  C664522-6       Ag Ni           410     M0 III M9 V M4

   cor    0120    Kein  . C244547-8       Ag Ni           700     K2 VI

   cor    0125    Larsaluu .      B664135-9       LoPop           110     M6 V M1 D

   cor    0126    Danke Es.       B241640-8       Ni Po           413     G7 VI M4 D

   cor    0127    Marsus  B578733-8       Ag              514     M1 V
  Renamed from Emshi, Member of the Interstellar Confederacy (TD9)

   cor    0128    Protalus C559340-9       LoPop           923     K0 V
  Renamed from Sheki, Member of the Interstellar Confederacy (TD9)

   cor    0129    Laslii Mii.     E984000-0       Ba              022     M9 V
 Changed Tl from 7 (Barren) , Starport from B

   cor    0130    Siiaash .       E200686-7       Na Ni Va                502     M2 V M0 D

   cor    0132    Lash .  C76A355-B       Wa LoPop                621     K3 V M0 D

   cor    0133    Pumuuda.C8D7372-9       LoPop Fl                115     G5 V

   cor    0134    Vala   .C421310-8       Po LoPop                803     M5 IV
 Renamed from Miise (Colonized in 57, owned by Aursis) TD10	

   cor    0135    Okefir      C667111-9       LoPop           404     M4 V
 Renamed from Maish Uun (Also Colonized in 57, owned by Aursis) TD10

   cor    0138    Ziris . E873000-0       Ba              002     M2 V
 Changed Tl from 8, Starport from B (Barren)


   cor    0139    Shardir Aagkuug.C87A226-A       Wa LoPop                213     M1 V M3 D

   cor    0140    Aadkhien.       E100000-0       Va Ba           002     K0 V
 Changed Tl from 7 (Barren)

   cor    0202    Azimuth.  B847666-9       Ag Ni           200     M2 V
 Renamed from Isheg Nuuruup. (M:0 Azimuth)

   cor    0203    Khaur Ga .      C234533-B       Ni              400     K1 VI

   cor    0208    Gekshiiuun.     D527200-4       LoPop           723     F9 IV

   cor    0210    Uras  . A79788A-A               801     M2 V M7 D

   cor    0212    Gir .   B645411-8       LoPop           903     K6 II M7 D

   cor    0216    Emuuis. C422100-A       Po LoPop                104     M9 IV M0 D

   cor    0218    Darnii Kimi.    D878111-4       LoPop           614     M0 V

   cor    0220    Inir .  E88A000-0       Wa Ba           003     G2 V
 Changed Tl from 5 (Barren)


   cor    0221    Kan .   B789586-A       Ni              905     G1 V

   cor    0222    Arir Ash.       E210369-5       LoPop           205     G1 V

   cor    0224    Domitar  E234300-5                          003     M8 V
  Renamed to Domitar, Member of the Interstellar Confederacy (TD9)
  Raised Pop to 3, removed Barren classification (logic).

   cor    0228    Ashder .E565000-0       Ba              020     M5 V
  Changed Tl from 7, Starport from C  (Barren)


   cor    0231    Giuum Gim .     E869000-0       Ba              011     G1 VI M8 D
  Changed Tl from 4 (Barren)

   cor    0234    Sishar .B667736-8       Ag              204     M4 V M8 D

   cor    0236    Gasha Uusar.    D671455-6       LoPop   S       203     G9 IV

   cor    0240    Bur  .  E587000-0       Ba              000     M2 V M7 D
  Changed Tl from 8, Starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0302    Khaam . E597000-0       Ba              001     M1 V
  Changed Tl from 7 , Starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0304    Kuunaa. E8B5000-0       Fl Ba           023     M6 V
  Changed Tl from 9, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0305    Muudeshi .      B100AAA-B       Na Ind HiPop Va         301     G1 V

   cor    0306    Kiid .  E786000-0       Ba              022     M1 V
  Changed Tl from 7, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0307    Pasliir .       B274446-7       LoPop           200     K0 V

   cor    0308    Shar .  C688114-7       LoPop           514     M6 V

   cor    0310    Mag .   E888000-0       Ba              002     M7 V K8 D
  Changed Tl from 3 (Barren)

   cor    0313    Maish Akush .   C332668-9       Na Ni Po                303     M4 V

   cor    0314    Maarshigervlig. B8A5453-8       LoPop           514     K6 III M5 D

   cor    0315    Das.    B685366-8       LoPop           604     M3 V M1 D

   cor    0316    Dudin   D5286BD-9       Ni              124     M9 VI

   cor    0319    Uurze . E234000-0       Ba              014     M2 IV K7 D
  Changed Tl from B, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0322    Enluur .E242000-0       Po Ba           004     M1 V
  Changed Tl from B, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0324    Oorpic . B413500-8       Ic            001     M3 V
  Renamed from Vliga,Member of the Interstellar Confederacy (TD9)
  Raised Pop,Gov,Law from 000, removed Barren, as Oorpic was important 	
 industrial world of IC (M:0, TD9)

   cor    0325    Iacus.       B210772-9       Na              303     M2 IV
  Renamed from Muuidimu,Member of the Interstellar Confederacy (TD9)

   cor    0326    Dindma Eshgi.   E340000-0       Po De Ba                004     M4 V M7 D
  Changed Tl from 9, Starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0328    Baamlaa Maa .   C253278-9       Po LoPop                111     M3 D

   cor    0331    Guuriir.E100140-6       LoPop Va                224     K4 V M0 D

   cor    0332    Mige Ris.       B6557CC-8       Ag              303     M4 VI M9 D

   cor    0334    Irka.   B9A9616-B       Ni              623     M1 V M9 D M2 D

   cor    0338    Kiimaa. E887000-0       Ba              000     K0 V M2 D
  Changed Tl from 7, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0402    Apge    B772558-D       Ni              110     M2 V

   cor    0403    Irli Un .       B000140-B       Ast LoPop Va            604     M1 V

   cor    0405    Dake Ag .       E674000-0       Ba              014     K1 V M5 D
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0408    Arkag Ka .      C4536BB-9       Ni Po           402     M4 VI M4 D

   cor    0409    Gin .   C994313-8       LoPop           302     M3 V

   cor    0410    Daa  .  B779134-9       LoPop           202     G4 V M6 D

   cor    0411    Kash .  E584000-0       Ba              003     M6 V
  Changed Tl from 4 (Barren)

   cor    0414    Shiieniaand .   D461130-3       LoPop           913     M1 V

   cor    0416    Sanches B654847-B               413     M0 V

   cor    0418    Shardi  E333746-7       Na Po           103     M4 V

   cor    0420    Nirgem  .       E6A7000-0       Ba              004     K3 V M5 D
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0421    Murda . B887212-B       LoPop           722     G8 V

   cor    0423    Gig  .  B400323-B       LoPop Va                600     K4 V  *

   cor    0428    Irlu    C5358AC-B               113     K2 V M4 D

   cor    0429    Diid .  E9B9000-0       Fl Ba   S       004     G4 V
      Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0431    Gizar Ik .      B634200-9       LoPop           404     K5 V

   cor    0432    Khiieshirk .    C150743-B       Po De           905     K2 III M4 V

   cor    0437    Uumaamuushgii . C400795-8       Na Va           805     M4 V

   cor    0439    Indand .E110000-0       Ba              003     M1 V M4 D
  Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0440    Ganshas.A53A965-C       Wa HiPop                403     G1 V M2 D

   cor    0502    Niir .  B76A5AD-9       Ni Wa           120     M1 V M3 D

   cor    0505    Emiigaap .      C130686-9       Na Ni Po De             124     M1 V

   cor    0511    Gaadir .D4867BE-4       Ag              112     F1 IV

   cor    0512    Arla Un .       B513341-8       Ic LoPop                902     A5 IV K9 D

   cor    0513    Kaman.  E772000-0       Ba              003     K0 V
  Changed Tl from 3 (Barren)

   cor    0516    Rundan  .       C76A521-7       Ni Wa           304     K0 V

   cor    0517    Shiga Sha .     A726137-A       LoPop           802     M2 V

   cor    0519    Zan .   C100264-B       LoPop Va                514     M5 III

   cor    0522    Keplo.   E362757-5       Ri              324     F2 VI
 Renamed from Amkhiikhaki,Member of the Interstellar Confederacy (TD9)

   cor    0523    Uniimvlu.       B590100-9       De LoPop                403     K1 IV

   cor    0526    Uumkhi. E200000-0       Va Ba           021     M2 V
  Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0527    Urguu . E357000-0       Ba              015     G9 V M3 D
   Changed Tl from 9, starport from A (Barren)

   cor    0529    Iirkaa Gaasar.  B386663-9       Ag Ni Ri                512     M4 V M5 D

   cor    0530    Mien Puuruu .   D433320-5       Po LoPop                304     M4 V M4 D

   cor    0531    Dauur . B655100-8       LoPop           100     K2 V M8 D

   cor    0537    Lia     E654754-6       Ag              502     F4 V

   cor    0603    Dashgad.C140247-B       Po De LoPop             601     G1 V

   cor    0606    Khuumiam .      C736788-7               611     M0 V

   cor    0612    Khukhi .C667787-7       Ag Ri           700     F3 V M7 D

   cor    0619    Iggaar .B758763-7       Ag              715     K3 V

   cor    0622    Sketola       B647487-C       LoPop           404     M1 V
  Renamed from Uurgigi to Sketola (TD9)
  Raised TL from B, as it was Capital of IC, and IC had 4-5 TL C worlds.

   cor    0624    Giirud .A100266-C       LoPop Va                904     M1 V

   cor    0635    Anemzaa .       B642423-7       Po LoPop                702     M7 VI

   cor    0637    Vlimas .E796000-0       Ba              003     M4 III
  Changed Tl from 5, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0707    Maaruur  .      E6A2000-0       Ba              020     K8 VI M1 D
    Changed Tl from 6 (Barren)

   cor    0713    Ruuni . C333500-A       Ni Po           703     M8 VI

   cor    0714    Kiishad .       B6A7995-8       HiPop           521     K3 V M1 D

   cor    0718    Uupig . D797248-4       LoPop           505     K4 V

   cor    0721    Shika  .E251466-6       Po LoPop                501     M0 V M0 D

   cor    0722    F'rnow I.B361334-8       LoPop           302     M0 V
  Renamed from Kuuda I to F'rnow as this world was named that in -567: TD 9

   cor    0725    Khag  . C411264-A       Ic LoPop                103     M8 II

   cor    0727    Dral    C7288D9-A               312     G3 V M3 D

   cor    0731    Zzugep  C453AA6-9       Po HiPop                300     M1 V

   cor    0734    Laari  .C797359-4       LoPop           100     M3 V M3 D

   cor    0735    Aapas Mi.       E584368-2       LoPop           304     M1 V

   cor    0737    Shash . C898521-6       Ag Ni           923     G1 V M3 D

   cor    0806    Gaage . A212533-C       Ni Ic           800     M2 V

   cor    0808    Kikim  .E575000-0       Ba              014     M0 II M6 V
  Changed Tl from 2, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    0811    Alekvadin       B675978-A       Ind HiPop               702     M3 V

   cor    0812    Kakhu Gash .    B845759-8       Ag              214     G4 V M4 D

   cor    0816    Keshi . C792564-8       Ni              912     K4 III M4 D

   cor    0820    Iruukzi.E776000-0       Ba              000     K3 V M5 D
     Changed Tl from 6, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    0821    Lalandra. B000411-C       Ast LoPop Va            504     G6 V
 Renamed from Lakhia,Member of the Interstellar Confederacy , (TD9)
  Site of Confederacy Naval Museum

   cor    0822    Siirduu.C140366-9       Po De LoPop             814     G9 V M9 D

   cor    0827    Iirla . B350445-A       Po De LoPop             713     M2 V

   cor    0831    Kuuki Zaa .     E549000-0       Ba              014     K1 V M1 D
     Changed Tl from 7, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    0835    Laaze  .E438000-0       Ba              003     M6 V
     Changed Tl from 4, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    0839    Night   B5748C9-B               420     K8 VI M4 D

   cor    0903    Dis .   E000000-0       Ast Va Ba               013     K5 V
   Changed Tl from 6  (Barren)

   cor    0905    Shazeku B553ADB-A       Po HiPop                100     M2 V M7 D

   cor    0906    Muumuu .C7766AE-9       Ag Ni           402     M3 V K7 D

   cor    0907    Gish  . C778734-6       Ag              230     G0 V M7 D

   cor    0910    Gisid.  E567000-0       Ba              005     K3 V M1 D
 Removed TL-2 (Barren World)

   cor    0911    Kiked Iig.      C545312-7       LoPop           203     M3 V

   cor    0915    Mupisar.E577000-0       Ba              013     M3 V
  Changed Tl from B, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    0916    Irshiish  .     C95A346-9       Wa LoPop                101     G3 V

   cor    0919    Marpi Ka.       E550000-0       Po De Ba                004     M1 V
 Changed Starport from D and TL from 6 (Barren)

   cor    0921    Umda .  E6A7427-4       LoPop           310     M4 V

   cor    0922    Guba Ak .       E375000-0       Ba              002     M1 V
 Changed Starport from B and TL from D, Barren World
 (On CT: Site of naval Base with AI research, nothing before) TD10

   cor    0929    Sheduu. E649000-0      Ba              000     M3 V M6 D
  Changed Tl from 6 (Barren)

   cor    0931    Siniir Sa .     A599300-A       LoPop           514     G0 V

   cor    0933    Kis .   B88A300-9       Wa LoPop                311     K2 IV

   cor    1002    Mishaar B140544-C       Ni Po De                420     A2 V

   cor    1008    Uusla  .C302422-B       Ic LoPop Va             704     K3 V
   cor    1009    Luumiiliiplen . B536433-9       LoPop           313     K4 IV
   cor    1012    Uurmu Kuu .     C424100-B       LoPop           824     M4 V M0 D
   cor    1016    Urshra  B361758-B       Ri              303     M3 V
   cor    1019    Liga Ka .       E783000-0       Ba              003     M1 V M1 D
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1022    Kaplir .E473545-4       Ni              513     G0 V
   cor    1023    Irkkha .B323688-9       Na Ni Po                900     M3 V
   cor    1028    Miim  . C250222-6       Po De LoPop             801     G3 V
   cor    1033    Geam  . E556000-0      Ba              004     M4 V M8 D
  Changed Tl from 9, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1034    Gur.    D533687-4       Na Ni Po                600     M4 V M9 D
   cor    1035    Madalagaa .     B581232-8       LoPop           103     G2 V M1 V
   cor    1037    Nuukhish .      D542354-5       Po LoPop                924     M5 V
   cor    1038    Maur Na .       B358431-9       LoPop           514     M3 V
   cor    1040    Davla  .E528000-0       Ba              025     M5 V M7 D
  Changed Tl from A, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1101    Kiimi Di .      E120000-0       Po De Ba                002     M4 V
  Changed Tl from 7 (Barren)
   cor    1102    Gipirkash.      C594120-8       LoPop           124     M7 V
   cor    1104    Rae .   E580543-3       Ni De           923     G1 V M9 D
   cor    1108    Uurruu E.       B7657AA-7       Ag              414     M4 V
   cor    1109    Uuruun Kuu.     E987000-0       Ba              014     M6 V
  Changed Tl from 5, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1112    Kish .  D310111-7       LoPop           422     M4 VI M3 D
   cor    1114    Adguu Uun .     A5206A7-9       Na Ni Po De             703     M1 V M3 D
   cor    1116    Vlaagesh Iirki. B783420-6       LoPop           200     K1 V M4 D
   cor    1120    Shuunkha .      C340665-9       Ni Po De                103     M4 V M2 D
   cor    1123    Ye-Lu .A100000-D       Va Ba           025     M2 V
 Renamed from Guuirk (M:0)
   cor    1124    Imkhasham.      A8AA677-C       Ni Wa           312     M1 V M4 D
 Changed Tl from 4 (Anomalies)
   cor    1125    Ishiira.D652100-6       Po LoPop                110     M1 V M3 D M9 D
   cor    1129    Aruur . E6A4000-0      Ba              004     K3 V M2 D
  Changed Tl from 6, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1130    Merkaakhu.      D79A353-A       Wa LoPop                501     M9 D
   cor    1134    Aursis  A545520-B       Ag Ni           900     K1 V           *
   cor    1140    Kaamind .       CAF3515-8       Ni Fl           500     K0 V
   cor    1202    Kargi  .C569412-9       LoPop           805     M3 V G8 D
   cor    1204    Limashimii .    E447000-0       Ba              002     M4 D
  Changed Tl from 9, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1205    Miilapkhas .    B590476-7       De LoPop                404     K3 V
   cor    1214    Guun .  E585000-0       Ba      S       012     K4 VI
  Changed Tl from 4 (Barren)
   cor    1219    Amed .  C210535-9       Ni              320     G0 V M8 D
   cor    1220    Aruu.   E100000-0       Va Ba           004     M2 V
  Changed Tl from A, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1221    Shuukha Zuush.  BAD5100-7       LoPop Fl                113     K6 VI
   cor    1222    Armi  . C577635-6       Ag Ni           613     G4 V
   cor    1223    Muguu.  E556000-0       Ba              030     K9 III M0 D
  Changed Tl from 5, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1225    Irmi Khi.       E341662-4       Ni Po           210     M0 VI
   cor    1226    Shanii Arduu .  E485000-0       Ba              022     M0 V
  Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1228    Lishiruud       B697313-6       LoPop           413     M7 IV
   cor    1229    Bais Si.E354136-3       LoPop           613     M3 V M5 D
   cor    1232    Diam Kani.      E130000-0       Po De Ba                022     K2 V
   Changed Tl from B, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1233    Laap  . E375000-0       Ba              024     M4 VI M0 D
      Changed Tl from 9, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1236    Iipgiir.C491356-B       LoPop           503     M5 V M4 D
   cor    1237    Miikuu Ar .     E6A7354-4       LoPop           803     K0 V
   cor    1239    Iirbasur.       C547879-8               202     M0 V
   cor    1240    Lam .   E223000-0       Po Ba           014     K2 IV M7 D
  Changed Tl from 7, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1302    Uumaad Nurir .  E778000-0      Ba              004     K0 V
     Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1307    Ashduuma .      C88A6AB-8       Ni Wa           310     M0 III M4 D
   cor    1308    Akpussagna.     E557000-0       Ba      S       004     M4 II M8 D
  Changed Tl from 2 (Barren)
   cor    1309    Uuniluu.B94A564-9       Ni Wa           401     M2 V M7 D M8 D
   cor    1314    Mukirurguum .   E859000-0       Ba              002     K2 V
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1316    Shiirand .      D85A479-4       Wa LoPop        S       202     K7 VI M5 D
   cor    1317    Gipkikhar .     C203324-B       Ic LoPop Va             212     K4 V M7 D
   cor    1320    Adkaash .       E222000-0       Po Ba           002     M5 V
  Changed Tl from 9, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1321    Nuur .  B664100-6       LoPop           500     M4 V
   cor    1322    Keplo.  C675AEE-7       Ind HiPop               323     M4 V
  Renamed from Liper; Member of the Interstellar Confederacy :		Na
me in -269(TD9;M:0)
   cor    1323    Kushur Naa .    B310200-C       LoPop           303     G3 V M8 D
   cor    1328    Sar .   B647797-9       Ag              102     M4 V M0 D
   cor    1330    Shidkar  .      B685200-6       LoPop           200     F3 V M7 D
   cor    1334    Anshar  .       EACA000-0       Wa Fl Ba                012     G5 V M0 D
  Changed Tl from B, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1335    UmkashuuC35499D-9       HiPop           222     M2 V
   cor    1336    Kuka .  EA97000-2       Ba              003     M3 V M0 D
  Changed Tl from 2 (Barren)
   cor    1338    Rid .   C695131-8       LoPop           602     M2 V
   cor    1403    Gag.    E896000-0      Ba              021     G1 V
  Changed Tl from 3 (Barren)
   cor    1407    Imguu . B200499-9       LoPop Va                820     M5 V
   cor    1410    Uurgin. C210596-7       Ni              903     M3 V
   cor    1416    Imdi Mi.E68A000-0       Wa Ba           004     M2 V M8 D
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1418    Kishdush.       E646000-0       Ba              003     M3 V M1 D
  Changed Tl from 5, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1421    Eorvin.  B436767-8               222     M0 V M0 D
 Renamed from Angar, Former Member of Int. Conf, Captured by SF by -100 (M:0)
   cor    1422    Ashbikuu .      E7C2000-0       Fl Ba           011     G7 V M1 D M8 D
  Changed Tl from 7, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1424    Khusgurlu       B652569-9       Ni Po           614     M1 IV
   cor    1428    Vlaarvla Akha.  A656542-9       Ag Ni           100     K6 II M9 D M2
   cor    1430    Uukzi Giish.    E100000-0       Va Ba           003     F1 V M1 D
  Changed Tl from B, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1431    Saar .  E494000-0       Ba              003     M7 V
  Changed Tl from 6, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1434    Diirmuu.E755000-0       Ba              003     M2 VI
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1436    Arvlesaaish .   E6B0000-5       De Ba           001     G3 V
  Changed Tl from 5 (Barren)
   cor    1437    Mishaa .B9A8100-7       LoPop           713     M6 III
   cor    1440    Minduun Sammad .A58A411-C       Wa LoPop                203     M4 V
   cor    1503    Zepdind Ir.     C5368A6-5               104     M0 V
   cor    1505    Kuum .  C667100-6       LoPop           414     K9 III
   cor    1506    Kakaaguur.      E486000-0      Ba              004     K3 V
  Changed Tl from 5, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1508    Asmi .  D697223-3       LoPop           500     G5 V
   cor    1510    Kinuu . E110369-7       LoPop           503     M2 II
   cor    1511    Aman Urk.       E445300-4       LoPop           123     M8 V M6 D
   cor    1512    Ansham .B8C2120-7       LoPop Fl                504     M5 VI
   cor    1518    Uugnii  .       A86A530-C       Ni Wa           220     M4 III
   cor    1519    Sher.   D9D2322-5       LoPop Fl        S       303     M2 V M7 D
   cor    1522    Gaashi Ash .    C7C0133-7       De LoPop                200     M7 V M0 D
   cor    1523    Belicose .  A596123-A       LoPop           213     M3 V M4 D
 Renamed from Laus, Fought over during Int. Conf Civil War (TD9)
   cor    1524    Shibashliim     A626A88-C       Ind HiPop               912     K4 V           *
   cor    1526    Gikakhii .      E403210-6       Ic LoPop Va             923     M1 V
   cor    1529    Niin .  E210000-0       Ba              024     F8 V M5 D
  Changed Tl from 6, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1530    Arvli Khaan.    E563000-0       Ba              002     M5 IV M6 D
  Changed Tl from 9, starport from B (Barren)
   cor    1531    Emsha I.C3339CC-8       Na Po HiPop             213     K3 V M3 D
   cor    1533    Zagi Uu.C647259-6       LoPop           702     M3 V M0 D
   cor    1534    Gid  .  B76A533-B       Ni Wa           103     K1 V M6 D
   cor    1536    Shueshlar       D435268-7       LoPop           102     M3 III M3 D
   cor    1538    Uurme.  A343211-9       Po LoPop                401     K0 V
   cor    1539    Dimanaam .      A583350-C       LoPop           104     K6 V M1 D
   cor    1605    Giiar E.B446241-A       LoPop           300     K1 V
   cor    1609    Sirma   C2249A8-A       Ind HiPop               502     K4 V M3 D
   cor    1610    Nagan.  C645145-9       LoPop           103     M1 V
   cor    1611    Shauug .B964256-A       LoPop           414     K0 V
   cor    1615    Marlakasi .     E779000-0       Ba              004     M0 V
   cor    1616    Vluurvlash  .   E9B4000-0       Fl Ba           014     M4 V
   cor    1622    Heraldia       C120553-A       Ni Po De                201     M2 II M8 V M7
 Renamed from Genkaa: World fought over by SF and IC (TD9)
   cor    1623    Velpare    A567123-7       LoPop           824     M3 V G2 D
  Renamed from Aggaa Irpu to Velpare : Site of Battle of Velpare in -258 		
(TD9)
   cor    1625    Gakirvli.       C885330-7       LoPop           114     K4 IV
   cor    1628    Amshakshe.      C633654-8       Na Ni Po                904     F3 IV
   cor    1630    Kuusuu Uur.     C130376-B       Po De LoPop             203     M7 IV
   cor    1633    Reshi Uun.      E300000-0       Na Va           501     K4 III
 Removed live and Tech as world wasn't colonized back then (Old UWP C300877.9)
   cor    1635    Hiilev   D62759B-7       Ni              714     K0 V
 Remaned from Khasherliguu, Current name dates back to First Imperium. (TD10)
   cor    1638    Malaaash .      E759123-3       LoPop           312     K2 IV M2 D
   cor    1701    Kama .  E99A456-6       Wa LoPop                724     M1 V
   cor    1702    Iski Kuu.       E463000-0       Ba              002     M4 V
  Changed Tl from 5, starport from D (Barren)
   cor    1703    Irkhiide .      C645300-A       LoPop           900     M6 V
   cor    1707    Erdi .  C6866AA-6       Ag Ni           400     M1 V
   cor    1708    Uunnagirluu.    B000443-9       Ast LoPop Va            104     G2 V
   cor    1710    Kherip Ag .     E000000-0       Ast Va Ba               011     M9 V M2 D
  Changed Tl from 6 (Barren)
   cor    1711    Kaakhe Mirir .  D100536-7       Ni Va           912     M0 V
   cor    1713    Uushnem .       C9D3512-7       Ni Fl           714     M7 IV
   cor    1715    Fornol.       C5819CB-8       Ba              012     K3 V M9 D
  Renamed from Irur Gir (M:0et al)
  Changed Pop,Gov,Law,TL from 000-1 (Commander X-comments)	
   cor    1717    Kasdaga .       D9B7445-7       LoPop Fl                724     M4 V
   cor    1721    Duusikiim .     C565556-8       Ag Ni           304     G0 V M4 D
   cor    1724    Guurma Sa.      A675321-A       LoPop           524     M2 III
   cor    1725    Angairkshak .   B445787-8       Ag              503     M0 V
   cor    1726    Demla  .C000232-9       Ast LoPop Va            104     M1 V M2 D
   cor    1727    Khirar .B8B1114-A       LoPop Fl                605     M0 II
   cor    1730    Laik Girkki.    BAB449C-8       LoPop Fl                504     M8 VI M0 D
   cor    1732    Maasaanin.      C758323-9       LoPop           804     M4 V M7 D
   cor    1733    Riid  . B865132-8       LoPop           614     K3 V
   cor    1736    Mished. B4208AC-C       Na Po De                900     M1 V M6 D
   cor    1737    Irkhar Kirk.    C374469-8       LoPop           700     M4 V
   cor    1738    Ginna . E8A6000-0      Ba              013     M5 V M6 D
  Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    1739    Enshuuar.       B6A6300-8       LoPop           812     M4 V
   cor    1801    Kind .  E451000-0      Po Ba           025     K2 V M4 D
  Changed Tl from 3  (Barren)
   cor    1808    Gamgiigela.     B1008B8-A       Na Va           623     K2 V
   cor    1812    Khiidkar .      B383688-9       Ni Ri           605     M4 V
   cor    1813    Lectorsen .    E354544-3       Ag Ni           400     M4 V M1 D
 Renamed from Gaadvlu Ki. ( Name Lectorsen dates back from 199) TD8
   cor    1815    Unrair .C510112-7       LoPop           413     M3 V
   cor    1819    Unkuu . B505146-8       Ic LoPop Va             300     M7 V
This is the end of part one...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1685
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1686



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Coresector-revisions,mk0.9,Part II of II (Loooong)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1683
Traveller-digest V1997 #1680 -Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:27:24 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Coresector-revisions,mk0.9,Part II of II (Loooong)

Here comes the second part of my suggested fixes. I will post the 
whole monster to my web page sooner or later, probably tomorrow!
BTW: I seem to have lost my Corridor Sector revision post, the one from one or two months ago. If someone 
still has it somewhere, please post it bach to me, So i can post it to my page as well!
cor    1821    Shar .  B78A200-D       Wa LoPop                402     M4 V M5 D

   cor    1822    Anga Ke.B200545-C       Ni Va           912     M3 V K2 D

   cor    1823    Gerar Khashii . E8B7000-0      Fl Ba           004     M3 V
		Changed Tl from 4 (Barren)

   cor    1824    Likamish.       E554100-3       LoPop           604     M4 V

   cor    1825    Rarkan  .       E5A2000-0       Ba              001     M9 D M9 D
		Changed Tl from 9, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    1829    Shis.   B211655-A       Na Ni Ic                913     G0 V

   cor    1831    Irkgiur.C663421-4       LoPop           625     M2 V M8 D

   cor    1833    Shaaram .       E464100-5       LoPop           504     M2 II

   cor    1836    Khea    C3409BG-B       Ind Po De HiPop         703     K1 V M0 D

   cor    1837    Anlumir.BA9A35A-B       Wa LoPop                300     G6 V

   cor    1838    Iraddii.E989362-4       LoPop           203     M4 V

   cor    1839    Rili Aash .     B782411-7       LoPop           501     G5 VI

   cor    1840    Saruumdiiush.   E743657-3       Ni Po           400     M1 V

   cor    1901    Zaniin  .       B694586-8       Ag Ni           700     A3 V M7 D

   cor    1902    Irbi .  E889000-0       Ba              003     M8 VI M9 D
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    1909    Iiska Ashgi .   E433000-0       Po Ba           000     K5 VI M4 D M3
		Changed Tl from 4, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    1912    Khamiila .      A430300-C       Po De LoPop             912     M0 V

   cor    1916    Irurk . A344642-9       Ag Ni           614     M9 D

   cor    1917    Aggii Ganaan.   E22247B-4       Po LoPop                804     K4 V

   cor    1918    Irmap Muu.      C624420-7       LoPop           204     K1 V M4 V

   cor    1919    Nirinirk .      E776000-0      Ba              000     F2 V
		Changed Tl from 6 (Barren)

   cor    1920    Kuma As .       E410000-0      Ba      S       003     M6 VI M9 D
		Changed Tl from 1, starport from D  (Barren)

   cor    1921    Medishvlaas.    C245373-7       LoPop           724     G4 V           *

   cor    1924    Mar.    E455000-0       Ba              000     A4 V M3 VI
		Changed Tl from 3 (Barren)

   cor    1925    Naauup Emrim.   A485673-9       Ag Ni Ri                800     M0 V M5 D

   cor    1927    Khiri . B94A222-6       Wa LoPop                204     K2 V M5 D

   cor    1929    Shakiisiir.     E628314-4       LoPop           824     M2 V

   cor    1930    Kegi And.       B000788-C       Na Ast Va               204     A1 V

   cor    1933    Uushruu.C599321-9       LoPop           604     M1 V M5 D

   cor    1934    Zishma Kha.     C886233-5       LoPop           200     M2 V

   cor    1938    Keshi   B5662C9-B       LoPop           114     K3 V M1 D M0 D
		Gov and Law Level changed from 0;  Gov could also be A, depending on 	
	how the monarchy was organized. Law Level is a guess, based on the 		par
agraphs: "moves against th Kingdom were harshly dealt with"
		TL raised from 7, as the Chanestin Kingdom was almost at par with the SF
		(TD10, M:0)

  cor    1940    Nii  .  B548A8D-8       Ind HiPop               420     M6 III

   cor    2006    Amur Isark.     B21078A-7       Na              912     M2 V

   cor    2008    Khekaa .A110120-C       LoPop           505     M1 V M7 D

   cor    2010    Maashsha .      E8B7000-0       Fl Ba           005     G3 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2011    Kikamaa.E544000-0       Ba              003     G1 V M7 D
		Changed Tl from 4, starport from D(Barren)

   cor    2012    Biin .  E651237-4       Po LoPop                733     M3 V M7 D

   cor    2014    Bala .  C62A332-8       Wa LoPop                414     M0 V M7 D

   cor    2016    Zuarkri .       C87759A-8       Ag Ni           504     M2 V

   cor    2017    Kain .  E576000-9       LoPop   S       821     M7 V
	Changed UWP from E576244-4: First Imperium colony didn't survive (TD8)
		Only TL-9 ruins remain. (TD8)

   cor    2020    Kan  .  E200000-0      Va Ba           013     G4 V
		Changed Tl from 1, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    2021    Shaashsha  .    A300436-B       LoPop Va                915     K9 IV

   cor    2027    Amuum Kuu .     C9A5447-9       LoPop           800     K5 VI

   cor    2028    Iipshimun .     B443200-A       Po LoPop                904     G1 V M2 D

   cor    2030    Ragni . E63A76A-6       Wa              314     M4 V

   cor    2034    Daindkhara .    C324353-B       LoPop           703     M1 III

   cor    2036    Uundi Zi.       A410977-C       Na Ind HiPop            804     G8 III M8 D

   cor    2037    Daaud Urle .    C333344-9       Po LoPop                820     M1 V

   cor    2038    Gimmi Uussha .  C476333-A       LoPop           202     K0 V

   cor    2040    Gikhii Iis .    A240512-8       Ni Po De                102     M3 V M2 D

   cor    2101    Khizuuuum.      A85A435-C       Wa LoPop                303     M4 V

   cor    2102    Ravla . B554210-7       LoPop           210     G5 IV

   cor    2103    Inlun Ra .      E000000-0       Ast Va Ba       S       005     K2 V
		Changed Tl from 6 (Barren)

   cor    2104    Nuudle .C88487A-7       Ri              902     K5 D M0 D

   cor    2105    Shiza . C461867-A       Ri              603     M4 V M9 D

   cor    2111    Kiikagaiir .    C446415-9       LoPop           600     M9 D M3 D
		^Canged Gov and Law from 54 (Anomalies 4)

   cor    2112    Nappar  .       C428256-7       LoPop           720     M9 IV

   cor    2115    Zimiin  .       A331746-B       Na Po           304     M4 V

   cor    2118    Sylea   A586A98-C       Ag Ni           305     G2 V
		Changed Pop,Gov,Law from 530 (M:0)

   cor    2121    Vlaakier .      B98A579-8       Ni Wa           413     G1 V

   cor    2122    Iirkkhu .       E476000-0       Ba              000     M9 V
		Changed Tl from 9, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2125    Urish . B5247CA-A               603     K4 V M9 D

   cor    2130    Iruies .E565000-0       Ba              003     G4 V
		Changed Tl from 9, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2133    Degkak Uun .    E88A453-5       Wa LoPop                210     K4 III

   cor    2135    Diliig. E749000-0      Ba              013     K6 V
		Changed Tl from 4, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    2136    Kiir  . E77A000-0       Wa Ba           004     M3 V M6 D
 		Changed Tl from D, starport from A (Barren)

   cor    2138    Adkhi . E888242-3       LoPop           400     M3 V M3 D

   cor    2139    Nig .   C565347-9       LoPop           802     M8 V M5 D

   cor    2140    Sidzer .D200251-8       LoPop Va                910     M2 III M1 VI

   cor    2203    Andkag Pa .     E338000-0       Ba              000     K2 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2205    Daash.  C538654-A       Ni              823     G3 V

   cor    2206    Edirkisdii .    B444100-A       LoPop           113     A8 V

   cor    2209    Nimluin A476AA9-C       Ind HiPop               710     M1 V M9 D

   cor    2210    Gis .   D562464-3       LoPop           105     M2 V M1 D

   cor    2211    Gid .   B655554-B       Ag Ni           224     K2 III M8 D

   cor    2213    Kiirri  .       E541000-0       Po Ba           014     G9 V
		Changed Tl from 5, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2214    Shudusham.       E849558-6       Ni              904     A1 V
	Renamed from Lauursha: Site of the Shudusham Accords prior to 3 I. (TD8)

   cor    2216    Khash.  E8A6000-0       Ba              023     M0 V
		Changed Tl from 7, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2218    Shaaak .B436997-9       HiPop           304     K0 V M5 D

   cor    2219    Ase     B22048B-C       Po De LoPop             610     M4 V M5 D

   cor    2220    Khishnar .      E462251-0       LoPop           313     M2 V M0 D

   cor    2221    Miium . C998276-6       LoPop           815     K1 V M5 D

   cor    2222    Miiidkhig.      C855899-8               613     M0 V

   cor    2223    Muun .  E866000-0       Ba              002     M2 V
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from A (Barren)

   cor    2224    Kuula Iish.     B160323-B       De LoPop                203     K2 II

   cor    2225    Duur  . C512112-9       Ic LoPop                711     K4 V

   cor    2226    Skeen   B491A89-C       Ind HiPop               722     K1 V

   cor    2227    Lider . C357100-6       LoPop           703     K3 V M6 D

   cor    2232    Kuuma.  C538252-8       LoPop           902     M1 V M7 V

   cor    2237    Miregzi .       B203266-9       Ic LoPop Va             700     F9 V

   cor    2306    Erem Dash .     D645331-7       LoPop           703     M0 V M8 D

   cor    2312    Giikkala.       B79A753-B       Wa              103     K3 IV

   cor    2314    Laairer .       B559110-8       LoPop           904     A1 VI

   cor    2316    Idmum . C4447A8-7       Ag              802     M0 V M5 D

   cor    2317    Gikuu  .E571342-1       LoPop           910     M2 IV M8 D

   cor    2318    Kuunen Ish.     B210666-8       Na Ni           413     M4 V M7 D M5 D

   cor    2319    Ipduu In .      D979575-7       Ni              914     A1 V

   cor    2320    Uunli . E6B5000-0       Fl Ba           022     M3 III
		Changed Tl from 2, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2322    Shusa.  B58189C-A       Ri              804     M2 V M5 D

   cor    2323    Lezaar .B423A8B-8       Na Ind Po HiPop         803     K4 V

   cor    2326    Limeshuurgi.    E410000-0       Ba              010     K1 VI
		Changed Tl from 4 (Barren)

   cor    2327    Riias  .B759348-A       LoPop           113     M3 V

   cor    2330    Raami   C522966-B       Na Ind Po HiPop         403     M2 V

   cor    2334    Busirkher.      E233000-0       Po Ba           003     G7 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2335    Gish .  B555385-9       LoPop           403     M1 II

   cor    2336    Adan.   D661411-3       LoPop           903     K1 V M2 D

   cor    2338    Shinzarkan.     B455213-9       LoPop           614     M8 IV M0 V

   cor    2401    Erkiim .A52A111-B       Wa LoPop                103     M9 V M2 D

   cor    2403    Aaruu Zi .      B469325-8       LoPop           623     K1 V

   cor    2404    Gemi .  E400000-0       Va Ba           004     M4 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2405    Luunni Miu .    E576000-0       Ba              013     M0 V M0 D
		Changed Tl from 5, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2407    Lagaashin.      E767348-3       LoPop           910     K3 V

   cor    2408    Arnaki .A20098C-C       Na Ind HiPop Va         513     M1 V

   cor    2410    Uungip. C000576-9       Ni Ast Va               912     M7 II M9 D

   cor    2413    Kiur.   E651000-0       Po Ba           001     M3 IV M2 D M7  *

   cor    2414    Khaashuu.       AA7A345-8       Wa LoPop                500     M0 IV

   cor    2416    Argash  .       B755400-6       LoPop           404     K2 III M6 D

   cor    2419    Gash .  E544000-0       Ba      S       000     G3 V M7 D *
	
   cor    2422    Geiish .E473000-0      Ba              004     M1 V M9 D
  		Changed Tl from B, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2425    Diki Shi.       C200ABB-A       Na Ind HiPop Va         423     G1 VI M5 D

   cor    2429    Arka Uum.       B552224-6       Po LoPop                602     F2 V

   cor    2431    Kim .   D7A8331-3       LoPop           512     M1 V M1 VI

   cor    2433    Uumad  .D794400-5       LoPop           714     M2 V

   cor    2435    Iidkek. BAB4331-7       LoPop Fl                900     M5 IV M3 D

   cor    2437    Ligmuu .E636420-4       LoPop           402     M4 V K7 D

   cor    2439    Inmaeg. E384000-0       Ba              023     M7 V
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2501    Erani.  B000699-B       Na Ni Ast Va            100     M6 IV

   cor    2503    Gigi  . E000000-0       Ast Va Ba               004     M2 V K1 D
		Changed Tl from A, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2507    Ninnund  .      A98669B-9       Ag Ni Ri                410     M1 V K3 D

   cor    2511    Kuuir Am.       D477332-6       LoPop           902     M9 II M3 D

   cor    2513    Girku.  E89A000-0       Wa Ba           002     K1 V
 		Changed Tl from 1 (Barren)

   cor    2517    Imaar Pa.       E444000-0     Ba              002     M1 V M0 D
		Changed Tl from 1, starport from D  (Barren)

   cor    2519    Riiiid Irman.   E000134-7       Ast LoPop Va            804     G3 V

   cor    2521    Shipashuua .    E260000-0       De Ba           001     K4 V
		Changed Tl from 4 (Barren)

   cor    2524    Gimuur Luu .    E576000-0       Ba              003     M9 V
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2526    Kisa .  E7C6000-0       Fl Ba           002     K6 V M1 D M4 D
		Changed Tl from C, starport from A (Barren)

   cor    2529    Daa.    E56469C-3       Ag Ni Ri                614     M0 V

   cor    2532    Mie Uur.C110337-A       LoPop           603     K6 V

   cor    2534    Mid .   C648224-5       LoPop           402     M2 V

   cor    2536    Duunpigamuur .  D511766-7       Na Ic           424     M2 IV K9 D

   cor    2538    Duuind .B768340-8       LoPop           202     K6 IV

   cor    2540    Uumda  .C553100-6       Po LoPop                220     K3 V

   cor    2602    Gasa Kuu.       B444200-8       LoPop           201     M1 V M6 D

   cor    2603    Arunde. EAAA231-7       Wa LoPop                903     K4 V

   cor    2606    Margish Liir .  C347241-A       LoPop           805     K2 IV

   cor    2608    Duur .  B55737A-6       LoPop           513     M3 V M7 D

   cor    2609    Bambe . C599300-B       LoPop           713     M9 V

   cor    2610    Kerliar .       C5949BG-7       Ind HiPop               605     M4 V

   cor    2611    Kishkeiim .     C201423-8       Ic LoPop Va             703     M8 II M5 D

   cor    2615    Ispumer E381852-5       Ri              905     M3 VI M5 D K5

   cor    2616    Likhamii.       B53678A-6               103     M1 V M0 D

   cor    2623    Gurdaan B310635-B       Na Ni           514     M1 V

   cor    2624    Idas    A492310-C       LoPop           201     F2 V M5 D

   cor    2625    Imsha  .B224120-A       LoPop           204     K1 V M3 D

   cor    2628    Gashkanan.      B74A255-8       Wa LoPop                614     A4 V K7 D

   cor    2630    Shesh . C000100-A       Ast LoPop Va    S       704     M1 V

   cor    2631    Uurkuumluu.     E245000-0       Ba              013     M3 V M5 D
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2635    Arvlaa Gam .    E889377-3       LoPop           704     M3 V

   cor    2636    Vled  . C998200-8       LoPop           914     K7 V

   cor    2639    Suuashuur.      C100100-B       LoPop Va                403     G9 D

   cor    2640    Dishadshii      B614ACA-C       Ind Ic HiPop            804     M1 V

   cor    2703    Derku   C610A9E-A       Na Ind HiPop            303     M4 V M4 D

   cor    2705    Uundiirshiikis. E356000-0      Ba              001     M7 V
		Changed Tl from 5 (Barren)

   cor    2706    Sinmig .C364451-A       LoPop           214     K1 V

   cor    2707    Kalanaauud.     E525000-0       Ba              000     M1 V
		Changed Tl from 6, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    2709    Kimvle .A000669-C       Na Ni Ast Va            503     M0 V

   cor    2720    Lir .   B426100-9       LoPop           303     K8 IV M7 D

   cor    2721    Khuuda .B551256-6       Po LoPop                734     M1 V

   cor    2729    Gaar .  C360212-A       De LoPop                120     M9 V

   cor    2730    Maan.   B24146A-B       Po LoPop                203     K3 V

   cor    2731    Miip  . E631000-0       Po Ba           004     G0 V
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2732    Uurkhir.E9E7000-0       Fl Ba           002     G4 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2736    Gaen Luum .     C324365-9       LoPop           513     K2 V

   cor    2802    Gekhuu .B678555-8       Ag Ni           825     G2 V

   cor    2803    Kersi Am.       B427568-B       Ni              404     M4 V

   cor    2814    Muugkha .       D223133-6       Po LoPop                604     K4 V M4 D      *

   cor    2816    Indshiim Ganme. B86958D-A       Ni              803     G4 V

   cor    2821    Uuggarkirber.   C552567-6       Ni Po           504     A2 V

   cor    2823    Muumi.  D553300-9       Po LoPop                503     M0 V

   cor    2825    Bishaakuuka.    C683457-6       LoPop           723     M1 V

   cor    2829    Gishashum .     E100434-8       LoPop Va                424     M0 V M5 D

   cor    2830    Navlaand Sha.   EAC7110-5       LoPop Fl                514     M3 V M3 D

   cor    2832    Sinad   C458744-A       Ag              802     M4 V M5 D

   cor    2836    Khuir . B478ABA-9       Ind HiPop               204     M3 V

   cor    2837    Igla    B414553-D       Ni Ic           904     M2 V M9 D

   cor    2839    Gaeshme .       E783000-0       Ba              003     M1 VI M1 D
		Changed Tl from 6, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    2840    Gumir Gaeg .    B8C07BA-8       De              914     M8 III M4 D

   cor    2904    Ishnuunar.      E572535-3       Ni              220     M4 IV M6 D

   cor    2906    Damki Im .      B200ABG-9       Na Ind HiPop Va         903     G4 VI M9 D

   cor    2910    Shusa Liishli.  E211000-0       Ic Ba           023     K2 V M0 D
		Changed Tl from B, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    2912    Leer .  B7B3248-A       LoPop Fl                725     G2 V

   cor    2913    Khiuur La.      C8B3200-4       LoPop Fl                403     M3 V M2 D

   cor    2914    Mikhag Kuu .    B668797-7       Ag Ri           313     F0 V

   cor    2916    Khiinra Ash.    CAE6133-6       LoPop Fl                904     M2 IV M1 D
		Changed Law Level from 1 (See Anomalies 3)

   cor    2922    Ekugush B652698-7       Ni Po           904     M1 V M9 D

   cor    2924    Uushba Sind .   D564885-2       Ri              105     F4 V M0 D

   cor    2928    Vlaki Khuu .    A494586-B       Ag Ni           614     M8 V

   cor    2929    Danuuvlan .     E000000-0       Ast Va Ba               013     M1 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    2931    Dinenruum.      E332641-3       Na Ni Po                122     K1 IV M3 D M4

   cor    2933    Ganad   A656A96-B       HiPop           604     M0 V

   cor    2934    Dishe  .E778000-0       Ba              015     K9 V
		Changed Tl from A, starport from A (Barren)

   cor    2935    Amuur Keiir.    C472100-7       LoPop           113     A1 V

   cor    2936    Saregon A584522-C       Ag Ni           314     M3 V M6 D

   cor    2937    Uurigger .      C4347BD-8               403     M1 III M9 V

   cor    2938    ShakiigaC867841-9       Ri              310     K4 V

   cor    3002    Isuur . C344300-7       LoPop           920     K0 VI

   cor    3003    Iidsha  .       E665000-0       Ba              010     M6 V
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    3005    Aarza Kand.     C304645-8       Ni Ic Va                822     K1 V M4 D

   cor    3008    Mim .   A400466-B       LoPop Va                201     G2 V

   cor    3011    Laudum  B352ADD-9       Po HiPop                801     M8 V M1 D

   cor    3015    Anuug.  E783000-0      Ba              000     K6 V
		Changed Tl from 7, starport from C (Barren)

   cor    3019    Kinekesh.       C222100-B       Po LoPop                830     M3 V M7 D

   cor    3021    Kamsii  .       A45766B-8       Ag Ni           324     K1 V M7 D

   cor    3022    Gurishi B756676-9       Ag Ni           304     G0 V M3 D

   cor    3025    Manluushagi.    E200000-0       Va Ba           021     M7 V
		Changed Tl from 8, starport from D (Barren)

   cor    3026    Uumkishla .     C363100-6       LoPop           802     K0 V

   cor    3027    Guuza Bem .     C9D5322-6       LoPop Fl                223     M3 V M5 D M1 D

   cor    3028    Duuguu  .       A373246-C       LoPop           901     M2 V

   cor    3033    Ashmelam.       A424636-D       Ni              903     K2 V

   cor    3034    Iishaanka .     B554977-A       HiPop           603     K3 V M3 D

   cor    3037    Lashupii.       E665100-4       LoPop           722     M3 V

   cor    3039    Kiiguuga .      B8B4200-A       LoPop Fl                601     G0 V

   cor    3040    Unlakhar A629733-C               703     K3 V

   cor    3101    Edza .  E73A000-0       Wa Ba           004     G2 V M8 D
		Changed Tl from A, starport from B (Barren)

   cor    3103    Gar  .  B43968B-B       Ni              514     K4 V M4 V

   cor    3104    Aadkha Na.      E200120-6       LoPop Va                431     G0 V M6 D

   cor    3105    Kir.    C300542-B       Ni Va           910     M3 V

   cor    3106    Uumuurler .     B425222-9       LoPop           803     K8 V

   cor    3113    Urir Gug.       E342756-4       Po              604     M2 D M4 D

   cor    3115    Markasher       E100300-5       LoPop Va                320     K8 IV

   cor    3117    Khiiir  .       B200531-9       Ni Va           314     M5 IV

   cor    3118    Lemik   C56A723-A       Wa              411     K1 V

   cor    3121    Kagash  .       D55487B-4               202     M2 V M9 D

   cor    3123    Kankuup Ir .    B424AFG-8       Ind HiPop               114     M3 V

   cor    3125    Kadushii E695ADE-5       Ind HiPop               813     M2 V

   cor    3127    Arkadkhi .      C779235-A       LoPop           204     K2 IV

   cor    3128    Mish .  C679A86-9       Ind HiPop               803     M6 VI

   cor    3129    Keras Vla.      B867322-7       LoPop           903     K0 V

   cor    3130    Agdam Gii.      B5577CB-9       Ag              220     M9 III K8 D

   cor    3131    Ashga . A7C3424-A       LoPop Fl                413     K2 V M6 D
   cor    3132    Kiir .  E462000-0       Ba              010     G0 V M5 D
		Changed Tl from 9, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    3133    Nin  .  C362237-5       LoPop           402     M5 IV M3 D
   cor    3135    Arla .  B58A687-8       Ni Ri Wa                700     K2 V
   cor    3137    Iimdii .E493000-0       Ba              003     M1 V
		Changed Tl from 7, starport from C (Barren)
   cor    3140    Kerumirgaa .    A562220-8       LoPop           110     G0 IV
   cor    3203    Maain . D668530-4       Ag Ni           611     G3 V
   cor    3205    Iidshuu.C765356-6       LoPop           313     K9 IV M6 D
   cor    3206    Dim.    D646269-6       LoPop           904     M6 VI
   cor    3207    Imkhag Guu.     D56736A-4       LoPop           700     G2 V M4 D
   cor    3208    Agduu . E400000-0       Va Ba           004     M1 V M7 D
		Changed Tl from 8 (Barren)
   cor    3210    Kamnakiiaar .   A96545A-A       LoPop           405     K6 V
   cor    3211    Zikhi.  D427213-9       LoPop           902     M0 V M7 D M6 D

   cor    3216    Shand.  C964111-7       LoPop           713     K4 V M0 D
   cor    3218    Kaskii  B300767-E       Na Va           904     G4 V
   cor    3226    Duuka  .B686958-A       HiPop           300     F2 V
   cor    3227    Ashash As.      B758259-7       LoPop           403     M2 V M6 D
   cor    3234    Gau .   C433665-B       Na Ni Po                420     M5 III M2 D
   cor    3235    Daii .  C75A100-8       Wa LoPop                613     M1 V
   cor    3238    Luushdeam.      E560100-3       De LoPop                803     M2 V M4 D

   Ok, that's all folks... Please look at these bits of data yourselves as well, and help make sure we have 
correct sector data sometime soon!



Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:44:01 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phil McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1683

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:04:43 -0400, you wrote:

>On 08/13/97 at 11:33 PM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:
>
>>to the Vilani who have never encountered any organism remotely like it?
>>Small pox is another good one. The Terrans have a very good vaccine and
>>high natural immunity (if you catch chicken pox as a child you have a =
good
>>immunty against small pox). Drop a few aerosol bombs over some crowded
>>Vilani cities and bingo, a pandemic that puts the Black Death to shame.=
 I
>>don't think the Terrans ever would have actually done that, but it =
would
>>make for a **very** powerful deterant.=20
>
>Andrew, you make a good point, but you don't take it far enough.  The
>Terrans wouldn't have to distribute diseases with aerosol bombs, all =
they
>would have to do is sneeze.
>
>Whenever the Terrans interact with the Vilani they will be carrying all
>those childhood diseases that we catch and shrug off, like chicken pox,
>measles, mump. Diseases that absolutely destroyed natives in the =
Americas
>and the Pacific islands.  The effects on the Vilani will be every bit as
>bad as the effects the European explorers had on isolated native
>populations.=20

You are operating under something of a misapprehension here. Sure,
European diseases *did* have a high lethality rate on Pacific
Islanders who had never been exposed to them before, up to 90% for
some of what we would think of as "childhood" diseases. HOWEVER,
that's a "kill" rate NOT an "infection" rate.

In other words, somewhere between 5% and 90% of (based on experiences
in the Pacific Islands) of those who *catch* these diseases die. This
is NOT the same as 90% of the population dying off!!!

Diseases simply do not work like that.

Might I suggest that you look at --

"Plagues and Peoples" by William H. McNeill

Which is a bit dated, but I'm not aware of anything more up to date
that is as accessible. (and if anyone knows of anytrhing more up to
date, emauil me, I'd like to read it myself).=20

>Then there is the common cold...the Vilani will have NO immunity to any of
>the cold and flu viruses.  What percentage of Terrans die from a new strain
>of flu?  Not a huge number usually, but the Flu of 1919-20 killed millions,
>among the Vilani it would kill whole planets.

As a matter of interest the Spanish Flu killed, worldwide, perhaps 20
million people. Sounds like a lot, eh? But, wait a minute, what was
world population in 1918-20? Two Billion? (Close, I suspect) ... this
means that the Spanish Flu killed ... wait for it ... *one percent* of
the world's population!!!

Also note that the Spanish Flu was probably the worst, most lethal,
that is, pandemic in history ... it killed that many people on little
more than a year. This eclipses even the Bubonic Plague of the 1300's
which took 100 years (and multiple outbreaks) to reduce the population
of Europe by around 1/3rd (perhaps 20-30 million people).

So, we drop the Flu on a typical high-tech Vilani world with 2 Billion
people and kill 20 million. A public health disaster, but not one
likely to cause societal breakdown!

Also, as an interesting sidenote, the Spanish Flu evidently killed
only people between the ages of around 18 and 40 ... if your were
older or younger you didn't seem to either catch it or die of it (I
don't know which, the source I got that from didn't say).

>Then there is our friend E-coli, we carry strains of it around in our
>guts..*we* probably couldn't live without it. If we travel a few hundred
>miles and "drink the water" we're likely to shallow a *slightly* =
different
>strain of the bacteria and we get very sick. We can't keep food down, we
>get dehydriated, we get so sick we can't take care of ourselves, and in
>serious cases if somebody doesn't take care of us we die.  Imagine =
exposing
>any Vilani to *any* of our little friends? =20

Of course, the reverse is also true! The Vilani "version" of e coli
will have a similar deleterious effect on us ... "Vland's Revenge" so
to speak!

>Notice we haven't even gotten to the diseases *we* consider deadly.
>
>If you want my opinion, it will take the Vilani several generations to
>adapt to the dieases of Terra, and it quote a song from a few years ago,
>"...but there weren't near as many as there were a while ago."

Much less, based on Pacific Islands and New World experiences -- a
generation at most.

Phil
- -----------------------------------------
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Co-Author, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:57:47 -0400
From: Kevin Combs <KCOMBS@mdems.ab.umd.edu>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1997 #1680 -Reply

Rules:   Update 8/14/97  -  07:00 EDT         

Please check to see if you have won any items in my auction.

If so and you are not bidding on anything else, please
email me your smail address along with a list of the items
won and I can get a postage amount.

If so and you are still bidding on other items, please
continue and email the above info when the bidding stops.

1. Bids in US dollars. Minimum bid is listed. Bid in $.50 
increments for items under $10. $1.00 increments over $10.

2. Buyout offers will be considered.

3. Buyer pays shipping.

4. I prefer money orders, but I will take checks. I will 
hold items for one week so checks can clear my bank.  All 
checks must be drawn on a U.S. bank and in U.S. currency.

5. I reserve the right to pull any item for any reason. 

6. This auction will be updated every day.

7. The going x1, going x2, gone process will be used after
the first 10 days of the auction. Items will upgraded to 
the next level every two days when no bids are recieved.

8. Send all bids to kevin013@earthlink.net.

9. The following conditions will be used:   
    (MN) Item is perfect.
    (UP) Complete with the counters unpunched.
    (Ex) This item has been used/read, with minor marks.
    (PU) Complete with counters punched.  I do not know if 
         all counters are present.
    Some other comments regarding condition are noted as needed.  

Traveller Related Items
GDW     Fifth Frontier War (Box has some scuff    
        marks and is slightly pushed in)
        $50.00 pnewman@alaska.net (8/14)
        $45.00 DMoody@bridge.com 

DGP     101 Vehicles                              
        $ 9.00 mark.samuels@questintl.com  gone

DGP     Referee's Gaming Kit                      
        Buyout - $12.00 - gone

DGP     Starship Operator's Manual                
        $16.00 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
        
GDW     Azhanti High Lightning (50% unpunched     
        does not have the tech manual or combat
        chart)
        Buyout - $40.00 - gone
        
Judge's 
Guild   Doom of the Singing Star                  MN  
        $ 6.50 efh@student.umass.edu - gone
                
Judge's 
Guild   Starships & Spacecraft                    MN  
        $ 5.50 efh@student.umass.edu gone

Martian 
Metals  15mm Traveller Figures (217 painted &     
        mounted 15mm Traveller figures.  Figure
        types includes Kree, Humanoid, Vargr, 
        Zhodani, Droyne, Robots and others.  Large  
        variety of posses, weapons, and clothing.  
        Also included is a 15mm 2-seat hovercraft 
        and 10 15mm Star Wars painted figures.  A
        total of 228 painted figures.)
        Buyout - $150.00 - gone!
        

AD&D Related Items                                        Co     
TSR     Art of the Dragonlance Saga               Ex  
        $11.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/11) going x1
        $10.00 BFireforge@aol.com

TSR     World of Krynn Trail Map                  
        $16.00 stephan.Lange@iwf-mt.tu-berlin.de (8/11) going x1
        $15.00 BFireforge@aol.com 

TSR     Al-Qadim Rulebook (slight cover tear)     Ex  
        $ 3.00 pblood@transbay.net gone
           
TSR     Atlas of the Dragonlance World            Ex
        $12.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
        
TSR     Castle Greyhawk                           
        $17.00 EugHarvey@aol.com gone
        $16.00 tarquin@ro.com 
        
TSR     DL 1 - Dragons of Despair                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 2 - Dragons of Flame                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 5 - Dragons of Mystery                 Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 6 - Dragons of Ice                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 7 - Dragons of Light                   Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 8 - Dragons of War                     Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL 9 - Dragons of Deceit                  Ex  $ 3.00
TSR     DL10 - Dragons of Dreams                  Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Dragonlance Classics Vol I                Ex  
        $ 8.00 lazascan@aol.com gone

TSR     Dragonlance Saga Book One                 Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Gnomes - 100, Dragons - 0                 Ex  $ 3.00
        $ 5.00 jhascher@gte.net gone
        $ 4.00 lazascan@aol.com 

TSR     Keep on the Borderlands                   Ex  $ 3.00

TSR     Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home      Ex  $ 3.00


Space 1889 Related Items
GDW     Cloudships and Gunboats                   
        $ 4.50 pnewman@alaska.net (8/14)
        $ 4.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net 

GDW     Legions of Mars (21 - 25mm unpainted      
        figures)
        $17.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz (8/14)
        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com 
        $12.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        
GDW     Sky Galleons of Mars (also includes a     
        copy of Cloudships & Gunboats)
        $20.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11) going x1
        $17.00 pnewman@alaska.net
        $16.00 Thorinn3@aol.com 
        $15.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com 

GDW     Soldier's Companion                                  Ex
        $15.00 DMoody@bridge.com (8/11) going x1
        $11.00 Thorinn3@aol.com
        $10.00 egc@northnet.org 

GDW     Victorian Adventurers (10 - 25mm          
        unpainted figures)
        $16.00 cgriffen@cisco.com (8/14)
        $16.00 rfields@actrix.gen.nz
        $15.00 ggm1201@dmacc.cc.ia.us 
                        
GDW     Canal Priests of Mars                     
        $ 6.00 Thorinn3@aol.com gone
                
GDW     Caravans of Mars                          
        $ 5.50 gmgoffin@pacbell.net gone
                
GDW     Cloud Captains of Mars                    
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
        $ 6.00 pnewman@alaska.net 
        
GDW     Conklin's Atlas of the World              
        $ 6.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
                
GDW     Ironclads & Ether Flyers                  
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
                
GDW     More Tales from the Ether                 
        $ 7.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
        
GDW     Referee's Screen                          
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net
        $ 3.00 pnewman@alaska.net

GDW     Space 1889 Rule Book (Hardback)           
        $ 8.00 terrell_scoggins@bigfoot.com gone
        $ 5.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Steppelords of Mars                       
        $ 4.00 pnewman@alaska.net gone
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net

GDW     Tales from the Ether (some cover marks)   
        $ 3.00 jlong@wilmington.net gone

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1686
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1687



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1st I.W.
Re: M:21C; I-Wars
Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War
Re: Archologies
Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list
Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?
Femicide
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: (Fwd) Re: How to unsubscribe
PE HAS MILLIONS OF FAULTS IN IT
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1683
Re: Archologies
Re: Femicide
Re: Core sector revision
E21 Countries, revision 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:23:23 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 1st I.W.

>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:14:24 PST
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: 1st I.W.

>In mail you write:

>> Almost certainly the concept that the Terrans could have developed
>> jump drive independently would have been inconcievable to the Vilani.
>> They would assume despite the Terrans claims that they must have
>> somehow copied it from them or one of their clients. Again another
>> factor in the Terrans favour "These Terrans just copy our technology,
>> they'll never actually develop any of their own".

>Gonna be *real* hard to justify that when it becomes obvious that the
>Terrans have J-3.

Very true, which is why its such an advantage for the Terrans "This just
can't be happening, I don't care if our intelligence says they have Tl 12,
they just can't and that's that." Of course when it does become painfully
obvious that the Terrans have surpased them, the Vilani mindset carries
a huge amount of baggage that prevents them from reacting. Plus they have
no meaningful capablity to reverse engineer Terran technology, their
scientists just don't think that way. "Copy a meson gun? But we'd be
infringing on patent".

>> make for a **very** powerful deterant. What I think the Terrans would have
>> done is used debilitating non-leathal biowar agents. Drop one on a world you
>> want to take and watch it's infrastucture collapse as they try to cope
>> with 80% of their population sick in bed. Sure they'll get better in a few
>> weeks, but by then the Terran troops have landed and are in control.

>Trouble is *finding* agents that are that mild. Given that the Vilani
>have 300,000 years of isolated development, the odds are strong that
>anything that causes noticeable illness in Terrans will be life
>threatening to Vilani (check the experiments that raised animals in a
>sterile environment). So you'd have to use Vilani as guinea pigs to
>find some organism that we aren't affected by at all (100% immunity)
>that they have enough immunity to to survive.

You don't need 100% immunity, you just need effects on Terrans not too
"unplesant", a reasonable level of natural immunity boosted by a vaccine,
and a good treatment for it. We have a host of symbiotic bacteria and
viruses which would be good candidates for geneering (a Terran speciality)
into Vilani specific biowar agents. However, as you point out, testing them
would be a problem, but not insurmountable.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:23:06 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: M:21C; I-Wars

>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:17:52 -0700
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: M:21C; I-Wars

>Hello,
>>>Did you perchance catch my highly unoffical history of the IWs?

>  Loved `em (snip!). Do you mind if I print a copy for my Imperium box?

Feel free, I'm very flattered :*).

>>>years, those pinpricks could start to add up and the Vilani's
>>>war balance sheet move into the red. When this happened, the

>  I like the interpretation, plus can you imagine how underwhelmed
>a sector governor would be when told that the solution to commerce
>raiders was to slow military ship production to arm merchants (which
>could then become real pirates in peacetime)?

The most likely Vilani response would be to convoy. This would have the
effect of hurting trade all by itself, plus pull valuable military assests
out of the front line. Then there's all the warships tied down trying to
hunt down the pesky little raiders (a 10 to 1 ratio is not unreasonable).
Worse still, the Terrans initally control such a limited area, that doing
the same back is impractical.

>>>Almost certainly the concept that the Terrans could have developed
>>>jump drive independently would have been inconcievable to the Vilani.

>  Here's a thought; given Vilani technology handling from V&V, would
>they really believe that reverse engineering anything was practical?

Probably not. They'd believe that someone had actually come a long and
handed jump drives to the Terrans. Which would make it inconvieable to them
that the Terrans could then improve their own tech by reverse engineering
Vilani items. When it became apparent that the Terrans could reverse
engineer, it would be equally inconvieable that the Terrans could improve
on their technology. When it became apparent that this was also false a very
real inferiority complex would likely set in. The way I see things is that
the Terrans would quickly build up a reputation for being "supermen" in the
Vilani mind. "You copy our technology, You change our technology, You live
with disease and you change yourselves. How can one fight an enemy such as
this" (A quote from an unknown Vilani prisoner during the Nth Interstellar
Wars).

>>>The biowar element would be the Terrans "ace in the hole". Not only do

>  It might explain why the Vilani didn't go for their genocide schtick.
>We assume the Terrans don't want to provoke them, and want the real estate
>anyways.

I've always seen the Terrans in the IW's as being more driven by ethical
concerns than the Vilani. The Terrans place a far higher emphasis on
individual freedom and have just recently emerged from the late 20th Century
insanity. The Vilani place their emphasis on the needs of the community and
have been ruling hordes of "lesser" races for thousands of years. Anyhow if
you want just the real estate, biowar is they way to go. That way you also
get vacant possession :*).

I've always thought of the Vilani as being a relatively impassionate lot
when compaired with Terrans. The Vilani might wipe out a race for "good"
practical reasons; the Terrans would do it because they pissed them off :*).

>>>they have far superior biological and medical technology, but they also
>>>have access to the largest resevior of pathogens and organisms specifically
>>>evoloved to attack humans in the galaxy;               ^^^

>  Is that a reference to microbes or other humans? :>

Well I was meaning parasites, but I know some "higher" organisms would fit
into that catergory too :*). Besides, I'd hazzard a guess that deep down
the Vilani are just as good at killing one another as us Terrans :*).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:22:56 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 11:57:13 -0500
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: 1st IW: The Bio-War

>On 08/13/97 at 11:33 PM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>>to the Vilani who have never encountered any organism remotely like it?
>>Small pox is another good one. The Terrans have a very good vaccine and
>>high natural immunity (if you catch chicken pox as a child you have a good
>>immunty against small pox). Drop a few aerosol bombs over some crowded
>>Vilani cities and bingo, a pandemic that puts the Black Death to shame. I
>>don't think the Terrans ever would have actually done that, but it would
>>make for a **very** powerful deterant. 

>Andrew, you make a good point, but you don't take it far enough.  The
>Terrans wouldn't have to distribute diseases with aerosol bombs, all they
>would have to do is sneeze.

>Whenever the Terrans interact with the Vilani they will be carrying all
>those childhood diseases that we catch and shrug off, like chicken pox,
>measles, mump. Diseases that absolutely destroyed natives in the Americas
>and the Pacific islands.  The effects on the Vilani will be every bit as
>bad as the effects the European explorers had on isolated native
>populations.

I was actually only thinking of the Terrans deliberately using biowar agents,
but once the Terrans moved in on a planet the results would have been very
devestating for the Vilani (and all the other minor human races). I'd
expect a die back (there's a quaint term for you) of greater than 50%. I
don't have the figures at my fingertips, but I believe that the Conquistadors
achieved something like that with the Mezoamericans and they were only
seperated by 30,000 years or so. I think it actually would have come as
quite an unpleasant shock to the Terrans. They conquer a planet and suddenly
everybodies dying. Not exactly the image one wants to project to the galaxy *).

>Then there is the common cold...the Vilani will have NO immunity to any of
>the cold and flu viruses.  What percentage of Terrans die from a new strain
>of flu?  Not a huge number usually, but the Flu of 1919-20 killed millions,
>among the Vilani it would kill whole planets.

>Then there is our friend E-coli, we carry strains of it around in our
>guts..*we* probably couldn't live without it. If we travel a few hundred
>miles and "drink the water" we're likely to shallow a *slightly* different
>strain of the bacteria and we get very sick. We can't keep food down, we
>get dehydriated, we get so sick we can't take care of ourselves, and in
>serious cases if somebody doesn't take care of us we die.  Imagine exposing
>any Vilani to *any* of our little friends?

Well, the Vilani must have E-coli and a host of other symbiotic microbes too.
After all they did come from Terra originally. so they would have some degree
of immunity, just not a hell of a lot.

>Notice we haven't even gotten to the diseases *we* consider deadly.

>If you want my opinion, it will take the Vilani several generations to
>adapt to the dieases of Terra, and it quote a song from a few years ago,
>"...but there weren't near as many as there were a while ago."

This is the "real" reason for Solomani domination of the rim. These worlds
would have had a Vilani population at least an order of magnitude greater
than the entire Confederation, but along come our pals Influenza et al; and
hey presto the rim gets a whole lot less populated. The only way for the
Vilani to survive is to become Solomani. The Vilani culture makes them a lot
more vulnerable, all nicely prepackaged for disease.

>Eris

>ps. I have an alternative to the beginning contacts between the Terrans and
>Vilani, that is *much* different from what I've been seeing suggested here. 
>Andrew, I absolutely *loved* your outline though. ;->  I'll try to write it
>up and post it. -- 

I'd love to see it. My history is fundimentally influenced by my "age of sail"
bias (I look at Traveller and see parallels to my favorite historical era).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:00:18 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Archologies

  If you want to see the conception of an archology, check out
Microsoft's expansion throughout Redmond and Bellevue.  Office parks -
right next to Company appartment buildings...you might see an "actual"
archology by 2010 at the rate MS is growing.   Sure...let 'em keep all
their eggheads in one basket ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:58:43 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Idiots from Singapore trying to get off the list

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

>At 04:07 PM 8/13/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>I tried sending the "cremark" fellow a polite message on how to get off this
>>list and I got the same message as Nick. I tried being polite. I really did.
>>Maybe if the jerk sees this he will kindly read the instructions at the end
>>of the .....FREAKIN' list
>
>I tried sending a complete copy of his request, my (polite) reply, and his
>asinine response to it to his postmaster.
>
>Utter failure - apparently, they did not define postmaster, and I could not
>find a whois record for them.  The second copy went to root.  I suppose I
>could threaten to send a half a billion "Please send me information on your
>nose hair clippers" messages to various cyberpromo sites, but I have a
>feeling that this would lose me the moral high ground.


	F**K the moral high ground!  I say we nuke his site from orbi..<slap!>

	Seriously, though, I think that cremark is just a little bit new to
the net, and we shouldn't try to traumatize him over-much, especially as he
seems to be over his storage limit.

	I'm sure this will all eventually get straightened out...

	And scary thought about 30 billion people's worth of Spam there :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 13:44:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Martial Arts in T4.1?

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:05:00 EDT, CardSharks@aol.com Wrote...

> Draft Text from Skill Chapter in T4.1
>       Brawling (Fighting)     Dex, Str
>       Brawling is an unstructured hand-to-hand fighting skill. It is
> learned by experience (rather than taught). The individual is familiar
> with the processes of conflict resolution through violence. He has an
> understanding his personal abilities and limitations when interacting
> violently with others.
>       Brawling is one of three members of the Fighting skill cascade
> (the others are Melee and Environmental Combat). Brawling encompasses
> unarmed, unstructured hand-to-hand combat. In contrast, Melee is
> structured hand-to-hand combat (boxing, wrestling, martial arts).
> Environmental Combat involves fighting in High G or Zero-G, or special
> situations (such as underwater).
    Okay, that's a major change for Melee from T4.0 where it specifically
states that Melee combat is for the use of hand held weapons.  How were you
planning to handle Melee weapons in T4.1 if I may be so bold as to ask?
    Understand I don't go out and run Martial Arts campaigns that happen to be
Traveller.  However a goodly number of my players over the years have been
Martial Artists an in lower tech cultures the development of this sort of thing
is pretty much guareenteed!  Just look at all the Hundreds of fighting styles
that have evolved around the world if you doubt me.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 13:43:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Femicide

> One thing you might want to take into account is the fact that the
> "one child" rule in China has led to a massive imbalence in the sexes.
> As boys are considered more valuable that girls, i.e. you don't have
> to pay douries for boys, a lot of backwater China has a nice habit of
> drowing girls at birth. I also hear that they use ultrasound in the
> big citys to find out before birth.
    India has a similar problem/practice, the practice now has a name.
Femicide, the murdering of infant or pre-infant girls because their sex is
inconvient.  If memory serves the World Health Organizations and a bunch of
Human Rights groups are estimating that the death toll runs into the tens of
millions by now, with no end in sight.  In India the ultrasound has begun
moving out into the countryside and the aborting of fetuses for sex selection
is an accepted and approved practice of the IMA.
    It's a cultural thing unfortunately, girls and women are simply not
considered as valuable by these cultures, or worse, expensive.  Throughout
their history there have always been more then enough women for men seeking
wives.  The question is can their societies, heck their cultures SURVIVE male
to female ratios of 3 to 5 or more to 1?

> Once all these men grow up and have trouble finding wives, imagine the
> ammount of trouble a china filled with testosterone will be in Asia.
> Oh be aware that this is all based on vauge stuff I've heard in the
> news so is definately subject to error :-).
    No, you are quite correct, it IS a looming problem.  Those men are going to
want and demand women, in the traditional mold they grew up with.  And here we
sit in the West with a surplus of women... ::shudder:: The Pentagon is already
quietly putting contingency plans into place for this BTW.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 13:43:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:14:12, sre@taz.compulink.co.uk Wrote...

> The air in the balloon is constantly being heated by the sun
> light falling on it ... but it is not enough to lift the balloon.
> You would need a much larger mirror surface area than the balloon
> to heat up the air enough to produce sufficient lift for the
> balloon + characters.
    How about focused mirrors?  I remember back in the Boy Scouts using mildly
concave mirrors to start fires by focusing the sun's energy.  So is it possible
to convey that heat energy across a fabric which is containing the Hot Air?

> They could always suspend a piece of (black) bassalt rock in the
> ballon and heat it up with phasers on low poweer ... oops, wrong
> game :-)
    ::chuckle:: A fact which the players have bitched about repeatedly given
the situation they are in!

> The characters don't need that much heat (relative to a high TL)
> to make the balloon fly, and they should be able to manage a
> jury-rig if they have a laser power pack or something similar to
> heat wood or coal  and make it burn fast enough to replace the
> original source of heat.
    Never assume, that's for me BTW.  I forgot the entire list isn't in my game
and thus doesn't know the situtation...
    The situation is as follows... The PCs were passengers on a big liner which
had paused in this system to refuel at the planetary starport via shuttles the
liner had BTW.  After various skuddugery related to an old debt one of the
characters owed to a certain mobster and thus was supposedly being killed for,
and the rest of the group stumbling into the attempt... the PCs ended up in a
sabotaged lifecraft which they managed to keep from burning up on reentry but
was pretty badly wreaked on landing.  Thus they are trapped on this TL3 world,
on the other side of the planet from the minimal starport (D) facilities.
    The planet D-A96770-3 has the atmospheric taint of Too Much Oxygen at the
lower levels, enough to kill you rather quickly actually.  It't fairly
geologically active however so about 8% of the surface, in the form of mountain
tops and high platues, is above the Oxygen toxicity level and thus habitable.
And the locals use Hot Air Balloons to move from one safe area to another.
    Problem is the PCs seriously pissed off the locals where they landed and
have had to pretty much make their own balloon from scratch and are now trying
to sail it around the planet to get to the Starport.  So they can't use any
tech above about early TL4, knowledge of it is another matter entirely!
    Thus the Lady playing the academic came up with the bright idea of using
focused mirrors to heat the air inside their jury-rigged balloon to higher
temperatures then they've been getting burning the equivalent of the local
swamp gas. ;) Especially since buying fuel to burn to keep the balloon in the
air is an expensive proposition to them.  FoEx; One of the natives took a wad
of ten Cr notes and used them as toilet paper, which really blew the Rogue
character's mind!
    But it's the focused mirror idea that's got me a bit stuck.  Her plan,
barring violations of the laws of physics OC, is to use a couple to catch the
local sunlight and focus it through the fabric and into the hot air interior.
Her reasoning being that if you can use focused sunlight to cook food.  You can
both she and I have seen it done before.  Then you can use it to heat air in an
enclosed space.  Perhaps even superheat it to 200 or 300+ over the air
surrounding the balloon for greater lift.
    That's where I, as the long suffering GM, get stuck trying to figure out if
it would work. ;)  In short... HELP!?!

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:26:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: How to unsubscribe

This is truly amazing. Somehow, you ended up subscribed to a mailing list.
Someone on the list sent you a polite email telling you how to unsubscribe
(since its all automated, he was helping you; he couldn't unsubscribe you
himself). Your response was a rude rude statement about only your friends can
send you email.

Which just begs me to email you back telling you how rude that was. Unless,
of course, that rude message is an automated one you have set up to
automatically go to anyone not on your friends list.

In which case your outrage at being mistakenly subscribed to our mailing list
becomes ludicrous.

Sincerely

Marc Miller

CardSharks@aol.com

In a message dated 97-08-14 00:48:24 EDT, you write:

<< 
 ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
 To:            n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk
 From:          cremark@pacific.net.sg
 Reply-to:      cremark@pacific.net.sg
 Subject:       Re: How to unsubscribe
 Date:          Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:31:14 +0800
 
 THIS IS A WARNING
 Do not keep sending me mail if you do not know me.
 Only people whom I know are welcome to send me mail. 
 
 "KEEP OUT OF MY E_MAIL ADDRESS"
 
 All Mail will be reported...... 
 
 ------------------------------------------------------
 
 To which I say, I sent you precisely one email telling you how to 
 unsubscribe to a list.  In the process of asking how this was done, 
 you sent junk email to tens, hundreds of people, not once but several 
 times.  Please remove the plank from your eye.
 
 Here are the instructions I tried to send to avoid wasting bandwidth. 
 Please use them.
 
 And don't come back.
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:46:09 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: PE HAS MILLIONS OF FAULTS IN IT

Anyone here understand "sarcasm?"

A number of people seem to have totally misunderstood my post on the PE
"transport" 'bug', e.g.

>Yes I am insinuating that this PE rule is blatantly wrong and calling it
>not a "bug" but a "feature" is laughable...

Clearly I have to refrain from using sarcasm in my posts. Being a worker at
a large (telecommunications) corporation, and an avid reader of Dilbert
cartoons, renaming "bugs" as "opportunities" is an accepted way of life.
Obviously my post was meant to indicate that the transport "bug" was an
accepted fault of the system, but that (as per usual on the TML) someone
would come up with an acceptable fix. Clearly the message didn't get
interpreted that way.

The entire PE work was completed to a ridiculously short ("challenging")
development and play-testing time. PE has, to my knowledge, received a much
more positive reaction than most of the preceding T4 products.

Given that I'm trying to finish yet another 101 book for publishing by
European GEN CON in the next week or so (plus all the tournaments and God
knows what else I'm doing at the moment), plus starting the first
compilation of data for writing a World Design Handbook for IG, I really
honestly didn't have the time to sit down and redesign a fix for your
complaints about the war system.

Just to reiterate:

* THE WAR SYSTEM IN POCKET EMPIRES IS A VERY SIMPLISTIC METHOD OF PLAYING
OUT INTERSTELLAR COMBAT

* IT GIVES YOU MORE DETAIL THAN JUST ROLLING A SINGLE "COMBAT" TASK (as
given elsewhere in PE)

* IT IS BY NO MEANS INTENDED TO BE A REPLACEMENT FOR BRILLIANT LANCES,
BATTLE RIDER, FFW OR ANY OTHER STELLAR COMBAT SYSTEM.

* IT IS DELIBERATELY DESIGNED NOT TO SCARE OFF THE MULTITUDE OF READERS WHO
ARE NOT AVID WARGAMERS AND WHO DO NOT WANT TO CALCULATE EVERYTHING TO 35
DECIMAL PLACES

* DUE TO ITS SIMPLICITY, IT HAS A NUMBER OF PRETTY OBVIOUS FAULTS.

Note the last line. Admission of total liability. Stu and I worked on the
system and did the best we could in the time available. I wouldn't want to
have Stu blamed for anything, since I did the final editing. It's my fault,
all mine!

Thank you to those who have, rather than just complaining, suggested fixes.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:08:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1683

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Phil McGregor wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:04:43 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >On 08/13/97 at 11:33 PM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
> ><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:
> >

Snip of good analysis of disease patterns and rates
 
> So, we drop the Flu on a typical high-tech Vilani world with 2 Billion
> people and kill 20 million. A public health disaster, but not one
> likely to cause societal breakdown!

FIrstly, the Spanish flu, and the Black Death, even were both handled by
people with some clue to the germ theory of disease...people were
quarantined, and the highest infection rates were in areas where lots of
people lived in close proximity...sort of like the Vilani way of communal
living. I'm not sure that the Vilani have all that developed a system for
infectious disease, particularly as harsh (to them) a treatment as
quarantine.

Secondly, you don't need high death rates to make a disease an important
factor in warfare...all you need is to incapacitate enough people, by
making them sick, making them care for the sick, or making them do the
jobs of 5 or 6 people who are sick or caring for the sick to make
everything collapse. Not a fall down go boom kinda collapse, but it is
a distinct military advantage to have. Arranging a garbage strike two
weeks in advance of an attack will accomplish the same thing, in a highly
populated area.

(Spoken as a survivor of the Great New York Garbage Strike sometime in the
80's...there were piles of garbage 15-20 ft high in places...made getting
around the city _interesting_ to say the least. We had the biggest %#$@
rats for a while after that...)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:12:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Archologies

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, David A. Bussey wrote:

>   If you want to see the conception of an archology, check out
> Microsoft's expansion throughout Redmond and Bellevue.  Office parks -
> right next to Company appartment buildings...you might see an "actual"
> archology by 2010 at the rate MS is growing.   Sure...let 'em keep all
> their eggheads in one basket ;-)

Makes for a better target for that near-C Virock!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:41:02 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Femicide

- -> Femicide, the murdering of infant or pre-infant girls because their sex is
- -> inconvient.  If memory serves the World Health Organizations and a bunch of
- -> Human Rights groups are estimating that the death toll runs into the tens of
- -> millions by now, with no end in sight.  In India the ultrasound has begun
- -> moving out into the countryside and the aborting of fetuses for sex selection
- -> is an accepted and approved practice of the IMA.
- ->     It's a cultural thing unfortunately, girls and women are simply not
- -> considered as valuable by these cultures, or worse, expensive.  Throughout
- -> their history there have always been more then enough women for men seeking
- -> wives.  The question is can their societies, heck their cultures SURVIVE male
- -> to female ratios of 3 to 5 or more to 1?
<Sarcasm>
If not, it should take care of that country's overpop-problem!
</sarcasm>

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:44:00 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Core sector revision

<bill prankard wrote>
 ->  cor    1938    Keshi   B5662C9-B       LoPop           114     K3 V M1 D M0 
 -> D
 -> Gov and Law Level changed from 0;  Gov could also be A, depending on  
 -> how the monarchy was organized. Law Level is a guess, based on the 
 -> paragraphs: "moves against th Kingdom were harshly dealt with"
 -> TL raised from 7, as the Chanestin Kingdom was almost at par with the SF
 -> (TD10, M:0)
 -> 
 -> cor    1940    Nii  .  B548A8D-8       Ind HiPop               420     M6 
 -> III
 -> 
 -> I see I may have to revise my original thoughts about the Chanestins.  Not 
 -> Chant as I thought, but Keshi is canonical acording to TD10(which I do not 
 -> have ).  Keshi's low pop has alwas bothered me a bit(100 people?), but 
 -> notice neighboring Nii, with a pop of 40 Billion.  Could have Keshi been 
 -> just an administrative world where the royal family lived?  Or have most of 
 -> the population of Keshi fled to Nii(a possible Chanestin World) during the 
 -> wars in which the SF basicly bombed Keshi into submission by year 0 (M:0 
 -> says Keshi fell in Year 2)?
 Could be possible.... It might also warrant another change, such as 
 upping the pop of Keshi!  Or we just leave it thus to allow every DM 
 to find his own explanation!
 -> Please do not neglect the fact that there should be some naval bases by this 
 -> time in this sector, the other sectors have them.  I am still confused by 
 -> the fact that there are Scout bases on worlds with E class starports, which 
 -> does not follow the rules(must have at least a D class to have a chance at a 
 -> Scout base)  Should we up these worlds to a D class, or drop the Scout base. 
 ->  Personaly I would upgrade the E to D to make the worlds fit in with the 
 -> rules as dropping a scout base would drasticaly alter the world's profile.
 Yes, i'd agree... I didn't even check for bases in my revisions, my 
 changes were just to the UWP! Maybe we should just leaver the bases as 
 is and up the Starport, maybe scout bases are less capable in M:0 and 
 thus don't require a D- Port... 
  
 
 
 
 -> cor    2017    Kain .  E576000-9       LoPop   S       821     M7 V
 -> Changed UWP from E576244-4: First Imperium colony didn't survive (TD8)
 -> Only TL-9 ruins remain. (TD8)
 -> 
 -> Upgrade E to D because of Scout Base present.
 Good idea!
 -> 
 -> Now this was some cool info on this Sylean Neighbor(In M:0 Shaaak is the 
 -> next closest neighbor, but was not an original SF member)  I am going to 
 -> redo my "RICE" type paper on this one.  There is also some info on this 
 -> world in Psi Institutes, which I may mail to you sometime in the future if 
 -> you do not have it.  The info about 1st Imperia Ruins will make this not 
 -> only a scout training world, but an archelogical world as well.
 Damn! Forgot to check PI... I havew it. but havn't read it completely 
 yet (just busy reading Flaming Eye at the moment)
 -> What I was thinking for Kain, is that since this world was mostly 
 -> uninhabated even during the 2nd Imperium, that some kind of 
 Interdict was in 
 -> efect during the latter days of the 1st Imperium.  It was a failed colony, 
 -> and such would create legends and even horor stories.  Who knows Kain(which 
 -> sounds very much like "Caine" in Solomani Myth) could mean forbidden, or 
 -> "bad mojo" in Vilani.  Needless to say, nobody wanted to go there during the 
 -> late Ziru Sirka/early RoM, even the belters shyed away from the mainworld of 
 -> Kain.  During the night, most of these legends of the lost colony were 
 -> forgotten or lost to antiquity.  After the long night, the SF basicaly 
 -> looked to the system for its belts, Kain was not set up as a colony, it was 
 -> set up as a scout training base, and is not a pleasant world.  (7 is 
 -> standard Tainted atmosphere IIRC) Its sufuric air content is rather high, 
 -> vulcanism and earthquakes are common as it is so close to the M7V star and 
 -> the GG it orbits.  Cold, but not frigid.  It was during a Scout Survival 
 -> Training Mission that the TL-9 ruins were discovered.
 Good idea, i like it a lot!
 -> 
 -> That's my 0.02cr worth, again excellent work my friend!
 Thanks.... Any other comments from the TML-posse?
 Come on it isn't that hard to do a sector.....
 Only takes about 5-10 hours apiece (depending on level of detail) and 
 helps greatly! I already did two of them!
 Do those other sectors.......
 Any volunteers????

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: 14 Aug 1997 12:06 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: E21 Countries, revision 2

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far.  Here is the
next revision of numbers.  I swapped out GNP for a perhaps
more appropriate infrastructure rating measuring a country's
investment in space stuff.  Bound to need a bit of tweaking.

Milieu E21 Spacefaring Nations

Player		Popul		Space Infrastructure (1-F)
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Argentina	?		3
Australia	?		1
Brazil		?		2
China		1.5B		8
Egypt		?		?
Europe		1B		6
India		2B		4
Indonesia	800M		3
Japan		150M		4
Korea		150M		4
Nigeria		200M		?
Philippines	?		?
Russia		?		5
US		400M		6
Zaire		?		?


Milieu E21 Spaceborne Companies

Company		Research  Engine   Installation	  Systems
- --------------------------------------------------------------
Maglev			  Launch
On~oco			  Orbital
Eucliptic		  	   Belter
OshimaCo			   Orbital
Albatross	Grav				  Landing
Rimrock		                   Surface
Castile			           Mining

others?  changes?

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1687
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1688



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: Archologies
Re: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires
Re:Spacefaring nations and economics
Re: Mileu:E21
T41 Skills Draft A Academic
T41 Skills Draft Introduction
T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft
T41 Skills Draft A Art
T41 Skills Draft B Biology
T41 Skills Draft B Battle Dress
T41 Skills Draft A Archeology
T41 Skills Draft A Administration
T41 Skills Draft A Acting
T41 Skills Draft A Armorer
T41 Skills Draft B Blade Combat
T41 Skills Draft A Athletics
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules:
Re:T41 Chargen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:12:29 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

(snip)
>> They could always suspend a piece of (black) bassalt rock in the
>> ballon and heat it up with phasers on low poweer ... oops, wrong
>> game :-)

(snip)
>    But it's the focused mirror idea that's got me a bit stuck.  Her
plan,
>barring violations of the laws of physics OC, is to use a couple to
catch the
>local sunlight and focus it through the fabric and into the hot air
interior.
>Her reasoning being that if you can use focused sunlight to cook food.
You can
>both she and I have seen it done before.  Then you can use it to heat
air in an
>enclosed space.  Perhaps even superheat it to 200 or 300+ over the air
>surrounding the balloon for greater lift.

I think you would need to use the "basalt rock" method with the mirrors.

If you don't have something to focus the mirrors on, you need to focus
on a *point*
(i.e. a geometry style point ... infinitesimal), an impossibe task,
especially
at TL 4.  If you don't have a solid object to focus on, you run a GREAT
BIG HUGE
chance of burning a hole through the fabric of the balloon. (You would
need to focus
the mirrors up...through the normal heating hole or bye-bye balloon)  I
don't think your
characters want to plummet several hundred feet.

However, if the balloon fabric is able to handle the necessary
temperature without
burning a hole in it, you could just focus on the balloon.

I hope your characters don't run into cloudy weather at an inopportune
moment ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:21:40 -0400
From: "David A. Bussey" <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Archologies

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> Makes for a better target for that near-C Virock!
>
"Captain,  I have our sights set on Mr. Bill"  ;-)

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<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Makes for a better target for that near-C Virock!</PRE>
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"Captain,&nbsp; I have our sights set on Mr. Bill"&nbsp; ;-)&nbsp;</HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:37:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: An "opportunity" in Pocket Empires

Anders wrote:
>Yes I am insinuating that this PE rule is blatantly wrong and calling it
>not a "bug" but a "feature" is laughable. The same was said about the
>equally weird infrastructure not depending on pop but on size rule!
>Please, admit your faults when they're pointed out instead of burying the
>head in the sand.

I thought that Andy was being sarcastic and parodying Microsoft, amongst
others. But I've been wrong before ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:35:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:Spacefaring nations and economics

Michael Barry wrote:

>Assuming Terra begins relying on mass drivers and/or beanstalk for
>economical transfers to orbit, and that the greatest wealth/opportunities
>are to be found in space rather than on beat-up, overexploited old Earth,
>then the economic and political power balance of the world would shift
>towards the equatorial nations.
>
>Another factor influencing this might be increased reliance on the oceans
>for foodstuffs, mining, living habitats and so on - shifting the balance
>further in favour of the hitherto underexploited Pacific, Indian and
>Southern Oceans.
>
>With massdrivers and beanstalks being built around the equator (say,
>Kilimanjaro, Solomon Islands, Java, Brazil, and so on) and the planet
>depending more heavily on space and the oceans for resources, we might see
>Europe and the USA thrown onto Hard Times (tm).

There's an interesting White Dwarf scenario called Tower Trouble which had
a look at a terran beanstalk. Interesting criminal based adventure which
could result in having some dire environmental consequences. The beanstalk
touched down in the US, IIRC. I would advocate that a beanstalk is included
on Terra in the supplement.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:24:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Harold wrote:


>>*Most in system ships will be Heplar, and J-Drive will initially be used in
>>system to reach outer worlds faster. In fact, Jump Drive should be given a
>>specific name after someone, to preserve a different PoV. "Jump-Drive" only
>>becomes the name popularised after it becomes common...
>
>   How do we know that 'jump drive' isn't the name the Terrans came up
>with?  If I remember the Traveller canon material correctly, there was
>no one person responsible for its development.

But a more proprietary name would add to the flavour... may be even a
company name?

>>* detail the Transnational corporations and friction between them and
>>governments.
>
>  Excellent idea.  The transnationals would almost constitute a shadow
>government in some cases, a la S:AAB.

Yes - SAAB was good on the ideas, and the effects weren't bad.. sort of a
soft 2300..! ;-)

>>*Reflect the arrogance within the culture assuming they are the most
>>advanced and alone in space..
>
>   I disagree here.  While that may be the propaganda used on the
>masses, the "powers that be" have known since the 2040s that the Vilani
>are out there.  This creates an atmosphere of in which the PCs are never
>quite sure if they know the whole truth.  S:AAB did an excellent job of
>presenting this kind of feel.

But the players are part of the masses with this arrogance? I'm not
disputing knowledge held with the 'PTB'.


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:50:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Academic

x	Academic Cluster	Int, Edu
	The Academic skill cluster includes Instruction and Research, and so
reflects the typical (and often opposed) duties of the scholar: to teach and
to research. A balanced scholar will have both academic sub-skills in equal
measure; many, however, concentrate in one area to the detriment of the
other.
	Academic is a default skill cluster because both Instruction and Research
are default skills.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

I am writing / re-writing / editing the skills chapter for T41. In order to
promote discussion of each individual skill by those who care about it, I am
posting each individual skill write-up.

I'm plowing through these in order. But if there is one you want to talk
about tell me.

Because skills are influenced greatly by Tasks, I can email the Task chapter
to anyone who requests it

Address your request to

FarFuture@aol.com

It would be helpful if you put "Task Chapter Request" in your subject.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:50:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft

	Aircraft Cascade	Dex, Int
	The Aircraft skill cascade indicates a general familiarity with air travel
and aircraft operation. Within the skill cascade, the individual is skilled
in a specific type of aircraft (Helicopter, Jet Plane, Prop Plane) and has a
somewhat lower skill in the other areas.
	Aircraft Identification. The character can identify aircraft in general
terms and often in specific terms based on education and experience.

	To identify an aircraft clearly visible at an airport.
	(Aircraft + Edu) < Difficult (2.5D)

	To identify an aircraft flying high overhead.
	(Aircraft + Edu) < Formidable (4D)

	Licensing. An individual is licensed by an appropriate authority if he or
she has skill-2 or greater. Worlds with Population 5 or greater and Law Level
5 or greater require a license before allowing operation of an aircraft.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:50:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Art

x	Art (Performance)	Dex, Int
	The ability to create works of art is an important talent which is highly
valued in most cultures. Skill in Art covers a familiarity with art works,
art styles, and art history. Skill in Art also indicates talent in the
creation of art.
	Art History. The individual knows the general history of fine art, including
the major artists of historical periods. Individual knowledge will vary with
the background of the character.

	To properly identify a major piece of art
	(Int + Art) < Easy (auto)

	Art Technique and Style. The individual is experienced in the use of art
materials and media.

	To create a work in a specified style and technique.
	(Dex + Art) < Easy (auto)

	Art Creation. The individual has talent in the field of fine art and can
produce works of art which have value to the consuming public.

	To create a Work of Art (1 month)
	(Art) < Staggering (4D)
	Special Case. 

	Art is one of five members of the Performance skill cluster (the others are
Acting, Dance, Music, and Writing).
	Art is a default skill.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Biology

	Biology (Physical Science)	Edu, Int
	Biology is a knowledge of living organisms, including identification,
species, physiological structure, evolution, habitat, dietary habits,
reproduction, and defense mechanisms.
	Knowledge. The individual knows the basic facts and theories of biology. He
or she can identify life forms by examination and the consultation of
reference works.

	To recognize and identify an organism from conversation.
	(Edu + Biology) < Average (2D)

	Practical Use. The character is able to conduct laboratory research in order
to determine facts and accumulate data about living organisms.

	To identify an organism from examination.
	(Edu + Biology) < Average (2D)
	This task may involve consulting reference works.

	Survey. The character understands the details which are required when
surveying unknown territory and can accumulated information which properly
meets the reporting requirements for survey organizations.
	Biology is one of five members of the Physical Sciences skill cluster (the
others are Chemistry, Geology, Medical, Physics).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Battle Dress

	Battle Dress	Dex
	Battle Dress skill encompasses the use of personal armor, including its
operation, maintenance, and repair. Personal armor ranges from simple helmets
and body armor ("bulletproof vests") to powered armor suits used by the
military at higher tech levels.
	Familiarity. The character is familiar with the various types of Battle
Dress, their capabilities, and their limitations.

	To identify a specific model of battle dress at a distance
	(Edu + Battle Dress) < Average (2D)

	Maintenance and Repair. The individual is experienced in the maintenance and
repair of battle dress equipment.. He or she can diagnose faults and repair
them.

	To diagnose a malfunction in Battle Dress (20 minutes)
	(Int + Battle Dress) < Average (2D)
	Uncertain (1D)

	The character could resolve this as a hasty task, take half the time, but
increase the Difficulty one level (to Difficult (2.5D) and the Uncertainty
one level.
	Operation. The individual can wear and use Battle Dress. He is trained in
properly assembling the components, connecting them, and operating them in
stressful situations such as combat or emergencies.

	Battle Dress can be substituted as Vac Suit at one level lower.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:50:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Archeology

	Archeology (Social Science)	Edu, Dex
	Archaeology covers the scholarly study of civilization. The skill
encompasses two distinct bodies of knowledge: a general knowledge of the
various paths civilization has taken, can take, or could have taken; and =
a
knowledge of how to investigate or study a civilization, whether it is
currently active or exists only as ruins or remnants.
	Paths. The general knowledge of different types of civilizations is
classroom taught. An individual with Archeology skill either knows or can
find in references basic information about general types of civilization.

	To identify the cultural background of an artifact.
	(Edu + Archeology) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Explorations. Archeology skill includes an ability to explore civilizati=
ons
(ancient or current) and to develop an understanding of the civilization=92=
s
dynamics from the clues and pieces found.

	To recognize a geographical feature as a ruin.
	(Edu + Archeology) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Archeology is one of six members of the Social Sciences skill cluster (t=
he
others are History, Linguistics, Philosophy, Psionicology, Psychology).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:51:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Administration

	Administration (Bureaucracy)	Int, Edu
	Administration skill reflects expertise in activities within organizations
(alternative names for the skill include Paperwork or Red Tape).
Organizations, although staffed by people, are run by policies and rules;
staff is directed to use those rules when taking action or making decisions.
When an organization is totally subordinate to those rules, then it becomes
clogged in paperwork or red tape.
	Administration reflects an understanding of the problems organizations (and
organization staff) face, and an ability to work within the existing
structure. A character with Administration understands how to talk to clerks
and how to convince them that what they are doing fits the rules they work
under.

	To obtain a permit from the Central Permit Office.
	(Int + Administration) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Administration is one of two members of the Bureaucracy skill cluster (the
other is Leadership).
	Admin, Carousing, Liaison, Diplomacy, and Streetwise are related skills.
Carousing is the skill of meeting people and enjoying their company. Admin is
the skill of working within an organization. Liaison is the skill of
coordinating relationships between different cultures or organizations.
Diplomacy is the formal skill of negotiation between governments. Streetwise
is the skill of dealing with local subcultures without alienating them.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:51:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Acting

x	Acting (Performance)	Int, Edu
	Acting is a skill in the dramatic arts, including an ability to adopt a
personality or role, to convince an audience, and to convey a wide range of
emotion while involved in the part.
	Characters with Acting have learned to conceal their true selves, their
motives, and their emotions while manipulating an audience into believing
whatever persona or emotion they are portraying.
	Playing Roles: Acting allows an individual to assume a role and to convince
others of the validity or truth of that role.

	To portray a part in a play.
	(Edu + Acting) < Difficult (2.5D)
	A true actor is always striving for Spectacular Success, 
	(and dreads Spectacular Failure).

	Mimicry: Acting allows a character to mimic or imitate personality traits
with enough realism that they are convincing to the ordinary observer.

	To mimic the mannerisms of a well-known person
	(Edu + Acting) < Difficult (2.5D)
	It is easier to mimic a well-known figure because the audience more easily
recognizes the specific mannerisms

	Deception: Acting allows a person to deceive others by concealing true
emotions and projecting false (but appropriate) ones. Acting allows
successful lying (both in words and in actions).

	To impersonate someone.
	(Edu + Acting) < Difficult (2.5D)
	This task addresses the impersonation itself. Others should address proper
papers, disguise, or knowledge.

	Acting is a default skill.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Armorer

	Armorer (Soldier)	Dex, Int
	Armorer skill is an expertise in the care of and repair of weaponry. The
individual can operate, maintain, and repair military and civilian weapon=
s.
This expertise extends to small arms (hand weapons), heavy weapons,
artillery, and ship=92s weapons. Weapons are made to be maintained and
repaired; an armorer=92s experience and background includes a working kno=
wledge
of currently available weapons, a historical knowledge of other weapons, =
and
an ability to find references which help in handling otherwise unknown
weapons.
	Identification. An Armorer can identify weapons after an examination of =
the
weapon itself or of images of it.

	To identify an unknown weapon.
	(Int + Armorer) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Difficulty of this task will vary by specific weapon and whether images =
or
the weapon itself is available.

	Maintenance. An Armorer is responsible for preventative maintenance of
weaponry, carefully disassembling the equipment, cleaning it, replacing w=
orn
parts, and then reassembling it.

	To perform preventative maintenance on a weapon.
	(Dex + Armorer) < Average (2D)
	Uncertain (1D). This task assumes proper tools and manuals are available.

	Repair. An Armorer is responsible for repair of weaponry in a unit or
organization, or on a ship.

	To repair a weapon which has malfunctioned.
	(Int + Armorer) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Uncertain (1D). This task assumes proper tools and manuals are available.

	Depending on the circumstances, this task may have other levels of
difficulty or uncertainty.
	Armorer is one of five members of the Soldier skill cluster (the others =
are
Ground Craft, Camouflage, Demolitions, Heavy Weapons, Tactics).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:51:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Blade Combat

	Blade Combat Cascade	Dex, Str, End
		The Blade Combat skill cascade indicates a familiarity with the use of
edged weapons: Knife (which includes all short bladed weapons), and Sword
(which includes all long bladed weapons). It is the knowledge of close-in
armed fighting, and the individual knows how to handle swords and knives in
combat situations. Within the skill cascade, the individual is skilled in a
specific type of blade weapon, and has a somewhat lower skill in the other
weapons.
	Blade Combat can be one of the most important skills an interstellar
traveller learns. The skill serves well on primitive worlds, where native
life forms tend to bring combat up close and personal. It is also of use on
civilized worlds, where firearms are often prohibited. When combat occurs
within a starship (where firearms might breach the hull or destroy delicate
electronics), Blade Combat is the accepted form of fighting.
	Knife. Knife skill involves the use of short blade weapons: dagger, bowies,
hunting knives, bayonets, stilettos, and trench knives.
	Sword. Sword skill involves the use of long blade weapons: swords, sabers,
and cutlasses.
	Cutlass. The Marines specifically train in the use of their organizational
weapon: the cutlass. A Marine prefers to state his or her skill as Cutlass.
Sword and Cutlass are identical skills.
	Fencing. Fencing is a special skill in the specialized field of dueling
using blades. Fencing is not included in the Blade Weapon skill cascade. A
character with Sword skill can duel a fencer, but in social situations
involving duels, the fencer will look more elegant of the two (even if the
non-fencer wins the duel, he may find himself the object of scorn by
observers of higher social status).
	Blade Combat is a default skill cluster because Knife and Sword are both
default skills.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:50:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft A Athletics

	Artillery (Military)	Int, Str
	Artillery skill encompasses knowledge of the use of large projectile
weapons.
	Fire Control. Artillery allows the character to calculate proper information
for aiming and directing artillery weapons.

	To properly calculate fire control for artillery.
	(Int + Artillery) < Easy (auto)

	Operation. Artillery allows a character to physically operate artillery
weapons.

	To physically operate an artillery weapon.
	(Int + Artillery) < Easy (auto)

	Artillery involves the use of large projectile weapons, which typically are
not man-portable; Heavy Weapons differ in that they typically are
man-portable.
	Artillery is one of three members of the Military skill cluster (the others
are Combat Engineering and Strategy).

	Astrogation (Naval)	Edu, End
	Astrogation skill allows a character to compute accurate courses for
interplanetary and interstellar travel. The astrogator is counted on to plot
the course and to ensure that correct information is made available to the
pilot and crew as they need it. In order to do this, he has been trained in
the use of astrogation computer programs and the interpretation of long-range
data provided by the ship's detection system.

	To calculate an interstellar jump.
	(Edu + Astrogation) < Easy (auto)

	To manually confirm interstellar jump calculations.
	(End + Astrogation) < Formidable (3D)
	Uncertain (1D). This task takes 1 day per parsec.

	Astrogration is distinct from Navigation. Astrogation is space-based and
involves charting courses for interplanetary and interstellar craft; it is a
tedious and laborious undertaking, even when aided by computers and sensors.
Navigation is world-based, and involves understanding world-survey and
sky-based cues.
	Astrogation can serve as Navigation. A character with Astrogation can use it
in lieu of Navigation at two skill levels lower (Navigation, on the other
hand cannot be used as Astrogation).
	Astrogation is one of four members of the Naval skill cluster (the others
are Ship Tactics, Engineering, and Fleet Tactics).

x	Athletics	Dex, End
	Athletics skill allows a character to participate in extensive or vigorous
physical activity.
	Physical Conditioning. Athletics includes a knowledge of physical training
and conditioning. The individual knows the best way to use physical
characteristics in order to maximize results, and to minimize the potential
for injury. The individual can maintain his physical characteristics in peak
condition, and is better able to use them in vigorous or stressful
situations.

	To vault a wall
	(Dex + Athletics) < Average (2D)
	
	Because Athletics is a default skill, anyone could attempt this task. For
two characters Dexterity-8, the chance to succeed for the unskilled character
would be 17%; the chance for the character with Athletics-1 would be 83%.
	Organized Sports. Athletics includes a familiarity with organized sports,
including the techniques of team management and coaching to win. The
individual knows the rules and details of most popular sports. 
	Athletics is a default skill.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:58:41 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

At 14:49 14/08/97 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>I am writing / re-writing / editing the skills chapter for T41. In order to
>promote discussion of each individual skill by those who care about it, I am
>posting each individual skill write-up.
>
>I'm plowing through these in order. But if there is one you want to talk
>about tell me.
>
	I think it would be nice to have a skill for swimming. Also, one for
jumping could be good, although I think athletics currently covers this.
But I think most fairly fit people are far more capable of jumping than
doing athletics!

	Also, how about breaking some of the survival skills down a bit? Or is
this a bad idea? Some could be fishing, build shelter, locate water,
recognise edible food from the surrounding flora and fauna, etc.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:06:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules:

A thought on thruster plates... do they have to be on the outside of the
ship? IIRC, the SoM describes a ship with the plates at the front. Could
you do some directional stealthinging by setting the plates in a well at
the centre of the ship... sort of <Bad ascii picture follows>

===========================================
=                                                                        =
=                                  =======================
=                                  T
=                                  T     Well...
=                                  T
=                                  =======================
=                                                                        =
===========================================

You could try and get them closer to the centre of mass (and increase the
agility?) in addition to limiting the direction that the drive glow is seen
from.

<Ducks into cover...>

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:13:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:T41 Chargen

Marc wrote:

>I have really enjoyed working on T41 Chargen, and as it nears completion, I
>want to point out the elements that I think are important/fun/interesting.

It's been interesting to watch/participate in..

>Revised Homeworld/Birthworld Determination.
Nice.
>Character Cards.
OK but personally prefer A4...
>Education advancement to specific levels (ie, College graduate to Edu 7).
Starts to sort out the Edu problem, and emphasises what edu is.
>The Technical Institute (thanks Volker!)
>Impediments to noble advancement beyond C.
>Impediments to Military commissioned rank advancement beyond O6.
>The Masquerade for Rogues.
>Rewards and Consequences for Rogues.
>Assumed Identities for Agents.
>Current university association for Scholars (ie The University of Na Ni Po)
>Birthdate determination
>Official Status for Nobles
>Detached Duty for Scouts
>Reintroduction of Cutlasses for Scouts
;-)

>Any comments (especially from those of you who have been reviewing T41
>Chargen)?

Did scouts get JoT?
I like the quick character gen system - excellent for a ref in a hurry.
Looking forward to the next part!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1688
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Thursday, August 14 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1689



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...
Mesoamerican casualty rates
J: Uh-oh :)
M21 SFN
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: PE HAS MILLIONS OF FAULTS IN IT
FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?
Re: E21 Countries, revision 2
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Re: Spacefaring nations and economics
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules:
Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft
Vilani and the common cold
Re: M: E21
T41 Skills Draft B Bow Combat
Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg ( was Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level )
Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:30:53 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

>On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Michael Barry wrote:
>
>> Excuse ignorance, but what the #@%& is a 'Wendelstein'? And what use is a
>> Tokamak as a power generator if it consumes 10-100 times more energy than
>> it generates?
>
>	First, the Wendelstein is a 'stellarator' type fusion test
>reactor, which uses external magnetic coils to compress and contain the
>plasma in a toroidal configuration. A Tokomak uses the plasma itself to
>compress and contain itself by running large currents through the plasma
>generating the requisite magnetic fields.

This seems to imply that Tokamaks do not use magnetic confinement, they do.
Ohmic heating is the process of heating  the plasma by running a current
through it.  The current also produces a "poloidal field" (magnetic field
running along the axis of the plasma; i.e. through the center of the
'doughnut' or torus.  Not being a science type, I'll relate the text of one
of our PR works ;

"In the stellerator, the role of the current in the plasma is replaced by
external magnetic coils, which may make steady state operation easier."

So, the stellarator (I have not encountered the term "Wendelstein") heats
by magnetism.

The Stellarator was named, incidentially, for the character in "Streetcar
Named Desire"("Stella!").  [just kidding]

>
>	In theory, a Tokomak is capable of self sustaining fusion reaction
>with fewer parts to the reactor, and thus would be more reliable. Alas, we
>have found that, with fusion, the leap twixt theory and practice has been
>a long hard one. Current designs do take more energy to run than they
>produce. But, once started, you can generate larger and larger magnetic
>fields by feeding the current the thing is producing back into itself,
>thus, a self sustaining tokomak will be more stable than one that isn't
>self sustaining.

No tokamak, as far as I know, produces *any* electricity at all.  They are
all experimental devices which study (for the moment) *Plasma* behavior and
characteristics.  This will be very important for future experimental and
production fusion reactors.  Although possibilities for harnessing the heat
and other energies emitted are explored and tested, no tokamak is really
being harnessed for energy output.  In fact, you should see our electricity
bills! (which comes to my job; paying the bills!).  If the fusion reaction
can be made to be self-sustaining, the magical 'breakpoint' will be reached
where energy output exceeds energy input.  In the community, it is hoped
that the ITER (International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor) will reach
this point (after several further years of experimentation).  Of course, if
the U.S. Congress decides its silly to build a fusion reactor in another
country they may take away funding for the project (many countries are
contributing to the project, including Japan).

>
>However, I'm ignorant of all but the most basic details of current fusion
>research, and so cannot begin to claim thatI know that one is inherently
>better than the other.
>

Experts in the field still can't say conclusively that one shape is better
than onother.  ITER will, however, be a Tokamak, and that is the best
studied shape.  All the shapes represent tradeoffs of one kind or another,
so it may be that they are all realtively likely to be the "right" shape
for a fusion reactor.

[snip]
>Controlling the plasma is on the order of balancing a broomstick on your
>fingertip...while riding in the back seat of an F-14 during a dogfight.

That's pretty good, except that you have a massive computer and a $11
million grant to try for it, which will just about pay for the plane.

Fortunately we only have to maintain stable plasmas at temperature for 3-4
seconds at a time.

Check out my center's web page (soon to contain my own!) for more Fusion
information and pictures at;

http://www.pfc.mit.edu

FYI I work for the Alcator C-Mod project as the Fiscal Officer.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
[***note email address change***]
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:40:37 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Mesoamerican casualty rates

Believe it or not, the casualty rate was as high as 90% in some areas. And
they are from the same planet! The crowding in the mexica empire region was
a disease waiting to happen, but the poor devils never domesticated large
herbivores (ie cows and pigs). They got the Europeans' diseases instead, and
with little or no resistance, died in droves. The Incas suffered less in
terms of disease, due in part to their cooler climate and higher altitude,
but also due to  the fact that they had some similiar diseases from Llamas
and Alpacas. They had just as many people get sick but much lower death
rates.

Most moooodern (sorry, "O" key stuck, not a pun, but I left it anyway) 
diseases are modifications of ones that plague our domestic herbivores and 
that have adapted to live in us. The reason most major diseases begin in
Southern China and India is due to the climate (hot and wet), crowding and
the presence of phenomenal numbers of large, domestic herbivores (we create
a filthy disease ridden environment by not allowing them to move at will, by
the sheer mass of fecal matter large herbivores produce). Some other areas
of the world are prime disaster spots waiting to happen (like the Senegal to
Cameroon coast, US southern coast) and only eternal vigilance by the CDC
gives us any chance whatsoever. We know what we are looking for. The Vilani
would not. 

On the other hand, the Vilani might be carriers of nasty diseases too! They
had domestic animals, but they may be non-compatible with human genetics
(much like humans cannot get certain animal diseases and vice versa)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:05:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: J: Uh-oh :)

>a distinct military advantage to have. Arranging a garbage strike two
>weeks in advance of an attack will accomplish the same thing, in a highly
>populated area.
>
>(Spoken as a survivor of the Great New York Garbage Strike sometime in the
>80's...there were piles of garbage 15-20 ft high in places...made getting
>around the city _interesting_ to say the least. We had the biggest %#$@
>rats for a while after that...)

  Hmm, are you saying that those of us in Vancouver should
prepare to evacuate?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:52:44 -0400
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: M21 SFN

Rob spaketh nations that have spacefaring ability

Argentina-maybe
Australia-in cooperation, maybe
Brazil-good chance, but pretty pitiful
China-fair chance, but maybe only near orbit
Egypt-you have got to be kidding
Europe-100%
India-slight chance, higher in a cooperative effort
Indonesia-in cooperation with China, Japan or India, maybe, no chance on own
Japan-very good
Korea-on their own, no. with Japan, good chance
Nigeria-you ARE kidding, aren't you
Philippines-good cooperator with Japan, Indonesia
Russia-they will be back, 100%
US-likely, unless congress cannot sell it to their districts (see PM
Chretien's comments at NATO conference)
Zaire-okay, you defintely are kidding

How about, Mexico? In coop with Canada and US (NAFTA in Space)
Canada-very likely, either with Europe, Japan or USA
Chile-good cooperator nation, with NAFTA

How about PanAmerican Free Trade Agreement:
Canada, USA, Mexico, Venezuela, Chile, Argentina

For the anti-westerners out there (you know who you are)
For the forseeable future, the Earth will very likely be western dominated,
insomuch as the most technologically capable natioons are all in that block.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:20:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

Yes you can use focused sunlight to cook meals. However, most solar
cookers I have seen use the greenhouse priciple to heat the interior, a
clear glass top to admit the light and black interior to absorb the
sunlight and re-radiate it as heat.

The problem with doing this for a HA balloon, is that while the efficiency
of this device is reasonably good, the practical numbers of BTU's you need
to dump into a balloon envelope, particularly a TL-3 one, is far too high
to get off of small focussed pmirrors. You would need a BIG mirror to do
this. Watch a RL HA balloon sometime...that's a honking _big_ propane
burner they're firing up to keep it flying. to lift four people and their
stuff, along with your fuel supply and gondola requires a big evelope, and
that's a LOT of air to heat up.

Now if your clever players want to REALLY play with fire let your academic
one 'remember' how much lift you get from hydrogen ;-> 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:14:04 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: PE HAS MILLIONS OF FAULTS IN IT

>>Yes I am insinuating that this PE rule is blatantly wrong and calling it
>>not a "bug" but a "feature" is laughable...
>
>Clearly I have to refrain from using sarcasm in my posts. Being a worker at
>a large (telecommunications) corporation, and an avid reader of Dilbert
>cartoons, renaming "bugs" as "opportunities" is an accepted way of life.
>Obviously my post was meant to indicate that the transport "bug" was an
>accepted fault of the system, but that (as per usual on the TML) someone
>would come up with an acceptable fix. Clearly the message didn't get
>interpreted that way.
>
>The entire PE work was completed to a ridiculously short ("challenging")
>development and play-testing time. PE has, to my knowledge, received a much
>more positive reaction than most of the preceding T4 products.

Hi Andy,
I think your post points out the "feature" <g> of the TML to scream loud
and long about products, without really understanding the point of why
it does it. The above paragraph about "ridiculously short" play-testing
times and development cycles pretty much sums up the "opportunities"
people are beginning to feel once again from IG. It gives us the *impres-
sion* that IG feels it can shovel any half-cooked shit our way in the 
interest of staying "on schedule" and as long as they slap T4 somewhere
on the cover we'll eat it up and not notice. That was one of their major
"challenges" in the first, Starships, Era of IG, and something that they
repeatedly stated they were going to fix, Quality Control. The books have
gotten an order of magnitude better than Starships (with the dismal excep-
tion of First Survey), and yet they are still plagued by very blatant problems
like the <-> problem in FFS2. The List asks incredulously "Didn't anyone
playtest or proofread this thing before it was printed?" and we *consistently*
get back the answer "We were under such a tight deadline and so rushed
in order to meet a schedule...." This is not a slam against you 
and the other authors; given the circumstances y'all have done an incred-
ible job and it is truly astounding that things work as well as they do. It's
just when things like *obvious* typos (DISCLAIMER: I have not yet seen
FFS2, but from the description on the list I think I can safely say that 
equations replacing multiplication symbols with "<->" is an *obvious*
typo to anyone who tries to use the damn thing ONCE before it gets 
printed.) and missing tables get explained away with "So rushed trying to
get it out by such-and-such" that the List screams enough is enough and is
just about ready to tell IG what they can do with their sacred schedule.
With the constantly rewriting of past history that is going on in the T4
books, I sometimes get the feeling that the only thing IG feels is Canon
is the Blessed Release Schedule.

Speaking of past history revisionism, did whoever it was who asked MM
about whether the "canon typos" (David? Sam?) ever get back an answer?

P.S. I apologize for the grumpy tone of the above message, but in defense
would like to point out that I got to run Traveller for my group last night
for the first time in literally *months* and that's put me in a great mood, so
I'm not nearly as grumpy as I would be <g>

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:22:02 -0700
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?

I haven't seen anything on the digest about this product since it's been
released, so here's my two cents worth....

I went down yesterday to take a look at it, & spent about five minutes
leafing through it -- not a comprehensive overview, but long enough to
determine that (like the original) I'd never make heads nor tails of it.
That isn't what annoyed me. What annoyed me was that I was looking
specifically at the missile-building section... I LOVE missiles, and the
bigger & more of them the better; they're cheap and hard-hitting and
leave picturesque corkscrew contrails all over the place when you shoot
a whole batch of 'em.... nobody who was a member of the Anime Junkie
Underground in the early-mid 1980's could help but love missile
launchers....

....and I saw that you have to (a) buy enough fuel to get the missile to
the target, as opposed to buying a Generic Missile Booster with perhaps
the cost and bulk determined by TL, and that (b) this is expressed in
G-hours.

Now this presumes (unless I'm way off base) that your ships -- the
targets you are trying to hit -- ALSO have their thrust expressed in
G-hours.... but they aren't (they are expressed, of course, in terms of
ACCELERATION, from 1-6 G's). There were plenty of examples of things
that aren't addressed in the main rule system (that is just the one I
happen to recall).... just as there was in the SSDS, where there were
row upon row of abstract figures and values that STILL haven't been
explained or addressed (light-seconds, having to convert damage from
obsolete TNE measures to T4, etc., with zero explanation of what these
numbers meant, where they came from, or were intended to be used for).

I was willing to give it a fair shot -- it is certainly much better
illustrated and laid out than any of its predecessors, which pleased me
since most all the T4 books look as though they were laid out by a
student intern -- but my overwhelming initial impression was that the
content has nothing to do with T4 at all. It looks as though it was
simply a cleaned-up and improved version of the old FF&S, and makes
numerous assumptions tha the reader is familiar with & conversant with
the TNE rules set -- now obsolete and out of print for several years. 

In other words, it looks as though it were produced Of, By, and For the
Traveller Mailing List, and is about as useful to anybody NOT being a
math whiz and and NOT having all the old books memorized and NOT having
been along for the ride for the past ten-fifteen-odd years as teats on a
boar hog. What IS a G-hour? WHERE is this mentioned in the T4 rulebook?
HOW does one build a QSDS or even SSDS ship and then build an FF&S2
missile to shoot at it? How, for Christ's sake, do you determine who
hits what?

I am now convinced that with such a bizarre, retrograde design backbone
for their game system -- hardware design being central to the hard-SF
genre -- that IG will falter and die off within two or three years.
Which is a drastic assumption to make after five minutes of skimming
through one book, and I openly welcome testimony to the contrary. I rode
the bus for half an hour to Gamescape because I was willing to look at
it and be convinced, and I still am. If you can convince me that it
ain't that bad and is relevant to existing material, then I will try to
swallow all those formulae. For example: is there an updated combat
system in FF&S2 that makes use of G-hours, and moreover will convert
existing ship designs whose thrust is expressed in G's of acceleration
to G-hour-stats... and I skimmed over it? Let's see some reviews &
feedback, please.

In the meantime, I'd encourage anybody putting together an Excel
spreadsheet for FF&S2 to limit themselves to creating one spreadsheet
for each component type, instead of super-gigantic, all-encompassing
monsters to design a whole ship by. If you can put something together to
let mere mortals like myself create their own spinal mount or capital
missile launcher or sensor suite, then have a column at the bottom
expressing the result in T4 stats so we can plug it into our SSDS/QSDS
creations, that would be the greatest of services to the T4 gaming
community at large. If IG has two active brain cells to rub together at
this point, they'll put them on a CD-ROM and start bundling them with
the rulebook.... and eliminate all that pointless, unexplained crap
about 'microseconds' and 'G-hours.'

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:11:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: E21 Countries, revision 2

In a message dated 97-08-14 15:47:25 EDT, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

<< 
 Player		Popul		Space Infrastructure (1-F)
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 Argentina	?		3
 Australia	?		1
 Brazil		?		2
 China		1.5B		8
 Egypt		?		?
 Europe		1B		6
 India		2B		4
 Indonesia	800M		3
 Japan		150M		4
 Korea		150M		4
 Nigeria		200M		?
 Philippines	?		?
 Russia		?		5
 US		400M		6
 Zaire		?		?
  >>

I would modify the list thusly:

Player		Popul		Space Infrastructure (1-A)
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 Argentina	100M		2
 Brazil		200M		5
 China		1.25B		9
 Egypt		90M		1
 Europe		1B		      9
 India		1.6B		3
Indo/Malay	400M		6
 Japan		150M		8
 Korea		150M		4
 Nigeria		200M		2
 Philippines	 90M		1
 Russia		 300M		9
 US/Can/Mex  450M	A
Congo   	125M		2

COngo deserves a rating of at least 2 due to its immense resource base.
 Indo/Malay alliance to include: Papua New Guinea and Singapore(?).

I will wirte up an individual post as soon as time permits explaning
political/geographical alliances and timelines(?).

Scott Quigg XatoKuom@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:14:25 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

>At 14:49 14/08/97 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>>I'm plowing through these in order. But if there is one you want to talk
>>about tell me.
>>

>Bruce E J Lewis wrote:
>	I think it would be nice to have a skill for swimming. Also, one for
>jumping could be good, although I think athletics currently covers this.
>But I think most fairly fit people are far more capable of jumping than
>doing athletics!
>
>	Also, how about breaking some of the survival skills down a bit? Or is
>this a bad idea? Some could be fishing, build shelter, locate water,
>recognise edible food from the surrounding flora and fauna, etc.

I think I'm in the minimalist camp. I'd prefer to have more "generic"
skills, instead of a large number of definitive skills. The biggest thing
I've had a hard time with in terms of "skills" is that undefinable quality
that lets you scan the surroundings for a hint of danger or something out
of place.

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:33:23 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Spacefaring nations and economics

The beanstalk touched down in the US, IIRC.ent.
> 

Nope- Equador on the Equator.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:39:30 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules:

That drive glow is radiation.  Imagine putting a jet engine inside your
ship.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:37:46 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft

Sounds good to me.  Except fixed wing pilots CANNOT fly helicopters
without specific training.  Concepts are similar but controls are 
different.

Helo pilots catch on very quickly to fixed wing ops, as they usually
start in fixed wing in the USAF.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 16:52:34 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Vilani and the common cold

Phil, 

I respectfully disagree with you.  The difference is the Vilani are 300,000
years removed from Terran organisms. They won't have developed *any* kind
of immunities to earthly diseases.  The infection rate would be *much*
higher than in the a general population here (even an isolated one) and the
effects on those infected would be much worse. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 16:41:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M: E21

On 08/14/97 at 10:53 AM,  Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com> said:

>  Many really big companies are less well known than the names of their
>  subsidiaries or brands.  Plus geography plays a part.  Unilever may be 
>  better known among Europeans, whereas its rival (Procter & Gamble) is
>  better known among Americans.  

Oh, I don't know, Unilever is pretty well known over here.  How about
Cebi-Gegi?  Sandoz?  Novartis? (Ok, that's a trick question. ;-)  Have
people outside NA heard of Merck, Lucent, or Schulmberge (sp)?  And just
*how* do you pronounce Bayer?  ;-> Is it pronounced bA-er, bE-er or bI-er

>  (Notice how I avoided the term Yanks - see how culturally educational this >  list is!)

Yes, and I appreciate it. ;->
     
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:54:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Bow Combat

x	Bow Combat	Dex
	Bow Combat is a knowledge of the principles and processes of archery.
Primitives use Bow Combat for hunting; some ship crew study Bow Combat
because it has less chance of breaching the hull. Proper use of a bow weapon
involves shooting the arrow to the proper range (not short and not over) and
properly aimed.
	Bow Combat includes the ability to use both the Longbow and the Crossbow.

	Familiarity. The individual is familiar with the fundamental principles and
techniques of Archery.

	To identify a specific bow weapon.
	(Int + Bow Cbt) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Range. The individual can shoot an arrow with sufficient strength to reach
the target.

	To shoot an arrow to the range of the target (Short)
	(Str + Bow Cbt) < Average (2D)

	To shoot an arrow to the range of the target (Medium)
	(Str + Bow Cbt) < Difficult (2.5D)

	To shoot an arrow to the range of the target (Long)
	(Str + Bow Cbt) < Formidable (3D)

	To shoot an arrow to the range of the target (Crossbow)
	(Dex + Bow Cbt) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Accuracy. The individual can use a bow to hit an object at a reasonable
distance a reasonable percentage of the time. If the arrow reaches the
appropriate range, then the shooter determines if the target is hit.

	To hit a person sized target.
	(Dex + Bow Cbt) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Increase Difficulty one level if target is moving.
	Increase Difficulty one level if target is half size.

	Bow Combat is a default skill.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:55:23 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg ( was Re: Terran vs. Vilani Tech Level )

At 10:03 AM 8/14/97 +0000, Andy Brick wrote:
><snip>
>
>Nevertheless, Jumpspace is a canonical "fact".  I guess it boils down to
>what 
>you personally accept as canon and what you do not ... and how you
>interpret what you do accept ...
>
><snip>
>
>Heisenberg stated that you could not know _everything_ about a particle
>or group of particles without changing their properties in some manner. 
>However, this is unimportant as regards Stutterwarp. Consider a balloon -
>I can move the balloon and all of the air inside it without any knowledge 
>of the properties of the various particles it envelops. In other words, I 
>can generate a field that affects a system of particles without needing
>to know much if anything about that system. Think of magnetically 
>confined plasma as another example of a "dumb" field that touches
>every atom within its domain without violating Heisenberg. If I move the
>field, I move the plasma. Now, while I agree that 
>the "Heisenberg compensators" in ST are VERY suspect scientifically,
>I see no problem with a "dumb" field moving everything along with itself.
>It's no more than a container.
>
>Andy Brick
>exeus@compuserve.com
>http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/
>

True; Jump "space" is canonical "fact"; interpration thereof is subject to
each instantitation of the game by a group. That I interpret the Jump effect
to twist off a tiny pocket of space time from the rest of universe and
reconnect it at a different location rather than assert that this thing
called Jump Space exists separate and distinct from normal space time is my
interpretation; one that I find fits several pieces of Traveller together
nicely: Jump, Gravitics & Thruster plates; plus the borrow from 2300,
Stutter Warp.

A magnetically confined plasma is a good analogy to what I view Jump effect
to like. Electron tunnelling, however, is a particle effect, not an atom
level effect. If you want to use a particle effect to move a ship, you would
have to induce all of the particles to co ordinate the same effect in the
same direction at the same time. Our old friend Heisenberg is back. I have
not heard of proton, neutron or atom tunnelling. A magnetic bottle, like a
gravitational bottle, bounds a space, and effects all objects within that
space equally. The same as I view the effect of an active Jump Drive. So the
analogy for Stutter Warp is electron tunnelling, the implementation is
different. Like flying; birds fly, 747s fly (generally), implementation is
vastly different.

This gives me a comfortable feel in explaining how Jump works; others may be
able to percieve the standalone, existant space concept better. In fact, the
recent thread on Jump Space being an Ancient Artifact fits rather well with
my idea of Jump Effect being derived from gravity's ability to create pocket
universes. This Ancient Artifact Jump Space would be various Pocket
Universes, like the one in Secret of the Ancients, created to shorten
distance between two points in real space. Lhyd fuel expended is actually to
feed the power system maintaing the pocket universe the ship traversing, the
different Jump distances, 1 thru 6,  represent progressively smaller pocket
universes. The 2d maps are due to the fact that actual position in real
space has no relationship to where the system intersects the pocket
universe. Gives Han Solo's claim 'to having made the Kessel run in less than
6 parsecs' a different meaning: he found a pocket universe path to Kessel
that was shorter that the normal 6 parsec path.

I haven't chucked out the published history of Traveller; just giving it my
own reading that makes it easier for me to work with.

Garry





 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 18:23:50 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

On 08/15/97 at 12:22 AM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
<a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:

>I'd love to see it. My history is fundimentally influenced by my "age of
>sail" bias (I look at Traveller and see parallels to my favorite
>historical era).

Actually, my version is heavily influenced by an "age of sail" bias too,
although, "colonial age" may be more apropos.  ;-> 

I picture things more like:  

Vilani=Aztec Empire/Imperial China  and  Solomani=Europeans

Anyway, here's my version of the Interstellar War era...all opinion and
(you know me) nothing to do with the "c" word.  ;->

Terrans weren't a Confederation until 30 years after contact with the
Vilani.  During the first war and for 20+ years after it ended it was
individual nations and corporations that were dealing with the Vilani. Even
after the Confederation formed, we don't know just how much control it had
over the actions of it's constituent members...I suggest it had very
little, at least for the first 40 to 50 years.

During this First Colonial Period, the subsector and eventually the entire
sector is colonized by national and corporate Terran groups.  The fact that
the Vilani are already there matters as little as the fact that the
Americans, Africa, India and China were already occupied when the Europeans
arrived.  Certainly, the Vilani are more equally matched with the Terran
colonizers, but disease and a much more dynamic culture (socially,
economically, and technically) gives the Terrans a big advantage.  The
first few "Interstellar Wars" are more sporatic skirmishes between Terran
National forces and local Vilani forces than set-to wars.

The second half of the period begins when the Vilani Sector Governor
finally decides to "pacify" his new Terran subjects, now occupying huge
sections of the sector.  The Terrans resist, call on their home
countries/corporations for support, and while that always worked before it
doesn't work too well now with entire Vilani fleet elements being committed
for the first time.  The colonies' parents appeal to the Confederation and
for the first time the whole of the Solomani population is mobilized
against the Vilani.

You wouldn't think the Solomani would be a match for the 10,000 worlds of
the Vilani, but once the Terran fleets began to move they didn't stop until
they had sweep across the entire Imperium.  How they were able to do it has
been debated ever since, but in large part it was because the Ziru Sirka
was an empty shell.  The Vilani had never run into a race with fleets of
warships.  They had expanded across charted space for thousands of years
virtually unopposed.  They simply didn't have the huge fleets they *could*
have built, they had never really needed them.

There were a few "pacification" fleets scattered throughout the Imperium to
keep the various minor races under control.  There were also a few "mobile"
fleets to deal with external threats, but they were almost all tied down
keeping the Vargr under control on another front entirely. There simply
wasn't anything to shift to the Terran front, and once the Terran fleets
jumped past the Vilani forces near their border they ran free all the way
across the Ziru Sirka.

Vilani civilization was founded on acceptance of authority and when a
sector Governor surrendered, the entire sector more or less surrendered at
the same time.  The minor races didn't have a reason to support the Vilani,
and had never been allowed to create strong forces anyway, so they just
went along with the general trend.  Within a few years the entire Ziru
Sirka had simply surrendered to the Terrans and the Solomani were in
charge.  The *story* is that the Ziru Sirka was rotten, but that's not
really true, it just wasn't organized to defend against an opponent with
fleets of warships, and it never understood what it was facing until it was
too late to do anything about it...except surrender and avoid the
destruction of their planets.

It turns out that the Solomani couldn't *govern* the entire Imperium, but
that's another story.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1689
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1690



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1683
Re: J: Uh-oh :)
Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...
Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft
Psionic Institute's Art
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1688
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Re: M: E21
Re: Femicide
E21 Scenario
A brief explanation
Re: RoM/Terran TL
Re: RoM/Terran TL
E21
Re: M: E21
T4 _is_ Traveller (was Re: Is T4 Traveller?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:21:33 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1683

At 10:44 AM 8/14/97 +0000, Phil McGregor wrote:
><snip>
>So, we drop the Flu on a typical high-tech Vilani world with 2 Billion
>people and kill 20 million. A public health disaster, but not one
>likely to cause societal breakdown!
>
><snip>
>
>Phil
>-----------------------------------------
>Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
>Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
>Co-Author, Space Opera (FGU)
>Author, Standard Role Playing (PGD)
>

What about morale? Aids certainly as made major changes in society; The
Black Plague panicked people to abandon towns and cities, shut down
businesses and industries. Everything I have see on Vilani Culture to date
indicates that they do not react well to sudden changes or surprises. 

Garry

  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:19:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: J: Uh-oh :)

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >a distinct military advantage to have. Arranging a garbage strike two
> >weeks in advance of an attack will accomplish the same thing, in a highly
> >populated area.
> >
> >(Spoken as a survivor of the Great New York Garbage Strike sometime in the
> >80's...there were piles of garbage 15-20 ft high in places...made getting
> >around the city _interesting_ to say the least. We had the biggest %#$@
> >rats for a while after that...)
> 
>   Hmm, are you saying that those of us in Vancouver should
> prepare to evacuate?

	Well, I think you're a bit cooler than NYC in August, but man, I'd
just give the garbage workers what they want... it can get awfully smelly
in a humid environment like Vancouver..and it's astonishing how much
garbage is generated daily in large urban areas.

	But my point was if you were going to invade, a time of urban
upheaval is the time to do it. Particularly if the national guard is busy
picking up, which is what they ended up doing in New York, IIRC. The
Guardies were _not_ pleased ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:14:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Michael Barry wrote:
> >
> >> Excuse ignorance, but what the #@%& is a 'Wendelstein'? And what use is a
> >> Tokamak as a power generator if it consumes 10-100 times more energy than
> >> it generates?
> >
> >	First, the Wendelstein is a 'stellarator' type fusion test
> >reactor, which uses external magnetic coils to compress and contain the
> >plasma in a toroidal configuration. A Tokomak uses the plasma itself to
> >compress and contain itself by running large currents through the plasma
> >generating the requisite magnetic fields.
> 
> This seems to imply that Tokamaks do not use magnetic confinement, they do.
> Ohmic heating is the process of heating  the plasma by running a current
> through it.  The current also produces a "poloidal field" (magnetic field
> running along the axis of the plasma; i.e. through the center of the
> 'doughnut' or torus.  Not being a science type, I'll relate the text of one
> of our PR works ;
> 
> "In the stellerator, the role of the current in the plasma is replaced by
> external magnetic coils, which may make steady state operation easier."
> 
> So, the stellarator (I have not encountered the term "Wendelstein") heats
> by magnetism.

Thanks for the clarification...(the term 'Wendelstein' is referring to a
particular test reactor that one of the members of the list has claimed is
going to be producing power in the next couple of years...since I can't
read German, I'm kinda stuck out of the details he's posted)

Man, I just realized that I wrote a term paper about fusion energy in high
school, over 20 years ago...it was 'just around the corner...' Sigh.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 20:08:05 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft

On 08/14/97 at 05:37 PM,  deadeye@ebicom.net said:

>Sounds good to me.  Except fixed wing pilots CANNOT fly helicopters
>without specific training.  Concepts are similar but controls are 
>different.

>Helo pilots catch on very quickly to fixed wing ops, as they usually start
>in fixed wing in the USAF.

In the US Navy, *all* helo pilots start with fixed wing. Only after getting
their wings for fixed wing aircraft do they start helo school.

I'm not sure, but I think the US Army doesn't give their helo pilots any
fixed wing training at all.  They are the only branch to train enlisted as
helicopter pilots. The Navy and Air Force only train Officers as pilots.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:12:24 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Psionic Institute's Art

What's the deal with the art in this supplement?  Is Bryan Gibson the
first graduate in the Phil Foglio school of art or what?  Or is this
blatant imitation, homage, or
"imitation-is-the-sincerest-form-of-flattery?"

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 20:12:01 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

On 08/14/97 at 02:20 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
said:

>Now if your clever players want to REALLY play with fire let your academic
>one 'remember' how much lift you get from hydrogen ;-> 

Didn't the original poster mention that they had been using swamp gas to
fill the envelope?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't swamp gas mostly
methane?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:03:37 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1688

> From the pen of CardSharks@aol.com was written:

> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:12 -0400 (EDT)
> From: CardSharks@aol.com
> Subject: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
>
> I am writing / re-writing / editing the skills chapter for T41. In
> order to
> promote discussion of each individual skill by those who care about
> it, I am
> posting each individual skill write-up.
>
> I'm plowing through these in order. But if there is one you want to
> talk
> about tell me.
>

(Snip)

> Marc Miller
>
> ------------------------------
>

Marc,

One skill from th CT days that is not present in T4 is the Steward
skill. While I admit that it was a weak skill, "care and feeding of
passengers", I think that it has some potential if expanded. One
expansion I have used in the past is to include cargo handling duties
under this skill. That is the ability to determine the "most efficient
way to store AND SECURE cargo", to explain I point to the most efficient
way to store cargo, obviously last in first out, but if it's screwed up
a lot of time and labor could be wasted moving it. As far as secureing
the cargo, well who wants tons of crates floating around while running
from that pirate at multiple gees! Then there is live cargo and it's
requirements. I have also concidered adding life support to the
steward's responsibility, although this can easily be covered by
Engineering or simple mechanics, but we needd something for these
pest... crewmen to do to earn their pay, if we continue to require them
on passenger carrying ships.

Anyway, just some food for thought,
Mike Peters

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:14:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Joseph Heck wrote:
 
> I think I'm in the minimalist camp. I'd prefer to have more "generic"
> skills, instead of a large number of definitive skills. The biggest thing
> I've had a hard time with in terms of "skills" is that undefinable quality
> that lets you scan the surroundings for a hint of danger or something out
> of place.

It's called 'Perception', but of course it's modified by the particulars
of your career, IMO.

This brings up a refinement of the 'skills' concept that isn't very well
defined. There are two kinds of skills: specific knowledge on subjects,
specific muscle training in certain tasks, and skills that in themselves
are unfocused, but enhance other ones. All right THREE kinds, but the last
is harder to define as a specific skill. As a ferinstance, a character I'm
running right now has Perception 4, and was a police detective in a former
life.  As I run that character, she'll be good at picking out the subtle
hints and clues that enable a detective to do their job, which are
different from the subtle hints and clues that enable a scout to do their
job, or the subtle hints and clues that enable a cryptologist to do thier
job, but someone with Perception X will be equally good at all of them.

A quick perusal of the skills list actually puts only the infamous JOT,
Athletics, Perception, and perhaps, Carousing in the last class of
'skill-enhancing' skills. 

I have no clue how to deal with this, or even whether they need dealing
with, but they're potenially as abusable as JOT, except by modifying the
task descriptions to include the specific skill needed for the general
one, perhaps a Perception (Investigation) task.

Other than that, I'm with Joe in the minimalist camp.
 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:35:52 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: M: E21

At 04:41 PM 8/14/97 -0500, Eris wrote:

>Oh, I don't know, Unilever is pretty well known over here.  How about
>Cebi-Gegi?  Sandoz? 

You're asking a Deadhead if he's ever heard of Sandoz.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:46:14 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Femicide

Moin s.johnson107@genie.com,

> The question is can their societies, heck their cultures SURVIVE male
> to female ratios of 3 to 5 or more to 1?

	hey dont be on you high ross. some hundred years ago the
	christian church had findelkammern in any "kloster", where
	childs could be droped. And good will help them !

	Of course most of them where female.

	Think about war as a kind of population control, for
	most civilisation. War mostly kills men, not women, so
	where is the population control. The population control
	only comes from one fact. That war make men a higher value
	than woman, and that women more of die a "sudden childs dead"

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:23 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: E21 Scenario

I propose the following E21 scenario in the spirit of fun, and recent
discussion about the "Great White North."

Up until the Canuk-Yank war of late July (?)/early August '97, I had
always maintained that J.P. was overly cynical about human nature, in
the suggestion that balkanization was a trait of human society.  With
that understanding, I launch a proposed scenario for the E21 milieu
under recent discussion on the TML.


E21 Scenario Motivation
- -----------------------

The Barnard assignment was one of rotating a number of ships on routine
patrol to maintain a presence given the last decade's discovery of a
new (Vilani) human race on the near worlds of the stars close to Terra.

It just so happened that one Commander Howard Hall, in command of the
American Frigate "Columbus", started the first instance of exchange of
starship fire (combat) by telling the Vilani, "The _Terran_ Way may not
be perfect, but it is superior to your Vilani established traditions."
It is not certain who actually fired the first shot as some recorders
were damaged on the Terran Frigate.

Thus began the First Interstellar War.  The outcome is left to the referee
to determine.

:)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:22 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: A brief explanation

Hi you all.

I have just completed 15 semester hours of Summer session courses.  Needless
to say, I feel relieved.  I have stayed in touch via quick reading my
digests over the past weeks, and have selected a number of notes to get some
more discussion going here. :)  I am also revisiting some past discussion
items that I now have time to give proper attention to.

I am posting as much as I have written, though I admit that the process of
doing the following posts justice, I have managed to stay about as many
digests behind as when I started catching up.  Please bear in mind that I
am about a dozen (at least) behind now.

Some fun things have transpired recently, including getting YAFF&S (Yet
Another FF&S) and Gateway just today, courtesy of an ongoing labor dispute. :)

The list may have been a little hasty in asking the abrupt Canuk-Yank war
(an exaggeration) to go offline.  As Harold pointed out, it was relevant
to the E21 milieu under discussion, though I would put the percentage at
about 30 or 40. B-)  The question of Quebec is an interesting one.  As a
Yank, biased by my media, one would think that Quebec will be independent
some day soon.

While this has always been a "fun" topic to imagine (just from the stand
point of change in the world), I have always deeply suspected that, like
Tianenmen Square, we westerners have been led astray by the headlining
media and those who know how to manipulate it, and in fact Quebec's
secession will always be just a decade away, unless the media succeeds in
making it happen.  (Canada, watch out if Connie Chung heads your way. :)

I look forward to your replies as always.  It has been an interesting
respite, and I expect to be able to follow things more, despite two
systems outages planned for next week that will interrupt some of my
access.  I will, however, persist, as always. B-)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:23 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: RoM/Terran TL

On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:09:31 +1200 (DIGEST #1548)
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>Subject: RoM and TL's
>
>There's been a lot of talk about just what the TL the RoM achieved.
>Here's my take (anoted)
>
>We know that:
>    -2431  Terrans discover J-1 (TL 9) [1]
>    -2408  First Interstellar War ends, Terrans TL 10 [1]


Actually, the FIW ends at -2400 and starts at -2408. [5]

I'm not surprised really.  As someone pointed out before, MT was rather
errata prone.


>    -2398  Terrans discover {develop} J-2 (TL 11) [1]
>    -2389  Terran Navy introduces synaptic robots (TL 12) [2, 3]


I don't consider the debate between one source meaning synaptic and one
source saying AI.  Either source is just as likely to be error-prone.  The
AI does fit in with a higher tech RoM, however.


>    date uncertain  Terrans develop J-3 during 9th Interstellar War (TL 12)
>[4, 5]


There was no 9th Interstellar War.  It was after the 8th that the Terrans
discovered J-3 drives (JumpTech 12, Common Terran Tech 15).  This would have
been a short time before the start of the Nth Interstellar War.


>    -2235  Start of Nth Interstellar War [2, 5]
>    -2204  Terran Confederation disolved, Rule of Man begins [2]
>    -1776  Rule of Man collapses [2]
>Just from these we get the Terrans advancing from TL 9 to TL 11 in just
>33 years, not really too suprising, they just copied the Vilani. But then they
>started to use elements of TL 12 within 11 years of this; most likely this was
>just a case of applying existing Vilani tech in a way the Vilani hadn't.
>However they were clearly into TL 12 in less than 165 years (they had J-3
>before the beginning of the Nth Interstellar War).


See my previous post.


>Extrapolated facts: (I'm being cautious here)
[snip]
>
>From this, and the ingrained technological inertia of the Vilani at the time;
>I think it can safely be assumed the the worlds of the former Ziru Sirka did
>not advance technologically in any great degree during the Rule of Man,
>therefore TL 11 to 12 can be assumed for these worlds.


Again, assuming that JumpTech is the Common Tech of the Vilani Imperium and
the Rule of Man.


>However I do not feel that this is neccessarily true for the former worlds of
>the Terran Confederation. Certainly the Terrans would have now more
>completely absorbed Vilani technology; and most certainly they would
>have not maintained their breakneck technological progress. However it is
>not unbelievable that these worlds could have achieved TL 13 during the
>latter period of the Rule of Man. Now if this is the case why does the 3rd
>Imperium of 1100 commonly believe that they were TL 12. This can be
>taken two ways.
>Firstly the Rule of Man did not achieve TL 13.
>  Okay, this is simple, but T4 is now indicating that the Rule of Man's
>  technology exceeded that of the early 3rd Imperium, which we know
>   was a reasonably mature TL 12 culture (achieved TL 12 in -150 [1])
>
>The second option is that the 3rd Imerium of 1100 has some reason to
>portray the Rule of Man as a technological inferior to the early
>3rd Imperium.
>    Why would they? To undermine Solomani claims to superiority.
>    Could this be done? yes, it would be hard, but not as hard as might be
>    thought. If one assumes that such a policy would have started in the
>    mid 600's under Emperor Zharkirov, it would be very possible to have
>    changed public perceptions by 1100. Even if it were started by Empress
>    Margaret II in the early 900's it would still be quite possible, especially
>    with the Solomani Rim War making it a matter of national security.


A third way of looking at these "facts" from the perspective of Milieux is
close to the second way.

Consider.  A budding Third Imperium has more to gain from focusing on the
truth about the past Imperia, and thus in M:0, the knowledge is common.

Later, in M:1100, there is an established Third Imperium, that has existed
for 1700 years (counting Sylean Federation beginnings) and is more focused
on the present, rather than the past.  For perhaps easy to see reasons,
like the second option above, the TI lets common misperception lie with
respect to what the Rule of Man had _actually_ achieved.  Afterall, Jump
Tech is an easy failing of those who judge history by the achievement of
the Jump drive.


>Now if one takes the second option, one can intergrate M:0 with older
>canon without any radical changes. However in this case the Rule of
>Man's maximum tech level can not go above TL 13, and this must be
>restricted to the last 100 or so years of the Rule of Man (any more than
>this becomes to hard to 'hide'). Note here it is important to note that the
>sources don't state that the Rule of Man did not achieve TL 13, just that
>they did achieve TL 12. This may seem like just a minor semantic
>argument, but it exactly these type of minor semantic arguments which
>could have reshaped the public perceptions of the Rule of Man's TL in
>the late 3rd Imperium.


I like the Jump Tech argument better.  It provides for more understanding
of the Traveller Universe on a grand scale, especially if certain additional
assumptions are made.


>Now for my take on it all. The Rule of Man did achieve TL 13 in its
>final stages, with the exception of J-4, which they didn't get (the absence
>of J-4 drives makes it much easier for them to be portrayed as only TL 12
>at a later date). Their genetic and biological sciences were even more
>advanced than this, probably TL 14. However TL 13 was restricted to
>the former Terran Confederation and never became a mature TL and was
>therefore easily lost during the Long Night.


And, the absence of J-4 drives allows the inferior (-3 level) Jump Tech
argument to be made.


>1 - MT Referee's Companion pp34
>2 - MT Imperial Encylopedia 'A chronology of the Imperium' pp6-7
>3 - CT Book 8 Robots pp6
>4 - CT Alien module 6, Solomani pp5
>5 - MT Imperial Encylopedia pp33
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:24 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: RoM/Terran TL

On Wed, 2 Jul 97 18:02 BST-1 (DIGEST #1513)
aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:
>Subject: Re: ROM Tech Levels
>
>[snippish biggish]
>
>> >Doug, Rats and Cats page 6, bottom of the second column, Bold Type, 
>> >Technology Related
>>  
>> That's for Earth in the MT Era.  The date of preperation is 009-1121,
>> almost 2900 years after the RoM.  Also note that in the same book, pg. 41
>> under World Generation it states that the absolute max for Solomani TL is
>> 15.  Hardly the kind of restriction a people who once rivaled the Ancients
>> would have..
>
>And TL15 is a fairly recent gain - the original Alien Module (set ~10 years 
>earlier) gave a limit of TL14.
>
>Andrew M J Boulton

Andrew,

   Right on both accounts.  The S&A set things at TL15, while Alien Module 6
had a max tech level for the Solomani Confederation being TL14.

   However, since both of these references deal with generating worlds for
M1100 or M1120, they have little bearing on the Tech Level of Terra, Three
Thousand, Five Hundred years Earlier!


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:22 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: E21

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> writes:
>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21
>
>In a message dated 97-08-05 15:31:06 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
> This setting has definite possibilities.  
> 
>>>
>
>I agree.
>
>Marc
>
>Draft Outline.
>* Introduction
>* Setting
>* Characters
>* Mechanics
>* The Solar System
>* Vehicles and Equipment
>* Organizations (reasons for adventuring)
>* The grand story that is being resolved... moving toward a discovery of jump
>drive and the Vilani.
>
>What else?


I like the idea of this Milieu.  It reminds me of Triplanetary, and that is
good.  If the Solar System were too frontier-ish, it would make for a boring
campaign.  If the timeline properly extrapolated several tech levels of
growth in the next century (99 years to jump drive everyone!) then I see a
lot of potential for before and after contact with the Vilani.

Consider, we started at TL5 (1900AD) and reached TL8 (minus a few things)
today.  Given the remarkable growth of the last half-century, it is easy to
extrapolate reaching TL12/13 by the time we invent Jump drive, especially
when you consider rates at which our sciences are growing, and our robots
are exploring the Solar System.

Also, some elements of Traveller: 2300 (2300AD) could be incorporated.


>Marc
>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 22:50:25 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: M: E21

>> Case in point: Unilever is the world's tenth biggest employer -
>> employing
>> three times as many people as, for example, the entire British armed
>> forces.  It's turnover is bigger than the GNP of some European
>> countries
>> (and there are twelve companies bigger than Unilever ... ).  More
>> influential than many governments, I'd say.
>>
>> Mark
>
>And yet, I've never heard of it.  Go figure.  I thought I was a
>reasonable well informed New York Times reading and CNN watching guy.
>Guess I'll have to bursh up.  ;-)

What? You don't have those idiotic "2000 body parts" ads in the states?

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:22 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: T4 _is_ Traveller (was Re: Is T4 Traveller?)

On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:07:39 MET
Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> writes:
>Subject: Re: Is T4 Traveller?
>
>Leroy Guatney wrote:
>> Oh yeah, and before this comes up again, even though AM5 said that GF was
>> very careful and kept count, there is room for one of the children/grand-
>> children being on _Khiinra Ash_, especially since I originally posted that
>> is was _easily_ possible to do a _perfect_ double for the child/gc.  I even
>> posited that a good question would be, which of the two (original or clone)
>> was in the pyramid?
>
>Easily doable?????
>Grandfather "designed" his children so that their brains didn't work 
>in the directions of multiplying, cloning and the like! Their brains 
>were not capable of thinking in that direction: Thus, none of the 
>children could clone themselves! (As i remember!)


Volker,

    Now that finals are over, I can get back to this issue.

    I think that if your memory were correct, Grandfather would not have
had the need for all those robots he built from general dissatisfaction of
the poor performance of the myriad human species that they had "built" and
the general disregard for Grandfather's ways by his children and
grandchildren.

    I'm sorry, but I feel that the _Anomalies_ has put things in as good
a perspective of the past Traveller (Classic) references, hence the change
of the topic I've posted this under.

<JOKE>
    T4 _is_ Traveller.  Period.  End of Story.  There, I've saved the whole
    Droyne race! :)  Next nail-biting concern?
</JOKE>


>Ad Astra,
>V.A.G.       
>Volker A. Greimann


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1690
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1691



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: RoM/Terran TL
E21 Chronology
Re: What is Canon?
Re: RoM/Terran TL (was Re: Interstellar Wars)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1689
Re: J: Uh-oh :)
Re: Spacefaring nations and economics
Re: M: E21
Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 7

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:23 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: RoM/Terran TL

On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:44:17 -0700 (DIGEST #1501)
Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>Subject: Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL
>
>Leroy-
>
>[snippish biggish]
>
>(BTW:  Terra was at TL 13 when invaded by the Imperium at the end of the
>Solomani Rim War, it only reached TL 15 under the Imperial Miltary
>Government [sources: Azhanti High Lightning (game), Invasion: Earth (game)])
>
>Douglas E. Berry


Doug, I have been getting caught up on the digests that came my way while
I hermitized myself for finals.  I saw that you will be away for awhile.
I hope you have the chance to respond to this note, but take your time--
there is no rush.

Thanks for mentioning the above two sources--I really had fun rereading
through my Invasion: Earth game, and it is always a pleasure to pull out
my Supplement 5: Lightning Class Cruisers.

Just to set the record straight, there is absolutely no mention of Terra
being TL13 when invaded by the Imperium, or that it reached TL15 under
Imperial Military rule.  In fact the only UPP given for Terra in the game's
references is 15!  This is consistent with the fact that the MT Referee's
Companion states that the Third Imperium was TL15 at the time also.  Since
Terra had been a member of the TI up until 871, it is no surprise that
Terra would be the Imperium's maximum tech as well.

The only reference to Terra in the Azhanti High Lightning game that I can
find is the fact that two ships in Scout Service are running a special
dispatch service from Core to Terra.  Yes, the Azhantis were built at TL14,
but there is absolutely no mention of them even having been procured at
Terra.  The only rim system that I recognize in the book is Gashidda.

It is possible that I have missed something in these sources, but I do
consider it highly unlikely.  However, if you would be good enough to provide
page numbers and/or specific quotes from those sources, I would be extremely
interested.

I hope you were not counting on my not owning these rather hard to find
pieces of Classic Traveller collectibles. B-)

I have two of each--one for keeping in Mint condition, the other for use
when playing Traveller. <G>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:23 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: E21 Chronology

On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 02:31:52 -0400
hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale) writes:
>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21 (Long)
>
>[<snip>]
>
>   As a matter of fact...
>
>Here's the canonical timeline (with corrections), courtesy of 
>Mr. McKinney's site:
>
>[<snip>]
>- -2510 (AD2007) Archimedes settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
>               Solomani Rim) established as a small mining base. 
>               TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>- -2508 (AD2009) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA) 
>               established on Terra (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, Alien 
>               Module 6 - Solomani, p. 12.
>- -2501 (AD2016) Copernicus settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
>               Solomani Rim), established by America, Britain and 
>               Japan. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>[<snip>]
>- -2460 (AD2057) Solomani bases throughout the Terran solar system 
>               (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, MT Imperial Encyclopedia, 
>               p. 6.
>
>[<snip>]
>   My speculative additions/subtractions/changes:
>
>- -2503 (AD2014) First manned expedition to Mars.  An international
>               effort, it will be a primary factor leading to...
>- -2502 (AD2015) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA)
>               established on Terra.


Why do you want to change this date from the above?


>- -2498 (AD2019) First permanent colony on Luna.  For apparent reasons
>               (all dealing with budgetary considerations), the 2007
>               date isn't going to happen.


Are you saying that the above colonies (Archimedes, Copernicus) were not
permanent?


>- -2467 (AD2050) The ESA LRCM should leave somewhat later, thus 
>               allowing technology a chance to advance a bit further.
>               I would place it more toward AD2070-75. 


I see no reason to change this date either.


>Unlikely       Bases throughout the Solar System.  While it is
>               probable that the Terrans would have throughly 
>               *explored* the Solar System by 2057 (with a combination
>               of manned and unmanned vessels), there would not be
>               any particular incentive to establish bases everywhere.


Nearly the same amount of time before today's date, people were saying
that rockets would never fly as well.  I think you underestimate the
amount of growth we have already gone through, and will be able to go
through in as short a period of time.


>Other notes:   We can safely hypothesize that a scientific revolution
>takes places in the mid-21st century that yields spacecraft-sized fusion
>power plants, gravitics, and most importantly, enviromental controls


Or early 21st century ...


>"European Nationalism" develops.  Perhaps there was a Third World War in
>the early 21st century, which while it caused a great deal of damage,
>did not cause a decline in technology (merely a bit of stagnation) and
>political realignment which set the stage for the New Renaissance.


That could explain the development of a lot of things. :)

We could use 3D star maps too. <G>


>Harold
>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:07:46 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: What is Canon?

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:20:16 -0800
From: aramis@asylumbbs.com (William F. Hostman)
>
>Harold, Leroy:
>
>Canon is more than just what was written, but also the manner of writing.
>The old CT stuff by GDW presented material as fact of the game universe.
>The MT stuff presented materials as though they were "Current best
>knowledge" (a history of technology term, referring to stuff that you know
>might be wrong, but nothing better fits), with the ref's library data
>presenting "Facts". TNE had no consistent approach; The core rulebook was
>"Fact", the RCVG was "Anecdotal", and H&I was "THis is all BS". RSB was,
>much like MT, pretty well Current Best Knowledge.


Wil,  Thanks for "muscling up to the microphone" to spit, and tell us
what is what.  Sometimes, speaking one's conviction can draw fire, but
I nevertheless appreciate it, whether I agree with you or not.


>Canon is also who wrote it. I give higher weight to GDW Products than
>individual authors (Sorry, Marc). I also give higher weight for MT to DGP
>than to individual authors; read the credits for MT and the staff list for
>DGP and you will see why. Here's my basic hierarchy (Best first)


I certainly give a _lot_ of weight to Marc Miller, the most common name
among all of the sources below, whose credits list who did what.  I don't
see how any accounting of Traveller "canon" can ommit this basic reality.


>GDW Pubs (Except challenge)
>DGP Pubs (including TD, MTJ)
>GDW Authors (Marc, Loren, Keith & Keith, Chadwick, Nilsen[sp?])
>DGP Authors (Keith, Fugate, Thomas, Caswell)
>Other DGP and GDW Staffers
>Gamelords Pubs
>Traveller Chronicle
>CHallenge Magazine
>The Adjutant (for it's local area only)
>Other Stuff for Traveller


I'm not trying to offend here, but this seems overly complex.  I have
been in programming circles for going on 18 years, and the old "KISS"
principal would seem to be desired here.


>(I like the Judges Guild sectors... a full domain sized are with little
>imperial prescence... I was really miffed when the "Land Grannts" were
>revoked, and Imperial Atlas didn't have listings for all worlds. So I
>continued to use the JG Domain; although, you'l note, I don't discuss them
>in canon terms-- GDW Decanonized them, the ultimate source.)


And properly so.  Of course, I never underestimate the referee's capacity
for taking something that needs work, and turning it into hours of fun.


>I suppose that T4 should top the list, but I can't quite see it as the same
>environment; the tone of writing is too much like WoD (Vampire, et al);
>nothing is an absolute truth... thus there is no real "canon" there. T4
>encourages wide interpretations, as it's as vague as CT was, but covers
>MUCH MUCH more ground, and in much more depth. (I realize this looks to be
>an oxymoron, but think about it... on three axis: Scope, Depth, truth)


Well, if you are trying to make a comparison to the low point of TNE, the
H&I (as you mentioned above and I heartily agree, especially being a fan
of Hivers and such), I think that has gone a little too far.  At the same
time, I would argue that there are some realities of gaming in the '90s
that we fans of gaming in the '70s to '80s have to realize.

[snip]

>
>William F. Hostman              
><Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com>
>

Again, thanks for sharing your "canon" story with this "canon-newbie." :)


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:23 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: RoM/Terran TL (was Re: Interstellar Wars)

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:34:45 -0700
Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com> writes:
>Subject: Re: Interstellar Wars
>
>[snip]
>
>Wonderful! I highly recommend that you make this your second "milieu."
>
>I think from the general level of interest on the list, you can see that
>many Traveller players are interested in roleplaying in the IW era.
>
>Some considerations you might take into account:
>
>o Design the milieu to cover the entire period of the Interstellar Wars
>  (-2408 to -2219 3I, or 2112 to 2301 A.D.), with the technology
>  advancement bar listed alongside the timeline. That way, players and
>  refs can determine what level the Vilani and Solomani would have
>  achieved depending on what year they played in (e.g., -2398, Solomani
>  achieve TL 11 with advent of the J-2 drive; -2280, Solomani achieve TL
>  12 with advent of the J-3 drive, etc.)
>[snip]
>
>Best,
>
>Chris Griffen
>

Chris,

Thanks for that excellent setup line! B-)

I find it ironic that I have been planning phase II of the Great RoM Tech
Level discussion, and interestingly enough, I had decided to pick the
Interstellar Wars for my starting point.  Then, here comes the thread. B-)

The RoM Tech Level discussion (from my perspective) has only dealt with the
"raw facts" that I had suggested were around to support the T4 system's
claim of a higher than (TML) believed tech level.  I had always stated that
there was scant information about the Rule of Man, the Interstellar Wars,
and that general period of Traveller history.  This view has been reinforced
by the simple fact that there are only six UPPs that have been published for
Terra in the mainstream of Traveller, and three are debatable as to their
"canonality" and/or relevance.

Some have suggested that I had a motive in proving that the RoM was a
higher tech level.  That is not the case.  My motive was proving that
the RoM _could_ have been as T4 has suggested.  Having listened to all
of the "evidence", both for and against, I am left with two points of
view.  I am doing my best to state both views below.  Afterwards, my
conclusions follow.


I now take the POV of those who argued that the RoM was merely a TL12 entity,
whose primary support is drawn from the Jump-Tech Level tables that were
printed in the MT Referee's Companion, pg. 34.

TL 12 RULE OF MAN (Maximum TL at anytime in the Rule of Man was 12)

This view's assertion is primarily based upon tables that were prefaced by
the words "tech levels achieved by the major interstellar powers."  (BTW,
I view _this_ Vilani Imperium, as decadent, if not more, than the Chanestin
Kingdom of M:0.)

Terra had invented the Jump drive just a mere 23 years before the start of
the First Interstellar Wars.  They didn't even know they had an interstellar
drive for nearly half of that 23 years.  Using their Jump fuel caches, they
reached Barnard, Prometheus, and Agidda to find that there were already
Vilani in these systems.  War begins, and luckily, the Terrans had built
up large caches of Jump fuel, to last the eight years of the First
Interstellar War.  Luckily, captured Vilani technology gave the Terrans
an even keel in Tech Level against the Vilani--both are TL 11 by the time
the Second Interstellar War begins.

The Vilani Empire was so decadent, that these little frontier rebellions
(Interstellar Wars) are prosecuted by the Terrans for seven or so wars,
until the decadent Empire finally mobilizes in 150 years, all of its
rimward frontier might, but it is too late.  Terra has captured two whole
subsectors, has begun colonizing a third and it is too much for 12,000 world
Imperium to handle when the Terrans make that startling breakthrough--Jump 3
drives.  With the startling advantage of TL12 technology, this little three
subsector tech level 12 state continues to use the advantage of 50% greater
jump capabilities, and through this "capture the flag" scenario, the Terrans
conquer the decadent empire of the Vilani.

By the time the Vland fleet catches up to the Terran fleet, they have seized
the Empire, the homeworld, and the Vilani have nothing left to do but to
surrender unconditionally.

Or ...


A HIGHER TECH RULE OF MAN (Maximum TL agrees with T4, i.e. 15 or more)

The Terrans had a firm biotech of 14 by -2400 (when the Dolphins et al
ere modified) and just happened to lag behind in jump tech by 3 tech levels.
Afterall, they didn't even know they had jump drive for over a decade after
it had been invented, so being behind in the arena of jump tech is no
surprise.

Since Terran manufacturing was well ahead of the Vilani (themselves at TL13),
it was fortunate for the Terrans that they had a one TL advantage over the
Vilani to compensate for the Terran backwardness with respect to jump tech.
The impetuous Terrans didn't know how lucky they were fighting the First
Interstellar War what with a decadent Imperial structure on the rimward end
of the Grand Imperium.  Had they known just what they were undertaking, they
may have just fled to as far rimward as their ships would carry them.

Just learning of the fact that there were jump drives in the universe which
were capable of more than a parsec range, the Terrans quickly revisited the
jump technology that they were now dependent upon for their very lives, and
by the end of the FIW, had successfully duplicated known Vilani J-2 capacity.

The turning point, again luckily for the Terrans, was the Terran invention
of the J-3 drive, again, luck in the sense that the Vilani had mobilized vast
resources to pound these frontier upstarts.  The combined fact of Terran TL15
weapons systems, and spacecraft systems (the jump tech lag was still 3) and
somewhat superior jump technology (compared to the Vilani J-2 maximum) gave
the Terrans decisive advantage entering the period of the Nth Interstellar
War (a collective name for several important battles to which no one could
be properly called an Interstellar War in past consecutive fashion).

A single tech level of advantage in Jump, and two tech level advantage in
general tech capabilities gave the Terrans an Empire to Rule.  While the
Terrans had reached a TL16 science of Terraforming, the emphasis on terra-
forming new worlds was reduced with the whole frontier of the Vilani worlds
of the Grand Imperium.  Later, isolated cases of applied Terran science for
terraforming would be used, but these would be exceptions, not the rule.

Note: this latter view is entirely consistent with all of the information
presented in June and July to this list: CT, MT, TNE, and T4.


CONCLUSIONS

Awhile back, a couple of people here on TML told me (on the HIWG list) that
Traveller is 95% game mechanics and other things, with background being only
5%.  While my knowledge of Traveller is richer for all of the discussion
here, I don't think their estimates were anywhere close, given the response
I have generally seen here to the over all discussion of the Rule of Man's
Tech Level.

I am not contending that TL15+ was the average TL of RoM, just the maximum,
and I said a long time ago, that it was skewed toward the Terran Rim, and
nowhere even near the average consistent tech level of the Third Imperium.
This _is_ consistent with the T4 quote that I previously provided.  (For
those not familiar with the TI's worlds, tech ranges from typically seven
to 16, averaging somewhere in between.)  Perhaps the average Vilani tech
would contribute to a higher mean due to the age of their empire, but
it would probably still fall below the TI (M1100) mean tech level.  Afterall,
the Terran sphere was not very big upon consolidation of the Vilani Imperium.

I am sorry, but trying to persuade me that the Terrans had to resort to
stealing Vilani Tech to make further progress, after reaching TL14 by the
time of the FIW's end, just does not do anything for me.  Especially, when
you consider that the rapid progress along the Tech Level lines right up to
the Interstellar Wars period, is in _perfect_ harmony with what Terra started
to accomplish after the world's Great Depression of the 1930's.

A high Tech Terra, all the way through the Interstellar Wars, through the
entire period of the Rule of Man, through the Long Night, through the early
Dawn, and later joining the Third Imperium _is_ consistent with what has
been published.  And I can see this for either a Terra of TL15 or TL16 as
a common Tech.

I have developed an opinion that MT did Traveller a disservice by fogging
the Tech Level tables with WBH and doing the Tech Level dilineation that
it did.  At the same time, the very nature of minor alien/human races by
definition break the idea of standard Tech Level rules, the most extreme
case being the Sabmiqys (TL17, but STL travel, no FTL) of Antares sector.

Whether the facts and view of RoM as I have presented them here were by
design (as is my view of what Marc Miller intended) or a grand mistake
that somehow conspired to so consistently warp the reality of Traveller
(that of most people's view of the universe), the table is set and there
is a _reality_ that _is_ plausible to anyone who has not yet managed to
run a Traveller campaign set in the RoM era.  It is those people who have
nothing to loose by enriching their universe in this fashion.


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:48:28
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1689

At 08:14 PM 14/08/97 -0400, you wrote:

>From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
>Subject: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?
>
>I haven't seen anything on the digest about this product since it's been
>released, so here's my two cents worth....
>
>
>...and I saw that you have to (a) buy enough fuel to get the missile to
>the target, as opposed to buying a Generic Missile Booster with perhaps
>the cost and bulk determined by TL, and that (b) this is expressed in
>G-hours.
>
>Now this presumes (unless I'm way off base) that your ships -- the
>targets you are trying to hit -- ALSO have their thrust expressed in
>G-hours.... but they aren't (they are expressed, of course, in terms of
>ACCELERATION, from 1-6 G's). There were plenty of examples of things
>that aren't addressed in the main rule system (that is just the one I
>happen to recall).... just as there was in the SSDS, where there were
>row upon row of abstract figures and values that STILL haven't been
>explained or addressed (light-seconds, having to convert damage from
>obsolete TNE measures to T4, etc., with zero explanation of what these
>numbers meant, where they came from, or were intended to be used for).
>

A light-second is the distance light travels in one second viz 300 000km.

A G is an acceleration of 10 meters per second squared. A G-hour is
an accleration of one gee sustained for one hour. If a missile has
four gee-hours worth of fuel, it could accelerate at rour gees for
one hour, one gee for four hours, one tenth of a gee for forty hours
and so on (assuming of course it's maneuvering system can produce
enough thrust to accelerate at those rates).

A g-hour rating is needed, becasue lets say I have a missile that can pull
fifty gees. Can it hit your one-gee freighter ? Maybe. Who knows. Cant tell 
... until I know how long the missile (and the freighter for that matter)
can *sustain* that acceleration. Is it better to have a fifty-gee engine
with enough fuel for three minutes thrust, or a ten gee engine that can
keep the thrust up for an hour ? I dont know ... thats a design decision.

Also, if you check most designs for ships that use HEPLAR, they do have
acceleration listsed in gee-hours (eg "enough fuel for twenty hours 
operation at two gees).

>
>In other words, it looks as though it were produced Of, By, and For the
>Traveller Mailing List, and is about as useful to anybody NOT being a
>math whiz and and NOT having all the old books memorized and NOT having
>been along for the ride for the past ten-fifteen-odd years as teats on a
>boar hog. What IS a G-hour? WHERE is this mentioned in the T4 rulebook?
>HOW does one build a QSDS or even SSDS ship and then build an FF&S2
>missile to shoot at it? How, for Christ's sake, do you determine who
>hits what?


You know the ships acceleration out of QSDS/SSDS. Now build your
missile, and give it a conservative fuel allowance of thirty minutes
maximum thrust. Done.

And I'd say TTA is a product built by and for gearheads, rather than by
and for TML list people.

>
>I am now convinced that with such a bizarre, retrograde design backbone
>for their game system -- hardware design being central to the hard-SF
>genre -- that IG will falter and die off within two or three years.
>Which is a drastic assumption to make after five minutes of skimming
>through one book, and I openly welcome testimony to the contrary. I rode
>the bus for half an hour to Gamescape because I was willing to look at
>it and be convinced, and I still am. If you can convince me that it
>ain't that bad and is relevant to existing material, then I will try to
>swallow all those formulae. For example: is there an updated combat
>system in FF&S2 that makes use of G-hours, and moreover will convert
>existing ship designs whose thrust is expressed in G's of acceleration
>to G-hour-stats... and I skimmed over it? Let's see some reviews &
>feedback, please.

TTA is for people who *dont* want to design things by plugging pre-designed
components into pre-designed hulls. It's a product by and for gearheads,
for people who want to get deep into the guts of the design system, and
try out things like solar-powered particle accelerators on a hull made of
fibreglass - things that existing rules and designs dont cover.

(hmmm ... the fibreglass hull could spoof densitometers, and since we arent
using fission or fusion then a lot of the other sensors will have problems
as well ... we'll need a little combat maneuverability, so lets add some
solid-fuel boosters ... say three gee-seconds worth, so we can get off a 
second shot when fighting at a lightsecond or so ... hmmmmm). 

>
>In the meantime, I'd encourage anybody putting together an Excel
>spreadsheet for FF&S2 to limit themselves to creating one spreadsheet
>for each component type, instead of super-gigantic, all-encompassing
>monsters to design a whole ship by. If you can put something together to
>let mere mortals like myself create their own spinal mount or capital
>missile launcher or sensor suite, then have a column at the bottom
>expressing the result in T4 stats so we can plug it into our SSDS/QSDS
>creations, that would be the greatest of services to the T4 gaming
>community at large. If IG has two active brain cells to rub together at
>this point, they'll put them on a CD-ROM and start bundling them with
>the rulebook.... and eliminate all that pointless, unexplained crap
>about 'microseconds' and 'G-hours.'

A microsecond is an SI unit for one thousandth of a second. 

The point about T4 stats is well made - the problem is that the TTA
designers got told to build the new design system now, and other people
will build the new combat system later.

Part of the problem with putting the rules on CD-ROM is that people
would copy them onto floppies, and IG would have trouble with piracy.


Ian Whitchurch

PS Why the heck didnt you glance through it, see that it was full of
things you didnt want and leave it on the shelf at the convention ?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:10:17 -0700
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: J: Uh-oh :)

> Date:          Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:19:09 -0700 (MST)
> From:          Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>
> 	Well, I think you're a bit cooler than NYC in August, but man, I'd
> just give the garbage workers what they want... it can get awfully smelly
> in a humid environment like Vancouver..and it's astonishing how much
> garbage is generated daily in large urban areas.

With temps in the mid 20s to low 30s (Celsius - we're not _that_ far 
north :), things are ripening nicely. :/ 


- --
Edward Swatschek  *  edjs@bitslayer.net
                     edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:05:52 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Spacefaring nations and economics

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, Michael Barry wrote:

Just som comments
> 
> Political groupings: (suggested)
> Oceanic Union (Aust, NZ, SW Pacific islands and a number of SE Asian
> nations in an economic/military alliance along the lines of the European
> Union/NATO. 
> Japan/Korea bloc. 
> China/Russia bloc.

I really don't see China and Russia coorperating in any way. They have
both traditions for establising empires and are likly to clash soemtime in
the future as there economies are resurected and there vision of glorious
empires return.
 
> Europa (current-day European Union plus Eastern Europe, Turkey and Egypt?)

EU is today faced with a long line of problems as more and more right
ekstrimist groups get power in their country (France for example),
strenghtening the nationalistic movements. I have a strong feeling that
the UK is going to withdraw from the European Union sometime in the
beginning of the next century, as well as Sweden and Denmark.
Egypt is never going to be a member of the EU, but the palistinian might
if they are accepted into the Commonwealth. Isreal is also a much more
natural candidate than Egypt, IMHO.

> North American bloc (USA, Canada, Mexico plus a few other Central American
> states)
> South American bloc.

Keep Brazil independent of the others, IMO.

> Middle Eastern bloc. 
> Subsaharan African bloc. 
> 
> Of course, the *real* powers would be the corporations, particularly those
> controlling access to the massdrivers and beanstalks (projects that would
> strain the finances of nation-states, but well within the capability of
> corporations). 

I have a problem with giving coorporations to much power as regulations
become more and more complex and strict. Take a look at EU and all its law
and regulations on monopoly and to large marketshares. Consumerrights are
important and it will always be the nations or unions of nations that take
care this.

  > 
> This offers us a trigger for the First Interstellar War: corporations
> become impatient with negotiating for resources with the Vilani, and
> fabricate evidence of a Vilani 'attack' on Terran interests...drawing the
> various power blocs, and the UN, into war. 
> 

That is a very interesting idea. Very in character for Terrans.

> **************************************************************************
> Michael Barry
> mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
> **************************************************************************
> 
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 00:07:18 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M: E21

On 08/14/97 at 08:35 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>At 04:41 PM 8/14/97 -0500, Eris wrote:

>>Oh, I don't know, Unilever is pretty well known over here.  How about
>>Cebi-Gegi?  Sandoz? 

>You're asking a Deadhead if he's ever heard of Sandoz.

Doug, you don't count! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:14:39 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 7

	Just ran the seventh session of my latest campaign, titled
Traveller: Beyond The Pale.  Here's the post-game summary:

The Cast:

Amr Santayema: a young and sneaky merchant, played by the TML's own Ross
Coburn, who's giving their (highly corrupt) lawyer a hard run for the
Biggest Crook On Board Prize.

Lt Kehaaarl: An Aslan ex-marine.  Big, bad, furry.  Played by the TML's
Jason Jones.

Sir Loreni Vilash: Vilani merchant from a poor family whose trading acumen
led him to a knighthood.

Perlis Dalal: a muscular female ex-scout, who strangely enough wound up
being the major shareholder.  Played by the TML's Glenn Grant.

Elo Lezaar, a highly geeky Vilani ex-Navy sensors and electronics tech.  He
mumbles, collects meditation rugs and gravitationally abuses bees, and is
played by TML'er Sebastien Normandin.

Lt. Kurek: A tall, blond, shades-wearing former Navy gunner who'll be
manning the nuke damper and serving margaritas to the passengers.



	Last week, things finally came to head on Mishegaan III, but they
nevertheless managed to get to jump point with a cargo (after Sir Loreni
made a daring high-G escape).


	As Sir Loreni, suffering from bloodshot eyes, extreme fatigue,
ruptured capilliaries, and other G-induced symptoms, watched, Perlis fired
up the jump drive and dropped the Versailles and its crew of tired,
injured, and stressed-out merchants into jumpspace.  After entry had taken
place nominally, various crewmembers wandered off to their quarters to
unwind, which in Kehaaarl's case involved inventorying, stripping, and
cleaning the contents of the weapons locker.

	Amr, however, had other plans.  After ensuring that they were
alone, he broached the subject of the jettisonable programmable transponder
he had stolen from the FSY Moonshine RI/ESS that Sir Loreni had made his
escape in, breaking his leg in the process.  He proposed that he sell the
extremely valuable and highly illegal device to the company in return for
15% of the company's shares.    The deal he proposed was non-optimal;
however, Perlis, not being a businessperson, didn't quite realize this.

	At that point, however, he was interrupted by a comm ping from Elo.
Elo, acting on a complaint from a passenger that there was an unpleasant
smell in their stateroom, had investigated.  After determining that the
smell appeared to be emanating from the ventilation duct, he'd sent a small
waldobot into the ventilation ducts to see what was the problem.  After
exploring the ducts, he'd come across a decomposing human head in one of
them.

	Startled by his disgusting find, he called Amr and proceeded to use
the waldobot to drag the head down to a point where it could be removed.
With Kehaaarl, as chief of security, supervising, they bagged the head and
brought it up to the sickbay.  As their passenger included a doctor fleeing
the insurection on Mishegaan III, they asked him for his assistance.  The
doctor, after taking numerous tissue samples and running various forensics
tests, determined that the head had been decomposing for approximately two
weeks, and that sometime at or around the time of death had been
deep-frozen.

	After some discussion, it was decided to put the head in a bag and
blow it out an airlock upon their emergence from jumpspace.  Kehaaarl,
meanwhile, proceeded to investigate.  He discovered that the head had
belonged to a member of the Versailles' former crew, a gunner, who had
apparently jumped ship on the Versailles' last stop prior to jumping into
Mishegaan, where it had been repossessed.  A search of the ship revealed
nothing save a case of alcoholic beverages stored in a low berth and some
packets of a blue crystalline powder that turned out to be a highly illegal
drug tucked into the same area of the vents as the head had been.

	Meanwhile, Amr continued pestering Perlis, who finally agreed to
put the deal before a shareholders' meeting.  As all the shareholders (with
the exception of the late Dame Iliana, whose estate was in any case
represented by her manager, Onyas Sedducha) were on board, this went
forwards, with a slight delay due to the fact that Mr. Sedducha was found
in a drug-induced torpor in his quarters, much to the amusement of some of
his fellow passengers.

	The meeting, however, was something of a bust, as the extreme
dislike between Amr and Liontzel Huutzaa, whom Amr accused of having
cheated him out of several million credits (if you recall, Huutzaa had
prevented Amr from swindling Sir Loreni, or at least partially prevented
him from doing so, at the beginning of the campaign).  Huutzaa raised
several cogent objections to the deal, Amr threatened to shoot Huutzaa, Sir
Loreni had to pull a gun in order to calm everyone down, and the whole
thing fell apart in considerable acrimony.

	Shortly thereafter, Huutzaa pinged Perlis and suggested an
alternative deal to her, one which would allow the company to acquire the
transponder, her to keep her majority, and Amr to obtain an increase of 15%
in his shareholdings (the transponder being of course an extremely valuable
item to anybody wishing to operate outside the law).  This was eventually
agreed upon, although the minority shareholders, who were somewhat hosed by
the deal, were not entirely pleased.

	The rest of the jump proceeded relatively uneventfully; tensions
were high down in the passenger quarters, as the two former Ling Security
lieutenants  cut their former commander dead at every opportunity, the
doctor and his family avoided the lot of them, and Huutzaa was snidely
above it all.  Mr. Sedducha kept more or less to his stateroom, regularly
dosing himself into insensibility.  The week was passed with the Ling
lieutenants gambling continuously and discussing their former boss's
personal hygiene habits in front of him as if he wasn't there.

	At emergence minus three hours, all crew were at their stations,
their light banter tempered by the usual expectancy.  Right on schedule,
the ship emerged from jumpspace, and the bridge crew discovered that the
old dictum "In space nobody can hear you scream" was not entirely true:

	Rather than the usual starscape, what appeared before them was a
vast, dazzlingly brilliant surface several kilometers across that was
triggering their anti-collision alarms and which they were closing with at
the rate of about 500 meters a second on an unavoidable collision
trajectory, with impact in five seconds.  To compound the horror of their
situation, their attack alarms also began screaming, indicating that the
ship was being illuminated by a strong coherent light source.  Panic ensued.

	However, five seconds later the Versailles simply punched right
through what proved to be a large light sail.  Some investigation proved
that it was hauling what appeared to be an unmanned cargo pod and was being
pushed by large lasers located on the system's second planet.  Over the
next fifteen minutes, sensor scans indicated a fair amount of TL-9
activity; several orbiting habitats, some NERVA fission drive ships,
numerous artificial satellites, some solar sail craft, ground-to-space
spaceplanes, and so forth.  They decided to head for a large double-toroid
geosynchronous habitat.

	Shortly thereafter, they began picking up a broadcast directed
towards them; Elo put it on speakers.  It sounded like an odd mixture of
Mandarin and Vilani with considerable linguistic drift thrown in.  After
some discussion, they decided to respond with the following message in High
Vilani"This is the Imperial merchant vessel Versailles, Sir Loreni Vilash
commanding.  We come in peace, with intent to trade".

	Approximately half an hour after that, they began recieving a
broadcast in High Vilani; the locals had roused the head of the Vilani
department at a university out of his bed and put him in front of a mike
and camera.  Dialogue was begun; the professor was thrilled not only at the
news of the reformation of the Imperium, but also at the fact that after 40
years of teaching a dead language, he was all of a sudden getting some
serious respect.  Cultural and linguistic data were exchanged.  After a
while the professor handed them off to a graduate student as he was to
board a spaceplane to rendezvous with them at the geosynchronous habitat.
And we ended with them arriving at the habitat and discovering that
incompatible docking hardware was going to make an EVA transfer a
neccessity.



	Next game will probably be in a couple of weeks.  I start bar
school and a job at a nice firm downtown pretty soon, and so I'm not sure
when or how often we'll be able to play again.  However, if and when we
continue, I'll post the summaries.



Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1691
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1692



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Beyond the Pale: Shugilli system.
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: black globes
Re: black globes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:20:42 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Beyond the Pale: Shugilli system.

	Here's a writeup on the system the Versailles just jumped into.
Anyone who wants to use it is welcome to.  Several of the designs have
already been posted to the TML.





Shugilli G2 V
Mass of central star (in solar masses): 1.00
Luminosity of central star (relative to the sun):  0.99

Shugilli I E200105-6:
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   0.341
   Mass (in Earth masses):   0.220
   Equatorial radius (in Km):     3893.8
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec):  6.71
   Surface Gravity (in Earth gees):  0.59
   Surface Pressure (in atmospheres): 0.000
   Surface temperature (Celcius): 193.31
   Hydrosphere percentage:   0.00
   Cloud cover percentage:   0.00
   Ice cover percentage:   0.00
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 22
   Length of year (in days):   72.89
   Length of day (in hours):   19.93
   Notes: Science, Mining, Boost Laser stations,

Shugilli II E200105-6:
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   0.505
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.091
   Mass (in Earth masses):   0.202
   Equatorial radius (in Km):     3786.9
   Density (in g/cc):  5.310
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec):  6.52
   Smallest molecular weight retained: 18.65
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 561.97
   Surface Gravity (in Earth gees):  0.57
   Boiling point of water (celcius): -273.0
   Surface Pressure (in atmospheres): 0.000
   Surface temperature (Celcius): 112.78
   Hydrosphere percentage:   0.00
   Cloud cover percentage:   0.00
   Ice cover percentage:   0.00
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 28
   Planetary albedo: 0.060
   Length of year (in days):  130.99
   Length of day (in hours):   20.22
   Notes: Science, Mining, Boost Laser stations,

Maaliikaa F9AA8BB-8
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   0.877
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.015
   Mass (in Earth masses):   1.525
   Equatorial radius (in Km):     7128.5
   Density (in g/cc):  5.494
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec):  12.84
   Smallest molecular weight retained: 4.81
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 1125.13
   Surface Gravity (in Earth gees):  1.15
   Boiling point of water (celcius): 129.5
   Surface Pressure (in atmospheres): 2.702     RUNAWAY GREENHOUSE EFFECT
   Surface temperature (Celcius): 45.69
   Hydrosphere percentage: 97.3
   Cloud cover percentage:   96.00
   Ice cover percentage:   0.00
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 29
   Planetary albedo: 0.342
   Length of year (in days):  300.44
   Length of day (in hours):   20.92
   Notes: Mainworld.

Shugilli IV:
Gas giant...
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   1.793
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.002
   Mass (in Earth masses):   6.262
   Equatorial radius (in Km):    18997.9
   Density (in g/cc):  1.303
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec): 16.21
   Smallest molecular weight retained:  3.02
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 691.87
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 29
   Planetary albedo: 0.508
   Length of year (in days):  877.67
   Length of day (in hours):   15.54
   Notes: mining and habitat construction takng place inrings.

Shugilli V H527708-5:
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   2.956
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.140
   Mass (in Earth masses):   0.453
   Equatorial radius (in Km):     4941.6
   Density (in g/cc):  5.356
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec):  8.55
   Smallest molecular weight retained: 10.86
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 739.66
   Surface Gravity (in Earth gees):  0.75
   Boiling point of water (celcius): 57.3
   Surface Pressure (in atmospheres): 0.174
   Surface temperature (Celcius): -130.15
   Hydrosphere percentage:   0.00
   Cloud cover percentage:   0.00
   Ice cover percentage:  68.04
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 19
   Planetary albedo: 0.554
   Length of year (in days): 1857.62
   Length of day (in hours):   17.62
   Notes: Science station established in TL-12 relic underground habitat.

Shugilli VI:
Gas giant...
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   5.160
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.299
   Mass (in Earth masses):  69.313
   Equatorial radius (in Km):    41830.7
   Density (in g/cc):  1.351
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec): 36.35
   Smallest molecular weight retained:  0.60
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 1579.66
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 20
   Planetary albedo: 0.491
   Length of year (in days): 4284.26
   Length of day (in hours):   10.28

Shugilli VII:
Gas giant...
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):   8.852
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.182
   Mass (in Earth masses):  11.727
   Equatorial radius (in Km):    26059.7
   Density (in g/cc):  0.946
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec): 18.95
   Smallest molecular weight retained:  2.21
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 688.64
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 46
   Planetary albedo: 0.529
   Length of year (in days): 9626.17
   Length of day (in hours):   15.57

Shugilli VIII:
Gas giant...
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):  13.121
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.083
   Mass (in Earth masses): 557.816
   Equatorial radius (in Km):    83066.4
   Density (in g/cc):  1.389
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec): 73.18
   Smallest molecular weight retained:  0.15
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 3223.89
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 25
   Planetary albedo: 0.495
   Length of year (in days): 17357.91
   Length of day (in hours):    7.20

Shugilli IX X8A0000-0:
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):  28.450
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.000
   Mass (in Earth masses):   0.372
   Equatorial radius (in Km):     6182.7
   Density (in g/cc):  2.246
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec):  6.93
   Smallest molecular weight retained: 16.54
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 388.05
   Surface Gravity (in Earth gees):  0.40
   Boiling point of water (celcius): -38.8
   Surface Pressure (in atmospheres): 0.000
   Surface temperature (Celcius): -222.00
   Hydrosphere percentage:   0.00
   Cloud cover percentage:   0.00
   Ice cover percentage:   0.10
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 30
   Planetary albedo: 0.145
   Length of year (in days): 55468.32
   Length of day (in hours):   24.33

Shugilli X E700105-4:
   Distance from primary star (in A.U.):  46.864
   Eccentricity of orbit: 0.047
   Mass (in Earth masses):   0.283
   Equatorial radius (in Km):     5653.0
   Density (in g/cc):  2.236
   Escape Velocity (in km/sec):  6.32
   Smallest molecular weight retained: 19.88
   Surface acceleration (in cm/sec2): 353.22
   Surface Gravity (in Earth gees):  0.36
   Boiling point of water (celcius): -42.6
   Surface Pressure (in atmospheres): 0.000
   Surface temperature (Celcius): -233.32
   Hydrosphere percentage:   0.00
   Cloud cover percentage:   0.00
   Ice cover percentage:   0.11
   Axial tilt (in degrees): 64
   Planetary albedo: 0.146
   Length of year (in days): 117268.25
   Length of day (in hours):   25.50


Executive Summary, Sociological Report, Maaliikaa:
Huutash Guudaagash, IISS, IY60.

	Although originally first explored by Vilani scouts during the
first Human exploration of the Shugilli cluster a few centuries after the
founding of the Ziru Sirkaa, its distance (3 parsecs from the Mishegaan
system, itself 2 parsecs from the nearest Main) out into the Great Rift was
a deterrent to its settlement for millenia; it was only after the Vilani
developed Jump-2 that settlement of the Shugilli cluster began.  Even then,
the extended travel times to the rest of the Ziru Sirkaa, three weeks and
two jumps, one to a deep space refuelling depot between Mishegaan and the
cluster, were an impediment to its rapid development.

	As well, Mishegaan's climate was rather marginal for a human
colony.  A high surface gravity of 1.15 G's, an atmospheric pressure of 2.7
Imperial norm, pronounced greenhouse conditions, a high average
temperature, and absence of large landmasses (Maaliikaa's surface is over
97% water) combined to make it a mere refuelling stop for some time.

	However, Maaliikaa was host to a wide variety of aquatic life
forms, the most important from the human point of view being numerous
species of mammoth marine plants.  Collectively called "Jumigaash" by the
Vilani settlers, rooted forms grew in vast beds wherever the ocean
shallowed out to 80 meters or less.  Other variants formed free-drifting
pelagic beds, some reaching sizes of tens of thousands of kilometers
across.  Their photosynthetic processes geared more towards the infrared
end of the spectrum, giving them a dark-brown to black colour, these plants
and their ancestors had been thriving in Maaliikaa's warm and fertile seas
for hundreds of millions of years.

	So aside from providing a variety of ecological niches for
thousands of forms of marine life forms, and useful organic raw materials
for human industry, they had also provided Maaliikaa with mammoth reserves
of fossil hydrocarbons (enough to support moderate extraction rates for
millenia), which although long obsolete as a fuel for the technologically
advanced Ziru Sirkaa, was still valuable for several industrial purposes
such as the manufacture of some plastics and food synthesis.  Thus, oil
extraction became the driving force behind the Ziru Sirkaa's colonization
of Maaliikaa during the last century prior to contact with the Terrans; it
became the bread and plastics basket of the cluster.  Aquatic towns based
on clusters of large, mobile oil drilling platforms began their
peregrinations about the planet, and spaceports were constructed on the two
islands large enough to support them.

	This role it continued to fill during the Second Imperium.
However, the Long Night came early to the Shugilli cluster; the last Rule
Of Man starship to depart Maaliikaa downport did so in IY -1760.  By then,
however, the social changes that were to preserve Maaliikaan society in a
stable form throughout the Long Night were well under way.

	In IY -1802 one Deng Kwan Tung had succeeded to the office of
System Governor under the Rule Of Man.  A Solomani of Chinese extraction,
he was extremely well-versed in the classics of Chinese philosophy;
Confucius's Analects, Emperor Mao's Little Red Book, Li Shung Li's
Reunificationist Essays, to name but a few.  A Sinologist and sociologist
of no mean standing, he found himself ruling a system whose population
consisted largely of Vilani and more recently arrived Chinese; the Terran
nation China it will be recalled was the source of a remarkably large
percentage of Terran expatriates during the Solomani expansion.

	Tung naturally began to study Vilani culture and mores.  By all
accounts an open-minded individual, he discovered not only the well-known
similarities between traditional Chinese culture and the Vilani Way, he
also found much of the Vilani Way greatly admirable.  A rather daring
indivdual, with ambitions on a rather grander scale than most
administrators, he began to concieve of a culture that was a synthesis of
all that was best in both the Chinese and Vilani cultures.

	It has been said of the Second Imperium that it had much the effect
on the Vilani as a sword slicing through a pool of still water; it caused a
few ripples which subsided after the blade had passed, leaving only still
water in its wake.  What Tung put into action was rather like adding sea
water to the pool; an admixture occurred, initially causing ripples,
ripples that eventually subsided into a clear pool.  However, the still,
stable waters of Maaliikaan society were now somewhat different; elements
of Confucianist values, Imperial Chinese governmental structures and
traditional Sino-capitalism had been added to the Vilani caste system,
collectivist social values, and conservatism.  Public ritual elements from
both cultures were fused.  Stringent anti-discrimination and ethnic quota
systems were put in place to ensure that neither group was frozen out of
power.  Regulations encouraging exogamy between the two groups and
sanctioning endogamy were put in place, with the result that within a
half-dozen generations one oculd speak no more of Vilani and Chinese, but
only of Maaliikaani.  The result was a society that seems to have remained
stable throughout the Long Night, and maintained a respectably high tech
level in the process.

	However, the result, while possibly appealing to extreme Chinese or
Vilani conservative social thinkers, was also a somewhat rigid, patriarchal
and authoritarian society.  Maaliikani government and justice are hardly
libertarian; government is headed by a figurehead First Official, and
administered by a hierarchy of fifteen ranks of Officials.  The First
Official is a hereditary and ceremonial post; the Fifteenth Rank of
Officials are neighbourhood-level headsmen.  Justice is administered by
specially assigned Twelfth Rank officials sitting as extremely powerful
judges/chiefs of police, and law enforcement is the responsibility of a
constabulary formed of Officials of the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Rank.
Accession and promotion to Office is done by a complex system based on
caste and examinations which remains to be studied.

	Within the extended family unit, the basic element of Maaliikaani
society, authority is likewise hiearchified, with authority descending from
the parents down to the children in order of birth.  Thus,
great-grandparents are greatly revered, while younger children have little
or no influence over household matters.

	Geographically, Maaliikaa is a water world.  Most human settlement
has taken place in the southern hemisphere, where several large shallow
areas, which would be mountain ranges and high plateaus were they not
submerged, and several small islands (the largest being 450 km^2) have
permitted the construction of several large permanent anchored structures
and large cities.  The islands are completely urbanized, with the exception
of one smaller one near the seat of government which serves as a Class F
spaceport.  20 large agglomerations of anchored and floating structures,
called stilt cities, constructed around ancient Vilani permanent anchored
oil extraction platforms, are dotted around the south pole within a circle
of approximately 30 degrees of latitude.  As well, numerous free-floating
habitats of various sizes and structures roam the oceans, and there are
numerous fishing and oil extraction stations dotted about the more
temperate regions of both hemispheres.

	Currently, Maaliikaa appears to have remained at TL-9 for some
centuries, with the exception of gravitics, which are rare if non-extant.
Several other planetary bodies in the Shugilli system are colonized, with
interplanetary travel based on fusion rocket and solar sail technology.
Ground-to-space travel from Maaliikaa is generally based on TL-9 AZHRAE
spaceplane transit.  Numerous types of transport aircraft, watercraft, and
submersibles are in use on the planet surface; Lift-Activator Disk
rotary-winged aircraft are particularly favoured, as they function
extremely well in Maaliikaa's dense atmosphere.  Given the planet's massive
hydrocarbon reserves, much propulsion technology is based on these fuels.
However, there are many relic and locally constructed fusion plants extant,
which reduce Maaliikaani consumption of their fossil fuel reserves.

	Militarily, Maaliikaa is relatively weak in terms of surface
forces; a small navy serves search-and-rescue and anti-piracy roles, and
the constabulary seems to serve as a reserve force supplementing the small
army.  It has been decades since any greater disturbance than minor rioting
has occurred.  Survey team reports have indicated the presence of what
appear to be TL-9 SDBs in the system, but their numbers and combat
effectiveness remain unknown.

Maalikaani Technology Sampler

Vehicles:


	The following represents a selection of vehicles which covert Scout
teams were able to examine closely.  It should be noted that aside from
these vehicles, a wide range of water craft (generally either multihulled
SWATH configurations or submersibles) is in use.  Vehicle manufacturing is
largely unregulated, and numerous models and variants of all common types
of TL-9 vehicles (with the notable exception of grav vehicles, which appear
to be unknown on Maaliikaa) are in service.


Shenduughash Ka Shing Aerial Conveyances Ruby Bird LAD

	The Ruby Bird is built by the aerospace manufacturer Shenduughash
Ka Shing Aerial Conveyances (SKSAC).  Its streamlined 140 displacement ton
slab-shaped hull is slung between 4 Lift Activator Disks mounted fore and
aft on either side of the hull, hung from short airfoil cross-section
reverse gull-winged wings.  The bulbous, glass-encased cockpit is slung low
and slightly forward, giving it a rather droopnosed appearance; aft the
hull tapers backward towards a Y-configuration vertical stabilizer.

	Twin passenger entry doors, mounted at mid-hull and opening onto
the back of the passenger compartment, allow access to the passenger
compartment.  The passenger areas are slightly roomier than is the norm for
comparable aircraft.  Emergency exit hatches are placed in the ceilings of
the cockpit and passenger compartments in case of ditching at sea (98.2% of
Maliikaa's surface is water).  A 16 m^3 cargo compartment, accessed by a
side-opening small cargo hatch, is emplaced aft of the passenger
compartment.  4 3.625 Mw MHD power plants are emplaced in the hull at the
base of the wing roots; fuel storage is along the underside of the hull.
Landing gear consist of 4 short retractable landing legs with sturdy pads.

10 Td, Max Takeoff weight 120 tons

Airframe: Fast Subsonic
Thrust: TL-9 LAD, 120 tons thrust
Power plant: TL-9 MHD Turbine 14.5 Mw 2.9 M^3/hr fuel
Controls: TL-9 computer linked
Crewstations: 3 crew cramped crewstations, 16 open passenger stations
Life support: Basic
Fuel: 10 hrs range
Cargo: 9 tons w/full passenger & fuel load

Weight:	74.85 tons
Thrust: 12 tons
Glide ratio: 0
G rating: 0.9
Speed: Max 320 kph.  Cruising speed: 240 kph.  NOE speed: 40 kph
Combat move: 111.2 outdoor squares/turn
Agility: 6
Storage volume: 7,200 M^3
Endurance: 13.33 hrs
Range: 3199
Price: 6.54 Mcr


Rampant Phoenix HTOHL AZHRAE Orbiter.

	Built by AgnaashKa Li, another aerospace manufacturer, the Rampant
Pheonix is a typical tri-mode (turbojet/ramjet/rocket) AZHRAE spaceplane of
a configuration found across the Imperium at similar tech levels.  However,
its payload and passenger capacity is somewhat lower than the norm due to
Maaliikaa's dense atmosphere and high gravity.  These factors also force an
inflight refuelling prior to switching into ramjet mode.

Max Takeoff weight 2200 tons

Airframe: Hypersonic
Thrust1: TL-8 AZHRAE, 1008/1680/2520 tons thrust 504/3360/11340 M^3/Hr
Power plant: TL-7 fuel cell 1 MW
Controls: TL-9 computer linked
Crewstations: 3 crew cramped crewstations, 8 cramped passenger stations
Life support: Basic
Fuel: 850 tons HCD (850 M^3), 400 tons HRF (1334)
Cargo:

Length: approx 50 m.
Weight:	2200 tons clean
Thrust: 1008/1680/2520 tons
Glide ratio: 5
G rating: 0.45/0.76/1.87
Max speed: 1575/3465/4544
Min speed: 175
Crusing Speed: 1181
Takeoff-roll: 4560 meters
Landing roll: 4724 meters
Combat move: 219 outdoor squares/turn
Travel move: 4724
Agility: 7
Storage volume: 132000 M^3
Endurance: 111 mins turbojet mode only, plus 7 minutes more if rocket mode
is used.
Range: 2646 (but see below)
Price: 362 Mcr


Shenduughash Ka Shing Aerial Conveyances Silver Cloud Transport Airship

	The Silver Cloud is quite possibly the largest lighter-than-air
craft ever built on a human-occupied world.  A truly gigantic
airfoil-envelope, turbofan propelled airship, it has a wingspan of 700
meters, and its gondola, running the length of the craft's keel, is 110
meters long. It derives 5,000 tons of lift from the envelope; its airfoil
configuration permits it to lift 9,000 tons at a takeoff speed of 40 kph.
Propulsion consists of 40 turbofans rated at 5.8 tons of thrust apiece,
slung along the underside of the envelope.  Gimballed mountings permit VTOL
takeoff even when loaded over its envelope lift capability.

	It has fuel capacity for 60 hours flight at full consumption,
giving it a range of 13,500 kilometers.  It carries a flight deck crew of
12 (sitting in 8-hour watches in the 4 flight deck crewstations), 595
passengers, and 50 stewards.  It is able to deadlift 1,770 tons of cargo,
5,770 in airfoil mode.  Aside from the 300 small staterooms and 50 large
staterooms, it also has 200 displacement tons dedicated to lounges, dining
rooms, and recreation facilities.  It also has a 10-workstation engineering
space and is significantly overpowered, rendering it more easily piloted in
the high winds frequently encountered on Maaliikaa.

	It is generally used as a bulk cargo and passenger hauler
(all-passenger versions are in service) for connecting far-flung outposts
with greater speed than by submersible.  Its range can be significantly
extended by exploiting favourable winds; as Maaliikaa has a singularly deep
atmosphere, with rather complex, multilayered wind dynamics, in some
circumstances when operating in deadlift mode pilots are able to fly
unpowered for great distances.


625,000 Td, Max Takeoff weight 9000 tons

Airframe: Simple
Thrust: TL-7 turbofans, 40 5.77 tons thrust units.
Power plant: TL-9 MHD Turbine 4 Mw
Controls: TL-9 computer linked
Workstations: 4 crew flight deck stations, 10 engineering workstations
Passenger accomodations: 300 small staterooms (double occupancy), 50 large
staterooms, 5,600 M^3 recreation/lounge.
Life support: extended.
Fuel: 60 hrs range
Cargo: 1,770 tons deadlift, 5,770 with takeoff.

Weight: 6,980 tons clean
Thrust: 900 tons
Glide ratio: N/A
G rating: 0.12 clean, 0.1 deadlift, 0.07 airfoil
Speed: Max 300 kph.  Cruising speed: 225 kph.  Min speed (airfoil mode): 40 kph
Combat move: 41 outdoor squares/turn
Agility: 4
Volume: 625,000 M^3
Endurance: 60 hrs
Range: 1,3500
Price: 1,675 Mcr


Diguushuda Wan Tai Submersibles Muukaash-class submersible rover

	Named after a local species of bottom feeder, the Muukash is a
rather unusual aquatic rover, designed for operations in conditions where
surface or submersible operations are rendered difficult by heavy
concetrations Juumigash, or around the bases of stilt cities.  Apparently,
several variants are in service.  A boxy 10td tracked submersible vehicle,
it has cramped accomodations for 8 passengers in the form of eight folding
bunks, four passenger seats, four seats in the control compartment,
extremely compact kitchen and sanitary facilities, and 12 cubic meters of
lving space, variously configured.  15 cubic meters are provided for lab or
survey equipment.  It has two airlocks and 34 cubic meters of cargo space.
Provision is made for the mounting of remote controlled manipulator arms.
It is powered by a small TL-8 10Mw fission power plant.  Its tracks can
propel it at speeds of up to 99 kph on land (underwater performance specs
are unknown but estimated to be in the neighbourhood of 30 kph) and a set
of propellors serves as a secondary propulsion system capable of moving it
at 15 kph.  It has an armour rating of 9 throughout.  Price is 8.47 local
credits.




Weapons:

	Maaliikaani firearms design philosophy is unusual in that it tends
largely towards flechette ammuntion.  Whether this is for cultural reasons
or due to local reasons (such as dangerous life forms particularly
vulnerable to flechette rounds) is unknown.  However, the Maaliikaani Armed
Forces seem to be turning towards conventional slug rounds.  Despite their
previous ACR-equivalent's (a flechette carbine; see below) arguable
superiority over their current ACR, it has been replaced by a rather
unusual, and extremely heavy slug thrower/grenade launcher.  As well, their
current service sidearm is likewise a heavy semiautomatic slugthrower,
quite unlike the light, auto/burst fire police flechette sidearm.  Whether
this trend is due to a paradigm shift in weapons design, response to an as
of yet unknown threat, or simply due to corrupt procurement practices is as
of yet unknown.

	As Maaliikaa's Law Level is extremely high, and private possession
of armaments is highly illegal, it is unlikely that a significant number of
other weapons are being produced on-planet.



Name: 			Maaliikaani Armed Forces 5mm Heavy ACR/GL.
Damage (Rifle): 	4.
Damage (GL):		5* explosive.
TL: 			9.
Range (Rifle):		Short (42.33 m).
Range (GL):		Direct Fire: Short (23.7 m).
Shots (Rifle):		52.
Shots (GL):		7
Mass (empty):		11,47 Kg.
Mass (loaded):		16.57 Kg.
Reloads (Rifle):	1.04 Kg.
Reloads (GL):		3.694 Kg.
Price:			11,614 Cr.

Reload price (Rifle):	33.42 Cr.
Reload price (GL):	369.32 Cr.

	This recently procured design, a conventionally configured heavy
ACR with a rotary-magazine grenade launcher slung under the barrel, has
replaced the arguably superior M.A.F. 10mm Flechette Carbine.  It is
notable for, among other things, the absence of sights and its construction
out of entirely TL-8 advanced materials.


Name: 		Maaliikaani Armed Forces 10mm Flechette Carbine.
Damage:		3 (special; treated as 1 die greater against flex armour).
TL: 		8.
Range:		Medium (50 m).
Shots:		50.
Mass (empty):	3.43 Kg.
Mass (loaded):	5.34 Kg.
Reloads:	2.6 Kg.
Price:		1,546 Cr.

	A simple and lightweight bullpup flechette carbine, 94 cm long,
firing the same round as the Flechette SMG, below.  Is equipped with a
telescopic sight.


Name: 		Maaliikaani Armed Forces 10mm Flechette SMG
Damage: 	2.5 (special; treated as 1 die greater against flex armour).
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		32.
Mass (empty):	2.75 Kg.
Reloads:	1.7 Kg.
Price:		370 Cr.

Reload price:	249.85

	A small (67.5 cm), simple, mass-produced blued-steel SMG.  Devoid
of stocks, it has a pistolgrip and drum magazine.  A large barrel shroud
covers the barrel, suppressor, and flash hider.


Name: 		Maaliikaani Armed Forces Service Sidearm
Damage: 	3.5.
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		12.
Mass (empty):	2.6 Kg.
Reloads:	0.75 Kg.
Price:		3,364 Cr.

	A high-tech (TL-8 advanced materials), high powered service sidearm
that has recently supplanted its TL-6 precursor.  A large auto pistol
firing 11mm slugs, with an optic sight.  Atypical in that it does not fire
flechettes.


Name: 		Maaliikaa Constabulary Service Service Sidearm.
Damage: 	1.5 (house rule special: treated as 1 die higher against
flex armour).
TL: 		9.
Range:		Very Short.
Shots:		35.
Mass (empty):	1 Kg.
Reloads:	0.141 Kg.
Price:		1,215 Cr.

	A small (16cm long) TL-9 pistol, constructed entirely out of TL-8
advanced materials, that fires 4mm caseless flechettes.  It is capable of
single-shot, burst-of-5, or full auto fire.  It has a 35-round magazine
capacity.  Full-auto recoil is powerful.


Name: 		Maaliikaa Constabulary SWAT Carbine.
Damage: 	2 (house rule special: treated as 1 die higher against flex
armour).
TL: 		9.
Range:		Short.
Shots:		50.
Mass (loaded):	2.988 Kg.
Reloads:	0.588 Kg.
Price:		425 Cr.

	A longish (90 cm) bullpup carbine carried by Maaliikaani
Constables.  Firing the same round as the Maaliikaani Constabulary Service
Sidearm, it is typically fitted with TL-9 optic sights and a 50-round
magazine.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:29:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

In mail you write:

>     But it's the focused mirror idea that's got me a bit stuck.  Her
> plan, barring violations of the laws of physics OC, is to use a
> couple to catch the local sunlight and focus it through the fabric
> and into the hot air interior.  Her reasoning being that if you can
> use focused sunlight to cook food.  You can both she and I have seen
> it done before.  Then you can use it to heat air in an enclosed
> space.  Perhaps even superheat it to 200 or 300+ over the air
> surrounding the balloon for greater lift.

First problem... Unless the fabric is transparent, it'll absorb most of
the light that hits it. So you'll be heating the fabric. And possibly
damaging it.

Second problem. The air *is* transparent, and thus will absorb very,
very little heat from the focussed light.

So the problem is that to heat something with focused sunlight, it has
to be opaque, and preferrably dark colored. And it'll have to transfer
the heat to the air by conduction and radiation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:07:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: black globes

In mail you write:

>>   But 'High Guard' states that a incoming <in-jumping> squadrons using
>>black globe generators will achive surprise < NOT be detected >, for
>>the first round.   This inplys that either...
>>        <A>. operating black globes damppen out a grav signiature.
>>  or... <B>. the gravity wave is not as large as you suggest.
>
> how about
>
> <C> Grav sensors don't have the resolution of AEMS sensors so, while you
> can detect that a ship jumped in, you can't detect where it is.

Specifically, the angular resolution of the sensors is poor. You can
detect the pulse at long ranges, but can't determine the direction it
came from closer than a few seconds of arc. Since the ship jumping in
(or out) only creates a single pulse, there's no chance to refine the
reading. You have to attempt to triangulate based on the readings from
sensors spread across the system. 

And with any reasonable amount of traffic, triangulation won't always
be easy. Does pulse 18458 at station AXC match up with pulse 16759 or
16760 at station BCD?

Ships that jump in at odd locations will be easier to spot, but harder
to localize. Ones that jump in never the 100 diameter limit can get
lost in the noise.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:16:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: black globes

In mail you write:

> It is easy to pinpoint an injumping ships location by stationing several
> mass detectors in the system and triangulating when the gravity wave hits
> each sensor. Then they'll know where the ship jumped in but not where it is
> going as it's normal sigs will not be detectable at AU+ distances.
> Pretty cool think I: Most systems with good starports and all with
> scoutbases/naval bases will have massdetector ships/stations spread out
> throughout the system (maybe 5 or 6) that will monitor traffic. The
> amplitude of the gravity wave will tell you what displacement the ship has
> and the wave shape its J-nbr.
>
> "This is m-station Theta reporting an injumping ship in the 5000 tonne
> range with J2 exiting near gasgiant Boote-Kalidor. Send a couple of
> Gazelles to check it out. Coordinates and profiles follows in the message
> trailer"

Nope. A single station can only report: Gravity pulse of magnitude XXX
at bearing YYY by ZZZ. Time hack TTT.TTTTT. Remember, the pulse obeys
the inverse square law. So a 100 ton ship at 1 AU gives the same pulse
strength as a 400 ton at 2 AU.

You have to take the readings from all the stations and try to match up
the vectors. Which includes allowing for lightspeed lag due to
differing distances from the source.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1692
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1693



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Spacefaring nations and economics
Re: Load-lifting, etc.
Just Say 'No' to Bio Warfare (was: Mesoamerican casualty rates)
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: Mesoamerican casualty rates
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: RoM/Terran TL
Re : Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg
Re: M: E21
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1687
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1689
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1689

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:54:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spacefaring nations and economics

In mail you write:

>> Milieu E21 should reflect these sort of factors either in
>> (a) countries with good launch sites having involvement in Space
>> (b) conflict between nations over good launch sites.
>> E21 could see major conflict between Australia and Indonesia for the
>> launch facilities on the Northern portion of the Australian continent.
>
> The advantage of an equatorial launch site is marginal. The additional
> launch velocity from planetary rotation is only a few dozen km/s, which a 1
> G drive can match in seconds.

It's one thousand miles per *hour* (24,000 mile equatorial
circumference divided by 24 hours) or 450 m/sec. The boost from
launching with the earth's *orbital* velocity around the sun is about
30 km/sec.

At 1 g it takes 46 seconds to reach 450 m/sec. It takes 51 minutes to
reach 30 km/sec.

> Launch sites will be located wherever
> convenient for passengers and industries. Equatorial launch sites are only
> useful for beanpoles or space elevators, which become economically unviable
> after the invention of HEPlaR at TL 10.

The equator is also useful for Launch Loops, and various rotating
tether designs. Once built, these will stay economical. It's still
going to be cheaper to pay for the electricity used in a launch loop
than for the fuel used in a 1 g drive. And the tethers don't use power
at all! 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:29:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Load-lifting, etc.

In mail you write:

>   In all seriousness, would the U.S. _not_ have a major spaceport
> capacity in the lower 48? Would they rely on Mexico, Panama, or
> Ecuador, if the country in getting weren't a satellite or willing
> to grant extra-territoriality?

Well, G.Harry Stine did some figuring based on where the space(land)
and resources were, as well as where likely destinations for
fractional-orbit shuttles would be ("Great Circles and Spaceships, or,
Where is the Center of the World", Analog, May 1995). And the American
Southwest is a strong candidate.

For space launches that can use the advantages of being near the
equator, Hawaii isn't bad. And the US *does* own islnds (like Palmyra
atoll) that are even closer to the equator.

>   The UN Law of the Sea (unratified by U.S. still?) would still
> allow any company to mine/exploit/use international seabed, and
> ship the product home, or sell on the free market. That is, the
> Indonesians are probably still screwed, but the US and Japan are
> quite well looked after [Canada too :) ].

The US was stupid enough to sign that one. Space enthusiasts managed to
keep us from repeating the mistake with the treaty about the Moon and
planets. 

The big roadblock with the Law of the Sea treaty is that you cannot
*own* a chunk of seabed. So is you find a rich deposit, somebody else
can walk right in and start mining. Also, the language in the treaty
that says the resources on the seafloor belong to *all* nations just
about guarantees that your seafloor production could get severely
"taxed" for the benefit of third world countries.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:16:58 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Just Say 'No' to Bio Warfare (was: Mesoamerican casualty rates)

Glenn Crawford writes:
>Believe it or not, the casualty rate was as high as 90% in some areas.

   True enough.  Some of the Spanish missionaries accompanying the
expeditions across the Americas reported the disappearance of whole
communities of Native-Americans due to disease.  Total casualty rates
from the pandemic for the Americas as a whole vary from 25% to 33%.  How
many billion people would 1 in 4 Vilani be at the time of the
Interstellar Wars?

>On the other hand, the Vilani might be carriers of nasty diseases too!
>They had domestic animals, but they may be non-compatible with human 
>genetics (much like humans cannot get certain animal diseases and vice 
>versa)

   Should the Terrans engage in biological warfare, I'm sure the Vilani
would be able respond in kind.  Bugs that have DNA structures we can't
begin to figure out that like to wreak havoc on humans just as well as
alien life forms.  While bio agents would be tempting for the Terrans to
use, the retaliation they would suffer won't be worth it.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:50:23 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

SD Mooney writes: 

>>   How do we know that 'jump drive' isn't the name the Terrans came up
>>with?  If I remember the Traveller canon material correctly, there was
>>no one person responsible for its development.
>
>But a more proprietary name would add to the flavour... may be even a
>company name?

   Except that jump drive was developed by UNESCO, and then licensed to
the various nation governments.

>Yes - SAAB was good on the ideas, and the effects weren't bad.. sort of a
>soft 2300..! ;-)

   Probably one of the most Traveller-like (especially TNE) series ever
made.  I kept expecting to see Hivers in a scene, but none appeared
(which of course means nothing when you are talking about Hivers, since
they are masters of hiding behind the scenes...).

>>   I disagree here.  While that may be the propaganda used on the
>>masses, the "powers that be" have known since the 2040s that the Vilani
>>are out there.  This creates an atmosphere of in which the PCs are never
>>quite sure if they know the whole truth.  S:AAB did an excellent job of
>>presenting this kind of feel.
>
>But the players are part of the masses with this arrogance? I'm not
>disputing knowledge held with the 'PTB'.

   If I were writing the material, there would be a discussion of what
the 'PTB' really know in the Referee's Section, and eventually a
campaign (a set of three scenarios) in which the PCs stumble upon the
truth.  At that point they have to decide whether to keep it quiet, or
go public, knowing that if they do so they stand a chance of not being
believed and being subjected to imprisionment or institutionalization
("Poor guy thinks he saw an alien spacecraft with a human crew.  Next
he'll tell us one of the humans was Elvis Presley.").

   "Those are not intelligent radio signals emminating from Barnard's
Star.  You are mistaken.  Have a nice day."

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:23:00 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

On 14 Aug 97 at 18:24, SD Mooney wrote:

> Yes - SAAB was good on the ideas, and the effects weren't bad.. sort
> of a soft 2300..! ;-)

	"Stay alert! Watch your six! Don'w watch S:AAB"
				- A badge seen at the SF club office
				  when making preparations for FinnCon 97


/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:58:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mesoamerican casualty rates

Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com> wrote:

> Believe it or not, the casualty rate was as high as 90% in some areas. And
> they are from the same planet! The crowding in the mexica empire region 
> was a disease waiting to happen, but the poor devils never domesticated 
> large herbivores (ie cows and pigs). They got the Europeans' diseases 
> instead, and with little or no resistance, died in droves. The Incas 
> suffered less in terms of disease, due in part to their cooler climate 
> and higher altitude, but also due to  the fact that they had some 
> similiar diseases from Llamas and Alpacas. They had just as many people 
> get sick but much lower death rates.

Actually, some of the Inca subjects who were in less densely populated
areas suffered less, but in the main Inca areas the death rate was 11 out
of 12 people after 70 years.  Of course, much of this was due to lowered
disease resistance and out-right murder by the Spanish.  One interesting
fact is that the Inca empire was actually inherently much more stable than
the Aztecs.  The few Spanish who invaded would not normally have been able
to conquer them.  However, a few years before the Spanish arrived there
smallpox and other diseases had been brought down from the north, and
almost 50% of the Inca population was already dead by the time the Spanish
arrived.  At this point the resulting social chaos made a Spanish victory
easy. 

I'd imagine that the Solomani victory would be similar.  In many cases, a
Solomani fleet jumps in expecting a battle with the fleet of a populous
industrial world and find a world with 50%+ mortality who desperately need
medical supplies and will happily surrender to anyone with doctors. 

That would be a pretty grim era to game...   


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
- -Anthropologist and free-lance game designer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:06:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote

>Yes you can use focused sunlight to cook meals. However, most solar
>cookers I have seen use the greenhouse priciple to heat the interior, a
>clear glass top to admit the light and black interior to absorb the
>sunlight and re-radiate it as heat.

>The problem with doing this for a HA balloon, is that while the efficiency
>of this device is reasonably good, the practical numbers of BTU's you need
>to dump into a balloon envelope, particularly a TL-3 one, is far too high
>to get off of small focussed pmirrors. You would need a BIG mirror to do
>this. Watch a RL HA balloon sometime...that's a honking _big_ propane
>burner they're firing up to keep it flying. to lift four people and their
>stuff, along with your fuel supply and gondola requires a big evelope, and
>that's a LOT of air to heat up.

Actually I've seen articles on solar powered balloons in Popular Science
Magazine.  They work and the they exist, no mirrors needed.  The most
efficient design uses a double balloon envelope, the outer one is
transparent, the inner one is black and there is a good deal of space
between them.  The other design is tetrahedral (flat face upward) and all
black.  The second is simpler but less efficient.  Both work, but both
need 1.5 (for the first) to 2 (for the second) as much balloon volume per
kilogram lifted.  These designs have actually been built and used. 

Enjoy-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
- -Appropraite technology geek

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:34:34 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

> How about focused mirrors?  I remember back in the Boy Scouts using mildly
> concave mirrors to start fires by focusing the sun's energy.  So is it possible
> to convey that heat energy across a fabric which is containing the Hot Air?

My previous explanation was too brief.  Using mirrors or lenses will allow you to 
concentrate the sunlight energy onto a small area, but does not increase the 
total energy at all.  A balloon 15 m in diameter will absorb a lot of sunlight 
energy ... similar to that collected by a 15 m diameter mirror.  The mirror 
allows you to focus the energy onto a small region (and so allow you to cook a 
steak or ten in that small region).  Focussing sunlight into the balloon will not 
give you the effect you want - only a very small region is heated up, and this 
hot air will quickly mix with the rest of the air in the balloon.  Now, if you 
had a volcanoe-crater sized mirror, you could fly the balloon, but how are you 
going to keep this mirror pointed at the baloon when it flies 500 m away?

So, the laws of physics tell me that simple mirror-heating will not lift the 
balloon.  To take another analogy, using a magnifying glass you can burn a tiny 
spot on your hand (foolish, I know), but it does not cause your entire body to 
burn up!  Using mirrors to focus sunlight will heat up a tiny portion of the 
balloon - but far too little to lift the balloon.  On the other hand, if I had a 
large solar furnace (with a veritable farm of mirrors stetched over the desert), 
I can focus them into a spot that will neatly melt a block of metal (or burn a 
man) ... this was used in some film or other (a James Bond movie?).


I do not know what resources the characters have, so I cannot come up with a 
solution to their dilema.  One thing that came to mind was filling the ballon 
with 100's of sheeps stomachs filled with hydrogen (from the life raft fuel or 
from electolysis of water using the power from the life raft's juty-rigged power 
plant).  Of course, the hydrogen will be slowly leaking out, so they had better 
find some friendlier natives PDQ.


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:40:51 PDT
From: Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: RoM/Terran TL

 lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney) sent:

> 
> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:44:17 -0700 (DIGEST #1501)
> Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL
> >
> >Leroy-
> >
> >[snippish biggish]
> >
> >(BTW:  Terra was at TL 13 when invaded by the Imperium at the end of the
> >Solomani Rim War, it only reached TL 15 under the Imperial Miltary
> >Government [sources: Azhanti High Lightning (game), Invasion: Earth (game)])
> >
> >Douglas E. Berry
[Snippius Magnus]

I looked through the counters of Invasion:Earth, The Solomani have ground forces 
ranging from TL-14 to 11, the Imperials from TL-14 to 13, so it would be reasonable 
to assume that Terra, as capital of the Confederation would have been at TL-14 - 15 
at the time of the attack.

As a side note, one of the Solomani Army counters is labeled 'Ihathi' (sp?) - Aslan 
fighting for Solomani - amazing what those furballs will do for land!

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:44:27 -0400
From: Andy Brick <exeus@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re : Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg

Hi All,

Garry Ward wrote -

> A magnetically confined plasma is a good analogy to what I view Jump
effect
> to like. Electron tunnelling, however, is a particle effect, not an ato=
m
> level effect.

2300AD canon has established that you can get atoms to tunnel, and that the only
reason why this was not discovered by earlier physicists was that the effect is
adversely affected by gravitational fields. In other words, we had to break free
of the Earth and get into space in order to discover the Jerome effect.

My understanding is that electrons are small emough to fall through "holes" in =
space time and hence instantaneously tunnel from one place to another. It=is
my belief that all ( ! )  a stutterwarp drive does is provide a field that =

- -

(a) expands these holes in space time to accept atoms, molecules, whatever
(b) aligns the holes rather like iron filings in a magnetic field to ensure
everything arrives at the same place.

The (a) part may be unnecessary - the holes may simply be big enough in the
absence of a gravitational field. =


> If you want to use a particle effect to move a ship, you would
> have to induce all of the particles to co ordinate the same effect in t=
he
> same direction at the same time. Our old friend Heisenberg is back.

I can coordinate many particles inside a magnetic field to align and move=

simultaneously, and I have not violated Heisenberg to do so. I can force
many electrons to flow down a copper wire at the same time without
violating Heisenberg. Both of these are particle effects on the macroscop=
ic
scale, and Heisenberg does not preclude them. Heisenberg prevents
me tracking every single particle in the field/wire - and I do not need t=
o =

know this information to displace the particles to another location.

Same with Stutterwarp in 2300AD. There you can induce a whole ship to
move when placed in a field. I suspect that Heisenberg doesn't matter the=
re
either - I align the "holes" in space time by placing them in a strong
enough
field, and the ship then "topples" through the holes to the destination.

> I have
> not heard of proton, neutron or atom tunnelling. =


In real life, you are correct. However, just like J-space =

is accepted Traveller canon, atom tunnelling is accepted
2300AD canon. Dr. Jerome, the inventor of the stutterwarp =

drive, managed to induce a hydrogen atom to jump. This =

is 2300AD's only real deviation from the current =

understanding of physics.

> A magnetic bottle, like a
> gravitational bottle, bounds a space, and effects all objects within th=
at
> space equally.

Actually, a magnetic ( or any other field ) does not affect everything
equally. Sure,
there are equipotential contours within the field, but the field itself
varies with distance
from the source.

> The same as I view the effect of an active Jump Drive. So the
> analogy for Stutter Warp is electron tunnelling, the implementation is
> different.

It's not the analogy, it's the explanation. Stutterwarp uses the electron=

tunnelling
effect, scaled up.

> Like flying; birds fly, 747s fly (generally), implementation is
> vastly different.

But the laws that govern flight are universal. Both the bird and the 747
have to obey the laws of aerodynamics, and must generate lift etc. And th=
e
implementation is actually not that different - both have aerofoils, both=

are streamlined to minimize drag, both have tailplanes to provide better
control and so on. Yes, the 747 has jet engines and a bird uses muscle
power, but even these are merely different thrust agents.

> This gives me a comfortable feel in explaining how Jump works; others m=
ay
be
> able to percieve the standalone, existant space concept better. In fact=
,
the
> recent thread on Jump Space being an Ancient Artifact fits rather well
with
> my idea of Jump Effect being derived from gravity's ability to create
pocket
> universes. =


This whole pocket universe thing is flawed in my opinion. To create a
pocket =

universe you need to exclude it from normal space time. As far as I know,=

the
only thing in nature that achieves this is a black hole, and I for one
would not
like to travel through one of these. =


Now I don't know what TL 27 + Gravitics tech can do, but creating black
holes
artificially seems a little extreme to me. =


> This Ancient Artifact Jump Space would be various Pocket
> Universes, like the one in Secret of the Ancients, created to shorten
> distance between two points in real space. =


I seriously doubt that Yaskoydray would have had the ability to create ma=
ny
pocket universes, and in any case he certainly would not have had the
ability
to do so to start with. Also, Traveller Canon suggests that he created on=
ly
two or so =

pocket universes - one in the Regina system, and one elsewhere about the
Droyne homeworld. The sheer energy required to achieve this effect must
have
been incredible, and I doubt that Grandfather would have had the resource=
s
to build a pocket universe to order for every single jump route in known
space.
Also, would this mean that jump drives only work in areas visited by the
Ancients ?
If so, one would expect Jump Drives to fail once beyond the borders of th=
e
old Ancient domain. The Zhodani Core Expeditions may have been a non
starter if they had not followed the Ancient routes to the Core, if this
was the case.

> Lhyd fuel expended is actually to
> feed the power system maintaing the pocket universe the ship traversing=
,
the
> different Jump distances, 1 thru 6,  represent progressively smaller
pocket
> universes. =


A pocket universe depends on the small power output from a Jump Drive ? S=
o
why didn't they all collapse during the Long Night when interstellar trav=
el
was
next to non-existent ? Or during the Virus Era when only vampire fleets
would
be using them ? Are saying that infrequently used jump routes will
eventually
become unusable if jump equipped ships don't travel along them ?

> The 2d maps are due to the fact that actual position in real
> space has no relationship to where the system intersects the pocket
> universe. =


Hmm. I admit that I do not like the 2D maps of Traveller, but then it's
a necessary abstraction of reality to make the game playable, rather
than to fit in with some theory of Jump Drive.

> Gives Han Solo's claim 'to having made the Kessel run in less than
> 6 parsecs' a different meaning: he found a pocket universe path to Kess=
el
> that was shorter that the normal 6 parsec path.

The "Kessel run" quote is simply a classic example of sci-fi getting =

science wrong - the parsec is a unit of distance, and was used =
by George Lucas as a unit of speed. There are other examples
of such things in Star Wars ( X-Wings perform tight acrobatic
manouevres in space, but there is no air to push against to do this
,etc. , etc. )

> I haven't chucked out the published history of Traveller; just giving i=
t
my
> own reading that makes it easier for me to work with.

There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone interprets Traveller as they
see it, and there's no reason why my view of FTL travel should be any
more correct than anyone elses, including yours. FTL is science fiction,
not science fact, and so the discussion is largely moot anyhow.

Andy Brick
exeus@compuserve.com
http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:13:17 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: M: E21

- -> *how* do you pronounce Bayer?  ;-> Is it pronounced bA-er, bE-er or bI-er
Hmm: Bavarian?

I'd think i'd be pronounced Bah-jer. (If i got my American phonetics 
right)

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:47:06 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phil McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1687

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:43:00 -0400, you wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Phil McGregor wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:04:43 -0400, you wrote:
>>=20
>> >On 08/13/97 at 11:33 PM,  Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
>> ><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:
>> >
>
>Snip of good analysis of disease patterns and rates
>=20
>> So, we drop the Flu on a typical high-tech Vilani world with 2 Billion
>> people and kill 20 million. A public health disaster, but not one
>> likely to cause societal breakdown!
>
>FIrstly, the Spanish flu, and the Black Death, even were both handled by
>people with some clue to the germ theory of disease...people were
>quarantined, and the highest infection rates were in areas where lots of
>people lived in close proximity...sort of like the Vilani way of =
communal
>living. I'm not sure that the Vilani have all that developed a system =
for
>infectious disease, particularly as harsh (to them) a treatment as
>quarantine.

Well, actually, no. The people who suffered from the Black Death did
*not* have a good understanding of the germ theory of disease. I don't
know whether its in "Plagues & Peoples" or not, but evidently the germ
theory really didn't become accepted until well after the development
of the microscope! People saw all the little "animalicules" and never
made the connection ... and for a lot of diseases, the obvious
quarantine method of isolation for a specified period of time do not
work ... as the incubation period varies a lot, and for many diseases
the person can be a carrier (infectious) all the time and yet never
get sick.

As I recall, the final "proof" of the connection between dirt, filth,
germs and disease was basically statistical ... surveys of Choler
outbreaks in London and Germany that were plotted on maps according to
where the water was drawn.

Given that the Vilani have computers, there seems some likelihood that
they would be able to figure things out reasonably quickly.

>Secondly, you don't need high death rates to make a disease an important
>factor in warfare...all you need is to incapacitate enough people, by
>making them sick, making them care for the sick, or making them do the
>jobs of 5 or 6 people who are sick or caring for the sick to make
>everything collapse. Not a fall down go boom kinda collapse, but it is
>a distinct military advantage to have. Arranging a garbage strike two
>weeks in advance of an attack will accomplish the same thing, in a =
highly
>populated area.

And the problem here is, again, the rate of infection, not the rate of
death (or, indeed, the percentage exposed who actually get sick). Even
something like Bubonic plague is not 100% transmissible ... Influenza
and Pnuemonic Plague, both transmitted by aerosol means, would be
widely transmitted ... but the statistical methods above mean that the
Vilani would soon pick up on this ... seeing how it was transmitted in
a sealed environment.

And the Vilani have *some* germs ... even if only the e coli and the
like in their gut. Some of those -- and the other "minor" human races
they contacted in the times before First Contact with the would have
certainly (on a statistical basis) have found *something*
objectionable about each other's germs ... so they should have some
experience in the AAB at least, to fall back on.

Phil
- -----------------------------------------
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Co-Author, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:51:27 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phil McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1689

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:14:50 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:40:37 -0400
>From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
>Subject: Mesoamerican casualty rates

>On the other hand, the Vilani might be carriers of nasty diseases too! =
They
>had domestic animals, but they may be non-compatible with human genetics
>(much like humans cannot get certain animal diseases and vice versa)

Interesting thought ... what about "prions" ... the little beasties
that cause Creutzfeld-Jakob disease (aka "Mad Cow Disease" or
"Scrapie"). As I understand it, they aren't even really a disease ...
just some protein molecules that do the damage. It seems reasonably
likely that there would eventually be some sort of crossover in Vilani
herd beasts ... and, in any case, Vilani economics surely mean that
they would have developed the Germ Theory of disease for their herd
beasts -- that is, keeping them alive when some of their native
diseases hit *them* even if they did not affect the Vilani.

So it seems that they would have the idea of quarantine at least.

Phil
- -----------------------------------------
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Co-Author, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:55:05 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phil McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1689

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:14:50 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 16:52:34 -0500
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Subject: Vilani and the common cold
>
>Phil,=20
>
>I respectfully disagree with you.  The difference is the Vilani are =
300,000
>years removed from Terran organisms. They won't have developed *any* =
kind
>of immunities to earthly diseases.  The infection rate would be *much*
>higher than in the a general population here (even an isolated one) and =
the
>effects on those infected would be much worse.=20

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't think its as certain as you think -- it
is just as likely, for example, that the Vilani will be different
enough from Terran stock to prove most unpalatable to Terran diseases
.... in other words, it seems just as likely that the Vilani would be
immune.

If *I'm* making assumptions (and I admit I am), please recognise the
ones that are being made by those on "your" side as well! Fair's fair.

Then, of course, the reverse is true. Even the "benign" e coli in a
Vilani gut *could* be lethal to a Terran.

Phil
- -----------------------------------------
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Co-Author, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1693
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1694



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...
Re: M21 SFN
Re: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?
Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft
Vilani, Humanity & E. Coli
RE:Femicide
RE:T41 Skills Draft A Armorer
RE:Clever Player, DRAT!
RE:T41 Skills Draft B Blade Co
Re: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Jump Drives
Biowar and the Terrans
Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft
Re: RoM/Terran TL
T41 Skills Draft C Carousing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:55:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Wendelstein? And 21st c. Terran technology, Vilani psychology, ...

In mail you write:

> Experts in the field still can't say conclusively that one shape is better
> than onother.  ITER will, however, be a Tokamak, and that is the best
> studied shape.  All the shapes represent tradeoffs of one kind or another,
> so it may be that they are all realtively likely to be the "right" shape
> for a fusion reactor.

I vaguely recall reading (many years back) that it appeared that the
instabilities in the early "magnetic mirror" and toroidal reactors
would be controllable *if* we could afford to build them big enough (I
recall a figure along the lines of 10 or 12 km for the magnetic mirror,
and something similarly oversized for the toroid). Anybody know if this
is just a science writer misunderstanding, or if it's actually based on
real projections?

I've played around with the idea of a planet coming out of the Long
Night and re-inventing fusion this way. They build an asteroid hulled
ship around the magnetic mirror reactor (all 12 km long by a good
fraction of a km wide). Waste plasma is used as a fusion rocket drive.
It can also generate some pretty hellacious particle beams. It was
originally built to process asteroids by cutting them up into
"manageable" chunks (ie a few hundred meters on a side) and feeding the
chunks into a side reactor where they get turned into plasma and the
elements seperated in what amounts to an overgrown mass spectrograph.

Picture the Imperials encountering *that* system. Or a Pocket Empire
deciding to raid the "low tech" culture. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:42:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M21 SFN

In mail you write:

> Rob spaketh nations that have spacefaring ability
>
> Argentina-maybe
> Australia-in cooperation, maybe

Australia already *has* space capability. They havde launched
satellites on their own rockets.

> Brazil-good chance, but pretty pitiful

Brazil is a major industrial country, and growing fast.

> China-fair chance, but maybe only near orbit

They can already do launches to geosynch orbit.

> India-slight chance, higher in a cooperative effort

India has launched their own satellites on their own boosters. (Note,
must nuclear powers and "suspected" nuclear powers do this. It's a way
of saying that you have ICBMs without being blatant about it. Anything
that can launch a satellite will work as an ICBM with merely some
re-targetting) 

> Indonesia-in cooperation with China, Japan or India, maybe, no chance on own

I don't know a lot about Inonesia, but as far as industrial capacity
goes, they should be able to do it.

> Japan-very good

Japan has a space program, with a fair number of satellite launches and
eventual plans for manned launches. They are even working on a scaled
down version of the Shuttle (the only reason *ours* is so big is
because the military insisted).

> Korea-on their own, no. with Japan, good chance

South Korea is another up and coming industrial nation.

> Zaire-okay, you defintely are kidding

There were attempts to set up a commercial launch site in Zaire back in
the 70s & 80s, and it's speculated that the Cuban forces invading the
country were mostly to stop it. (Russia wasn't fond of the idea of a
German owned launch site...)

Nigeria isn't any sillier than the ESA launch site in Guyana(sp?).

> Chile-good cooperator nation, with NAFTA

Chile is awfully poor. And the terrain is the pits for transport.
Remember, a spaceport needs good transportation links.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:23:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?

In mail you write:

> ...and I saw that you have to (a) buy enough fuel to get the missile to
> the target, as opposed to buying a Generic Missile Booster with perhaps
> the cost and bulk determined by TL, and that (b) this is expressed in
> G-hours.

> Now this presumes (unless I'm way off base) that your ships -- the
> targets you are trying to hit -- ALSO have their thrust expressed in
> G-hours.... but they aren't (they are expressed, of course, in terms of
> ACCELERATION, from 1-6 G's).

G-hours are a measure of how much velocity change the missile can do. A
10 G hour missile can do 10 g for 1 hour (assuming the engine can give
that much thrust), 1 g for 10 hours, 2 g for 5 hours, etc. 

The ships are likewise limited in how much fuel they have, unless they
are using thruster plates.

> There were plenty of examples of things
> that aren't addressed in the main rule system (that is just the one I
> happen to recall).... just as there was in the SSDS, where there were
> row upon row of abstract figures and values that STILL haven't been
> explained or addressed (light-seconds, having to convert damage from
> obsolete TNE measures to T4, etc., with zero explanation of what these
> numbers meant, where they came from, or were intended to be used for).

Anybody playing an SF game that doesn't know what a light second is had
better diversify their reading a bit. A light-second is the distance
light travels in one second. It's fairly useful for measuring distances
on the scale needed.

> I was willing to give it a fair shot -- it is certainly much better
> illustrated and laid out than any of its predecessors, which pleased me
> since most all the T4 books look as though they were laid out by a
> student intern -- but my overwhelming initial impression was that the
> content has nothing to do with T4 at all. It looks as though it was
> simply a cleaned-up and improved version of the old FF&S, and makes
> numerous assumptions tha the reader is familiar with & conversant with
> the TNE rules set -- now obsolete and out of print for several years. 

A lot of those assumptions are more likely that the reader is familiar
with science and technology, not TNE.

> In other words, it looks as though it were produced Of, By, and For the
> Traveller Mailing List, and is about as useful to anybody NOT being a
> math whiz and and NOT having all the old books memorized and NOT having
> been along for the ride for the past ten-fifteen-odd years as teats on a
> boar hog. What IS a G-hour? WHERE is this mentioned in the T4 rulebook?
> HOW does one build a QSDS or even SSDS ship and then build an FF&S2
> missile to shoot at it? How, for Christ's sake, do you determine who
> hits what?

FF&S2 is *not* combat rules. In fact, one of the major handicaps in
working on it was that IG couldn't give us a combat system. That meant
that we couldn't give ranges, distances, times and damage in "game"
terms, but had to either give them in real world terms (like G hour and
light second) or stick with the old TNE values (like armor value) that
they said would be usable in the new combat system (whenever they get
it written).

> I am now convinced that with such a bizarre, retrograde design backbone
> for their game system -- hardware design being central to the hard-SF
> genre -- that IG will falter and die off within two or three years.
> Which is a drastic assumption to make after five minutes of skimming
> through one book, and I openly welcome testimony to the contrary. I rode
> the bus for half an hour to Gamescape because I was willing to look at
> it and be convinced, and I still am. If you can convince me that it
> ain't that bad and is relevant to existing material, then I will try to
> swallow all those formulae. For example: is there an updated combat
> system in FF&S2 that makes use of G-hours, and moreover will convert
> existing ship designs whose thrust is expressed in G's of acceleration
> to G-hour-stats... and I skimmed over it? Let's see some reviews &
> feedback, please.

Sorry, but if you want "hard SF" then you are stuck with formulas and
calculators. SSDS and QSDS are *simplified* versions of FF&S.
Simplified so that you only need to add and do a little multiplying.

Again, there is no combat system in FF&S2. The values like G-hours are
there so people can use the designs with whatever combat system they
have currently and so that when IG *does* come out with a combat
system, it'll be relatively simple to convert them to it.

> In the meantime, I'd encourage anybody putting together an Excel
> spreadsheet for FF&S2 to limit themselves to creating one spreadsheet
> for each component type, instead of super-gigantic, all-encompassing
> monsters to design a whole ship by. If you can put something together to
> let mere mortals like myself create their own spinal mount or capital
> missile launcher or sensor suite, then have a column at the bottom
> expressing the result in T4 stats so we can plug it into our SSDS/QSDS
> creations, that would be the greatest of services to the T4 gaming
> community at large. If IG has two active brain cells to rub together at
> this point, they'll put them on a CD-ROM and start bundling them with
> the rulebook.... and eliminate all that pointless, unexplained crap
> about 'microseconds' and 'G-hours.'

Microseconds are a real unit of time. G-hours is simply a
*self-explanitory* term for how much accel for how long. Mind you, IG
said that they'd explain terminology, and it appears that they didn't
bother. <sigh> In any case FF&S2 is *supposed* to be for the "techy"
types. If you want a system that follows reality (which is what the
term "hard sf" *means*) then it *has* to be complex, simply because
reality is complex.

Don't blame the book for not being what you want whernm what you want
isn't what the book is supposed to be. If you want simple, then use
SSDS or QSDS. If you want to get "down and dirty" with the nitty-gritty
details, then you have to be prepared to learn how to use the system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:54:56 -0500
From: deadeye@ebicom.net
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft

> In the US Navy, *all* helo pilots start with fixed wing. Only after getting their wings for fixed wing aircraft do they start helo school.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think the US Army doesn't give their helo pilots any fixed wing training at all.  They are the only branch to train enlisted as helicopter pilots. 
> 

True, at Ft Rucker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:43:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Vilani, Humanity & E. Coli

    Speaking on E. Coli, I know that the Humanity and E. Coli have a symbiotic
relationship.  We functionally will starve without it over time is my
understanding because it's vital in our processing the food we eat.  But how
long have we Humans on Terra and E. Coli had this symbiotic relationship?
Remember Grandfather and Co. yanked the last proto-Humans off Terra circa
300,000 years ago so it is possible that the Vilani may not have the E. Coli
adaption.
    If that's so, what's the reaction going to be of the Vilani G-I tract when
E. Coli settles in to stay?  And if the Vilani and the other minor races took
E. Coli to their new worlds and into space with them.  How are Terran Humans
going to handle adapting to these new probably very different Strains of E.
Coli?
    Heck, here on Earth moving fifty miles often means changing the strain of
E. Coli in your gut and that usually brings on a case of Montezuma's Revenge.
How much worse is the reaction going to be when you're distance is measured in
parsecs and 300,000+ years of evolution on alien worlds?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:42:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: RE:Femicide

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:41:02 MET, GREI5001@uni-trier.de Wrote...

>> The question is can their societies, heck their cultures SURVIVE male
>> to female ratios of 3 to 5 or more to 1?
> <Sarcasm>
> If not, it should take care of that country's overpop-problem!
> </sarcasm>
    And it may well take care of OUR population problem in the Industrialized
World as well, through thermonuclear warfare.  I know what you're saying and it
seems to be something humorous at first blush.  But take it seriously, the rest
of Asia is.

    ObTrav; I've always wondered why there was so little representation of
Asian Cultures in Traveller, especially the Solomani.  We're only talking about
around half of all the Terran born Humans for the next century or two after
all.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:43:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: RE:T41 Skills Draft A Armorer

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:49:27, CardSharks@aol.com Wrote...

>        Armorer (Soldier)       Dex, Int
>        Armorer skill is an expertise in the care of and repair of
> weaponry. The individual can operate, maintain, and repair military
> and civilian weapons. This expertise extends to small arms (hand
> weapons), heavy weapons, artillery, and ship=92s weapons. Weapons
> are made to be maintained and repaired; an armorer=92s experience
> and background includes a working knowledge of currently available
> weapons, a historical knowledge of other weapons, and an ability to
> find references which help in handling otherwise unknown weapons.
    How are you planning to handle the differences in Tech Levels?  TL2-3
Armorer is going to know how to craft chain and plate mail from scratch, swords
and perhaps up to flintlock firearms.  However I seriously doubt he's going to
have a CLUE as to how to handle Battle Dress.  And the situation is reversed, a
TL13 Armorer is going to look at a suit of plate mail and go "Huh?!?"
    IMHO this is a bit too broad for the TL spread, it needs to account for it
in some way shape or form.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:43:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: RE:Clever Player, DRAT!

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:12:29 , dbussey@bbtel.com Wrote...

> I think you would need to use the "basalt rock" method with the mirrors.
    I'm coming to that conclusion myself.

> If you don't have something to focus the mirrors on, you need to focus
> on a *point* (i.e. a geometry style point ... infinitesimal), an
> impossibe task, especially at TL 4.  If you don't have a solid object
> to focus on, you run a GREAT BIG HUGE chance of burning a hole through
> the fabric of the balloon. (You would need to focus the mirrors up...
> through the normal heating hole or bye-bye balloon)  I don't think your
> characters want to plummet several hundred feet.
    They've already done it once, you're right, they don't want to do it again.
hehehe  Okay, a rock painted black it is then, something that doesn't fracture
when heated and holds heat well.  OC creating this kind of differential in heat
in an enclosed space is going to cause convection isn't it?

> However, if the balloon fabric is able to handle the necessary
> temperature without burning a hole in it, you could just focus
> on the balloon.
    Nope, I'm figuring something like a light silk fabric or something similar.

> I hope your characters don't run into cloudy weather at an inopportune
> moment ;-)
    ::chuckle:: Thank you for that idea! <GRIN>

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:20:25, johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU Wrote...

> Now if your clever players want to REALLY play with fire let your
> academic one 'remember' how much lift you get from hydrogen ;->
    That was her first thought, then I asked her how she planned to distill it
out and store it. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 11:43:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: RE:T41 Skills Draft B Blade Co

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:51:16, CardSharks@aol.com Wrote...

>       Blade Combat Cascade    Dex, Str, End
>       The Blade Combat skill cascade indicates a familiarity with
> the use of edged weapons: Knife (which includes all short bladed
> weapons), and Sword (which includes all long bladed weapons). It
> is the knowledge of close-in armed fighting, and the individual
> knows how to handle swords and knives in combat situations. Within
> the skill cascade, the individual is skilled in a specific type of
> blade weapon, and has a somewhat lower skill in the other weapons.
    How are you planning to handle the styles of use of these various blade
weapons?  FoEx; a Japanese Katana and a 18th Century Naval Cutlass are
functionally similar weapons but how they are welded in the hands of an
experienced swordsman makes all difference in the world!  Also you have to deal
with the theory and practice of HOW to use the blade and that varies widely by
culture and even region here on Earth.
    In Asia the tendency it to present the full body, bringing all the weight
and power to bear in order to kill the opponent and move on to the next target.
The Europe however the tendancy is to present a side profile, minimizing target
area and thus dragging out the combat.  This effects what types of bladed
weapons are used.  Again in Asia because of the tendancy for full body exposure
the weapons tend less towards the point and more on the heavy slash for swift
killing and crippling strokes.  Whereas in Europe the preference for side
profile led to the development of the Rapier, a point weapon designed for reach
and penitration to vital organs.
    These are generalizations OC, but they do tend to make my point.  Not all
swords are created equal or used in the same manner for the same purposes.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:50:35 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?

At 14:22 14/08/97 -0700, JayStr wrote:
>I am now convinced that with such a bizarre, retrograde design backbone
>for their game system -- hardware design being central to the hard-SF
>genre -- that IG will falter and die off within two or three years.

	That long? I came to this conclusion ages ago. I feel very ripped-off
after having bought Starships and First Survey, and it doesn't seem as if
things have improved as much as they ought to. I only bought Pocket Empires
because a few said it was that good, and after buying and reading it, I
have to agree, despite a few minor bugs that I can work around.

	However, I can not make myself spend any more money on IG products unless
I see at least three or four people say that a particular product is really
excellent. The stuff that Andy Lilly's Bits / Core group produces is most
worthy, and I have no hesitation in buying from them.

	Take "The Long Way Home".
	The diagrams are very good, compared to say Starships, which were appalling.
	The sequential nuggets of each adventure gives everything a structure that
makes it easy to find what you want. Although "Anomalies" is fine, why
wasn't this structure used in part here by IG?
	The tables are where they should be, with the main text that they pertain
to. They are not hidden in among a wealth of other tables, where you have
to flick backwards and forwards each time to find them.
	There are no major glaring omissions, like the Jump Drive table in T4, or
the Starship deckplan in M0.
	Plus too many other nice touches to mention.

	Why can't all Traveller things be this good!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:27:18 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

At 17:14 14/08/97 -0600, Joseph Heck wrote:
>>Bruce E J Lewis wrote:
>>	Also, how about breaking some of the survival skills down a bit? Or is
>>this a bad idea? Some could be fishing, build shelter, locate water,
>>recognise edible food from the surrounding flora and fauna, etc.
>
>I think I'm in the minimalist camp. I'd prefer to have more "generic"
>skills, instead of a large number of definitive skills. The biggest thing
>I've had a hard time with in terms of "skills" is that undefinable quality
>that lets you scan the surroundings for a hint of danger or something out
>of place.
>
	Fair enough, I take your point. What skill would you roll against here?
Wouldn't Perception help with the above example? (And maybe Recon too) I
don't think you could break Perception down, because by definition that
skill is generic in that you are looking for you don't know what, so you
can't be too specific in its general application anyway, not even in real
life (whatever that is ;-) )

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:44:16 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Jump Drives

 Sorry to bring up an old topic...but...

I was reading some old CT stuff last night, and I came across Annic Nova...a
ship that does not require jump fuel. Instead, it has to charge up it's
accumulators for 1D6 weeks before jumping.

On the list, some people came up with the rather cool (I thought) "Hydrogen
Bubble" theory about jump fuel - but if you consider Annic Nova canon, it
appears that this cannot be the case. Does anyone know if the Ancient ship
in Secret of the Ancients requires H2?

I'm trying to come up with a pseudo-technical description of J-drives,
including a description of the necessity of H2 and the size limit of
jump-capable vessels (the 100std limit).

Any ideas?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:05:28 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Biowar and the Terrans

Well, lots of ideas have been thrown out and I for one have had to take time
to pause and think. Just how vulnerable would the Vilani have been to Terran
diseases? How capable would they have been to responding to a biowar attack?
Could they have retaliated? Would the Terrans have used such weapons?

I'm going to try to answer these one by one.

How vulnerable were the Vilani?
I think the answer is very. There are reference in V&V to the Plague of Duskir
which was basically just Terran diseases meeting Vilani in the normal course
of events. So one can start with the premis that Terran diseases are largely
compatable with the Vilani. The Vilani are seperated by 300,000 years from the
Terrans. This gives them all the immunities developed up till that point. But
as I understand it 300,000 years ago humans had not really moved out of Africa.
So the Vilani have not been in contact with the organisms from outside of
humanities cradle and those they have been in contact with have evolved more
than a little since then. So I think its fair to say that if left unchecked
Terran diseases would have a field day with the Vilani.

How capable were they of responding?
Probably a lot better than I originally thought. The Vilani do have some
diseases native to Vland (only a handful, but they would have a few); they
have animals who are vulnerable to native Vlandian pathogens; they would have
some pathogens of Terran origin on vland (if only the symbiotic organisms that
use them as host they brought from Terra); they have contacted other human
races who likely have a few diseases; they have contacted other non-humans who
are in their native environment. So I'd say the Vilani know the basics. They
would know about quarantene, they would probaby know about antibiotics,
they possibly know about vaccination. Were the Vilani would fall down is in
identifing and rapidly responding to disease. There are big holes in Vilani
biological theory neccessitated by streaching to fit themselves into the
theories. They don't know about sterile operating proceadure, they don't have
any human antibiotics or vaccines. They probably don't know how to deal with
pandemics. So all up, I'd say if a disease got a hold on a Vilani world, their
response would be limited to quarantene, hope and call for the veterinarians.
Vilani medicine is basically limited to trauma care.

Could they retaliate?
Well the Vilani doubtless have some nasty pathogens which would put a crimp in
a Terran's day. but they don't have many and they don't have the capacity to
geneer them. Also these diseases are likely to be effective against Vilani as
well and their own lack of medical technology would make it hard to develop
protective measures from their own bioweapons. What they do have is a whole
range of allergic biotoxins (the very food they eat is essentially toxic to
humans) and the have the normal range of common or garden chemical and nuclear
weapons. So while the Vilani can't respond in kind too well, they can respond.

Would the Terrans use the weapons?
The Terrans undoubtedly would develop bioweapons against the Vilani. They are
just too useful to ignore. However would they have actually used them? The
answer is probably a highly qualified yes. In the early wars the Vilani
capacity to retaliate with chemical and nuclear weapons is great. I'd say that
the Terrans would hold off initially. If the Vilani used nukes against
civilian targets then the Terrans would probably have responded with bio
attacks to drive home the point that this was not a good idea. However when the
Terrans develop more advanced non-lethal bioagents, then I could see the
Terrans employing non-lethal bioagents against military targets.


So to wrap it all up, I'll give my take on the history of biowar during the
Interstellar Wars.

The Terrans first developed biowar agents during the later years of the First
Interstellar War. Intially these were not employed for fear of the Vilani
response. The first actual use of biowar agents came during the Third
Interstellar War. During the later stages of the war, the Vilani governor
launched a nuclear strike against the Terran colonies on Prometheus. In
response the Terrans launched a biowar attack on the Vilani world of
Mashaddun (deliberately chosen for its location deep in Vilani territory), and
made it clear that futher nuclear attacks would result in esculation. As a
result of this an informal deterance developed that was to last until the
8th War.

By the time of the 6th War the Terrans had developed effective non-lethal
agents. However again the fear of the Vilani response prevented their
deployment. These weapons were not deployed until the later stages of the 8th
War. By this time the Vilani capacity to respond was judged to be acceptable
and to speed up an end to the war the Terrans utilised these non-lethal agents
against military targets. Naturally the Vilani did attempt to retaliate with
nuclear weapons, but by this stage the collapse of effective resistance and the
Terran development of nuclear dampers made this much less of a threat than it
had once been. These non-lethal agents were again used during the 9th and Nth
Wars. During the Nth Wars there were also a few incidences of their employment
against civilian targets as the Vilani capacity to retaliate had simple ceased.

It should be noted that the Terran biowar program attracted particularly
vocal opposition from within the Confederation through out the Interstellar
Wars period.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:57:21 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <brenton@psfc.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft A Aircraft

>On 08/14/97 at 05:37 PM,  deadeye@ebicom.net said:
>
>>Sounds good to me.  Except fixed wing pilots CANNOT fly helicopters
>>without specific training.  Concepts are similar but controls are
>>different.
>
>>Helo pilots catch on very quickly to fixed wing ops, as they usually start
>>in fixed wing in the USAF.
>
>In the US Navy, *all* helo pilots start with fixed wing. Only after getting
>their wings for fixed wing aircraft do they start helo school.
>
>I'm not sure, but I think the US Army doesn't give their helo pilots any
>fixed wing training at all.  They are the only branch to train enlisted as
>helicopter pilots. The Navy and Air Force only train Officers as pilots.

I also believe that Harrier pilots (fixed wing VTOL) are required to
qualify on helos *and* jets before getting into the seat of the jump-jet.
When they tried to train pilots who were fixed-wing only their casualty
rates (human and equipment) jump to unacceptable levels.

I would suggest that 'aircraft' skill is perfectly sufficient for game
purposes, and that modelling the varieties of required training is more
than the system needs to do.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
[***note email address change***]
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:04:01 -0600
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: RoM/Terran TL

On Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:40:51 PDT
Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK> writes:
>
> lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney) sent:
>
>> 
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:44:17 -0700 (DIGEST #1501)
>> Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>> >Subject: Re: Rule of Man (ROM) TL
>> >
>> >Leroy-
>> >
>> >[snippish biggish]
>> >
>> >(BTW:  Terra was at TL 13 when invaded by the Imperium at the end of the
>> >Solomani Rim War, it only reached TL 15 under the Imperial Miltary
>> >Government [sources: Azhanti High Lightning (game), Invasion: Earth (game)])
>> >
>> >Douglas E. Berry
>[Snippius Magnus]
>
>I looked through the counters of Invasion:Earth, The Solomani have ground
>forces ranging from TL-14 to 11, the Imperials from TL-14 to 13, so it would
>be reasonable to assume that Terra, as capital of the Confederation would
>have been at TL-14 - 15 at the time of the attack.


Agreed!  In fact, since you know how hard fighting the Solomani were, it is
also reasonable to assume that both Imperial and Solomani TL15 regulars were
left out of the fight because they were heavily casualty prone from recent
fighting.  Remember that the seige of Earth is one of the _last_ events of
the war.  The Solomani units are probably just home guard reserves that they
had to drum up to defend Earth.


>As a side note, one of the Solomani Army counters is labeled 'Ihathi' (sp?) -
>Aslan fighting for Solomani - amazing what those furballs will do for land!


Yeah, reminds of when I first noticed the counters in Imperium. :)


>Eamon.
>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:08:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft C Carousing

x	Carousing	Soc, End
	The individual is skilled in meeting people and enjoying their company.
Carousing indicates a person is gregarious and sociable, enjoys meeting a=
nd
mingling with strangers, and is comfortable in unfamiliar social
surroundings. The skill is useful for making a good first impression in
encounters with potential hirelings or patrons.

	To spend an evening in fun.
	(End + Carousing) < Average (2D)
	Success means the person had a good time.

	To spend an evening in fun with friends.
	(End + Carousing) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Cooperative (4 Carousing).
	Up to 4 participants who have Soc within a span of 5 (for example, betwe=
en 1
and 5, or between 7 and B) may add their skill levels together in the
resolution of this task. The character with the highest End contributes t=
hat
characteristic. The group itself may be up to three times the size of tho=
se
participating in the task.
	Each character rolls the task separately for personal fun (even if not
personally contributing Carousing skill).

	To meet someone with relevant information or gossip.
	(Int + Carousing) < Difficult (2.5D)

	A character with Carousing also understands proper behaviors for moving
within +/- 2 of the character=92s Social Standing. For example, Eneri Din=
sha
779789 is comfortable carousing with any characters with Soc between 7 an=
d B.
	Carousing, Admin, Liaison, Diplomacy, and Streetwise are related skills.
Carousing is the skill of meeting people and enjoying their company. Admi=
n is
the skill of working within an organization. Liaison is the skill of
coordinating relationships between different cultures or organizations.
Diplomacy is the formal skill of negotiation between governments. Streetw=
ise
is the skill of dealing with local subcultures without alienating them.
	Carousing is one of four members of the Interact skill cluster (the othe=
rs
are Bribery, Diplomacy, Fast Talk).
	Carousing is a default skill (anyone can try to carouse, but at Carousin=
g-0,
the chance of an ordinary person having a good time on any given evening =
is
about 17%).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1694
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1695



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

T41 Skills Draft C Chemistry
T41 Skills Draft B Business
T41 Skills Draft B Bribery
Traveller Books wanted - 101 Robots, Grand Survey, Grand Census
T41 Skills Draft B Brawling
T41 Skills Draft B Broker
Re: M: E21
RE:Femicide
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
RE:T41 Skills Draft A Armorer
T41 Skills Draft C Camouflage
Re: Femicide
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1687

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:09:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft C Chemistry

	Chemistry (Physical Sciences)	Edu, Int
	Chemistry skill involves knowledge of the science of inorganic and organic
compounds. A character with Chemistry has a fundamental knowledge of the
science of Chemistry, its basic principles, relevant theories, and their
application to life and career.
	Fundamental Knowledge. The basic knowledge of Chemistry is classroom taught.
The individual knows, or can find in references, basic information about
chemical activity.
	Qualitative Analysis. A person with Chemistry skill can apply that knowledge
to the analysis of samples in order to determine their general composition
and its relevance to the current state of knowledge. The statement "This
object is composed of matter our science has never seen" is the result of
Qualitative Analysis.

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Easy (1D)
	Uncertain (.5D)

	Typical Easy analysis involves knocking on a panel and asking=85 "Is this
steel? Aluminum? What?=20

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Average (2D)
	Uncertain (1D)

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Difficult (2.5D)
	Uncertain (1.5D)

	A Ph. D in Chemistry (Edu A, Chemistry-6) would look at any of the previous
tasks and know he would be successful barring only Spectacular Failure.

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Formidable (3D)
	Uncertain (2D)
=09
	The result is a qualitative analysis of the sample, indicating the mater=
ials
which compose it and a knowledge of its general properties.
	Quantitative Analysis. A person with Chemistry skill can apply that
knowledge to the analysis of samples in order to determine their specific
composition. Before a quantitative analysis can be made, the chemist must=
 be
successful in a qualitative analysis.=20

	To analyze (Quantitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Average (2D)
	Uncertain (1D)

	A graduate student in chemistry (Edu-7, Chemistry-2) could probably hand=
le
this task.

	To analyze (Quantitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Formidable (4D)
	Uncertain (3D)

	This task is more appropriate for a doctoral candidate.

	Chemical Engineering. Given a knowledge of the composition through
Quantitative Analysis, a chemist can create a process which will reproduc=
e
the material.
	Unlike analysis, which depends on Education, Chemical Engineering tasks
depend on Intelligence.

	To create a process (Chemical Engineering)
	(Int + Chemistry) + Equipment < Formidable (4D)
	Uncertain (3D). Accurate quantitative analysis results are required for
success.
	BioChemistry. While Chemistry involves some knowledge of organic compoun=
ds,
it does not encompass Biology. An individual with skill level 4+ in both
Chemistry and Biology is a BioChemist.
		Chemical Equipment. All chemical tests with a difficulty greater than E=
asy
require some lab equipment; without lab equipment, tests cannot be made.
	+1	Test Kit.=20
	+2	Portable Lab Pack. Typical University Student Lab.
	+3	Field Lab.
	+4	Shipboard Lab.
	+5	Typical University Research Lab.
	+6	Major Commercial Lab.
	Chemistry is one of five members of the Physical Sciences skill cluster =
(the
others are Biology, Geology, Medical, and Physics).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:08:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Business

	Business Cluster	Int, Edu
	The Business skill cluster includes Broker and Trader, reflecting two
specific elements of the merchant profession. Broker is concerned with
finding buyers or sellers for goods; Trader is concerned with accurately
estimating the value of merchandise.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:09:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Bribery

x	Bribery	Int, Soc
	Bribery is an understanding of the process of financial persuasion. The
individual has an awareness of how to convince others to take a specific
course of action, what financial incentives to offer, and when such offers
are appropriate and when they are likely to be rebuffed.

	To evaluate if a clerk is susceptible to a bribe
	(Int + Bribery) < Average (2D)
	Success indicates whether the clerk is open to bribery

	To bribe a clerk to issue a permit without proper papers
	(Int + Bribery) <Average (2D)

	Bribery is one of four members of the Interact skill cascade (the others are
Carousing, Diplomacy, and Fast Talk).
	Bribery is a default skill.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:03:38 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: Traveller Books wanted - 101 Robots, Grand Survey, Grand Census

I'm Sorry if this is the wrong forum for this, but the rec.frp.marketplace
is non responsive, so I thought I would go to the source of all traveller
mayhem and seek the answers to my quest.

	I am looking for a copy to purchase of each of these items:

	DGP:
	101 Robots
	Grand Survey
	Grand Census

	Megatraveller Journal #1,#2 (I have #3) and any others above #3

	I am willing to make trades for items if that may interest anyone, and I
will pay any reasonable price since these are out of print.

	Please respond to: scspieker@ncweb.com

	Thank you,
	Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:08:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Brawling

x	Brawling (Fighting)	Dex, Str
	Brawling is an unstructured hand-to-hand fighting skill. It is learned b=
y
experience (rather than taught). The individual is familiar with the
processes of conflict resolution through violence. He has an understandin=
g
his personal abilities and limitations when interacting violently with
others.
>Personal Combat. Brawling is used in the Personal Combat process.
	Brawling is one of three members of the Fighting skill cascade (the othe=
rs
are Melee and Environmental Combat). Brawling encompasses unarmed,
unstructured hand-to-hand combat. In contrast, Melee is structured
hand-to-hand combat (boxing, wrestling, martial arts). Environmental Comb=
at
involves fighting in High G or Zero-G, or special situations (such as
underwater).

x	Bribery	Int, Soc
	Bribery is an understanding of the process of financial persuasion. The
individual has an awareness of how to convince others to take a specific
course of action, what financial incentives to offer, and when such offer=
s
are appropriate and when they are likely to be rebuffed.

	To evaluate if a clerk is susceptible to a bribe
	(Int + Bribery) < Average (2D)
	Success indicates whether the clerk is open to bribery

	To bribe a clerk to issue a permit without proper papers
	(Int + Bribery) <Average (2D)

	Bribery is one of four members of the Interact skill cascade (the others=
 are
Carousing, Diplomacy, and Fast Talk).
	Bribery is a default skill.

x	Broker (Business)	Edu
	Broker is a Business skill regarding the marketing of goods, and represe=
nts
an understanding of the business of buying and selling. A broker acts as =
an
agent for the owner of goods (and may act for himself); when the sale tak=
es
place, the broker receives a commission.

	To find a buyer for trade goods.
	(Edu + Broker) < Average (2D)
	A broker receives a commission of 5% per level of skill (to a maximum of
20%).

	Trade and Commerce. Broker skill is used in the Trade and Commerce proce=
ss.

	Broker is one of two members of the Business skill cluster (the other is
Trader). Trader enables a character to accurately estimate the true value=
 of
merchandise.
	Broker is a default skill (and at Broker-0 allows an individual to make =
a
deal; it is not enough to allow a commission).

	Bureaucracy Cluster	Int, Edu, Soc
	The Bureaucracy skill cluster includes Administration and Leadership, an=
d so
reflects the two competing elements of every bureaucratic organization. W=
hen
serving in a bureaucratic organization, Administration makes the characte=
r
look competent in the eyes of his superiors. Leadership allows an individ=
ual
to take control.

	Business Cluster	Int, Edu
	The Business skill cluster includes Broker and Trader, reflecting two
specific elements of the merchant profession. Broker is concerned with
finding buyers or sellers for goods; Trader is concerned with accurately
estimating the value of merchandise.

x	Camouflage	Int, Str
	Camouflage is the art of concealing large objects (oneself, vehicles,
buildings, starships) from detection. Depending on the circumstances,
camouflage may involves visual, sensor, or other means. Cover and camoufl=
age
are military terms: cover implies actual protection from incoming attack;
camouflage implies an attempt to avoid being detected.
	Visual Camouflage. Classic camouflage conceals objects from visual detec=
tion
by covering them, painting them, or changing their visual outline.
	Camouflage indicates changes or additions to appearance or sensor signat=
ures
in order to hide an object or person. Camouflaged items are significantly
move likely to be detected if they are moving.

	To conceal a vehicle so it cannot be seen by searchers.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Easy (1D)
	At Vlong Range..Difficulty +1 per range decrease.
=09
	To conceal a moving vehicle from observers.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Staggering (4D)
	At Vlong Range..Difficulty +1 per range decrease.

	To camouflage a vehicle from searching police.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Cooperative (3 Camouflage).
	Up to three participants may add their skill levels together in the
resolution of this task. The character with the highest Int would contrib=
ute
that characteristic.

	Sensor Camouflage. Camouflage can also be applied to non-visual situatio=
ns
such as radar or sensor scans.=20

	To conceal a starship on a world surface.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Detecting Things. Camouflage also allows an individual to better detect
objects or people who have been camouflaged.

	To detect an object which has been camouflaged.
	(Int + Camouflage) - Camouflage< Average (2D)
	Opposed (2). The opponent=92s Camouflage is a minus modifier which reduc=
es the
target number.

	Stealth is a related skill and indicates an ability to move quietly.=20
	Camouflage is one of six members of the Soldier skill cluster (the other=
s
are 	Armorer, Ground Craft, Demolitions, Heavy Weapons, and Tactics)
	Camouflage is a default skill.

x	Carousing	Soc, End
	The individual is skilled in meeting people and enjoying their company.
Carousing indicates a person is gregarious and sociable, enjoys meeting a=
nd
mingling with strangers, and is comfortable in unfamiliar social
surroundings. The skill is useful for making a good first impression in
encounters with potential hirelings or patrons.

	To spend an evening in fun.
	(End + Carousing) < Average (2D)
	Success means the person had a good time.

	To spend an evening in fun with friends.
	(End + Carousing) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Cooperative (4 Carousing).
	Up to 4 participants who have Soc within a span of 5 (for example, betwe=
en 1
and 5, or between 7 and B) may add their skill levels together in the
resolution of this task. The character with the highest End contributes t=
hat
characteristic. The group itself may be up to three times the size of tho=
se
participating in the task.
	Each character rolls the task separately for personal fun (even if not
personally contributing Carousing skill).

	To meet someone with relevant information or gossip.
	(Int + Carousing) < Difficult (2.5D)

	A character with Carousing also understands proper behaviors for moving
within +/- 2 of the character=92s Social Standing. For example, Eneri Din=
sha
779789 is comfortable carousing with any characters with Soc between 7 an=
d B.
	Carousing, Admin, Liaison, Diplomacy, and Streetwise are related skills.
Carousing is the skill of meeting people and enjoying their company. Admi=
n is
the skill of working within an organization. Liaison is the skill of
coordinating relationships between different cultures or organizations.
Diplomacy is the formal skill of negotiation between governments. Streetw=
ise
is the skill of dealing with local subcultures without alienating them.
	Carousing is one of four members of the Interact skill cluster (the othe=
rs
are Bribery, Diplomacy, Fast Talk).
	Carousing is a default skill (anyone can try to carouse, but at Carousin=
g-0,
the chance of an ordinary person having a good time on any given evening =
is
about 17%).

	Chemistry (Physical Sciences)	Edu, Int
	Chemistry skill involves knowledge of the science of inorganic and organ=
ic
compounds. A character with Chemistry has a fundamental knowledge of the
science of Chemistry, its basic principles, relevant theories, and their
application to life and career.
	Fundamental Knowledge. The basic knowledge of Chemistry is classroom tau=
ght.
The individual knows, or can find in references, basic information about
chemical activity.
	Qualitative Analysis. A person with Chemistry skill can apply that knowl=
edge
to the analysis of samples in order to determine their general compositio=
n
and its relevance to the current state of knowledge. The statement "This
object is composed of matter our science has never seen" is the result of
Qualitative Analysis.

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Easy (1D)
	Uncertain (.5D)

	Typical Easy analysis involves knocking on a panel and asking=85 "Is thi=
s
steel? Aluminum? What?=20

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Average (2D)
	Uncertain (1D)

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Difficult (2.5D)
	Uncertain (1.5D)

	A Ph. D in Chemistry (Edu A, Chemistry-6) would look at any of the previ=
ous
tasks and know he would be successful barring only Spectacular Failure.

	To analyze (Qualitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Formidable (3D)
	Uncertain (2D)
=09
	The result is a qualitative analysis of the sample, indicating the mater=
ials
which compose it and a knowledge of its general properties.
	Quantitative Analysis. A person with Chemistry skill can apply that
knowledge to the analysis of samples in order to determine their specific
composition. Before a quantitative analysis can be made, the chemist must=
 be
successful in a qualitative analysis.=20

	To analyze (Quantitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Average (2D)
	Uncertain (1D)

	A graduate student in chemistry (Edu-7, Chemistry-2) could probably hand=
le
this task.

	To analyze (Quantitative Analysis Chemistry) something.
	(Edu + Chemistry) + Equipment < Formidable (4D)
	Uncertain (3D)

	This task is more appropriate for a doctoral candidate.

	Chemical Engineering. Given a knowledge of the composition through
Quantitative Analysis, a chemist can create a process which will reproduc=
e
the material.
	Unlike analysis, which depends on Education, Chemical Engineering tasks
depend on Intelligence.

	To create a process (Chemical Engineering)
	(Int + Chemistry) + Equipment < Formidable (4D)
	Uncertain (3D). Accurate quantitative analysis results are required for
success.
	BioChemistry. While Chemistry involves some knowledge of organic compoun=
ds,
it does not encompass Biology. An individual with skill level 4+ in both
Chemistry and Biology is a BioChemist.
		Chemical Equipment. All chemical tests with a difficulty greater than E=
asy
require some lab equipment; without lab equipment, tests cannot be made.
	+1	Test Kit.=20
	+2	Portable Lab Pack. Typical University Student Lab.
	+3	Field Lab.
	+4	Shipboard Lab.
	+5	Typical University Research Lab.
	+6	Major Commercial Lab.
	Chemistry is one of five members of the Physical Sciences skill cluster =
(the
others are Biology, Geology, Medical, and Physics).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:15:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Broker

x	Broker (Business)	Edu
	Broker is a Business skill regarding the marketing of goods, and represents
an understanding of the business of buying and selling. A broker acts as an
agent for the owner of goods (and may act for himself); when the sale takes
place, the broker receives a commission.

	To find a buyer for trade goods.
	(Edu + Broker) < Average (2D)
	A broker receives a commission of 5% per level of skill (to a maximum of
20%).

	Trade and Commerce. Broker skill is used in the Trade and Commerce process.

	Broker is one of two members of the Business skill cluster (the other is
Trader). Trader enables a character to accurately estimate the true value of
merchandise.
	Broker is a default skill (and at Broker-0 allows an individual to make a
deal; it is not enough to allow a commission).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:59:31 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: M: E21

At 12:07 AM 8/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/14/97 at 08:35 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:
>
>>At 04:41 PM 8/14/97 -0500, Eris wrote:
>
>>>Oh, I don't know, Unilever is pretty well known over here.  How about
>>>Cebi-Gegi?  Sandoz? 
>
>>You're asking a Deadhead if he's ever heard of Sandoz.
>
>Doug, you don't count! ;->

Not on their products I don't...  8P'''''
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:21:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE:Femicide

At 11:42 AM 8/15/97 GMT, Stephen wrote:

>    ObTrav; I've always wondered why there was so little representation of
>Asian Cultures in Traveller, especially the Solomani.  We're only talking
about
>around half of all the Terran born Humans for the next century or two after
>all.

FWIW, the few times I ran things on the Solomani Rim, I used the zaibatsu
as a model for Solomani business practises, and had a number of modern
Japanese/Asian Rim corporations survive into the 3I.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:38:30 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

At 08:58 PM 8/14/97 +0100, Bruce wrote:

>	Also, how about breaking some of the survival skills down a bit? Or >is
this a bad idea? Some could be fishing, build shelter, locate water,
>recognise edible food from the surrounding flora and fauna, etc.

I tend to add a subskill defining the type of terrain the survival skill is
useful in (forest, desert, low-pressure, etc..)  I've considered using the
old survival skill grid from SPI's Universe game to allow PCs the
opportunity to become real outback survival types..

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:35:21 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE:T41 Skills Draft A Armorer

At 11:43 AM 8/15/97 GMT, Stephen wrote:

>    How are you planning to handle the differences in Tech Levels?  TL2-3
>Armorer is going to know how to craft chain and plate mail from scratch,
>swords and perhaps up to flintlock firearms.  However I seriously doubt
he's >going to have a CLUE as to how to handle Battle Dress.  And the
situation is >reversed, a TL13 Armorer is going to look at a suit of plate
mail and go >"Huh?!?"
>
>    IMHO this is a bit too broad for the TL spread, it needs to account
for >it in some way shape or form.

My solution is to have the players put the TL they learned the skill at
after the skill name  (Armorer(TL3)-4, for example).  That way I can
penalize players who are using wildly different TL equipment.  Alsdo, it
can dilute skills down a bit, since a player might wish to have a PC who,
while being from a TL13 world, might have a hobby of racing TL7 ground
vehicles.

You can do this for most of the technical skills, and even skills like
Research and some of the other sciences.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:12:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft C Camouflage

x	Camouflage	Int, Str
	Camouflage is the art of concealing large objects (oneself, vehicles,
buildings, starships) from detection. Depending on the circumstances,
camouflage may involves visual, sensor, or other means. Cover and camoufl=
age
are military terms: cover implies actual protection from incoming attack;
camouflage implies an attempt to avoid being detected.
	Visual Camouflage. Classic camouflage conceals objects from visual detec=
tion
by covering them, painting them, or changing their visual outline.
	Camouflage indicates changes or additions to appearance or sensor signat=
ures
in order to hide an object or person. Camouflaged items are significantly
move likely to be detected if they are moving.

	To conceal a vehicle so it cannot be seen by searchers.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Easy (1D)
	At Vlong Range..Difficulty +1 per range decrease.
=09
	To conceal a moving vehicle from observers.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Staggering (4D)
	At Vlong Range..Difficulty +1 per range decrease.

	To camouflage a vehicle from searching police.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Difficult (2.5D)
	Cooperative (3 Camouflage).
	Up to three participants may add their skill levels together in the
resolution of this task. The character with the highest Int would contrib=
ute
that characteristic.

	Sensor Camouflage. Camouflage can also be applied to non-visual situatio=
ns
such as radar or sensor scans.=20

	To conceal a starship on a world surface.
	(Int + Camouflage) < Difficult (2.5D)

	Detecting Things. Camouflage also allows an individual to better detect
objects or people who have been camouflaged.

	To detect an object which has been camouflaged.
	(Int + Camouflage) - Camouflage< Average (2D)
	Opposed (2). The opponent=92s Camouflage is a minus modifier which reduc=
es the
target number.

	Stealth is a related skill and indicates an ability to move quietly.=20
	Camouflage is one of six members of the Soldier skill cluster (the other=
s
are 	Armorer, Ground Craft, Demolitions, Heavy Weapons, and Tactics)
	Camouflage is a default skill.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:19:38 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Femicide

At 05:46 AM 8/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Moin s.johnson107@genie.com,
>
>> The question is can their societies, heck their cultures SURVIVE male
>> to female ratios of 3 to 5 or more to 1?
>
>	hey dont be on you high ross. some hundred years ago the
>	christian church had findelkammern in any "kloster", where
>	childs could be droped. And good will help them !
>
>	Of course most of them where female.

The difference being that the church then raised or placed these girls, who
grew up and married.  In the areas under discussion, femal children are
being killed off.  What is goijg to happen in about 20 years when there is
a huge varience in the normal 54-46 female/male distrubution?  My biggest
fear is the social disruption as the hordes of men go looking for wives,
and the find that they have to fight over them.

>	Think about war as a kind of population control, for
>	most civilisation. War mostly kills men, not women, so
>	where is the population control. The population control
>	only comes from one fact. That war make men a higher value
>	than woman, and that women more of die a "sudden childs dead"

Just about every war is followed by a surge in population growth, so war
isn't really an effective form of population control.  The only reason that
more men die in warfare is the fact that 90% of human cultures restrict
fighting to their men folk (which actually makes us the expendible ones.)

Anyway, we aren't talking about the sudden, random deaths caused by bombing
or shelling, the problem is the deliberate pre- or post partum elimination
of females due to a percieved uselessness of girls.  

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:52:39 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1687

At 10:47 AM 8/15/97 GMT, you wrote:

<snippage>


>And the problem here is, again, the rate of infection, not the rate of
>death (or, indeed, the percentage exposed who actually get sick). Even
>something like Bubonic plague is not 100% transmissible ... Influenza
>and Pnuemonic Plague, both transmitted by aerosol means, would be
>widely transmitted ... but the statistical methods above mean that the
>Vilani would soon pick up on this ... seeing how it was transmitted in
>a sealed environment.

But the panic factor has to be accounted for.  The Vilani might be facing a
real epidemic for the first time in their history!  Something as simple as
chicken pox could devastate a world where no one has immunity.

Just so you know, chicken pox is actually a very nasty disease.. in adults
it can kill or cause sterility, and there is a form of it called shingels
which causes *exceedingly painful* nerve damage (I know this personally).
A palnet full of pox'd Vilani would be in dire straights indeed, while the
immune Terrans would be almost powerless to help.

This might have been one of the real causes behind the quick exit of the
Rule of Man.  As epidemic after epidemic ravages through Vilani space, fear
of contact with outsiders and palnetary die backs would erode economic
development.  Finally, many worlds would either refuse any contact or just
go silent.. it could be that that fateful refusual to honor a monetary
issue came not from economic concerns, but fear of a pathogen on the currency!

After the Long Night, the die-back would be over and the surviving Vilani
would have most of the resitences that Solomani have, but it would have
easily assited in bringing down the RoM.

>And the Vilani have *some* germs ... even if only the e coli and the
>like in their gut. Some of those -- and the other "minor" human races
>they contacted in the times before First Contact with the would have
>certainly (on a statistical basis) have found *something*
>objectionable about each other's germs ... so they should have some
>experience in the AAB at least, to fall back on.

Others have commented on the e.coli situation, so I'll just pose a question
here.. what about genetic diseases?  My cancer is genetic in nature (a
result of bad coding for the lymphatic system), and I wonder if Yaskodray
might have fixed the DNA of the moved humans, or if they have the same
percentages of events like HD, Down's Syndrome, MD and the host of other
problems that come from bad genetic expression.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1695
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1696



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IW Terra tech
Re: E21
Question for Marc
Re: Jump Drives
PLEASE make sure you use the subject RoM/Terran TL
Re: Definitve Sensor Rules:
re:Traveller - Beyond the Pale.
re: RoM Tech! (the undead beastie rears its head again!)
Re: M: E21
re:T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Re: Mileu:E21
T41 Skills Draft B Bureaucracy
Re: Femicide
Re: M: E21
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Re:Traveller Books wanted 
Re: Clever Player, DRAT!
Re: Femicide
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Asia in Traveller
21st century Terra, et al.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 18:18 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: IW Terra tech

In-Reply-To: <l03020900b01219f4bc2b@[198.168.189.230]>

Roderick,

> So Marc, please give the Terrans leads in genetics and medicine
> since canon requires it, but stiff'em in the gravitics department...

IIRC canon already states that the Terrans were very late in developing 
gravitics.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:22:53 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: E21

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> writes:
>Subject: Re: Mileu:E21
>>I agree.
>>
>>Marc

There are a few other milieux I would like to see first.  I would rather
see a revised M0, and then something like the M(several hundred) in which
the various emperors of the flag were scurrying about.  Less expansion,
more nobles running about being Napoleonic.

One I might find interesting is a milieu outside the 3I, like a Solomani
expansion to rimward, or a way way lost colony outside the Ziru Sirka's
influence.  This would change the patterns a bit to be more colonizing
empty worlds, rather than recontacting old ones.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:57:53 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Question for Marc

> 	To identify a specific bow weapon.
> 	(Int + Bow Cbt) < Difficult (2.5D)

Question for you, Marc--if the new task system is to be Stat + Skill 
lvl, and skill levels are increased to a range of 1-15, then how is 
a Difficult task going to be obtained with 2.5D?

With skill ranging from 1-15, your target numbers are going to be so 
high that 2.5D will be nothing.

These target numbers (the ones in your new system), on average, are 
about the same as used in my system, KBv2.0.  I have solved the 
problem with these high target numbers by using a series of whole 
dice.  You may consider changing your difficulty codes to 2, 3, 4, 5, 
6, and 7 dice like I have done in my system.  This will bring success 
rates into an acceptible range.

Or, maybe I'm reading something wrong.  If so, can you explain it to 
me?

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:42:39 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

At 08:44 AM 8/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
> Sorry to bring up an old topic...but...
>
>I was reading some old CT stuff last night, and I came across Annic Nova...a
>ship that does not require jump fuel. Instead, it has to charge up it's
>accumulators for 1D6 weeks before jumping.
>
>On the list, some people came up with the rather cool (I thought) "Hydrogen
>Bubble" theory about jump fuel - but if you consider Annic Nova canon, it
>appears that this cannot be the case. Does anyone know if the Ancient ship
>in Secret of the Ancients requires H2?

I seem to recall that it did not.

At a certain tech level, you become capable of gating things into and out
of jump space via pocket universe technology.  For a brief period,
technologically, you can only gate in H2, as the strong nuclear force is
disrupted crossing the JS boundary.  (handwave handwave)

Even after interstellar teleportation becomes possible and easy, it still
requires a large pocket universe, and some hard to build hardware fairly
nearby, so if this remote fueling technology is feasible, it might be
useful over a larger distance.

The ancient ship and the Annic Nova both used this technology.  The AN did
used solar power, as then it did not need any outside sources, aside from a
teleporter dropped into a gas giant somewhere.

>I'm trying to come up with a pseudo-technical description of J-drives,
>including a description of the necessity of H2 and the size limit of
>jump-capable vessels (the 100std limit).

The size thing I explained with space curvature.  Even if the vessel were
smaller, it would require a grid sized for a 100t ship and at least 10t of
hydrogen fuel.  The H2 is used to build an unstable pocket universe inside
jump space.

FWIW, I have stable pocket universes in jump space as a technology akin to
creating a more normal pocket universe, and thus not usually worth doing.
If Grandfather wanted, he could make a jump ship that needed no fuel, but
he has no need to.
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:21:49 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: PLEASE make sure you use the subject RoM/Terran TL

At 10:47 PM 8/14/97 -0600, lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu wrote:

>Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com> writes:
>>o Design the milieu to cover the entire period of the Interstellar Wars
>>  (-2408 to -2219 3I, or 2112 to 2301 A.D.), with the technology
>>  advancement bar listed alongside the timeline.
>>[snip]

>I find it ironic that I have been planning phase II of the Great RoM Tech
>Level discussion, and interestingly enough, I had decided to pick the
>Interstellar Wars for my starting point.  Then, here comes the thread. B-)

If you do, and if others respond, PLEASE do not change the subject line.
During the last debate, I was annoyed enough to unsubscribe from the list.
By making the elements of the debate have a common subject, I can just
killfile this one discussion, rather than the participants.  Or the entire
list.  Many of the participants have useful to say on other subjects, but I
do not have the energy to go through another Great RoM Debate.  

(My annoyance last time was not about the challenge to generally held
beliefs, as that happens all the time.  It derived from the lack of debate
courtesy on the part of some participants.  Several people on both sides
were guilty of it, and it made the list very unpleasant.  Much like the
rashes of Marc-badgering that take place every now and then.  Pretty damn
childish.)

In my mind, after reading all of the references available, save S&A, I have
drawn my conclusions, and I would be utterly astonished if someone had any
new information to add.  You summarized two points of view, and I feel the
evidence best supports one of them.  Others may fall elsewhere, but I
suspect all has been said that needs to, and if the subject will not die,
then I am hoping that a mail filter will take me out of it.

Face it folks, this is not archeology, where there are new sources drawn
from the same information.  There is a finite, known set of Traveller
material, and by this point, I expect it has all been unearthed.  Anyone
can write something new which contradicts the past, but unlike archaeology,
such an action is likely a failure on the part of the author, rather than a
discovery.  Creativity comes in generating new information that does not
invalidate old information and previous games.  House rules are fine, as
long as they do not creep into published materials.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:42:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Definitve Sensor Rules:

deadeye@ebicom.net wrote:

>That drive glow is radiation.
>Imagine putting a jet engine inside yourship.
So? Lead/superdense line (& maybe polystyrene line) or even nuclear damp
the tunnel. It can't be *that* bad or they wouldn't allow operation on
planetary surfaces. In Traveller, the ship tean handle large solar flares
(I assume!) so it isn't necessarily a problem.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:54:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:Traveller - Beyond the Pale.

>
>	Next game will probably be in a couple of weeks.  I start bar
>school and a job at a nice firm downtown pretty soon, and so I'm not sure
>when or how often we'll be able to play again.  However, if and when we
>continue, I'll post the summaries.
>
>
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

I hope that you continue - they are one of the high points in my TML reading.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:57:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: RoM Tech! (the undead beastie rears its head again!)

>CONCLUSIONS
>
>Awhile back, a couple of people here on TML told me (on the HIWG list) that
>Traveller is 95% game mechanics and other things, with background being only
>5%.  While my knowledge of Traveller is richer for all of the discussion
>here, I don't think their estimates were anywhere close, given the response
>I have generally seen here to the over all discussion of the Rule of Man's
>Tech Level.


Leroy,

I would reverse the two proportions - Traveller is 95% background, else it
wouldn't have survived four different rules versions.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:46:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: M: E21

Eris wrote:

>On 08/14/97 at 10:53 AM,  Mark Samuels <Mark.Samuels@questintl.com> said:
>
>>  Many really big companies are less well known than the names of their
>>  subsidiaries or brands.  Plus geography plays a part.  Unilever may be
>>  better known among Europeans, whereas its rival (Procter & Gamble) is
>>  better known among Americans.
>
>Oh, I don't know, Unilever is pretty well known over here.  How about
>Cebi-Gegi?

Ciba Geigy?

Sandoz?

No.

 > Have
>people outside NA heard of Merck

Yes.

 Lucent
Yes - up and AT&T it?

or Schulmberge (sp)?  And just
Schlumberger? Yes

>*how* do you pronounce Bayer?  ;-> Is it pronounced bA-er, bE-er or bI-er

bA-er but I reckon Volker is right! ;-)

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:48:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:T41 Skills Draft Introduction

Mike Peters wrote:

>One skill from th CT days that is not present in T4 is the Steward
>skill. While I admit that it was a weak skill, "care and feeding of
>passengers", I think that it has some potential if expanded. One
>expansion I have used in the past is to include cargo handling duties
>under this skill. That is the ability to determine the "most efficient
>way to store AND SECURE cargo", to explain I point to the most efficient
>way to store cargo, obviously last in first out, but if it's screwed up
>a lot of time and labor could be wasted moving it. As far as secureing
>the cargo, well who wants tons of crates floating around while running
>from that pirate at multiple gees! Then there is live cargo and it's
>requirements. I have also concidered adding life support to the
>steward's responsibility, although this can easily be covered by
>Engineering or simple mechanics, but we needd something for these
>pest... crewmen to do to earn their pay, if we continue to require them
>on passenger carrying ships.

A bit like the cargo masters in the Norton Solar Queen books. (NB the
Cherryh book 'Tripoint' has some interesting zero-G cargo handling in it...)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:53:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Harold wrote:


>   Except that jump drive was developed by UNESCO, and then licensed to
>the various nation governments.

Curses. Sunk by a canon. ;-) NB would the US get it at a really bad rate
(along with the UK) for cutting the UNESCO contributions... ?

>   Probably one of the most Traveller-like (especially TNE) series ever
>made.  I kept expecting to see Hivers in a scene, but none appeared
>(which of course means nothing when you are talking about Hivers, since
>they are masters of hiding behind the scenes...).

Physics in it did suck though...

>   If I were writing the material, there would be a discussion of what
>the 'PTB' really know in the Referee's Section, and eventually a
>campaign (a set of three scenarios) in which the PCs stumble upon the
>truth.  At that point they have to decide whether to keep it quiet, or
>go public, knowing that if they do so they stand a chance of not being
>believed and being subjected to imprisionment or institutionalization
>("Poor guy thinks he saw an alien spacecraft with a human crew.  Next
>he'll tell us one of the humans was Elvis Presley.").

Hmm. Almost like stumbling on the fact that the Aslan aren't a major
race... ;-)

Seriously, that's what I meant - the referees' background is the place for
such knowledge.

>   "Those are not intelligent radio signals emminating from Barnard's
>Star.  You are mistaken.  Have a nice day."

Serve the computer. The computer is your friend. Trust no one. Keep you
laser happy. Please report for termination.... ?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
"Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:10:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: T41 Skills Draft B Bureaucracy

	Bureaucracy Cluster	Int, Edu, Soc
	The Bureaucracy skill cluster includes Administration and Leadership, and so
reflects the two competing elements of every bureaucratic organization. When
serving in a bureaucratic organization, Administration makes the character
look competent in the eyes of his superiors. Leadership allows an individual
to take control.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 13:42:08 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Femicide

On 08/15/97 at 05:46 AM,  kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) said:

>Moin s.johnson107@genie.com,

>> The question is can their societies, heck their cultures SURVIVE male
>> to female ratios of 3 to 5 or more to 1?

>	hey dont be on you high ross. some hundred years ago the
>	christian church had findelkammern in any "kloster", where
>	childs could be droped. And good will help them !

Maybe in *your* church, Michael, but not in *my* church. Keep in mind there
are a lot of different demoninations of Christians, and although they have
some things in common they aren't all alike..especially when it comes to
*social* (as opposed to religious) beliefs.

>	Think about war as a kind of population control, for
>	most civilisation. War mostly kills men, not women, so
>	where is the population control. The population control
>	only comes from one fact. That war make men a higher value
>	than woman, and that women more of die a "sudden childs dead"

While you are right that war is a kind of population control, it isn't war
that made societies give more worth to male children than female children.
Most people think it is based on the fact that males can produce more food
working in the fields than females, and therefore having another son (up to
a point) increased the food available for everyone, while having another
girl reduced the food available for everyone.  This might or might not have
been *true*, but it was the perception, belief (and probably observed fact)
of most traditional agricultural societies. Without any other
considerations would have been enough to cause families to favor boys over
girls.  This belief is outdated (in most societies) today, but it has
become ingrained in the social structure of most societies, and such
beliefs take time to die out.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 14:33:13 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: M: E21

On 08/15/97 at 12:13 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

>-> *how* do you pronounce Bayer?  ;-> Is it pronounced bA-er, bE-er or
>bI-er Hmm: Bavarian?

>I'd think i'd be pronounced Bah-jer. (If i got my American phonetics 
>right)

Heavens! ;->  

Bah <-- like when the Doctor puts a tongue depressor in you mouth and says,
"Say ah."

jer <--  like the first 3 letters of Jerry Lewis' name? The "er" would be
like the "er" in ferry

Bah-jer, wow! I'd *never* have guessed at *that* pronouncation. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:25:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

In a message dated 97-08-15 11:25:10 EDT, you write:

<< >>	Also, how about breaking some of the survival skills down a bit? Or is
 >>this a bad idea? Some could be fishing, build shelter, locate water,
 >>recognise edible food from the surrounding flora and fauna, etc.
 >
 >I think I'm in the minimalist camp. 

 	Fair enough, I take your point. What skill would you roll against here?

Wouldn't Perception help with the above example? (And maybe Recon too) I
 don't think you could break Perception down, because by definition that
 skill is generic in that you are looking for you don't know what, so you
 can't be too specific in its general application anyway, not even in real
 life (whatever that is ;-) )
  >>

I would first think through what task is being performed...  say. Fishing.

Now I scan the list of skills and find Hunting. I also find Biology. Bow
Combat (spear fishing?). Recon? Stealth. Survival. Throwing.

Of those, Bow Combat, Survival, and Throwing are all default skills so anyone
can use them.

If I have to, I'll tell the players that for fishing, they don't have line or
hooks. I might suggest what skills they have on hand. They should then come
up with a scheme to go fishing.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:41:52 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Traveller Books wanted 

************************************
I'm Sorry if this is the wrong forum for this, but the
rec.frp.marketplace
is non responsive, so I thought I would go to the source of all
traveller
mayhem and seek the answers to my quest.

        I am looking for a copy to purchase of each of these items:

        DGP:
        101 Robots
        Grand Survey
        Grand Census

        Megatraveller Journal #1,#2 (I have #3) and any others above #3

        I am willing to make trades for items if that may interest
anyone, and I
will pay any reasonable price since these are out of print.

        Please respond to: scspieker@ncweb.com

        Thank you,
        Scott Spieker
*************************************

Wouldn't we all....and more besides.  If you ever find a source...let
the rest of us know....after getting everything you want first....I want
some items so badly I don't trust myself to not undercut someone
else:-}  I actually say that in jest, but wonder how much truth it might
contain if really put to the test....drat my human nature....

TT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:01:41 -0400
From: David <dbussey@bbtel.com>
Subject: Re: Clever Player, DRAT!

- --------------8B718CB45ECCDE5090DC3C55
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>     They've already done it once, you're right, they don't want to do it again.
> hehehe  Okay, a rock painted black it is then, something that doesn't fracture
> when heated and holds heat well.  OC creating this kind of differential in heat
> in an enclosed space is going to cause convection isn't it?
>
It will but...  The air temperature inside will be higher, therefor air
*pressure* will be higher... colder air will be forced out of the bottom
of the balloon (when the flap on top is closed).  The flap can let hot
air out (kinda like a few people I know) to drop altitude... to gain
altitude, continue heating the rock and close the flap.  That's pretty
much it.  Since hot air rises (also...this is how some people get
promoted) you don't have to worry about losing it unless the flap is
open, the convection current gets closed off.


- --------------8B718CB45ECCDE5090DC3C55
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They've already done it once, you're right, they don't want to do it again.
hehehe&nbsp; Okay, a rock painted black it is then, something that doesn't fracture
when heated and holds heat well.&nbsp; OC creating this kind of differential in heat
in an enclosed space is going to cause convection isn't it?</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>


<P>It will but...&nbsp; The air temperature inside will be higher, therefor
air *pressure* will be higher... colder air will be forced out of the bottom
of the balloon (when the flap on top is closed).&nbsp; The flap can let
hot air out (kinda like a few people I know) to drop altitude... to gain
altitude, continue heating the rock and close the flap.&nbsp; That's pretty
much it.&nbsp; Since hot air rises (also...this is how some people get
promoted) you don't have to worry about losing it unless the flap is open,
the convection current gets closed off.
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

- --------------8B718CB45ECCDE5090DC3C55--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:47:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: Re: Femicide

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:
<snippage>
> In the areas under discussion, femal children are
> being killed off.  What is goijg to happen in about 20 years when there is
> a huge varience in the normal 54-46 female/male distrubution?  My biggest
> fear is the social disruption as the hordes of men go looking for wives,
> and the find that they have to fight over them.

	Let me try to inject a little information into this discussion.  
I actually read a paper about this phenomenon a few years ago.  It was 
(IIRC) written by none other than Amartya Sen, a very well regarded (and 
feminist) Harvard professor.  Sen found that while the difference in the 
gender ratio was, overall, statistically significant, it was by no means 
overwhelming.  Furthermore, since the data was drawn from kindergarten 
records, there was some question about whether the change resulted from 
improvements in the male infant mortality rate.  Apparently male babies 
suffered disproportionately from certain causes of death, and 
improvements in living standards might have ameliorated them.  Whatever 
the case, the gender ratio was _not_ radically skewed.
	This means it is unlikely that we will face hordes of horny 
Chinese men streaming out into the world in search of brides.  Or that 
horny Chinese men will overthrow their gov't, or any other such silliness.

	If you are looking for some catastrophe to spice up your future 
history, how about a massive internet flame/spam-war started by some 
moron in Singapore that escalates so badly that it crashes the global 
network and takes the financial system with it. :-P

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:09:55 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk> wrote,
> Also, how about breaking some of the survival skills down a bit? Or is
>this a bad idea? Some could be fishing, build shelter, locate water,
>recognise edible food from the surrounding flora and fauna, etc.

To which Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu> responded,
>I think I'm in the minimalist camp. I'd prefer to have more "generic"
>skills, instead of a large number of definitive skills.

I think FUDGE handles this well, with broad or narrow skill definition
depending on preference.  People can do something similar with the 
Traveller skills by using optional cascades; so Bruce could treat
Survival as a cascade for his campaign, someone else could do the same
for Medical, and so on.  Once you get to this level of detail, though,
people have all sorts of different ideas as to what the individual
skills should be, so T4 should probably stay fairly minimalist.

Meanwhile, Michael D. Peters <Letterworks@Comten.com> wrote,
> One skill from th CT days that is not present in T4 is the Steward
>skill. While I admit that it was a weak skill, "care and feeding of
>passengers", I think that it has some potential if expanded.

I think this is an example of what I would call a "Professional" or
"Specialist" skill - one useful for a particular job, but not likely to
be used much in adventuring situations.  Note I don't say "never" -
keeping passengers from panicking is important in a crisis, and you
mentioned the cargo packing situation.  Also, a good steward would have
other skills - Psychology, Medical-1, and some sort of performance
skill, for instance.

I wonder if it's worth having an "open" skill (called, maybe, Specialist
to contrast with JoT)?  Maybe allow one skill per term after the first
to be taken as Specialist provided the character story allows it (GM
decides)?  Leave it up to the GM to decide when use of the skill is
appropriate.

This could be indicated on the character sheet as

    Specialist (Steward)-2
    Specialist (Chef)-3
    Specialist ("Seamstress")-6

John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:31:43 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Asia in Traveller

> 
>     ObTrav; I've always wondered why there was so little representation of
> Asian Cultures in Traveller, especially the Solomani.  We're only talking about
> around half of all the Terran born Humans for the next century or two after
> all.
> 
> Stephen

How about Hiroshi I?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:34:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: Marcus Teter <marcus@geminga.physics.montana.edu>
Subject: 21st century Terra, et al.

Well,
	I guess the best thing to be said about the subject is that it
definately opens a real can of worms.  Any possible future could be argued
ad infanitum without coming to a consensus.  Here is a suggestion: make
the history of the next 50 years as vague as possible (letting each Ref.
fill in the details as they see fit); afterall, the historical aspect
could be turned upside down next year.  Recall that 20 years ago the idea
of the Soviets collapsing without major bloodshed (meaning millions dead) 
or WWIII was so laughable that no game of the time even hinted at the
idea; however, since it did happen, any attempt at trying to project
details for the next 50 years will be vulnerable to these sudden and
surprising events.  If being vague about the next 50 years is a tollerable
solution, what key events should be mentioned happening between now and
2047?

	Here are a few suggestions:

	Invention of fusion 
	Established Lunar Colonies
	At least a manned mars landing, maybe gearing up for colonization.
	Expanding 3rd world economies. 
	Corporate expansion into space based industries.
	UN space organization formed, though little way to enforce rules.
	Development of at least .001G constant acceleration drives.

With this in place, a global social-political-economic structure can be
determined, allowing some room for unexpected global players (don't worry 
how they got into the game, just that they are in).  Then a detailed
history can be written from that point to the invention of J-drive and
Contact with the Vilani.

Notes:

..001G drives are a must.  It brings all the solar system within reach but
still leaves the feeling of isolation in the outer-solar system.

The expansion of the 3rd world economies is because of fusion (avoiding
some of the difficulties with industrialization).  

I think that at least intitialy, the nation states should have little
control over the major Corportations.  Perhaps a major event c.2050 can
change that situation, giving UN some authority over the corporations.

The next 10 years probably should represent a major expansion of activity
throughout the solar system, with colonies and bases springing up all
over.


Comments?
Suggestions?

TANSTAAFL, YCHTBE,
Marcus A. Teter

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1696
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, August 15 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1697



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Question for Marc
Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)
Re: Spacefaring nations and economics
Re: RoM Tech! (the undead beastie rears its head again!)
Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War
Terran BioWar
Re: M:E21
Re:Traveller Books wanted 
Re: Jump Drives
Re: Re : Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg
Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War
T41 Skills Draft Introduction: Steward Skill
Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:45:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Question for Marc

In a message dated 97-08-15 17:12:39 EDT, you write:

<< Question for you, Marc--if the new task system is to be Stat + Skill 
 lvl, and skill levels are increased to a range of 1-15, then how is 
 a Difficult task going to be obtained with 2.5D?
  >>

Does this question assume that the mid range for a skill is 7? Although it is
possible for a skill level to reach 10 or higher, the typical skill level is
not appreciably more than in CT. 

Assuming average Characteristic and Skill-2, then there is a 57% chance of
success on a Difficult task. It seems to me half chance of success is
difficult. Take twice as much time and the chance of success is 83%.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:29:30 -0700
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

>If you want a system that follows reality (which is what the
>term "hard sf" *means*) then it *has* to be complex, simply because
>reality is complex.

Oh, cripes.... give me a break.... like anybody in here has any idea
what all of this bullshittium technology is going to look like
anyway.... Making it 'complex' in the name of 'reality' is simply
anal-retentivness for its own sake. Militant attitudes like yours have
crippled the game system to the point where nobody besides a gearhead
game-geek loaded down with old TNE supplements can make use of it.

>Don't blame the book for not being what you want whernm what you want
>isn't what the book is supposed to be. If you want simple, then use
>SSDS or QSDS. If you want to get "down and dirty" with the nitty-gritty
>details, then you have to be prepared to learn how to use the system.

Jesus H. God-dancing CHRIST, Leonard! Did you read ANY of my post? I
mean really READ it? I can FIGURE OUT what the flying #$%^% a
light-second is in real life, and so can anybody: BUT HOW THE FLYING
FRACK DOES THIS IMPACT ON THE GAME SYSTEM???!!!????

Are you wholly impervious to logic? IG should have done this and IG
should have explained that and IG should have done some other damned
thing.... AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO IS INFURIATED AT THE FUNDAMENTAL
TIME & MONEY-WASTING ABSURDITY OF A GAME SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR
BETTER THAN A YEAR AND HAS SPAWNED THREE SHIP DESIGN SYSTEMS TWO OF
WHICH CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT ARE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE AND IS UTTERLY
USELESS & NONSENSICAL?

What am I to make of the weapons charts in the back of Starships? What
are all those light-seconds columns with the little numbers under them?
Why must I generate a very large number for hull armor or weapons damage
using SSDS and then convert it to a smaller number using a chart in the
back of the book -- why not simply generate the stats in T4 terminology
to begin with? 

If a G-hour is what you use to push a missile, how do I measure
acceleration in a missile using G-hours? That is OK for figuring fuel
CONSUMPTION, goddammit, but HOW DO I CATCH A SHIP WITH IT?????? That IS
the idea behind a missile, isn't it? Where oh where in the $100+ worth
of book that I have do I find out how to do this using G-hours?

Oh, it will all be made right in the NEXT frigging book, will it? I
should just keep buying their shit and cross my fingers and hope that
the NEXT book will make it all make sense while the gearheads on the
digest keep condescendingly telling me that it is IG's responsibility --
not the gearheads writing and editing the books -- to conform to what
the GEARHEAD AUTHORS come up with? And mine, as well, to comprehend
their pages full of incomprehensibel formulae IF I WANT TO DO ANYTHING
BEYOND PRODUCE A TL12 SHIP AT 5000 TONS MAX?

Since what we have is simply recycled TNE -- at the militant insistance
of the gearheads on this digest, mind you -- and since IG is now going
to have to resurrect some God-awfully complex space combat system to
conform to it, and since TNE was stillborn on the market as soon as it
came out and doomed the company that produced it to a premature
bankruptcy, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THIS MIGHT INFLICT THE SAME FATE ON
IMPERIUM GAMES?

Do you expect anybody to buy a game system that is not only unplayable,
but gets MORE unplayable with every publication? FUCK technology in the
real world -- how about a playable GAME SYSTEM???!??

Marc Miller... Jesus Christ, guy... if you are reading this, then you
have GOT to understand that you have got to quit slavishly adhering to
what the people on this digest are telling you. They have led you up the
primrose path. T4 is fucked, broken, and incomprehensible to anyone NOT
on the digest. Under their expert ministrations, you have produced a
game system which will drive your up-&-coming market of gamers in their
late teens away in droves. If you want IG to see another Christmas past
this one, you must do three things and you must do them immediately:

1) Make Wildstar's QSDS the standard ship-building system. Extend it on
either end tonnage-wise so that you can build anything from grav bikes
to dreadnaughts, just as you could in MegaTraveller. Also extend it from
TL's 9 to 15, so that you can build 90% of the hardware in the Traveller
universe without being forced into using a hellishly complex design
system -- that should be OPTIONAL. Right now it is MANDATORY. That is
RETARDED.

2) Revamp FF&S 2 so that all the results are presented in QSDS stats
WITHOUT any lame-assed 'conversions' and use terminology throughout
which is NOT absent in the other supplements or contradictory to the
language used in them. (Do you need a professional tech editor with some
gaming experience? I'M available....)

3) Offer the techies on this digest a small royalty to produce Excel
spreadsheets for both PC & Macs so that ordinary folks can design
individual FF&S 2 components, then plug them into QSDS. Put the
spreadsheets on a CD-ROM and bundle it with the book. Do not charge more
than $30 for the results. If you have to eat a bit of a loss to do it,
tough cookies. IG is about where Apple is... the best product around
mismanaged straight into the ground... and it desperately needs some
triage.

In the event that you can't tell, I've pretty much given up on T4. FF&S
2 was to be the magic bullet tht would make everything OK, and I've been
waiting for it for six months. Now I am being told that not only is it
filled with high-tech meaningless slang that is inapplicable anywhere
else within the game system, I am being told it's YOUR fault for not
explaining this gearhead drivel and MY fault for not learning how to use
it properly....

I've got my entire Trav gaming group from high school waiting in the
wings, waiting to hear when my military-oriented campaign is going to
start up. I've got to tell them it ain't gonna happen, because I can't
build anything and don't have an all-inclusive combat system to use it
even if I did. You haven't lost one customer. You've lost five. Christ
only knows how many time this scene is being repeated all over the U.S.

The original Traveller came in thin, floppy, user-friendly booklets that
were inexpensive to buy and easy to read for your average-bright teen on
an allowance. It would have been great to go back to that level of
simplicity, with a more complex design/combat system hovering in the
background for those who wanted to make use of it. Instead, we've got
what we have... which is precisely zero. I don't understand how to build
things using either of the custom ship design systems we have and no
combat system to make use of the data they present. This is assinine and
a blatant waste of time and money.

I'll get flamed out of the water for daring to air my myriad
exasperations on this digest, but I literally no longer care..... I did,
as recently as a few days ago.... You can do what you want and listen to
who you want. It's your game and your company and your legacy to the
role-playing community that is going up in a cloud of frustration and
failure. I quit.

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:05:22 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: Spacefaring nations and economics

> There's an interesting White Dwarf scenario called Tower Trouble which had
> a look at a terran beanstalk. Interesting criminal based adventure which
> could result in having some dire environmental consequences. The beanstalk
> touched down in the US, IIRC. I would advocate that a beanstalk is included
> on Terra in the supplement.


Gayombe City, Equador

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:57:45 -0400
From: Daniel Ray Lane <drlane@pinn.net>
Subject: Re: RoM Tech! (the undead beastie rears its head again!)

> 
> Leroy,
> 
> I would reverse the two proportions - Traveller is 95% background, else it
> wouldn't have survived four different rules versions.
> 
> Dom

I concur.  Were Traveller mostly game mechanics, we couldn't say
that we are still playing it. The CT rules were THAT Traveller.

Traveller is the IMPERIUM.  It is every idea we have read, heard, or
spoken conceived around Cleon's dream.  Sol has significance against
the larger tapestry of Sylea, and while other fictional backgrounds
may mimic aspects of Traveller, it is the Imperium and its surrounds
that seem to fire our imaginations.  Why else would we argue so
fervently about individual details of what is "canonical" or not.

The mechanics may come and go, but the Imperium remains. 

- -Dan Lane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:17:41 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

At 11:23 PM 8/14/97 +0000, Eris wrote:
><snip>
>
>The second half of the period begins when the Vilani Sector Governor
>finally decides to "pacify" his new Terran subjects, now occupying huge
>sections of the sector.  The Terrans resist, call on their home
>countries/corporations for support, and while that always worked before it
>doesn't work too well now with entire Vilani fleet elements being committed
>for the first time.  The colonies' parents appeal to the Confederation and
>for the first time the whole of the Solomani population is mobilized
>against the Vilani.
>
><snip>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Sounds much like Texas in the early 1800s. Already settled, though sparsely,
by the Spanish for nearly 200 years, government invites the new kids on the
block (the Americans) to settle where there is room; then when the cultural
differences between the Old World Spanish (now Mexican) goverment style and
the American perception of government begins to create problems, the
settlers reject government authority (an American Tradition), the Mexican
government sends in the troops to restore order and we have the Alamo. The
rest is canon,er,history.

Now, would the 1st Interstellar War have an Alamo? Where would it be?

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:56:34 -0400
From: Wesley Esser <wesley@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Subject: Terran BioWar

Re the dies-off rates and such - wasn't the Plague of Duskir exactly
what we are talking about?  If memory serves, it was not long after
initial Terran-Vilani contact, and had a devestating effect - 90% die
off rates and such.  There was a LONG thread about this on the TML
several years back, related most specifically on why the 3I was so much
more distinctly Solomani than Vilani.  All of my Traveller stuff is
currently packed away, but I am sure someone can look up the exact date
of the Plague.  Anyway - it seems that this kind of die off level is
canonical.

Wes Esser

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:02:20 -0400
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: M:E21

> "Those are not intelligent radio signals emminating from Barnard's
>Star.  You are mistaken.  Have a nice day."

Many people often mistake the planet Venus for a flying object.  You only
saw the planet Venus through some rising swamp gas.

I love this.  Of course, I'm still all for the Roswell crash being a Vilani
scout ship too.  

" Yes sir, we found some bodies in that crash, but they were human and I DO
NOT think they are Russians. "

John





It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake.  The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:49:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re:Traveller Books wanted 

Scott,

Just FYI to aid you in your search....

>         DGP:
>         Grand Survey
>         Grand Census

DGP's World Builder's Handbook is an updated version of these two 
books with additional information.  You may want to look for that 
item, which might be easier to find since it was published later, 
than looking for these two books separately.

>         Megatraveller Journal #1,#2 (I have #3) and any others above #3

The last issue of MegaTraveller Journal was issue #4 (which is 
incredible, by the way, and well worth looking for).  There are no 
issues above that.

Hope this was helpful,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:59:44 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

At 09:42 AM 8/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:44 AM 8/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> Sorry to bring up an old topic...but...
>>
>>I was reading some old CT stuff last night, and I came across Annic Nova...a
>>ship that does not require jump fuel. Instead, it has to charge up it's
>>accumulators for 1D6 weeks before jumping.
>>
>>On the list, some people came up with the rather cool (I thought) "Hydrogen
>>Bubble" theory about jump fuel - but if you consider Annic Nova canon, it
>>appears that this cannot be the case. Does anyone know if the Ancient ship
>>in Secret of the Ancients requires H2?
>
>I seem to recall that it did not.

The description on page 28 of Secret of the Ancients for the drives reads:

"DRIVES: The hull also contains the ship's drives (power plant, jump and
maneuver drives).  These drives are inaccessible from the capsules, and are
integral with the hull structure.  There are no fuel tanks, fuel being fed
through teleportation portals from the ship's pocket universe as needed."

I have always imagined the jump drives using about 45% of their jump fuel
to initially open the rift to jump space, about 10% to prime and maintain
the jump grid before and during jump and the remaining 45% to open the rift
back into normal space.


>At a certain tech level, you become capable of gating things into and out
>of jump space via pocket universe technology.  For a brief period,
>technologically, you can only gate in H2, as the strong nuclear force is
>disrupted crossing the JS boundary.  (handwave handwave)
>
>Even after interstellar teleportation becomes possible and easy, it still
>requires a large pocket universe, and some hard to build hardware fairly
>nearby, so if this remote fueling technology is feasible, it might be
>useful over a larger distance.
>
>The ancient ship and the Annic Nova both used this technology.  The AN did
>used solar power, as then it did not need any outside sources, aside from a
>teleporter dropped into a gas giant somewhere.
>
>>I'm trying to come up with a pseudo-technical description of J-drives,
>>including a description of the necessity of H2 and the size limit of
>>jump-capable vessels (the 100std limit).
>
>The size thing I explained with space curvature.  Even if the vessel were
>smaller, it would require a grid sized for a 100t ship and at least 10t of
>hydrogen fuel.  The H2 is used to build an unstable pocket universe inside
>jump space.
>
>FWIW, I have stable pocket universes in jump space as a technology akin to
>creating a more normal pocket universe, and thus not usually worth doing.
>If Grandfather wanted, he could make a jump ship that needed no fuel, but
>he has no need to.
>Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
>"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
>results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
>"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
>
>

I also think that within the jump grid, the ship functions normally as
opposed to the accelerated movement rates (and who knows what other
effects) within the 36 known levels of jump space (or universes).  Since
the portals will work to transport you from one universe to another
(albeit, its own pocket universe), it should have no trouble working while
in jump space.  Obviously the portals do work in jump space on the ancients
ship, since the power plant is still getting fuel to run and there is no
mention that you cannot travel between capsules while in jump space.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:17:44 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg

At 09:44 AM 8/15/97 +0000, Andy Brick wrote:
><snip>
>
>2300AD canon has established that you can get atoms to tunnel, and that the
>only reason why this was not discovered by earlier physicists was that the
>effect is adversely affected by gravitational fields. In other words, we
had to >break free of the Earth and get into space in order to discover the
Jerome >effect.
>
2300AD canon, yes. But what I am doing is adding a Stutter Warp technology
to a Traveller universe, therefore extrapolating two DIFFERENT
implementations of the same underlying theory. Standard Jump technology is
the MACRO implementation of the Gravitically Induced Space Time Displacement
Effect, Stutter Warp is the MICRO implementation of that same principle.   

>My understanding is that electrons are small emough to fall through "holes"
>in space time and hence instantaneously tunnel from one place to another. It
>is my belief that all ( ! )  a stutterwarp drive does is provide a field that 
>-
>
>(a) expands these holes in space time to accept atoms, molecules, whatever
>(b) aligns the holes rather like iron filings in a magnetic field to ensure
>everything arrives at the same place.
>
>The (a) part may be unnecessary - the holes may simply be big enough in the
>absence of a gravitational field. 
>

This approach sounds rather more like the Keyhole drives from FF&S1, only
instead of wormholes light years long, lots of little ones exist that ships
can drop thru under the proper conditions. Handly explains why some deep
system probes have simply disappeared enroute to Mars and beyond. 

><snip>
>
>I can coordinate many particles inside a magnetic field to align and move
>simultaneously, and I have not violated Heisenberg to do so. I can force
>many electrons to flow down a copper wire at the same time without
>violating Heisenberg. Both of these are particle effects on the macroscopic
>scale, and Heisenberg does not preclude them. Heisenberg prevents
>me tracking every single particle in the field/wire - and I do not need to 
>know this information to displace the particles to another location.
> 

Fields that induce all electrons in the human body to all head in the same
direction at the same time tend to result in death by electrocution, dont they?

>Same with Stutterwarp in 2300AD. There you can induce a whole ship to
>move when placed in a field. I suspect that Heisenberg doesn't matter there
>either - I align the "holes" in space time by placing them in a strong
>enough field, and the ship then "topples" through the holes to the destination.
>

Again, this sounds closer to Keyhole drives.

>> I have not heard of proton, neutron or atom tunnelling. 
>
>In real life, you are correct. However, just like J-space is accepted
Traveller >canon, atom tunnelling is accepted 2300AD canon. Dr. Jerome, the
inventor of >the stutterwarp drive, managed to induce a hydrogen atom to
jump. This 
>is 2300AD's only real deviation from the current understanding of physics.
>
>> A magnetic bottle, like a gravitational bottle, bounds a space, and
effects >>all objects within that space equally.
>
>Actually, a magnetic ( or any other field ) does not affect everything
>equally. Sure, there are equipotential contours within the field, but the
field >itself varies with distance from the source.
>

Agree.

><snip>

>
>It's not the analogy, it's the explanation. Stutterwarp uses the electron
>tunnelling effect, scaled up.
>

In standard 2300AD setting; which I do not use.

>> Like flying; birds fly, 747s fly (generally), implementation is
>> vastly different.
>
>But the laws that govern flight are universal. Both the bird and the 747
>have to obey the laws of aerodynamics, and must generate lift etc. And the
>implementation is actually not that different - both have aerofoils, both
>are streamlined to minimize drag, both have tailplanes to provide better
>control and so on. Yes, the 747 has jet engines and a bird uses muscle
>power, but even these are merely different thrust agents.
>

True; basic principle is Gravitically Induced Space Time Displacement;
implementation, Macro version, is Jump, implementation, Micro version is
Stutter Warp. Just like aerodynamics, same rules, different implementation
methods.

>> This gives me a comfortable feel in explaining how Jump works; others may
>>be able to percieve the standalone, existant space concept better. In fact,
>>the recent thread on Jump Space being an Ancient Artifact fits rather well
>>with my idea of Jump Effect being derived from gravity's ability to create
>>pocket  universes. 
>
>This whole pocket universe thing is flawed in my opinion. To create a
>pocket universe you need to exclude it from normal space time. As far as I
>know, the only thing in nature that achieves this is a black hole, and I
for >one would not like to travel through one of these. 
>
>Now I don't know what TL 27 + Gravitics tech can do, but creating black
>holes artificially seems a little extreme to me. 
>

Scecrets of the Ancients did not say that Grandfather had created Black
Holes, but that he expended huge quantities of energy to 'pinch' off section
of space time for his teleportation networks and STARSHIPS (page 31,
Adventure 12). My opinon is that Jump Drives, Stutter Warp Drives, Gravitic
based Thruster Plates and such depend on finding a means and a material that
will create a ARTIFICAL gravitational signiture such that space time is
distorted in a controlled way, AS IF a mass existed, to produce the effects
for which each of these devices is noted. 
 
>> This Ancient Artifact Jump Space would be various Pocket
>> Universes, like the one in Secret of the Ancients, created to shorten
>> distance between two points in real space. 
>
>I seriously doubt that Yaskoydray would have had the ability to create many
>pocket universes, and in any case he certainly would not have had the
>ability to do so to start with. Also, Traveller Canon suggests that he
created >only two or so pocket universes - one in the Regina system, and one
elsewhere >about the Droyne homeworld. The sheer energy required to achieve
this effect >must have been incredible, and I doubt that Grandfather would
have had the >resources to build a pocket universe to order for every single
jump route in >known space.

Not one for every jump route; a single one that radically distorts space
time so that all stars within the Milky Way are reachable, if the path and
technique are known. The core of the Milky Way is now presumed to be a
massive Black Hole, Yaskoydray could have exploited the natural distortion
effect of this to create a pinched off pocket universe that touches every
star system but which has distances between any two points radically reduced.

>Also, would this mean that jump drives only work in areas visited by the
>Ancients ? 

See the above; his efforts may have resulted in an effect over a much larger
area that was intended when he started.

>If so, one would expect Jump Drives to fail once beyond the borders of the
>old Ancient domain. The Zhodani Core Expeditions may have been a non
>starter if they had not followed the Ancient routes to the Core, if this
>was the case.
>

Not if my preceeding comments are held to be true.

><snip>
>
>A pocket universe depends on the small power output from a Jump Drive ? So
>why didn't they all collapse during the Long Night when interstellar travel
>was next to non-existent ? Or during the Virus Era when only vampire fleets
>would be using them ? Are saying that infrequently used jump routes will
>eventually become unusable if jump equipped ships don't travel along them ?
>

Not depends on it; the pocket universe has it's own energy to run on; but
each ship passing thru, by design, must inject additional fuel into the
power system.

Not just the Long Night, but the dark period between the end of the War of
the Ancients and the rise of the Vilani may have caused some of the pocket
universe to collapse. Or perhaps they expanded as the pinch effect weakens.
Perhaps that is why the maximum jump is now 6; the underlying pocket
universe is so starved for energy that any links greater than 6 have
expanded and broken. If the current intelligent races do not realized what
is happening, every every Jump drive may cease to work. Perhaps that is why
the Zhodani are trying to reac the Galactic Core. They have realized that
underlaying pocket universe is not be maintained in a stable manner and must
be repaired.

>> The 2d maps are due to the fact that actual position in real
>> space has no relationship to where the system intersects the pocket
>> universe. 
>
>Hmm. I admit that I do not like the 2D maps of Traveller, but then it's
>a necessary abstraction of reality to make the game playable, rather
>than to fit in with some theory of Jump Drive.
>

Ah, but by comming up with an explanation for the 2d maps that peacefully co
exists with the FTL travel mechanism for the game, I avoid having to explain
that 3d maps aren't used because it is too much trouble. A good handwave
doesn't just fix the current rough spot, but should smooth the way for
several spots to come.

>> Gives Han Solo's claim 'to having made the Kessel run in less than
>> 6 parsecs' a different meaning: he found a pocket universe path to Kessel
>> that was shorter that the normal 6 parsec path.
>
>The "Kessel run" quote is simply a classic example of sci-fi getting 
>science wrong - the parsec is a unit of distance, and was used 
>by George Lucas as a unit of speed. There are other examples
>of such things in Star Wars ( X-Wings perform tight acrobatic
>manouevres in space, but there is no air to push against to do this
>,etc. , etc. )
>

Again, a good handwave has covered (or recovered) from less than accurate
writing. Based on this pocket universe theory, Han's statement still retains
the meaning of distance, instead of speed. He had found a shorter way thru
the pocket universe to Kessel, effectively making the run in less that the
standard distance. 

>> I haven't chucked out the published history of Traveller; just giving it
>my own reading that makes it easier for me to work with.
>
>There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone interprets Traveller as they
>see it, and there's no reason why my view of FTL travel should be any
>more correct than anyone elses, including yours. FTL is science fiction,
>not science fact, and so the discussion is largely moot anyhow.
>

The truest of statements yet; however, for those who are newer to Traveller,
or who just want different ideas to work from, exchanges like this between
people who have differenting interpretations may help them develop their own
ideas. It can also help us refine our own ideas a little bit more.

I had not tracked closely on the Jump Space as an Ancient Artifact thread,
skimming it because I my pet theory did not contain a Jump 'Space'; however,
after our exchange, the idea of Jump 'Space' being a massive pocket universe
created by Grandfather, has intrigued me enough to put a to do on my list
for reveiwing the digests containing this thread. 

As I comtemplate our exchange, I may even find parts of it that will lead to
refinements in Professor Davros' Theory of Jump Effect.

>Andy Brick
>exeus@compuserve.com
>http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/
>
>
>

And a good day to you, sir.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 20:20:50 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: 1st IW: The Bio-War

On 08/15/97 at 10:17 PM,  Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net> said:

>Sounds much like Texas in the early 1800s. Already settled, though sparsely,
>by the Spanish for nearly 200 years, government invites the new kids on the
>block (the Americans) to settle where there is room; then when the cultural
>differences between the Old World Spanish (now Mexican) goverment style and
>the American perception of government begins to create problems, the
>settlers reject government authority (an American Tradition), the Mexican
>government sends in the troops to restore order and we have the Alamo. The
>rest is canon,er,history.

I *did* rather have that in mind. ;->

>Now, would the 1st Interstellar War have an Alamo? Where would it be?

Remember the <pick a good system>! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 20:19:18 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: T41 Skills Draft Introduction: Steward Skill

On 08/15/97 at 09:09 PM,  John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk> said:

>> One skill from th CT days that is not present in T4 is the Steward
>>skill. While I admit that it was a weak skill, "care and feeding of
>>passengers", I think that it has some potential if expanded.

Am I the only GM that uses the Steward skill as a DM when determining how
many passengers you can book onto the ship?  I've never used Admin or
Carousing for that purpose.  Stewards are in charge of making sure the
life-support systems are equiped and in good working order.  They are in
charge of food preperation, waste disposal, crew and passenger
service/entertainment, cargo loading/unloading, and ship security. Whether
Marc includes Steward into T4.1 or not, I'll be continuing to have it in
the games I run.

About detailed/general skills, I guess I lean toward detailed but I
understand the advantages of having a few general skills that cover broad
areas of operation.  For example, we have an Engineering skill, we don't
have Engineering Cascade:  Jump Drive, Maneuver Drive, Power Plant Cascade: 
Fusion, Fission, Internal Combustion.  

In that vane, though, why don't we have a Bridge skill?  In instead we have
Pilot, Astrogator, Sensors, Communications...these are all starship Bridge
skills and in most *realistic* services a Bridge Officer would get some
training in all of them.

Of course, once upon a time the Gunnery Skill *was* a cascade..you had to
choose Laser, Particle, Meson, Sandcaster, etc as a specific skill whenever
you got Gunnery.

I think it might be worth considering looking at Professions, in addition
to Careers.  A Professional Spaceman would have certain skills (Vacc Suit,
Survival:  Zero-G & Vacuum, & a Specialty Profession (Bridge, Engineer,
Steward, Technician, Gunner) that have a number of skills) *all* at some
minimum level.  A Professional Merchant would have Trader, Broker, Bribery,
Admin, Streetwise, & Carousing.  I think we could define a number of
Professions all with certain required skills. This wouldn't take the place
of running a character through the career process, but it might be a good
shortcut method of generating specific types of characters, and at least
good guidelines for what skills a player should get for their characters.

Just some thoughts,

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:44:12 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

At 02:29 PM 8/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>If you want a system that follows reality (which is what the
>>term "hard sf" *means*) then it *has* to be complex, simply because
>>reality is complex.
>
>Oh, cripes.... give me a break.... like anybody in here has any idea
>what all of this bullshittium technology is going to look like
>anyway.... Making it 'complex' in the name of 'reality' is simply
>anal-retentivness for its own sake. Militant attitudes like yours have
>crippled the game system to the point where nobody besides a gearhead
>game-geek loaded down with old TNE supplements can make use of it.

Well this answers some questions that I have had, FFS2=Crap put that one
down at the bottom of the list for purchase. This is the only review of
FFS2 that anyone has posted. It has been what two weeks and no other
reviews, despite the various and sundry excuses ie UPS is holding it back,
Gencon delayed people getting it.

>>Don't blame the book for not being what you want whernm what you want
>>isn't what the book is supposed to be. If you want simple, then use
>>SSDS or QSDS. If you want to get "down and dirty" with the nitty-gritty
>>details, then you have to be prepared to learn how to use the system.
>
>Jesus H. God-dancing CHRIST, Leonard! Did you read ANY of my post? I
>mean really READ it? I can FIGURE OUT what the flying #$%^% a
>light-second is in real life, and so can anybody: BUT HOW THE FLYING
>FRACK DOES THIS IMPACT ON THE GAME SYSTEM???!!!????

So far it *suposed* to be in *future* re release of book *what ever*. The
meshing of the three plus ship/vehicle systems.

Question: If CSC/VDS is supposed to superseded by FFS2 why are they still
publishing and selling CSC/VDS? ?And who will try and explain to someone
that just bought CSC/VDS that it has been superceded by another product he
will have to buy? From what I have been told the tow systems are alien to
each other totally.

>Are you wholly impervious to logic? IG should have done this and IG
>should have explained that and IG should have done some other damned
>thing.... AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO IS INFURIATED AT THE FUNDAMENTAL
>TIME & MONEY-WASTING ABSURDITY OF A GAME SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR
>BETTER THAN A YEAR AND HAS SPAWNED THREE SHIP DESIGN SYSTEMS TWO OF
>WHICH CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT ARE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE AND IS UTTERLY
>USELESS & NONSENSICAL?

You are not alone in this feeling Jay

>What am I to make of the weapons charts in the back of Starships? What
>are all those light-seconds columns with the little numbers under them?
>Why must I generate a very large number for hull armor or weapons damage
>using SSDS and then convert it to a smaller number using a chart in the
>back of the book -- why not simply generate the stats in T4 terminology
>to begin with? 

Sounds like it is truly FUBAR system.

>If a G-hour is what you use to push a missile, how do I measure
>acceleration in a missile using G-hours? That is OK for figuring fuel
>CONSUMPTION, goddammit, but HOW DO I CATCH A SHIP WITH IT?????? That IS
>the idea behind a missile, isn't it? Where oh where in the $100+ worth
>of book that I have do I find out how to do this using G-hours?

You synchronize your G-Hour Clocks and wait until midnight.<G> It really
sounds like FFS2 has been over designed.

>Oh, it will all be made right in the NEXT frigging book, will it? I
>should just keep buying their shit and cross my fingers and hope that
>the NEXT book will make it all make sense while the gearheads on the
>digest keep condescendingly telling me that it is IG's responsibility --
>not the gearheads writing and editing the books -- to conform to what
>the GEARHEAD AUTHORS come up with? And mine, as well, to comprehend
>their pages full of incomprehensibel formulae IF I WANT TO DO ANYTHING
>BEYOND PRODUCE A TL12 SHIP AT 5000 TONS MAX?
>
>Since what we have is simply recycled TNE -- at the militant insistance
>of the gearheads on this digest, mind you -- and since IG is now going
>to have to resurrect some God-awfully complex space combat system to
>conform to it, and since TNE was stillborn on the market as soon as it
>came out and doomed the company that produced it to a premature
>bankruptcy, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THIS MIGHT INFLICT THE SAME FATE ON
>IMPERIUM GAMES?

Well is that not a Fat Lady heading toward the Microphone?

>Do you expect anybody to buy a game system that is not only unplayable,
>but gets MORE unplayable with every publication? FUCK technology in the
>real world -- how about a playable GAME SYSTEM???!??

Yes playability is important if not the most important.

>Marc Miller... Jesus Christ, guy... if you are reading this, then you
>have GOT to understand that you have got to quit slavishly adhering to
>what the people on this digest are telling you. They have led you up the
>primrose path. T4 is fucked, broken, and incomprehensible to anyone NOT
>on the digest. Under their expert ministrations, you have produced a
>game system which will drive your up-&-coming market of gamers in their
>late teens away in droves. If you want IG to see another Christmas past
>this one, you must do three things and you must do them immediately:

But have to realize something Jay, Mark does not run anything, he is just a
figurehead, he sold his rights to Traveller for the duration of IG's reign.
He does not "Call The Ball" as IG's propaganda has cranked out. Ask him if
he ever stopped a POS product from rolling off the publishing lines, if he
really "called the ball" he could have stopped the FFS2 before it was sent
to the publishers, but he did not because he does not "call the ball" at
all, he is just paid lackey of IG.

>1) Make Wildstar's QSDS the standard ship-building system. Extend it on
>either end tonnage-wise so that you can build anything from grav bikes
>to dreadnaughts, just as you could in MegaTraveller. Also extend it from
>TL's 9 to 15, so that you can build 90% of the hardware in the Traveller
>universe without being forced into using a hellishly complex design
>system -- that should be OPTIONAL. Right now it is MANDATORY. That is
>RETARDED.

Yes to the above even though is shits on CSC/VDS.

>2) Revamp FF&S 2 so that all the results are presented in QSDS stats
>WITHOUT any lame-assed 'conversions' and use terminology throughout
>which is NOT absent in the other supplements or contradictory to the
>language used in them. (Do you need a professional tech editor with some
>gaming experience? I'M available....)

Also increase the playtest group and playtest time frame.

>3) Offer the techies on this digest a small royalty to produce Excel
>spreadsheets for both PC & Macs so that ordinary folks can design
>individual FF&S 2 components, then plug them into QSDS. Put the
>spreadsheets on a CD-ROM and bundle it with the book. Do not charge more
>than $30 for the results. If you have to eat a bit of a loss to do it,
>tough cookies. IG is about where Apple is... the best product around
>mismanaged straight into the ground... and it desperately needs some
>triage.

Well this would make it easier for those nongearheads to build "canon"
designs.

>In the event that you can't tell, I've pretty much given up on T4. FF&S
>2 was to be the magic bullet tht would make everything OK, and I've been
>waiting for it for six months. Now I am being told that not only is it
>filled with high-tech meaningless slang that is inapplicable anywhere
>else within the game system, I am being told it's YOUR fault for not
>explaining this gearhead drivel and MY fault for not learning how to use
>it properly....

I am going to have to start up a MT type of game their are few things that
I can import but not enough to keep me interested in Traveller.

Hey did someone not say that Steve Jackson Games is going to make a GURPS
Traveller? Could have possibilities if IG can keep their hands out of it.

>I've got my entire Trav gaming group from high school waiting in the
>wings, waiting to hear when my military-oriented campaign is going to
>start up. I've got to tell them it ain't gonna happen, because I can't
>build anything and don't have an all-inclusive combat system to use it
>even if I did. You haven't lost one customer. You've lost five. Christ
>only knows how many time this scene is being repeated all over the U.S.

Hey I have a MT excel spreadsheet are you interested in a copy?
I also recommend GGG3 for personal weapons design, and it has spreadsheet
available too.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1697
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, August 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1698



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Interstellar Wars: The Man On Horseback
Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction
Re: M: E21
Re: Mesoamerican casualty rates
Re: Question for Marc
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: T4 _is_ Traveller (was Re: Is T4 Traveller?)
Re: E21 Chronology
Re: Asia in Traveller
Re: yet more RoM TL bandwidth
Agent uncovered?
Re: Biowar
Re: Load-lifting, etc.
Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:48:46 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Interstellar Wars: The Man On Horseback

IIRC, there is an interesting quote about military dictatorships from a
book on the subject: 

"You can conquer an empire on horseback, 
But you can't rule from there" . 

The Terrans were great at conquering the First Imperium, but trying to run
it as a military dictatorship...only asking for trouble. 

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:37:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: T41 Skills Draft Introduction

In a message dated 97-08-15 19:29:21 EDT, you write:

<< >One skill from th CT days that is not present in T4 is the Steward
 >skill.  >>

And Steward will be in T4.1.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:05:52 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: M: E21

Moin Volker A. Greimann,

> I'd think i'd be pronounced Bah-jer. (If i got my American phonetics 
> right)

	Or "buyer" which sounds similar.

	PS : Bayer is one of those famous Nazi-Companies, made money
	     with KZ-workers, and got even bigger after Marshall plan.
	     Bayer is a main player in Atlantik-Verein which is the
	     secret government of germany.
	     Traditional products are Asperin, Kokain and Heroin. 
	PPS scratch last 5 lines of RAF propaganda ;-)
- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:19:51 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Mesoamerican casualty rates

Moin John R. Snead,

> I'd imagine that the Solomani victory would be similar.  In many cases, a
> Solomani fleet jumps in expecting a battle with the fleet of a populous
> industrial world and find a world with 50%+ mortality who desperately need
> medical supplies and will happily surrender to anyone with doctors. 
> 
> That would be a pretty grim era to game...   

	so a typical warship will have more doctors "sanitoeter,
	kannste den noch toeter toeten" (sorry for that german joke ;-)
	and are playing "shields up - denver clan in space opera"

	BTW I still think that some company carried geeniert viruses
	    to certain places to "open the planet for colonisation"

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:57:20 +0000 ()
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Question for Marc

Moin Marc,

	first of all game system should stay compatible, so please
	no level 15 skills. Characteristics between 2 and C and
	skills between unskilled-0, JoAT-0, 1 and 6 producing an
	asset between 2 and 18.

> Does this question assume that the mid range for a skill is 7? Although it is
> possible for a skill level to reach 10 or higher, the typical skill level is
> not appreciably more than in CT. 
> 
> Assuming average Characteristic and Skill-2, then there is a 57% chance of
> success on a Difficult task. It seems to me half chance of success is
> difficult. Take twice as much time and the chance of success is 83%.

	For T4.1 I would advise to drop half die (its not playable !)
	I would also advice to drop staggering. I would tell them that
	there are 4 ways to resolve tasks, and that its up to the refree
	to decide how the dice should become rolled. 

	To place some limits: max skill level (for humans) = 6
	                      max DMs applied +/-5

	--------------------------------------------------------------

	MT Way : 2d6 -	3+ simple    now called	easy
			7+ routine	"	average
			11+ difficult	"	difficult
			15+ formidable	"	formidable
			19+ imposible	"	imposible

	Usage: Player rolls 2d6 and add (characteristic / 5)+skill+DM,
	       refree compares to UTP difficulty and decides.

	Advantages: Skills have a higher value than characteristic

	--------------------------------------------------------------

	GDW Way: 1d20   =<asset*4+dm routine   now called	easy
			=<asset*2+dm average	"	average
			=<asset*1+dm difficult	"	difficult
			=<asset/2+dm formidable	"	formidable
			=<asset/4+dm imposible	"	imposible

	Usage: Refree calles for an asset.  Player adds
	       characteristic+skill, rolls 1d20 and tells
	       difficulty level he matched. Refree deceides
	       if its enough to solve the task.

	Advantage: fast resolution if prepared.
	Disadvantage: needs d20, multiplication and division.

	--------------------------------------------------------------

	T4.1 Way: 5d6   first easy
			second average
			third difficult
			forth formidable
			fifths imposible

	Usage: Refree calles for an asset. Player adds
	       characteristic+skill+DM, and rolls 5 dice
	       adding them loud.

	Advantage: no multiplication, no d20.
	Disadvantage: high stat JoATs have good chance even in
	              imposible situations.

- -- 
	kraehe@bakunin.north.de			www.hb.north.de
		  " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:09:56 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:23:00 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: 

On 14 Aug 97 at 18:24, SD Mooney wrote:

>> Yes - SAAB was good on the ideas, and the effects weren't bad.. sort
>> of a soft 2300..! ;-)
>
>        "Stay alert! Watch your six! Don'w watch S:AAB"
>                                - A badge seen at the SF club office
>                                  when making preparations for FinnCon 97

   Evidently sour grapes because a Finnish squadron gets whacked in an
episode of S:AAB...

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:10:51 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: T4 _is_ Traveller (was Re: Is T4 Traveller?)

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes: 

>    I'm sorry, but I feel that the _Anomalies_ has put things in as good
>a perspective of the past Traveller (Classic) references, hence the change
>of the topic I've posted this under.

   Everything I've seen so far on this list would indicate that
_Anomalies_ caused just the opposite to happen--it just blew a lot of
smoke and confused many issues.

><JOKE>
>    T4 _is_ Traveller.  Period.  End of Story.  There, I've saved the whole
>    Droyne race! :)  Next nail-biting concern?
></JOKE>

   You're right about one thing here Leroy--anyone saying that Marc
Miller's Traveller is *Traveller* shouldn't be taken seriously.  They
are two seperate games.  No amount of hand waving will make them one and
the same.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:12:32 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: E21 Chronology

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes:

>>Here's the canonical timeline (with corrections), courtesy of 
>>Mr. McKinney's site:
>>
>>[<snip>]
>>- -2510 (AD2007) Archimedes settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
>>               Solomani Rim) established as a small mining base. 
>>               TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>>- -2508 (AD2009) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA) 
>>               established on Terra (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, Alien 
>>               Module 6 - Solomani, p. 12.
>>- -2501 (AD2016) Copernicus settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 
>>               Solomani Rim), established by America, Britain and 
>>               Japan. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.
>[<snip>]
>>- -2460 (AD2057) Solomani bases throughout the Terran solar system 
>>               (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, MT Imperial Encyclopedia, 
>>               p. 6.
>>
>[<snip>]
>>   My speculative additions/subtractions/changes:
>>
>>- -2503 (AD2014) First manned expedition to Mars.  An international
>>               effort, it will be a primary factor leading to...
>>- -2502 (AD2015) United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA)
>>               established on Terra.
>
>
>Why do you want to change this date from the above?

   Anyone who thinks that there will be a level of international
cooperation enough within the next 12 years to establish UNSCA isn't
living on the same Earth I am.  Same for the establishment of Archimedes
settlement (from a writeup that is 13 years old).  Far too optimistic
given the current status of Earth's various space programs.

   Assuming that everyone can get serious about Mars and not just talk
about it, getting there by 2014 will take international cooperation.  I
see *that* cooperation eventually leading to the establishment of UNSCA.

>>- -2498 (AD2019) First permanent colony on Luna.  For apparent reasons
>>               (all dealing with budgetary considerations), the 2007
>>               date isn't going to happen.
>
>
>Are you saying that the above colonies (Archimedes, Copernicus) were not
>permanent?

   I'm saying that we are going to be lucky to get back to the Moon at
all by 2009, let alone establish a permanent base.  Correct me if I'm
wrong, but not even the Americans have a plan to go there before that
date.

>>- -2467 (AD2050) The ESA LRCM should leave somewhat later, thus 
>>               allowing technology a chance to advance a bit further.
>>               I would place it more toward AD2070-75. 
>
>
>I see no reason to change this date either.

   Again, a date established years ago based on overly optimistic
projects.

>>Unlikely       Bases throughout the Solar System.  While it is
>>               probable that the Terrans would have throughly 
>>               *explored* the Solar System by 2057 (with a combination
>>               of manned and unmanned vessels), there would not be
>>               any particular incentive to establish bases everywhere.
>
>
>Nearly the same amount of time before today's date, people were saying
>that rockets would never fly as well.  I think you underestimate the
>amount of growth we have already gone through, and will be able to go
>through in as short a period of time.

   About 10 years ago, I did a paper for a history class in which I
discussed the some of the major cultural changes that had occurred in
the latter 20th century.  While doing my research, I stumbled across a
1963 article in which the leading figures of the science-fiction
community (Asimov, et al) were asked what they thought the future held
for humanity in space.  To a man, they agreed that by now (1997) we
would certainly have permanent bases on the Moon and Mars, and would
have sent manned expeditions to all the planets of the inner system.  I
also could point out Arthur C. Clarke's _2001_, which had us travelling
to Jupiter only a 4 years from now (we don't even have the partially
completed space station Clarke mentions started, nor have we established
a single permanent base from which we can search for monoliths).

   I was born in 1963.  Some of my first memories are of Apollo 8, and I
can remember the exact moment with perfect clarity when Neil Armstrong
stepped on the Moon.  I also watched as during the 1970s the U.S.
basically dismantled a large portion of its space program and left all
the optimistic predictions of the sci-fi writers unfulfilled.  While I
am not a total pessimist when it comes to manned space travel, I am a
realist.  A revision of some of the dates for Terran exploration and
"conquest" of the Solar system are badly needed in light of a more
modest space tech development schedule and more realistic budgetary
projections.

>>Other notes:   We can safely hypothesize that a scientific revolution
>>takes places in the mid-21st century that yields spacecraft-sized fusion
>>power plants, gravitics, and most importantly, enviromental controls
>
>
>Or early 21st century ...

   On my own personal Earth history timeline, we are about to enter a
time of troubles that will make Bosnia look like a modest warm up
excercise.  The good news is that technological development will for the
most part continue, though at a slower pace.  As the time of troubles
ends in the 2030s, revolutionary technological change will occur,
eventually pushing Earth to the Traveller equivalent of TL 9, and then
TL 10 by the end of the century.

>We could use 3D star maps too. <G>

   Not in our lifetime.  I don't relish the prospect of having to
conduct my Traveller scenarios down at the local planetarium.  :-)

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:14:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Asia in Traveller

In a message dated 97-08-15 21:36:34 EDT, you write:

<< 
 How about Hiroshi I?
  >>

That's what I love about Traveller. There's always an answer.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:29:33 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: yet more RoM TL bandwidth

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes:

>I find it ironic that I have been planning phase II of the Great RoM Tech
>Level discussion, and interestingly enough, I had decided to pick the
>Interstellar Wars for my starting point.  Then, here comes the thread. B-)

   <groan>  

>TL 12 RULE OF MAN (Maximum TL at anytime in the Rule of Man was 12)
>
>This view's assertion is primarily based upon tables that were prefaced by
>the words "tech levels achieved by the major interstellar powers."  (BTW,
>I view _this_ Vilani Imperium, as decadent, if not more, than the Chanestin
>Kingdom of M:0.)

   Don't be so dismissive.  There is other evidence that is just as
convincing in other sources.

>War begins, and luckily, the Terrans had built
>up large caches of Jump fuel, to last the eight years of the First
>Interstellar War.  Luckily, captured Vilani technology gave the Terrans
>an even keel in Tech Level against the Vilani--both are TL 11 by the time
>the Second Interstellar War begins.

   An important point you've missed is that this is a classic
Vietnam/Afghanistan scenario.  The Terrans are fighting a *total* war,
where as the Vilani are barely treating this like a minor border
skirmish.  It wasn't until the Terrans have a superior navy (in terms of
technology if not in size) that the Vilani start to take the whole thing
as a serious conflict.

   The major advantages of the Terrans can be summed up as follows:

   1) Better jump capability (by the 8th IW)

   2) Better use of automated systems (including TL 12 robots which
allow for a reduction in the number of crew required to run a ship)

   3) Better armament in the form of the meson gun (by the 8th IW)

   4) Better leadership (command structure of the Terran Navy much less
bureaucratic)

   5) Better concept of the nature of the conflict (Terrans knew that
this would be a fight to the death)

   These advantages alone would be sufficent for the Terrans to have the
capability to defeat the Vilani without having to resort to TL 13+ magic
trick explanations.

>A HIGHER TECH RULE OF MAN (Maximum TL agrees with T4, i.e. 15 or more)

<snip>

>Note: this latter view is entirely consistent with all of the information
>presented in June and July to this list: CT, MT, TNE, and T4.

    Sorry, it simply doesn't hold water.  While through some handwaving
you can make it work for MMT, it doesn't work with CT, MT, or TNE unless
you ignore the accumulated evidence to the contrary, which is
considerable.

   DGP did Traveller both a great service and disservice with their
products.  While on balance their contribution was positive, there are
some situations where it was apparent that the writer of a particular
piece wasn't completely versed in Traveller canon or chose to ignore it.

   Another point on TL: the tech level rating system is for the use of
***referees*** and ***players*** to give them something to gauge what is
being described to them in terms of a world's (or society's) overall
technology in relation to others.  It is a number that exists *outside*
the context of the Traveller universe.  No character, not even
Grandfather would know that they are TL 10 or 15 or whatever.  Yes, I am
aware that some Traveller and MMT publications list 'laser rifle-13' and
'handcomputer-11' but those numbers are for *your* reference--in the
eyes of your character, they would just be a laser rifle and
handcomputer.  While they would be aware that the laser rifle
incorporates more advanced technology than the hand computer, they would
not make statements like, "yeah, the rifle is two tech levels higher
than the computer".

   Yours is yet another example of why it would be better if _Marc
Miller's Traveller_ and _Traveller_ (CT, MT, TNE) were treated as
completely seperate games.  In that way it would be easier to justify
the points you bring up.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:50:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Agent uncovered?

>From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
>Subject: Mesoamerican casualty rates
....
>but also due to  the fact that they had some similiar diseases from Llamas
>and Alpacas. They had just as many people get sick but much lower death
>rates.
>Most moooodern (sorry, "O" key stuck, not a pun, but I left it anyway) 

  Ah. Clearly a K'kree stand-in for Mr. Komolsky. Note the references to
various herd animals. Better mooove on now, you've blown your K'kover.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:49:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Biowar

Hello,
>is just as likely, for example, that the Vilani will be different
>enough from Terran stock to prove most unpalatable to Terran diseases
>... in other words, it seems just as likely that the Vilani would be
>immune.

  From what I understand, this is effectively impossible given what
we know - they diverged moderately after 300 K-a back , don't appear
to have been extensively geneered, and were still Solomani interfertile.

>If *I'm* making assumptions (and I admit I am), please recognise the
>ones that are being made by those on "your" side as well! Fair's fair.

  A good point - perhaps contributors (I won't say "sides") could indicate?
About the colonic bacteria thing - wouldn't exported lab monkeys have been
candidates for their gut bugs being modified to minimize or eliminate the
threat of harmful mutant variants (this is Grandfather-tech, after all)?

  The only "side" I take in this is that I have concluded that BW agents
were not decisively/extensively used prior to the effective collapse of
the Vilani, if then (though it would explain a great deal at that point).

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:49:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Load-lifting, etc.

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Load-lifting, etc.

>For space launches that can use the advantages of being near the
>equator, Hawaii isn't bad. And the US *does* own islnds (like Palmyra
>atoll) that are even closer to the equator.

  For a well-developed economy the little isalnds and atolls are
of very limited use - no port or air facilities, and little room
for same. Hawaii is both big enough, equipped, and well located. 

>that says the resources on the seafloor belong to *all* nations just
>about guarantees that your seafloor production could get severely
>"taxed" for the benefit of third world countries.

  I'm familiar with the arguments, but the final issue is "So, what?".
Asides from the indubitable :) social justice of it, there's no chance
in hell of a Western MNC paying up if it's "home" gov't doesn't want
it to. What are they (TW/UN) going to do? Bill `em? Sue, maybe?

>>Chile is awfully poor. And the terrain is the pits for transport.
>>Remember, a spaceport needs good transportation links.

  Actually, Chile has a coastline, which even if a particular site
lacks nearby deep port facilities, is more easily modifiable than
a rocky outcropping in the middle of SFA. Chile is also probably
richer than a number of other countries being bandied about.

  Hmm, how to improve a port near a Chilean site? They're not
Amcits, so how about the Alaskan solution? :>

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:00:20 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

At 02:29 PM 8/15/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>If you want a system that follows reality (which is what the
>>term "hard sf" *means*) then it *has* to be complex, simply because
>>reality is complex.
>
>Oh, cripes.... give me a break.... like anybody in here has any idea
>what all of this bullshittium technology is going to look like
>anyway.... Making it 'complex' in the name of 'reality' is simply
>anal-retentivness for its own sake. Militant attitudes like yours have
>crippled the game system to the point where nobody besides a gearhead
>game-geek loaded down with old TNE supplements can make use of it.

So don't use it.  Very simple.  I don't use the parts of the game I
dislike, and nobody held a gun to your head to force you to buy or use FFS2.

As a "gearhead game geek" (I am offended by that by the way), let me make
this simple.. why are you trying to stop me from designing things?
Everything I design goes up here or on my pages or gets pitched to JTAS..
I'm doing the work for you.

>>Don't blame the book for not being what you want whernm what you want
>>isn't what the book is supposed to be. If you want simple, then use
>>SSDS or QSDS. If you want to get "down and dirty" with the nitty-gritty
>>details, then you have to be prepared to learn how to use the system.
>
>Jesus H. God-dancing CHRIST, Leonard! Did you read ANY of my post? I
>mean really READ it? I can FIGURE OUT what the flying #$%^% a
>light-second is in real life, and so can anybody: BUT HOW THE FLYING
>FRACK DOES THIS IMPACT ON THE GAME SYSTEM???!!!????

I read your post, and you asked quite directly what these terms meant.
Sorry if I misunderstood you. 

FFS2 was never intended to include game rules, just design sequences; I had
thought this was quite clearly stated.

>Are you wholly impervious to logic? IG should have done this and IG
>should have explained that and IG should have done some other damned
>thing.... AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO IS INFURIATED AT THE FUNDAMENTAL
>TIME & MONEY-WASTING ABSURDITY OF A GAME SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR
>BETTER THAN A YEAR AND HAS SPAWNED THREE SHIP DESIGN SYSTEMS TWO OF
>WHICH CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT ARE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE AND IS UTTERLY
>USELESS & NONSENSICAL?

Funny how we have an active ship design contest that attracts entries using
all three of those design systems...  I use FFS/SSDS.. others prefer QSDS.
Perhaps you want everyone to lower themselves to the level you are
comfortable with?  Sorry, I find FFS2 to be a very interesting project, and
am just starting to really get into it.

Take my Terrapin-class exploratory merchant.  Designed using FFS, you could
do much the same thing using QSDS.  The same components, the same rules.
In fact, I'll probably go back over the Terrapin for the design of the
Ramble-On Rose to take advantage of the new systems in FFS2.

>What am I to make of the weapons charts in the back of Starships? What
>are all those light-seconds columns with the little numbers under them?
>Why must I generate a very large number for hull armor or weapons damage
>using SSDS and then convert it to a smaller number using a chart in the
>back of the book -- why not simply generate the stats in T4 terminology
>to begin with? 

It was stated a very long time ago that FFS2 would not contain game rules.
Sorry you missed that, and sorry that the concept of the book escaped you,
but don't scream at us for your mistake.

>If a G-hour is what you use to push a missile, how do I measure
>acceleration in a missile using G-hours? That is OK for figuring fuel
>CONSUMPTION, goddammit, but HOW DO I CATCH A SHIP WITH IT?????? That IS
>the idea behind a missile, isn't it? Where oh where in the $100+ worth
>of book that I have do I find out how to do this using G-hours?

A space combat missle is expalined on pg 48.  You design the thrust agency
on pg 65.  Each G of acceleration requires 1 G-hour per hour of acceleration.

One more time, NO RULES IN THIS BOOK.  Did you read the blurb on the back
before buying?  If not, cavet emptor!

>Oh, it will all be made right in the NEXT frigging book, will it? I
>should just keep buying their shit and cross my fingers and hope that
>the NEXT book will make it all make sense while the gearheads on the
>digest keep condescendingly telling me that it is IG's responsibility --
>not the gearheads writing and editing the books -- to conform to what
>the GEARHEAD AUTHORS come up with? And mine, as well, to comprehend
>their pages full of incomprehensibel formulae IF I WANT TO DO ANYTHING
>BEYOND PRODUCE A TL12 SHIP AT 5000 TONS MAX?

Since we're the ones writing the books.  If you have such a damn problem,
write something.  QSDS can be extended out easily beyond 5000dt and TL12.

>Since what we have is simply recycled TNE -- at the militant insistance
>of the gearheads on this digest, mind you -- and since IG is now going
>to have to resurrect some God-awfully complex space combat system to
>conform to it, and since TNE was stillborn on the market as soon as it
>came out and doomed the company that produced it to a premature
>bankruptcy, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THIS MIGHT INFLICT THE SAME FATE ON
>IMPERIUM GAMES?

I am really getting sick of the "militant gearhead" line.  We enjoy using
the design sequences, and freely share what we build.  I am a high-school
dropout who has a real problem with math beyond very simple algerbra; yet I
have managed to learn enough to build enjoyable and useful equipment and
ships.  Forgive me if I fail to cry in my beer for you.

>Do you expect anybody to buy a game system that is not only unplayable,
>but gets MORE unplayable with every publication? FUCK technology in the
>real world -- how about a playable GAME SYSTEM???!??

For the last time, this book is not about the game system!  Marc Miller is
rewriting the game system, and from what I've seen it is very playable.
What FFS2 and us *evil* gearheads are trying to do is provide a consistent
technological base to use.  This is important to avoid the problems of
other SF games where technical items were pretty much used as magical
gifts, with no real rhyme or reason to their design.  In Traveller, we are
at least making the attempt to make a realistic, coherent, and logical
backround.

You want easy magic techno-toys, I'm sure there are copies of Star
Frontiers sitting in the used bin at your FLGS.

>Marc Miller... Jesus Christ, guy... if you are reading this, then you
>have GOT to understand that you have got to quit slavishly adhering to
>what the people on this digest are telling you. They have led you up the
>primrose path. T4 is fucked, broken, and incomprehensible to anyone NOT
>on the digest. Under their expert ministrations, you have produced a
>game system which will drive your up-&-coming market of gamers in their
>late teens away in droves. If you want IG to see another Christmas past
>this one, you must do three things and you must do them immediately:

The day Marc listens to me is the day I stop treatment, 'cause then I will
have seen it all.   In case you haven't noticed, Marc is currently
rewriting the entire T4 rulesbook, and asking us our opinions.

>1) Make Wildstar's QSDS the standard ship-building system. Extend it on
>either end tonnage-wise so that you can build anything from grav bikes
>to dreadnaughts, just as you could in MegaTraveller. Also extend it from
>TL's 9 to 15, so that you can build 90% of the hardware in the Traveller
>universe without being forced into using a hellishly complex design
>system -- that should be OPTIONAL. Right now it is MANDATORY. That is
>RETARDED.

QSDS is a perfectly useful design sequence, several THUDDD entrants use it
to the exclusion of anything else.  Now that FFS2 is out, I'm sure that it
will be extended to cover ships from TL6 to TL21.  All QSDS is is a set of
prebuilt modules that you stick together.. those modules were designed
using FFS!  So, all you are doing is getting the hard work done for you.

>2) Revamp FF&S 2 so that all the results are presented in QSDS stats
>WITHOUT any lame-assed 'conversions' and use terminology throughout
>which is NOT absent in the other supplements or contradictory to the
>language used in them. (Do you need a professional tech editor with some
>gaming experience? I'M available....)

Unacceptable, since I don't use QSDS.  Evidently, you seem to expect the
Traveller community to cater to your whims.  Sorry.

>3) Offer the techies on this digest a small royalty to produce Excel
>spreadsheets for both PC & Macs so that ordinary folks can design
>individual FF&S 2 components, then plug them into QSDS. Put the
>spreadsheets on a CD-ROM and bundle it with the book. Do not charge more
>than $30 for the results. If you have to eat a bit of a loss to do it,
>tough cookies. IG is about where Apple is... the best product around
>mismanaged straight into the ground... and it desperately needs some
>triage.

How magnaminous of you to volunteer IG to take a loss.  You seem to expect
a lot of people to do a lot of work for you.  There are several excellent
spreadsheets avalible right now for ship design.. If you like, I could send
you the one that I use.

>In the event that you can't tell, I've pretty much given up on T4. FF&S
>2 was to be the magic bullet tht would make everything OK, and I've been
>waiting for it for six months. Now I am being told that not only is it
>filled with high-tech meaningless slang that is inapplicable anywhere
>else within the game system, I am being told it's YOUR fault for not
>explaining this gearhead drivel and MY fault for not learning how to use
>it properly....

FFS2 is difficult, no arguement, but the results are well worth the effort.

>I've got my entire Trav gaming group from high school waiting in the
>wings, waiting to hear when my military-oriented campaign is going to
>start up. I've got to tell them it ain't gonna happen, because I can't
>build anything and don't have an all-inclusive combat system to use it
>even if I did. You haven't lost one customer. You've lost five. Christ
>only knows how many time this scene is being repeated all over the U.S.

If you need weapons, try 
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/guns.html

If you want ships or vehicles, mail me and we'll work something out.  As
for the system, Marc is working on that, and doing it right this time, or
would you prefer that he rush out a jobber like last summer?

>The original Traveller came in thin, floppy, user-friendly booklets that
>were inexpensive to buy and easy to read for your average-bright teen on
>an allowance. It would have been great to go back to that level of
>simplicity, with a more complex design/combat system hovering in the
>background for those who wanted to make use of it. Instead, we've got
>what we have... which is precisely zero. I don't understand how to build
>things using either of the custom ship design systems we have and no
>combat system to make use of the data they present. This is assinine and
>a blatant waste of time and money.

...and I remember when High Guard came out and we spent hours at the game
store designing ships, awed at the new possibilities.  From the beginning,
traveller has had a strong gearhead streak, your personal problems with
that will not change the fact that a good percentage of us enjoy building
things.

>I'll get flamed out of the water for daring to air my myriad
>exasperations on this digest, but I literally no longer care..... I did,
>as recently as a few days ago.... You can do what you want and listen to
>who you want. It's your game and your company and your legacy to the
>role-playing community that is going up in a cloud of frustration and
>failure. I quit.

I'm not flaming you for your opinions.. I have very strong feelings on IG
and it's direction myself; but on your insulting manner.  You seem to feel
that you are helpless before the tide of gearheads, did anyone ever say you
needed anything other than QSDS?  No, all the other systems are optional.
Want vehicles?  The system in CSC is usable.  Or, since you are of the
opinion that nobody can possibly b.s. out the future of technology
reliably, why not just make it up?  It's your game, I'm not going to stop
you.  But please don't insult me and my players who enjoy using systems
like FFS2 and 3G3 to create a living world.

You quit?  Fine, that seems to be the easiest path, which you seem to prefer.

As an aside, I am working on a review of FFS2, but due to multiple doctor
appointments its been hard to find time to sit down and really go through
the book.  My first impression is that it is very complete, though poorly
formatted, and could have used a few examples of the design sequnces.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
| Gearhead & Planetologist, Traveller since 1977 |
|     Inquistor Magnus, Royal Commission for     |
|               Canon Correctness                |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
| "I believe in my heart that all astromoners    |
|  should be forced to go outside on summer      |
|  nights, just to admire the sky."  -Carl Sagan |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1698
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Saturday, August 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 1699



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)
Re: Re : Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg
Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)
Re:Traveller Books wanted 
Re: Mileu:E21
Re: M:E21
RE:Femicide
S:AAB (was: Re: Mileu:E21)
FF&S2 Review (long)
Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:29:46 -0500
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

JayStr wrote:

[a lot of harsh truths]

I'm sad to say that Jay is right on a great many things.  The survival
of Traveller as a desirable product is threatened.  The game system is
over-designed, under-explained, and much harder than it has to be.  I
still don't really understand either of the Ship Design Systems.  We
have tables that aren't explained and explanations without tables.
Recipe for disaster.  Several game store owners I have talked to about
T4 have said tings like "It's like welcoming back an old friend . . .
but incomprehensible to those not familiar with CT or the rest.  Two are
so upset about the First Survey/Mileu 0 deal that they are drastically
cutting their orders of all IG products, not that its selling
particularly well in the first place.

The ONLY two things Traveller has going for it is the enthusiasm and
energy of veterans such as those on this mail list and the great core
ideas that make the heart of Traveller.  But there is too much shit that
isn't working.

Mr. Miller's obviously working hard to correct the problem to the extent
that he can.  His work with this list and willingness to expose his
ideas and writings to open criticism is commendable and exemplary.  I'm
worried that IG isn't behind him and behind Traveller as much as they
should be.  I'm also worried that even if a miracle cure is achieved,
the market has been burned and dried up.  T4.0 looks to be in ruins.
Game dealers are burned on IG.  TSR's got their new system for
futuristic campaign's rolling out in the fall (Alternity is the name,
and the first campaign setting looks to be similar to an Traveller a bit
- - but its been a while since I talked to the game designers over there).

I hope that Traveller can survive, but I'm not very optimistic.  I'm not
quitting on Traveller.  Not yet anyway.  But I have to leave the
maillist for other reasons (I'll be travelling ;)  Maybe I'll talk to
you all in the future.  Maybe not.

Good travells.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:03:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Re: Stutterwarp & Heisenberg

Guys, how about we inject a bit of science *fact* here...

Electron "tunneling" is *because* of the Heisenberg principle. It's
just a case of the uncertainty in position shifting the "most probable"
location from one side of a potential barrier to the other.

Also, *any* size object can "tunnel". It's just that the probability
for a macroscopic object is infinitesmal.

It's all quantum mechanical wave functions, anyway.

Now for the science fiction...

Now as to "jump space" existing, consider that canon is that the space
*already exists*. The drive just gets the ship into it, along with a
"bubble" of normal space. 

Think of a ship in a 2d universe moving into another 2d universe and
taking a small (circular or oval?) piece of the original space with it.
Or it could be in a 3d universe, but that's another matter.

Here's *my* take on the way the jumpspace bubble works.

I rather suspect that the "bubble" around a ship in jump space would
*not* have a boundary, rather it'd wrap back around itself (picture the
2d ship on the surface of a small sphere). Of course, to make the
conditions in the ship normal, the spacetime around the ship would be
"flat" (the sphere is flattened into a lens shape so the ship is on a
more or less plane surface). This drastically increases the curvature
elsewhere. Since curvature of space is the same thing as gravity, this
explains what happens if you get too far from the surface of the ship.
The tidal forces from the excessive curvature tear you apart and the
fragments leak back into normal space.

The "lens" shape is "necessary" *because* things that hit the "edge"
leak back into normal space. This allows a small bubble. Otherwise you'd
need a bubble big enough to let the heat radiated by the ship disperse
greatly without frying the ship. 

Also a "spherical" (actually hyperspherical) bubble would be *really*
weird for the ship using it. You'd see your ship in all directions. Sort
of like turning it inside out and blowing it up to the size of the
bubble.

This also answers the questions about starting a second jump drive
while in jump. Trying to build another "bubble" inside the first one
will distort both of them and tear everything apart. Bye-bye ship!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:39:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

In mail you write:

>>If you want a system that follows reality (which is what the
>>term "hard sf" *means*) then it *has* to be complex, simply because
>>reality is complex.
>
> Oh, cripes.... give me a break.... like anybody in here has any idea
> what all of this bullshittium technology is going to look like
> anyway.... Making it 'complex' in the name of 'reality' is simply
> anal-retentivness for its own sake. Militant attitudes like yours have
> crippled the game system to the point where nobody besides a gearhead
> game-geek loaded down with old TNE supplements can make use of it.


I hate to tell you this, but *most* of the technology in FF&S (just
about everything except contra gravity, thruster plates, jump drives
and meson guns) is well understood *now*. And thus the rules are based
on this. And it *is* complicated, because changing one parameter
usually requires changes in others.

>>Don't blame the book for not being what you want whernm what you want
>>isn't what the book is supposed to be. If you want simple, then use
>>SSDS or QSDS. If you want to get "down and dirty" with the nitty-gritty
>>details, then you have to be prepared to learn how to use the system.
>
> Jesus H. God-dancing CHRIST, Leonard! Did you read ANY of my post? I
> mean really READ it? I can FIGURE OUT what the flying #$%^% a
> light-second is in real life, and so can anybody: BUT HOW THE FLYING
> FRACK DOES THIS IMPACT ON THE GAME SYSTEM???!!!????

Did *you* read *my* post? I pointed out that we had to use real units
because IG didn't tell us what the "game" units would be.

> If a G-hour is what you use to push a missile, how do I measure
> acceleration in a missile using G-hours? That is OK for figuring fuel
> CONSUMPTION, goddammit, but HOW DO I CATCH A SHIP WITH IT?????? That IS
> the idea behind a missile, isn't it? Where oh where in the $100+ worth
> of book that I have do I find out how to do this using G-hours?

That depends on the combat system that IG didn't give us.

Using the vector movement system...

You have to figure out what acceleration the missile is moving at in a
"turn" (whatever length that is). Then you plot the movement of both
the ship and the missile for that turn. Next turn the missile's
guidance system may decide that a higher or lower acceleration is
better. The ship may change its accel as well. At some point either the
missile hits the ship, or one or the other runs out of fuel. If one
runs out of fuel, it continues in a straight line at a constant
velocity. It may still be able to get away (if it's the ship) or to hit
(if it's the missile), but it's unlikely.

The missile has a maximum acceleration, given by the type of drive it
has. But it can run slower and often this is a good idea. Run at low
accel until you get "close" (and fool the ship into thinking that you
are too slow to worry about). Then kick in full power for the final
run.

> Since what we have is simply recycled TNE -- at the militant insistance
> of the gearheads on this digest, mind you -- and since IG is now going
> to have to resurrect some God-awfully complex space combat system to
> conform to it, and since TNE was stillborn on the market as soon as it
> came out and doomed the company that produced it to a premature
> bankruptcy, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THIS MIGHT INFLICT THE SAME FATE ON
> IMPERIUM GAMES?

<sigh>

The complex system is for the folks who *want* a complex system. Now
that we have FF&S2, it's possible to *extend* SSDS and QSDS. But the
idea is to have *several* levels of complexity, so that more people can
be satisfied.

> In the event that you can't tell, I've pretty much given up on T4. FF&S
> 2 was to be the magic bullet tht would make everything OK, and I've been
> waiting for it for six months.

Then you weren't paying attention. It was stated from the *start* that
FF&S would be "gearhead" level! That's why I'm ragging on you so much.
You were told *in advance* what to expect, and then get mad when that's
what you get.

> I've got my entire Trav gaming group from high school waiting in the
> wings, waiting to hear when my military-oriented campaign is going to
> start up. I've got to tell them it ain't gonna happen, because I can't
> build anything and don't have an all-inclusive combat system to use it
> even if I did.

And where did you get the idea that FF&S would *be* a combat system?
Not from the list!

I can understand that you are upset. But I can also see that many of
your complaints amount to complaining that FF&S is not something that
no one ever *claimed* it would be!

The lack of definitions sucks. But as has been said elsewhere, we were
on a tight schedule and assured that the definitions would be added.
What were we supposed to do? Waste time doing something that we weren't
*supposed* to do?

But nobody is going to apologize for the "techy" level of the product.
Not when it was specifically *stated* that it was going to be a
gearhead product!

Nor is anyone going to apologize for there not being a combat system,
not when that wasn't supposed to be in there either. We'd have *loved*
to have had IG come up with a combat system. It would have let us
simplify a lot things... Since we didn't know things like turn lengths,
and got conflicting info about ranges, we had to use things like light
seconds, kilometers, and so forth. And we couldn't round off a lot of stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:31:16 -0400
From: Tom Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Traveller Books wanted 

> Just FYI to aid you in your search....
>
> >         DGP:
> >         Grand Survey
> >         Grand Census
>
> DGP's World Builder's Handbook is an updated version of these two
> books with additional information.  You may want to look for that
> item, which might be easier to find since it was published later,
> than looking for these two books separately.
>
Alas, it is no more "available" than the others....I've searched long
and hard for WBH.  Nobody ever seems to be willing to part with it (and
rightly so when one observes how useful it is via all the discussion of
world building on the TML)  Maybe someday archeologists will dig up a
long lost cache of 100 WBHs so those of us not forunate enough to own it
can snap them up.  Until then Scott, myself, and many others can only
dream.......

Not very useful.....but hey its late.  Maybe I should go to sleep
instead of read TML....
Nahhhhh!

TT

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:47:47 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Mileu:E21

SD Mooney writes:

>>   Except that jump drive was developed by UNESCO, and then licensed to
>>the various nation governments.
>
>Curses. Sunk by a canon. ;-) NB would the US get it at a really bad rate
>(along with the UK) for cutting the UNESCO contributions... ?

   Not bad enough to stop the Americans from taking that detour for
"scientific reasons" to Barnard to make "first contact" with the Vilani.

>Physics in it did suck though...

   Well there were some things that could have been explained better,
but I did note that the fighters and other spacecraft didn't use magic
plates to make them move through space.

   S:AAB had potential, unfortunately it appears that most of it will be
unrealized.  :-(

>>   "Those are not intelligent radio signals emminating from Barnard's
>>Star.  You are mistaken.  Have a nice day."
>
>Serve the computer. The computer is your friend. Trust no one. Keep you
>laser happy. Please report for termination.... ?

   Seriously, by now if the Vilani *really* existed, they would know
that there is a TL 8 world here, based upon the transmissions we
routinely throw out into space.  They would also know therefore that we
are balkanized and have only began a rudimentary exploration of our star
system.  Undoubtedly, some Vilani bureaucrat is responsible for
monitoring intercepted Earth transmissions and compiling reports based
on analysis of those transmissions to higher headquarters.  These
reports are filed appropriately--and forgotten.  This would explain why
the Vilani mistake the crew of the Starleaper for some minor race humans
from another part of the empire (or maybe that was the cover used by the
Terrans courtesy of their own intelligence people, who's reports on the
Vilani weren't lost in the bureaucrat shuffle...).

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:05:18 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: M:E21

John Watts writes:

>> "Those are not intelligent radio signals emminating from Barnard's
>>Star.  You are mistaken.  Have a nice day."
>
>Many people often mistake the planet Venus for a flying object.  You only
>saw the planet Venus through some rising swamp gas.
>
>I love this.  Of course, I'm still all for the Roswell crash being a Vilani
>scout ship too.  

   Problem: if the "aliens from Roswell" are Vilani scouts, then why
haven't we been frantically trying to develop space technology so that
we can meet and stop their friends before they get to Earth with
warships?

   I object to first contact in the late 40s not because it isn't
interesting, just kinda hard justify that's all.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:22:12 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: RE:Femicide

On 15 Aug 97 at 8:21, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 11:42 AM 8/15/97 GMT, Stephen wrote:
> 
> >    ObTrav; I've always wondered why there was so little representation of
> >Asian Cultures in Traveller, especially the Solomani.  We're only talking
> about
> >around half of all the Terran born Humans for the next century or two after
> >all.
> 
> FWIW, the few times I ran things on the Solomani Rim, I used the
> zaibatsu as a model for Solomani business practises, and had a
> number of modern Japanese/Asian Rim corporations survive into the
> 3I.

	In my 5656 Solomani campaign, I suggested that during the early 
Terran expansion the major spacefaring nations divided the near space 
into sectors, in the fashion of the American, Chinese and French Arms 
of 2300AD game:

	Coreward: USA, Canada
	Trailing: EU, Australia, Japan
	Rimward: Russia, Brazil, Pacific Rim countries
	Spinward: China, South Africa


/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:55:00 +2
From: "RFXn" <mlaakso@utu.fi>
Subject: S:AAB (was: Re: Mileu:E21)

On 16 Aug 97 at 0:09, Harold Hale wrote:

>    Evidently sour grapes because a Finnish squadron gets whacked
> in an episode of S:AAB...

	Wow! I thought I only missed one episode (the last one!).

	No, don't think it's sour grapes, most of the people know watched 
one or two episodes and then gave up on the series. IMO S:AAB is a 
showcase of how _not_ to  make a successful SF series. Ok, the 
effects were nice, and I loved the special ops episode where Hawks 
was sent behind enemy lines to sniper down a Chig officer. 

	Anyways, Star Trek (in all of its multi-tentacled, horrifying 
incarnations) and Babylon 5, and even Earth 2 (way too new age for 
me, though) are far more popular in Finland than S:AAB ever was.

/RFXn     mlaakso@utu.fi        aka. Matti Laakso
 -Phone: +358-(0)2-237 9928       YO-Kyla 19 A 11
 -IRC: RFXn                       FIN-20540  TURKU
 -Talk: RFXn@delenn.yok.utu.fi    Finland

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:08:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: FF&S2 Review (long)

	I have not posted an FF&S2 review before now because I am not 
really done digesting the wealth of information in this book, but given 
the concerns expressed by some, I thought I should post earlier rather 
than later.

Overview
	This is the best book yet produced for T4.  Let me say that again,
THIS IS THE BEST BOOK YET PRODUCED FOR T4.  The other contenders have
their good points, but simply cannot compare.  The T4 main rules book had
some definite problems, as its current revision indicates.  CSC has a
great feel to it but introduced the various canon conflicts we are all
familiar with and used a design system which was not only inconsistent
with the starship system, but was not really internally consistent either. 
Milieu Zero is a very popular and very rich campaign supplement, but was
not supported by proper maps and, at least for my taste, took too
pessimistic a view of the early Imperium.  Not only does FF&S2 avoid many
of the pitfalls that plagued earlier books, but it fixes a number of the
problems earlier books created. 
	Perhaps the most important fix is that starship and personal 
combat now uses the same system of ratings.  The damage and armor system 
described in the main T4 book is still fully in place and "canon."  The 
starship system has been converted through use of a simple multiplier into 
the personal combat stats.  No longer will you have to flip through 
various charts to figure out whether a plasma gun can penetrate the 
ship's hull, or whether the laser turret can hurt the APC.  Its all there.
	The books useability extends beyond the gearhead to the 
role-player.  Useful information about j-drives, the roles of various 
crew members, the kinds of food and comforts available on starships, and 
the workings of all sorts of technology are revealed in FF&S2.
	As an FF&S2 compatible QSDS system is in the works, soon everyone 
will be able to plug-n-play FF&S2 components.
	Much to my delight, the internal art is also very good.  There 
are _great_ drawings of battledress troops firing plasma weapons while a 
smoking former comrade lies next to them; a hot-shot strapped into his 
grav bike; grav tanks with point defense lasers crashing through an urban 
landscape and stomping infantry; some explorers atop their ATV on an 
alien world; etc.  Even the Chris Foss cover art is appropriate, as it 
shows a starship taking a number of laser hits.

Introduction
	The book begins with a discussion of the design process, 
technology assumptions, and an intuitive discussion of the units used in 
the book targeted at non-gearheads.  The differences between weight and 
mass, energy and power, speed and acceleration, are all explained.  
People looking for additional design resources are pointed to the IG web 
site with the statement that things like spreadsheets may be available in 
the future.

Section I
	The first section of the book presents a complete overview of 
everything that is necessary to design any of the vehicles discussed in 
the book.  These design sequences are detailed enough to be useful, but 
do not get bogged down in component technologies and whatnot.

1: Vehicle Design
   STARSHIPS
	The section on hulls contains two _great_ improvements.  First,
the return of asteroid hulls to Traveller!  Hazzah!  Second, the
Streamlining and Airframe rules are now fully integrated with the vehicle
and aircraft section.  Now if your CG goes out and you're trying to bring
in the Fat Trader on its airframe you'll know exactly how well it handles
compared to the TL-6 fighter on its tail! 
	Drives covers how much thrust you need and how to determine 
performance.  It also covers the "realistic" thrust equations so that 
low-tech designs with rocket boosters get a fair shake.  It also 
introduces explicit surface area requirements for the jump grid and 
includes a discussion of the "physics" of jump.  The need for hard 
numbers for jump grid has come up more than once on the TML when players 
want to know about disabling a ship's jump grid, or putting a j-drive in a 
previously non-jump ship that lacks a grid.
	Weapon mounts brings in a long overdue explanation of how 
turrets, bays, fixed mounts, and spinals work and how they differ.  It 
explains the arcs of fire and the volume required for pointing machinery 
for each of these types of weapon mounts.
	Miscellaneous Components is chock full of Role-Playing-Relevant 
material.  Descriptions of hangars, docking rings, and jettison bays are 
all provided so that refs can describe them and their capabilities to 
players.  The "Grapple Problem" described on this list has also been 
solved with "specialized" and "universal" grapples.  Specialized grapples 
only work on ships of the same configuration and displacement as the ship 
they were designed to carry.  Universal grapples can secure any ship of 
the max displacment or less.  Launch rates are covered and tasks for 
pilots and launch control officers allow emergency maneuvers.  The game 
effects of machine shops, electronics shops, and sick bays are covered.  
A cool description of a docking umbilical is included with a variety of 
hatch, cargo, cargo handling, and fuel tankage options.

*All of the above info is provided in just the first 17 pages.

	Next comes gravitic craft, lighter-than-air craft, aircraft, and 
ground vehicles.  The mechanics here are really simple and 
straightforward.  It takes just a couple of pages for each of these types 
of vehicles.
	
    GRAV VEHICLES
	Some changes have been made to how CG creates lift and thrust to 
limit the creation of 25G atomic pogo sticks and things of the sort 
(sorry Famille Spofulum) because they were really holes in the design 
system.

    LIGHTER THAN AIR VEHICLES
	The Ref who has players using a hot air baloon should look at 
these rules to get some better details.

    AIRCRAFT
	This is the vehicle type that I believe got the most attention.  
It is no longer the case that you can't design a Huey or F-16.  These 
design rules seem to work quite nicely. Maneuver points have also been 
introduced for things like dogfights.  Now a real measure of 
maneuverability quantifies the differences between the Red Baron and the 
F-22.

    GROUND VEHICLES
	I like the simple way these kinds of vehicles are designed.  I 
also like the fact that hover vehicles are now truly practical.  What I 
*don't* like is the fact that I can't find any mention of maximum ground 
pressure.  Unless this is fixed, its still possible to build 200-tonne 
tanks that would, in reality, sink into the dirt under their own weight.


2. Weapon Design

    SMALL ARMS
	Believe it or not I haven't designed any small arms yet.  I've 
seen some designs posted to the list, perhaps their creator can comment?  
One thing I did notice is that it's now possible to create receivers with 
advanced materials like crystal iron to reduce weight and increase 
performance.

    GAUSS WEAPONS
    WARHEADS
    CANNON
    MASS DRIVERS
    HIGH-ENERGY WEAPONS
    MISSILES
    	I haven't designed any battlefield (tac) missiles, but I've made 
a number of space missiles.  What I found is that you have to build them 
like little ships with their own power plants and heplar thrusters.  When 
I get the catalog complete I'll post them so that people can use them 
without designing them themselves.
    LASERS
    PAWS
	Two changes have been made here.  First, a design loop-hole was 
closed so that hi-tech PAW spinal mounts don't come out to be 100m long 
drinking straws.  Second, Circular PAWs have been introduced that allow 
smaller ships to carry big PAW guns if they are willing to pay the price 
in MCr and MW.  Circular PAWs also ressurect the CT bay PAW idea by 
allowing sub-spinal sized PAWs to have decent range.
    MESON GUNS

3: Defense Design

    ELECTROSTATIC ARMOR
    FORCE FIELDS
    MESON SCREENS
    NUCLEAR DAMPERS
	Yeah!  Damper screens are back!  The Damper turrets are still 
around for det-lasers, but contact nukes can be easily neutralized with 
the damper screen.
    REACTIVE ARMOR
    SAND CASTERS
	A _fantastic_ description of the physics of sandcaster sand.
    TRACTORS AND REPULSORS

Section II:  Components
4: Weapon Accessories

5: Hulls and Streamlining
	This section provides new materials, and new rules for making any 
size hull you like -- even 101.25 Tons.  It also covers the very cool new 
rules for stealth and hull coatings.

6: Thrust Agencies
	Everything's here -- heplar, t-plates, contragrav, solid rockets,
liquid rockets, hybrid rockets, Nuclear Thermal Rockets, Gas-Core Nuclear
Thermal Rockets, fusion rockets, ion drives, solar sails, ramscoops,
propellers, jets, AZH, and helicopter rotors.  The speed, acceleration,
glide ratio, and take-off/landing rolls can all be determined.
	These rules provide enormous flexibility and will be useful to 
_any_ Milieu.  The Interstellar Wars Milieu thats been discussed will 
benefit enormously from the ability to design effective but low-tech 
drives.  Imagine a Gas-Core Nuclear Thermal SDB going up against a 
t-plate equipped Vilani destroyer.

7: Electronics
	Another greatly improved section of the rules.  Remember how 
computers used to be a one-size-fits-all piece of equipment?  Now you can 
design a computer of any power rating for any TL.  Best of all, you can 
use the Computer Power stat to maintain compatibility with the excellent 
computer rules in CSC!
	Ever wonder what the difference between Dynamic Linked and 
Synaptic Linked controls was?  Now you know!  I think this provides just 
the right kind of detail for referees to add to the "look and feel" of 
the players' interaction with the starship.
	Communicators have been fixed so that directional and tight-beam 
radios can be created.

*******	By far the best thing about this section and, indeed, the entire 
*book is Bruce Macintosh's sensor rules.  These are not only realistic, 
*they are very playable.  Furthermore, the provide lots more ways for 
*players to become involved in spacecraft operations by managing their 
*sensor scan strategy, using the terrain of space to hide in, and 
*controlling their emmisions to stay hidden until just the right moment 
*to strike.  You've all seen these rules as posted to the TML, so I won't 
*repeat them.

8: Life Support and Accomodations

    CREW AND PASSENGERS
	Another section with tremendous role-playing resources.  A 
thorough description of crew duties, passenger requirements, 
workstations, and accomodations.  It also covers the best description of 
low berths and their operation that Traveller has had since JTAS and 
Travellers Digest covered them.

    LIFE SUPPORT
	Provides detailed information about what the various levels of 
life support mean in vivid enough terms to make it relevant to players.  
It also covers how far players can stretch the LS system on their ship 
and how they can make themselves more comfortable with additional galleys 
and everything from emergency rations to gourmet meals.  Food storage is 
explicitly added to ship design so that cautious players who want to 
horde food know how much space it takes up and how long it stays good.

    ARTIFICIAL GRAVITY
	In addition to standard g-comp we get spun hulls, spin capsules, 
and g-tanks for those pesky Terrans.

9: Power Systems
	The big news here is Scale Efficiences.  Now as PPs get bigger 
they also get more efficient (just like the RealWorld(tm)).  Its 
implemented in such a way as to not be a real feature rather than a 
headache.
	The only problem in this section is changing the fuel type of 
Fusion+ from water to heavy water.  This seems to me to be a needless and 
restrictive change.  Yes, it's more realistic, but Fusion+ is already so 
far off that it seems like no more than a cosmetic change.

DRAWBACKS
	There are very few things wrong with FF&S2.  It doesn't include 
water craft or robots for lack of space.  And, of course, it has errata.  
Every other book ever published for Trav had errata, and this one is no 
different.  Fortunately, the worst errata, the poorly formatted 
equations, is merely cosmetically annoying and does not affect the 
usefulness of the product.
	Yes, FF&S2 is complicated and likely will take a while to learn 
for new players and refs.  However, it does provide quite a bit of 
roleplaying-relevant information.  Even more importantly, it lays the 
firm technical foundation under which can be built much more simplified 
systems such as QSDS and the Roleplaying Space Combat System.

SUMMARY
	I REALLY CAN'T SAY ENOUGH GOOD THINGS ABOUT THIS SUPPLEMENT.  IT 
IS BETTER THOUGHT OUT, BETTER EXECUTED, AND OF HIGHER QUALITY THAN 
ANYTHING ELSE PRODUCED FOR T4.  IF YOU WANT TO ADD A RICH TECHNICAL 
BACKGROUND TO TRAVELLER'S RICH HISTORICAL BACKGROUND, FF&S2 IS AN 
INVALUABLE BOOK.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:36:34 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! (was: FF&S 2 spreadsheets, anyone?)

Jay Stranahan writes:

>Oh, cripes.... give me a break.... like anybody in here has any idea
>what all of this bullshittium technology is going to look like
>anyway.... Making it 'complex' in the name of 'reality' is simply
>anal-retentivness for its own sake. Militant attitudes like yours have
>crippled the game system to the point where nobody besides a gearhead
>game-geek loaded down with old TNE supplements can make use of it.

   As a gearhead game-geek loaded down with old TNE supplements, I'd
like to say that complexity and reality are good things in a game,
however, if things aren't presented in a consistent fashion (as was done
in TNE) and done so in a way so that they are comprehensible to the
average gamer (TNE didn't always do the best job at this), the game and
the game system are nothing but a tremendous waste of paper.  Those of
us who are hard-core TNEers recognised this fact and were working on
ways to make the TNE system more "approachable" (creating plug in
modules, "TNE Light") before GDW collapsed.

>Are you wholly impervious to logic? IG should have done this and IG
>should have explained that and IG should have done some other damned
>thing.... AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO IS INFURIATED AT THE FUNDAMENTAL
>TIME & MONEY-WASTING ABSURDITY OF A GAME SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR
>BETTER THAN A YEAR AND HAS SPAWNED THREE SHIP DESIGN SYSTEMS TWO OF
>WHICH CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT ARE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE AND IS UTTERLY
>USELESS & NONSENSICAL?

   Have you been reading any of *my* posts?

>If a G-hour is what you use to push a missile, how do I measure
>acceleration in a missile using G-hours? That is OK for figuring fuel
>CONSUMPTION, goddammit, but HOW DO I CATCH A SHIP WITH IT?????? That IS
>the idea behind a missile, isn't it? Where oh where in the $100+ worth
>of book that I have do I find out how to do this using G-hours?

   G-hour = 2 G turns

   As I recall the design sequence and without looking in the book...

   Were you using TNE, you would figure out how much volume of manuever
fuel you wanted to carry, calculate your fuel consumption rate in
kl/G-hour and divide.  Multiply the resulting number by 2 and that would
give you the number of G-turns of fuel you carry.  *Now*, if you have a
ship capable of 3G manuever, that means you can burn off up to 3 G-turns
of fuel per combat turn (30 minutes).  Once you burn off all your fuel,
you can do nothing but coast.

   Hope that helps a little...

>Oh, it will all be made right in the NEXT frigging book, will it? I
>should just keep buying their shit and cross my fingers and hope that
>the NEXT book will make it all make sense while the gearheads on the
>digest keep condescendingly telling me that it is IG's responsibility --
>not the gearheads writing and editing the books -- to conform to what
>the GEARHEAD AUTHORS come up with? And mine, as well, to comprehend
>their pages full of incomprehensibel formulae IF I WANT TO DO ANYTHING
>BEYOND PRODUCE A TL12 SHIP AT 5000 TONS MAX?

   Well it **is** the responsibility of IG to turn out a product that
people will like and understand, not the "gearhead authors".  If a
"gearhead author" tries to explain something he/she wrote in response to
your question, he/she does so as a courtesy, not necessarily out of
obligation.  IG is the one with the obligation to provide an
explanation.

>Since what we have is simply recycled TNE -- at the militant insistance
>of the gearheads on this digest, mind you -- and since IG is now going
>to have to resurrect some God-awfully complex space combat system to
>conform to it, and since TNE was stillborn on the market as soon as it
>came out and doomed the company that produced it to a premature
>bankruptcy, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THIS MIGHT INFLICT THE SAME FATE ON
>IMPERIUM GAMES?

   I only wish that MMT was simply recycled TNE--it would have saved IG
many months of development time.  As for TNE being "stillborn" and all
the rest, bullshit.  TNE is/was an award winning product that has since
had many of its features stolen/borrowed/serve as inspiration for many
other game systems.  TNE sold well for the early part of its run, only
to fall victim to the ills that killed GDW (ills that had nothing to do
with TNE).

>Do you expect anybody to buy a game system that is not only unplayable,
>but gets MORE unplayable with every publication? FUCK technology in the
>real world -- how about a playable GAME SYSTEM???!??

   A rhetorical statement I'm sure.

>Marc Miller... Jesus Christ, guy... if you are reading this, then you
>have GOT to understand that you have got to quit slavishly adhering to
>what the people on this digest are telling you. They have led you up the
>primrose path. T4 is fucked, broken, and incomprehensible to anyone NOT
>on the digest. Under their expert ministrations, you have produced a
>game system which will drive your up-&-coming market of gamers in their
>late teens away in droves. If you want IG to see another Christmas past
>this one, you must do three things and you must do them immediately:

   I would argue that what's wrong with MMT in its current incarnation
is a result of IG *not* listening to the people on this list.  True,
there is a lot of fluff and hot air around here, but there are also some
damn good ideas as well.

>1) Make Wildstar's QSDS the standard ship-building system. 

   Already proposed by somebody from this list.

>2) Revamp FF&S 2 so that all the results are presented in QSDS stats

   Probably someone who belongs to this list working on it.

>3) Offer the techies on this digest a small royalty to produce Excel
spreadsheets for both PC & Macs so that ordinary folks can design
individual FF&S 2 components, then plug them into QSDS.

   Already done by members of this list.

   Gee, if the members of this list are such screw ups, why is it that
they have already acted on most of your suggestions?

>In the event that you can't tell, I've pretty much given up on T4. FF&S
>2 was to be the magic bullet that would make everything OK, and I've been
>waiting for it for six months.

   Then you put *way* too much faith in something that wasn't really
intended for people like you to start with.

>I've got my entire Trav gaming group from high school waiting in the
>wings, waiting to hear when my military-oriented campaign is going to
>start up. I've got to tell them it ain't gonna happen, because I can't
>build anything and don't have an all-inclusive combat system to use it
>even if I did. You haven't lost one customer. You've lost five. Christ
>only knows how many time this scene is being repeated all over the U.S.

   It sounds to me like you would be much happier buying a copy of High
Guard (the revised edition) and Trillion Credit Squadron.  I would also
recommend Fighting Ships of the Imperium for design examples.  These
provided me with many hours of fun back in the mid-80s.

   Once you find that High Guard bores you, or you figure out where all
the design flaws are (sorry, I'm not telling  :-) ), you'll probably
want to move up to the basic Brilliant Lances system (this does not
require FF&S).  Assuming that you are willing to give MMT another chance
some day, download the latest version of QSDS from the Internet, find a
combat system that makes sense to you (one published by IG, or one
presented here) and have at it.

>The original Traveller came in thin, floppy, user-friendly booklets that
>were inexpensive to buy and easy to read for your average-bright teen on
>an allowance. It would have been great to go back to that level of
>simplicity, with a more complex design/combat system hovering in the
>background for those who wanted to make use of it.

   Amen.

>I'll get flamed out of the water for daring to air my myriad
>exasperations on this digest, but I literally no longer care..... 

   Not at all.  This forum is labelled "venting allowed".  Just watch
the TNE bashing.

>I quit.

   Then you have learned nothing.  Hopefully something drew you to
Traveller besides a neat looking cover and the promises of IG.  Find the
version that fits with your gaming style and the desires of your players
and have at it.  It doesn't have to be any particular version or any
particular setting.  The point is that it has to work for you or you get
so frustrated you end up posting stuff to a mailing list and not caring
who you offend...

Regards,

Harold

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End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1699
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